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Nuttyman54
26-12-2005, 00:54
just a side note, but can we NOT turn this into (yet another) water game discussion? (yes i realize i've contributed to it). the ONLY hint we have of a water game is the picture by Dave, and for all we know, he's just screwing around with some textures

Arkorobotics
26-12-2005, 01:12
There is a motto that we should keep in mind:

KISS

Keep It Simple Stupid.

We are all going into this complicated ball of thoughts..

Dan Richardson
26-12-2005, 01:57
not entirely true.. we figured out that the name would be tripple play last year... that sorta counts :-p


the year before we also figured we'd have to reach up and climb, and that nothing could be fired faster than 9.8 ft/s or whatever. So every year there is typically a pretty close consensus to what some of the game elements will be. UNFORTUNATELY its never enough to actually design a bot to hehe.

Cyberguy34000
26-12-2005, 02:28
five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights


Hey guys just a few notes that I think could head this thing off in a slightly different direction.

Accoding to the first entry in this thesarus (http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=obsessed), obsessed is a synonym for controlled. So a game piece controlled by a shovel's show? Perhaps the shovel part alludes to how the game piece might be manipulated, and therafore what shape it might be.

On a similar note, the pasta part has been picked apart quite a bit with conclusions ranging from game piece shapes to hydrality (it's a word now), but here's something new. Perhaps it refers to plurality. You never see talk about pasta as a single object, but as many pieces, and generally small. I'll go out on a limb and say many smaller game pieces that need to be collected (going on the shovels show/minining theory) and and put into goals. If the objects were really small (inches) that would lead to some interesting scoring possibilities, as scores would probibly have to be determined by volume, not number of object, also we'd see some very different collection systems.

Also the tangling is a synonym for mixing. Perhaps game pieces can be mixed in goals?


Oh, 5 DOES NOT REFER TO BOTS! Regardless of it's place in the sentance structure. There are many countless reasons previously covered about this. It's far more likely to refer to something more likely like number of goals, game pieces (that would be different, each alliance starts with only 5 pieces to score with), or even something more abstract, 5 minute matches anyone?

And here's hoping this inspires people to look at things a little different, where does the Human Player fit into all this? Are they shoveling? Providing communication to the driver for a part of field blocked by the hieghts? What then?

Anyways here's to hoping people are inspired :)




So in short:

1: Game piece controled by shovels show.
2: Pasta = plurality/small
3: Five /= bots
4: Where does the Human Player fit in?

Elgin Clock
26-12-2005, 09:56
Random responses to other posts:

Montana's "Big Sky" country. So "Sky High" is right on for a game name. :cool:

Anyone see that movie of the same name; "Sky High" for some more abstract references to the rest of the clue by any chance?

Sanddrag, Dave never "said" baton, just a picture. He said "majorette". What sporting events are big enough to have marching bands and majorettes? Football. :rolleyes:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303933/ :p I'm not giving up on my idea from 2004's clue (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22406&highlight=drumline) carrying over to this year.

GPS would not be to feasable at all because most recievers barely work indoors.

The only reason they barely work inside is because the transmitter of the signal is outside, and the receivers usually need a clear line of sight with at least one transmitter (satellite).

i dont think they will get rid of alliances just becuase of how greatly gracious professionalism is pushed.

GP also could mean (a'la 2001 competition, and the basis of the Co-Opertition patent) working together as only one team.

Shall we try that again?

So withing all my clue meaning searching and maybe some hints on CD...

I came across the following

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=383483

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140

It has alot of game ideas so maybe ... just maybe it'll tell us something

Who knows..

I would tend to look at Tckma's idea.

Koko Ed
26-12-2005, 10:23
Random responses to other posts:



Anyone see that movie of the same name; "Sky High" for some more abstract references to the rest of the clue by any chance?



http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303933/ :p I'm not giving up on my idea from 2004's clue (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22406&highlight=drumline) carrying over to this year.



The only reason they barely work inside is because the transmitter of the signal is outside, and the receivers usually need a clear line of sight with at least one transmitter (satellite).
So we'll be playing Save the Citizen?

Nimmy
26-12-2005, 10:39
ok so this what our team has been going along so far
we have gone with the joe montana theme (1989, devided 34 by 2=17 before and after auto)

this is what ive been thinking regarding the pasta the green heights and the 5 bots,

first off the pasta has been run through the place over and over
and this is just another wacky suggestion, lets take the shoveling and the pasta toghether, shoveling pasta, but to gain points
thing of the playing field half full or more with a layer of pipes which are hard to drive on (slippery) or to big, so you need to SHOVEL them out of your way
much like a snow plow, the way of gaining points we think will be a football field, and probably your end-game position. I just saw someone saying
maybe it will be none-american football (soccer) and that also looks possible
since throwing objects in the arena seems kinda dangerous.

5 and bots true arent always related
but we have to remember that BOT in web-slang isnt necceserily a ROBOT
it is also another name for SCRIPT (as in mIRC bot\script)
maybe when your robot stands somewhere on the field, it opens the goal
so your teammate can score (soccer...)
5 goals? possible
anyone know the show ROBOTICA? how about 3vs3 alliances, and 5 annoying
robots,
maybe 2vs2 and 1 disrupting robot, that just bugs you.

im gonna go with the bot's being trigers, like weight triggers
once your robot stands on a certain platform it opens up the goal so your buddy can score extra points

another thing could be that it is 3vs3
but it is with goalkeepers
so you have 2 attacking 3 (2 defenders and a goalkeeper)
and your alliance keeper stays behind

5 bot's tangling with pasta (ramp field, gonna be hard to get the ball up there) a game piece obseesed with heights (the bugger is gonna be up there?)

I don't know to mcuh thinking about this

well that's my 2cents and 50$
good luck everyone and remember to have fun

peace.

-1577, steampunk, Israel

Elgin Clock
26-12-2005, 10:42
AHHHHH!!! Dave you are one tricky guy.

That bot he uses in the 2007 water game teaser is a plow bot... or a "shovel's show" bot.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41024

Arghhh....

Why do I get the feeling that every little part of what Dave says or does is oh so relevant.

What does it mean?? What does it mean!!!!!!

Joohoo
26-12-2005, 10:54
if i had to make a guess about the shovel part of the clue i would go back to some of the previous theory's. Every1 was talkin abou the new traction wheels from IFI so it could have something 2 do with a slick surface (when it snow it gets slipery and shovels remove snow) on the field. Deffinently not ice or snow, but some kind of plastic like on the ramp in 03.

but im prolly way off

Maybe there won't be any carpet??

Ian Curtis
26-12-2005, 11:22
Well, Mr. Shovel-Bot is always picked on. It always gets bonked, or broken, or is not well equipped for the task at hand. Obsessed is a synonym for controlled.

Sooo, that would make the hint: A game piece controlled by a not well prepared robot.


Does that mean that when five of the robots are "tangling with pasta" the robot left behind can do something extra-special? By Jove, I think we're onto something!

Alex Burman
26-12-2005, 11:52
i think that maybe Dave released that "2007" hint intentionally to point us in the right direction with the bot, that it may not have anything to do with the 2007 game but everything with the 2006 game. That banana. slippery surface maybe?

otherwise excelent idea about the little blue bot with the low center of gravity

Koko Ed
26-12-2005, 11:57
i think that maybe Dave released that "2007" hint intentionally to point us in the right direction with the bot, that it may not have anything to do with the 2007 game but everything with the 2006 game. That banana. slippery surface maybe?

otherwise excelent idea about the little blue bot with the low center of gravity
Considering the physical nature of FIRST in recent years every bot should have a low center of gravity regaurdless of the game.

Alex Burman
26-12-2005, 12:13
but many many don't especially the animation robots, which that one has the lowest

Mr.G
26-12-2005, 12:33
No one has said anything about the prime symbol ( ' )being in the first line of the clue.
"five 'bots tangling with pasta"

Five is a prime number. Meaning it's two natural divisors are 1 and 5.
Five Prime could mean 6 or 5 + 1.

Jon Jack
26-12-2005, 12:33
Considering the physical nature of FIRST in recent years every bot should have a low center of gravity regaurdless of the game.

No kidding... A lot of tipping kind of makes you look bad, but does add excitment to a match.

Speaking of tipping, something cool I saw last year at Las Vegas was, I think on 399's robot which was able to raise itself if it fell forward. During one of their matches it fell forward and then a few seconds later started to raise back up. The picked themselves up and continued to play the match.

No one has said anything about the prime symbol ( ' )being in the first line
"five 'bots tangling with pasta"

Five is a prime number.
Meaning it's two natural divisors are 1 and 5.
Five Prime could mean 6 or 5 + 1.

Good point...

Wayne C.
26-12-2005, 13:47
a shovel's show- either a hole or a pile that is made in making it

5 bots tangling with pasta- I like the idea of the foam "noodles" you use in the pool

Montanas green heights- 3 high (from earlier post)-

My guess-

robots need to place the foam noodles in a goal with small holes (about the size of mail boxes) and then somehow stack the goals 3 high?

I'm not sure this is worth spending so much time on since Dave's clues are so obtuse they are pretty much incomprehensible. But I guess inflatable clowns are out this year ; (

WC :cool:

Elgin Clock
26-12-2005, 14:17
I'll have a more definitive guess later on, but to all you who get the reference, a Dumpling is a type of pasta. :yikes:

Think about that, and then replace pasta with that in the first line. ;)

If you don't get the reference, search here on CD for the word dumpling, and see what you find. :)

Ian Curtis
26-12-2005, 14:34
I'll have a more definitive guess later on, but to all you who get the reference, a Dumpling is a type of pasta. :yikes:

Think about that, and then replace pasta with that in the first line. ;)

If you don't get the reference, search here on CD for the word dumpling, and see what you find. :)

Terribly sorry for getting off-topic but I can't resist. Notice how Montana is on the United States NORTHERN border? :eek:

Actually on topic. Dumplings are round, balls are round. Five and playground balls have a history together as five point balls... FIRST 2006: The Return of the Sphere?

Bill Moore
26-12-2005, 14:35
P.S. - What does FIRST do with old game pieces?
It depends on the game.

In 2001, FIRST gave away all the balls used during the competition, including the large "capper" balls.

My son, Josh, got the large green one off the Einstein field after the Championship, and had Dean sign it afterwards.

Why did he pick the green one? :D

Steve Howland
26-12-2005, 14:37
Family discussions over the clue brought the following realization:

Sam Spade was a detective on a radio show in the mid-40's. The show revolved around Sam Spade who solved various crimes and so forth. Spade is clearly another word for shovel, so this could be a big piece of the puzzle (or a very misleading coincidence!)

Almost all of the shows had the word "caper" in the title, which may be an important aspect, or maybe because it was a radio show there is something about radios or their frequencies involved. Maybe others who actually heard the show would know about any common themes and could enlighten us.

Bill Moore
26-12-2005, 14:45
Last years discussion did get very close to money... As a result I think over the off-season (when they weren't designing the game) the GDC worked on their hint-making skills. Or this years hint has absolutly nothing to do with the game. Or... Dave and Lil'Lavery have switched things up a bit by telling/showing us things that are true, knowing that we wouldn't believe them due to years of mis-guidence and mis-direction... hmm... curling robots anyone? :ahh:
Actually, this discussion is a very carefully planned strategy of FIRST to get everyone thinking creatively. This gets the "brainstorming" process started before you get the game. This strategy is typical of many groups trying to get into the process; "Begin brainstorming on something non-critical to break down mental barriers, and open up the ideas and creativity. Once that is accomplished, move onto the topic that truly needs to be analyzed."
Whether you realize it or not, you have already begun "playing the game".

Adam Richards
26-12-2005, 15:05
I'll have a more definitive guess later on, but to all you who get the reference, a Dumpling is a type of pasta. :yikes:

Think about that, and then replace pasta with that in the first line. ;)

If you don't get the reference, search here on CD for the word dumpling, and see what you find. :)So the game piece for 2006 is going to be an inflatable Dean Kamen?

DCA Fan
26-12-2005, 15:09
Random thoughts from looking through this thread:

- Green "buttes" plateaus that game pieces will have to be put on...5 of them perhaps?
- While it would be interesting to do a 5 robot match, we aren't due for a brand new IFI field control until next year (if I remember correctly, this might not even make a difference)
- Way out there thought: Shovel implies digging. Perhaps a large base filled with game pieces and you have to dig out your side's to earn points?
- While foam noodles sound good, I don't think they'll be game pieces because they break so easily, especially with all the bashing on the field. I kind of liked EddieD's idea of footballs.

Nuttyman54
26-12-2005, 16:07
<off topic>hmmm, kind of odd....the most activity was DURING Christmas...and now that it's over, the rate of posting has slowed down significantly. unfortunately, there's no way to tell if that's b/c we've analyzed it to death, or something else.</off topic>

EddieMcD
26-12-2005, 16:40
No one has said anything about the prime symbol ( ' )being in the first line of the clue.
"five 'bots tangling with pasta"

Five is a prime number. Meaning it's two natural divisors are 1 and 5.
Five Prime could mean 6 or 5 + 1.

Wow... good call. Especially since you'd figure if it wasn't part of a clue, they'd have just said the actual word "robot". Props to you on that one.

Okay, so I still have footballs as game pieces (as does half the thread). I wouldn't be suprised if passing (the shovel reference) is a feature as well. I also have my circular hill and possible field goal. And then we have the newly discovered "five' bots", meaning it'll most likely be 3 vs. 3 again. All that's left to do is figure out the pasta clue.

EricH
26-12-2005, 16:40
Time for some assimilation, broken into categories as follows:

Robots/alliances: Highly divided. Many figure 1v1v1v1v1 (going off the "five 'bots), but that is highly unlikely. 3v2 is also unlikely. 5v0? Possible, but unlikely, so the discussion has switched more to 6 robots on two alliances, but "how does 5=6?" is the hot item. There is some talk of a placebo bot, but who knows (other than the GDC, that is.)

Playing field: The general consensus is that there will be a ramp/elevated surface in the field, probably in the middle. It will have some form of green on it, and will be where material other than carpet is placed (if there is any).

Scoring objects: General consensus: pool noodles, footballs, or batons of some form. However, as people have pointed out, pool noodles won't wear very well. I personally suspect that the only pool noodles on the field will be used as bumpers on robots. Footballs are (possibly) supported by at least two portions of the hint. Batons are (possibly)supported mainly by one portion and one of Dave's hints.

Miscellaneous: CMUcam will be back, much to the delight of a few and annoyance of many. There has been talk of moveable goals, holes (likely location: ramp--maybe '03 style with the copper grate?) and bars for hanging.

Some of us have made predictions further up, I'm just putting the general consensus together. Maybe between Art, skimoose, and some of the other intelligent folks on CD (most of us), we can force a redesign of the game....

Pat McCarthy
26-12-2005, 16:50
A thought just popped into my brain, but I do not have the knowledge in this area to get any farther.

I noticed the odd structure of the hint. Then I though of poetry. Then I thought that maybe the type of poetic structure could be part of the clue.
Does anybody know if this has any merit?
What got me thinking about this was the word " 'bot ", which may have been shortened to fit the poetic structure.
For example, Haiku format or Iambic Pentameter...?

Joe J.
26-12-2005, 17:02
This was posted back on page 7 of this thread:

It's interesting that the clue is in the form of an extended haiku (8-10-8).
Now, haiku are normally 5-7-5 patterns, so maybe this year's competition has an alternating number of robots on the field - maybe one robot out of six is chosen to sit out a round, and get put in the next round.

John Gutmann
26-12-2005, 17:14
Just a guess even though I am jumping into the thread a little late. Green Foam noodles that you have to shovel up and load onto somehting and the human player can throw them too or laod the robot with them. Kinda like a big game of ring toss without the throwing. and there may be different levels of the goals you hneed to get like having the about the field like 2005 or having a medal stand sort of thing in the middle.

Or instead of foam pool noodles they can be like the tubular pasta that you have to load into somekinda thing that goes into the middle of it.

Elgin Clock
26-12-2005, 17:34
So the game piece for 2006 is going to be an inflatable Dean Kamen?

Not quite.. lol Although, I'm sure an inflatable Dean Kamen action figure would be quite the sight around the home. lol

I meant replace the word pasta with the word dumpling, or more ideally, "Lord Dumpling" for that matter, and it's simple (sort of) to see what the "five" means.

But, like I said before, my more in depth answer is coming soon.

Stay tuned.

side note: I nominate this thread for the one with the most quotes of other users.

dlavery
26-12-2005, 17:46
Sam Spade was a detective on a radio show in the mid-40's. The show revolved around Sam Spade who solved various crimes and so forth. Spade is clearly another word for shovel, so this could be a big piece of the puzzle (or a very misleading coincidence!)

Almost all of the shows had the word "caper" in the title, which may be an important aspect, or maybe because it was a radio show there is something about radios or their frequencies involved. Maybe others who actually heard the show would know about any common themes and could enlighten us.
Sorry, I wasn't around then, so I can't help. Ask Baker. :)

-dave

p.s. This is not a hint. But people won't believe it is not a hint, even when they are told that it is not. So go ahead and analyze the heck out of it. Let me know if you figure anything out...

The Breeze
26-12-2005, 18:02
Montana's green heights could refer to the Sanfransisco 49er's (Joe Montana's team) five super bowl wins ("green" is five in the color code). Maybe we have to fill up five bowl-shaped goals with something? Noodles? Sand? Something else to be shoveled?

ctshirk7
26-12-2005, 18:02
k so i dont know about all of it but im thinking that the shovels of show, well a spade is a fancy shovel, and so im thinking that it might have something to do with spades of some sort...cards, or shovelish...anyway the cameras coming back thats for shure

Good Luck
see ya in mineapolis
-curtis

Rafi Ahmed
26-12-2005, 19:36
Has anyone thought of screwing around with the word order?

like:

five 'bots obsessed with a shovel's show
a game piece green heights
and seeing Montana's tangling with pasta

that would be an example.

