2006 Official Game Hint Discussion [Archive]

Alex Golec

23-12-2005, 18:15

"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
Five? such a strange number, it goesnt seem to work out if you want equal alliances. I really have no clue what to make of that. Pasta reminds me of those foam noodles. that kids always take to the pool. Those could be really fun scoring objects, but might induce the same dread and annoyance as the floppies did in 99.

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
what does a shovel show? You move stuff with it, so if the show the process of liftinf stuff up into a goal or something like that? Could indicate a highly offensive game where a lot of scoring is required.

"and seeing Montana's green heights"

well, green was the unofficial color of the CMU, so this might suggest it's comeback. Montana is a rather large state, this + the word heights seems like it points to there being a large object in the middle of the field, like a huge green goal or whatnot.

To summarize, my thoughts on it are:
1) Foam noodles.
2) Use of the CMU Cam
3) A large green goal/tower the size of montana in the middle of the field.

I'm not quite sure the litereal meaning of "Five 'bots tangling with pasta." It could be scary. Six was quite crowded last year, but it made for even alliances.

Well, only 2 weeks left. I'll definitely be watching the evolution of this thread with interest.
_Alex

Adam Richards

23-12-2005, 18:30

Time for an analysis:
five 'bots tangling with pastaA few possibilities here:
5v0 - Hopefully not. 4v0 was irritating for some teams. Adding another team into that would create issues.
2v2 - Maybe they're just saying 5 to throw us off (as always)
2v3 - Unbalanced teams, yet still plausible. The team of 2 might get extra points to balance out the lack of a 3rd robot.
3v3 - Again, they could be trying to throw us off.
2v2v1 - Few options here. Two alliances and a lone team fighting to win. The lone team could potentially be a mercenary working for whatever alliance they feel like, or the points gained by the lone bot could be added to both alliances.
2.5v2.5 - Perhaps we have 3v3, yet one random robot gets disabled every 20 seconds, and another is "unfrozen"

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's showHmm...
Shovel - A lifting mechanism for pickup sticks perhaps?
Snow/Ice - Lets see... a shovel picks up snow in winter. Maybe we have a sled or even CURLING on snow/ice?
and seeing Montana's green heightsTwo words pop out here: seeing and heights. Seeing could be a reference to the reappearance of either the CMUcam or Infared. Heights could mean a multi-leveled game platform or a hill on the field or a raised part of the field.

Beth Sweet

23-12-2005, 18:41

I think my guess that 5 "'bots" of pasta has something to do with Dave eating a lot would be quite valid... hehe

[Edit] My final analysis is that it is a pasta eating contest between Dave and 5 robots to see who can eat more

sciguy125

23-12-2005, 18:47

If I were Dave, I'd post correct "ideas" here about the game just to throw us off.

But, now that I've posted this, he'll give us wrong hints. That will give us a way to eliminate the wrong ideas.

Arefin Bari

23-12-2005, 18:47

... What if there are 5 foam noodles for each team to play with? And I don't think I am going to analyze "bot."

eiii

23-12-2005, 19:04

It's a shovel's show. Sounds like digging to me, but that seems a bit to obvious...

I'm dreading whatever pasta means.

Madison

23-12-2005, 19:09

I'm not one to care about the hint so much -- I have enough things to worry about, I guess. That said, y'all are amateurs ;)

For your consideration: "Just Shoot Me," and "8 Simple Rules".

Safarley2901

23-12-2005, 19:11

Well the hint mentions "A game piece obsessed with a shovel's snow"

The Clue Says "A game piece obsessed with a shovel's SHOW" It wouldn't have anything to do with snow or ice, look at where the regionals are.

You can't have snow or ice, at a regional. You realize how fast it would melt? For anyone that has been to a regional they should realize that ice isn't even a feasible idea.

(Not trying to flame, sorry if I came across that way. Just didn't want anyone thinking that they would actually use a snow or ice game field.)

Alex357

23-12-2005, 19:11

Maybe its 2v2 where the other "robot" is actually a moving field element like a shovel?

Safarley2901

23-12-2005, 19:13

Actually I was thinking it may be a free for all, style game. Or a 1 team idea. So no alliances. That would be sort of awkward though.

Kyle Love

23-12-2005, 19:13

2vs2 with the re-apperance of the placebo?

Rampant Hero

23-12-2005, 19:23

The robots arent obsessed the shovels show
It says a game peice

Rampant Hero

23-12-2005, 19:24

has anyone connected previos hints to any of this

Ted Boucher

23-12-2005, 19:26

Well, these are my 2 top ideas so far...

1. One of the definitions of "shovel" is "The amount that a shovel can hold; a shovelful: One shovel of dirt" ... so could the game piece have to be filled?

2. "a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show and seeing Montana's green heights" ... the "and" can make the heights relate to the game piece.. so the game piece might have to be up high to score points... kind of like in 1999 with raising the floppies to a certain height

Billfred

23-12-2005, 19:32

I somehow doubt that we'll see a placebo as a full-on FRC robot in its own right, as one of the oft-mentioned constraints is that a team should be able to replicate the field with stuff from Home Depot. And you just can't get an IFI RC at Lowe's.

The fact that a shovel show is being held at the High Wire Gallery (http://home.comcast.net/~philadelphiawriters/articles/06_2004/highwire_shovel.htm) (link credit: Not2B) makes me wonder about hanging making a return, but perhaps in the form of having to traverse something while hanging. (Teams like 237 and 330, who perfected the art of the monkeybot in 2004, might have the edge here.)

On the other hand, I think I'm going to just go back to finishing off the Pre-Season FF draft, run a couple more caption contests, and relax before the madness.

Rickertsen2

23-12-2005, 19:33

Maybie "5 'bots" means exactly what it sounds like which is that there will be 5 robots on the field. This could mean a number of different things:
5v0 - This would be cool
ueven teams - could be interesting
2v2+1 - The 5th team either switches sides or somehow influences the game in a special way. I think this is highly unlikely

Well when pasta is uncooked, it is straight. Remmeber the batons (straight things)? Shovel: thing that picks up logs(straight things)? The game peice will be some sort of log-like thing.

Montana + heights - montana has mountians. I don't think the field will be flat this year

Alex Burman

23-12-2005, 19:39

i think there will be possibly a third alliance introduced this year as well as a hill or mound.

There was the mention of pasta. As well as green.

Pasta is one of Italy's biggest foods, green is on the Italian flag. The Italian flag it broken up into 3 sections, green, white, and red 2 of which are associated with the colors of first if you look to the first logo.

Italy also has allot of mountains which relates to the green heights

in addition i found this from
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/montana (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/montana)
and significant lumber and mineral extraction (gold, coal, silver, talc, and vermiculite) industries.

Vegetation of the state includes ponderosa pine, lodgepole pine, larch, fir, spruce, aspen, birch, redcedar, ash, alder, rocky mountain maple and cottonwood trees. Forests cover one-fourth of the state. Flowers native to Montana include asters, bitterroots, daisies, lupins, poppies, primroses, columbine, lilies, orchids and dryads. Several species of sagebrush and cactus and many species of grasses are common plants in some regions. Many species of mushrooms and lichens are also found in the state.

i was thinking since we had 2 teams of 3 last year
it would be
3 teams of 2 this year

Billfred

23-12-2005, 19:48

in addition i found this from
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/montana (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/montana)
and significant lumber and mineral extraction (gold, coal, silver, talc, and vermiculite) industries.
Having gone through two hints in my FIRST career, I'm willing to bet that you may be onto something here. The derivative thing seems to be the key. (After all, was Led Zeppelin or John Neun on the field?)

