2006 game hints? [Archive]

Swampdude

22-10-2005, 10:57

Usually around this time of year someone hears a rumor then Gary saw something he shouldn't have, but won't say. Then speculation begins as Dave has a field day spreading his little bits of confusing hints. I always have fun trying to tie it all together, but last year some people nailed the pyramid guesses, triple plays and 3 team alliances.
Well Dave has dropped some bombs already and we haven't put them together yet. So lets!

Twirling Batons? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=406740&postcount=14)

No Fasteners? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=406928&postcount=23) PLEASE (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=411976&postcount=7) DON'T! (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=411987&postcount=11)

If you look at this poll results (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1261) you'll see dlavery only voted for the CMU cam, is it coming back?

Igus (http://www.igus.com/) has been added to the list of 2006 kit suppliers (http://www.usfirst.org/about/news/email/2005-09-29/FRC_2005_Supplier_Summit.htm). Their products primarily would support the need for extension/retraction. Which could be said for any game in the past, but at least more indicative of status quo.

Well that's all I've noticed lately, how about you? I'm sure a lot of you can take this pretty far down the road.

I'm going to speculate that we're picking up colored PVC batons (red, blue yellow) using the CMU and placing them somewhere a mechanism would need to extend to. But hopefully that no fastener thing is just to mess with us.

Revolverx7

22-10-2005, 16:51

Adam Richards

22-10-2005, 16:57

Wow, that whole "no threaded fasteners" thing could be potentialy dangerous. I know that welding isn't a very strong point on my team and pinning everything could become a huge hastle. Hopefuly this is just a scare tactic to make us all think of new inovative ideas before they enforce inovation on us by making such a drastic rule change.
Yet it could just as easily be a warning to us, and a security blanket for Mr. Lavery, so he can turn around after kickoff when the QA is flooded with questions as to why the rule exists, and just say "I told you so." Nevertheless, it would be an interesting year for many teams when they have to figure out how to get everything to fit together properly... :]

Petey

22-10-2005, 17:51

A little bird told me that coding this year would be different.

(Actually, the proof of this is available if you know where to look. No, I won't tell you where.)

So expect to see an interesting autonomous goals with easier coding methods.

--Petey

KathieK

22-10-2005, 19:11

Igus (http://www.igus.com/) has been added to the list of 2006 kit suppliers (http://www.usfirst.org/about/news/email/2005-09-29/FRC_2005_Supplier_Summit.htm). Their products primarily would support the need for extension/retraction. Which could be said for any game in the past, but at least more indicative of status quo.
The Igus Cable Chain RAGE used last year (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35739&highlight=cable+chain) worked well.

RoboMadi

22-10-2005, 23:44

I'm pretty sure about the CMU camera. I guess they will re-inroduce it. As far as the shape goes,..............hm...........Triangles . Cause if you look at the history of first, it was all about rectangles..........then squares....... and now Triangle.
I also heard a rumor about some water game..........but naaaa i don't think so.
So as of now......me and my programming team is really workin hard on autonomous and camera code.

sciguy125

23-10-2005, 01:00

Cause if you look at the history of first, it was all about rectangles..........then squares....... and now Triangle.
That's what they want you to think... That way, they can throw you a curve ball one year and you'd never expect it. I have a good feeling about the dodecagon this year.

teamtestbot

23-10-2005, 09:42

Then there was the reply about the autonomous shopping cart. It seems somewhat inline - collecting objects?

Though I'm waiting for the official hint...speculation in the mean time is fun though.

artdutra04

23-10-2005, 10:35

rees2001

23-10-2005, 12:34

Dave, isn't it about time for the annual?

http://skydancersworldwide.com/gallery/airdancers_gallery.asp

http://www.advertisingballoons.com/auto-plane-marine.htm

RoboMadi

23-10-2005, 12:38

Whhaaaaat? Where did these guys (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm) come from?!? :p

WOW.................i'm amazed

ahecht

23-10-2005, 13:10

Whhaaaaat? Where did these guys (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm) come from?!? :p

Someone seems to have confused FRC and Robovation.

artdutra04

23-10-2005, 13:35

Someone seems to have confused FRC and Robovation.
According to their website, the CoreChart software is able to program Vex, the mini-controller, and the full-size controller. In this document (http://www.elabtronics.com/CorechartFR_FRC_Example_Manual.pdf) they explain exactly how to program the full-size FRC controller with their software.

The CoreChart software looks like cool stuff for everyone (like me) who isn't a guru at line-coding programming. http://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/images/smilies/4.gif Finally, teams may be able to get autonomous working before ship date!

Petey

23-10-2005, 16:51

Whhaaaaat? Where did these guys (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm) come from?!? :p

:D

Someone seems to have confused FRC and Robovation.

Or did they?

The CoreChart software looks like cool stuff for everyone (like me) who isn't a guru at line-coding programming. http://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/images/smilies/4.gif Finally, teams may be able to get autonomous working before ship date!

Exactly.

Man, this is going to piss off so many of the hard core command line people. Egalitarian code! What nonsense!

--Petey

Michael Hill

23-10-2005, 18:42

Igus also has bearings, like spherical bearings and linear bearings. FIRST may just pick them up just for that.

Rickertsen2

23-10-2005, 22:15

I think yall are over-analyzing Dave's recent posts. I don't think they have ANYTHING to do with the game. In any case,

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

About what time is it usually given out? I think i remember viewing CD threads about it last year on my grandmother's computer which probably indicates around thanksgiving.

Bharat Nain

23-10-2005, 22:26

I think yall are over-analyzing Dave's recent posts. I don't think they have ANYTHING to do with the game. In any case,

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I shall second that
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

23-10-2005, 22:38

A little birdy told me that FIRST is testing two minute autonomous modes right this very moment. This makes sense, seeing how FIRST is putting more and more emphasis on a stronger autonomous mode.

As far as a programming GUI is concerned, if you want to use it: go ahead. It's the same as the scripting language that was provided this year. Sure, it makes some things easier, but I know it can't be nearly as powerful as a smart programmer. A program will never replace good old fashioned hand coding.

Pat Fairbank

23-10-2005, 22:46

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

About what time is it usually given out? I think i remember viewing CD threads about it last year on my grandmother's computer which probably indicates around thanksgiving.
Actually, it's not usually given out 'till around New Year's... :(
I guess we'll just have to be patient...

JamesBrown

23-10-2005, 22:51

I am sure many of you will be disappointed by the performance of this type of programming software, it wont let you use the FRC controller to its fullest extent.

As for two minute autonomous modes, I don't think first will go there soon, I believe that part of FIRST is te interaction between people, robots, as well as people and their robots. A 2 minute autonomous would take away from this interaction, unless of course they made matches much longer which would lead to an entire redesign of the competition structure. This seems like far to drastic of a step right now.

How ever a fully autonomous match would be alot of fun and a huge challange perhapse it would be better offered as a sub competiton or even as an event at off season competitions. With the disappointing performances of many teams this year in auton i don't see FIRST immersing us to that extent just yet.

Rickertsen2

23-10-2005, 23:16

Actually, it's not usually given out 'till around New Year's... :(
I guess we'll just have to be patient...

I suppose i would have been at my grandmother's house then too

Winged Globe

23-10-2005, 23:42

As for two minute autonomous modes, I don't think first will go there soon, I believe that part of FIRST is te interaction between people, robots, as well as people and their robots. A 2 minute autonomous would take away from this interaction, unless of course they made matches much longer which would lead to an entire redesign of the competition structure. This seems like far to drastic of a step right now.

What's to stop them from doing a Vex-style parallel autonomous and human-controlled matches, or where autonomous scoring is averaged with human-controlled scoring in the same match? The Vex setup seems to be FIRST's way of saying "PROGRAM A %$#@! AUTONOMOUS MODE ALREADY!" The December Vex competition may be a guinea pig of such a scoring system. I wouldn't be surprised if a semi-decent autonomous suddenly becomes a true linchpin in FRC due to how scores will be calculated. Especially if FRC gets a graphical programming interface like Vex and FLL (no more excuses, for real?).

Petey

23-10-2005, 23:50

How ever a fully autonomous match would be alot of fun and a huge challange perhapse it would be better offered as a sub competiton or even as an event at off season competitions. With the disappointing performances of many teams this year in auton i don't see FIRST immersing us to that extent just yet.

Please.

A fully autonomous match, while certainly a testament to a team's technological dexterity, would be incredibly boring.

We need more human player interaction.

--Petey

Rickertsen2

23-10-2005, 23:54

I really hope that FIRST doesn't include the afore-linked programming GUI in the kit. It doesn't teach anybody any real world skills whatsoever. I would be really disappointed.

Bharat Nain

23-10-2005, 23:58

I really hope that FIRST doesn't include the afore-linked programming GUI in the kit. It doesn't teach anybody any real world skills whatsoever. I would be really disappointed.
I would be disappointed too because I believe hard core coding is the way to go. On the other hand, at every regional I help out atleast 4 other teams program their robot. So I guess such software would be gold to them and it would help raise the level of competition on the field. A robot is not complete if it is not programmed well.

phrontist

24-10-2005, 00:29

Man, this is going to piss off so many of the hard core command line people. Egalitarian code! What nonsense!

Hello, I'm from the Hard Core Command Line People Anti-Defamation League!

This is all just a big misunderstanding Mr. Petey. You see, we have no problem whatsoever with the unwashed masses playing with their silly GUIs, we just want to make sure no one talks of getting rid of our precious direct-access compilers.

Oh, and this is not "hardcore" by any stretch of the imagination. FRC programming is rarely low-level enough that you have to truly understand the hardware, nor is it abstract enough that you're working on a massive system with hundreds of unit-tests between you and a final product.

This post was written in vi and uploaded via a TCP/IP stack I whipped up on the fly by waving magnets around my harddrive with amazing precision. The vi part was much harder.

phrontist

24-10-2005, 00:34

Oh, and it's not a robot unless it's autonomus. It's a large electro-mechanical contraption. Or an oversized RC car. Not a robot. Where do you draw the line of what constitutes "robothood" if you start including human controlled creations?

Petey

24-10-2005, 00:37

Hello, I'm from the Hard Core Command Line People Anti-Defamation League!

This is all just a big misunderstanding Mr. Petey. You see, we have no problem whatsoever with the unwashed masses playing with their silly GUIs, we just want to make sure no one talks of getting rid of our precious direct-access compilers.

*grins*

Dude, I worked at an ISP. It's not like I have a problem with command liners. I mean, I hate vi, but what non-sadist doesn't?

I agree.

Oh, and this is not "hardcore" by any stretch of the imagination. FRC programming is rarely low-level enough that you have to truly understand the hardware, nor is it abstract enough that you're working on a massive system with hundreds of unit-tests between you and a final product.

Ok.

This post was written in vi and uploaded via a TCP/IP stack I whipped up on the fly by waving magnets around my harddrive with amazing precision. The vi part was much harder.

AAAARGH VI $@#$@#$@#$@#.

What is funny is that I didn't read this before I made my vi taunt above.

I marvel at your patience.

--Petey

Winged Globe

24-10-2005, 00:38

It's the same as the scripting language that was provided this year.

I really hope that FIRST doesn't include the afore-linked programming GUI in the kit. It doesn't teach anybody any real world skills whatsoever. I would be really disappointed.

Wait... what?? Looking at the example for FRC controllers, it just looks like all the code thrown into a flow-chart interface (a graphical tool used in real computer science classes I've seen to teach the core logic/reasoning/organizing ANYONE needs in order to program). This isn't just script code like "turn left for blah seconds"--there seems to be a direct correlation between what the flow-chart displays and what the actual code will be (if count Bit 7 ON yes--> SET rc_dig_out16 ON, etc. etc.). It looks like you can comment directly into the flow-chart boxes to describe what is going on, too.

This means that the only difference between the flow-chart and actual code may be purely formating in nature, in which case, how does this have no correlation to the real world? Heck, it doesn't even look like pseudo-code; you have to use real variable names, real subroutine names, real function calls! And once a new programmer feels comfortable with the logic, *CLICK* and they see the real code! And it looks almost exactly like what they did with the flow-chart! "Wow! Maybe this programming stuff isn't so bad! I can do this..."

I can understand the nerd attachment to CLI's and aversion of all things graphical, but if the examples show the actual product delivered (and if FIRST/Kevin Watson brings the scripts back in addition to this interface, by all means, but that isn't this specific program), this is the most code-like graphical interface I've seen. I'm almost afraid that some newbie programmers will still be puzzled by it, as it isn't as graphical and perhaps as intuitive as Lego's interface or even Robolab. I really don't see what the big pout is all about. This seems to head in the right direction to get new programmers into the fold, while allowing novice programmers to transition and advanced programmers to keep hacking at their leisure.

Petey

24-10-2005, 00:42

Exactly.

The only people who I know who are really dismayed are some people who are hard-core programmers who are pouting that now n00bs will be able to do their stuff too.