Not only that check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Montana_state_flag.png

SHOVELS, WATER, MOUNTAINS on the flag.. hmmmm

Hmmm. so the flag of the state thats in the hint has a shovel and mountains... hm i think that has something to do with this. And where is the human player in all of this??? is there not going to be one next year?? And i find it weird that FIRST didnt write out the whole robots instead they put 'bots so idk it just weird.

dez250
26-12-2005, 19:51
bot Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (bhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/obreve.gift)
n. A software program that imitates the behavior of a human, as by querying search engines or participating in chatroom or IRC discussions.

Andrew Blair
26-12-2005, 21:23
Hey, I think ArkoRobotics is onto something:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Montana_state_flag.png

So, look at the shovel: What's it pointing at(shovel's show)? ORO - What type of past sounds like ORO? ORZO! And by the way, orzo is a long, rice shaped object. Almost like a football. It also means barley in Italian, which is even more football shaped!
http://www.alacuisine.org/photos/uncategorized/orzo.jpg

Coincidence? I think not! So, it seems there is reasonable evidence that we are using footballs this year. This definently supports the baton hint interpretation. But, decide for yourself. Wouldn't be the first time we were all wrong.:rolleyes: The ORO is also kinda on a butte type thingy, once again supporting the butte type field obstacle. Eh, sounds pretty sound.

Dave, kudos to you and the GDC! It would probably take me the entire off-season to create the game hint, let alone the entire game! Like Elgin said, it seems like much of the things you post are thought out and significant. Well, alot of them are thought out...;)

Jon Jack
26-12-2005, 21:59
Hey, I think ArkoRobotics is onto something:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Montana_state_flag.png

So, look at the shovel: What's it pointing at? ORO - What type of past sounds like ORO? ORZO! And by the way, orzo is a long, rice shaped object. Almost like a football. It also means barley in Italian, which is even more football shaped!
http://www.alacuisine.org/photos/uncategorized/orzo.jpg

Coincidence? I think not! So, it seems there is reasonable evidence that we are using footballs this year. But, decide for yourself. Wouldn't be the first time we were all wrong.:rolleyes: The ORO is also kinda on a butte type thingy, once again supporting the butte type field obstacle. Eh, sounds pretty sound.

Dave, kudos to you and the GDC! It would probably take me the entire off-season to create the game hint, let alone the entire game! Like Elgin said, it seems like much of the things you post are thought out and significant. Well, alot of them are thought out...;)

One word: Brilliant!

less than two weeks left until we find out for sure.

artdutra04
26-12-2005, 22:28
And i find it weird that FIRST didnt write out the whole robots instead they put 'bots so idk it just weird.It's interesting that the clue is in the form of an extended haiku (8-10-8).
Now, haiku are normally 5-7-5 patterns, so maybe this year's competition has an alternating number of robots on the field - maybe one robot out of six is chosen to sit out a round, and get put in the next round.
The wording of this clue was chosen very carefully, as Mme.Miscellania found that this clue is in the form of a 8-10-8 haiku. If they had put "robots" in instead of "'bots", this would not be a haiku. I really think there is something behind the poetry behind this clue. The obvious lack of capitalization and punctuation leads more credence to the fact that this is in fact poetry. So why 8-10-8 haiku?

Can this 8-10-8 be refering to something in the game? Will there be a 10' high goal/hanging bar on the center ramp/stairs, and two 8' high [possibly mobile] goals at each end of the field? Or can the form of a haiku (which starts out at a set value, increses by two sylables, and then goes back to its original value, as in 5-7-5 or 8-10-8) lead us to something in the game? Will there be something that is flat, goes up 2 feet (or inches) and then returns to normal in the field? This would lead us back to the Butte idea.

Would there be a simple 2x4 flat on the ground that spans the width of the field, requiring teams to have at least 2" or ground clearance if they want to go past/over it? Dave did mention this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=409865&postcount=12) in reference to someone talking about implementing a mecenum drive this year. With a 2x4 spaning the field, a mecanum drive would prove to be a difficult drive system to implement successfully.

Okay, now to another issue. There will most likely be a rectanglar field this year, with a similar size to last year's field. The field will most likely not become bigger. Let's go back to the regional logistics issue. Some competition venues (especially off-season events held in high school gymnasiums) simply cannot hold a pentagonal or hexagonal field with 15ft plus side lengths. When FIRST actually did have hexagonal fields, there were no off-season competitions to worry about. That is all changed now.

This year's game (at least playing field wise) will probably be similar to 2003 or 2004, with a large step/ramp in the middle of the field. This will be the case because of television/audience viewing. In the 2005 game, as exciting as it was for the drive team/coach to try to keep up with everything on the field at once, the audience was often at a loss for what was going on. In their minds, all they saw was robots going everywhere, deposisting "little triangles" on top of seemingly random "big triangles". At least with the 2004 game, they could tell pretty easily that the point of the game is to get more balls (both small and big) into your goal than the opponent does into theirs. Let's all remember that a large portion of the audience doesn't spend six weeks memorizing the rules of the game. ;)


With about two weeks to go until Kickoff, let's start trying to actually make a game out of all the suggestions/ideas so far in this thread. I may be no Car Nack, but using previous ideas from this thread, I am trying to make a game to go along with them. ;)

Let's take this clue deciphering to the next level. :cool:


Here's what I thought up, the new 2006 FIRST game: [I]"Sky High Frenzy"

This year will present us with a simple objective - get more of your alliance's color footballs into the goals. There will be a 3x3 game, with a field the same size the 2005 field - 27' by 52'. I am guestimating that there will be a pentagonal ramp (with maybe a 1/3 angle, and 8 or 10 foot sidelengths at the base) in the center of the field, with a flat top. This flat top will have one neutral (aka "low goal") in the center of it. Either alliance will be able to score footballs into this "low goal". Footballs in this "low goal" will be worth 5 points each. To prevent a robot from simply pushing footballs into this pit (or from robots falling into into it), a 18" wall (made of aluminum pipe and green Lexan panels) will surround it.

In the middle of this "low goal" pit, there will be a 10' high "high goal". Any footballs in this will be worth double (10 points each). This high goal will also be neutral. Whoever has more balls in the center goal (which includes the "low goal" and the "high goal"), will gain a 2x multiplier for all of their balls in the center goals.

Each alliance will also have one mobile goal, measuring 8' high. Each alliance will only be able to score in their own mobile goal.

There will be eighty footballs scattered about the field, with forty red ones and forty blue ones. There will be an additional eight footballs for each human player of the correct alliance color. This makes a total of 128 footballs. The footballs will be in four rows of twenty each on the field. To make the game interesting, one set of each alliances' balls will be located on the oppisite end of the field. Robots will be able to score the footballs themselves, or pass them to human players (like 2004), who would throw be able to throw the footballs into any of their three goals (their own mobile goal, the "high goal" or the "low goal".

If a team gets onto the ramp at the end of the match, they will get either a 20 or 25 point bonus. There will only be room for one robot one each of the five sides of the pentagonal ramp.


Okay, enough brainstorming for me for one night. Now its your turn to make revisions, additions, propose entirely new objects, or make a totally different game. Let's all get that pinkish grey blob in our heads into high gear by Kickoff! :p

amos229
26-12-2005, 23:02
wow. i have just one question how are you guys coming up with this. i have heard of thinking outside the box but this blows the box up also. i also think that many people are still skipping somewthing crucial. the bannana in the blue bot picture. i think that the bannana represents a low coefficient of friction surface like a few years ago. just my opinion

Ian Curtis
26-12-2005, 23:09
While I'm not quite ready to take the plunge like Art has, I did notice something of interest. In this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=424830#post424830) picture by Mr. Lavery Mr. Shovel-bot is shown surrouded by a line. Upon examination such a line exists no where in the 2005 animation. I don't have the '04 or '03 animations available and they appear to have been lost in the shuffle on NASA's website. However, I don't recall said lines on either field, nor do I see them in picture from the photo gallery. Unless we are being hoodwinked, which isn't exactly a new phenomenon, we are looking at part of the '06 field.

Mr. Shovel-bot is almost entirely enclosed by the blue line, except in the top of the picture you see the line ends. From the supposed size of these robots I can gather that we are seeing around 4 feet of at least an|_ shaped line, more likely a |_| shaped design. This begins the question, why is the robot facing the line? Are we viewing the loading zone of 2006?!!

So the whole point of this post? Folks, there aren't going to be people scoring footballs or whatever the game object is. There will be people giving said object to the robots for the robots to score.

PS: I'm still trying to figure out what that bannana is there for. Is it hiding something?

Paul Copioli
26-12-2005, 23:15
I read every darn page of this thread.

With that said, no one has mentioned the fact that Joe Montana went to Notre Dame. Notre Dame's colors: green and gold. Does it mean anything? I don't know.

I am putting my money on footballs as the game piece. I am putting someone elses money on 1/2 the time you play offense and 1/2 the time you play defense.

-Paul

amos229
26-12-2005, 23:28
well, i dont follow footbal can someone help me out. who is joe montana. i know stupid question but cant help aking. other than that i gotta agree with pual. wait a minute if this thread has sucked paul in wheres JVNeun?lol :confused: . well thats it for now

Elgin Clock
26-12-2005, 23:42
well, i dont follow footbal can someone help me out. who is joe montana. i know stupid question but cant help aking.

No problem, I don't follow sports too much either, I just know of Joe from other people loving the 49ers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Montana For you.

Oh, and for all the Montana state references, here's one for you.

"In 1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993), the town of Ismay, Montana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismay%2C_Montana) temporarily changed its name to Joe, Montana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe%2C_Montana) in an honorary gesture."

1993 huh? What was the game again in that year?

Karthik
26-12-2005, 23:52
well, i dont follow footbal can someone help me out. who is joe montana. i know stupid question but cant help aking. other than that i gotta agree with pual. wait a minute if this thread has sucked paul in wheres JVNeun?lol :confused: . well thats it for now

Joe Montana career capsule (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=154).

We're probably talking about the greatest QB of all time. (And this praise is coming out of the mouth of a die-hard Cowboys fan!)

One thing about Joe Montana that hasn't been touched on, is that he won two Cotton Bowls while playing for Notre Dame. I have no real insight as to what that could mean, but I'm sure one of you will come up with some sort of theory.

Mike
27-12-2005, 00:01
No problem, I don't follow sports too much either, I just know of Joe from other people loving the 49ers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Montana For you.

Oh, and for all the Montana state references, here's one for you.

"In 1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993), the town of Ismay, Montana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismay%2C_Montana) temporarily changed its name to Joe, Montana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe%2C_Montana) in an honorary gesture."

1993 huh? What was the game again in that year?
The 1993 year was called Rug Rage.
http://www.firstwiki.org/Rug_Rage

and each water-filled ball is worth one point.


Everybody has perceiving a water game as a game where robots are submersed in water. What about a game where you must manipulate water? Has anyone ever thought of how to manipulate a fluid?

Mike Schroeder
27-12-2005, 01:28
five 'bots tangling with pasta -- Not sure about this, but i am betting it has something to do with the robots being tethered
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show - Something scoop able
and seeing Montana's green heights - on/near/around the rockies in Montana there are an awful lot of Golf courses

My guess is the game piece is Golf balls, a whole lot of them being scooped up

Henry_Mareck
27-12-2005, 01:35
Well, after reading this entire thread after getting home from vacation, i have my own conclusions.
(the numbers with decimals are a result of my laziness to replace all the ones after it)
#1. I think 5 robots is unlikley, but still possible
#1.5. I think the 5 prime idea was great. I am all for 3v3 again.
#2. Footballs seem likley. However, so do batons. pvc with footballs on the ends? :confused:
#2.5. I think there will be a raised, center object. A pentagon shaped object, that has ramps coming off of each side. 5 spaces for robots, one team does not have a chance for extra points at the end. Maybe a goal in the middle, but maybe not.
#3. The fully listed-out game a few posts ago seems possible enough, but do you wanna set up up to 80 footballs on every two minutes? 5 or 10 green footballs seems mor likley. (like vision tetras?)
#4. I think "oro y plata" means "gold and silver" in spanish. (correct me if im wrong). Maybe there will be a few gold + silver objects worth Über points
#5. Thinking back, is Montana too far north to have significant spanish speaking segment of population? maybe its french.

Elgin Clock
27-12-2005, 01:52
#4. I think "oro y plata" means "gold and silver" in spanish. (correct me if im wrong). Maybe there will be a few gold + silver objects worth Über points
#5. Thinking back, is Montana too far north to have significant spanish speaking segment of population? maybe its french.

1) It is spanish, and that's what it is meant to mean on the flag itself.
(I'm glad somebody finally mentioned this. - I won't have to explain myself in depth when I come up with my long hypothesis post later on. w00t.)

2) When the flag was made, the country was still divided up into territories. Spanish settlers could of had a larger role than they do now in Montana at the time as opposed to the assumed large population of French(Canadian) who are now currently just north of Montana in Canada and may be in Montana as well.

Nuttyman54
27-12-2005, 02:00
(I'm glad somebody finally mentioned this. - I won't have to explain myself in depth when I come up with my long hypothesis post later on. w00t.)


you've been hinting at this for a while...just how LONG will the post be anyways???:ahh:

Elgin Clock
27-12-2005, 02:14
you've been hinting at this for a while...just how LONG will the post be anyways???:ahh:

Oh.. it'll be a doozy.. I'm just glad I won't have to share everything I thought of.. cause some people are starting to stumble upon some connections.

Tomorrow probably.

RbtGal1351
27-12-2005, 03:18
Oh.. it'll be a doozy..
I can't wait... After reading that thread for the past way-too-many hours, without catching up AT ALL until the past hour. Everyone was posting so fast, I was always five pages behind... :ahh: But here I am finally. Yay.

So my ideas...

five 'bots
The first thing I thought was, "Well we know we WON'T have five robots on the field because that would be obvious."
But here is another idea, an interesting version of 2v2v1 (Credit to my dad):
There are two alliances of two robots/teams on the field, competing against each other. There is also one neutral robot. The neutral robot can decide to either help one of the two other alliances or do some neutral-robot-only task. (Strategy would be important to decide this.) This robot can't win or lose, just help out.
^ I liked the idea until I realized this would be hard to do during final rounds.

Accoding to the first entry in this thesarus, obsessed is a synonym for controlled. So a game piece controlled by a shovel's show? Perhaps the shovel part alludes to how the game piece might be manipulated, and therafore what shape it might be.
So... depending on how well you are shovelling (your show) the game piece will be easier to get later, (after you're done shovelling?). Hmmm, I don't know what you're shovelling though.

Zach Purser
27-12-2005, 07:57
It's interesting that the clue is in the form of an extended haiku (8-10-8).
Now, haiku are normally 5-7-5 patterns, so maybe this year's competition has an alternating number of robots on the field - maybe one robot out of six is chosen to sit out a round, and get put in the next round.

Maybe it's my southern dialect, but I only count 7 syllables in the first line.
five 'bots tangling with pasta
1 1 2 1 2
Can someone help me out here?

So if we assume that adding "Ro" to the "'bots" in first line would make the haiku correct, and the shovel actually points to "RO" and not "ORO", the we have a game piece obsessed with completing the haiku! Er... what's that mean?

Andrew Blair
27-12-2005, 10:09
Okay, this is somewhat off the topic of the official hint, but remember the baton hint Dave gave us a few months ago? Well, Tammy Trimble was included in the hint, but I don't remember anyone figuring out who she was. Now, heres a post by Dave in the summer of 2004, referencing Tammy Trimble, but still no real explanation as to who she is. Any ideas?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=266969&postcount=5

dez250
27-12-2005, 10:17
Okay, this is somewhat off the topic of the official hint, but remember the baton hint Dave gave us a few months ago? Well, Tammy Trimble was included in the hint, but I don't remember anyone figuring out who she was. Now, heres a post by Dave in the summer of 2004, referencing Tammy Trimble, but still no real explanation as to who she is. Any ideas?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=266969&postcount=5

Tammy works for FIRST.

Not2B
27-12-2005, 10:18
[QUOTE=Zach Purser]Maybe it's my southern dialect, but I only count 7 syllables in the first line.
five 'bots tangling with pasta
1 1 2 1 2
Can someone help me out here?
QUOTE]


I think the question is on tangling.

Tang - Ling => 2
Tan - gle - ing => 3
I don't know which is correct - so I looked it up in the dictionary. I couldn't figure out the pronunceation guide. So I looked it up in a different dictionary, used the pronunciation key in the front... and I THINK it's 3. Looked it up in a third... and I think it said 2. I have no idea.

I'm like a lawyer reading a CNC program. Lost.

Billfred
27-12-2005, 10:21
[QUOTE=Zach Purser]Maybe it's my southern dialect, but I only count 7 syllables in the first line.
five 'bots tangling with pasta
1 1 2 1 2
Can someone help me out here?
QUOTE]


I think the question is on tangling.

Tang - Ling => 2
Tan - gle - ing => 3
I don't know which is correct - so I looked it up in the dictionary. I couldn't figure out the pronunceation guide. So I looked it up in a different dictionary, used the pronunciation key in the front... and I THINK it's 3. Looked it up in a third... and I think it said 2. I have no idea.

I'm like a lawyer reading a CNC program. Lost.

Even with my Southern drawl (ha), it's tan-guhl-ing. Three syllables. (Tangle is two, the -ing suffix adds the third.)

