FREE CoreChartFR

[Wayne Doenges]

I've been asked to pass this on to the FIRST community. If it doesn't belong here, please move it to the appropriate forum. Thanks.

eLabtronics is sponsoring CoreChartFR for FREE to all students, mentors,
schools, sponsors, etc. involved in FIRST Robotics 2006. There is no time
limits or limits on the number of computers that can be installed.

We will do this by alerting everyone to a sponsorship number so that
everyone can download CoreChartFR and enter the special sponsorship number
to get unlimited access. Can you help get this message to the teams?

Regards,
Miroslav Kostecki
Technical Manager
eLabtronics
51 Byron Place, Adelaide
South Australia, 5000
PH: +61 8 8231 5966
FAX: +61 8 8231 5266

[ChuckDickerson]

Any more information on when/where/how we obtain the special "sponsorship number"? I assume we download the software here (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm).

[Vaillancourt88]

Any more information on when/where/how we obtain the special "sponsorship number"? I assume we download the software here (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm).


We are very much interested in the CoreChart software. (Especially the FREE part!!) How do we get this sponsorship #?

[Andrew Blair]

Huh, very nice of them. I don't know if this confirms or denies my prediction that CoreChart would be associated with the KOP...

[Eldarion]

My initial "gut feeling" is that this cheapens the programming end some. What do other people think?

[BrianBSL]

My initial "gut feeling" is that this cheapens the programming end some. What do other people think?

I think that its far more complicated to write assembly than C, so if anything it requires more skill.

[Eldarion]

I think that its far more complicated to write assembly than C, so if anything it requires more skill.

But this software is kind of like Mindstorms for the FRC, so how does that require more skill? :confused:

[Ian Curtis]

My initial "gut feeling" is that this cheapens the programming end some. What do other people think?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40456&highlight=corechart

(Oh and by the way, it is painful to code with Mindstorms. At the very least use RoboLab 2.0 (graphical) or even better, ScriptEd (text-based)!

[Eldarion]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40456&highlight=corechart

Sorry, I didn't see that thread.

(Oh and by the way, it is painful to code with Mindstorms. At the very least use RoboLab 2.0 (graphical) or even better, ScriptEd (text-based)!


I know, that is one reason I don't like it! I've been programming in C++ for a very long time, so I might be biased though... :rolleyes:

[BrianBSL]

But this software is kind of like Mindstorms for the FRC, so how does that require more skill? :confused:

Because core chart is a graphical assembler, not a graphical high-level language program. There are no floats - there arn't even any 16-bit variables. Everything is 8 bits, period. You are 100% limited to the PIC 18 instruction set. Want to store a literal (like 0x77) in a variable? You can't just move it right into it, you have to move it into the working register and then into the variable. There are not blocks for everything you want to do like there is in mindstorms, you have to create everything out of assembly instructions.

Take a look at the .lst that c18 makes for you. Every assembly instruction there would be a block in corechart.

I'm not saying I would use it - I'd program in C, and if I had to use assembly I'd do it by hand. I am, however, saying that it requires more skill than writing C code in MPLAB. All it does for you is makes it so you cant screw up the syntax.

[Eldarion]

Because core chart is a graphical assembler, not a graphical high-level language program.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that it was a graphical high-level language similar to MindStorms.

One has to wonder what the benefit of this software actually is. It seems like an odd mix of high and low level stuff, and C already performs syntax checking.

[Miroslav]

Note that CoreChartFR now runs on the 2005 controller and runs on the 2006 controller too ( this has been tested ). Updates will be available on our web site.

eLabtronics will not put the sponsored key number to unlock the 30 day trial limit on CoreChartFR on the Internet since it is for FIRST Robotics students, mentors, teachers and sponsors only. We have put together a PDF document including the number and how to unlock CoreChartFR. This document can be passed on to other FIRST members but is not to be put onto the Internet for general access.

If anyone who is mentioned as qualifying ( above ) for sponsorship wants a copy of the document please email me at miro@elabtronics.com and I will email it back to you. Anyone is welcome to help pass on this document to other FIRST members.

[Alan Anderson]

One has to wonder what the benefit of this software actually is. It seems like an odd mix of high and low level stuff, and C already performs syntax checking.
It goes further than syntax checking, making it basically impossible to create syntax errors in the first place. The brief demo I saw convinced me that it's a very friendly programming environment. I'm not sure how much power, if any, is sacrificed for that friendliness. I believe that I'd end up feeling frustrated with how much time it would take to create a program, though it's possible that I'd find the test/debug process to be faster.

