CoreChart - What do you think? [Archive]

JJG13

13-11-2005, 15:33

What do you think about CoreChart (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm)...
I personally find it easier and faster to write code out line by line, I wont be using it... what about you?

I don't like "icon languages" such as this but I suppose it would be good for a teams with no programmers that just need to throw something simple together. Plus it costs $99 :eek:. That's a little steep when we get mcc for free.

I am curious if the compiler converts the icon-code into c and then compiles that or if it compiles the icon-code directly. If its the former than I could easily make something similar and charge half the price.

Astronouth7303

13-11-2005, 16:25

It looks interesting (might even be able to get the mentors off my back), but I prefer real code to wysiwyg systems.

Frankly, I would like to hear of a team that uses this and how well they did.

I am curious if the compiler converts the icon-code into c and then compiles that or if it compiles the icon-code directly. If its the former than I could easily make something similar and charge half the price.

It appears to go straight to ASM, then assembles and links that. This seems to have the advantage of side-stepping mcc18 (it comes with the assembler and linker).

It was also made in VB6, so I very seriously believe you could make the same thing and charge half the price. (and be twice as complete, too!) It also seems fairly simple in the file format.

BrianBSL

13-11-2005, 17:16

I voted I don't like it at all, although maybe I'll change my mind someday. It almost seems like its taking a step backwards in terms of ease of use, it's not surprising that it goes straight to assembly as each block seems like they're straight out of the PIC instruction set.

As far as I'm concerned, if you are going to dumb it down to icons, you should make the user not have to understand all of the specifics about the PIC - if you look at http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChart_FR_Programming.pdf it looks like something out of the PIC datasheet or an assembly class, not something that makes programming the PIC easier. I understand it, but only because I've been using the PIC's for a while. If you ask me, the EasyC approach (the Vex programming software) is a much better approach, as not only does it make it easier, but with the fact that you can see the C code you are writing, it makes you learn C as well.

I'm not saying that programming the PIC in C is the way to go - the overhead is too much for this processor line and the complicated things some FRC teams want to do (mainly in terms of the number of instructions that must be executed to run an ISR, half of which is thanks to the floating point library), but if we're trying to make it easier, CoreChart is not the solution. If you want more efficiency, write the code in assembly yourself.

hoag

13-11-2005, 20:45

If you install CoreChart and look at the last mpasm assembler source file in mplab.ini, it's SourceFile=D:\tetris\tetris3t.ASM.
I just thought it was funny, everyone loves tetris :p

bear24rw

13-11-2005, 21:19

I agree with what everyone has said about...

Has anyone else noticed the BASIC commands such as Label and Goto... thats defiently not C lol...

If it is true that it is written in VB6...
i know that all .NET projects are compiled when they are run, so that makes them very, very easy to decompile... im not sure if this is the same for VB6 but if it is the case, i wont be suprised to see it get decompiled and released as freeware, or get modified in another way.

I think if they wanted to help new programmers, they should make it write out acuall C code, so the user can make the flow chart and then look at the output file and go "OHH, so thats how you would do it!", by compiling strait to asm, it really defietes the purpous...

Rickertsen2

13-11-2005, 21:33

I it looks like something out of the PIC datasheet

Thats because some of the content is copied verbatum from the pic datasheet. Look at page 17 and then look at page 134 of the 18f8520 datasheet. See any similarities?

My first reaction to this software was that i felt threatened by it. It looked to me like something out of lego mindstorms. Now that i have learned a bit more about it, it doesn't seem like a whole lot more than a graphical assembler which is kinda nifty in my opinoin. I might try it out, but not for FIRST.

ahecht

13-11-2005, 21:53

I'm surprised the CoreChart spammers haven't hit this thread already. They already filled all the other threads that mentioned CoreChart with their marketing material, and emailed everyone who even mentioned it (I commented on their web site in a post and got a marketing email).

Dave Scheck

16-11-2005, 13:22

<EDIT>I originally posted this in reference to CoreChart. I was mistaken and the software that I decribe below is actually the Vex software.</EDIT>

Here are my initial thoughts.

Pros:
- It is pretty easy to get started. Just drop a few blocks out and away you go.
- I liked how they lined the code up with the blocks. I think that will help new people make the transition to real coding.