Andrew Blair
27-12-2005, 10:22
^ No, no, your right. If you say Tangle, then add the -ing, it works out to three. I'm not a great english person, but I don't think Tang- , -Gling, is the correct pronunciation.

phrontist
27-12-2005, 10:45
Got tired of waiting for Godot, gone looking for him...
EDIT: Mr. Lavery pointed out that Godot is capitalized, my mistake.

Waiting for Godot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot) is a crazy artsy play about people waiting for a guy that never comes, or as wikipedia so aptly says:

This intentionally uneventful and repetitious plot symbolizes the tedium and meaninglessness of human life which is a common theme of existentialism.

Make of that what you will :D

lukesrobowoman
27-12-2005, 12:20
Montana also means mountain in Spanish

Zach Purser
27-12-2005, 12:48
[QUOTE=Not2B]

Even with my Southern drawl (ha), it's tan-guhl-ing. Three syllables. (Tangle is two, the -ing suffix adds the third.)


tan·gle -
v. tan·gled, tan·gling, tan·gles
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tangling

Two syllables.

Ian Curtis
27-12-2005, 12:56
Refererence: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41024

Many interesting points have been brought up about this picture. In the second ripple down I see what appears to be 4 colored orbs encased in a piece of flatbar. I think that these may be lights added to the place where the operators and coach stand. This would place the robot right in front of the diamond plate wall. This places my loading zone (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424917&postcount=290) directly in front of the directly in front of the diamond plate. This makes me thing that we may be seeing not a loading zone, but maybe an unloading zone like in 2004.

T-minus 261 hours til revelation.

Nuttyman54
27-12-2005, 13:41
Refererence:
Many interesting points have been brought up about this picture. In the second ripple down I see what appears to be 4 colored orbs encased in a piece of flatbar.

T-minus 261 hours til revelation.

i think those are the eyes of the robot...remember how Dave makes all the robots cartoonish, and uses the same ones in every animation? I think that's the little guy that always gets picked on...

however, i DO like your idea of an unloading zone

ahecht
27-12-2005, 14:23
So there is a lot of talk about Montana, and about a shovel's show. What if the shovel's show is the show a shovel would watch? Look at the Montana flag again:
http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst043.gif

What show are the shovels watching? The sunset (if the sun is over the mountains in Montana, it is a sunset)? The green field? The waterfall?


#4. I think "oro y plata" means "gold and silver" in spanish. (correct me if im wrong). Maybe there will be a few gold + silver objects worth Über points

Hmm, something with Gold on it being worth Über points? Where have I seen that before? (http://users.wpi.edu/~savage/Archives/2004/rules.html)


true that residential gps is +/- 10 feet but differential gps is good down to a few inches... the only problem is GPS doesn't work inside, it is hard to get line of sight with satellites when there is a roof in the way. :-P

as for my opinion i like the idea of a robotic field element and small game elements piled up (golf balls) anyway we will find out soon enough.

There are so-called "Local Positioning Systems (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-42,GGLG:en&q=Local+Positioning+System)" that are designed to work indoors. They basically use GPS technology, but with local transmitters instead of satellites. They are used in everything from automated warehouses to theme park rides (Pooh's Hunny Hunt in Tokyo Disneyland uses such a system to guide multiple vehicles around small rooms without colliding, so it is certainly accurate enough).

However, I doubt that FIRST will use such a GPS based system due to the cost of each team needing one to practice with. Of course, there are cheaper ways of helping robots find their position on the field...

jerry w
27-12-2005, 14:26
there is another pasta not yet mentioned. elbow macaroni.
the 3-inch pvc elbows are readily available at home depot. painted red, blue, yellow, green, and white, we could have a tangle of robots attempting to retrieve the proper color from the holding bin.
setup is easy for the field crew, since they can quickly fill the holding bin with the 50 or so pvc elbows.

jerry w

Robyn Needel
27-12-2005, 14:51
This just struck me, in reading the thread and thinking about football...players tangle in football all the time - whenever a pass is thrown or the ball is fumbled...maybe the tangle is a pile of balls?
=============================




five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

Art04 and I kicked this one around quite a bit and I agree with most of his points. What most people are missing in the game clue is that last year's clue was hinting at the GAME NAME. Montana's "Big Sky" country. So "Sky High" is right on for a game name. :cool:

"Five 'bots" I'll stick with 3v3. FIRST is always trying to get as many teams into the finals as possible. 1v1v1v1v1 would be reducing potential finalists by 1 robot possibly, and 1v1v1v1v1 games are not TV friendly. Viewers who aren't into FIRST wouldn't understand the game easily. Two teams of bots squaring off, that's easy to understand. If FIRST is to grow, they'll need to get more and more bots involved in games for the action and TV viewability. A third alliance, green? No, FIRST's colors are red white and blue, not green.

"pasta" Again, why is everyone assuming pasta is refering to spaghetti. Shells are shaped very much like footballs. Tieing in with the Joe Montana thought and JVN's gridiron vex bot. Those who look for trends in FIRST games thought this year would be a ball game again. Well what are footballs? Besides, has anyone thought about how the Human Player would interact with the bots? Noodles and pipes don't offer too many options that would be safe (javelin throw anyone?) or TV friendly. Footballs would again bring the athletic side to the HP position.

But if you really want to confuse yourself, just check out all the weird shapes of pasta. Spirals anyone (hmmm, Archemedes screws) or wagon wheels (Westward Ho..... to Montana!) :eek:

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show" Can you think of a better way to pick up footballs? or see below on the shovel's show = dig hole thought.

"and seeing Montana's green heights" seeing = CMU2 cam. I think its here to stay. Afterall, it is prominently displayed on the IFI page on robotics. "green heights" the vision target will be elevated. Tie this with the five bots and the new KOP high traction wheels and its a center raised platform with the target on top. Possibly five sided slope or five goal pits set into the platform (there's your holes gang). Make the ramps out of lexan and viewers can see what's in the goals :confused: . Low cost fields don't need this viewability so plywood would work. Goals being owned by which alliance has the most balls in the goal. (Similar to this year's FVC game) By having a center raised platform it keeps most of a TV camera's focus on mid-field (TV friendly viewing).

With the vision target at the top of a midfield ramp(s), the only question is what's the goal of autonomous this year and what happens when a team acheives autonomous success? :rolleyes:

More fuel for your thoughts. Anyone want to pick up this (foot)ball and run with it?

Dr.Bot
27-12-2005, 15:37
I haven't had a chance to read all the posts.(I am visiting relatives and have only 5 minutes left of my hour of leased Internet) But five bots bothers me. So Here are two devious possibilities.

1. There is a "house" or official bot, that has to be overcome - to be overcome it must be neutral, or able to be utilized fairly by the other robots in some manner. I like this better than:

2. Five robots are on the field, but the alliances are formed after play begins either as a strategy or by some random event. (I would think this is too devious even for Dave Lavery to come up with, but I've learned never to underestimate Dave's ability to be devious in game design!)

About the green - you can bet that the CU-cam will be back, and the best programmers will have the best chance of doing well. About Montana, Climbing or putting something high (scooping up lots of objects, and them placing them in raised goals either by climbing a ramp or some sort of transport mechanism will be there.

And as always, there will be something the rookies will be able to do, if they have a platform that can move.

Finally, remember folks, the trick to winning is to score more points than the other team.

pyroslev
27-12-2005, 15:41
Finally read the hint. Brain is stewing. Wonder what it is...? Foam peanuts? Pool noodles? A hill control game? House Bots? So many possible meanings.


Guess we will now soon enough...

new idea: odd robot out or dig your allies out of a pit or pool noodles.
TOOOOOOOOOOO MANY IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ahh:

mvirts836
27-12-2005, 16:03
you might want to look at these to find the meaning of 'bots,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=%27bots&go=Go
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bot

also,
there might be 5 teams of 2 with each bot on two teams, (it's a stretch, I know)

funstuff
27-12-2005, 16:13
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/shelfish/razorclm/razor6.htm

This brings the "shovel" back to a donut shape like a hula hoop - as discussed in the earlier thread. OR It could be the inside of a pool noodle (http://www.bestbuypoolsupply.com/media/noodle.jpg).

Just some ideas for the objects of the game.

Michelle Celio
27-12-2005, 16:28
Im telling myself, dont go back to the thread...
but it's just too ...difficult not to

Maybe the game will have to do something with a foot ball type game? who knows.. ekk i need to stop.

I find it fairly funny, that 7 of the 10 most recent spotlight adds....come from this thread, one from the "2007 game hint?" one

Rob
27-12-2005, 16:55
During the 2004 season, I was having an "After Hours" conversation with someone who was somewhat involved with the game design. This guy mentioned that he had wanted an auto mode where teams selected their alliance partners or tasks based on their action (or inaction) in auto mode. He also liked the idea of a divided field where you pick what side you play on during auto mode.

Imagine not knowing who your partners were until auto! Crazy... I would not be surprised if you had to use visual autonomous control to find something (maybe green?) that would dictate either who your partners were or what your task was.

Maybe all the football references are correct, and you choose if you play offense or defense in auto mode. I envision a game like the one from American Gladiators where contestants tried to put soccer balls in little goals that were defended by the hosts. You pick if you play O or D during the auto mode. Who knows how you do rankings based on the results of matches, I am sure there are many ways.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I noticed that Paul Copioli continued with the Joe Montana/Notre Dame reference, and mentioned that ND's colors are green and gold (also happen to be the team colors of one of my favorite FIRST teams) Coincidence that Paul would hide a reference to JVN's old team? Hmm. Conspiracy if you ask me.

See you folks at Kickoff.

Rob

Zach Purser
27-12-2005, 17:21
Hey, I think ArkoRobotics is onto something:

So, look at the shovel: What's it pointing at(shovel's show)? ORO - What type of pasta sounds like ORO? ORZO! And by the way, orzo is a long, rice shaped object. Almost like a football. It also means barley in Italian, which is even more football shaped!

Or ORO could turn into Oreo. What pasta lools like an Oreo? Wagon wheels! And a wagon wheel would want to see Montana's green heights. So the game pieces will be wheels!

sdexp
27-12-2005, 17:40
There will be one robot controlling other robots from two different alliancees of two robots; and there will be "Oreo" game scoring objects which move up and down.

How's that for a rational idea?

Joe J.
27-12-2005, 17:41
I don't like the idea of teams getting to choose their alliances for the Qualifying Matches, Mainly for the same reasons of a free for all match you will either get several "strong" teams ganging up against the "weaker" teams, or several "weaker" teams ganging up against a "strong". Neither of which goes along with the ideals of FIRST. At least the way the system has been set up for the past several years all teams are on a level playing field when it come to alliances, during the Qualifying Matches anyway.

Just my opinion.

edthegeek
27-12-2005, 17:46
Joining kinda late.
I really don't think that the game will have to do with shoveling sand or snow. The FIRST people are not idiots and want an easy cleanup and reset.

Katy
27-12-2005, 18:39
The entire "should a sport cater to the audience" argument is fairly irrelevant. They do. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=383483) This said, whether we wish it to be or not, we have to think under this restriction.

The hint describes a game...not the game describing the riddle...so first I go at this from this direction...first set the parameters of the game.

FIRST Fields flatly have to be all the things required in the post linked to above...most of that can be condensed into cheap and safe. It also has to be fast moving and simple enough for a TV audience so that requires that the refs can read it fast and the field hands can set it up fast. We also have to assume it is the shape and size of a basketball court because the arenas have been rented already.

Foam noodles are very light and breakable but they are cheap to replace. They are also very safe. It would take quite a bit of talent to hurt yourself with one.

On the other hand footballs are also light, bit more durable and rather safe too...and America loves footballs. This might be FIRST's attempt to tap into another audience. However...how much does a single football cost? I honestly don't know what footballs cost but if they are more expensive than say...a plastic bin or the materials for a tetra there might not be many of them on the field.

There is the possibility that both noodles and footballs are used and the footballs are thrown by human players.

I don't think FIRST will ever have a house robot. I may have to eat my words there but seriously it is a good deal more work than normal to reset, expensive, requires maintenance, and is a safety hazard if it gets beat up too badly and is not fixed. FIRST is often short volunteers to do everything already; where are they going to get a full pit crew to take care of a robot that runs every single match? You would probably need at least two of them unless you want to wait between every single match for the motors to cool. That isn't even counting the cost of teams making a mock house robot.

A lot of people are talking about going up a ramp to either a hole or a platform. I'd say platform here because if a robot gets stuck in a hole and another robot drives over it it poses a very grave danger...especially to an electrical board.

That field might be valid but if that is all the game is it would probably descend very quickly into a competition of plowbots. I'm sure FIRST has considered this too...so perhaps there is another scoring area? Maybe one up high?

I think the thing about the camera is that yes it is a hard task if you start from scratch but really the difficulty for a rookie team to complete that task is the amount of work between where the FIRST default code puts you and the end product. If the camera had more background code it might be quite reasonable. No matter what however I'd be willing to bet its back.

The game could very well be five vs five if the size of the robots was decreased. This would allow people to play more rounds, and more robots to go to championships. It would change up strategy considerably and would be a disadvantage only veterans would feel. Rookies are not locked in a 3x3x5 mindset so they don't feel a change but it would require some major changes for those teams who love reusing their old designs.

This may be wishful thinking but I think the days of the multipliers are over. People (viewers especially) need to be able to add the scores in real time.

Also...my friend said that once upon a time there was a cartoon character named Montana Max. Anybody know if this has any relation at all?

Also...in case this helps anybody

Major mountain ranges of Montana are: Little Rockey Mountains, Bear's Paw Mts, Sweetgrass Hills, Lewis Range, Rocky Range, Whitefish Range, Salish Mts, Purcel Mts, Cabinet Mts, Coeur D'Alene Mts, Mission Mts, Swan Range, Garnet Range, Big Belt Mts, Little Belt Mts, Highwood Mts, Castle Mts, Snowy Mts, Judith Mts, Big Sheep Mts, Bridger Range, Castle Mts, Tobacco Root Mts, Highland Mts, Anaconda Range, Beaverhead Mts, Tendoy Mts, Blacktail Mts, Snowcrest Mts, Graverly Range, Madison Range, Gallaton Range, Absaroka Range, Beartooth Mts, Pryor Mts, Big Horn Mts, and Wolf Mts

"Bridger" mountains sound promising but other than that nothing pops out at me.

Also to throw one last thought out there...green could have a double meaning and also be "money" aka points.

Zach Purser
27-12-2005, 18:43
Joining kinda late.
I really don't think that the game will have to do with shoveling sand or snow. The FIRST people are not idiots and want an easy cleanup and reset.

I don't think anyone seriously expects that we will be shoveling sand, or snow, or anything messy like that. Even resetting a field with something the size of golf balls or tennis balls would be difficult. I think the most feasible game pieces mentioned so far, in no particular order, are:

1)Footballs - the clue has several hints that could be taken as football references, the strongest of which is the Joe Montana reference. There is also a general expectation (although I'm not sure where it comes from) that FIRST will return to balls this year. The danger is this expectation could lead people to find ball references where they are not intended.

2)Pool noodles - which would be a clear reference to pasta, although their durability is questionable making it a somewhat less likey choice.

3)PVC pipe - similar in shape to pool noodles but more durable

4)PVC elbows - I find this one intriguing. The elbows are of course the reference to pasta and the durability of these would be higher than pool noodles.

All of these options could be reset on the field in a reasonable amount of time and could be easily cleaned up at the end of the day. Additionally, they are all reasonably priced so that the teams can set up practice fields with as many game pieces as needed.

Bill Moore
27-12-2005, 19:28
Okay, I'm probably the last person in this thread to take Dave's animation picture, blow it up with IrfanView, and examine it in detail.

The object does look as if it is a banana; I cannot imagine anything else being skewed enough to end up with that shape. With that in mind, there are three possible conclusions:

1) As already mentioned, there will be a difficulty posed by slippery conditions this year (slippery field or slippery game objects), or
2) Since the robot appears to be carrying the banana, the game objects this year are banana or sickle shaped, or
3) Dave is indicating the special musical guest during the kickoff broadcast will be Tally Hall (http://www.tallyhall.com/video.php?v=1133570630.mov#theater)

Henry_Mareck
27-12-2005, 20:19
What if Montana's green hights are green, football shaped goals that are set up in different positions before the match, like the vision tetras.

KillerCows456
27-12-2005, 20:24
Im sorry if im a little slow but can someone link Dave's animation i want to take a look at it.
Thank you in advance.

Nuttyman54
27-12-2005, 20:39
Im sorry if im a little slow but can someone link Dave's animation i want to take a look at it.
Thank you in advance.

all we have right now is a picture of what would APPEAR to be Dave's animation...here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41024)

KillerCows456
27-12-2005, 20:53
all we have right now is a picture of what would APPEAR to be Dave's animation...here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41024)

Thank you alot. Now time to spend countless minutes staring at it.

bobl
27-12-2005, 20:57
The Shovel Show was an art exhibit at the Highwire Gallery. Maybe some sort of highwire traversing going on either by bots or game pieces?

Simon Strauss
27-12-2005, 21:12
1. There is a "house" or official bot, that has to be overcome - to be overcome it must be neutral, or able to be utilized fairly by the other robots in some manner. I like this better than:



i like this idea, i know this is a stretch but what are the chances of the traditional center piece of the field (or maybe moving) was a FIRST robot (the fifth bot) and scoring was to be done by placing or removing something from it. This might also explain the banana in Dave's picture and the "freshly picked for me" (or something like that) line in the Terry Hall song that Bill Moore gave the link to, maybe a banana shaped or noodle shaped has to be picked from it. the Green heights line would infer that this could be done in autonomous for extra points. this idea would also make sense of the Tangling with pasta line being how tangling sounds a lot like dangling and the tangle aspect might mean that the house bot is trying to protect the objects. bobl also mentioned that shovel's show appeared at the highwire gallery which also supports this hypothesis of mine.


idea #2
maybe 5 bots tangling with pasta means a flag football or tag type game, which would explain the possible Joe Montana reference.

ahecht
27-12-2005, 21:24
I don't think FIRST will ever have a house robot. I may have to eat my words there but seriously it is a good deal more work than normal to reset, expensive, requires maintenance, and is a safety hazard if it gets beat up too badly and is not fixed. FIRST is often short volunteers to do everything already; where are they going to get a full pit crew to take care of a robot that runs every single match? You would probably need at least two of them unless you want to wait between every single match for the motors to cool. That isn't even counting the cost of teams making a mock house robot.