However, this leaves room for the hardcore hackers to build an easy base and then go on from there, right?

And it *should* help get n00bs into the program, which is always good, especially for rookie teams.

--Petey

artdutra04

24-10-2005, 15:25

I would be disappointed too because I believe hard core coding is the way to go.
As great as hard core command line programming is, it is not for everyone. If you can understand it - you have a major advantage. But not everyone can easily understand that stuff. That is why most modern computers use use a GUI instead of command line to access programs. Apple realized that in the 1980s, that in order for computers to be bought by the masses, they had to be easy to use. They figured that ordinary people didn't care if their OS took up more memory space. Sure, the GUI isn't as powerful or as efficient as command line can be, but the GUI's are more user friendly - which means more people can use them.

Another reason why a GUI-based application for programming the FRC robots is greatly needed is that everyone learns and comprehends things differently. Some people can be geniuses, but if you lectured them all day, they wouldn't remember a thing. Other people need to be able to "see" things to comprehend them. I have to be able to "see" things to comprehend them, which is why I am great at the mechanical end of things, because I can "see" all the parts in my head and "see" how they move and interact. EasyC for Vex comes very easy to me, because I can look at the icons and "see" exactly what it does.

Right now, lets consider everyone's robot. How many this year had noteworthy autonomous programs? Not a whole lot, which is why GUI-based software for programming robots is such a great idea. This helps to balance the playing field. Now, even though it may not be as powerful, the average sophistication of the programming will dramatically increase, because now a wider variety of people can use this software.

Because of all this, for the 2006 game - expect to see a harder, longer, and more sophisticated autonomous mode with multiple tasks of varying difficulty levels.

dlavery

24-10-2005, 17:18

I shall second that
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You already have it.

-dave

phrontist

24-10-2005, 17:40

You already have it.

-dave

YESSSSSSSS!!!

Okay guys, start paging through his post history...

663.keith

24-10-2005, 18:42

"the fox is in the hen house" was posted a while ago as a Dave hint, as well as "think of hovercraft's and the English Channel"

hmmmmm :confused:

Petey

24-10-2005, 18:49

YESSSSSSSS!!!

Okay guys, start paging through his post history...

Let's see.

Guy: Tell me why we are doing this again?
Girl: Because Billfred dropped a hint about making a robot that can change lightbulbs. I figured that we should take the hint, since he is on the GDC and he should know.

Robot with fine motor skills?

Not at all. An amazing amount can be done with welding, brazing, housed joints, polymer-based adhesives, rivets, spring clips, e-rings, Dutchman pins, proper interference fits, pocket hole joinery, soldering, collaring, swaging, pinned tenon joints, etc. etc. etc. There are LOTS of ways to connect one item to another without using the bolt/washer/nut answer that almost everyone defaults to - and without resorting to cheap-looking tape. :)

I really like the idea of a rule that will really push teams about of their "comfort zone" and into an area where they have to think about ways to solve problems by other than the obvious solution.

-dave

[/me gets off hobby horse]

Lowered budget?

Very cool! Now we can get a transparent yttrium oxide ceramic dome to cover the CMUcam so it doesn't get trashed when our robot spins out of control again (everyone that went to IRI remembers our "death spiral dance"). But I wonder if it will fit within the robot parts budget...

-dave

Uh...raised budget?

So far, everyone is takling their personal pet peeve and trying to find a way to make the rule associated with a certain topic/application/mechanism less restrictive. That is fine, and everyone is certainly entitled to riding their own hobby horse. So I will hop on mine. I think that folks are headed in the wrong direction. I think that we should look for potential rules that can be made MORE restrictive, and scale back the "almost anything goes" philosophy that has become associated with the robot construction rules over the past several years. I believe that this philosophy has lead to a lot less true creativity and innovation in the robots, as teams have just gone out and bought solutions to design problems rather than creating solutions from a kit part that was never intended to do the job for which it would now be used. I would be all in favor of adding more restrictions back in to the robot construction rules to bring back some of the real creativity that every team displayed during the early years of FIRST.

For example, what about a rule that says "no threaded fasteners of any type are permitted on the robot."* If it were up to me, I would add a rule like that. Oh, wait, it is... :D

-dave

* you think I am joking, don't you? hehhehheh

....Lowered budget????

I'm worried about the water game after this little exchange, specifically because of Dave's selective editing (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=409865&postcount=12):
There have always been problems with using mecanum for FIRST: firstly the programming and control is tricky, and making the wheel itself is rather anoying. I for one will hopefully be having a mecanum robot this year, so I guess I shouldn't be complaining. I chose to go this path... but anyway, this article is a very interesting one. I appreciate how they push the design of the mecanum wheel to its limit in efficiency. However, I think the most I would ever consider is putting pneumatic locks on the rollers to improve forward efficiency.

Thanks for posting this article.

Oh? Why?

-dave

Dave, don't be mean to people who haven't already read the technical specs for this year's water game. It's not our fault we aren't on the game design committee. :rolleyes:

Admittedly, a bit tongue-in-cheek. But not entirely. There are multiple layers of real questions embedded in that simple little two-word interrogatory. Not all questions, and not all data, are obvious.

-dave

p.s. if you reacted quickly like some and think that the original question means "hey, don't use Mechanum wheels this year" then you haven't looked deep enough.

Hmmm. Funny you should mention that. Somebody once told me that Tammy Trimble used to be a majorette... http://www.americanbaton.com/sb2.jpg

-dave

I went back through mid-August on these posts.

So it looks like we've either got
A) A drastically lowered budget with a restricted supply list that requires more creative ingenuity a-la Apollo 13
or
B)A raised budget that at least allows space age materials so we can do some sort of aquatic game.

And either A) or B) will invovle picking up sticks, which is very difficult to do, when you think about it. Fine motor skills on the robot.

Personally, I'm predicting A. I don't think the organization has got the cojones for aquatic robotic warfare yet.

--Petey

RoboMadi

24-10-2005, 18:57

Personally, I'm predicting A. I don't think the organization has got the cojones for aquatic robotic warfare yet.

--Petey
gosh.....what a great explanation. I think you're right..........
~Imad

Andrew Blair

24-10-2005, 20:28

Michael Hill

24-10-2005, 22:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Oh? Why?

-dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Richards
Dave, don't be mean to people who haven't already read the technical specs for this year's water game. It's not our fault we aren't on the game design committee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Admittedly, a bit tongue-in-cheek. But not entirely. There are multiple layers of real questions embedded in that simple little two-word interrogatory. Not all questions, and not all data, are obvious.

-dave

p.s. if you reacted quickly like some and think that the original question means "hey, don't use Mechanum wheels this year" then you haven't looked deep enough.

-------------------------------------------------
Study the two words nice and close..."Oh, Why" Say them together quickly. ohwhy (think phonotically). OI!

Rick TYler

24-10-2005, 23:43

Usually around this time of year someone hears a rumor (...)

No Fasteners?

Rick walks in, blows the dust off his keyboard. "Is this thing on? Hello?"

New season. First post.

As to "no fasteners," I have a gallon of epoxy, and I'm not afraid to spread it.

I think severely restricting construction budgets would be great for the sport. There is really no way for the $6,500 "have nots" to compete with the $50,000 "haves."

Ian Curtis

25-10-2005, 06:41

Robot with fine motor skills?

Nope! There is a joke laying around here somewheres which Billfred had something to do with, that says "How many FIRSTERS does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" The answer is "It doesn't matter, it'll still take six weeks." Therefore Dave is confirming that we will again have six weeks.

Squirrelrock

25-10-2005, 12:18

Dave, If you're going to outlaw all basic fasteners, then at least do it right and get rid of the velcro too. :)

jdiwnab

25-10-2005, 12:48

OH! you reminded me of a very old hint.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319597
As seen in Squirrelrock's sig.
Aaacckkk! Guurrkkk! Sssnorrrrkkkkk! Brain ... explode ... will. AAAArrrrggghhh!! Must ... not ... think ... about ... 2007 ... yet. Uuurrgghh!!! Still ... have .... to ... resolve ... how ... to ... pack ... parachutes ... for ... 2006 ... Ooorrrkkggnn!!

Squirrelrock

25-10-2005, 12:59

OH! you reminded me of a very old hint.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319597
As seen in Squirrelrock's sig.

If you really want to take that one seriously, go right ahead. I am discarding it...

...although I'll probably feel really stupid about it when the game comes out :rolleyes:

Petey

25-10-2005, 15:16

Rickertsen2

25-10-2005, 16:45

I won't repost this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=413299&postcount=52), but I keep on thinking that baton thing Dave posted in the other thread is part of this year's game.

--Petey
I agree:
*its very random and cryptic.
*if you will remember, dave has a history of giving away the game hints early on CD
*the pic looks to be in dave's ani-style

wow... baton shaped objects... that would be a nightmare. Now assuming that this is the hint, i do not think it would be quite that obvious. Grrr. Once again we have a hint involving an object and a person. Then again, the stairway to heaven hint was pretty easy so this might be too.

----- edit ------
scratch the pic being something dave made. The pic is hosted on http://www.americanbaton.com/

---- edit -------
google doesn't seem to know alot about Tammy Trimble
http://www.ctr.vt.edu/index.cfm?fuseaction=DisplayResearchPersonnelInfo&PersonID=879
and a post by a Tammy Trimble on a nudist forum were the only things i turned up

Wetzel

25-10-2005, 17:09

The parts flowchart will be changed for 2006.
Gerbils will remain verboten.

Wetzel

John Gutmann

25-10-2005, 22:22

I agree:
*its very random and cryptic.
*if you will remember, dave has a history of giving away the game hints early on CD
*the pic looks to be in dave's ani-style

wow... baton shaped objects... that would be a nightmare. Now assuming that this is the hint, i do not think it would be quite that obvious. Grrr. Once again we have a hint involving an object and a person. Then again, the stairway to heaven hint was pretty easy so this might be too.

I don't think they would be too hard to maneuver them. There is less edges and less volume to handel.

A ball was a large amount of volume. Same with the rubbermaid containers.

The tetra were skeltons of a shape but if you grabbed on edge it wouldn't b balanced so you had to counter act its weight some how.

I think a baton would be wonderful because it is annoying how people say there is a pattern with the whole triangle circle square thing, because if you think about it what other simple shape is there that they could use easily?

phrontist

26-10-2005, 09:15

I can't believe Lavery would just come out and post an image of a game object like that, it's not nearly subtle enough.

Or is that what he wants us to think? :D

Ken Loyd

26-10-2005, 11:22

I can't believe Lavery would just come out and post an image of a game object like that, it's not nearly subtle enough.

Or is that what he wants us to think? :D

When I encounter Dave at competitions and meetings, I find him to be kind, helpful, almost too nice.

When I read his hints, I find him to be EVIL!

Ken

KenWittlief

26-10-2005, 12:59

maybe we will be the robots?

all human players?

remotely controlled?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_hi_te/remote_control_for_humans;_ylt=AqZen9T1u_Giirhc3kr eGYdj24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

MikeDubreuil

26-10-2005, 15:02

I just spayed some amazing information while taking a trip to New Hampshire...

While watching the game committee in their secret Manch-Vegas game design warehouse I witnessed them opening a window. Yes, I do believe the playing field will be surrounded by normal air from the Earth's atmosphere. My sources tell me this gas is mix of Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon and Carbon Dioxide. Therefore, this year's safety rules will not require human players to wear a breathing apparatus.

Wetzel

26-10-2005, 15:09

I just spayed some amazing information while taking a trip to New Hampshire...
Thats great if you want to limit the information population, but I think we would all like to get some more information.

Wetzel

Henry_Mareck

30-10-2005, 10:56

whats a CMU cam :confused: ??

is that the camera (assuming cam means camera?) that we got in the kit last year and was hard to use?

Petey

30-10-2005, 11:19

whats a CMU cam :confused: ??

is that the camera (assuming cam means camera?) that we got in the kit last year and was hard to use?

*activates RTCW voice*

Affirmative.

*deactivates*

--Petey

Astronouth7303

30-10-2005, 16:02

Andrew Blair

30-10-2005, 17:50

I'm not real familar with the style of Dave and JVN. I don't want to kill the speculations, but would they just fool around this close to build season, or are these things actually hints? What do people think? :confused:

Karthik

30-10-2005, 20:00

Anyone listening to FIRSTcast (http://podcast.openfirst.org/)? About half-way through the 3rd episode, JVN mentions that he's working on a water-proof speed controller. (Listen to it for more detail.) I'd call this a pretty big hint.

I'm not real familar with the style of Dave and JVN. I don't want to kill the speculations, but would they just fool around this close to build season, or are these things actually hints? What do people think? :confused:

I've never known JVN to be sarcastic or joke around...

NiagaraFIRST.org is turning in our lease on our normal practice facility, and renting an indoor swimming pool in a direct response to the JVN interview...

dlavery

30-10-2005, 20:14

I've never known JVN to be sarcastic or joke around...