Cons:
- I quickly found that there was no undo button
- No switch block or if-else if-else block. This made for some nasty nesting. Instead ofif(x > 200)
{
...
}
else if(x > 100)
{
...
}
else if(x > 50)
{
...
}
else
{
...
}You end up withif(x > 200)
{
...
}
else
{
if( x > 100)
{
...
}
else
{
if(x > 50)
{
...
}
else
{
...
}
}
}- Inability to select more than one block (i.e. for deletion or commenting)
- There is no way to collapse nested statements
- There is no way to utilize multiple files and/or create libraries.
- I didn't see any support for functions/subroutines
- I created a variable and used it in multiple places then decided to change the name of it. The program did not automatically change all instances of that variable and I saw no easy way to do this other than editing each block that referred to the old variable.
- There is no support for symbolic constants
- The loader is extremely slow. It took longer for me to download a "Hello World" program than it did to download our full RC code from last year
- It looks like the I/O is being done via interrupts since there is no explicit call to read/write. I had a while loop that incremented/decremented a variable and assigned it to a motor value and I think that I was changing the motor value faster than the interrupt. The outward symptom was that the motor wasn't ramping consistently.

Overall, I don't see this product as being useful for teams that are trying to do anything other than simple I/O. It just doesn't offer the flexibility needed to efficiently write software.

Dave Flowerday

16-11-2005, 13:54

I played around with the CoreChart software last night. Here are my initial thoughts.
If you're talking about the software we were playing with at our field last night, that wasn't CoreChart... it was the Vex software which is different ;).

Dave Scheck

16-11-2005, 14:15

I just realized that...doh... :o ...

Gdeaver

17-11-2005, 23:49

Before every one starts trashing Easy-C, remember this is the first released version. Easy-C is a work in progress. There are limitations in this release. The else if I believe is addressed along with many other things in version 2.0 which should be released soon. Even with the limitations I've duplicated our 2005 code functionality in VEX and Easy-C. I've witnessed that glassy eyed dazed look on many a 9 grader's face when presented with MPlAB. So far with easy-c they become engaged and start asking questions. I believe Easy-C and Vex offer an excellent platform to ease young students into First robotics. Give Intelitec time to mature the product.

Miroslav

25-11-2005, 23:38

[QUOTE=JJG13]I don't like "icon languages" such as this but I suppose it would be good for a teams with no programmers that just need to throw something simple together. Plus it costs $99 :eek:. That's a little steep when we get mcc for free.

By the way we are offering CoreChartFR for FREE for the FRC FIRST 2006 competitions!

We are keen to create a more level playing field for the beginner or novice programmers to use an industry strength graphical assembler to program the IFI controllers.

We offer technical support to those FIRST teams who are using CoreChartFR. The feedback from industry mentors about CoreChartFR have been very positive.

CoreChart robotics / embedded software skills development have been used to raised hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Commerce Department (or Economic Development Boards as we call them in Australia) and electronics and non electronics businesses (banks, mining companies, car and wine manufacters etc) in order to sustain a long term development of a niche microchip embedded software industry. As a result thousands of students are learning CoreChart linked to science and mathematics curriculum.

The reason: to lessen the impact of the "Economic Tsunami" of billions of dollars of cheap imports from the low cost production centres in the world that is wiping out thousands of businesses and jobs!

We hope we can all collaborate to solve this global problem!

Good luck.

Miroslav Kostecki

Elgin Clock

25-11-2005, 23:58

Miroslav

26-11-2005, 02:30

So they finally released the knowledge about this program eh??

I found that site a few months back (May or June to be exact).

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=387745&postcount=7

That's what I was referring to by saying what I did in that thread.

Hopefully having the company who made that program based in Adelaide, South Australia will open up a opportunity for sponsorship to allow the first Autralian FIRST team this year.

We will try to get a team from here. Perhaps with your support we could even get a team from Singapore because we have conducted CoreChart Robotic Workshops in Singapore for hundreds of High School students. They love using CoreChart. These students are mentored by University students and Industry mentors.

In order to invite more teams to participate in the FIRST Robotic Competitions what is the best way of making everyone aware that eLabtronics is sponsoring FRC FIRST Robotic Competition with FREE CoreChartFR software?

BrianBSL

26-11-2005, 09:44

We are keen to create a more level playing field for the beginner or novice programmers to use an industry strength graphical assembler to program the IFI controllers.

....

CoreChart robotics / embedded software skills development have been used to raised hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Commerce Department (or Economic Development Boards as we call them in Australia) and electronics and non electronics businesses (banks, mining companies, car and wine manufacters etc) in order to sustain a long term development of a niche microchip embedded software industry. As a result thousands of students are learning CoreChart linked to science and mathematics curriculum.