FIRST had house bots long before Robot Wars did. IIRC, the 1993-1998 games used a placebo (http://www.firstwiki.org/Placebo) bot during the finals.

Andrew Blair
27-12-2005, 21:54
http://www.bestbuypoolsupply.com/media/noodle.jpg

Looking at the "Big Boss" size pool toys, I'm having second thoughts about discounting the pool toys as possible game objects. That big foam tube wouldn't be that easy to break, and with the price(about two bucks apiece, so for FIRST, maybe like $1. I'd imagine they get at least bulk discounts.) You could afford to chuck one or two every match.Thats like 250 bucks, in a worst case scenario, per regional. Not too bad, considering how many tetras kicked the bucket during play. And they were much more expensive per piece. Now, the problem comes in two parts:

1. Thats alot of stuff to fit into Mike Wade's trailer. It's big...But so are like 500 pool noodles!

2. What happens when the toys get chipped up? The things can probably get beat around awhile before they are completely destroyed, but in the meantime, they'd get chipped up and become less handleable. A tetra was eother broken, or not. Simple as that. A ball was either useable, or not. A bin was either broken, or not. Pool toys are a bit more destructible.

So, I still have my money on footballs, but there might be new light shed on the pool toys.

John Gutmann
27-12-2005, 21:54
#4. I think "oro y plata" means "gold and silver" in spanish.

Wasn't one of the 49ers colors gold and the shovel is pointing to the word that means gold. And Joe Montana played football for the 49ers. hmmm..... :rolleyes:

Katy
27-12-2005, 22:05
Originally Posted by ahecht
FIRST had house bots long before Robot Wars did. IIRC, the 1993-1998 games used a placebo bot during the finals.
My apologies. Would somebody be so kind as to pass me the ketchup? :p

I read through FIRSTwiki but there is very little information about those robots. They don't appear to be designed to affect gameplay much...did they? If so how were the bots kept neutral...I am sure at some point it sat in a spot where somebody would have liked to be. How were they maintained? In short does anybody have any further information on previous house robots?

artdutra04
27-12-2005, 22:43
I read through FIRSTwiki but there is very little information about those robots. They don't appear to be designed to affect gameplay much...did they? If so how were the bots kept neutral...I am sure at some point it sat in a spot where somebody would have liked to be. How were they maintained? In short does anybody have any further information on previous house robots?
Here are two pictures of the vacuum placebo robot from 1997. If you want more information about placebo robots, please see this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39910), where Andy Grady recently enlightened us about the history of placebo robots in FIRST. :D

http://www.bergen.org/FIRST/REGIONAL/regional_the_placebo.JPG http://www.bergen.org/FIRST/REGIONAL/regional_the_placebo_2.JPG

I don't know if anyone else noticed it, but in the Montana state flag, there are three plateaus, with the highest at the left, and the lowest at the water. Does this mean anything about the game? Will we see the return of stairs?

http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst043.gif

Also, despite pool noodles being cheap, they will probably never be used. If you thought seeing PVC tetras fall apart was bad, the utter cataclysmic anhiliation of pool noodles would totally dwarf it.

Although it may not seem like it, to build a full-size tetra for the 2005 game cost anywhere from $10-15 each. While redeeming gift cards at D.ick's Sporting Goods (http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/) today, I noted the cost of the generic footballs at $11.99. So the price of a football would not be that bad. Footballs would also be almost indestructible. It would be very hard to try to pop one, although not impossible.

Another thing that we need to consider when thinking about playing field objects is the "cool" factor. The GDC would not pick something that an audience would not deem to be "cool". Footballs would definitely satisfy. So would balls, including soccer balls, kickballs, and large balls, etc. Tetras could be considered cool looking.

Also, I like the "green" as refering to money (aka points). This can mean that something high[er] could be worth more points? Is this like the 2005 game, where the highest tetra owns the stack? Or does this mean that something up higher than the rest of the field will be worth more points (like a high goal, or a hanging bar)?

If only all this food for thought happening in this thread could somehow be funneled into solving world hunger... :rolleyes:

buss
27-12-2005, 22:46
I just understood the banana reference.

The shovel show was at the highwire gallery. There will be a wire stretching across the field.

There will be some sort of object (football or pool noodle) hanging from the wire, which the robots will have to pick.

Terry in Terry Hall is similar to Tammy in Tammy Tremble (which is where the baton reference has come from), the song by terry hall mentions bananas and the line "freshly picked for me," this was pointed out above by nycpunk. This reinforces the idea that scoring objects will be hanging from a wire strung across the field.

Now, Lavery's frame from the animation...there's obviously water. In my opinion there are two possible interpretations of this: 1) there will be a trough filled with water under the wire that the scoring objects are hung from, or 2) there will be some sort of object to make getting directly under the wire impossible (or just really hard). This object may be green and could be a raised platform with no sides and a slippery surface. My guess is that each side of the field only has one access ramp at the edge of the field which is colored green for the camera during autonomous.

Now where to go from here...I'd hate to press my luck in sucessfully predicting the game. There will be a goal above the wire which will be the maximum scoring goal, however goals will only count if the objects hanging from the wire are used to score - and yes, half the objects will be colored for each alliance. There will be a goal for each alliance on the opposite alliance's side that accepts footballs. The alliances will start out with the maximum number of footballs, just like they did with tetras, and the robots will be loaded by human players or by autoloaders, just like last year.

I think i'm starting to stretch it, but I still think that there will be scoring objects hung from a wire stretching across the width of the field.

edit: There is a strong possibility that there will be 1 green scoring object directly under the high goal which can only be scored during autonomous.

Jonathan Norris
27-12-2005, 22:57
remember Lavery titled this as the 2007 hint, there is no way that they can implement water for this years game (look at multiple prior posts and threads). How do we even know if this picture even relates to this years game. Right now the only thing that I am confident about is the game piece being footballs. There is still a lot to find out about this game, don't look too much into Lavery's 2007 picture.

EricH
27-12-2005, 23:28
There is still a lot to find out about this game, don't look too much into Lavery's 2007 picture.
Or his comments about various elements in future games (stationary robots and parachutes come to mind). I mean, this is Dave we're dealing with. The 2007 picture should be let lie until after Championship 2006. I do not want to have to say this again, but there will be no water game in the forseeable future! And the banana "clue" did just what bananas do: it went bad. The forseeable future extends through approximately 2008, probably later. Now, back to the matter at hand...the 2006 hint.

EddieMcD
27-12-2005, 23:34
bot Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (bhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/obreve.gift)
n. A software program that imitates the behavior of a human, as by querying search engines or participating in chatroom or IRC discussions.

Is it sad that I completely forgot about autonomous? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't leave it out this year though, so I'll go with your definition.

So, look at the shovel: What's it pointing at(shovel's show)? ORO - What type of past sounds like ORO? ORZO! And by the way, orzo is a long, rice shaped object. Almost like a football. It also means barley in Italian, which is even more football shaped!
http://www.alacuisine.org/photos/uncategorized/orzo.jpg

So five prime (5+1=six) robots autonomously going though a bunch of footballs all over the field? Perhaps that's also where the shovelling comes in, though I'll still go with my passing theory.

For the record, I still have my circular hill with possible field goal. But one thing I find interesting is that we don't know how much of the game this may or may not be telling us. For all we know, this clue is just about the game piece and number of robots. Or it tells us the entire game. Or, they're just messing with our heads and the "clue" has absolutely nothing to do with the game... I guess time will tell.

663.keith
27-12-2005, 23:35
I woud agree that we shouldn't look too much into the 2007 "hint", I belive that dave's picture is just trying to fool and confuze us (even more :ahh: ) before kickoff, thereby creating the havoc and chaos he loves to see these few weeks we have left :D

On the pool noodles -- I like the idea of them being implemented in the game, it could be possible that FIRST could do something to make them more sturdy, they could possibly wrap them in duct tape. They would be practically indestructable

Nuttyman54
28-12-2005, 00:00
On the pool noodles -- I like the idea of them being implemented in the game, it could be possible that FIRST could do something to make them more sturdy, they could possibly wrap them in duct tape. They would be practically indestructable

FIRST wrapping pool noodles in Duct Tape would be a sight to see...and hey, it fits the Silver part of Oro Y Plata....

Dan Petrovic
28-12-2005, 00:16
http://www.bestbuypoolsupply.com/media/noodle.jpg

Looking at the "Big Boss" size pool toys, I'm having second thoughts about discounting the pool toys as possible game objects. That big foam tube wouldn't be that easy to break, and with the price(about two bucks apiece, so for FIRST, maybe like $1. I'd imagine they get at least bulk discounts.) You could afford to chuck one or two every match.Thats like 250 bucks, in a worst case scenario, per regional. Not too bad, considering how many tetras kicked the bucket during play. And they were much more expensive per piece. Now, the problem comes in two parts:



Those noodles will be torn apart a lot fast than two a match. If someone can tear them with their hands. It's pretty obvious that a robot will tear them to shreds. I'm not convinced about the pool noodles.

sanddrag
28-12-2005, 00:21
Maybe just some sort of large rubber hose? Those are very durable, and can be quite heavy.

evolution
28-12-2005, 00:26
Maybe just some sort of large rubber hose? Those are very durable, and can be quite heavy.
That's a really good point. Garden hose would be really durable, and if in small lengths, wouldn't make a tangled mess that is hard to take apart between matches.

Nuttyman54
28-12-2005, 00:26
Maybe just some sort of large rubber hose? Those are very durable, and can be quite heavy.

now why did it take 24 pages for someone to think of that?? it's so obvious it's painful. way to go sanddrag

Joe J.
28-12-2005, 00:42
Here's something I was just thinking about and haven't seen posted yet the 2006 game will be the 15th FRC game... What does this have to do with the clue most likely nothing but the clue was structured into three lines and the number 5 is in the clue 3 x 5 = 15

Also Montana became a state in 1889 100 years later FIRST was founded... :ahh: Its also the 41st state 4 + 1 = 5... there's that 5 again.

These are just some interesting facts I found on Montana's Official State Website (http://mt.gov/default.asp) .

You can pretty much connect anything to anything if you look hard enough.

Henry_Mareck
28-12-2005, 00:59
I don't think garden hose would be be easy to manipulate, and it would be a strange game piece. (not that strange is bad)
Are the bigger/wider hoses easily/cheaply available? Fire hoses are bigger but they dont hold the traditional round+hollow macaroni or hose shape unless they are filled with water.
I still like the idea of PVC elbows or footballs.

Nuttyman54
28-12-2005, 01:15
I don't think garden hose would be be easy to manipulate

yeah well that's part of the challenge...we've gotten too good w/ balls

Bill Moore
28-12-2005, 01:20
Or his comments about various elements in future games (stationary robots and parachutes come to mind). I mean, this is Dave we're dealing with. The 2007 picture should be let lie until after Championship 2006. I do not want to have to say this again, but there will be no water game in the forseeable future! And the banana "clue" did just what bananas do: it went bad. The forseeable future extends through approximately 2008, probably later. Now, back to the matter at hand...the 2006 hint.
So, you're saying the closer someone gets to figuring the game out this year, the more red herrings Dave is going to loose upon us? That would indicate that the answer is already posted. Has anyone been following the timeline of posts vs. Dave's extraneous clues?

Katy
28-12-2005, 02:17
Originally Posted by Bill Moore
So, you're saying the closer someone gets to figuring the game out this year, the more red herrings Dave is going to loose upon us? That would indicate that the answer is already posted. Has anyone been following the timeline of posts vs. Dave's extraneous clues?

I'm going to put the whole "we don't know that Dave is doing that" idea aside and just look at the problems with collecting meaningful data on the trend.

I think we have to take into account that Dave (as far as I know) is not a program which downloads all entries to chiefdelphi and responds within a few seconds. If he logs in and out then time becomes divided up into a series of discreet blocks between logins. The pictures are also probably not made instantaneously and it is fairly likely he could put an idea aside and come back to it later (even making other posts in the meanwhile). Now consider that this entire thread is roughly five days old. The only way we could have enough points of reference would be if he was logged in/was posting very frequently. If he posts too frequently then he (presumably being human) begins multi-tasking and this wrecks the idea of a simple direct correlation because when you multi-task you are doing several things at once but at the same time prioritizing the amounts of effort you put into each. This reorders the tasks from their natural chronological order. If Dave has any sort of holiday celebrations this would put more constraints on his time and encourage more multi-tasking. I think if we were tracking this over a period of weeks or months we might be able to collect valid data but I don't think we can do it on such a short time span.

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 08:54
Also...my friend said that once upon a time there was a cartoon character named Montana Max. Anybody know if this has any relation at all?

I totally forgot about that lil guy. He was a mean kid in the Tiny Toon Adventures (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098929/) cartoons.

Picture of Montana Max http://www.thegremlin.com/WARNER.BROS/15794wb.JPG

If "Montana's heights" were referring to him, it definitely wasn't to his height. He was pretty short compared to the other characters. If anything, "Montana's green heights" would apply to the fact that he had a lot of green, or money.

Alex Burman
28-12-2005, 09:21
i must admit you guys are very creative

i think you might be going a bit too far and are now making easier for the gdc for future years to come up with other ideas, they'll take ones we've already come up with

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 09:26
Double post, but this is my big one.

OK, so:

five ‘bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel’s show
and seeing Montana’s green heights

five
+five sided star shaped field - http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=391653&postcount=14
+five different colored objects on the field.. Dare I say, Blue, Red, Yellow, Green, Orange?

five bots
+ 2001 format
+5vs0
+1vs1vs1vs1vs1


Tangling
+ Tether Rule (2002)
+Bewilderment
+Springs (rotini pasta)


pasta
+pool noodles (obvious assumption)
+rotini - Springs for game objects - NASA's rotini findings (http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=hf_mars_rotini_040301_02.jpg&cap=Opportunity%27s+Microscopic+Imager+found+this+ intriguing+object%2C+lookingmore+like+Rotini+pasta .+Its+odd+shape+has+stirred+up+Mars+researchers%2C both+inside+and+outside+of+the+NASA+Mars+Rover+Exp loration+team.+Whetheror+not+this+object+is+relate d+to+biology+has+prompted+a+variety+ofviews)
+Type of Pasta = Dumpling = Lord Dumpling =Dean Kamen or N. Dumpling Island http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/North+Dumpling
+Island

A game piece
+2001 (balls)

shovel’s
+Convey or rush together - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shovel (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shovel)
+2001 rehash?

shovel’s show
+Mike Mulligan - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395169615/002-8663684-3499204?v=glance&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395169615/002-8663684-3499204?v=glance&n=283155)
+Mulligan = Do-Over (Golf)
+2001
-Game Format – Co-Opertition
-Game Obstacle = Ramp

seeing
+CMU Cam or Other New Vision Sensor
What about something from Vision Components, Hudson, N.H. (www.vision-components.com (http://www.vision-components.com/)),
or http://www.junun.org/MarkIII/Info.jsp?item=48# That?

Montana’s
+ Joe Montana
-Leader In Passing
-Co-Operating (2001)
+Spanish = Mountain
-Plateau
+Montana’s State Seal
-Gold & Silver
-Woodie Flowers’ Bling Bling for the Brain
-Shovel pointing to ORA = Gold

green
-CMU Cam’s Main Color (2005)
-green - naive and easily deceived or tricked

heights
+Plateau (Multi-Level)
-King Of The Hill
-2004 (redo)
-2003 (redo)
-2001 (redo)




five ‘bots tangling with pasta
The concept of multiple robots co-operating has been a concept since 2001, but has left Lord Dumpling(Dean) bewildered why it hasn’t been accepted in FIRST.
(2001 was very unpopular due to the tournament structure of working together 4vs0)
Or
Five robots on the field getting caught up in an Island center obstacle.
Or
Five robots on the field getting caught up with pool noodles.
Or
Five robots on the field getting caught up with spring shaped objects.

a game piece obsessed with a shovel’s show
2001’s game piece (balls) obsessed with making a comeback. (Mulligan=redo)
Or
Golf balls marking the return of balls as a game object, with the object being to scoop them up.

and seeing Montana’s green heights
A multi level field, and or, shelving system to put objects in.


Go ahead folks, have fun expanding on those ideas.

I know I will in the future. I'm just done analyzing the clue for now.

MikeDubreuil
28-12-2005, 10:37
"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
I think of pasta as meatballs and spaghetti. I think a great game would involve the human players having balls (like 2000)
and the spaghetti being a new game object similar to a pool noodle. The pool noodles would be randomly placed around the field.

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
I think this refers to the balls that the human player will have. A shovel's show is that you can throw objects with it.
The human player will be throwing the balls at a scoring goal.

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
I liked how it was suggested that Joe Montana played for Notre Dame. Take a look at this picture of Notre Dame Cathedral (http://www.ross.navy.mil/images/paris/Notre%20Dame%20Cathedral.jpg). I think the main scoring goal will look similar to Notre Dame Cathedral. I wouldn't be suprised if we saw a hanging bar this year.

This game sounds very similar to 2000, just add pool noodles.