Me neither. I have found that he has absolutely no sense of humor at all.

-dave

:rolleyes:

Henry_Mareck

30-10-2005, 20:21

i seriously doubt there will be a 100% water game this year.
However, there may be an extra "area" or something with special points for being able to go across a moat of some sort, like hanging in 2004 or there could be extra scoring thingies on the other side. while im at it, maybe there will be floating batons in the moat as well as batons on the bottom :eek: :yikes: woohoo?).
This way, experienced teams could have some fun building an amphibious robot :D , and the rookie teams could compete and not have to worry about submerging thousands of dollars of electronics.
on a second note:
Did FIRST start in 1996? If so, water would be an amazing 10 year aniversary.
(Im guessing 1996 becuase thats the earliest "rookie year" i have seen on CD)

scitobor 617

30-10-2005, 20:33

Did FIRST start in 1996? If so, water would be an amazing 10 year aniversary.
(Im guessing 1996 becuase thats the earliest "rookie year" i have seen on CD)

No, I think it started in 1992.

Madison

30-10-2005, 20:41

FIRST was founded in 1989. The FIRST Robotics Competition began in 1992.

Henry_Mareck

31-10-2005, 00:23

well there goes the second half of my theory
the first half is still good, right?

Freddy Schurr

31-10-2005, 00:37

Anybody hear any good rumors lately?

I heard it was going to be completely autonomous this year.

YeaH RigHT!!!!

EricH

31-10-2005, 13:07

No, I think it started in 1992.
10th Nationals was in 2001 (I think). Therefore, 2006 will be the fifteenth nationals.

KenWittlief

31-10-2005, 13:09

FIRST was founded in 1989. The FIRST Robotics Competition began in 1992.

Well thats weird!

what did FIRST do from 1989 to 1992, if there were no competitions ?!

Madison

31-10-2005, 14:03

Well thats weird!

what did FIRST do from 1989 to 1992, if there were no competitions ?!

I believe at that early stage, FIRST Place in Manchester was all there was to the organization. They hold educational programs throughout the year.

Swampdude

31-10-2005, 14:44

Here's a little PM bantering between Dave and I:

Dave: You forgot at least one :) ( http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=377929&postcount=24)

Me: meh, perhaps I give you more credit than that - but I don't think you lack that much creativity.... Besides what would I do with this giant crate of batons I just ordered?

Dave: Maybe play a big game of "Pick Up sticks"???

Me: See, I knew you'd think of something. I never could twirl the darn things, and I wouldn't look right in a sparkly leotard. :yikes:

Dave: Oh wow, there is a mental image I didn't need! :ahh:

So there is it, pick up sticks! But no metal on the robot!?!?!!

I seriously doubt FIRST will have anyone hosting a FIRST competition risk a big spill of water on their gym floors etc. So stop with the water guesses people!

Looks like the only thing learned here was the programming. Thanks for that, I like it.

EricH

31-10-2005, 14:50

But no metal on the robot!?!?!!
In that case, I know what the human player's job is: He is inside the wooden robot(or plastic or whatever) manually operating everything. The drivers are pushing the robot and the coach is yelling at them across the field. :D

dlavery

31-10-2005, 15:05

Looks like the only thing learned here was the programming. Thanks for that, I like it.

We also learned we don't want to see you in a sparkly leotard! :ahh:

-dave

Anthony

31-10-2005, 15:42

hmmmm, so does this mean we will have a new rule restricting scantily clad robots?

Matt Leese

31-10-2005, 15:50

Well thats weird!

what did FIRST do from 1989 to 1992, if there were no competitions ?!
I've also heard mentioned that there was a trial competition where they tried out the premise of FIRST. That's about the end of my knowledge of it however.

Matt

Ian Curtis

31-10-2005, 21:21

Hmm, dave recently has shown an upward trend in posting in the chit-chat area of the forum especially in the "this or that" thread. I have a feeling this is a subtle game hint. Two things to do this year instead of 1 (capping)?

Lil' Lavery

01-11-2005, 09:44

I heard something about bowling pins and the color orange.... :rolleyes:

artdutra04

01-11-2005, 14:58

In that case, I know what the human player's job is: He is inside the wooden robot(or plastic or whatever) manually operating everything. The drivers are pushing the robot and the coach is yelling at them across the field. :D
That kind of sounds like the "I,D'oh-Bot" from The Simpsons....

http://img325.imageshack.us/img325/1120/fabf042xu.jpg (http://www.lardlad.com/assets/episodes/season15/fabf04.jpg)

EricH

01-11-2005, 15:27

You mean nobody else has picked up on the hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40132) about next year's game being called "Whack the Billfred"? Dave just gave it away in post #18 (after Billfred figured it out in the post just before)!

artdutra04

01-11-2005, 17:36

Whoa!!!!!! :eek:

What's this?

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/4600/ifivictordl112ah.jpg (http://www.ifirobotics.com)

Henry_Mareck

01-11-2005, 18:30

thats really, really cool
where is that image from?

*edit*
nevermind, you can click on it!

Petey

01-11-2005, 18:56

thats really, really cool
where is that image from?

*edit*
nevermind, you can click on it!

Pay it no mind. It's a hoax.

It may link to ifirobotics, but it's hosted at imageshack.com

FIRST wouldn't italicize FIRST on an image like that, anyway. And there's no reference to "Nautilus" nor "underwater" anywhere on the ifirobotics.com site.

Had me fooled for a second, though. I will give you that.

--Petey

Andrew Blair

01-11-2005, 18:59

Haha, why is there a blade missing on "waterproof fan"? :D

I guess Petey beat me to it, but you wouldn't believe how dumb I felt after looking through ifi for 2 or three minutes.

Alexa Stott

01-11-2005, 20:43

In that case, I know what the human player's job is: He is inside the wooden robot(or plastic or whatever) manually operating everything. The drivers are pushing the robot and the coach is yelling at them across the field. :D

[monty python] Then, the human player jumps out of the robot, taking the opposition completely by surprise! [/monty python]
:D

Denalin Fusion

01-11-2005, 21:26

You'd think that having Dave Lavery as one of your team's key mentors would give you some slight advantage, or perhaps some hints. Hah, that's a good one!

artdutra04

02-11-2005, 09:49

Pay it no mind. It's a hoax.

It may link to ifirobotics, but it's hosted at imageshack.com

FIRST wouldn't italicize FIRST on an image like that, anyway. And there's no reference to "Nautilus" nor "underwater" anywhere on the ifirobotics.com site.

Had me fooled for a second, though. I will give you that.

--Petey
It was a meant to be funny April November Fool's Day joke. ;) (If that holiday even exists... )

As for the source of the picture, I was bored in study hall in school yesterday while listening to the FIRSTcast episode where JVN was talking about "designing a waterproof speed controller", so I was inspired to make the picture. If there really was a waterproof speed controller, I don't think that it would have a fan on it. I thought the fan would give it away...

Oh well, everyone needs a good joke every so often. :)

Ian Curtis

06-11-2005, 20:24

In response to this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=415416&postcount=5) post by Mr. Lavery.

Only two acronyms show up in that paragraph, one being "GDC" and the other being "MST" both being used fictionally. Now "GDC" also stands for "Game Design Commitee". So using inductive reasoning I'm assujming that MST is either the acronym for the object we must manipulate or the acronym of the name of the game.

New and Pressing!
A search for MST reveals that it is also an acronym for microscrewcap tubes, or tubes used in science labs. This is way to blatant to be a game object, isn't it?
http://www.evergreensci.com/lh/mst.htm

Swampdude

06-11-2005, 20:51

Related to my guess in my first post of this thread, I found this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=336947&postcount=43) from the 2006 game post early this year. This is an interesting link because team 116 is none other that Daves team. ;)

draptou

07-11-2005, 15:36

I was at the convention centre in Toronto, and someone at a robotics booth who sets up the fields said a step may be involved.

Alex Burman

07-11-2005, 20:06

hey i just found something on Google
http://www.team116.org/2000/_doc/tmup1.pdf

apparently Tammy is/was in charge of kits for first up till at least 2001 that published on line that i can find so far.

Rickertsen2

07-11-2005, 20:40

Petey

07-11-2005, 20:43

Wait, what is this?

Is this an old game (2000 was before I came into FIRST.)

--Petey

ahecht

07-11-2005, 21:40

apparently Tammy is/was in charge of kits for first up till at least 2001 that published on line that i can find so far.

I did some more googling, and it looks like you're right.

BTW, you can find most of the old rules at http://www.first-a-holics.com/competitions/

Ken Loyd

08-11-2005, 09:42

While attending the Denver Regional a thought (perhaps the first in sometime) was buried deep in my brain. It recently surfaced. This could be the year for "Robots on Ice"! This could explain the waterproof items and a baton does looks somewhat like a hockey stick. You always see a picture of Dave in a hooded parka. There is a rumor out west that teams 60 & 254 are working on studded snow tires. Thank goodness we have Wayne G. in Phoenix.

Ken

EricH

08-11-2005, 17:43

Time to start eliminating hints.

First one out: No metal on robots. Why? A robot is the robot controller and anything attached to it, according to the 2005 rules. The controller has metal, therefore it can't be used, therefore you can't have a robot that is legal.
Second one out: No threaded fasteners. Again, you need those to attach the controller.
Third one out: Anything having to do with water. See the water game threads for reasons.

Anyone else want to remove some dummy hints?

Madison

08-11-2005, 17:56

We've often attached our controller with cable ties. :)

Andrew Blair

08-11-2005, 18:04

We've often attached our controller with cable ties. :)

Yes, but the other thing supporting this are other electronics. Namely, speed controllers, circuit panels, and the brain. (The brain's back is held on by little black screws. No, I'm not obsessive compulsive, but we did consider taking one apart once. Long story. :o )

P.S.- We have also. I guess we've held everything at some point on a robot with zip ties. :D

Zero-Bee

08-11-2005, 20:52

I have yet to hear anything along the bounds of reason when it comes to rumors, but we need to pool every rumor we know into a single post, and fiqure it out from there.

Jay Trzaskos

08-11-2005, 22:16

NO !

Yeah, what Stu said.

Wait a minute, did Dave just say something flat-out? Like something that didn't cryptically refer to a hint that will still not make any sense whatsoever four weeks into build?

Of course, it's so simple... Dave's just copying what Stu said!! Next year we will have 2 of the exact same setups on each side of the field, whichever alliance is Red goes first... they have 30 seconds to do a task and then the Blue alliance must do the exact same task on their side of the field in the same order. They then have the next 30 seconds to complete another task. Then the Red alliance goes again, copying what Blue did in theirs second 30 seconds. after that comes autonomous... using only sensors :ahh: !!!

^ taken from the "This Year We Need Instant Replay" thread

JT

Birdman1011395

09-11-2005, 23:50

Don't know about other regionals (and I don't believe this has been brought up before), but Dave Lavery at the VCU regional said something along the lines of "It's snowing outside, and it gives me some ideas". Or something to that effect and made mention of how he got an idea from the Richmond Science Museum for 2005's competition.

If one takes this at face vaulue a power based object could be used. Maybe a synthetic snow covers the playing field for reduced traction. But the problem could be for snow plows or a similar device. By thinking WAY to much into this hint I could mean that 2006 will require the stacking of irregularly shaped objects.

Of course there have been other regionals since then, so can anyone remember any hints he gave out at the ending ceremony, for other regionals? Also if anyone from the VCU regional can remember the phrase please post it in better from than I have.

teamtestbot

10-11-2005, 16:23

A powder coated playing field would be quite messy to set up and clean up...

Nica F.

10-11-2005, 16:35

it would be, but you never know what the new challenge might involve. :D

Ryan Foley

10-11-2005, 17:19

In response to this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=415416&postcount=5) post by Mr. Lavery.

Only two acronyms show up in that paragraph, one being "GDC" and the other being "MST" both being used fictionally. Now "GDC" also stands for "Game Design Commitee". So using inductive reasoning I'm assujming that MST is either the acronym for the object we must manipulate or the acronym of the name of the game.

Now, going off this, and Grayswandir-75's find about Tammy and 2001, here's my guess.

Manchester Standard Time: the important thing here is "time"
2001: remember the 2001 game, teams could shut themselves down for points
Dave's mentioning of RC's shutting down on their own: supports idea above.

I think points/ multipliers based on time are back.

Rickertsen2

10-11-2005, 18:56

I think we can rule out snow, water etc. They playing field must be something that can easily be moved from regional to regional and must be something that is within the reach of teams to make.

lukevanoort

10-11-2005, 19:46

I think that we might be able to put the batons onto the less likely side, if not eliminated. That hint seemed a bit too obvious.

Originally posted by Birdman1011395

Don't know about other regionals (and I don't believe this has been brought up before), but Dave Lavery at the VCU regional said something along the lines of "It's snowing outside, and it gives me some ideas". Or something to that effect and made mention of how he got an idea from the Richmond Science Museum for 2005's competition.

