2006 KOP Wish List

[Andrew Blair]

As the 2006 season draws near, I'm wondering what people are hoping for in the kit. This can extend into anything, programming, frames, motors, gearboxes, sensors, material, etc. Post away, because I'm sure I don't have everything in the poll.

(I figured this is a good time for this as any, nothing we say will have an effect on it. The KOP is shipped or will be shortly! Just a little while before sleep deprivation sets in...)

[Cory]

Definitely a larger variety of pneumatics.

I think we're fine as far as motors go.

The kitbot is fine, the kit transmissions are good as well.

Pneumatics is really the only place we haven't seen any significant upgrades in years (unless you count the practically useless rotary piston we were allowed).

[Billfred]

The kitbot is gold. Let it be--well, unless you feel like dropping in some AM Shifters instead. :D I wouldn't mind a couple more of the smaller motors, like the Keyang seat motor of 2004 vintage, to make things interesting, but we can do well either way. I'm neutral on pneumatics, as my team has yet to really use them. (Gripe #1: Limited firing ability. Perhaps some larger accumulators would help?)

I'll be very interested to see what happens in the sensor department. The CMUcam this year felt a bit like drinking from a fire hose, so I'm hoping either for something a little simpler to work with. (Of course, that can be accomplished with the game objectives as well.)

The one thing I'd flip over: Good pots.

[petek]

Sure would be great if the FIRST Santa put some nice ball-bearing encoders (http://embrace.grayhill.com/embrace/IMAGES/PDF/I-44-45.pdf) in our stockings. Especially since there is never very deep stock on these things.

[lukevanoort]

Replace everything with FPs and CIMs ;)

[Bill_Hancoc]

I vote new geraboxes. Some teams cant fford to have a gearbox made or arnt capable of making their own but the ones last year were so HEAVY with 2 cims i think they tipped (or broke) the scales at 22lbs EACH!

[Cory]

I vote new geraboxes. Some teams cant fford to have a gearbox made or arnt capable of making their own but the ones last year were so HEAVY with 2 cims i think they tipped (or broke) the scales at 22lbs EACH!

It should have been fairly easy for teams to either drill out/find someone to drill out the gears in the gearbox.

That'd be a very simple way to cut quite a bit of weight.

[Elgin Clock]

It should have been fairly easy for teams to either drill out/find someone to drill out the gears in the gearbox.

That'd be a very simple way to cut quite a bit of weight.

Yep.. I remember ours maybe weighing 22lbs combined.

Drilling out the gears = good, as long as you do it right.

[sciguy125]

I think the kits should include a 2007 game hint.

[Andrew Blair]

Haha, nope, once kickoff comes, I won't care about 2007! Now the closing letter...:)

[Billfred]

I think the kits should include a 2007 game hint.I'll use my psychic powers...

The 2007 game will include robots of some sort.

--dave

[Ian Curtis]

More RAM in the RC would be a nice gift from the extra-ordinarily nice people at IFI. Also, maybe some PWM cables that like to plug in, instead of being mean and going in beside the receptors.

Also, how about more of those sticky notes that say "Things to do yesterday..."! :D

[Alan Anderson]

Black CH FlightSticks.

[Cory]

Black CH FlightSticks.

How on earth could I forget this.

This would be the greatest (re)addition to the kit ever

[Jay Trzaskos]

The KOP last yearwas awesome...

But heres the rundown:
Kitbot = awesome
Kit transmissions = awesome
# of motors = awesome
Type of motors = awesome
... anyone else seeing where im heading with this?

The only department I really have no part in, so therefore would know nothing aboutneeding more/different, is sensors. So bring on the '06 KOP and whatever new innovations and headaches (cough cough CMU cough cam cough cough) it may include.

JT
229

[Conor Ryan]

Ambidextrous control sticks would probably be the best possible addition to the kit.