Bill Moore
28-12-2005, 11:12
"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
I think of pasta as meatballs and spaghetti. I think a great game would involve the human players having balls (like 2000)
and the spaghetti being a new game object similar to a pool noodle. The pool noodles would be randomly placed around the field.
Interesting thought. The pool noodles are not used for scoring, but are impediments to picking up balls, or for some robots moving about the field.

If that's so, then it really doesn't matter how much the noodles get destroyed at a regional, because they would get recycled (hopefully) after it is over. You'd have a constant consumable cost for each regional. Probably replacing the noodles periodically during quals and moreso during playoffs.

If the game is designed properly, these obstacles could put the kibosh on high speed ramming. Thereby, eliminating one of the rants people have about the referee's "judgement calls" concerning intent.

(I know, I know, build a better game, and the world isn't going to beat a path to your door, someone will just build a better "bash bot".)

Billfred
28-12-2005, 11:19
Interesting thought. The pool noodles are not used for scoring, but are impediments to picking up balls, or for some robots moving about the field.

If that's so, then it really doesn't matter how much the noodles get destroyed at a regional, because they would get recycled (hopefully) after it is over. You'd have a constant consumable cost for each regional. Probably replacing the noodles periodically during quals and moreso during playoffs.

If the game is designed properly, these obstacles could put the kibosh on high speed ramming. Thereby, eliminating one of the rants people have about the referee's "judgement calls" concerning intent.

(I know, I know, build a better game, and the world isn't going to beat a path to your door, someone will just build a better "bash bot".)

Dare I suggest that a game like this would be incentive for most teams to stick with the KOP transmissions? I mean, if what good is your fifteen-speed transmission if you can't move past the obstacles on the field?

Or suppose that instead of pool noodles, you had something else that's flexible, such as half-inch PVC pipe. Wicked strong, flexible, and hard to make a skirt for, especially if there are Triple Play-esque loading zones on the field that force teams not to use carpet-scraping skirts.

And suppose further that Montana's green heights refers to the ground. The green heights that Joe Montana worked on weren't that high, so perhaps we've got some low goal that we have to convey things under?

artdutra04
28-12-2005, 11:45
a game piece obsessed with a shovel’s show
2001’s game piece (balls) obsessed with making a comeback. (Mulligan=redo)
Or
Golf balls marking the return of balls as a game object, with the object being to scoop them up.
I don't think FIRST would implement golf balls as as the main scoring object. They are too small for a 3'x3'x5' FIRST robot. (Although it would be a good one for a Vex game.) If golf balls were the main scoring object, and a robot scooped up several hundred, and then somehow spilled them all out (http://www.killsometime.com/video/video.asp?ID=134), it would be horrible for field reset to try to round up every last golf ball. (Click on the link to see what I mean. ;))

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 12:03
I don't think FIRST would implement golf balls as as the main scoring object. They are too small for a 3'x3'x5' FIRST robot.

It was just a random thought. If anything, I'm leaning towards the mulligan (golf term for redo) part of the equation, rather than a golf ball itself.

Mr_I
28-12-2005, 12:36
Okay, so let's play word association ...

"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
- I also thought Pool Noodle

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
- shovel = spade?
- Sam Spade (portrayed by Humphrey Bogart) in "The Maltese Falcon"?

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
- Montana state tree = Ponderosa Pine?
- a tall, thin structure?


As far as digging below field level ...
What if the field included a ramp (Stack Attack), and the upper level involved digging down? Or perhaps you have to climb a ramp, traverse a pit full of noodles, to get to another place?


Keep thinking!

_______________________________________
Team 811: It's Not Just A Robot Thing!

Kit Gerhart
28-12-2005, 12:38
I don't think garden hose would be be easy to manipulate, and it would be a strange game piece. (not that strange is bad)
Are the bigger/wider hoses easily/cheaply available? Fire hoses are bigger but they dont hold the traditional round+hollow macaroni or hose shape unless they are filled with water.
I still like the idea of PVC elbows or footballs.
How about six foot lengths of 2 inch PVC pipe?

MikeDubreuil
28-12-2005, 12:41
Or perhaps you have to climb a ramp, traverse a pit full of noodles, to get to another place?
I love this idea! Couple it with my idea that the field will look like the Notre Dame Cathedral. Teams score balls in a tall structure like 2000. Except loose the ramp and hanging bar and add a ramp structure filled with pool noodles.

amos229
28-12-2005, 12:47
i am still leaning towards footbals. they are the only shape that hasnt been used yet that i know of.

Eldarion
28-12-2005, 12:58
Just a quick thought that I haven't seen here yet.

"Tangling" is another word for "fighting with". Is FIRST simply saying that we'll have a difficult time with this year's game pieces (again)?

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 13:03
i am still leaning towards footbals. they are the only shape that hasnt been used yet that i know of.

There are plenty of shapes that haven't been used as of current.

Exhibit A: Jacks (http://www.threefeatherspewter.com/images/Jacks.jpg)
Exhibit B: Spirals (http://www.autotech.com/catimages/springs-ast.jpg)
Exhibit C: Hearts (http://www.schools.pinellas.k12.fl.us/gallery/variety/Heart.gif)
Exhibit D: Stars (http://www.sticksnstitches.com/home-decor/star-napkin-holder.JPG)
Exhibit E: Cones (http://tecfa.unige.ch/guides/vrml/vrml97/spec/Images/cone.gif)

You get the point.

I personally want to see either Jacks, Spirals, or Cones used in a future game(s) to spice things up and lead away from the normal in the box thinking of using the shapes from the FIRST logo.

Zach Purser
28-12-2005, 13:31
There are plenty of shapes that haven't been used as of current.

Exhibit A: Jacks (http://www.threefeatherspewter.com/images/Jacks.jpg)
Exhibit B: Spirals (http://www.autotech.com/catimages/springs-ast.jpg)
Exhibit C: Hearts (http://www.schools.pinellas.k12.fl.us/gallery/variety/Heart.gif)
Exhibit D: Stars (http://www.sticksnstitches.com/home-decor/star-napkin-holder.JPG)
Exhibit E: Cones (http://tecfa.unige.ch/guides/vrml/vrml97/spec/Images/cone.gif)

You forgot moons, clovers, horseshoes, pots of gold, rainbows and red balloons!
http://www.generalmills.com/corporate/brands/brand.aspx?catID=69

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 13:32
You forgot moons, clovers, horseshoes, pots of gold, rainbows and red balloons!
http://www.generalmills.com/corporate/brands/brand.aspx?catID=69

Yeah, I know.. I didn't want to go too crazy though.. ya know? :rolleyes:

Cuog
28-12-2005, 13:40
If you take one of the pool noodles with the hole, insert a 1/2 in PVC pipe and wrap the whole deal in Duct tape you have a bauffer(http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Boffer/Images/Boffer-Weapons.jpg)
these are used as weapons in youth combat(http://www.dreiburgen.org/photos/qc-06-2k/BofferFighting02.jpg) in the SCA (http://www.SCA.org) they are nearly ind3estructible and cheap to make, they are still somewhat flexible but stiff like dried spaghetti and the hint seems to me as though it is strongly hinting about pool noodles.

also the hint states:
"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights"

it makes it sound as though the piece is obsessed with the shovels show and montana's green heights this could mean the the 5 bots will be the game peices, perhaps small and green seeking, or you have to retreive something that is up high and green and depsosit it in the little 'bot.

Henry_Mareck
28-12-2005, 13:52
hmmmmmm . . . horseshoes.
readily available and nearly indestructable.
too bad there is nothing about them in the hint.
or is there?

edit: do they ride horses a lot in the mountains of Montana?

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 14:04
hmmmmmm . . . horseshoes.
readily available and nearly indestructable.
too bad there is nothing about them in the hint.
or is there?

edit: do they ride horses a lot in the mountains of Montana?

I would lean away from real metal horseshoes, and more toward scaled up horseshoes. Redneck Style!

http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_horseshoes.htm

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 14:45
Double post again <sorry> ,but this one is way too hard to pass up.

Here's one for all you conspiracy theorists:
Lavery mentioned Tammy Trimble - A Google search on Trimble finds:
http://www.trimble.com/

Trimble is a leading innovator of Global Positioning System (GPS) (http://www.trimble.com/gps/) technology.

Still think indoor GPS is out of the question? :ahh:

w0w. If that isn't supposed to be a link, then I don't know what the odds are for the coincidence.

Richard Wallace
28-12-2005, 14:45
I would lean away from real metal horseshoes, and more toward scaled up horseshoes. Redneck Style!

http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_horseshoes.htmFor Inspiration of Redneck Science and Technology?

EricH
28-12-2005, 14:49
Remember the hint's first line: "five 'bots tangling with pasta"

Pasta could mean almost any shape (or even shape changing--try wetting pasta with water and see what happens). Lasagna noodles anyone? (flat with wrinkled edges)

By the way, why wasn't anything except "Montana" capitalized in the hint? Any ideas?

Joe J.
28-12-2005, 14:58
I like the idea of footballs as the game pieces:
They are:
A. small enough that they can be herded by the robots
B. large enough to make for easy field cleanup/reset
C. very durable
D. fairly cheap (name brand ones look to be about $15 off brand one could be less than $10
E. an odd shape FIRST hasn't used before

I'm seeing a game like this:
Two alliances red&blue each has 2 or so goals Theres X red footballs and X blue footballs in some kind of hopper loading system and the robots either have to heard them to the human player or the human player to the robots. As for the scoring, You get 5 points per football of your alliances color in your goal and 3 for each football of your opponents color in your goal. (5 x 3 = 15 *)
theres also several lets say 5 green footballs that up off the ground and during auto mode the robots had to find these green footballs and score them in the goals, they'd be worth maybe 15 points(*)

I know kind of sounds like 2004 but it would really depend on what the field looked like.

(*2006 game is FRC's 15th, the clue is structured into 3 lines and contains the number 5)

I remember reading something about Montana's grassy plains and the flag has a grassy plateau on it maybe the platform (if there is one) has a surface that is green, artificial grass maybe (a lot of football fields are surfaced in artificial grass, including the Georgia Dome)

skimoose
28-12-2005, 15:38
I'm leaning towards the mulligan (golf term for redo) part of the equation, rather than a golf ball itself.

Elgin does that mean these are the new referee uniforms? (http://www.elifesize.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Product_Code=221&Screen=PROD)

Don't football players tangle over a fumble? Or how about a rugby scrum? Then there's also the shovel pass. Also, just because the scoring object is football shaped who says its US football? Here's my favorite version of football, Australian Rules Football. Is this tangling? (http://www.essendonfc.com.au/images/04/r5g5.jpg)

They have an interesting goal scoring system using four vertical posts for different scoring possibilities. Hmmm, maybe I'll work this into my game thoughts> :rolleyes:

EddieMcD
28-12-2005, 16:30
five bots
+ 2001 format
+5vs0
+1vs1vs1vs1vs1
(underlined for emphasis)

Uh, Elgin, you spelled that wrong. It's "five 'bots".

Eagle Master convinced me that the apostrophe is there for a reason (specificially, he said it could be the symbol representing prime).

Doug G
28-12-2005, 16:41
How about six foot lengths of 2 inch PVC pipe?

I too was thinking about 6 or 8 foot lengths of 1-2 inch PVC coming up from the floor or from a moveable goal and robots either navigating through them or placing scoring objects (footballs) within them. That's what I first thought of when I read " 'bots tangling with pasta". PVC is cheap and widely accessible by all teams.

"Five 'bots" won't mean five robots competing, probably just five robots that fit into a given area like atop of a ramp or platform where the "pasta" is.

Those are my thoughts....

Elgin Clock
28-12-2005, 17:07
(underlined for emphasis)

Uh, Elgin, you spelled that wrong. It's "five 'bots".

Eagle Master convinced me that the apostrophe is there for a reason (specificially, he said it could be the symbol representing prime).

Prime has yet another meaning. In the game of backgammon:

What is a "prime"?

A prime is a sequence of six consecutive blocks. When a prime is in place, none of the opponent's checkers can move past as long as the prime remains intact. That's because a checker can't touch down on a blocked point and never moves more than six points in a single hop.


http://www.bkgm.com/rules/rul-faq.html

Not2B
28-12-2005, 17:17
5 'bots...

Could it be a 6 robot game but only 5 footballs?
or
Only 5 spots for robots at the end-game. They will have to tangle (fight) for those 5 spots, as someone is not going to get one.

It says 5 'bot tangling, but that doesn't mean the 6th bot isn't doing something else.

(But I still think it's 2v3, with some wild way of making the teams or a wild way of scoring the match)

phrontist
28-12-2005, 17:41
Prime is also the term that denotes the derivative of a function

So we have 5 fewer or greater bots :D

EddieMcD
28-12-2005, 18:33
Prime has yet another meaning. In the game of backgammon:

What is a "prime"?

A prime is a sequence of six consecutive blocks. When a prime is in place, none of the opponent's checkers can move past as long as the prime remains intact. That's because a checker can't touch down on a blocked point and never moves more than six points in a single hop.

http://www.bkgm.com/rules/rul-faq.html

Wouldn't that also support the 3 vs. 3 (6 robots, two alliances) format though, just like the prime number definition?

Henry_Mareck
28-12-2005, 22:58
Yea, it would support a 6 robot game (in my opinion)
I think there is allmost no chance of 3v2. I think 1v1v1v1v1 is more likely.
if it was 3v2, then there would have to some sort of a balancer, and some people would disagree that "the balancer" made it truly balanced. Balanced alliances without equal teams on each alliance would be a matter of opinion on what you think is more important. for example - whats worth more- advantage of numbers or advantage of game pieces worth more points? There is no right answer.

Karthik
29-12-2005, 00:21
five 'bots tangling with pasta

There's been some talk about how "prime" is a common way to denote a derivative. Well, if we go back to our introductory calculus course, we remember that the derivative of a constant function is precisely equal to zero. 5 is a constant.

Hence,

5' = 0

Therefore,

five' bots tangling with pasta
= zero bots tangling with pasta

... Just something to think about

Arkorobotics
29-12-2005, 00:43
There's been some talk about how "prime" is a common way to denote a derivative. Well, if we go back to our introductory calculus course, we remember that the derivative of a constant function is precisely equal to zero. 5 is a constant.

Hence,

5' = 0

Therefore,

five' bots tangling with pasta
= zero bots tangling with pasta

... Just something to think about

There you go! I was waiting for that idea to come up.

Adam Richards
29-12-2005, 00:52
There's been some talk about how "prime" is a common way to denote a derivative. Well, if we go back to our introductory calculus course, we remember that the derivative of a constant function is precisely equal to zero. 5 is a constant.

Hence,

5' = 0

Therefore,

five' bots tangling with pasta
= zero bots tangling with pasta

... Just something to think about
Or perhaps we can be a little creative using information other people have given:

5' = 5 + 1
5' = 0
5 + 1 = 0
5 = -1

negative one bots tangling with pasta :ahh:

Tom Bottiglieri
29-12-2005, 01:21
negative one bots tangling with pasta :ahh:
Silly Adam!

You can't have negative robots!



...Or can you...

:ahh:

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 01:45
whoa...that's almost zen-like...

Justin Montois
29-12-2005, 02:27
I bet after reading these over the years, Dave is never disappointed with the way his clues are dissected. It really is amazing to me how people will comb the internet fore the Montana State Flag and decipher whats on it in an attempt to figure out the game. i think this clue is a great way to get people excited about the upcoming season. Its like The Budweiser Shootout at Daytona is for NASCAR or the Draft is for the NFL. It sure is getting people on here excited.
Anyway, the CLUE!

-Doubt Pool Noodles(Too Obvious)
Same with Five Bots, too obvious. Granted the GDC knew that a simple search for the baseball players last year would reveal Triple play and you could say that that was too obvious so who knows.
Montana, Could be Joe Montana but I think that if they wanted to say something about football, they would have said it differently. I think there will be an uneven field again this year, even if nothing in the clue supports it, people like seeing robots have to go up stairs and ramps.
You have to think easy to reset, easy to clean, easy to get, that will help you out the most. If only Dave would tell us if someone hit the nail right on the -- > :]

Salik Syed
29-12-2005, 03:17
i think we were on to something with the backgammon link..

perhaps a platform in the center with room for only 5 of 6 robots?

i'm going to wait till kick off lol...

sanddrag
29-12-2005, 05:19
perhaps a platform in the center with room for only 5 of 6 robots?
Maybe something like the game musical chairs, where there are enough for everyone except one?

Arkorobotics
29-12-2005, 12:46
I think I will stick with a slippery surface due to http://www.ifirobotics.com/robot-traction-wheels.shtml.... I don't know about the clues though

pyroslev
29-12-2005, 12:52
I had a rush of caffeine in me two nights ago and had thee dry erase boards filled with theories. Some were nutty but a few make sense. Camera, hill, etc.

I was typing up an ad to sell a book i didn't need anymore. Look at the clue from a grammar teacher's perspective. Rearranging some of the words and their meanings made a lot of sense.

arbershametaj
29-12-2005, 13:11
I think that the surface of the hill or raised part of the field will be very slippery

4 the rest of the clues I have no clue except that the cam is back. Yeah people are going to love this .
well good luck 2 everyone and I hope this year is fun and we Win again

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 13:22
at this point, after so much speculation, most of the ideas have been exhausted...i'm inlclined to just wait the 8 days. of course, someone might come up with another brilliant idea, and blow the whole thing wide open..who knows

Elgin Clock
29-12-2005, 14:30
of course, someone might come up with another brilliant idea, and blow the whole thing wide open..who knows

I'm ready to add another dimension into the mix.

Montana not only rhymes with banana (referring to the 2007 game hint picture again) but also bananas are grown in Montana.
edit:not as widely as I thought they were, more hobbyist than mass production.