The main potential benefit I can see is that some people are good with "programming" but not with "coding". Giving them the ability to express code as a graphical flowchart overcomes the conceptual hurdle of writing programs as textual instructions.

[Danny Diaz]

The main potential benefit I can see is that some people are good with "programming" but not with "coding". Giving them the ability to express code as a graphical flowchart overcomes the conceptual hurdle of writing programs as textual instructions. That's the benefit of pretty much all graphical programming languages, LabVIEW being one of them (and to a lesser extent MatLab and related languages that hide the inner details of how the data is stored). In my experience I have found that people who are comfortable with text based languages will not like programming in a graphical language at first, mainly because graphical programming languages require a different mindset and algorithm base. Even though I am very fluent in LabVIEW now I still prefer to do some things in a textual language because I haven't convinced myself yet that doing it in LabVIEW (or any graphical language) could be as efficient, even though I've had people tell me it is (but they were LabVIEW developers, who can trust them? ;) ).

-Danny

[aaeamdar]

"But this software is kind of like Mindstorms for the FRC, so how does that require more skill?"

If it's anything like Mindstorms (which I've used) our team won't be using it. I've programmed in Java and C and C++ and you can't go back to legos after that.

But could someone please clarify what it is or give a description of what it does? Or link me to their site.

Thanks

[Stu Bloom]

Understanding that I am a mechanical guy ... please bear with me ...

HERE (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm) is the website to download the program. As I understand it, this is a graphical programming interface that SKIPS the conventional coding and compiler steps and takes you from the graphical interface directly to assembler. I believe when the RC gets it, it is a smaller and more efficient file, and this method eliminates the potential for typos, and syntax and compiling errors.

Paul, if you re-read this thread I think your questions have all been previously answered.

I am sure some of the programmers out there can correct me and elaborate if necessary.

[Astronouth7303]

"But this software is kind of like Mindstorms for the FRC, so how does that require more skill?"

It's a beautification of assembly. That's all.

[Miroslav]

HERE (http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm) is the website to download the program. As I understand it, this is a graphical programming interface that SKIPS the conventional coding and compiler steps and takes you from the graphical interface directly to assembler. I believe when the RC gets it, it is a smaller and more efficient file, and this method eliminates the potential for typos, and syntax and compiling errors.



Thats a good description but CoreChartFR does more than that. Subroutines ( including functions from the default C code ) are selectable from a list. Also variables ( default C code and user generated ) are selectable from a list. This means that the programmer does not need to rely on his/her memory ( or constant reference to a printed list ) to program but can concentrate on the process instead.

[Astronouth7303]

Thats a good description but CoreChartFR does more than that. Subroutines ( including functions from the default C code ) are selectable from a list. Also variables ( default C code and user generated ) are selectable from a list. This means that the programmer does not need to rely on his/her memory ( or constant reference to a printed list ) to program but can concentrate on the process instead.

You should be doing this anyway.

As far as I can determine, there's nothing C about it. The default variables are hardware registers. All variables fall under one of 2 types: bit and byte. Constants are darn near impossible to make.

Welcome to the wonderful world of kludging. My name is Jamie and I'll be your tour guide.

[Dave Flowerday]

You should be doing this anyway.

As far as I can determine, there's nothing C about it. The default variables are hardware registers. All variables fall under one of 2 types: bit and byte. Constants are darn near impossible to make.

Welcome to the wonderful world of kludging. My name is Jamie and I'll be your tour guide.
There seems to be a lot of people on this thread and the other one ripping on this CoreChart. Some of the comments strike me as rather rude. An organization has created a tool that they think will be useful to FIRST and offered it for free. That's a very nice gesture, whether you like the software or not. If you don't like it, feel free to not use it. What if, as we speak, a company who writes a piece of software that you really would like to have is reading this thread, thinking about offering something for free to FIRST teams? What if they read all the negative comments here and figure "Why would I want to give something away to that ungrateful bunch?"

[1075master]

i agree with dave thats definelty not gracious professionalism!!
anyway i just wanted to ask does this mean we have to completely rewrite all the code or do we simply open the current code file in this program and start programming??