I understand that CoreChart is a graphical assembler - but I am still not convinced of its application to FIRST. It requires a huge understanding of how the internals of the PIC work, and I believe some serious assembly experience. I think it could be an excellent tool for teaching highschool students assembly and the architecture of the PIC microcontroller, but I really don't think its going to make coding for the FIRST competition any easier than in C.

In fact, I really think it would be more work. Take a look at the .LST file that mcc outputs from your code - every line is one instruction cycle (4 clock cycles), and every line with an assembly instruction (movwf, movff, iorwf, andwf, etc) would be a block in core chart. It's a good way to show how your code looks so simple in C but ends up being inefficient, but I don't think its a good way to make programming any easier.

Shouldn't the point of coding with one of these "chart programming" things be to have every team - from experienced ones to rookies - have an autonomous mode that does something? CoreChart puts you at such a low level (being assembly), that I see even experienced teams not being able to create autonomous modes on it.

Eldarion

30-12-2005, 20:11

I agree with the people that said it is faster to write code line-by-line.

Also, standard coding allows much more flexibility. Can you imagine having to write a software-based serial tranceiver with this software? :ahh:

A third point that I brought up before is that this cheapens the programming end somewhat, as now an autonomous mode isn't anything special. :(

I for one will NOT be using this software! But then again, I am biased towards standard coding anyway... :rolleyes:

Billfred

30-12-2005, 20:16

A third point that I brought up before is that this cheapens the programming end somewhat, as now an autonomous mode isn't anything special. :(
With the placement of autonomous operation in the past three FRC games as it's been, autonomous is so essential that having an autonomous mode SHOULD NOT be anything special. To be competitive in many scenarios, you have to have one, even if it's a simple unfolding routine. So any sort of program or method that lets teams who may not have ubergeeks doing programming create a decent autonomous mode is a winner in my book.

Andrew Blair

30-12-2005, 20:30

Billfred, I agree. Autonomous hasn't been made unspecial yet! Thats where we want to go. Corechart hasn't done anything to programmer's pride yet, and I doubt it will. Actual C code will offer more flexibility most likely. If CoreChart takes off, I think it will be used by inexperienced teams, to get an autonomous off the ground. I agree however that assembly is rather low level for FIRST, and I don't have time to learn the PIC's architechture in a week. So, I'll be using whatever get's what I want done faster. That's what Corechart will end up being used for I think. If Corechart is as bad as has been said, and will out-program FIRST programmers, then we have some pretty poor programmers. Or, Corechart is a great innovation and will revolutionize programming. Who doesn't want something that makes their life eaiser and better? We'll find out soon: CoreChart is offering their software free to FIRST teams.

Cuog

30-12-2005, 20:47

I think that it would be a good idea for people that do not really want to learn to code that much but still want to be a programmer, I personally beleive that every "programmer" should be able to open a blank notepad page and be able to write a program that will compile and run.

Astronouth7303

30-12-2005, 20:49

So any sort of program or method that lets teams who may not have ubergeeks doing programming create a decent autonomous mode is a winner in my book.

Agreed. But CoreChart doesn't even have a version of the default code (that I can see). It also lacks any higher-level syntax of C (an oxymoron!)

function arguments & return values
macros & aliases (preprocessor)
loops
switch
if-else and if-else if-else
extened if's
local variables
no data types other than byte and bit

Without pre-made libraries (or even with), it would take an expert programmer to write using this (a very stupid one, since any such expert programmer would prefer notepad to this).

If you're going to make a graphical flow-chart-inspired program like this, you need a lot more encapsulation than that.

We can glean a few things from the CoreChart help file, seeing the reference to "IFRC2006" (assuming it's not a typo seen everywhere).

They're working with IFI on the next game
We'll likely see it in the kit :(
There'll be no major changes to the controller (the image in the help file is identical to last year's)

Astronouth7303

30-12-2005, 20:51

I personally beleive that every "programmer" should be able to open a blank notepad page and be able to write a program that will compile and run.

In C, with this compiler, that is indeed a programmer that knows his stuff. :rolleyes:

Andrew Blair

30-12-2005, 20:59

For confirmation's sake, I point everyone to this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40988

CoreChart will be available free to any FIRST team. However, whether they have an actual affiliation with FIRST or not is another story, for another time. Like in 8 days.;)

Astronouth7303

03-01-2006, 21:40

http://www.ifirobotics.com/edu-rc.shtml#Programming

I'm pretty sure they do. :ahh:

phrontist

03-01-2006, 21:48

People who complain that CoreChart is too easy are missing the point. Skill in software engineering is all about algorithmic understanding and intuition. Implemenation is an important, but ultimately secondary, concern. Programming languages are more or less arbitrary.