Also, in the state of Montana there is a abnormally warm area in the state known as the Banana Belt (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=banana%20belt).
edit: relatively warm, again not warm enough to grow bananas for mass production.

The Bitterroot valley is referred to as the "Banana Belt" of Montana due to the frequent mild winters. The valley’s extremely mild "banana belt" climate is attributable to the mountain ranges that bound and protect it. They include the Highland, McCartney, Green Horn, Gravely, Tobacco Root, and Ruby Mountains. (http://www.vigilanteland.com/rubyvalley1.htm)


What do I see referring back to that 3rd line of the clue?

"Montana's green" Horn Mountain.

But, as I stated before, the word green, or more appropriately greenhorn, means

An inexperienced or immature person, especially one who is easily deceived.
A newcomer, especially one who is unfamiliar with the ways of a place or group.
Other references to the Greenhorn Mountain Range include the Heights, or highest points, in the case being Sheep Mountain (9697 ft) , Baldy Mountain (9621 ft), and Horse Hill (7894 ft) All located in Madison County, MT.
http://nris.mt.gov/gis/requests/tallpeaks.html

Does the Madison County reference mean the game will have a bridge of some kind in it?

I'm done for a while.

Have fun analyzing.

edit: received some info from a fellow CD cruiser who is a Horticulturist by Degree telling me of some discrepancies.
Fixed them.

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 14:58
I'm ready to add another dimension into the mix.



must you always prove me wrong Elgin? :p

I love the "Montanta's Green" Horn Mountain part..that's REALLY interesting...i'm wondering how much stuff we're finding in here that wasn't intended by the GDC, but ends up being relevant somehow anyways...

Arkorobotics
29-12-2005, 14:58
Banana Belt .. i bet that is the games name

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 15:00
Banana Belt .. i bet that is the games name

hmm reminds me of "Maize Craze"....i hope we're not driving through a banana plantation...

CyberWolf_22
29-12-2005, 15:16
My family, some team members and I have been thinking about this hint for some time and one of the things my mother actually came up with was that maybe since the game piece has to be obsessed with something maybe it is animate like a house-bot type thing that FIRST would build and that is why it is five bots. 2 v 2 v 1 autonomous bot game piece.

Considering the thing about greenhorn the new robot would be a new comer to FIRST since it has never happened before.

EricH
29-12-2005, 15:26
My family, some team members and I have been thinking about this hint for some time and one of the things my mother actually came up with was that maybe since the game piece has to be obsessed with something maybe it is animate like a house-bot type thing that FIRST would build and that is why it is five bots. 2 v 2 v 1 autonomous bot game piece.

Considering the thing about greenhorn the new robot would be a new comer to FIRST since it has never happened before.
Read the thread. This is old news. There were even pictures of a "house bot" or placebo. It has happened multiple times in the past. I highly doubt that we will have one, particularly since the original purpose is no longer valid.

Elgin Clock
29-12-2005, 15:47
Ughhh.. I hope someone is taking all this in cause I just can't step away from this riddle.

It's like the season, FIRST seems to take over my life.

Oh well, it's better than other things taking over my life.

Anyways....

Even more info for everyone to analyze.

In the game Texas Hold-Em Poker, the following nicknames are pretty interesting.

Holding a 9 & 2 = "Montana Banana" or "Twiggy" or "Golf Bag"
Holding a 9 & 4 = "Joe Montana Banana" or "San Fransisco"
http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/hand_nicknames.php


BTW.. 92's Game = Maize Craze (http://www.firstwiki.org/Maize_Craze)
& then 94's Game = Tower Power (http://www.firstwiki.org/Tower_Power)

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 16:01
Holding a 9 & 2 = "Montana Banana" or "Twiggy" or "Golf Bag"
Holding a 9 & 4 = "Joe Montana Banana" or "San Fransisco"
http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/hand_nicknames.php


Ok, if that's a coincidence...i can't even describe how whack that would be

Maybe all the GDC people each come up with a game, and then play Hold 'Em to decide which game we play?

tfedullo
29-12-2005, 16:28
I'm sorry to burst your bubbles, but i think the banana may just be a reference to Dave's production company, as seen in the 2005 triple play animation, of coarse it could be both

Arkorobotics
29-12-2005, 16:50
I love this idea of cards, it would makes sense, but no, Banana on the 07 hint, and montana may work but no.. hmmm.. but I still think we haven't hit it. There is something that is so obvious but we haven't figured it out yet.

teamtestbot
29-12-2005, 16:53
I love the people who came up with this hint. It seems that every part can be tied to every other part through at least one interpretation. Absolutely genius.

Warren Boudreau
29-12-2005, 17:04
I don't know is this has been noted yet. There are so many postings on this thread.

John Pasta is a computer scientist who is known in the physics community in relation with his contributions to chaos theory. His name appears in the Fermi-Pasta-Ulam problem. To celebrate Pasta, many chaotic graphs are also called spaghetti graphs.

Elgin Clock
29-12-2005, 17:41
I don't know is this has been noted yet. There are so many postings on this thread.

John Pasta is a computer scientist who is known in the physics community in relation with his contributions to chaos theory. His name appears in the Fermi-Pasta-Ulam problem. To celebrate Pasta, many chaotic graphs are also called spaghetti graphs.

Awesome find. If this is the same John Pasta I am thinking of, he was a professor at a college/university who gives out awards in his honor which a possible fellow NASA Engineer that Lavery may know received.

More proof the world is smaller than we would like to think.

Search for NASA + Pasta (or John Pasta) and I'm sure you will be able to find the connection.

I saw it a few days back but lost it.

And I think I'm monopolizing this thread, so I'll back off for a while.


Oh, and I did know about the havabanana/2005 (& 2004's) animation splash screen, but everything is worth a second look when trying to solve problems, or riddles in this case.

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 17:46
I love the people who came up with this hint. It seems that every part can be tied to every other part through at least one interpretation. Absolutely genius.

they probably finish designing the game in mid-august and spend the rest of the time comming up with the hint...

Vaillancourt88
29-12-2005, 18:48
Okay, who's willing to admit they treat their robot as a pet? :D

Nonsense!! I don't treat my pet that well!!

Vaillancourt88
29-12-2005, 19:14
I like the Ideas about the CMU cam and the fun noodles. However, can't the cam recognize other colors than green? seems like they would make visual targets a different color this year....

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 19:16
I like the Ideas about the CMU cam and the fun noodles. However, can't the cam recognize other colors than green? seems like they would make visual targets a different color this year....

yes, but green is by far the easiest color for it to see (That's why the chose it last year) Also, FIRST wouldn't choose red or blue for obvious reasons...

Eldarion
29-12-2005, 19:43
yes, but green is by far the easiest color for it to see (That's why the chose it last year) Also, FIRST wouldn't choose red or blue for obvious reasons...

But FIRST DID choose red and blue last year for the auto-loading stations!

Granted, there was no way the camera could see blue... :rolleyes:

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 19:49
yes, but they didn't choose the loading station colors with the intention of having the cameras see it, though some teams may have attempted that...

mom1155
29-12-2005, 20:03
There is an Oracle printing utility called PASTA which is needed for double byte character sets and other special print functions. Does anyone see a potential application to the game?

Ryan Foley
29-12-2005, 20:05
here's something no one picked up on yet.

" 'bots" is a shorter version of the word "robots"

maybe they took my idea (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=383558&postcount=7) seriously.......

Robot Size and Weight:
People are getting used to the current size restrictions. Why not be evil and go back to one of the older size resitrictions? Perhaps only 4ft tall robots, or something like that. It would certainly even out the playing field a bit, since few teams would have experience with smaller robots. Besides, smaller robots means you could put more robots on the field at a time (or just make 3v3 a little less crowded). Plus, smaller robots are easier to transport and move around.

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 20:14
that would be pretty neat acutally...it'd definitely level the playing field somewhat

skimoose
29-12-2005, 21:20
Does this have anything to do with the 'bots (http://web.mit.edu/tarvizo/Public/sa-shover-bots.gif) clue? :cool:

Found it on an MIT site. Hmmm, five steps in the image too. Are we back to stairs? Shover bots, is that a play on shovel? If not, angry shover bots must tangle.

Eldarion
29-12-2005, 21:21
yes, but they didn't choose the loading station colors with the intention of having the cameras see it, though some teams may have attempted that...

Well, maybe they changed their mind after they found out it didn't work. :ahh:

In the kickoff video, when they were introducing the vision system, they said that teams could use the camera to go after the vision tetras, the little yellow triangles, and the auto-loading zones. Also, the CMUCam utility did have red and blue calibration buttons, and they did specidy the exact paint they were using on the auto-loaders. When I was down in St. Louis, I helped to calibrate the cameras, and they had me get numbers for the red and blue zones too.

But, like I said, I think (hope!) they have learned at this point that the blue (and possibly red and yellow) doesn't work :D

Nuttyman54
29-12-2005, 21:34
But, like I said, I think (hope!) they have learned at this point that the blue (and possibly red and yellow) doesn't work :D

dunno about red, but yellow is pretty finnicky. We could recognize the yellow pads ONLY when we were playing for the Red Alliance. The amount that the color values changed for the different sides affected it that much. Green worked fine all the time (thank goodness)

Ryan Foley
29-12-2005, 21:50
Hey guys, not to be rude, but could we stay a bit more on topic?

Not that the CMU cam isn't cool, but there are other threads for discussing it, besides, last years hint thread had 586 replies, we have a ways to go, and more decoding to do in order to fill up the remaining 163 posts!


Thanks

Doug G
29-12-2005, 22:19
Hey guys, could we stay a bit more on topic?

Not that the CMU cam isn't cool, but there are other threads for discussing it, besides, last years hint thread had 586 replies, we have a ways to go, and more decoding to do in order to fill up the remaining 163 posts!


Thanks

Shall we resort to guess how many posts there'll be in this thread? I say we hit ~701 posts. Still more than a week to go....

Oh yea, the topic at hand... Sorry...

Rickertsen2
29-12-2005, 22:37
I think that the camera target will be elevated

EddieMcD
29-12-2005, 23:31
Silly Adam!

You can't have negative robots!



...Or can you...

:ahh:No, but you can have imaginary robots. :pThere's been some talk about how "prime" is a common way to denote a derivative. Well, if we go back to our introductory calculus course, we remember that the derivative of a constant function is precisely equal to zero. 5 is a constant.

Hence,

5' = 0

Therefore,

five' bots tangling with pasta
= zero bots tangling with pasta

... Just something to think aboutWhich means that entire line could literally be a red herring... It wouldn't suprise me to see Dave do that either.

Mike Schroeder
29-12-2005, 23:48
Ryan has a point i remember Dave telling me somthing at capitol clash, i wont say what, but its rather interesting now that i look at the hint...

buss
30-12-2005, 00:36
Oh please do say! Its not like he told you something in confidence... :P

Rickertsen2
30-12-2005, 01:00
I don't know if this is any hint to the game, but when i took the RC apart, i noticed some room for expansion. On the PCB, there is space for 3 more LEDs on the RC. I have not yet taken apart an OI. There is also a space for a 13 pin header on the PCB. I need to investigate where the traces are connected.

Also, as mentioned before the team color LEDs have the capability to be green. Right now this is reserved for an error status, but all it would take is a firmware update to make this usable as a team color. By turning multiple colors on at one time or varying their brightness through pwm it might be possible to acheive a full spectrum of team colors.

Nuttyman54
30-12-2005, 01:40
Also, as mentioned before the team color LEDs have the capability to be green. Right now this is reserved for an error status, but all it would take is a firmware update to make this usable as a team color. By turning multiple colors on at one time or varying their brightness through pwm it might be possible to acheive a full spectrum of team colors.

For ease of refereeing and spectating, they'd probably stick with just individual LED colors (no mix-and-match, and no brightness variation). However, adding in more colors isn't that big of a deal. If they can flash green, who says they couldn't add yellow or something else

Zach Purser
30-12-2005, 03:15
Has anyone talked about the significance of the order of the clue parts? I think it's interesting that they listed the possible autonomous mode "seeing Montana's green heights" last. Could it be possible that the autonomous mode is at the end of the rounds this year? That would make for some interesting strategy. The robot would either have to autonomously determine where it was and adjust, or the driver would have to make sure the robot was at a know location in a known orientation at the end of the driver period. Now there's a scary thought for the programmers!

Eldarion
30-12-2005, 03:20
For ease of refereeing and spectating, they'd probably stick with just individual LED colors (no mix-and-match, and no brightness variation). However, adding in more colors isn't that big of a deal. If they can flash green, who says they couldn't add yellow or something else

You know, if they wanted to they could replace the team light modules with a module containing a tri-color LED or LEDs. That would be capable of 16 million colors!

Zach Purser
30-12-2005, 04:01
The word 'bots in the first line troubles me. The fact that it was shortened from robots either means that the number of syllables has some significance, or that the missing letters "ro" have some significance.

In the second line, if we assume the "shovel's show" is what the shovel on the Montana state flag points to, we find the letters "ORO", or more precisely the shovel points to "RO".

Now before anyone suggests "ro ro ro your bot", I looked up the acronym RORO and found this:

"Ro/Ro"

A shortening of the term, "Roll On/Roll Off." A method of ocean cargo service using a vessel with ramps which allows wheeled vehicles to be loaded and discharged without cranes.
So, could there be some sort of ferry that we have to use to achieve a goal, or might we have to ferry something (like another robot) to a goal?

Zach Purser
30-12-2005, 04:25
Thoughts on the number of syllables:
So the alternative explanation to my earlier post about the significance of " 'bots " is that the number of syllables are significant. So what could 7-10-8 translate to?
New robot dimensions this year?
70cm x 100cm x 80cm = 28.58in x 39.37in x 31.5in
(last years dimensions 28in x 60in x 38in)
One dimension is pretty close, but the other two are on the small side.

Could they be dimensions of something on the field? Goal heights?

Could they be a breakdown of the times for autonomous and driver modes or some other event that is time dependent?

Possibly a breakdown of scoring? 70 pts for pasta, 100 for the shovel's show, and 80 for Montana's green heights?

My best guess would be goal heights, but it would be neat if the robot dimensions would change. It would be a lot easier to take a 40 inch tall robot to a fundraiser than the standard 5 foot tall one.

sanddrag
30-12-2005, 04:36
Look at one of Dave's recent posts here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=425462&postcount=13) in this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41054).

The 11th track of that album is called "Spaghetti (Twist and Twirl)" (the tangling with pasta in the clue) and the 12th track is called "Home" (perhaps returning to starting position at autonomously at the end of the match.)

I'm definitely betting on auto mode at the end, and spaghetti type objects will definitelty be the "pasta."

Here's the rest of the tracks on that album link (http://www.brave.com/bo/discography/allwoundup.htm)

Elgin Clock
30-12-2005, 07:47
The word 'bots in the first line troubles me. The fact that it was shortened from robots either means that the number of syllables has some significance, or that the missing letters "ro" have some significance.

In the second line, if we assume the "shovel's show" is what the shovel on the Montana state flag points to, we find the letters "ORO", or more precisely the shovel points to "RO".


What about the alternate phonetic sound of the word Rho?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rho

It has many scientific uses in the fields of physics, electonics, and other areas.

Has anyone talked about the significance of the order of the clue parts? I think it's interesting that they listed the possible autonomous mode "seeing Montana's green heights" last.

What I got from the "So you design the 2006 game thread", was that a lot of folks wanted something for a big finish at the end of the match.

Last year wasn't that much at the end, just a home zone return, unless you were fighting over the height of a stack, or putting one on a stack yourself in the last second (fun times at BE).

2001= Last second working together for Ramp position
2002=Last second end zone dash with tethers
2003= Last second Fighting for Ramp position
2004=Last second hangs on the bar
2005=Last second dashes to the End zone, but not as exciting as 2002 with the exclusion of tethers.

I think the order of Montana's green heights may mean a big finish with a field structure green and high off the ground.

Bill Moore
30-12-2005, 08:35
What about the alternate phonetic sound of the word Rho?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rho

It has many scientific uses in the fields of physics, electonics, and other areas.



What I got from the "So you design the 2006 game thread", was that a lot of folks wanted something for a big finish at the end of the match.

Last year wasn't that much at the end, just a home zone return, unless you were fighting over the height of a stack, or putting one on a stack yourself in the last second (fun times at BE).

2001= Last second working together for Ramp position
2002=Last second end zone dash with tethers
2003= Last second Fighting for Ramp position
2004=Last second hangs on the bar
2005=Last second dashes to the End zone, but not as exciting as 2002 with the exclusion of tethers.

I think the order of Montana's green heights may mean a big finish with a field structure green and high off the ground.
What would be really wicked of the game development committee, would be to have a field element that doesn't appear until an autonomous period at the end. Think of the hanging bar in 2003. What if the pipe were hinged. During player control of the robot, the bar would be straight upward, but once the human period is over, the bar hinges downward and connects with the other upright. No robot could "hang" prior to autonomous in this scenario. FIRST could even pause the robots while the field element is moving into place.
Taking off on Elgin's idea, what if the "End Zone" were undefined until the end of the game? At that point a vision surface is revealed for the robots to "Go Home" (defined as "Any part of your robot must be touching within an arc around the vision plate"). The robot would have to locate the vision plate, and then either drive toward it or release a thether toward it to score. It would be like 2002, except that instead of humans aligning and releasing the tethers, it would be the robot doing those tasks. 2002 had some very exciting finishes, as audiences watched the robot tethers move toward the end zones -- some made it, and some were heartbreakingly just short.

6 foot 8
30-12-2005, 11:21
http://www.montanagreenpower.com/

Having to do with Solar, renewable energy, look at the picture, green mountains???? IDK, first thing came to mind just looked at the clue today.