I remember that snow/freezing rain. I walked to the grocery store in it. I really can't see how that'd give him ideas though, unless its electronic "snow." Maybe they'll stick a transmitter set to throw static into the signal, and you have to program to counteract it. Sand and such would also be very bad for gearboxes, and maybe compreesors (are they filtered?). I can see FIRST being a little sadistic, but that's too much. I think a traction comprimised floor is quite possible though, like the top of the ramp in '03.(I might have the year wrong)

kjohnson

10-11-2005, 20:45

I remember that snow too - it was weird to see snow on top of the bus in Richmond in MARCH. I sure hope Dave was joking about that, but maybe he could mean a blizzard: the driver's vision will be blocked but they will have someone else (like the human player at the corner of the field this year) to tell them where to go.

Other that that kind of blizzard, I seriously doubt FIRST would make any kind of game involving something that could so easily damage an expensive robot. Even if something was falling from above, the robot would need to be completely sealed (And that starts a problem with heat not being able to escape properly). And like Rickertsen2 said, the playing fields will need to be somewhat easy to transport and not extremely expensive because teams will want to practice under competition conditions.

jdiwnab

11-11-2005, 00:00

You know, there is such thing as fake snow that won't damage stuff. There is also styrofoam peanuts that could work, too. I don't discount Dave's VCU regional hint. Obvious, yes, but, who knows?

And reguarding the snow, I was out there in short sleaves and shorts. Mostly because I didn't want to carry a coat/long sleave shirt/long pants around. Much easier to be comfortable in the pits and chily outside.:D

lukevanoort

11-11-2005, 14:31

I too only wore shorts and a tee, but I did have an old leather jacket to deal with the wind that a rarely wore, since the zipper made a lot of noise bouncing around. I agree with rickertsen2 on the snow issue, even if its non hazerdous material aren't going to be used, since the huge mess. But, you know we could be thinking to literally, it might be associated with something totally random in his mind, like sheep dogs or something. For example caves remind me of King Vitamin cereal.

chady015

12-11-2005, 07:21

As great as hard core command line programming is, it is not for everyone. If you can understand it - you have a major advantage. But not everyone can easily understand that stuff. That is why most modern computers use use a GUI instead of command line to access programs. Apple realized that in the 1980s, that in order for computers to be bought by the masses, they had to be easy to use. They figured that ordinary people didn't care if their OS took up more memory space. Sure, the GUI isn't as powerful or as efficient as command line can be, but the GUI's are more user friendly - which means more people can use them.

Another reason why a GUI-based application for programming the FRC robots is greatly needed is that everyone learns and comprehends things differently. Some people can be geniuses, but if you lectured them all day, they wouldn't remember a thing. Other people need to be able to "see" things to comprehend them. I have to be able to "see" things to comprehend them, which is why I am great at the mechanical end of things, because I can "see" all the parts in my head and "see" how they move and interact. EasyC for Vex comes very easy to me, because I can look at the icons and "see" exactly what it does.

Right now, lets consider everyone's robot. How many this year had noteworthy autonomous programs? Not a whole lot, which is why GUI-based software for programming robots is such a great idea. This helps to balance the playing field. Now, even though it may not be as powerful, the average sophistication of the programming will dramatically increase, because now a wider variety of people can use this software.

Because of all this, for the 2006 game - expect to see a harder, longer, and more sophisticated autonomous mode with multiple tasks of varying difficulty levels.

Hi
I am a post graduate student involved with eLabtronics, the people who designed CoreChart.

Until I started programming in CoreChart I founnd it difficult to start programming in text assembler or C. CoreChart has enabled to me to pick up porgramming PICs in a short time. Most important of all CoreChart is an ACTUAL GRAPHICAL ASSEMBLER and not just a high level interface. Every one Icon is an instruction in the PIC assembler and hence CoreChart is used by professional engineers for complex real time applications! They use CoreChart to reduce prototyping time.

In Singapore High School students 14, 15 years are learning to use CoreChart for robotics competition based on the IFI EDU-Mini controllers. They then go onto dogin CoreChart PIC industry projects in Video Surveillance monitoring or home automation etc mentored by college students and industry experts. They are developing Smart kids in Singapore using CoreChart as what these 14 years old learn is actually pure assembler!

Good luck.
David

Lee

12-11-2005, 15:55

Batons are used in track events in a relay race. How about a PVC pipe with end caps that has to be transferred from robot to robot autonomously. Or maybe the "goal" is the opponents robot. Each robot would have a basket in which the opponent tries to place a baton. Could the batons start on the floor as a pile of "pixie stix?" How hard would it be to pick a 2" PVC pipe from the floor?

Alan Anderson

12-11-2005, 16:57

How hard would it be to pick a 2" PVC pipe from the floor?
I can imagine many ways to do it. If it turns out to be part of a FRC game, you can bet some teams will make it look easy, and I predict at least one will come up with something that makes everyone else wish they had thought of it.

billbo911

12-11-2005, 19:25

..... but maybe he could mean a blizzard: the driver's vision will be blocked but they will have someone else (like the human player at the corner of the field this year) to tell them where to go....

Let's consider a couple more combinations of hints.
When you mentioned the driver's vision being limited or blocked, I immediatly thought about the appearent push that seems to be in place to have the CMU Cameras back in place this year. If this is true, and picking up "batons" were included, then it would make sense that the game could actually allow the use of the camera to aid the drivers vision during a portion, if not all of the match to guide them to the game objects, like a baton.

During autonomous mode, limiting the robot to ONLY use the camera as a sensor is another possibility. After all, Dave's mentioning of rules that "restrict" the use of certain items really only points to a rule that restricts the use of certain item, not what that item was. Here is the quote:..... For example, what about a rule that says "no threaded fasteners of any type are permitted on the robot."* If it were up to me, I would add a rule like that. Oh, wait, it is...

-dave

Notice the "like", Dave didn't say "No threaded fasteners", but he did say a rule "like" that. :ahh:

EricH

12-11-2005, 21:11

More hint removal/analysis.

Removal: hovercraft. Building a FIRST robot to act like a hovercraft and still pass inspection would be very difficult.

Analysis: English Channel. Difficult to cross without special equipment (boat, hovercraft, tunnel. We've already ruled out boat & hovercraft, and tunnel is impractical.) Probably going to be different surfaces, one much more difficult than the rest and placed in the middle of the field.

Analysis: fox in the henhouse. What happens when a fox gets into the henhouse? The chickens (obviously not Thunderchickens) panic. Two explanations: either that's all of us at some point during the season (hint release and kickoff come to mind) or something on the field will scatter if a robot hits an area. Remember the ball dump in '04? I suspect that 1) the game object will be easy to scatter and 2) that the game object will scatter if and only if a robot (fox) hits a certain target area (henhouse), probably in auto mode. Of course, I could be all wrong, and the game object is some form of chicken...

Removal: Whack the Billfred. Logistical problems (again). Billfred obviously can't be in 8 places at once. Nuff' said.

Birdman1011395

12-11-2005, 23:11

So who's to say we're the fox?

And here's one question, do foxes carry off the chickens, or do they eat the chickens in the coop?

And the instant I type that something hits. Another name for a henhouse is a coop, kind of like Co-op, which is gamer slang for cooperative. A cooperative mode is not the traditional team multiplayer mode, but one where there is a single team "cooperating" towards a singular objective. Now could that mean that the game this year could be an indirect competition with the other alliance?

Miroslav

13-11-2005, 07:36

Wait... what?? Looking at the example for FRC controllers, it just looks like all the code thrown into a flow-chart interface (a graphical tool used in real computer science classes I've seen to teach the core logic/reasoning/organizing ANYONE needs in order to program). This isn't just script code like "turn left for blah seconds"--there seems to be a direct correlation between what the flow-chart displays and what the actual code will be (if count Bit 7 ON yes--> SET rc_dig_out16 ON, etc. etc.). It looks like you can comment directly into the flow-chart boxes to describe what is going on, too.

This means that the only difference between the flow-chart and actual code may be purely formating in nature, in which case, how does this have no correlation to the real world? Heck, it doesn't even look like pseudo-code; you have to use real variable names, real subroutine names, real function calls! And once a new programmer feels comfortable with the logic, *CLICK* and they see the real code! And it looks almost exactly like what they did with the flow-chart! "Wow! Maybe this programming stuff isn't so bad! I can do this..."

I can understand the nerd attachment to CLI's and aversion of all things graphical, but if the examples show the actual product delivered (and if FIRST/Kevin Watson brings the scripts back in addition to this interface, by all means, but that isn't this specific program), this is the most code-like graphical interface I've seen. I'm almost afraid that some newbie programmers will still be puzzled by it, as it isn't as graphical and perhaps as intuitive as Lego's interface or even Robolab. I really don't see what the big pout is all about. This seems to head in the right direction to get new programmers into the fold, while allowing novice programmers to transition and advanced programmers to keep hacking at their leisure.

'Winged Globe' has made a discovery about CoreChart and its direct correlation to assembler code. He is one of the few programmers who actually understands this. Most assume that because it is a flowchart program then it must be embedded code. CoreChart does NOT sacrifice any flexibility or access in programming at all but only makes the SAME programming graphical to avoid syntax errors.

The result is a Graphical Assembler which is used for Professional programming while being much easier to learn and start. Here at eLabtronics CoreChart has been used to create an intercooler spray controller program which predicts if the intercooler on a turbo engine will overheat and sprays water to stop this from happening. The real time system has 1/10,000 second cycle speed and is able to read 2 thermistors, 2 pots and 1 duty cyle signal from the injectors ( to 1% ) on a PIC16F84 running at 4MHz. Audizone in USA has given rave reviews on this product.

Similar products include a 29 unit array of DC-DC converters programmed in CoreChart for solar energy conversion used in the World Solar race. Thousands of students in High School are learning to use CoreChart. Some have gone on to do industry projects programmed in CoreChart sponsored by electronics companies.

We are currently working with some FIRST robotics teams mentor ( electronics company and college students ) to use CoreChart. We hope to continue with some of these FIRST robotics teams on CoreChart industry projects. The rational behind this is to enhance the employability of the FIRST robotics students.

Quote from an engineer at City University in London, England:

"There is a good feeling that embedded and robotics projects are
re-kindling students' interests. However, Assembly and C is quite a
challenge - even for professionals.

This is why I think Core Chart will succeed - its intuitive, simple to
understand whilst powerful as it is a full Assembler and affordable."

CoreChart is Assembler with graphical access. Most programmers do not look at CoreChart as closely as 'Winged Globe' and unfortunately they have assumed that CoreChart is another 'scripting' tool.

Dan Petrovic

13-11-2005, 11:13

Do you think they will stick with the three-team alliance? I really liked that idea.

Andrew Blair

13-11-2005, 11:44

Do you think they will stick with the three-team alliance? I really liked that idea.

I think they will for a couple of reasons. Obviously, the three teams require some more organization, and a more complicated game. For the first time we had to apply kind of an active traffic control as alliances.

Secondly, there are definitely more teams involved now. FIRST really has no option but to put more robots on the field in order to get all the matches in. FIRST could right now still keep a two alliance with difficulty, but in a short period that will be an impossibility.

Nick Bailey

13-11-2005, 11:56

I think it would be cool to have a 2v2v2 game. That way you would get a older game play method ('92-'98) but still with the same team capacity. At a demo I also found out the LED team markers can flash green. :)

Petey

13-11-2005, 12:28

I kind of hope they go back to 2x2. I wasn't a huge fan of the congestion in 3x3.

Good point above on analysis of "fox in the henhouse".

Furthermore, CD is getting a lot of marketing from these eLabtronics guys--somebody must have found that we're discussing CoreChart on here. One of them emailed me and was asking if my team would like to take advantage of their technology. This is strange, because it implies CoreChart will not be shipped with the KOP, as my sources had indicated it would be.

Of course, he might not be privy to the FIRST-eLabtronics relationship the way my source is.

Man. This is frustrating. I know Dave's hints are usually obfuscatory, but this is bad. "You already have it" has got to be the most obscure hint ever. Er, congratulations, Dave?

--Petey

artdutra04

13-11-2005, 12:57

I kind of hope they go back to 2x2. I wasn't a huge fan of the congestion in 3x3.

Good point above on analysis of "fox in the henhouse".

Furthermore, CD is getting marketing spam from these eLabtronics guys--somebody must have found that we're discussing CoreChart on here. One of them emailed me and was asking if my team would like to take advantage of their technology. This is strange, because it implies CoreChart will not be shipped with the KOP, as my sources had indicated it would be.

Of course, he might not be privy to the FIRST-eLabtronics relationship the way my source is.

Man. This is frustrating. I know Dave's hints are usually obfuscatory, but this is bad. "You already have it" has got to be the most obscure hint ever. Er, congratulations, Dave?

--Petey
I have to disagree with you about the 3x3 games. A 3x3 game is soooo much more exciting - especially for the drivers/coach. You have to keep track of more robots, you have to coordinate you actions with your alliance better (i.e. three robots that all want to go to the two human tetra loaders at the same time), and overall, six robots at a time makes the game so much more interesting.