Perhaps we'll have to maneuver our robot to retrieve things from a somewhat awkward situation? (Imagine if you had to get tetras out from the center goal from this year. Scary notion, especially if they were to raise the goal a bit.)

looneylin

23-12-2005, 19:57

i was thinking that

five 'bots tangling with pasta
mebbe 5 robots get to hold batons or get the option to get batons (i really have no idea lol)

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
means that u have to stack batons as high as u can

and seeing Montana's green heights
n mebbe after u stacked the batons as high as u can, u need to use ur camera (like last yr for the vision tetra) to reach some goal. dave said last yr at kick off we'll use camera's more, so mebbe this yr the camera obstacle will be a bigger part of the game

Vince lau

23-12-2005, 19:57

Quantumman

23-12-2005, 20:08

Pasta does not have to be spaghetti.

I also don't think that the pool noddle foam toys would work because they are long and it would be hard to put them somewhere (as every game has used as the scoring method)
A list of pasta types with pictures can be found here :Hormel Foods (http://www.hormel.com/templates/knowledge/knowledge.asp?catitemid=3&id=171&floater=disabled)

-shovel's show could imply that the piece needs to be lifted off the ground

-seeing...heights could imply that it needs to be put up high to be scored

-considering the lack of punctuation, the pasta might not be the game piece.

-If you move the apostrophe over so that it is on the "five" and not the "bots", then it is simply saying five' or five feet/foot bots - perhaps a reference to the size limit.

sburro

23-12-2005, 20:09

One of Webster's definitions of show is "to point out". I think there will be a devece on the field to "show" the shovel what to pick up. maybee a trafic light type object that chooses a color at random and you have to get that color object at that particular time.

Dan Richardson

23-12-2005, 20:12

I think someone might have been on to it in the other post when they mentioned Joe Montana.

the clue mentions "Seeing Montana's Green Heights " well Joe Montana played at Notre Dame and played in a green jersey Number 3. Instead of saying we are seeing an object maybe seeing would be more of an adjective describing Montana and in his green jersey some heights he accomplished. He did win 4 superbowls, was inducted into the hall of fame recently. ( 2000 I believe? )

I havn't found any of his great achievments while he was at notre dame but maybe his actual physical height has something to do with it.

Maybe it means that there will be 3 green targets at some height on the field in which we have to place the pasta.

Still trying to figure out what they are telling us :-) Its a different point of view .. discuss :-)

Kristian Calhoun

23-12-2005, 20:15

Well when pasta is uncooked, it is straight. Remmeber the batons (straight things)? Shovel: thing that picks up logs(straight things)? The game peice will be some sort of log-like thing.

Montana + heights - montana has mountians. I don't think the field will be flat this year

Maybe some sort of "king of the hill" type game with (green?) foam noodle where the bot standing in a particular area at the end of the round or on whatever is supposed to represent the "hill" in this situation scores bonus points?

The heights reference might mean that the field won' just be flat, maybe raised, multi-leveled, or maybe with some sort of mound on it? Or maybe you will have to score into a goal that is placed up high, or stack/unstack the noodles.

the 5 bots part is confusing, because you could divide the bots into diff. coalitions, or put them into a number of different situations where the total number of bots is 5. or this part of the clue might have been purposely made to mislead us.

well, that's just my two 2 cents. ;-)

viking1902

23-12-2005, 20:20

i believe that the " 5 'bots" part has nothing to do with the actual number of robots on the field. a " 'bot" might be a goal of some kind that "tangles" with "pasta." i believe that "pasta" might suggest the use of fun noodles or another pasta-shaped object.

Billfred

23-12-2005, 20:24

i believe that "pasta" might suggest the use of fun noodles or another pasta-shaped object.
What about rope? Perhaps some net to go under?

Alex Burman

23-12-2005, 20:31

-If you move the apostrophe over so that it is on the "five" and not the "bots", then it is simply saying five' or five feet/foot bots - perhaps a reference to the size limit.

i don't think they would miss punctuate on something to carefully planed out

we can't forget the Emerald Isle though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

rocky terrain, the flag is almost identical to Italy's except its orange not red

Ireland has a history of being separated with goes with my idea of multiple teams

according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ei.html
Ireland has the natural resources of natural gas, peat, copper, lead, zinc, silver, barite, gypsum, limestone, dolomite

Italy has coal, mercury, zinc, potash, marble, barite, asbestos, pumice, fluorospar, feldspar, pyrite (sulfur), natural gas and crude oil reserves, fish, arable land

about joe montana's stats at notre dame http://www.thedebster.com/ndstats.html

Quantumman

23-12-2005, 20:31

ok this may be completely off, but if anyone has heard of the idea of entanglement(the idea in quantum mechanics that to things can be so closely related that by changing a property on one thing you effect the other as well). If we apply this to the hint then perhaps the 'bots' are not the robots, but some sort of field element that releases the 'pasta' game piece.

Travis Hoffman

23-12-2005, 20:38

I've found the key to unlocking the mystery of "shovel's show"! Turns out they're talking about a TV show....

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=1456864&cid=80488&fp=F

What....it wasn't obvious to you guys???? :p

Francis-134

23-12-2005, 20:44

Billfred

23-12-2005, 21:03

After a bit of mediation, what goes well with pasta?

Meatballs.

All of a sudden, I'm getting scary visions of us having to retrieve balls from a big area littered with ropes or noodles or something.

Bill_Hancoc

23-12-2005, 21:09

It wouldn't have anything to do with snow or ice, look at where the regionals are.

You can't have snow or ice, at a regional. You realize how fast it would melt? For anyone that has been to a regional they should realize that ice isn't even a feasible idea.

Living in michigan it gets pretty cold outdoor reginal??? I was at the Monster jam and they had a halftime show with snowmobiles and despite being ^of 80 degrees in there the snow was there in entirity the whole time.

I think someone might have been on to it in the other post when they mentioned Joe Montana.

the clue mentions "Seeing Montana's Green Heights " well Joe Montana played at Notre Dame and played in a green jersey Number 3. Instead of saying we are seeing an object maybe seeing would be more of an adjective describing Montana and in his green jersey some heights he accomplished. He did win 4 superbowls, was inducted into the hall of fame recently. ( 2000 I believe? )

I havn't found any of his great achievments while he was at notre dame but maybe his actual physical height has something to do with it.

Maybe it means that there will be 3 green targets at some height on the field in which we have to place the pasta.

Still trying to figure out what they are telling us :-) Its a different point of view .. discuss :-)

I think that Stud Man Dan is on to sumption here, look back at the post about decoding the '05 hint
especially the part about the name of the game (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=420513&postcount=1) and the history of it. The FIRST hint comittee may be leading something historic with this part.

For the montana part i am guessing that there will be something large similer the the center goal last year that will block the view of the other side of the field, i dont know what leads me to think this but i just do.