That said, I really like C. C is an industry standard for a reason, it gives you almost as much control as assembler, but allows for abstraction. It is, for me, perfectly placed on the abstraction/control continuum.

Eldarion

03-01-2006, 22:58

That said, I really like C. C is an industry standard for a reason, it gives you almost as much control as assembler, but allows for abstraction. It is, for me, perfectly placed on the abstraction/control continuum.

Very well said! This is exactly what I was trying to say (albiet very poorly) earlier.

As a side note, I am always concerned that this stuff will make it easy at the expense of the programmer actually learning about the algorithms. A graphical envronment encourages that, as you can have a high level block (such as "Execute PID") that is just there to use, but you don't have to actually know anything about a PID loop to use it!

dlavery

03-01-2006, 23:00

http://www.ifirobotics.com/edu-rc.shtml#Programming

I'm pretty sure they do. :ahh:

All that does is document that CoreChart will work with the IFI controllers, which are sold to a larger audience than just FIRST teams. There are many IFI-supporrted items that are not included in the Kit Of Parts and are not applicable/available to FIRST teams. We may yet learn on Saturday that CoreChart is one such item.

-dave

Miroslav

05-01-2006, 17:17

All that does is document that CoreChart will work with the IFI controllers, which are sold to a larger audience than just FIRST teams. There are many IFI-supporrted items that are not included in the Kit Of Parts and are not applicable/available to FIRST teams. We may yet learn on Saturday that CoreChart is one such item.

-dave

The FREE CoreChartFR for FRC2006 could lead to multi-million dollar eLabtronics sponsorships to create large scale smart kids and IPs in order to lessen the impact of the "Economic Tsunami" that is destroying jobs and businesses everywhere.

phrontist

05-01-2006, 18:39

The FREE CoreChartFR for FRC2006 could lead to multi-million dollar eLabtronics sponsorships to create large scale smart kids and IPs in order to lessen the impact of the "Economic Tsunami" that is destroying jobs and businesses everywhere.

Huh?!

Astronouth7303

05-01-2006, 19:22

Huh?!

Look at his alliances. Look at his posts. Put 2 & 2 together. (Let's just say, there is a large, GP-shaped hole.)

Mandi_|<o>|

13-01-2006, 11:09

Miroslav

18-01-2006, 21:03

Hi all!-`o´-(internal joke)
Mandi and Gunter here, Brazilians programmers!
We have just tested the program, and liked a bit the idea...it's freakin' wild to someone who doesn't know the C language a lot...and is beginning now at FIRST...
that's all for now!
See you!
:eek:

We are very happy to help your team with the free easy to use CoreChartFR software. We would like to be your mentors for programming the robot and can help you with any examples you may need or questions you have. Please email me directly with any requests.

Jared Russell

18-01-2006, 21:20

We will try to get a team from here. Perhaps with your support we could even get a team from Singapore because we have conducted CoreChart Robotic Workshops in Singapore for hundreds of High School students. They love using CoreChart. These students are mentored by University students and Industry mentors.

In order to invite more teams to participate in the FIRST Robotic Competitions what is the best way of making everyone aware that eLabtronics is sponsoring FRC FIRST Robotic Competition with FREE CoreChartFR software?
Singapore already has at least two Vex teams - as a matter of fact they are visiting us (team 341) as they wait for the Delaware regional as I type this! We have been working with them for a year now - I can tell by the look in the eyes of the Singaporean kids when they test drove Miss Daisy in Atlanta that they certainly want to get into FRC!

Their Vex bot won the pilot at Nationals last year, so they're pretty bright too ;)

john_smith

10-06-2006, 10:57

They love using CoreChart. These students are mentored by University students and Industry mentors.

Strange. I am one of such students and EVERYONE i know completely hates the software - it is total garbage!

I agree with the people that said it is faster to write code line-by-line.

How right you are. Every time I use this software, I wish I was using Notepad to edit the ASM file directly.

Also, standard coding allows much more flexibility. Can you imagine having to write a software-based serial tranceiver with this software? :ahh:

Been there, done that. Almost went insane doing so. There was not a single aspect of that code that CoreChart didn't try to mangle.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5089/error5vx.png
That is an original screenshot from the software. No kidding.
When that error occurs, you lose ALL your saved work - sometimes CoreChart even smashes your saved work!