About the "marketing spam" part, I would not say that someone who is posting the specs about a programming software application for FIRST is spam. These guys are working hard to help even the playing field, and create a software to help non-programmers learn C easier. How is this any different than promoting any of the AndyMark tranmissions here? Many teams may not have full CNC facilities, so designing their own shifting transmissions is out of the picture. So purchasing an AndyMark transmission or wheels may be very beneficial to them, in the same way that CoreChart would help people without a knowledge of C programming to get their robot programmed.

Both AndyMark and eLabtronics are doing a wonderful job to help FIRST - as well as every other company that is donating resources/time to FIRST.

Petey

13-11-2005, 14:17

I have to disagree with you about the 3x3 games. A 3x3 game is soooo much more exciting - especially for the drivers/coach. You have to keep track of more robots, you have to coordinate you actions with your alliance better (i.e. three robots that all want to go to the two human tetra loaders at the same time), and overall, six robots at a time makes the game so much more interesting.

About the "marketing spam" part, I would not say that someone who is posting the specs about a programming software application for FIRST is spam. These guys are working hard to help even the playing field, and create a software to help non-programmers learn C easier. How is this any different than promoting any of the AndyMark tranmissions here? Many teams may not have full CNC facilities, so designing their own shifting transmissions is out of the picture. So purchasing an AndyMark transmission or wheels may be very beneficial to them, in the same way that CoreChart would help people without a knowledge of C programming to get their robot programmed.

Both AndyMark and eLabtronics are doing a wonderful job to help FIRST - as well as every other company that is donating resources/time to FIRST.

Agreed. I edited out "Spam" in my above post. I was using it inaccurately.

But still--will we see CoreChart shipped with the KOP or not?

--Petey

bear24rw

13-11-2005, 14:30

But still--will we see CoreChart shipped with the KOP or not?

--Petey

On ifirobotics.com, CoreChart is only under the programming section for the mini RC (http://ifirobotics.com/edu-rc.shtml) , i find it odd why it wouldn't be on the FRC page instead....

Tom Bottiglieri

13-11-2005, 15:40

All this talk of Batons has got me thinking...

http://www.team195.com/files/broken.jpg

:rolleyes:

Ian Curtis

13-11-2005, 16:53

Oh deary.

Originally Posted by kayla13
I am not a loser!!!

10/10 for always speaking the truth (and for getting Karthik to wear a kilt).

-dave

This one is definitely a hint. Reason being Dave posted in the Chit-Chat Forum, not the games and trivia but the Chit-chat. Now upon close examination we see that Dave Quoted the phrase "I am not a loser!!" Now there was only been 1 game in which that was law, namely Co-opertition in 2001 which was 4 vs. 0. I think there might be another hint in there but I can't figure it out.

Smrtman5

13-11-2005, 19:29

10/10 might be like 20/20 vision, something to do with vision again. Or the 80/20 extrusion. *shrug*

sciguy125

13-11-2005, 19:37

I have a proposition.

Rather than wasting our time speculating about the game, why don't we all get together and focus our resources to something more productive. Our new goal: Develop a time machine. We'll send someone forward, then they'll come back and report.

Smrtman5

13-11-2005, 19:39

I started to build a time machine, but i havnt had the time to finish it :rolleyes:

dlavery

13-11-2005, 20:53

I once started to build a time machine. But then I went back in time and told myself that it wouldn't work, so I gave up on it.

-dave

Birdman1011395

13-11-2005, 21:02

This is certainly a hint! This years kit will come with a time machine!

And to prove it I will send myself back in time at kick-off to a few minutes from now to say "Hi" to myself.

Still waiting...

Rohan_DHS

13-11-2005, 21:04

I once started to build a time machine. But then I went back in time and told myself that it wouldn't work, so I gave up on it.

-dave
:ahh: A hint!!!

"..went back in time" - I think that this is pretty self explanitory here (something to do with previous years)...but I'm not 100% sure...

also, i think that Tom is on the right track... :-\

Either that, or Dave really tried making a time machine :rolleyes:

p.s. I'm not too good at putting clues together...I tried :o lol

KarenH

13-11-2005, 22:01

I once started to build a time machine. But then I went back in time and told myself that it wouldn't work, so I gave up on it.

-dave
How would you figure out it didn't work by going BACK in time? Don't you have to go FORWARD to when you've perfected it (or failed) to figure out whether it will work?

Or are you trying to convince us that you're really a pessimist at heart? Sorry, Dave, I won't believe it!!

Wait-- Now I've figured out the real reason you posted this! You're trying to discourage the rest of us from building a time machine so that we can't learn, in advance, what next year's game will be!!

By the way, my dad built a time machine in our garage when I was a kid. He used cardboard, not metal. :D

phrontist

14-11-2005, 00:05

I remember the "Snow Hint". I support the idea that it refers to "snow" as in noise, static, chaos, etc. I think FIRST has been in a tough situation as far as autonomous goes. It's depressing to see robots sit around for 15 seconds... yet they want to reward teams who are good at autonomus. The compromise could be the ability to voluntarily switch in autonomus and complete tasks in that mode for extra points. Or forgo autonomus entirely. This allows point allocation to reflect the "bonus" nature of auto-mode.

Oh, and I suggested it a while back, so they darn well better do it :-)

JVN

14-11-2005, 00:14

Me neither. I have found that he has absolutely no sense of humor at all.

-dave

That's what happens when I don't sleep.
I get grumpy staying up all night working on your danged prototypes. The thrust just ISN'T THERE! Stop trying to force it, we're not ready.

dlavery

14-11-2005, 00:35

billbo911

14-11-2005, 10:43

That's what happens when I don't sleep.
I get grumpy staying up all night working on your danged prototypes. The thrust just ISN'T THERE! Stop trying to force it, we're not ready.
Look, I gave in on the bus shelter - you don't have to build it. So stop whining, get yer rear in gear, and finish up on the Viking Death Ship. We need it for next week.

-dave

WOW! Talk about a pair of hints!

Lets see: "Thrust isn't there", No force, not ready, shelter, "rear in gear" and my favorite "Viking Death Ship".

VDS from Viking Death Ship, could this stand for Variably Delayed Start,Visibility Degradation System or Video Display System (that goes back to my last post, read it and see) or..........

"Thrust isn't there", No force, not ready, shelter. Sheltered areas on the field that protect you from something. Might that be wind, rain (there's that water theme again), electrical interference.

Putting the two together: Robot control performed or enhanced by Video Feed. Certain areas on the field will either have the signal blocked or visually impaired to prevent seeing where the robot actually is forcing the drivers to have to guess or switch to autonomous (this could play into the "Fox in the Hen-house" hint).

Just my two cents in the early morning (well, early for me at least). :cool:

Rickertsen2

14-11-2005, 17:33

Does JVN have any knowledge of the game?

Rod

14-11-2005, 18:40

Does JVN have any knowledge of the game?
Ah Yea he does.

Ian Curtis

14-11-2005, 18:41

Look, I gave in on the bus shelter - you don't have to build it. So stop whining, get yer rear in gear, and finish up on the Viking Death Ship. We need it for next week.

-dave

More examinations. In line 2 he says "get yer rear in gear" which is definitely breaking lavery's first quote of prose, namely don't abbreviate, pronounce nuclear nu-KLI-er, and never use the phrase y'all in written prose. "yer rear in gear" includes three "er" sounds.

1.
RRR turns up no reasonable results on google, except for things about Land Rovers and Australian Radio. Inflatable kangaroos? In case you didn't know kanagaroos in more populated areas of australia tend to live on golf courses and lie in sand traps, where they occasionally get hit. Whack-the-Kangaroo-Billfred?

2. More intense searching reveals RRR could stand for "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle"? I am probably reading wayyyy to much into this one put you never know. Maybe 3 different ways to score 1 item?

Tom Bottiglieri

14-11-2005, 18:54

More examinations. In line 2 he says "get yer rear in gear" which is definitely breaking lavery's first quote of prose, namely don't abbreviate, pronounce nuclear nu-KLI-er, and never use the phrase y'all in written prose. "yer rear in gear" includes three "er" sounds.

1.
RRR turns up no reasonable results on google, except for things about Land Rovers and Australian Radio. Inflatable kangaroos? In case you didn't know kanagaroos in more populated areas of australia tend to live on golf courses and lie in sand traps, where they occasionally get hit. Whack-the-Kangaroo-Billfred?

2. More intense searching reveals RRR could stand for "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle"? I am probably reading wayyyy to much into this one put you never know. Maybe 3 different ways to score 1 item?
We all know Dave's hints are way more subtle than that. :ahh:

Smrtman5

14-11-2005, 19:03

Horray for assonance! :rolleyes:

Rohan_DHS

14-11-2005, 19:39

Just as in my previous post, the going back theme is apparent: rear in gear (if switched around, it says "gear in rear")...and the went back in time also has to do with going back. :yikes: lol

Andrew Blair

14-11-2005, 19:55

C'mon guys, we're all reading into these things a bit too much...Dave's whacked, he knows it, and he's having wayyyy too much fun watching us feebly try to guess this years game in an attempt to sate our impatience for build season.(If I'm not a psychologist for that one, the problem is not in my analysis, but in your perception :D. That'll be 200 dollars.)

In guessing so many things, we've almost surely found at least part of the game. We have the answer! (Well, Dave does too, but unless we get out the rack, we're probably not getting it from him...)

Tom Bottiglieri

14-11-2005, 20:33

Just as in my previous post, the going back theme is apparent: rear in gear (if switched around, it says "gear in rear")...and the went back in time also has to do with going back. :yikes: lol
Once again I say, all this talk of Batons and traveling back in time is quite curious...

http://www.team195.com/files/broken.jpg

Andrew Blair

14-11-2005, 20:36

^ This would save FIRST some smackers! Just tear down the old tetras!

Wetzel

15-11-2005, 00:37

Autonomous at the end, to set the field back to a ready state for bonus points.

Wetzel

Petey

15-11-2005, 01:26

Wetzel, if you're right, Kickoff is going to kill thousands of programmers nationwide.

What if they don't reset the field--but require the robots to go autonomous from wherever they happen to be?

--Petey

Billfred

15-11-2005, 01:31

What if they don't reset the field--but require the robots to go autonomous from wherever they happen to be?
The bounds of reality seem to indicate this is how it would have to be. Otherwise, you wind up setting the field up, running the driver control, resetting, then autonomous. Field resets aren't particularly fast--ask anyone who did reset in 2004 how much fun they had trying to reload the ball dumps.

RonStoppable102

15-11-2005, 01:31

This post was written in vi and uploaded via a TCP/IP stack I whipped up on the fly by waving magnets around my harddrive with amazing precision. The vi part was much harder.

Oh good lord, theres a good way to kill a true nerd's spirits. Make them use VI......haha!

Tom Bottiglieri

15-11-2005, 07:03

The bounds of reality seem to indicate this is how it would have to be. Otherwise, you wind up setting the field up, running the driver control, resetting, then autonomous. Field resets aren't particularly fast--ask anyone who did reset in 2004 how much fun they had trying to reload the ball dumps.
Yeah, but then again Jeff's idea wasn't half bad. If robots could get the field back to an "almost" ready state, it would take quite a load off the field re-setters.

JamesBrown

15-11-2005, 08:58

Putting the auto last would make it far more important, a game like this years where you have to be the last to cap on each goal in a row to get the 10 points. This would make the auton much more important, teams would spend driver control trying to set up a good auton rather than spending auton trying to set up the drivers.

Eric L

15-11-2005, 12:10

I once started to build a time machine. But then I went back in time and told myself that it wouldn't work, so I gave up on it.

-dave

maybe by this state ment he means that past sensors and game elements that didn't work as well as they thought will be reappearing. such as the IR and the CMU cam.

JVN

15-11-2005, 12:15

I once started to build a time machine. But then I went back in time and told myself that it wouldn't work, so I gave up on it.

-dave

FIRST Frenzy: RE-Raising the Bar?

alphastryk

15-11-2005, 13:25

from all the hints I have seen so far that I beleive, I think that there will be some sort of object to hit that scatters (fox in the henhouse) baton-like objects (baton hint) and we have to pick them up, with a bonus for time?

and maybe a reduced budget. :(

also, this would also go towards the fine motor control robot...hmm...

pick-up-sticks anyone?

TheLostRenegade

15-11-2005, 14:05

Maybe they are leading us towards a combination of previous games, so something like that. All this talk about the past and going back in time has got me thinking.... :ahh:

coastertux

15-11-2005, 17:52

I think Dave give hints and then watches our discussions. He mus laugh with all the insane ideas we give him. So essentially, it is our crazy ideas that make up the next crazy game!