EricH

23-12-2005, 21:12

Bringing Dave's hints in as well:
"five 'bots tangling with pasta" Analysis: There will be five robots at a time. I don't know how, but possibly there are six with one off by itself.They will be tangling up in something-- this could go with the English Channel hint. Although "pasta" suggests spaghetti of some form, it may be sauce, because you almost never see it without sauce.

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show" Analysis: First, you have to figure out what a shovel's show is. Personally, I think it might be the shovel's handle, which would put batons into the game. I am most likely wrong on this.

"and seeing Montana's green heights" Analysis: First, seeing, particularly seeing green. I think there will be a return of the cmucam. Montana has mountains, so there will likely be a ramp to go over, possibly green. Green: possibly three alliances with green being the third. Green heights: possibly forested hills, so there may be a "forest" of batons (or something) on said ramp. Worse yet, a game piece that can see.

OK, enough speculating. I'll leave for now before my brain is totally fried. We'll see what they've got for us in two weeks!

Bill Moore

23-12-2005, 21:12

A good description of "shovel logging" is here. In particular, look at the description of the serpentine path the logger takes on very steep slopes (near the bottom).

http://web.cocc.edu/logging/szlinks/shovellog.htm

Alex Burman

23-12-2005, 21:18

For the montana part i am guessing that there will be something large similer the the center goal last year that will block the view of the other side of the field, i dont know what leads me to think this but i just do.

rocky mountains
essentially
cuts off the west coast from the rest
so possibly not being able to play defense
or maybe just one way over to the other side?
potential strategy to block the one way so your opponents cant inter fear

CmptrGk

23-12-2005, 21:23

five 'bots tangling with pasta

i dont really want to say this, but could the bots be driven by tethers again?

[21:14] <Friend1> montana's green heights
[21:14] <Friend2> the shovel has me stumped
[21:14] <Friend1> probably evergreen aka xmas tree
[21:15] <CmptrGk> so, something could get stacked on a tall object
[21:15] <Friend1> star on a tree
[21:15] <Friend1> but the game piece i dont see
[21:15] <Friend1> unless its an ornament

maybe there will be tall scoring structure(perhaps green), with something that needs to be placed on the top. and then smaller objects would need to be hung on it in the middle.

aztech75

23-12-2005, 21:24

if i had to make a guess about the shovel part of the clue i would go back to some of the previous theory's. Every1 was talkin abou the new traction wheels from IFI so it could have something 2 do with a slick surface (when it snow it gets slipery and shovels remove snow) on the field. Deffinently not ice or snow, but some kind of plastic like on the ramp in 03.

but im prolly way off

viking1902

23-12-2005, 21:27

i dont really want to say this, but could the bots be driven by tethers again?

i've got it!! this year's game is going to be just like "Maize Craze" except instead of corn kernels its going to be a bunch of ziti and spaghetti!

Kyle Love

23-12-2005, 21:29

In that case 4 teams already know how to play on wierd stuff ;)

Bill Moore

23-12-2005, 21:31

Definitions for the term "show":

http://www.answers.com/topic/show

Specifically, definition Noun 6c:

"A usually competitive exhibition of domestic animals"

Okay, who's willing to admit they treat their robot as a pet? :D

CmptrGk

23-12-2005, 21:33

i've got it!! this year's game is going to be just like "Maize Craze" except instead of corn kernels its going to be a bunch of ziti and spaghetti!

sorry for the off topic but,

Andy Brockway jokingly said this at our last meeting.

Safarley2901

23-12-2005, 21:36

Some one has already mentioned this to me, but did you guys know that Montana Green is a power company? It researches in ecofrendly power sources, ex: wind, solar.

nalbonec

23-12-2005, 21:41

The purpose of a shovel is to dig a hole, it's show is the hole. Maybe a game piece that has to fit into a certain shape hole, like the game Perfection?

phrontist

23-12-2005, 21:46

"and seeing Montana's green heights"

well, green was the unofficial color of the CMU, so this might suggest it's comeback. Montana is a rather large state, this + the word heights seems like it points to there being a large object in the middle of the field, like a huge green goal or whatnot.

Montana (http://www.montana-paint.com/) is also an extremely popular brand of spraypaint, particularly amongst graffiti artists. My brother has several nice hues of green...

5 Makes me think that perhaps we'll be going back to two on two matches, with the "placebo (http://www.firstwiki.org/Placebo)" coming back, perhaps this time in a way essential to the game. It could be a target of some sort.

Does anyone have the exact wording of the VCU "snow" hint? I was there, but I can't remember... :confused:

Mike AA

23-12-2005, 21:52

I don't believe the game pieces will be noodles at-all. Mainly because this isn't an item which any team in the northern states will have an easy time finding due to the fact we don't swim much during the winter. I do however believe there will be something stored which gets dumped like the balls got dumped a few years back from above the human player. Then the item, easiest item to make is baton shaped, gets picked up and stored into a "goal", likely a box?

-Mike

Vince lau

23-12-2005, 22:00

Alex Burman

23-12-2005, 22:01

The purpose of a shovel is to dig a hole, it's show is the hole. Maybe a game piece that has to fit into a certain shape hole, like the game Perfection?

that could bring in the hoola-hoop idea, that there would be raised up hoolahoops and they have to drop the baton into hoop. 10x multiplier for having the baton rest on hoola hoop

Bill Moore

23-12-2005, 22:02

I don't believe the game pieces will be noodles at-all. Mainly because this isn't an item which any team in the northern states will have an easy time finding due to the fact we don't swim much during the winter.
Pool noodles can be ordered online at any season. Just as bins were ordered in 2003, and balls in 2004.

Repeat after me: "The Internet is my friend." :rolleyes:

sburro

23-12-2005, 22:10

Pool noodles can be ordered online at any season. Just as bins were ordered in 2003, and balls in 2004.

Repeat after me: "The Internet is my friend." :rolleyes:

Imagine all noodles in the US and Canada all sold out in minutes. I better buy stock in a noodle company

ZZII 527

23-12-2005, 22:13

Being a die-hard 49ers fan, I want to believe that the hint does refer to Joe Montana and that "Montana's green heights" refers to things which are 3 feet high. To venture a guess: a central structure with 3-foot, 6-foot, and 9-foot levels to be reached either by robots or by game pieces.

I also like the line of thought that "a shovel's show" refers to a TV show. Another show that has a shovel character is Bob the Builder. Perhaps several different shapes of game pieces will be available and robots must use them to build something to score points.

I don't know what to make of the pasta. Pool noodles fall apart too easily to be used as game pieces, I think.

Swan217

23-12-2005, 22:14

Imagine all noodles in the US and Canada all sold out in minutes. I better buy stock in a noodle company

In that case, you better start now and buy up all of the noodles before the season starts and everyone else rushes to buy them.

In terms of the original clue, I've got a song stuck in my head:
On top of Mount Pasta
All covered with Cheese
I lost my poor meatball
Because somebody's robot went berzerk in autonomous mode

Or something like that...

Andrew Blair

23-12-2005, 22:15

Alright, I ahve a couple possibly importent things to bring to the table. I was interested by the thought that all pasta is not spaggetti shaped. Very important. However, assuming the pasta is long and thing, this would fit in well with a long PVC baton type object. Pasta is also typically not made fresh in America, aka dried! The PVC would be far, far more durable than a pool toy.

