Dump Backup Battery

[Kingofl337]

Does anyknow if its against the rules to replace the backup battery with a 7.2v powersupply? We want to dump the backup battery and run everything off our 12v battery.

[Jack Jones]

<R62> The 7.2V Robot Control backup battery must be connected to the Controller as described in the
Controller’s manual (the 7.2v battery should be charged to at least 7.0v before entering a match). As a
replacement for the FIRST supplied battery, any other 7.2V NiCad battery pack may be used.

Last year's rule - but don't expect it to change.

[EricH]

We want to dump the backup battery and run everything off our 12v battery.
Trust me, there is a reason for the backup battery. I don't want to go into why FIRST introduced it. While the robot can run without it, no servos will work without it. Don't try running off just the 12V battery.

[coastertux]

I believe, in addition to what Eric said, the backup battery is also to make sure the controller has enough power at all times (so it doesn't reset or loose contact with the OI if the 12v battery voltage drops).

[EricH]

I believe, in addition to what Eric said, the backup battery is also to make sure the controller has enough power at all times (so it doesn't reset or loose contact with the OI if the 12v battery voltage drops).
That's part of what I don't want to go into...'Nuff said.

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

<R62> The 7.2V Robot Control backup battery must be connected to the Controller as described in the
Controller’s manual (the 7.2v battery should be charged to at least 7.0v before entering a match). As a
replacement for the FIRST supplied battery, any other 7.2V NiCad battery pack may be used.

Last year's rule - but don't expect it to change.

And, athough the rule clearly says that "any 7.2 volt NiCad battery may
be used" the technical inspectors refused our use of a larger 7.2 volt
battery in a prior year. If you come to a regional with a different battery
you should make sure that you also bring the FIRST provided one just
in case...

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

<R62> The 7.2V Robot Control backup battery must be connected to the Controller as described in the
Controller’s manual (the 7.2v battery should be charged to at least 7.0v before entering a match). As a
replacement for the FIRST supplied battery, any other 7.2V NiCad battery pack may be used.



And, athough the rule clearly says that "any 7.2 volt NiCad battery may
be used" the technical inspectors refused our use of a larger 7.2 volt
battery in a prior year. If you come to a regional with a different battery
you should make sure that you also bring the FIRST provided one just
in case...

Or as all teams should, make sure you have a copy of the rule book with you during inspection (and at at all times).

[Al Skierkiewicz]

And, athough the rule clearly says that "any 7.2 volt NiCad battery may be used" the technical inspectors refused our use of a larger 7.2 volt battery in a prior year. If you come to a regional with a different battery you should make sure that you also bring the FIRST provided one just
in case...

Gene,
I would have challenged that ruling. The training was pretty clear that any 7.2 volt battery was OK. The 7.2 volt battery insures that the RC proccessors stay active during 12 volt brownouts. The battery also feeds the radio modem and any servoes connected to the RC. IFI monitors your robot as you set up on the field and can tell the level of both batteries. If your 7.2 volt is missing or low they will alert you to replace the battery. Robots that have large current draw from the main battery will regularly pull that voltage down below the critical 7-8 volts needed to keep the RC alive so IFI came up with this change. You lose control of the robot for a brief time but you don't have to wait for reboot and initialization. Your partners thank you for having a charged and seperate 7.2 volt source for the RC.

[billbo911]

Gene,
I would have challenged that ruling. The training was pretty clear that any 7.2 volt battery was OK. The 7.2 volt battery insures that the RC proccessors stay active during 12 volt brownouts. The battery also feeds the radio modem and any servoes connected to the RC.
One other device that gets it's power from the "backup battery" that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the CMUcam2. With the extra focus being placed on this device in CD right now, it would be good to remember that as well. I don't know for certain that we will be using this camera this year, but my guess is we will.

As far as using the 12v battery to drive a 7.2v supply as a means of eliminating the backup battery, forget about it. The only way to do this and still get 7.2v out of it even when the main battery drops below 7.2v would require a circuit with weight and size that exceeds that of the backup battery it's self.

[BrianBSL]

One other device that gets it's power from the "backup battery" that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the CMUcam2. With the extra focus being placed on this device in CD right now, it would be good to remember that as well. I don't know for certain that we will be using this camera this year, but my guess is we will.

As far as using the 12v battery to drive a 7.2v supply as a means of eliminating the backup battery, forget about it. The only way to do this and still get 7.2v out of it even when the main battery drops below 7.2v would require a circuit with weight and size that exceeds that of the backup battery it's self.