Other than that, I like the idea of more pneumatics, maybe some more roller chain and a larger variety of sprockets, so we can see some variation in the teams that use the Kit bots. Also maybe 6 wheels instead of the standard 4 wheels?

[dez250]

How about some "cable chain"... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[JVN]

Ambidextrous control sticks would probably be the best possible addition to the kit.

Other than that, I like the idea of more pneumatics, maybe some more roller chain and a larger variety of sprockets, so we can see some variation in the teams that use the Kit bots. Also maybe 6 wheels instead of the standard 4 wheels?

Okay guys, time for a quick paradigm shift.
(With or without a clutch, up to you.)

We need to remember that everything going into the KOP costs $$$. A $5 part costs FIRST $5 x 1000ish teams = $5000. This is not trivial.

If they spend money on an item for the kit, the goal is obviously to make it an item which would be as highly utilized as possible, while remaining cost effective. They want as much bang for their buck as possible.

This is why when Paul and I were brainstorming the Kit Transmission, we came up with a highly adaptable ratio, which could be used for a variety of drivetrain speeds. We came up with a housing which could be mounted in many different ways. We came up with a method by which 2 transmissions could be combined to form a high-reduction arm gearbox. We also had to build it to be robust enough to survive life in as many conceivable applications as possible. We had to make it virtuous enough that teams would use it while still keeping the costs low enough that FIRST could afford it.

Why is it 'too heavy'?
Simple -- it needed to be robust, and was designed as such. However, it costs FIRST money to drill lightening patterns in the gears. It costs teams nothing but time to do so.

Not to pick on Conor, but if FIRST put 10 sprocket sizes in the kit, and most teams pick and use 1 size, then they've essentially wasted money on 9 sprockets per team. This is not a good thing. Instead, they must strive to include a single size that a lot of teams will use. (This is just an example).

It is all about bang for your buck.
-JV

[ChuckDickerson]

...if FIRST put 10 sprocket sizes in the kit, and most teams pick and use 1 size, then they've essentially wasted money on 9 sprockets per team. This is not a good thing. Instead, they must strive to include a single size that a lot of teams will use. (This is just an example).

It is all about bang for your buck.
-JV

First off, I think the kitbot chassis and kit gearboxes are great for both rookie and veteran teams. They are both robust and flexible while keeping costs low for FIRST. If teams want to modify them like lightening the gearboxes or choping up the frame they are free to do so. I agree that FIRST can't and shouldn't put a large variety of parts (wheels, sprockets, etc.) in the kit because a lot of it will go to waste.

What about a voucher program? Let FIRST ship the KoP with the standard stuff (IFI control system, kitbot chassis and gearboxes, motors, batteries, air compressor, pneumatics hose and fittings) but NO "extra" parts (wheels, sprockets, chain, pneumatic cylinders, sensors, etc.). Then teams are given vouchers for X number of wheels, sprockets, etc. just like we do with the 3 free pneumatic cylinders from Bimba in the past. There is no waste for FIRST and teams still sort of get to pick from a limited list of standard parts but still get to design and build to their team specs. The list of standard stuff could even be known before the kickoff (like the prebuild materials list) but the big secret would be the game and what else might be on the "extras" voucher list. Let's face it. Even a lot of the stuff FIRST included in the KoP last year were not used by many teams (Skyway wheelchair wheels, CMU Cam, gear tooth sensors, latex tubing, those seat motor shafts but no seat motor, the little Mabushi motor, ...). How much did it cost FIRST for all those CMU cams last year that only a relatively few teams were able to successfully use? Would that money have been better spent another way? Maybe, maybe not, who's to say. I think it would be interesting to see what teams would come up with if they could only use wheels, sprockets, sensors, etc from a specified list but get to pick what they think they can use the best.

[JVN]

What about a voucher program?

There are a lot of good points in that post. If they implemented some sort of voucher system, then they would need to buy parts on speculation.

(i.e. "we need to buy 1000x 10 tooth sprockets, but only 50x 25 tooth sprockets because most teams like 10 toothers.")