Secondly, the 5 robots tangling is probably not to be taken literally, but consider this for the strategy people: What if the format was 3 vs 3, and 1 robot from either alliance had to voluntarily agree to sacrifice their driving ability (i.e., stay on a pressure pad), in order for either alliance to play. So, for example, for 15 seconds into the gameplay after autonomous, if noone had gotten onto the pressure pad, noone would play till like the last 25 seconds, or not at all. If nothing could be worked out between opposing alliances, the best autonomous would win the day. Man, I hope thats not it though. Bit too evil for my liking...:yikes:

sburro

23-12-2005, 22:16

Does five robots equal bigger field?

Ian Curtis

23-12-2005, 22:18

In keeping with the Italy theory, a Sabot is a type of wooden shoe worn in some European countries. Hmm..... Five shoes tangling with pasta?

Andrew Blair

23-12-2005, 22:18

Does five robots equal bigger field?

If its five total, logically it would call for a smaller field. it was 3v3 this year. 3+3=6. Yay for math!!:D

Elgin Clock

23-12-2005, 22:21

Does five robots equal bigger field?

A bigger field than when there was 6? Probably not. But that's if the five 'bots refers to robots. :yikes:

Everything in this clue has multiple meanings.

I'm not going to assume that "five 'bots" means five robots.

Dan Richardson

23-12-2005, 22:28

sburro

23-12-2005, 22:33

well keeping with the historical joe montana perspective you could look at it like this. In 1984 Joe Montana led the NFC in passing for the second time, and won his 2nd superbowl.

In the book 1984 2+2=5 so putting everything together It will be a 2v2 set up.

But according to last year, more teams were at each reginal allowing first to due 3v3. A 2v2 would only work with less teams at eah regional OR less playing time per team, something I do not think first wants to do.

OR

smaller field and two field per regional

Sorry I ment 5v5 on the last post

ducttapehaxor

23-12-2005, 22:35

Maybe the 'bots hint might be referring to 5 bots dots placed on the field, it would also help to fit that the bots dots are regularly in groups of 5 or 6 (this case 5)

from google searched define: bots dots
Rubberized circular bumps that are aligned in groups of five or six to represent dashed road lines. Bots Dots replace painted road lines in sub-tropical or tropical climates. They are not used in colder climates as they would be ripped off by the snow plows.

ChuckDickerson

23-12-2005, 22:36

My guess is 3v3 like last year but there will be some sort of task at the beginning that there will be some sort of race to do first. The first alliance to get this task done gets to disable one of the opposing alliances robots thus making 5 active robots on the field. Autonomous will again be at the beginning thus making it more important to disable an opposing robot.

I vote pasta = pool noodles as scoring objects.

Elgin Clock

23-12-2005, 22:49

http://www.tedsmontanagrill.com/

I like that Montana reference a lot better. And guess what? It's owned by Ted Turner, founder of among other things, Turner Entertainment, based out of Atlanta, GA.

That quite possibly has to be more than a coincidence, and if it's not that's just amazing.

Also, dealing with the Montana FIRST connection; of the 10 teams form Montana, none are registered for The Championship event, but 9 out of 10 are definitely sponsored by NASA.

Dan Richardson

23-12-2005, 22:58

http://www.tedsmontanagrill.com/

.

so what are you saying, elgin, is we are going to be using inflatable BUFFALO!!!!??? WOot

Adam Richards

23-12-2005, 22:59

so what are you saying, elgin, is we are going to be using inflatable BUFFALO!!!!??? WOotNo, inflatable clowns!

Freddy Schurr

23-12-2005, 23:13

Is this serious, I would of thunk that they release Dec 30

Nathan Pell

23-12-2005, 23:13

I did some googling on the shovel issues; I thought this was interesting since last year's hint had a musical reference to it.

"Pank Shovel's music is as unique as its members. Their sound is a Punk Rock/Hip-Hop hybrid that crosses boundaries and challenges the genre's traditional misogynistic stereotypes. Their songs strong lyrical content describes real life experiences with childlike imagination."

So could the "Shovel's show" mean Pank Shovel and one his songs?

Pat Roche

23-12-2005, 23:17

AmyPrib

23-12-2005, 23:23

In reading some info on the state Montana, here was an excerpt:
"...and the dry farming was very successful with the comparatively new and valuable crops of durum, or macaroni wheat, and Russian barley, which is used in straw for winter feed to sheep and neat cattle."

Macaroni = pasta... Maybe instead of corn on the field, it's wheat, or hay, or possible a mess of pvc batons (like said many times). Heh, who wouldn't love to have wheat all gnurled up in their drivetrain.

I don't think they will be pool noodles. Those tear apart very easily, can you imagine robot claws digging into those things?

Also, Montana's green heights. Joe Montana and Trent Green both quarterbacks, yeah? Both had some great successes and "heights".

Montana, as stated has a lot of varied terrains and physical elevations. I definitely think there will be a vertical aspect to this game, but, in what way who knows.

Minerals and Mining have been the lead industry in Montana since the 1800's. Lumber, forests, logging shovels... a game piece obsessed with the shovel's show... maybe...some animal in the forest who doesn't want the logger to tear down the lumber... lol.. I don't know where to go with that yet.

Just a few incoherent thoughts as of now.

And yes Freddy204, this hint came directly from the FIRST personnel.

phrontist

23-12-2005, 23:29

Secondly, the 5 robots tangling is probably not to be taken literally, but consider this for the strategy people: What if the format was 3 vs 3, and 1 robot from either alliance had to voluntarily agree to sacrifice their driving ability (i.e., stay on a pressure pad), in order for either alliance to play. So, for example, for 15 seconds into the gameplay after autonomous, if noone had gotten onto the pressure pad, noone would play till like the last 25 seconds, or not at all. If nothing could be worked out between opposing alliances, the best autonomous would win the day. Man, I hope thats not it though. Bit too evil for my liking...:yikes:

That would be great!!! :D

Dan Richardson

23-12-2005, 23:31

Jon Jack

23-12-2005, 23:37

"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
5v5

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
Here's something you guys haven't thought about: Cloudesley Shovell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudesley_Shovell)

I know the spelling isn't exact, but 'Shovel's Show' might be refering to the incident where Shovell crashed his fleet in home port: "The disaster of the fleet wrecking itself in home waters brought great consternation to the nation. Clearly, something better than dead reckoning was needed to navigate in dangerous waters. This led to the Longitude Act which offered a very large prize for anyone who could find a method of determining longitude accurately at sea. After many years the consequence of the prize was that accurate clocks were produced which became used throughout the world for navigation at sea." - wikipedia.org

I don't think this means that the game will a water game, but it might have something to do with: direction, dead reckoning or maybe even a playing field that has more that one height differention, just a thought...

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
I have a feeling that the Joe Montana hint maybe be going in the right direction, last year's hint had something related to professional sports. Also Montana is home to the Buffaloberry shrub which can reach as tall as 812 feet, just a fact...

Also lets not forget about another hint: "The fox is in the hen house"...

artdutra04

23-12-2005, 23:42

Okay, after letting the hint digest for a few hours free of ChiefDelphi, I've come up with some ideas. But I reserve my right to revise these guestimates if need arises. ;)

But before we get too far into really wild guesses, let's try to keep in mind a few things. We need a set of paramaters to think within before we come to deciphering the official clue.