Thats just my theory. :p

Beta Version

16-11-2005, 19:10

In the past its been a challenge to traverse more difficult types of terrain (as in not carpet on certain places like ramps and such)

Going along with the snowy weather and English channel hint,

snow = ice
hovercraft = traversing difficult terrain like water

Maybe they want to see us try and drive up/on a slick surface?

Greg Marra

16-11-2005, 20:24

The "Viking Death Ship" kind of reminds me of this story (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/10/22/state/n121443D54.DTL) that was floating around about a solar anti-wooden-ship ray on Mythbusters and then MIT trying to make it work.

Maybe there will be some sort of light involved in the game? The CMUCam?

Petey

16-11-2005, 20:28

jdiwnab

16-11-2005, 21:02

artdutra04

16-11-2005, 22:29

OH NO!

Wait...remember at the beginning of the thread, when we asked Dave for a hint and he said "we already have it."?

Then this "time machine" post, which I originally read as just an offhand remark...but both of those together...

I think there's decent circumstantial evidence that suggests we're going to be looking at some element from last year's game.

--Petey
Time travel isn't limited to just one year - going by FIRST's "tradition", this year will be a ball year. Maybe the balls will be the same size as in a previous year's game. (Maybe soccer balls, playground balls, and big balls again).

But remember, you need to get to 88 mph in order to travel through time and you need flux capicators. Is this going to be in the KoP? ;)

Or...

A time machines would be able to travel forward into the future as well as back in time. So by saying that we already have the hint, could be refering to sometime in the future when we realize we have the hint, and that the hint was given in the past. But relative to today, maybe that has yet to be released.

But then we come to the whole part about time machines not being invented yet. However, if you invented one in the future, you could come back in time and give the plans to someone else to build one. But then the circumstances for the original plans may never come about, causing a weird tear in the fabric of the space-time continuum.

Ohh man. When time travel is finally invented, I think our brains will explode from trying to repiece together what actually happened during all the times in with we traveled through time. :eek:

http://backtothefuture.t35.com/1955_doc_dp.jpg

BTW, this reminds me of the AOL Superbowl commercial (http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2532921&pg=default&skin=default&refsite=default&mediaSize=default&context=product&launchVal=1&data=) from a few years ago. (There may be a commercial before the actual video) ;)

EricH

16-11-2005, 23:22

Maybe they want to see us try and drive up/on a slick surface?
No!!! Not HDPE again!!! Two years in a row was enough!!

As for the time thing: I doubt it will not have an element from a previous game. They all have had at least one element. A refresher course: 2003 had a ramp (back to 2000/2001). 2004 had a platform (back to 1999 and the "puck"), HDPE (2003), and a hanging bar (2000 again). 2005 had multiples of three (all games before 1999) and humans loading the robots (all games before 1999 that I remember). And of course, it will come in a new way that we don't expect and leave us groaning as we try to build the field and a robot. :D

Let's see, what do we have reasonably nailed down here? 1) game objects will likely be batons or balls (or both :yikes: ) and 2) there will likely be something in the middle of the field that is different from the rest of the surface, and 3) the game objects might be released by the robots during the match. This based on 1) Dave's hint about batons, combined with the FIRST trend and Dave's "fox in the henhouse" hint, 2) Dave's 'English Channel' hint, and 3) Dave's "fox in the henhouse" hint.
Plus the fact that it will likely have at least one element from a previous year, I'd personally say that this game will be most similar to 2004 or 2003. (as a guess)

Rickertsen2

17-11-2005, 00:07

But remember, you need to get to 88 mph in order to travel through time and you need flux capicators. Is this going to be in the KoP? ;)

Don't forget the 1.21 Jiggawatts of electricity. We will clearly need a beefier electrical system.

dhitchco

17-11-2005, 11:33

Well,
if I truly believed in time travel, then we'd expect:

1) we'd be living in caves (hmmmm...robots traveling through a tunnel maybe)
2) we'd be living in the dark (turn out the field lights for auto mode?)
3) we'd be living in the ice age or the oceans (maybe a water path?)
4) we'd be living without electricity (maybe 1.21 jigawatts of Tesla power through the air?)
5) we'd be living with dinosaurs (well, enough said about the judges!)

ahecht

17-11-2005, 12:11

I edited out "Spam" in my above post. I was using it inaccurately.

I'm not so sure it's inaccurate. Posting the exact same marketing material in several threads, and then emailing everyone who participated in those threads with a copy of the exact same marketing material is Spammish in my book.

Petey

17-11-2005, 12:44

I'm not so sure it's inaccurate. Posting the exact same marketing material in several threads, and then emailing everyone who participated in those threads with a copy of the exact same marketing material is Spammish in my book.

Ah. I'd only seen my one email, and only the posts in this thread. Those were on mark.

--Petey

Ian Curtis

17-11-2005, 14:57

game objects will likely be batons or balls (or both :yikes: )
I don't think they are batons, but rather something very similar. I was looking back to last year and there were a lot of hints that led to pyramids and lo and behold, many CDer's hit the pyramid thing on the head. So we need to figure out a connection to another object that baton's are in common with.

billbo911

17-11-2005, 15:16

I can't wait until Kick Off! Simultaneously across the country there will be one loud cry of "Doh!", followed by the sound of smacking foreheads with the palm of a hand, then "Why didn't I figure that out? I saw the hint".

Indeed, hind sight is 20/20.

Madison

18-11-2005, 15:19

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417865&postcount=2

I don't much care for guessing, as it's fruitless, but let me throw caution to the wind and predict that human player participation and the level at which it happens will be dependent on some autonomous goal.

eiii

19-11-2005, 04:20

jdiwnab

19-11-2005, 21:03

Hmmm... I think he's just trying to confuse us.

I think he does that a lot. Not just in that example.

EricH

20-11-2005, 01:06

Dave confuse us? So what else is new? :rolleyes:

I have seen that most of Dave's "hints" can be interpreted in at least 2 ways. Usually, one way is that it's a fake or a joke. After that possibility, there is often at least one other option. So, what we have to do is find as many possible options as we can and then figure out which ones are real. For example, the last "hint" would fit in very well with at least one interpretation of the "no metal on robots rule" hint, but that particular hint is most likely a fake, so it leaves things wide open still, though I like some of the ideas advanced in that thread about human player involvement changing based on robot action. So, I guess we can watch for more hints and wait for kickoff!

litchfieldc

21-11-2005, 10:20

litchfieldc

21-11-2005, 10:32

I think I know what the game is. We will need to knock over a stack of boxes that contains tetras, as well as bits of paper. :yikes: When you drive to pick up the tetra, your robot will slide on the paper which was spilled when you dumped it. After that, you have to move the boxes to your side, and stack the tetras inside of a PVC goal which will be located somewhere in the vacinity of here and there. To add a relay idea to this, you will need to split the task up three ways and use alliance members to do other tasks (one hits the boxes, one moves them, one stacks). Well, what do you think? :D

What is a speculation, but an idea not accepted by many

Petey

21-11-2005, 14:28

Look at every game ever played for first, the main scoring object is 3-D. Maybe we'll use FLAT objects this year. After all, what is a baton but a flat piece of tubing. Maybe we'll be hanging hoops or something over a hook. :ahh: Until we find out, I will keep speculating. What is a speculation, but an idea that is not accepted by many.

I dunno, Chris. A baton isn't flat, in the conventional sense of the word--it's rounded. Very much so.

As to your paper idea--what basis do you have for the inclusion of paper? I don't think they'll have the paper for sliding, because that would be contrary to common sense safety issues, and we all know FIRST is big on safety. Would FIRST grease the playing field? No (and Dave, you're not allowed to use that for an idea).

No, I think someone who noticed the pattern of triangles and balls is right. We'll be going back to balls this year, with the possible inclusion of batons.

--Petey

Ian Curtis

21-11-2005, 14:59

Look at every game ever played for first, the main scoring object is 3-D. Maybe we'll use FLAT objects this year. After all, what is a baton but a flat piece of tubing.

Nope. One year ('98 maybe?) the game was played with things called floppies, which are basically flat donut shaped objects.

I stand corrected. But in the scheme of things, 2 inches is still pretty flat compared to a 12 in tetra or playground ball. Or maybe I'm just stubborn.

EricH

21-11-2005, 15:38

Nope. One year ('98 maybe?) the game was played with things called floppies, which are basically flat donut shaped objects.
They were NOT flat, they were large discs about 2-3 inches high with Velcro on the edges. The year? 1999

Oh, and Petey, there is not really a pattern. It's been mostly balls since 1999, with 2003 and 2005 as exceptions. The field elements are where you need to look for the triangle, circle, square pattern (which tells me that there will likely be a triangular ramp of some form.)

craigcd

21-11-2005, 15:41

ALPHASTRYK may be going in the right direction. Think of the bowling pin as a baton shaped object. Scatter the pins (fox in the hen house) at the beginning by the autonomous mode and having to replace them in the driver mode. Or placing them in order in the driver mode and an knocking them down in the autonomous mode at the end. Bowling pins are placed in the form of a triangle. Question: Did the vikings invent bowling?

billbo911

21-11-2005, 17:17

Question: Did the vikings invent bowling?

A quick Google found: Question: Who invented bowling?

Answer: Archaeologists have discovered bowling balls, pins and other equipment in an Egyptian child's grave dating back to 5200 B.C. So we know that Egyptians were playing a form of bowling centuries ago. In Germany, back in A.D. 200, village dances and celebrations included a similar form of the game -- they rolled stones at nine wooden clubs called kegles. Bowlers in Germany are sometimes still referred to as "keglers"......
This was found at http://www.cubed.com/users/allure/FAQ2.HTML

So, I guess he answer to your question is no. :(
So much for the connection between bowling and the "Viking Death Ship" hint. For that I think we need to foucs on the letters VDS. :confused:

teamtestbot

21-11-2005, 18:36

I'm still stuck on the whole shopping cart deal.

Maybe the game objects are to be picked up and hoarded after being scattered?

Wetzel

21-11-2005, 19:14

Nope. One year ('98 maybe?) the game was played with things called floppies, which are basically flat donut shaped objects.
I found a picture of a floppy in flight. I still have one or two in my room, I use them in conjuction with my beanbag.
http://www.team116.org/1999/Pictures/Practice.jpg
Wetzel

vic burg

21-11-2005, 20:22

well, going along with the floppy idea, since there is a pattern, maybe it is that it is similar to the floppy but in a triangle shape, where we are in pairs or threes again and must pass them along to one side of the Field. that would incorporate all of the rumors.... however it could be that Dave is simply messing with us because it is fun to see what we come up with....
but from looking at the past things, i would have to say that maybe even we may have all three shapes, boxes, triangles and circles, where they are up in a net sort of thing(going along with the rain/snow idea) and we have to release them by pulling out a baton type thing, putting the baton thing somewhere special and putting the shapes in piles?
that would be interesting....
or maybe the field is in the shape of a triangle, where we must move baton like things(PVC, what the tetras were made of last year) into triangle shapes?
that would odd.... how would that work.....
oh, or maybe, oh, i like this one, we have to put our human players in the Field, they get buried under something (that the robot has to bury them under) and then they must use a triangle shaped floppy to get them out, kinda of like a lifesaver, incorporating the water, but maybe its a bit harder where the human player is in something and it like jenga.... wow, okay my mind is running wild and crazy now.....
anyone like my ideas? lol :D
I'm a crazy dork i know but hey, everyone seems to love it! lol (very happy that we are getting closer to FIRST!)

Andrew Blair

21-11-2005, 20:34

oh, or maybe, oh, i like this one, we have to put our human players in the Field, they get buried under something (that the robot has to bury them under) and then they must use a triangle shaped floppy to get them out, kinda of like a lifesaver...

Okay I see it now, the first game where kids would rather sit on the sidelines than be on the drive team as human player. The paramedics at the competition will finally have something to keep them busy! Haha, here we go: the Comau Pico machinists and the paramedics can sit around the water cooler and swap stories about how they fixed up different teams! :D

lol, I'm just kidding. the human player concept would require some better human interface thought, rather than the typical build the robot, then figure out how the student will not get killed standing close to it. And paramedics and Comau Pico people really do keep teams alive. Whether it be someone hurting themselves while hitting something with a hammer, or fixing the thing the student hit with the hammer, they all keep us running at competitions.

Swampdude

21-11-2005, 21:10

We also learned we don't want to see you in a sparkly leotard! :ahh:

-dave

I think we're due for a photoshop of Bill Beatty (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32916&highlight=bill+beatty) working on his baton twirling. Or Dave, maybe Heidi can get started on your next famous pose!

Koko Ed

21-11-2005, 21:35

It's amazing the amount of milage these threads get.
Just 46 days to kickoff kids.
Hang in there.