This would be a nightmare. FIRST would either buy enough for everyone, and then have too many (loss of money), or not buy enough and cause some teams to get "shutout" of some parts.

Imagine if FIRST bought 1000 widgets at $20 a pop, but only 100 teams bought a widget. How much money are they losing?

Are there other ways to save money?
Would a veteran team say "we don't need a compressor" and give it up. What if only rookie teams received battery chargers?

Is this unfair? Everyone pays the same registration fees, can there be a rookie/veteran kit?

I hope everyone starts to realize the complications that come with the KOP.
I learned a lot about the tremendous effort involved last summer, during the Kitbot proposal and implementation process.

JV

[Kyle Love]

Black CH FlightSticks.

I strongly second.

[Stu Bloom]

I say SLASH the KOP in half, reduce the registration fees, and increase the robot spending limit accordingly.

There are a lot of good points in that post. If they implemented some sort of voucher system, then they would need to buy parts on speculation.

(i.e. "we need to buy 1000x 10 tooth sprockets, but only 50x 25 tooth sprockets because most teams like 10 toothers.")

This would be a nightmare. FIRST would either buy enough for everyone, and then have too many (loss of money), or not buy enough and cause some teams to get "shutout" of some parts.

Imagine if FIRST bought 1000 widgets at $20 a pop, but only 100 teams bought a widget. How much money are they losing?
IF we are serious about finding ways to save money associated with the KOP, why would we want to turn FIRST into a storage/warehouse/distribution/shipping company?? When ordering our "free" pneumatics in past years the "voucher"/order went directly to Bimba - that makes sense because they are already in the business of warehousing and handling their own products. Could a voucher system be set up with a certain dollar value towards certain components where the suppliers bill FIRST as the teams order the parts directly from the suppliers? There should not be any supply problems for the type of common/stock items we are talking about (sprockets, gears, bearings, wheels, etc ...)


Are there other ways to save money?
Would a veteran team say "we don't need a compressor" and give it up. What if only rookie teams received battery chargers?

Is this unfair? Everyone pays the same registration fees, can there be a rookie/veteran kit?

I hope everyone starts to realize the complications that come with the KOP.
I learned a lot about the tremendous effort involved last summer, during the Kitbot proposal and implementation process.

JV
Better yet, let's save FIRST even more money - the cost of the book-keeping effort of a voucher program like this could still be significant ... Why not just shortcut the existing system? Eliminate all of the standard/stock type components from the kit, reduce the $6000 registration fee by the "value" of these items (down to $4000 or $5000), and let the teams order their own components as needed to complete their design?? We may not realize the volume discounts that FIRST is now getting, but we are also not buying "10 sprockets" for every one we use.

It seems so simple ... WE spend our money on what WE NEED. And since rookies are eligible for the $6000 NASA grant their first two years that would help them to stock up on some of the aforementioned "non-consumables" (battery chargers, air compressors, etc ...)

Other than the consideration of how much of the kit is donated, it seems to me that EVERYONE WINS in a scenario like that ... am I missing something??

[coastertux]

Correct me if I am wrong...but I believe the electronics we get with the kit (not including the speed controllers, spikes, etc.) cost around $3,000 retail. Plus, our registration fee covers one regional, shipping, etc. I don't think FIRST could reduce the fee much without cutting most of the parts in the kit.

[dlavery]

Not to be a buzzkill, but where was all this discussion when we needed it back in the early summer? Anyone remember this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140) and it's companions? At this point, the Kit Of Parts is locked and sealed, and there will not be any more change this year. Ideas about the KOP content, if you are serious about the suggestions, should be collected and provided as feedback after the upcoming season - after you have a chance to see what is in the 2006 KOP and have a chance to react to it appropriately. Then you can provide them via any similar threads that are started next summer or - more appropriately - at the summer team forums.