1. Nothing can extend under the main plane of the playing field. This has to be the case because FIRST is not going to cut holes under the field to account for a subsurface feature. And raising the entire field is not cheap, nor is it probable. The odds are a 95% chance against something penetrating beneath the main plane of the playing field.

2. The main playing field components have to be readily available. Simple as that.

3. The playing field has to be something that does not intentionally cause physical entanglement with robots. How much of a nightmare would it be for field reseters if half of the robots at the end of each match were stuck in coils of rope? I give this a 90% against rope or other physical entanglements.

4. The playing field components have to something that can be easily mocked up by teams of parts from Home Depot.

5. Everything else that has to be considered, including regional logisitics, field reset, etc.

Alright, now to the clue part. :cool:

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heightsThe "five 'bots" does not actually refer to exactly five robots. There will most likely not be five robots. However, there is a significant chance that there will be six robots. The five can be refering to the fact that only five of the six robots can be doing a task at once.

Other ideas, like a 2x2x1 or a 3x2 match seem very unlikely to happen. Having a team forcefully choose to defect or having one robot randomly disable itself during the match seems unlikely. FIRST always seems to try to "even the playing field" and ensure that each team is "equal before the law"; eg. each team has equal amounts of time to build their robot, as well as compete. And the idea of a "random disablement" must send shivers down the spines of the referees. And they thought too many teams complained now?

The "shovel's show" does not directly refer to scooping up sand, but to the process of what a shovel does. A shovel attempts to gather up raw materials from a large area, and deposit it into a dump truck, train car, barge, etc. or some other container. Therefore, for the game object to be obsessed with the "shovel's show", the game object must be scattered about the field. The duty of the robot is to gather all the objects and deposit them into the "dump trucks", aka goals.

The "green" most definitely refers again to the vision camera. But what about Montana? Montaña is the Spanish word for mountain (which is why the state was named so). A mountain implies that there is an incline, which leads us to think that there is a ramp in the center of the field (a la 2003 style). But looking further into Montana reveals Butte as one of the major cities in that state. If I am not mistaken, a "butte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte)" is a tall mountain with a flat top to it and steep sides.

But here is where we tie the first hint back in. There is most likely going to be 3x3 alliances this year. (There is some probability of 2x2x2, but I seem to doubt FIRST would introduce a third alliance). The "five 'bots" can refer to the fact that only five robots can fit onto the ramp/goal/platform at any one time. Or, this can be refering to the fact that the ramp is not two sided, but many sided. Can the ramp be a pentagon, with opportunities for only five of the fix robots to score at once?

The "tangling with pasta" can be refering not to actual pasta, but to a form of entanglement. If you stretch the definition of entanglement, we can get 'being hung up' in a task, or being 'busy' trying to accomplish something. This implies that the robots will have to venture up the ramp to satify an actual task or goal. This task can be hanging or scoring balls into a goal.

I am leaning toward some sort of balls in this year's game. Especially footballs - as they are still considered a ball, even though they are not a "ball" in traditional form. Plus, footballs are long, almost what one might call "baton-like". ;) (I think that there is some element of truth to the baton hypothesis', but I really find it hard to believe that there will actually be batons as the playing field objects.)

Looking further into Montana gives us the state nickname of "Big Sky Country". This can mean that the main goal is very tall, and we have to "reach for the sky". Can the name of the game involve "Sky High" somehow?

And wait, didn't IFI just release their plans for the production of traction wheels (http://www.ifirobotics.com/robot-traction-wheels.shtml)? And I wonder why they chose to make a Vex robot to pick up footballs (http://www.vexlabs.com/vex-gridironbot.shtml)? Why footballs? Why traction wheels? Does this imply a strond, brute-like game, that battles for control of a center goal? Will this finally be the year of "Grid Iron Frenzy"? After all, this leads back to the Joe Montana hint...

Ian Curtis

23-12-2005, 23:50

I suggest we all just stop speculating, read Arthur's post and wait for the GDC to completely redesign the game and release another hint becuase they met their match in twisted hint logic.

Jon Jack

24-12-2005, 00:12

I suggest we all just stop speculating, read Arthur's post and wait for the GDC to completely redesign the game and release another hint becuase they met their match in twisted hint logic.

I agree, Arthur's post does make sense... Just wait two more weeks.

During the year I can't wait for the game hint to be released, but then as soon as it is released and I read it for the first time my head starts to hurt and I regret reading it at all...

663.keith

24-12-2005, 00:17

Sorry didnt have time to go through all the posts this might be a repeat. The last two lines look like they belong together making this a riddle(obviously).

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show and seeing Montana's green heights

I agree that the last two lines refer to the game piece together. To me, it sounds like the games pieces themselves are obsessed with watching shovels do their work and seeing Montana's high places.

"five 'bots tangling..." I think this could possibly refer to something where only 5 (of 6?) can do a certain thing, while a 6th stays on a pad, or does something else.

On the pasta theory. Pasta changes from hard to soft and squishy when it gets cooked. Maybe a game piece that changes once it is scored?

just my $.02

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 00:30

On the pasta theory. Pasta changes from hard to soft and squishy when it gets cooked. Maybe a game piece that changes once it is scored?

THAT would definitely be interesting, but once it's scored, changing probably won't do a whole lot...maybe it changes after autonomous?

gabrielse

24-12-2005, 00:35

What does a shovel have to show? A hole.

Will this year's game involve negative obstacles?

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 00:38

What does a shovel have to show? A hole.

Will this year's game involve negative obstacles?

See artdutra04's #1 above. Unlikely, but not entirely out of the question. Maybe some sort of volcanoe shape...though montana's not known for it's volcanoes..

Bill Moore

24-12-2005, 00:38

I suggest we all just stop speculating, read Arthur's post and wait for the GDC to completely redesign the game and release another hint becuase they met their match in twisted hint logic.
I don't think tying the phrases together is what you should be doing, look at last years clue:
Originally Posted by 2005 FIRST Game Design Committee
While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."
Each phrase gave a separate clue or two, and were not combined.
Amethyst = game piece shape
Baseball players = Game Name
"See" = Vision camera
Numbers clue = Alliance size

Now, separate the phrases from this years clue:
five 'bots tangling with pasta
This sounds like a game name to me. Possibly reflecting that this years field will be 5-sided? (Hey, everyone says "think outside the box", so why should we always, by default, play in one?) Anybody want to play Quint Sprint?

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
I believe this is the logging shovel, and that we will be playing with long rod shaped objects (PVC?).

and seeing Montana's green heights
seeing refers to the use of the cameras. If you don't want FIRST to keep using them, then get proficient at programming them. They still represent a challenge to teams, and that's what this whole program is about -- challenges. (And yes, green will still be the color the robots will be seeking.)

Montana, aside from the previous information is a "lopsided" state. That is, it is flat and prarie in the eastern part of the state, but rises to high mountainous regions in the west. This reference could indicate that the playing field will be higher at one end than the other.