6 foot 8
30-12-2005, 11:24
In response to Elgin thoughts, The state motto of montana where the shovel is pointing is "Oro y plata"- which stands for gold and silver, lemme know if you get anything from this.

Rob
30-12-2005, 11:38
Also, as mentioned before the team color LEDs have the capability to be green.

At the BAE Regional one of our LED's malfunctioned and showed solid green.

http://www.joemenassa.com/Images/ROBOTICS2005/NHDay1/pages/EPV0614.htm

It was just a bright as the Blue or Red colors that were used to designate color for the matches.

The parts FIRST used last year certainly are capable of including a green team with minimal additional effort.

Rob

663.keith
30-12-2005, 12:02
I was thinking of the clue late last night, and something came to me. A while back there was a hint given by dave
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=378660&postcount=7
about "hovercrafts and the english channel". Could it be possible that the hovercraft metioned in this hint could refer to the placebo bots mentioned earlier in this thread?

this going back to placebo could also be a referece to the cryptic clue given by dave "you already have it" (in reference to the clue)

Nuttyman54
30-12-2005, 12:40
You know, if they wanted to they could replace the team light modules with a module containing a tri-color LED or LEDs. That would be capable of 16 million colors!

yeah, but do you REALLY want to be the ref trying to differentiate between the robot flashing 0,255,255 and 0,250,255?

they could make the robots be pixels!!! the autonomous mode would be to find the other robots by their LED's and position themselves in a predetermined pattern....or not

Rickertsen2
30-12-2005, 14:28
yeah, but do you REALLY want to be the ref trying to differentiate between the robot flashing 0,255,255 and 0,250,255?

they could make the robots be pixels!!! the autonomous mode would be to find the other robots by their LED's and position themselves in a predetermined pattern....or not
i don't think they would choose differences that subtle. If they went with full color, we would see colors like yellow and orange. The only reason they would ever need to mix colors in the rirst place would be if there were more than 3 aliances.

Vaillancourt88
30-12-2005, 15:46
What about the alternate phonetic sound of the word Rho?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rho

It has many scientific uses in the fields of physics, electonics, and other areas.



(from wikipedia link) 2. The lower-case letter ρ is used as the symbol for the radius in a polar coordinate system in mathematics.

A ROUND field??!?

Gundamx92000
30-12-2005, 16:13
w00t! i have finally made my way through 30 pages of complex thoughts! alright heres what i got. Nothing super new to wow your brains, but perhaps some re-enforcement. I agree that there will probably be a multi sided ramp, maybe 2 sided like "stack attack" with a flat on top, or maybe a pentagon ramp. Remember how in 2003 the ramp surface was a wire grate? well maybe thats not too much of a tangle, but what if the ramp surface was like a cargo net? that would be a challenge, provide a bit of a tangle, and be pretty cool. Also with the idea of a placebo bot. i doubt it will happen again due to the maintenance and other cost associated as mentioned before.

If it were to a critical game element my thought is that it would have to be fairly simple in design, and be autonomously controlled. For if the robot was controlled by people then the activity of the robot would not be the same for each team in a round, or regional. That provides the problem of that robot maybe being biased, or giving an unfair advantage to some, intentionally or not. Also that means that that game piece would be different in every regional unless Dave intends to use a vast satellite network so that he can control every robot in every regional at every match! hes got alot of time on his hands, but really. So that leads me to believe that if a placebo were to occur, it would have to be autonomous, and the code would have to be given to the teams so that they could built it into their field. overall, i just doubt that it will occur.

as for a third alliance? well green is the perfect color for it. after all, go ahead and look at your monitors color settings. the 3 colors it uses to make all the others are Red Green and Blue. thus there is no possible way you could mistake one for the other.and hey, add them all together and they make white, a FIRST color. BUT i also doubt that there will be 3 teams for the reasons of ganging up on other teams, and for the unmentioned reason :the Field layout. Let's assume that we use the standard carpet playing Field we did last year. There was red on one side, and blue on the other. Where would the third team go? where would they set up controls and put their human player? on the side? that'd be unfair because they could then get a better view of the field. Stick them next to another teams station? then you are just asking for teams to gang up. so really? where would their control station be? Seriously, i place my bet on a 3v3 game.

Also, the thought of water bounced around. No i don't think there will be an aqueous challenge, but lets not look at water for its face value, lets look deeper into water, as we did with the baton. This may be a little whack, but i thought of it last night. Those of you who know your chemistry know that molecular bonds have specific formations, and that when bonded they for specific angles between the atoms. Water has a bent structure and its bond angle is approximately 104.5 degrees? (correct me on that I'm doing it off memory.) well, while that is rather steep, perhaps that could be the angle of the ramp? or the angle of another Field element?

oo this just came to mind. its a bit far fetched but here goes. On Dave's animation picture, he says its a 2007 clue, yes i know, but maybe theres a connection. There are 2 fish approaching a robot with a banana. What if the 2 fish represent 2 alliances and the robot represents .. as much as i hate to say, some sort of placebo bot. maybe its a 2003 style Field and there is only room on each side of the ramp for 2 bots on each side, plus the one in the middle =5 robots. what that placebo robot may do? i don't know really.

Alright, time to get some food sunlight and fresh air! enjoy your vacation and maybe I'll see you at kickoff!

Ian Curtis
30-12-2005, 17:23
Well at first I was daunted by reading the mass of replies this thread has accrued while I was away, but after reading them and thinking about last years clues, I figured I'd respond yet again.


THE NAME OF THE GAME
Last year's game "Triple Play" was what the baseball players in the clue accomplished. What has Joe Montana accomplished? Comebacks. What is all this ramp or platuea train of thought bringing about? King of the Hill. FIRST game names traditionally flow, therefore I wouldn't be surprised if the name of this year's game was "Comeback King" or something like that.

THE AUTONOMOUS TASK
I envision that the end of the game will involve reaching someplace autonomously with a major bonus. If your alliance can accomplish this task (in my mind this is scaling a box with straight edges that is rather tall, say 3 feet) the points accrued switch if you are the losing alliance. If your alliance is getting destroyed 1 to 100, but you get to the top of the box, the score becomes 100 to 1 in your favor. The switching would only occur if the losing alliance had more robots on the top of the platform (or if they want to enforce robot variety, make the platform small enough that only one robot can be on the top, this would also make staying on top it more difficult).

EDIT:
Does it scare anyone else that this thread has been viewed over 19,000 times... in a week! :ahh:

amos229
30-12-2005, 20:55
while i am in total favor of king of the hill, and some type of ramp, i dont see alot of points being awarded for the most robots ontop of a ramp, after last years no tipping rule, plus thats alot of crashing and bashing robots, just an opinion.

Andrew Blair
30-12-2005, 21:03
while i am in total favor of king of the hill, and some type of ramp, i dont see alot of points being awarded for the most robots ontop of a ramp, after last years no tipping rule, plus thats alot of crashing and bashing robots, just an opinion.


However, last year's field was completely flat. Therefore, from an initial point of view when the rules were being made, it should be relatively hard to flip a team on flat ground, so if you do flip someone, it was either extenuated circumstances, or a malicious attempt. Unfortunately, FIRST must have forgot about the "9 pound tetras, ten feet overhead" part of the game...

VulcanXP
30-12-2005, 21:24
Admittedly, I haven't made it through all 30 pages of this thread, but it seems to me that we are forgetting what seems to be FIRST's recent unwritten rule: KISS. FIRST is trying to make the games fairly simple so that people who are unfamiliar with the game and FIRST can walk into an event and walk out understanding the game and somewhat understand FIRST. Also, something to keep in mind is that in this past year, FIRST spent a lot of money on the new fields, and I seriously doubt that they will be throwing them out for a round, sandy, snowy or water filled field. Here are my thoughts:

The "five 'bots tangling with pasta" does not mean that there will be only five robots on the field, but instead five robots that are "tangling with pasta", while a sixth robot is not tangling with pasta, and that the game remains 3v3. I think that Gundamx may have hit a sweet spot with his idea of a pentagonal topped structure. Perhaps each of the five sides would consist of ladder like ramps to get to the pentagonal top, which only has space for one robot. So while one robot sits on the top and attempts to maintain its hold there, the other five 'bots tangle with the pasta (ladders, or maybe even rope bridges). Now, following this, it would obviously be advantageous to reach the top of the ramp as early as possible, i.e. Autonomous. If this ramp is the "green heights", then it must be seen. This makes me think that the entire ramp is green, and it is randomly placed around the field at the beginning of the match, much like the vision tetras last year. So, if you are to gain the advantage by reaching the top in autonomous you have to be able to "see" where the ramp is. FIRST is always trying to get teams to use sensors, and yet it never seems to be successful. Perhaps something of this nature could change all that.

amos229
30-12-2005, 23:52
while i am still all for the ramp and king of the hill idea, with 3'x3' robots weighing 130 lbs i am not seeing a movable ramp, plus if u put that much focus into taking the ramp in autonomous mode what happens the rest of the match, the movable autonomous found ramp sounds kinda boring but these r just thoughts

Nuttyman54
31-12-2005, 00:06
two ideas:

1) making it onto the ramp during auto secures your alliance points, and then the robot is free to move about and score during the rest of the match, without having to worry about climbing back on at the end

2) the autonomous is at the end, and making it onto the ramp by the end of the match secures MAJOR points

Petey
31-12-2005, 01:55
So, could there be some sort of ferry that we have to use to achieve a goal, or might we have to ferry something (like another robot) to a goal?

No!

It said a ramp (the thing you quoted).

This is just more evidence towards a central hill.

By the way...

I just got back from a TSO concert (go see them) with some FIRST friends. Since the show was at the Verizon Wireless Arena in Manchester--home of the BAE Regional--we got to talking about FIRST. I mentioned the theory about the elimination of the alliances, but both my friends maintained that notable FIRST sponsors (including 3M and Johnson & Johnson) had threatened to pull funding if FIRST did that.

Can anyone confirm/deny this?

--Petey

Nuttyman54
31-12-2005, 02:05
I mentioned the theory about the elimination of the alliances, but both my friends maintained that notable FIRST sponsors (including 3M and Johnson & Johnson) had threatened to pull funding if FIRST did that.

Can anyone confirm/deny this?

--Petey

sorry i can't, but that's an interesting concept...i didn't realize how important alliances were to the sponsors. Probably has to do something about the real world...

Arkorobotics
31-12-2005, 02:06
not to be mean, but after 31 pages.. do we have any solid ideas? even simple ones?

Cory
31-12-2005, 02:16
not to be mean, but after 31 pages.. do we have any solid ideas? even simple ones?

5'=0 robots tangling with pasta.

If I were going to place money on anything "discovered" from this thread, that's the only thing I would even consider.

Nuttyman54
31-12-2005, 02:19
i still stand by my recap (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424606&postcount=161) from a *few* pages ago.

Henry_Mareck
31-12-2005, 02:23
I think we have discovered yet again that they knew what they were doing when the came up with the hint.
apart from that, im thinking an uneven field is likley.
and there will be something green on the field somewhere.

edit- im with nuttyman on that recap

Chris Sturrock
31-12-2005, 02:39
ok... so i dont know if these have already been said or not.. because i dont really fell like reading all these.

My idea:
it will be 2vs2 with another robot controlled by a staff member or something... like in battle bots...

Tangled with pasta = maybe there will be some rope or netting involved? i know thats dangerous, so i kinda doubt it, but it jumps out at me.

Scoring object obsessed witha shovels show = maybe a small bag of sand? although the first thing i thought of was a pool noodle. but everyone thought of that.

it probably wont be a flat field... im asuming a platform or 2.

see the green... maybe there is something on the platform that you have to use the CMU cam in autonomous to get on to the top of the platform to reach?

Gundamx92000
31-12-2005, 03:15
We mentioned before a pentagonal ramp. Well I just woke up in the middle of the night and thought of this... if there is a pentagon shaped ramp, the field would not be entirely symetric. that may or may not matter but the fields usually had strong symetry to them. both on the red or blue side, and on the left and right. i was also considering the size of a robust pentagon ramp and what kind of effect it may have on cramping the field. it could be done, but im not sure. After all the 2003 ramp took up a large portion of the feild then and that was only 2 sides! think of how large a 5 sided ramp would be? yes the field is larger, but is it THAT much larger? i dunno... anyone elses thoughts?

VulcanXP
31-12-2005, 10:07
That's a good point, Gundamx. The pentagon ramp does seem pretty unlikely. But I am still convinced that the portion of the clue referring to five 'bots does not mean only five 'bots. I think the game will remain 3vs3, especially considering how much FIRST is growing, they won't go back to 2vs2 because 3vs3 allows regionals and the championship to run much faster since 6 robots get through a match at one time instead of 4. I think what the "five 'bots tangling with pasta" refers to is that one robot has some sort of advantage, is doing something, or is somewhere that the other five bots are trying to take away, do instead, or get to. At first I thought a ramp, but it could really be anything, as long as only one bot can do it at one time. I don't think any of the 2vs3, 2.5vs2.5 or 2vs2vs1 ideas are very likely to occur. But, as always, just an opinion.

meaubry
31-12-2005, 10:09
Just a few thoughts -
five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

FIRST realizes that throughput is important and in order to get each team as many matches as possible, last year they introduced 6 bots as a way of achieving it. Expect 6 bots to be playing each match. I expect there will be 3 teams of 2, instead of 2 teams of 3.
5 bots tangling mean that there is most likely 6 bots playing, but only room
for 5 bots to score or do some task.
This is simply good game design - always leave one less forcing an unbalanced situation for decision making. Do we do this first and hope there will still be room for us over there doing that later???

"Tangling" refers to fighting over or with
"Pasta" refers to either the game objects or a game piece - game objects could refer to things that the bots could get entangled with while trying to move around or into certain playing field areas. I beileve they will be an impediment located in front of the scoring area - PVC pipes or hoses hanging down acting as an impediment for climbing or hanging or placing or throwing objects??

The game pieces are obsessed with being placed in a hole (this is
the shovel's show). Normally a hole would be difficult to create - if it were in the floor, but this year the holes (scoring area) is raised above the floor on a plateau.

Montana's green heights has dual meaning.
Montana is refering to a football analogy (end zone) as well as a derivation
of the word (Mountain)
The Mountain reference is describing one end of the field where a 4 foot
high ramp is found, with a 3 foot flat plateau on top. The green refers to
a border around 3 holes into which the footballs must be placed - the reason for the border is to allow robots to find the holes while in autonomous.

Joe Montana (the quarterback) - his goal was to cross the endzone to score
points - and he was extremely good at doing this in the final seconds of the
game.
Bots will be awarded scoring points if they cross the end zone at the end of
the game. The end zone is on one end of the field - opposite
from the mountain (ramp end)

So - in summary here is what I see -
6 robots trying to climb up to the top of a 4 ft ramp at one end of the
field, to a small plateau with room only for 5 bots - attempting to place
footballs into designed holes to score points.
I see autonomous at the end of the game - possibly this is the way to score bonus points at the end of the game, by crossing the endzone.
I see the camera being used to locate the scoring holes.

I see footballs being the game piece that the humans interact with and the impediment (hanging wall of pvc pipes or hoses) as way to discourage the humans from trying to throw the footballs into the holes directly (unless the impediment is moved out of the way)

Just some fun ideas to ponder - remember this though
The hint never reveals everything - but it does provide us all with entertainment for a couple weeks before we all see how far off our guesses were and if we aren't close - alot of good ideas for future is harvested.

b-rant
31-12-2005, 11:06
hmmm........

spaghetti code?

High Wire Gallery Shovel Show?

Buffaloberry (Shepherdia argentea)?
8-12 feet, needs full sun= cams need good lighting

well it took a lot of reserch and i didn't feel like typing all the information i found, but you might want to google the things that I've been pondering that might have to do with the game....


by the way i haven't looked over all the posts but i'm sure some of these were mentioned

Petey
31-12-2005, 11:30
not to be mean, but after 31 pages.. do we have any solid ideas? even simple ones?

Yes (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424626&postcount=179) we have (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=424636&highlight=Petey#post424636).


well it took a lot of reserch and i didn't feel like typing all the information i found, but you might want to google the things that I've been pondering that might have to do with the game....


by the way i haven't looked over all the posts but i'm sure some of these were mentioned

http://forumimages.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-bang.gif

I know it's a lot of threads to read through people, but please, be constructive, read through it, and either add your own new ideas or clarify ideas already posted. If you repost things already posted by other people, all you're doing is adding posts and making the thread larger so more people will use the page count to excuse their doubleposting.

Man, am I looking forward to kickoff.

--Petey

Nuttyman54
31-12-2005, 12:46
hmmm........

spaghetti code?

High Wire Gallery Shovel Show?

Buffaloberry (Shepherdia argentea)?
8-12 feet, needs full sun= cams need good lighting

well it took a lot of reserch and i didn't feel like typing all the information i found, but you might want to google the things that I've been pondering that might have to do with the game....


by the way i haven't looked over all the posts but i'm sure some of these were mentioned

suprisingly, i think only the High Wire Gallery was mention earlier...the rest are entirely new connections. good work!

Alex Burman
31-12-2005, 13:02
i stand by my idea if a hill (possibly 10 feet high) with 3 teams of 2 and the robots will be useing foot balls

funstuff
31-12-2005, 14:11
We mentioned before a pentagonal ramp. Well I just woke up in the middle of the night and thought of this... if there is a pentagon shaped ramp, the field would not be entirely symetric. that may or may not matter but the fields usually had strong symetry to them. both on the red or blue side, and on the left and right. i was also considering the size of a robust pentagon ramp and what kind of effect it may have on cramping the field. it could be done, but im not sure. After all the 2003 ramp took up a large portion of the feild then and that was only 2 sides! think of how large a 5 sided ramp would be? yes the field is larger, but is it THAT much larger? i dunno... anyone elses thoughts?