-dave

[EricH]

I vote new geraboxes. Some teams cant fford to have a gearbox made or arnt capable of making their own but the ones last year were so HEAVY with 2 cims i think they tipped (or broke) the scales at 22lbs EACH!
22lbs each. Your scale is a) broken already or b) not zeroed properly or c) not zeroed at all or d) whoever weighed the gearbox didn't know what they were doing and needs training. :rolleyes:
The mass of 1 gearbox with 2 motors is 4070 grams as measured by our students (though I suspect that they didn't zero the scale completely first, it should be close.) Translation: 4.070kg*2.5lb/kg (approximate)=10.175 lb. Your 22 lb estimate would be for a set of two gearboxes with 2 CIMs in each. Ten pounds including both motors is actually pretty good.

[Billfred]

Not to be a buzzkill, but where was all this discussion when we needed it back in the early summer? Anyone remember this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140) and it's companions? At this point, the Kit Of Parts is locked and sealed, and there will not be any more change this year. Ideas about the KOP content, if you are serious about the suggestions, should be collected and provided as feedback after the upcoming season - after you have a chance to see what is in the 2006 KOP and have a chance to react to it appropriately. Then you can provide them via any similar threads that are started next summer or - more appropriately - at the summer team forums.

-dave
I don't think anyone with an appreciation of how long it takes to pack and ship 2,000 crates all over the world would be taking this thread seriously. (I'm not an expert, but I'll bet it takes longer than 16 days.)

In any event, I'll put the warning up: don't take this thread seriously.

[Andrew Blair]

Not to be a buzzkill, but where was all this discussion when we needed it back in the early summer? Anyone remember this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140) and it's companions? At this point, the Kit Of Parts is locked and sealed, and there will not be any more change this year. Ideas about the KOP content, if you are serious about the suggestions, should be collected and provided as feedback after the upcoming season - after you have a chance to see what is in the 2006 KOP and have a chance to react to it appropriately. Then you can provide them via any similar threads that are started next summer or - more appropriately - at the summer team forums.

-dave

Yeah, a little late, but I think I covered that in the intro post. This is more of a speculation, "I really hope this is what happens" type of thing to kill time waiting for the KOP, kinda like trying to guess what you got for Christmas. Hence, "chit-chat". Its more fun to speculate when you can find out about your predictions in just a few weeks. Dave, we're all sorry you can't join the fun, since you know whats in the KOP, but you're like the kid who opens his presents before Christmas! When will you learn about instant gratification...;)

(Dave, I'm just kidding, you know we're all extremely grateful for all the work you do for FIRST, including preparing the KOP. I will be happy with whatever is in it this year, unless it's coal or negative rep. points!:yikes: )
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=12229&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=3&trows=3&quiet=Verbose
(hehe, sorry Dave)

[Stu Bloom]

Not to be a buzzkill, but where was all this discussion when we needed it back in the early summer? Anyone remember this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140) and it's companions? At this point, the Kit Of Parts is locked and sealed, and there will not be any more change this year. Ideas about the KOP content, if you are serious about the suggestions, should be collected and provided as feedback after the upcoming season - after you have a chance to see what is in the 2006 KOP and have a chance to react to it appropriately. Then you can provide them via any similar threads that are started next summer or - more appropriately - at the summer team forums.

-daveThanks Dave, I completely understand. I did not mean to suggest that any of my thoughts could be implemented for this year (I believe I saw somewhere that the kits were already packed and palletized for shipment). In fact I have no clue about the costs associated with putting the kit together (purchases, donations, packing, storage, shipping ... etc). And I won't pretend to understand any of the financial details of FIRST.

But when it was suggested that we should consider the financial impact of the additional items we were asking for in this thread it seemed to follow that the reverse was worthy of discussion. I would think that every dollar that is taken out of the kit could be transferred directly back to the teams via an equal reduction of registration fees .... NET change in overall cost to FIRST = ZERO. Savings to teams would come from the fact that we are not "paying for" 10 different size sprockets (or gears, bearings, widgets, whatever ...) while only using one or two ... or NONE. Actually FIRST could potentially realize a small savings in administrative costs from managing (procurement, storage, packing, shipping, etc...) a smaller and simpler kit.