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 00:40

what was the highest Joe Montana threw? maybe thats a hint as to how high a potential hill may be or hanging again

or i was thinking since the field goal is 10 feet high http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_goal#Football_Field_Goal_Dimensions
we could be hanging again or the ramp could go up to that height presenting a greater challenge from 7 feet in first frenzy

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 00:50

Another interesting fact I hit on from this website (http://www.thedebster.com/magicmain.html)

"Known to many as "The Comeback Kid," Joe engineered 31 fourth quarter comebacks in his magnificent NFL career. The following is a list of games in which Joe brought the 49ers (26 times) and the Chiefs (5 times) back from fourth quarter deficits to dramatic wins:"

I know there's been talk here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140) about moving the autonomous period, possibly to the end....anyone else think think is valid?

also a side note...one of his more famous games at Notre Dame was agianst Georgia Tech...in Atlanta, GA

JamesBrown

24-12-2005, 00:53

I haven't seen any other mention of this, I would like to tie the official hint in with the old talk about snow.

First the shovel's show, for the next few months everyt one up north will get plenty of chances to see their shovels and shovel snow (not dirt and not digging holes)

Then montana, while I agree that Joe Montana may be a connection I found this

"Statewide, average annual rainfall is near 20 inches, while rainfall in the higher elevations of the Rockies (especially north) exceeds 80 inches, and snowfall is usually heavy."

Mostly the snowfall at high elevations. I must say many things are pointing towards snow (also you could include pasta-> Italy-> winter olympics-> snow)

Before you all say how impractical snow is because of temperatures you should see that there is more than one definition of snow

The white specks on a television screen resulting from weak reception.

v. tr.
Slang. To overwhelm with insincere talk, especially with flattery.

Phrasal Verb:
snow under
To overwhelm: I was snowed under with work.
To defeat by a very large margin.

To cover, shut off, or close off

those are from dictionary.com I eliminated ones I did not see as pertinent, I believe that either bad reception or to shut off/ close off may be the most pertinent

also games object-> snow-> snowball->balls was a chain of thought that occurred to me.

663.keith

24-12-2005, 00:59

^ Or maybe it will be snowing pasta! :D

I don't think tying the phrases together is what you should be doing, look at last years clue:

"While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."

Each phrase gave a separate clue or two, and were not combined.
Amethyst = game piece shape
Baseball players = Game Name
"See" = Vision camera
Numbers clue = Alliance size

But the whole John Neun and George Burns, fit together with the Pi clue to give the hint about the number of teams per alliance. I feel that the clue is vague enough to have many interpretations varying from very broad to very specific. During the discussion about the clue last year, many people properly hypothesized the tetrahedral theme through the whole last part of the clue.

heh, but I'm probably totally wrong anyway so.... :D

I have mixed feelings about an autonomous mode at the end of the time, it would prove difficult to maneuver your robot into the proper place at the time the autonomous period started. I know my team has had some troubles placing our robot without a remote at the beginning of the match. Imagine teams trying to drive their robot to a specific position with the distraction of 3 other robots :ahh: .

It could be possible that autonomous mode would be something radically different where exact positioning of the robot would not be necessary. How to accomplish this though, I don't really know.

phrontist

24-12-2005, 01:05

If you don't want FIRST to keep using them, then get proficient at programming them. They still represent a challenge to teams, and that's what this whole program is about -- challenges.

They are challenging for the wrong reasons. The difficult thing about the CMU cam has been done for you, recognizing color blobs and tracking them. Algorithmically speaking, homing in on an object given one's current orientation to it isn't terribly difficult. The reason you didn't see every other team capping in auto was because they had tons and tons of issues, and there was little point incentive to spend a lot of time, very little of which would have been real computer-science algorithmic thinking, on implementing a system.

I hope we don't see the CMU cam again, but it looks to be inevitable.

Caio

24-12-2005, 01:05

Hey everyone

New here, signed up to put in some input on this.

If I'm repeating anything, sorry. Here are some ideas:

"Five 'bots tangling with pasta"
2 v 2 with a FIRST bot in the middle, or moving around distracting the other robots. Even teams and implements the "tangling" piece. (Credit to my mother)
Pasta... I'm gonna have to say i agree with the pool foam toy objects. Either that or long objects that aren't easy to manipulate...
"A game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
When I read "shovel's show" i thought of digging... so that made me think of possible dips in the field
when it says "obsessed with a shovel's show", after thinking of the FIRST bot running around, I figured it might be that our robots (human run) will have shovel attributes, and the FIRST robot is a possible game piece that is "obsessed" with our robots...
"and seeing Montana's green heights"
This has automatically triggered the thought of the camera coming back for everyone. Both in the "seeing" and the "green".
"heights" brought the possibility of a ramp. Because they pluralized it, I'm thinking there might be multiple ramps. This plays in with the idea of dips in the field that i mentioned earlier, bumps maybe?

Thats all I've got so far... hope they seem feasible

JamesBrown

24-12-2005, 01:11

I forgot to mention this in my last post but the 2+2=5 accordint to 1984 (one of my favorite books) ties in with joe montana but also with bots

I googled "bots but ommitted robots and robot and came up with alot of gaming sites that refered to both bots and big brothers, (many of these sites with mac ties, we know atleast dave uses a mac)

Big Brother would also be a 1984 reference tying into the 2+2=5 2vs 2 theory

JoeXIII'007

24-12-2005, 01:11

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

Thoughts:

1a. 5 'bots = 4 bots, has to. Primarily to to the explanation earlier of Joe Montana's 1984 season => 1984 novel => the infamous problem in that book of 2+2=5. I mean, FIRST wouldn't put 5 robots on the field really, or have 6 robots with 5 on field, 2 swapping half-way through the match; or would they??? :rolleyes:

1b. (added after #3) There could be 5 bots in this fashion: the old 2 vs. 2 format with 1 'house' robot to add to the challenge of the game. Perhaps it will have a shovel as its main tool to 'show.'

2. Tangling with pasta => rope, wire, pool noodles, whatever. FIRST has finally gotten off of using basic 3D figures and gone to a 4th dimension: flex. Congrats FIRST for making that leap. ;) Or will this 'pasta be an obstacle as well???

3. a game obsessed with a shovel's show => definition from www.ask.com says that show in noun form is a display; a manifestation (or indication of its presence, existence; or one of its forms is revealed) It is very tough to get a good clue on what exactly will go on besides the use of a shovel. The show part, whether its uses will be obsessively exploited, or something along that line; OR whether there will be a shovel obstacle.

4. and seeing Montana's green heights => It would be odd if this portion of the clue DID NOT refer to the CMUcam or other optical device. Other than that: Montana => mountain state => elevated field platform (green ramps lead to this multi-level 'mountain' or green lines lead to the top somehow).

So, in short:

*4-5 robots possible. If 5, there might be a house robot.
*Flexible game pieces and/or obstacles tangle up robots in some way which is not known.
*something to do with a shovel
*some area of unknown elevation with green to follow.

Sorry if this is redundant in any way, just had to post on this.

-Joe

Elgin Clock

24-12-2005, 01:34

Wow.. just wow.

You all found some reference I would have never been able to find in the 4 hours I have been researching this clue. Where did the time go?
I only have a full page full of notes after all. This mystery of this year's clue and the research behind it is, dare I say, worse than studying for finals.
The reward will not be greater per say in 2 weeks, but definitely a lot more fun.

I have found some you all haven't though, but it is 1:30 am and I need some sleep, and some time to mull things over.