Kevin Kolodziej

22-11-2005, 00:31

1997: cone shaped goal, round objects (innertubes), hexagonal field
1998: hexagonal goal, medium balls, hexagonal field
1999: octagonal puck, round floppies, square field
2000: triangular ramp, triangular goals, small balls, rectangular field
2001: triangular ramp (when not balanced), small and large balls, octagonal goals, rectangular field
2002: octagonal goals, soccer balls, rectangular field
2003: triangular ramp, square objects (boxes), rectangular field
2004: rectangular platforms, small and large balls, octagonal goals, rectangular field
2005: triangular objects (tetras), triangular goals, rectangular field

If someon HONESTLY sees a pattern in that, please explain it to me.

I think the Viking Death Ship has a lot more to do with this than we think...but in a very obscure way. IF it has anything to do with the Mythbusters episode, remember that their death ray was made from an octagonal array of mirrors - a shape that has been commonly used before.

Kev - who is sad to see the likelyhood of footballs and traffic cones slip away for another year.

sciguy125

22-11-2005, 00:56

If someon HONESTLY sees a pattern in that, please explain it to me.
(for all the following calculations, simply drop the decimals) Write every letter in the alphabet, then number them from 1-26. Multiply all the numbers for FIRST (6*9*18*19*20) and you get 369,360. Divide that by Dean Kamen's initials (44) and you get 8394. Subtract the year from that (ie 2005 -> 8394-2005=6389). Divide that by the sum of the sides of on the scoring objects and the field. Divide that by Kamen's initials again. The result will be a multiple of 4.

artdutra04

22-11-2005, 00:59

(for all the following calculations, simply drop the decimals) Write every letter in the alphabet, then number them from 1-26. Multiply all the numbers for FIRST (6*9*18*19*20) and you get 369,360. Divide that by Dean Kamen's initials (44) and you get 8394. Subtract the year from that (ie 2005 -> 8394-2005=6389). Divide that by the sum of the sides of on the scoring objects and the field. Divide that by Kamen's initials again. The result will be a multiple of 4.
And I thought I had too much free time... ;)

litchfieldc

22-11-2005, 09:54

My basis for the paper is this, if you place a liquid on the field, it would be almost impossible to clean. Paper on the other hand, can be cleaned with a vacume. The paper only came from me trying to imagine what game element would be involvoed that could limit traction, seeing as how so many people here think that is going to be one of the elements. My batons are flat idea came when I relized that it would be on of the only game objects that could be made from one piece of anything. In this case, probably pvc.

What is a speculation, but an idea not accepted by many

Danny Diaz

22-11-2005, 14:01

Finally, teams may be able to get autonomous working before ship date!

Actually, I've been working on a simulation environment in LabVIEW to allow me to test autonomous code on the RC without requiring silly things like a robot or even real sensors - who needs that which you can simulate? :D

-Danny

sciguy125

22-11-2005, 15:59

Divide that by the sum of the sides of on the scoring objects and the field...
I need to amend that to read:
"Divide that by the sum of the sides on the planar projection of the scoring objects and the field. i.e. a tetra is 3 sides, a box is 4 sides..."

Many have speculated a baton. However, per my theory, that would require a 5 or 6 sided field.

Assuming a traditional rectangular field, the scoring object would need 3, 5, 8, or 13 sides.

Assuming a hexagonal field, as apparently has been used in the past, the scoring objects would need 1, 3, 6, or 11 sides.

My prediction: for the last several years, the final number has not just been a multiple of 4, it has been a multiple of 12. That leaves us with the rectangular field and 8 sided object or hexagonal field and 6 sided object. Because of the complexity involved with building an 8 sided scoring object, I'm going with the hexagonal field with 6 sided object.

pyroslev

22-11-2005, 16:13

Patterns. I would almost bet money on the game resembling one of the past four years (Zone, Stack, Raise and Triple) in a major way. I would also count on there being a twist that will make jaws drop (It's dave's nature!).

Add in the fact that we are due for a game of boxes or balls.

2001 Balls and goals with ramp

2002 Balls with goals in zones

2003 Boxes and ramp

2004 Balls with platform, bar and goals

2005 Tetras and goals

It's a cycle. SOmething tells me boxes but not like were expecting.

artdutra04

22-11-2005, 17:11

I need to amend that to read:
"Divide that by the sum of the sides on the planar projection of the scoring objects and the field. i.e. a tetra is 3 sides, a box is 4 sides..."

Many have speculated a baton. However, per my theory, that would require a 5 or 6 sided field.

Assuming a traditional rectangular field, the scoring object would need 3, 5, 8, or 13 sides.

Assuming a hexagonal field, as apparently has been used in the past, the scoring objects would need 1, 3, 6, or 11 sides.

My prediction: for the last several years, the final number has not just been a multiple of 4, it has been a multiple of 12. That leaves us with the rectangular field and 8 sided object or hexagonal field and 6 sided object. Because of the complexity involved with building an 8 sided scoring object, I'm going with the hexagonal field with 6 sided object.
That sounds like something from Numb3rs (http://www.cbs.com/primetime/numb3rs/).

A six-sided object would be a cube or a rectuangular prism. This would not figure into the pattern of the recent FIRST games, in which even-numbered years use an odd-number-sided playing field object. This all seems pretty interesting that these patterns have been discovered, even though they may be very weird coincidences. What would the odds be that FIRST is actually following a set algorithim for determining their games each year? I'm guessing maybe infinity minus one to one against. Only in 45 days on January 7th will we really know. :yikes:

Andrew Blair

22-11-2005, 17:35

The only real thing you can rely on in the games is the need for a good, solid drivetrain, and a good lift or equivalent device. Every year, there has been carpet (sorry water people), and there has been something needing to be put somewhere higher. Maybe FIRST will repeal that "no throwing game objects" rule this year!

JoelP

22-11-2005, 18:58

Maybe they'll have us use the camera, infrared, or some sonar device to find the distance to a target and we'll have to program ballistics calculations to shoot the game object into the goal...catapults anyone?

sciguy125

22-11-2005, 20:44

That sounds like something from Numb3rs (http://www.cbs.com/primetime/numb3rs/).

A six-sided object would be a cube or a rectuangular prism.
Actually, I was going more along the lines of those people that perform an analysis on numbers in the bible and figure out the apocalypse.

As for the object, I meant what you would get if you flatten it. A cube would be 4 sides, a tetra would be 3... So a six-sided object would be some kind of extruded hexagon.

Ian Curtis

23-11-2005, 12:22

With all the talk about batons and my research into last year that found many people hit the pyramid hint right on the head, could it be that we will simply see the return of PVC goals?

Last year we guessed pyramids and got pyramids missing the insides. This year we guess batons and get batons missing the insides, or pvc goals?

(Also ironically at the FLL tournament I attended last weekend there where baton twirlers selling Kettle Korn at 3 bucks for a bag about a foot tall and 4 inches in diameter raising money to go to DC...) Is this some subtle game hint?

artdutra04

23-11-2005, 12:59

As for the object, I meant what you would get if you flatten it. A cube would be 4 sides, a tetra would be 3... So a six-sided object would be some kind of extruded hexagon.
Maybe there will be hexagonal mobile goals again?

All the speculation so far is about batons being used for the actual playing field object. But what if they weren't? Following FIRST's ball-nonball game pattern of the recent years, we're due for a ball game. What if the batons really represent parts of a goal? What if there is going to be really short goals this year? What if these batons would be connected to make a ladder-like goal? Or maybe a fence/barrier?

Batons are usually easily moved about and manupulated by a cheerleader or such, so would this mean that there will be all mobile goals on the field? Would this represent some sort of dynamic field element(s)? Or would there be goals that don't belong to any specific alliance color by default, but to the alliance that puts more balls into it (similar to tetra goal ownership)? Would robots be able to easily manipulate the balls, and score them into goals without a human player? Would human players somehow alter goal ownership?

For a person to be able to manipulate a baton, it takes practice and skill. Would this mean that there will be a very difficult task to do, that only a small number of teams can accomplish? Will the balls be odd shaped, like footballs? Would this mean that an arm/elevator would be practically necessary for the game?

And the speculation continues...

Just to clarify, when I said a six-sided object was a cube in my previous post, I was thinking of six faces on a cube.

alphastryk

23-11-2005, 13:00

Actually, I was going more along the lines of those people that perform an analysis on numbers in the bible and figure out the apocalypse.

As for the object, I meant what you would get if you flatten it. A cube would be 4 sides, a tetra would be 3... So a six-sided object would be some kind of extruded hexagon.

maybe some sort of hexagonal tube (baton + hex)? im not sure how useful that wierd numbers theory is though...pvc tubes would make more sense as game objects...wouldnt they have infinite sides because they are circles? hmm...

DonRotolo

23-11-2005, 17:50

Actually, I've been working on a simulation environment in LabVIEW to allow me to test autonomous code on the RC without requiring silly things like a robot or even real sensors - who needs that which you can simulate? :D
-Danny
...Which you'll publish of course?? That would a a great use of LabView!

Back to speculation: IMHO the time machine was just a random remark based on the few posts above it.
The comment about batons and 'whatever's lying around the office' are significant. Just how is the question.
Also significant is the exchange, clearly planned (look at the posting times!) between a worker and a 'supervisor'. At least he doesn't have to build the 'bus shelter' - probably a good thing, too - but the 'viking death ship' (VDS) is clearly needed for next week (some kind of demo, proof of concept). It is obviously not an actual VDS, but when looked at it sure looks like something you'd name that.

What are the salient features of a VDS? Well, it is boat-like in appearance (long and narrow), maybe a sail-like object above, perhaps many openings on the sides (oars originally).

Hexagonal field would work well for alliances, and make the video easier than a wide narrow field.
An area of the field that is hidden from the view of the humans would be sooo cool, forcing more to push the CMU cam, which was disappointingly underused last year. Located in the center? Maybe a ramp to get up & in for some kind of bonus?
Also think about costs and ease of manufacture. Tetras can be cranked out quickly/easily/cheaply, as were balls, whatever they pick as the movable object, they will need a zillion in a hurry, without breaking the bank. PVC pipe sections with balls on the ends (like a barbell)?
Goals like a wastebasket?
I also like the concept of the bots resetting the field somehow, so start condition and end condition are the same.

Dave's just sitting there giggling at how way off, and how close, we all are. January 7 is coming soon, but not soon enough.

Don

Kevin Watson

23-11-2005, 21:30

What are the salient features of a [viking death ship]. Well, two that come to mind are that it's on fire and it has a corpse on-board <grin>.

-Kevin

KarenH

24-11-2005, 01:37

Batons are usually easily moved about and manupulated by a cheerleader or such
That must be it!! The Human Players will have to manipulate the batons--twirl them without dropping them--for the whole match! Double points for twirling two instead of just one. And think of the safety advantage--no more interacting with those dangerous robots!

Now all we have to do is figure out what on earth the robots are supposed to do.

billbo911

24-11-2005, 12:09

Well, two that come to mind are that it's on fire and it has a corpse on-board <grin>.

-Kevin
Now, if we consider the emphasis on safety, I'd have to say fire will not be part of the game, at least not on purpose.
As for the corpse, that truly has some interesting possibilities. :yikes:

Andrew Blair

24-11-2005, 13:25

Would human players somehow alter goal ownership?

Maybe the human players have to beat each other with padded batons (like what the military uses for aggression training). The alliance with the most conscious member at the end gets to have their balls in goals count for double. I'm gonna go talk to the wrestling team...

Dan Petrovic

24-11-2005, 13:29

I bet the guys designing next year's game are having a whole lot of fun watching this.

Input:
In June we ran our own mini-competition, Mayhem IN Merrimack

When we were setting up the projector, an image appeared on the wall. It was like the animations that describe the game. It had the robots starting in their spots. And the field looked like a race-car track and the two ends were going up the diamond plate of the driver's station. It was like a racecar track half-pipe.

That's all I got. I don't know if someone did it for fun, or if they were actually working on the new game AND animation back in June.

dlavery

24-11-2005, 15:12

I bet the guys designing next year's game are having a whole lot of fun watching this.Yup.:DWhen we were setting up the projector, an image appeared on the wall. It was like the animations that describe the game. It had the robots starting in their spots. And the field looked like a race-car track and the two ends were going up the diamond plate of the driver's station. It was like a racecar track half-pipe.

That's all I got. I don't know if someone did it for fun, or if they were actually working on the new game AND animation back in June.
I think you mean this image:
http://www.team116.org/Images/CurlingBots.jpg
Which was discussed in this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36780).

-dave

Billfred

24-11-2005, 16:05

Yup.:D
I think you mean this image:
http://www.team116.org/Images/CurlingBots.jpg
Which was discussed in this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36780).

-dave
Is it bad that I never noticed there weren't gates on the game animation field?

And is that the 2004-era Blue-robot-with-an-obscenely-huge-jointed-arm in the background?

dlavery

24-11-2005, 18:44

Is it bad that I never noticed there weren't gates on the game animation field?
The gates were removed for this game so that it would be easier to get the Zamboni in and out when the field was resurfaced after each round.
And is that the 2004-era Blue-robot-with-an-obscenely-huge-jointed-arm in the background?
Yup.