I am frustrated that every year my team struggles financially just to be able to participate at all. I believe this program is SO good for everyone involved that it shouldn't be this difficult. Each year there are many veteran teams unable to return, and I am sure a significant number of those are due to the difficulty in sustaining the level of financial support needed to continue. I feel anything that can be done to reduce that burden should be pursued.

I know we will all be very happy with the kit contents this year, as usual. My comments are meant for future consideration in search of ways we might improve. I will definitely make sure that I bring this up at the "team forum" session I attend.

Sorry to continue this thread off-topic :o , so to get back on topic ...
What I would like to add to the KOP wish list is a pile of cash equal to the reduced cost to FIRST resulting from the elimination of any non-FIRST-required/specific parts. ;)

[Kyle Love]

I personally want some AndyMark battery plugs...:p

[Peter Matteson]

Not to be a buzzkill, but where was all this discussion when we needed it back in the early summer? Anyone remember this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140) and it's companions? At this point, the Kit Of Parts is locked and sealed, and there will not be any more change this year. Ideas about the KOP content, if you are serious about the suggestions, should be collected and provided as feedback after the upcoming season - after you have a chance to see what is in the 2006 KOP and have a chance to react to it appropriately. Then you can provide them via any similar threads that are started next summer or - more appropriately - at the summer team forums.

-dave

Does this mean it's too late to ask for a flux capacitor?

But seriously I would be content with a kit virtually identical to last years as I was very happy with it and the work that people like JVN and Paul Cioppoli did with the transmission. I felt it was the best balance of giving the rookies what they need to get started quick and the veterans got a few things they could use to prototype really quick. All in all even though there was room for improvement in some areas I thought last year was the best kit since I've been involved with FIRST in giving everyone a fighting chance to get in the game.

Also if I've learned anything in 3 years doing this an "revolutionary" changes in the kit will make there way here quick so we are prepared. That said I would like to finally make it to a mentor debrief meeting one of these years to make a few comments. The only reason I haven't is they have conflicted with business trips 3 years running.

Pete

[ChuckDickerson]

Not to be a buzzkill, but where was all this discussion when we needed it back in the early summer? Anyone remember this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140) and it's companions? At this point, the Kit Of Parts is locked and sealed, and there will not be any more change this year. Ideas about the KOP content, if you are serious about the suggestions, should be collected and provided as feedback after the upcoming season - after you have a chance to see what is in the 2006 KOP and have a chance to react to it appropriately. Then you can provide them via any similar threads that are started next summer or - more appropriately - at the summer team forums.

-dave

In light of the direction this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=47490) is taking maybe now is an appropriate time and place to revive this thread? Maybe someone can merge the two relevant posts from these two threads and start a constructive discussion of ways that FIRST can improve the KoP and reduce costs at the same time?

[Tytus Gerrish]

Roller Chain Tension Rings

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/small/5896kc1s.gif

McMaster

5896k1
5896k2
5896k3
5896k4
5896k5
5896k6
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[Wayne C.]

I would like to see the IF Robot Controller become standardized so the old robots from year to year can be used for the latest season's game without lack of compatibility with the field at the time.

When we loan robots to pre-rookies that would make the job much easier.

I would also like to see CRIMP on style ring connectors for the #6 wire for the batteries included in the kits.

And I would like the old (2005) style breaker block back in the kits.

wc

[Andrew Blair]

In light of the direction this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=47490) is taking maybe now is an appropriate time and place to revive this thread? Maybe someone can merge the two relevant posts from these two threads and start a constructive discussion of ways that FIRST can improve the KoP and reduce costs at the same time?


I second that that motion...