Hopefully someone hits on all the issues in the clue that are meant to be uncovered.

As for me, I'm off to bed, and after some more research, and a few days away from the computer, but definitely not the clue I will be back with so much information, you're head will spin.

Good luck to all in deciphering this clue, and also in the 2006 competition.

MikeJ675

24-12-2005, 01:35

Definitions of sabot
n. - Footwear usually with wooden soles 3
n. - A shoe carved from a single block of wood 3
n. - A kind of wooden shoe worn by the peasantry in France, Belgium, Sweden, and some other European countries. 2
n. - A thick, circular disk of wood, to which the cartridge bag and projectile are attached, in fixed ammunition for cannon; also, a piece of soft metal attached to a projectile to take the groove of the rifling.

Could be 4 roBOTS tangling over a saBOT...

Random guess to game points-
-possibly raised, circular center goal or area for bonus points.
-2v2 and one sabot, possibly 2 teams of 3 or 3 of 2. 2+3=5(kinda a loose connection there)
-something will need to be picked up off the ground and moved(yeah, that's pretty much a no brainer)

I've got a bit of a field idea in my head. it would be interesting if it's right.

robot180

24-12-2005, 01:37

What if the fifth 'bot is not a mechanical robot, but more like one of those "chatting aim bots", a computer program that provides information, moderates something, or assists in doing something.

David Guzman

24-12-2005, 01:37

I found Ravioli Makers when searching for pasta. :rolleyes:

http://www.creativecookware.com/ravioli_makers.htm

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 01:46

I found Ravioli Makers when searching for pasta. :rolleyes:

Ravioli eh...beanbags maybe?

Rafi Ahmed

24-12-2005, 02:47

Another interesting fact I hit on from this website (http://www.thedebster.com/magicmain.html)

"Known to many as "The Comeback Kid," Joe engineered 31 fourth quarter comebacks in his magnificent NFL career. The following is a list of games in which Joe brought the 49ers (26 times) and the Chiefs (5 times) back from fourth quarter deficits to dramatic wins:"

Comeback Kid, thats pretty interesting saying that there has been a lot of talk about a comeback of an old first game. 4v0 game in peticular so i think it will be 5v0

As to the five 'bots tangling with pasta. The pasta i would say would be the batons and tangling cuz, or at least i think, its hard to pick batons up.

Ryan F.

24-12-2005, 03:46

People seem to be glossing over the possibility of 1v.1v.1v.1v.1 (Every bot for itself). There are definetly some advantages to this configuaration.

Strange clue.

Cory

24-12-2005, 03:56

Comeback Kid, thats pretty interesting saying that there has been a lot of talk about a comeback of an old first game. 4v0 game in peticular so i think it will be 5v0

Trivia question time--What's worse than 4v0?

5v0, of course ;)

Mme.Miscellania

24-12-2005, 04:41

It's interesting that the clue is in the form of an extended haiku (8-10-8).
Now, haiku are normally 5-7-5 patterns, so maybe this year's competition has an alternating number of robots on the field - maybe one robot out of six is chosen to sit out a round, and get put in the next round.

Beth Sweet

24-12-2005, 09:22

Just to be a pain in the posterior (I hope that word won't be bleeped out), I'm kind of thinking of another idea for the pasta comment.

I'm thinking that there is some sort of a middle "robot" which holds 4 "strings", and that 1 "string" is attached to each robot. Either that or in some way, there is a string attached to each robot which cannot be removed (power source or something) and limits where the robot can go (keeps it on some sort of a track). If following that philosophy, a "shovel's show" might be what is produced in a dig, aka, you have to dig through some sort of a ball pit to find some extra object. As for the green heights of Montana, I think that we're looking at some sort of climbing robots being necesssary with a prize at the top of whatever they're climbing.

MChapman

24-12-2005, 09:44

5 bots, well mayb 2v2 again w/ an obstcle bot or something.
seeing Montana's green heights, definently a chance w/ the camera coming back, an montana's heights..dont they have mountains?? so maybe something to do with climbing.
Pasta?? maybe pasta being a rope of some sort and maybe if there's meatballs involved w/ pasta..something to do w/ ropes and balls. (credit to my friend)

JP_1163

24-12-2005, 09:52

1. Five bots tangling with pasta: Bots must move in and around pieces that are tangled or slippery
2. A game piece obsessed with a shovel's show: A mound of some sort in the field area
3. Seeing Montana's green heights: Montana equals Big Sky Country

The game would consist of an uneven alliance moving through a tangled web of pieces with a camera aiming at a target on top of a mound. Thus King of the Hill on a slippery slope with obstacles that can only be cleared through partnerships.
Whoo, I'm tired already.

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 11:11

People seem to be glossing over the possibility of 1v.1v.1v.1v.1 (Every bot for itself). There are definetly some advantages to this configuaration.

Strange clue.

first is all about team work so they wouldn't get rid of the teams

the competitions can't run 2v2 again with the number of teams that participate, it would require less playing time, less matches, or a longer competition. It seems we have overpopulated FRC to a point where we can't to 2v2

Ian Curtis

24-12-2005, 11:51

Even though I love 3v3 from a strategical standpoint, I think that 2v2 could be done, in fact it almost has to be done if a 2004-esqeu platform or 2001 style barrier makes a return with the same size field we have now. The matches don't need to be shorter either. Much of the time on the field is taken up with resetting the field. It takes a long time, so if the field is easily reset, or maybe even doesn't need to be reset, then 2v2 can happen.

And now for something totally different:

I was thinking, can someone match up the ideas brought up in the stickies in this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=148) forum? Historically some things asked for are included in the game (vision camera is one example).

Joe J.

24-12-2005, 11:51

After thinking about this and reading this thread all the way through here are my opinions/ideas:

I think the fun noodles are a definite possibility as the game piece or maybe a multiplier (like the 30" balls in 2004)

I don't know about the five part most of the options have been discussed already so I won't repeat them, I'll just state my opinions on some of the ones I've read, 5 v. 0 I hope not doesn't seem like it would be as much fun., It seems like 3 v. 3 worked well last year I would like to see it again., I like the idea of a FIRST "house" bot in 2 v. 2 game but it isn't practical when it comes to teams building practice fields.

The shovel clue might mean the robots have to pick up small game pieces (tennis ball, mini basket or soccer balls) and score them or deliver them to the human player for them to score with (that seems to close to 2004 though). Maybe the human player has a shovel like scoop to load small game pieces onto the robot.

I think the heights means the robots will either have to be doing something up high, maybe thats where the goal is or something (like the bar in 2004, goals in 2005), or there is some kind of platform or high part of the field (ramp and platform in 2003)

as for seeing and green parts: I hope this means the CMU Cam is back again, personally I think it was a good part of the game but they didn't make it worth the effort to use it.

Can't wait till Kickoff!!

Jon Jack

24-12-2005, 12:22

People seem to be glossing over the possibility of 1v.1v.1v.1v.1 (Every bot for itself). There are definetly some advantages to this configuaration.

Strange clue.

The good thing about alliances is it forces teams to work together. With alliances if you don't help another team, they could be allied with you in a future match, and if they aren't performing well your alliance isn't going to be as strong. So Alliances force teams to work together. If it is 1v1v1v1v1 then a team could just go battle bots on an opposing team and none of us would want that, right?