[SoftwareBug2.0]

There seems to be a lot of people on this thread and the other one ripping on this CoreChart. Some of the comments strike me as rather rude. An organization has created a tool that they think will be useful to FIRST and offered it for free. That's a very nice gesture, whether you like the software or not. If you don't like it, feel free to not use it. What if, as we speak, a company who writes a piece of software that you really would like to have is reading this thread, thinking about offering something for free to FIRST teams? What if they read all the negative comments here and figure "Why would I want to give something away to that ungrateful bunch?"
This forum is not about pleasing sponsors but about people communicating what they think.

[Eldarion]

This forum is not about pleasing sponsors but about people communicating what they think.

I am with Dave on this one. What I have said earlier should be considered rants against a general direction in the software industry, not specifically against CoreChart itself!

[varcsscotty]

This program was written from the looks of it for making the programming part faster I think. But learning it will take more time than just programming the robot the old fashioned way.
I doubt I will use it much, if at all, but thanks for the free offer anyways! This will probably help out many teams but luckily 1571 has many very talented programmers who would probably kill me if I suggested using this program. So we're sticking with the traditional IDEs and C language.

[Miroslav]

i agree with dave thats definelty not gracious professionalism!!
anyway i just wanted to ask does this mean we have to completely rewrite all the code or do we simply open the current code file in this program and start programming??

CoreChartFR contains all the default code provided by IFI for the controller. The programmer simply opens the current code and starts programming. The default structure and subroutines are included and can be used by the programmer.

One good example is the "EventTimer" example program which includes the default subroutine in the main program and has a timer in the autonomous subroutine that allows the user to execute instructions at a certain time and then jump back out of autonomous mode after a user specified time.

[Gdeaver]

Software is a tool. Select the tool you feel most comfortable with and use it. I have 6 different hammers on my truck. When I need to whack something I pick the best hammer for the task. I could get by with 1 Hammer but that would be difficult. The situation is analogous to First. In the past we only had the MPLAB hammer. This year we may Have 3 different software hammers. The big point is we have a choice. Also note that LEGO is using the company that makes LabView to produce a graphical robot programming system. Maybe next year First will have more software hammers. I also believe that some of the negativism on this forum can be attributed to some programmers feeling threatened by some new software that may allow common mortals to program the robot reducing their stature as a god on the team. The other point I would like to make is "time to market". The build season is short. If a new graphical programming system will get the robot up and running faster this can make a big difference in time to market. Humans are tool users. Keep your tool locker full.

[Cody Carey]

I, for one think that this will be a very useful tool. We have no programmers on our team, only people who are learning enough to get through the year, so this will help a whole lot! I was about to learn how to program in C from a set of video tutorials I "got", but now I can just assemble it pretty much in the same way I did for years on the Lego team, not to mention saving many many hours of training. That is awesome!


Thank you SO much for the free offer, a lot of us really appreciate it ! :)

[1075master]

as a person who doesn't know alot about programming i figured this would be a great help. i was simply goofing a round and trying to see if i could make a joystick control. the easiest way i found was to do exactly what they did and make a text box and write the actual code. a drive we are experimenting with this year uses a potentiometer to measure direction. the way it is programmed is that it will take the joystick value and the potentiometer value and as they get closer and closer to the same the motor moves slower and slower. i tried to figure this out with corechart but i could not.
i have used the lego mindstorms before and loved it. if there was a program more like that it would be alot better.
i think this program will be good for people who don't know anything about programming or are fimiliar with this type of program but for people who know programming it seems to limit what you can do.

[Miroslav]

as a person who doesn't know alot about programming i figured this would be a great help. i was simply goofing a round and trying to see if i could make a joystick control. the easiest way i found was to do exactly what they did and make a text box and write the actual code. a drive we are experimenting with this year uses a potentiometer to measure direction. the way it is programmed is that it will take the joystick value and the potentiometer value and as they get closer and closer to the same the motor moves slower and slower. i tried to figure this out with corechart but i could not...


The "LimitMix" example:
pwm01 = pwm03 = Limit_Mix(2000 + PWM_in1 + PWM_in3 - 127) LEFT WHEELS
pwm02 = pwm04 = Limit_Mix(2000 + PWM_in3 - PWM_in1 + 127) RIGHT WHEELS
is included in the examples folder as a similar example and is entirely programmed in CoreChart ( no text boxes or C ) to show how this can be done.
Note too that the "default routine" supplied by IFI is also included and can be included to removed from the "Main" routine.
We will update CoreChartFR with more examples so check for new versions on the site: http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChartFR.htm