Billfred

24-11-2005, 19:41

The gates were removed for this game so that it would be easier to get the Zamboni in and out when the field was resurfaced after each round.
Oh?

http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Section_3-The_Arena_rev_B.pdf (Page 4)

;)

EricH

25-11-2005, 14:06

alphastryk

26-11-2005, 11:10

hey - i was thinking...fox in the henhouse:

maybe you have to steal something from the other alliance? like a game of CTF? that would be awesome.

Andrew Blair

26-11-2005, 11:28

^ that'd be a violent game.....I like it!!:D

Rafi Ahmed

26-11-2005, 20:22

Wow, Robotics CTF. That would kill Halo 2 CTF!!!! :D

JamesBrown

26-11-2005, 23:00

We're all reading too deep into Dave's hints. Dave, have you had to redesign the game yet? :D :D I mean, we have the following thrown out: batons as game objects, balls somewhere, stuff scattering, tricky area on field. SOMEONE has to have gotten something right, forcing you to have the GDC do a redesign and forcing you to do more hints....just to confuse us all. :rolleyes:

It is actually the opposite, Dave makes up the hint then they use our speculation to design the game, the whole time allowing us to believe we are just good at guessing.

Rafi Ahmed

27-11-2005, 16:50

So dave can you give us another hint? :D

Some Random Guy

27-11-2005, 17:15

I just read through this entire thread, so my brain is throbbing. Anyways, here's a little thing I picked up on:

About halfway through the thread, someone pointed out that henhouse=coop=co-op

A bit later, someone mentioned an old game, with everyone on one team, called Co-operation.

Combining this with the time machine and "you already have it" comments, is it possible that this year's game will be a throwback to Co-operation?

Ryan Foley

27-11-2005, 17:50

Maybe there will be hexagonal mobile goals again?

Oh good, Zone Zeal meets Dyabolical Dynamics meets FIRST Frenzy. Balance the 180lb Zone Zeal goals on the teeter totter bridge from 2001, THEN hang from a pull up bar that is attached to the teeter totter (directly above the bridge's balance point of course).

Oh, and dont forget to cap the goals with a tetra or doubler ball. :D

Rafi Ahmed

27-11-2005, 17:54

So if any wants to know about Co-operation, here's the game manual (http://www2.usfirst.org/2000comp/TheGame.pdf)

litchfieldc

28-11-2005, 10:05

Hmm. This seems interesting. In the 2000 game, you could hang from a bar to gain points. Then, in 2003 (maybe 2004 my memory is awful) you could hang from a bar to gain points. I notice that every year there is an "last minute points goal" (making it back to base, hanging from a bar, etc.) If we look 3 or four years back, we may know what our "last minute points goal" will be. As well, I think that maybe the slick surface that everyone is speculating about might be provided by our robots. We maybe be provided with wheels that are studed with free spinning ball bearings. That way, we have a slick surface that no one has to clean up. Thats just what I think though.

What is a speculation, but an idea not accepted by many?

KelliV

28-11-2005, 10:43

Then, in 2003 (maybe 2004 my memory is awful) you could hang from a bar to gain points.
2003 was Stack attack and you had to stay on the "ice" on top of the ramp to gain last minute points. In 2004 First Frenzy there was the bar hanging.

pyroslev

28-11-2005, 12:19

Odd Robot Out.

Fifteen seconds, your robot is disabled. End of fifteen seconds, your reenabled and another robot is disabled. That would almost top CTF and King of the Hill ideas.

My random idea for the day.

sciguy125

28-11-2005, 12:26

Random autonomous period! Autonomous starts at some random point in the match and lasts a random amount of time (5-30 seconds).

jdiwnab

28-11-2005, 12:35

I don't see how the last 2 posts reflect speculation on a hint. Good ideas, though. But I don't think they would work very vell. Random automous, both in time and duration, would cause heroroids in programmers. When it enters automous, you don't know where you are or how long you have to accomplish anything. Odd robot out would cause confusion on whether you robot was disabled or temporarly deactivated.

Random loss of control would create havoc for programmer and for stratagy. But, for all we know, that is what Dave wants to do.

artdutra04

28-11-2005, 16:38

Because of all this, for the 2006 game - expect to see a harder, longer, and more sophisticated autonomous mode with multiple tasks of varying difficulty levels.
I don't know if anyone else here saw it, but the FIRST Vex Challenge autonomous period has recently been upped to 45 seconds. (Linkage: http://www2.usfirst.org/vex/2005-06/Chapter_2_Half_Pipe_Hustle_rev_11_23_05.pdf) Can this be a sign of things to come for FRC? ;) Will my prediction from page three of this thread come true? Does anyone else think this may be subtle hint, or is it just a random coincidence?

JP_1163

28-11-2005, 17:28

I have been working on this all summer.....

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

:yikes:

Rod

28-11-2005, 17:59

I have been working on this all summer.....

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

:yikes:
That is truly amazing. How in the world did you do that?

teamtestbot

28-11-2005, 18:56

I have been working on this all summer.....

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

:yikes:
Incredible...

dlavery

28-11-2005, 18:59

I have been working on this all summer.....

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

:yikes:

Hey! How did you get a hold of the plans for the 2007 game??!?!!

Andrew Blair

28-11-2005, 19:04

^ If I had a dollar for every time I thought we'd get a legitimate hint....Well, I might have a few dollars...

Cuog

28-11-2005, 20:10

The only people who I know who are really dismayed are some people who are hard-core programmers who are pouting that now n00bs will be able to do their stuff too.

However, this leaves room for the hardcore hackers to build an easy base and then go on from there, right?

And it *should* help get n00bs into the program, which is always good, especially for rookie teams.

Thats the point, I took a class laering how to do advanced programming in C# and JAVA then I spent all summer and thanksgiving applying what I have learned to build an autonomous mode for this years robot with the CMU cam not to mention all the code printout my teachers have taken away from me because i was modifying my code on paper instead of reading the boring shakespeare

I also have used the VEX easyC mess and it is awful, yeah you can see the code and it looks just like it would if you typed it but you go through a ton of dialog boxes to get one line of code, its aweful,

noobs should go through what I went through, ten hours of programming a week and they will come out truly able to program, when the world is run by GUI programming environments our programs will stop accelerating

In my opinion the only thing worth using a GUI program to program is another GUI becuase in that case it is pointless constance code that it would be easier to write your own editor than to hard code it yourself

StephLee

28-11-2005, 21:59

I have been working on this all summer.....

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

:yikes:

WOW....my head is spinning, that's awesome.

Rafi Ahmed

28-11-2005, 22:40

I have been working on this all summer.....

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

:yikes:

Now.......(pant)...... thats.....(pant)........just..........(pant)...... incredible.............(pant)

Arkorobotics

28-11-2005, 22:41

WOW....my head is spinning, that's awesome.
WOAH! You have a lot of time!

Kyle Love

29-11-2005, 00:12

One thing is for sure, no hint will save us sleep during the build season. :rolleyes: I'm still for a multi-task, multi-scoring object game.

Cyber Punk 234

29-11-2005, 07:50

lol dude thats so cool!

Petey

29-11-2005, 09:13

Hey! How did you get a hold of the plans for the 2007 game??!?!!

*head explodes*

That's it. I'm done with the hint analyzing.

BUT WHAT IF HE MEANS THERE WILL BE BALLSshut up, me.

--Petey

litchfieldc

29-11-2005, 09:58

*head explodes*

That's it. I'm done with the hint analyzing.

BUT WHAT IF HE MEANS THERE WILL BE BALLSshut up, me.

--Petey

I got it. That hint is a scouting element. The robots will have to find the plans for the locations of the goals for the next match. Then they will report back to base and recieve much cheering and congratulations. :] Thats it, I think I've lost it. Congratulations Mr. Lavery, you've beaten me. You have officially driven me insane.

dlavery

29-11-2005, 12:56

Congratulations Mr. Lavery, you've beaten me. You have officially driven me insane.

heh heh heh. I've only just begun.... :ahh:

Billfred

29-11-2005, 13:01

Thats it, I think I've lost it. Congratulations Mr. Lavery, you've beaten me. You have officially driven me insane.
For a FIRSTer since 2003, I must applaud you on holding out so long. I started in 2004, and I've already turned my room into a padded room.

Andrew Blair

29-11-2005, 18:07

For a FIRSTer since 2003, I must applaud you on holding out so long. I started in 2004, and I've already turned my room into a padded room.

You mean a padded PARTY room, right?

Dan Petrovic

29-11-2005, 18:38

heh heh heh. I've only just begun.... :ahh:

A HINT!111 *freaks out*

Something about... beginning...

Cuog

29-11-2005, 21:19

For a FIRSTer since 2003, I must applaud you on holding out so long. I started in 2004, and I've already turned my room into a padded room.

Padding, D'oh thats what I forgot,

In another few weeks im gonna get my obsessive self moving and follow and overanalyze every one of his posts

litchfieldc

30-11-2005, 09:58

No more! Please, everybody stop looking so deeply into Mr. Lavery's hints. I'm going crazy reading how deep some people are going into this. Then again... that could be a hint... (Smacking sound as I hit my head). NO! STOP :ahh:

dlavery

30-11-2005, 12:50

This is not a hint.

Or is it?

-dave

Cuog

30-11-2005, 13:59

Logan Byers

30-11-2005, 17:04

But where's the fun in that?

Andrew Blair

30-11-2005, 17:24

This is not a hint.

Or is it?

-dave

Maybe we just have to stop analyzing his posts and let him analyze ours.

i.e.- HEY DAVE!!! Team 306 has prototyped a device that breaks every rule, wins every game, and all without cheating.... Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe...Or maybe not...or maybe............................................. .................................................. .................:D

Logan Byers

30-11-2005, 17:37

Team 306 has prototyped a device that breaks every rule, wins every game, and all without cheating

Breaks every rule, but does it without cheating?
I think that's a "maybe not" on the device prototype.

As for analyzing posts... what would we waste 243 (and counting) posts on instead? It's just too much fun to give up our over-analyzing!

litchfieldc

30-11-2005, 18:46

But that's no fun. :D

Belldandyspaz

30-11-2005, 19:44

i have searched through most of the hints and figured out a list of possible truths and lies. in a really organized fashion

Possible Truths
 Maybe an element of last year’s game will be in it
 Relay race type thing
 Points by time
 Maybe a horse type game
 3 ways to score
 teams working together un-opposed to wrack up as many points
 vision by camera in game
 objects obstructing view of driver
 rods or sticks
 fine motor skills for robot
 different robots starting at different times
 event causing things to be released all over field
 shelter areas for protection from something
 moats
 autonomous mode at end of game

Possible Lies
 underwater game (picture of waterproof control thingy hoax)
 no metal
 no fasteners

any one want to add to this list?

EricH

30-11-2005, 20:20

Possible Truths
 Maybe an element of last year’s game will be in it
 Relay race type thing
 Points by time
 Maybe a horse type game
 3 ways to score
 teams working together un-opposed to wrack up as many points
 vision by camera in game
 objects obstructing view of driver
 rods or sticks
 fine motor skills for robot
 different robots starting at different times
 event causing things to be released all over field
 shelter areas for protection from something
 moats
 autonomous mode at end of game

Possible Lies
 underwater game (picture of waterproof control thingy hoax)
 no metal
 no fasteners

any one want to add to this list?
Oh, good. Someone made a list of things we've uncovered/guessed at. Although "lies" is a bit strong (try "hoaxes"), and the "possible" on that part should be "probable" due to reasons discussed earlier, this is a very good list and has pretty much all of the items. Now, if we just put them together, we'll force Dave to redesign the game with only 30-odd days left. :D :ahh:

My interpretation (as may have been seen in part before):The game objects will be batons (or something similar) and/or balls. The camera will make its appearance again, possibly to aid the drivers in locating something that is hidden. Something will be released onto the field when something else is done, possibly crossing a moat. There will likely be at least one other element of a previous game (your choice which game/element). There will be autonomous at some point. One thing ommitted from the list: a difficult surface in the field somewhere, probably in the middle.

That's my somewhat crazy attempt to decipher the hints. Next?

Andrew Blair

30-11-2005, 20:26

For example, the FP motor issue was a vendor supply problem. FIRST (and parts of Fischer-Price) thought they had the same motor/gearbox as last year. It was only after the teams really started to dig into the performance of the motors that the problem was discovered. FIRST responded, got in touch with Fischer-Price, and they both worked out a solution as quickly as they could to correct the problem as best as possible. Kudos to both Fischer-Price and FIRST for jumping on this (and the solution now leaves us with an even larger set of design possibilities than just replacing all the 6v motors with 12v motors!).

I think this is a legitimate clue that dave spoke about during build last year. I really don't know exactly what it means, but it is a potential clue. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=336815#post336815

What I'm thinking is, when FP messed up, and they are a great sponsor, don't get me wrong, but I think they offered us another deal of some sort. Thats how nice they are. They mess up a practical donation, then try to make up for it. Anyways, I feel that we may be able to look forward to a new motor next year.