Huh? What is preventing you from doing it with an IC based buck/boost converter? Small surface mount IC plus an inductor and a few resistors is all I could see that would be necessary. I'm certinally no expert on power electronics, but I don't see what you would need that would be "a circuit with the weight and size that exceeds that of the backup battery".

Not that I would say its worth doing it, stick with the backup battery. If you are really worried about size/weight, there are plenty of suppliers of smaller premade 7.2V battery packs.

[Peter Matteson]

Pardon me for asking but what do you think the advantage of using a 7.2v power supply would have been?

Based on the 5vdc Siemens inverters I use it seems like you just adding weight and volume to your bot. Am I missing something?

Pete

[Timmyd]

we actually had our main battery terminal ripped off and we took off the back up battery and ran the 12v battery off the back up battery terminal it worked fine for us until we swapped out the ifi.

[Jack Jones]

Many are missing the point that the keyword here is backup. Any electronics added to replace the NiCad and yet store enough juice to power the RC (ETC.) during brownouts is sure to be less efficient than the NiCad.

That is, you can't get something for nothing! Instead of having a pre-charged NiCad, you use power from the main battery, which is a net loss of power available at the start of the match. You'd also gain weight!

[billbo911]

Huh? What is preventing you from doing it with an IC based buck/boost converter? Small surface mount IC plus an inductor and a few resistors is all I could see that would be necessary.
The only way to do this and still get 7.2v out of it even when the main battery drops below 7.2v would require a circuit with weight and size that exceeds that of the backup battery it's self.Again, the only advantage I could imagine would be gained by elliminating it would be a reduction of size and/or weight. I don't think it is possible to achieve both requirements based on what you are describing. (I don't mind being prooved wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.) The trick would be to have it supply enought power to keep alive all the devices that may be drawing from it when the input voltage drops to say 5vdc.

Not that I would say its worth doing it, stick with the backup battery. If you are really worried about size/weight, there are plenty of suppliers of smaller premade 7.2V battery packs.
Now your talking. Just make certain it has the capacity to power all the devices that run off the battery.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

We can't really answer this for a particulr robot but let us remember that there are robots (many robots) that have inefficient designs that do run the main battery down to nothing in a single match. I have had teams that were actually proud of the fact that they killed a battery every match. With that being said, a power convertor fed from the main battery is still going to fail when a current demand on the main battery causes it to go to a couple of volts during a shoving match. Even with boost buck convertors, a 10 volt swing on input will not reliably keep the backup power up at 7.2 volts. In this case, two voltage sources are the best solution.

[TimCraig]

Or as all teams should, make sure you have a copy of the rule book with you during inspection (and at at all times).

I seem to remember that during one inspection, we were told by an inspector when we questioned a rule, that his rule book was much more detailed than the rules we'd been given. Like that makes a lot of sense. Build the robot to these rules and then we'll apply another set of rules at inspection. :confused:

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I seem to remember that during one inspection, we were told by an inspector when we questioned a rule, that his rule book was much more detailed than the rules we'd been given. Like that makes a lot of sense. Build the robot to these rules and then we'll apply another set of rules at inspection. :confused:
That is definetely not the case. What is implied is that the inspector likely had a complete listing of the Q&A nd Team Updates and you did not. Although the rule book is sufficient for most things, there are rules that are interpreted differently during the season as the committee responds to the Q&A. The weekly team updates reflect any changes, modifications, or additions. If you do not visit the First site at least once each week, you will not be up to date and need to expect surprises when inspected or during competition.

[ChrisH]

That is definetely not the case. What is implied is that the inspector likely had a complete listing of the Q&A nd Team Updates and you did not. Although the rule book is sufficient for most things, there are rules that are interpreted differently during the season as the committee responds to the Q&A. The weekly team updates reflect any changes, modifications, or additions. If you do not visit the First site at least once each week, you will not be up to date and need to expect surprises when inspected or during competition.

Here in California somebody was nice enough to print out and bind the complete rules including updates. It was two volumes that together were about 8" thick. It is virtually impossible to keep all of that information straight, both for the contestants and the inspectors. Next time politely ask to see where the rule is in HIS book. If done with a humble "I just want to see the exact wording of the rule so I can be sure to comply" attitude this should be granted. It is a reasonable request. Now if he can't find it ... then you might have a problem.