Good point. But if the ramp has FOUR sides and ONE flat top (like a plateau), doesn't that mean that there is room for FIVE robots? This would work better with the symmetry of the field. The top spot would of course be worth the most points. The ramp would take up a lot of room on the field, no matter what it's shape is. Think like these trucated pyramids, except less steep:
http://www.korthalsaltes.com/foto/square_truncated_pyramid.jpg
http://www.ht-audio.com/images/Trap1.jpg

Nuttyman54
31-12-2005, 14:19
that makes a lot of sense...i'm assuming that it wouldn't be mobile, b/c that'd be REALLY hard to climb on if it was... and dangerous too.

Ian Curtis
31-12-2005, 14:43
that makes a lot of sense...i'm assuming that it wouldn't be mobile, b/c that'd be REALLY hard to climb on if it was... and dangerous too.

Actually, that brings up a really good point. Assume that while "five 'bots are tangling with pasta" there is a truncated pyramid or similarly shaped object on wheels like the mobile goals of '04, or the puck of '98? (in that year robots physically got on top of the puck and were awarded points for it). There would be points for the robot atop of the rolling truncated pyramid (isn't that just a fun word to say?) at the end of the match. Probably in order for most bots to climb it they would need help of an alliance partner, but good robots could mount it themselves leaving 2 of their robots to tangle with pasta while they fended for themselves.

And could you imagine getting on said object in Autonomous Mode?!?!?!?

Aidan F. Browne
31-12-2005, 14:57
[I only had time to read about half of the thread... so don't kill me if I'm repeating here...] :eek:


A few things discovered in 15 minutes worth of research, none of which I've seen here yet:

1) Couldn't help but Google the exact phrase "five 'bots"... and lookey here what it discovered: http://www.fileaholic.com/idgames/partial_conversions/code_red/coderd12.txt

Knowing the geekiness of the GDC (thats "geek" in the good sense)... I'm guessing there might have been a Quake player or two out there... Notice that "You begin in a level with entrances to three(for now) arenas". *3* !!!

2) Now to dictionary.com... "Tangle: To catch and hold in or as if in a net; entrap".... speaks for itself.

3) PASTA is an acronym in queuing theory; it stands for "Poisson Arrivals See Time Averages". A wildshot... but then again, could have something to do with the scoring system.

4) There is a meaning of "show" that I haven't seen mentioned... again thanks to dictionary.com... "Show: Third place at the finish, as in a horserace." I dunno.... there's that "3" again. Also, "obsessed" can mean "influenced or controlled" SO: Translate: "A game piece influenced or controlled with a shovel's third place finish." Yike's -- the value of a gamepiece might be different for the third place finisher?

I won't touch Montana's green heights for now.

Happy New Year!

Aidan

Jonathan Norris
31-12-2005, 15:08
I just thought of this, instead of having the ramps/platform in the middle, they may be at the ends of the field like a end zone in football. This just came to me when I was reading about Montana's heights/Joe Montana. I think it would be cool if they placed the ramps and goals at the ends like end zones, and have the robots start in the middle... Just a crazy idea.

Nuttyman54
31-12-2005, 15:08
4) There is a meaning of "show" that I haven't seen mentioned... again thanks to dictionary.com... "Show: Third place at the finish, as in a horserace." I dunno.... there's that "3" again. Also, "obsessed" can mean "influenced or controlled" SO: Translate: "A game piece influenced or controlled with a shovel's third place finish." Yike's -- the value of a gamepiece might be different for the third place finisher?

I won't touch Montana's green heights for now.

Happy New Year!

Aidan

that might've been mentioned before, but never connected like that....if we had a third place, that would imply three alliances...maybe that's how FIRST is combatting the "ganging up" problem that occurred last time there were three teams playing at ta time...

Elgin Clock
31-12-2005, 15:09
I just thought of this, instead of having the ramps/platform in the middle, they may be at the ends of the field like a end zone in football. This just came to me when I was reading about Montana's heights/Joe Montana. I think it would be cool if they placed the ramps and goals at the ends like end zones, and have the robots start in the middle... Just a crazy idea.

Similar to 1995's game:
http://www.firstwiki.org/Ramp_n%27_Roll

Collmandoman
31-12-2005, 15:09
the field will be cheap.. prob as cheap as last year..and as easy to create.. so I wouldn't count on a 10ft hill

also if it's 5 bots... it won't be 2v3 -- that would take way TOO much planning and could be a catastrophe
5v0 is very possible -- alliances could have the opportunity to end a match early again - and if the avg time of a match is 1:40 or so.. it would make up for not having a 6th team on the field

Gundamx92000
31-12-2005, 15:19
What if it was a standard ramp like in 2003 with rope netting instead of wire grate? and then the top of the ramp could only hold five? remember how the ramp only fit so many in '03? its a little flooky, but maybe...

edthegeek
31-12-2005, 15:41
I just thought of this, instead of having the ramps/platform in the middle, they may be at the ends of the field like a end zone in football. This just came to me when I was reading about Montana's heights/Joe Montana. I think it would be cool if they placed the ramps and goals at the ends like end zones, and have the robots start in the middle... Just a crazy idea.
Another really crazy idea, but what if the truncated pyramids are at the end zones like Norris said. You begin on top of the pyramids and at the end autonomous period, you have to use the CMUcam to find your way back on top of the pyramid

Bill Moore
31-12-2005, 15:47
What if it was a standard ramp like in 2003 with rope netting instead of wire grate? and then the top of the ramp could only hold five? remember how the ramp only fit so many in '03? its a little flooky, but maybe...
The ramp/platform in 2003 could hold 4 robots, the number that played the game that year. It happened many times during Regionals and Championships.

Petey
31-12-2005, 16:05
Good point. But if the ramp has FOUR sides and ONE flat top (like a plateau), doesn't that mean that there is room for FIVE robots? This would work better with the symmetry of the field. The top spot would of course be worth the most points. The ramp would take up a lot of room on the field, no matter what it's shape is. Think like these trucated pyramids, except less steep:


Oh my god, this is a good find. This makes me think that it will be a 2x2 game with a FIRST-controlled defensive bot defending the top (where there will be a goal for the footballs).

Ramps will have to be scaled by robots during the end of the match--which will be autonomous--for extra points...and they must have started *off* the ramp before autonomous began.


--Petey

tfedullo
31-12-2005, 17:11
i don't know about an autonomous task at the end of the match, it would make the ref's job hard to make sure the task was not completed (or started) during operator controlled mode
though, it would be an interesting twist

Cory
31-12-2005, 17:37
Oh my god, this is a good find. This makes me think that it will be a 2x2 game with a FIRST-controlled defensive bot defending the top (where there will be a goal for the footballs).

Ramps will have to be scaled by robots during the end of the match--which will be autonomous--for extra points...and they must have started *off* the ramp before autonomous began.


--Petey

How would you introduce a house robot?

This would tick people off more than anything FIRST has ever done in the past. Unless it just sits there, or drives around with flashing lights all over it, far away from the action, there's no way to keep the robot from adversely or positively effecting the rest of the teams. Everyone would complain that xx alliance got more help from the house bot than yy alliance, and zz alliance got completely screwed, etc.

Plus, how on earth are teams supposed to build their own robot, PLUS a second robot, just to have a working field?

This isn't battlebots, where the entire goal is to destroy everything else on the field. There's no way there's a house bot.

Sam Lipscomb
31-12-2005, 18:06
Plus, how on earth are teams supposed to build their own robot, PLUS a second robot, just to have a working field?

That's true. There's no way there would be any housebots that do specific tasks, like defend, otherwise teams would need to build their own housebot in order to practice before competitions. Most teams only build pieces of the field, so it's doubtful FIRST would make us build another robot too.

Starke
31-12-2005, 18:31
i agree with this quote by edthegeek:


Another really crazy idea, but what if the truncated pyramids are at the end zones like Norris said. You begin on top of the pyramids and at the end autonomous period, you have to use the CMUcam to find your way back on top of the pyramid

this also reminds me of the vex field that looks as follows. of course there has something different in the middle. but there is an example of the ramped edge idea. hmm, instead of vex using FRC games, maybe it is the other way this year? anyone agree? my mind is spinning.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/pics/bin/113111318762.jpg

Francis-134
31-12-2005, 18:45
It would be an interesting idea, but I highly doubt that FIRST would use the same game in two competitions in the same year. But if it is, I've got about 4 different designs that would work:).

I think that auto mode at the end is feasible. If there were some sort of pause between the operator control and autonomous, it would be possible for the refs to discern where a robot is in respect to the two modes.

psquared89
31-12-2005, 18:46
It is a most cryptic clue, but I was wondering if they released the encrypted version of the game manual yet? I remember from kickoffs in the past they always gave out an encryption key at the end for anyone who was curious, have they released the new, encrypted manual yet? I couldn't find it anywhere on FIRST's homepage.

On a side note: for those who enjoy clues, hints, and other things such as these, you guys should check out "cryptic crosswords", they're really cool things and could be helpful. There are some examples of cryptics crosswords here (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~wgh/crosswordpuz.htm) and for those who become exceedingly frustrated, a cryptic crossword solver here (http://www.crosswordmaestro.com/) (it's a really impressive piece of software...)

Gurdian
31-12-2005, 20:12
I emailed them about that. They said that portions of the manual will be posted on the 4th. Game portions will be posted after kick-off.

Zach Purser
31-12-2005, 22:51
Good point. But if the ramp has FOUR sides and ONE flat top (like a plateau), doesn't that mean that there is room for FIVE robots? This would work better with the symmetry of the field. The top spot would of course be worth the most points. The ramp would take up a lot of room on the field, no matter what it's shape is. Think like these trucated pyramids, except less steep:


Anyone looked at the food guide pyramid lately?
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/Fpyr/pmap.htm
What does the pasta part of the food pyramid look like? :-)

phrontist
31-12-2005, 22:58
Anyone looked at the food guide pyramid lately?
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/Fpyr/pmap.htm
What does the pasta part of the food pyramid look like? :-)

Good find!

I'm almost convinced about the ramp-shape now...

RoboMadi
31-12-2005, 23:34
I think there will be five robots against each other. Well i guess that is possible on a pentagon shaped goal or bowl in the middle, full with sticks or something like 'spaghetti'. Well shovel then kinda makes sense; means something to pick up those sticks or pool noodles.
and green or montana?........CMU??...
only 7 more days to go......sooo excited can't wait!!

Imad

Zach Purser
01-01-2006, 03:03
Just to toss one more idea into the mix, look at this map of Montana:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.040182,-109.687500&spn=10.511987,14.194336&hl=en

The "green" on the map in Montana is Glacier National Park.

Glacier’s mountains are not particularly tall – the highest peak in the park is just over 10,000 feet, but no other national park in the lower 48 states puts visitors so close to such superbly sculpted mountains. They were once beds of sediment under shallow seas that were raised far above sea level in the convulsions that created the Rockies. Later, Ice Age glaciers sculpted them into often pyramidal or steeply sloping forms.
http://www.theculturedtraveler.com/Parks/Archives/Glacier.htm

capnrmorgan
01-01-2006, 12:01
I am new to CD and also tried to search this thread for "Flat green pool noodles". So if I am repeating this discussion....sorry

My daughter takes swim lessons and to make a short story....

They had flat green pool noodles that looked exactly like pasta. I am searching the internet for a picture of them. What do you think? Could they be talking about an obscure flat pool noodle? It would be hard to pick them up but not too difficult to navigate over them...just a thought

Zach E.
01-01-2006, 13:08
The Montana's green heights make me think of a cylindrical field
with a flat point on top that holds the goal.


The shovel's show hint is much more confusing. I see many post of
people looking at the shovel instead of it's show. Now a shovel can be
defined as " an excavating machine; especially : an hydraulic
diesel-engine driven power shovel" which is commonly used for mining
purposes. Now you must look at what that shovel's show can be... "an
indication of metal in a mine or of gas or oil in a well". So I draw
the conclusion that we have a game piece obsessed with metal in a mine.
If anyone can get any sense of that please post it.


The 5bots and pasta part could mean any number of things. Maybe
its just me but the way its phrased I don't see any teams or alliances
but a free for all. Pasta makes me think its a long flexible scoring
piece and that all the robots are tangling with them playing a sort of
tug-of-war. So torque and grip power will be important.
Thats all I can make of it. :rolleyes:

MARK
01-01-2006, 13:28
how's everyone doin'? I haven't been on CD for a while, but I just wanted to throw in my 2cents...

This is my fourth year in FIRST, and I don't remember any game clue that really made great sense, even in hindsight. Take last year's clue:

While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."

Could someone tell me or update me on how this clue foreshadowed Triple Play? Thanks.

Joe J.
01-01-2006, 13:29
we have a game piece obsessed with metal in a mine

As someone mentioned earlier Montana's state flag has the phrase: oro y plata, on it, Gold and Silver which are mined metals.


Maybe we have to get (mine for) the game pieces out of some kind of structure that has holes in it.

Could someone tell me or update me on how this clue foreshadowed Triple Play? Thanks.

Check out the Looking Back: 2005 Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40731&highlight=2005+hint) thread.

phrontist
01-01-2006, 15:44
The food pyramid refrenced above is deprecated, this is the new one:

http://mypyramid.gov/images/Home_image.gif

Are we going to have steps?

Nuttyman54
01-01-2006, 15:49
It would be an interesting idea, but I highly doubt that FIRST would use the same game in two competitions in the same year. But if it is, I've got about 4 different designs that would work:).

I think that auto mode at the end is feasible. If there were some sort of pause between the operator control and autonomous, it would be possible for the refs to discern where a robot is in respect to the two modes.

I don't even think a pause is necessary. In past years, there's always been an audio clue signalling the end of autonomous...the could just use that for the begining of autonomous.

drew.fineberg
01-01-2006, 16:10
First off...lets just start by saying that last year triangles were used and in the year before that circles were used, so the only shape in their logo not used in succession is the square!!! Possibly the square will be used in this one?

five bots tangling with pasta:
the five bots either means a free for all or 2 vs 2 vs 1, the 1 being a bot controlled via one continuous program and not humanly controlled
if we do have a free for all there will somehow have to be teams involved because the spirit of the competition is having positive learning experiences through interaction with other teams
as for the pasta that could be part of the playing field...shrug...i don't know about that

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show:
since this is written in riddles it is easiest to look at each part individually and then to conceive its connotations....
a game piece - obvious, and strait forward
obsessed - to have excessive preoccupation with something
a shovel's show - we all know what a shovel is, but what does it show??
my guess is that when the act of shoveling is complete what it has to show is a pile or mountain, obviously we cant have snow, so maybe its meaning is in relation to the pasta?
therefore there has to be a game piece on the field that is used to hold or maintain a "shovel's show" or pile of perhaps the "pasta"

and seeing Montana's green heights:
Montana's mountains aren't green, they are white because they are covered in snow
the general agreement seems to be that the green refers to the color used by the cameras in the autonomous mode in 2005
perhaps the height refers to the game piece in the aforementioned line??

my conclusion:
there will either be a 2 vs 2 vs 1 or a free for all where the object will be to amass or pile pasta like pieces on an elevated platform via the means of a shovel or other mechanism...

-DBF
HSMSE
1520

Steve Horn
01-01-2006, 16:47
First off...lets just start by saying that last year triangles were used and in the year before that circles were used, so the only shape in their logo not used in succession is the square!!! Possibly the square will be used in this one?

Actually the square was used in 2003 (the plastic bins).

My guess on the 2006 game: a 2 vs. 3 match where one robot changes alliances during the middle of the match. Just my $.02.

KTorak
01-01-2006, 17:25
Actually the square was used in 2003 (the plastic bins).

My guess on the 2006 game: a 2 vs. 3 match where one robot changes alliances during the middle of the match. Just my $.02.

I know it would be cool to see a 2 vs. 3 thing, but that would just complicate things and reduce the amount of matches per team at an event if only 5 teams play in each match. With the increasing growth rate of FIRST, I don't think we'll go back to less than 3 teams. As for all of the other complicated game descriptions, going beyond KISS just complicates things greatly and is asking for multiple problems with malfunctioning equipment. As for the food pyramid post, I don't think a tetra shape will be used becuase teams already grasped how to control them, unless they throw some kinda of curve ball at us. Just my 2 cents...

phrontist
01-01-2006, 17:38
I know it would be cool to see a 2 vs. 3 thing, but that would just complicate things and reduce the amount of matches per team at an event if only 5 teams play in each match. With the increasing growth rate of FIRST, I don't think we'll go back to less than 3 teams. As for all of the other complicated game descriptions, going beyond KISS just complicates things greatly and is asking for multiple problems with malfunctioning equipment. As for the food pyramid post, I don't think a tetra shape will be used becuase teams already grasped how to control them, unless they throw some kinda of curve ball at us. Just my 2 cents...

We were actually refering to just the pasta portion of the food pyramid. It's got a trapezoidal cross section.

MadEyeMechie
01-01-2006, 18:02
I began to wonder, and after a bit of searching, as it turns out...
there is a band called The Shovels. So...given the strange hint of the picture
with the computer song timeline, .....it could just be possible that
"...a shovel's show" is a concert. They appear to play what is called alternative country or punk country (?), and are located in Canada, but I havent been able to find out much other info about them.
Then, Montana is on the Canadian border. Something about borders, crossings, heights?

What's it mean?
I haven't a clue.

Nuttyman54
01-01-2006, 18:07
maybe it refers to one of their songs...? (i've never heard of them, so i wouldn't know)