Arkorobotics

24-12-2005, 12:31

http://www.arkorobotics.com/images/FIRST2006%3f.jpg

Don't Panic, I made this on an animation software called Bryce 5. This is my vision or estimate of what the game will be. Feel free to mess around with the rules.

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 12:35

Arkorobotics

24-12-2005, 12:37

http://bryce.daz3d.com/55index.php

It's made for terrian, but like to use it for these kinds of things. Plus it's only $99

Beth Sweet

24-12-2005, 13:26

The good thing about alliances is it forces teams to work together. With alliances if you don't help another team, they could be allied with you in a future match, and if they aren't performing well your alliance isn't going to be as strong. So Alliances force teams to work together. If it is 1v1v1v1v1 then a team could just go battle bots on an opposing team and none of us would want that, right?

You know, this post brings to mind another post Dave made last January (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312585&postcount=19)....

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 13:30

You know, this post brings to mind another post Dave made last January (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312585&postcount=19)....

OOH SNAP!
that would change everything in the eliminations but what about the qualifiers?

Adam Richards

24-12-2005, 13:35

You know, this post brings to mind another post Dave made last January (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312585&postcount=19)....
They wouldn't dare. :rolleyes:

Dan Richardson

24-12-2005, 13:36

You know, this post brings to mind another post Dave made last January (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312585&postcount=19)....

that is very interesting, and maybe possible, I would be more worried qualifiers than elimination as well.

In elimination all alliances could just pick 4 teams, but in qualifiers what happens when a robot is broken and doesn't show up on the handicap team.

3v1 heh not exactly fair, however that did happen a lot last year anyways. Maybe the handicap team gets a point multiplier or something.

Jack Jones

24-12-2005, 13:37

Ever hear of a shovel pass?

Here's what I'm thinking - pure speculation of course:

The rate of growth in FIRST teams has been in decline for the past five years. From 38 percent/year to less than 15 percent. Fifteen percent would not be too bad if it leveled off there, but the trend doesn't look good.

A number of us, Dr. Joe comes to mind, have argued that meaningful growth can not be expected without a TV friendly game. One that any couch potato can understand. One where a TV camera can focus on a single point of action, rather than a game like triple play with six robots, dozens of tetras, and nine goals. Not that Triple Play wasn't a great game to play. It was. But spectators want to be entertained, rather than watching others entertain themselves. And they don't like missing something that happened off-camera.

Most of us at the grass roots level who are trying to grow the game find it a very hard sell. Few potential sponsors know a thing about FIRST On the other hand, they know about NASCAR. Why? Because it's on TV - complete with sponsor logos plastered everywhere - and what is there to know, other than go fast - turn left?

So I hope these clues mean that we're going to play pool noodle football - with AstroTurfish carpet, yard lines, shovel passes, forward passes, flea flickers, and so on. Something that if/when put on TV the average Joe will understand well enough to keep him entertained, and prevent him from clicking the remote.

TheDrWho22

24-12-2005, 13:39

Okay, here is my initial take on this, but a more in depth analysis will come later on.

5 bots

Well, basically, I think that there will be a pentagonal field with 5 robots starting on each point (there have been hexagonal fields in the past). You can't have an even alliance with an odd number, so I don't know how that will work.... which then puts the idea in my head that it won't be just 5 robots OR there won't be alliances OR there won't be even alliances and there could be a 2 VS 3 dealy.

With the pasta

I don't think this is in reference to the game piece, but very questionable. The next two lines deal with the game piece. I think this will either mean the robots are tethered down by something and have limited movement OR are tethered like as in not wireless controlled (the latter don't think to much about. I think that it constricts the movement though, because tangling restricts one movements.

A lot of people on the chief delphi forums are neglecting the fact that it says "AND" in regard to the Montana thing. Meaning that both lines are in reference to the game piece. Meaning that the first line isn't. Now what I think of it is, is that you will have to scoop something up like a shovel would and place it in a goal or equivalent thing on a raised platform in the middle of the field.

I think the GREEN heights mean that you it is with the CMU cam like the vision tetras. Which could also hint at a longer autonomous mode or the shoveling and putting in the goal is something that must be done during autonomous mode. I am going to give it another day or so to think and look at it more so and read the chief delphi forums to get some ideas.

petek

24-12-2005, 13:40

OOH SNAP!
that would change everything in the eliminations but what about the qualifiers?
2v2v1 would give the alliances the option of forming a super alliance of 2+2 vs 1, a strong alliance of 2+1 vs 2 or everyone for themselves. If we had winners get loser's score for QP, there would be little incentive to go with the super alliance unless the single robot was a really dominant one.

Or, FIRST could make it really complicated and award QPs as an inverse function of the number of robots on the winning alliance...

Dan Richardson

24-12-2005, 13:40

with the shovel pass post does that make the extra robot, all time qb?

Going back to our Joe Montana Reference?

tfedullo

24-12-2005, 13:43

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
i don't think that, that refers to the CMU cam because it is just to obvious and its not like first to have a game hint where you can tell what it means within seconds of looking at it
that being said this is what i think it may mean:
a third alliance being introduced
why?
during the off season we played with our auton programs, and every once and a while if you held down the program button in a weird way the robot controller would begin to flash in a very strange pattern and the robot leds would flash red, blue, then to our great surprise green.
could this mean a new green alliance?
Edit:
i no longer think so since green is not a first color, however i still think it is to obvious for the CMU cam
Edit 2:
green was a color used by first, and the green led is actually a type of code fault error that the controller sends out to alert the field.
(thank you Ted Boucher)

Jonathan Norris

24-12-2005, 13:44

Did anyone else find it odd that they released the hint so early, even BEFORE Christmas. This seems odd to me, I would have thought that FIRST would have given the hit to us at least after the Christmas holiday :)

evolution

24-12-2005, 13:44

Perhaps we'd see the two alliances with different objectives. The alliance with more teams playing an offensive role and the alliance with fewer teams playing a defensive role?

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 13:56

Perhaps we'd see the two alliances with different objectives. The alliance with more teams playing an offensive role and the alliance with fewer teams playing a defensive role?

That might be an interesting angle. Though I highly doubt it. Each Team's robot would be geared to offensive or defensive. Even if not meant to. And since the alliance colors are choosed randomly, (Meaning, without team having interference), One team could be geared totally torward offensive, but get defensive every match.

Michelle Celio

24-12-2005, 14:08

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
i don't think that, that refers to the CMU cam because it is just to obvious and its not like first to have a game hint where you can tell what it means within seconds of looking at it
that being said this is what i think it may mean:
a third alliance being introduced
why?
during the off season we played with our auton programs, and every once and a while if you held down the program button in a weird way the robot controller would begin to flash in a very strange pattern and the robot leds would flash red, blue, then to our great surprise green.
could this mean a new green alliance?

A new alliance would be pretty insane, but i have no experince with any type of alliance becuase ive never been a compotetion but three would be crazy just from what i've heard from my team mates

Ok so maybe if there is another alliance it wont be green, maybe the mentioned green to throw you to the camera but indeed a new allience but green makes no sence, so maybe its just there to show the alliance relation but maybe it'll be white to corrospond with the logo

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 14:26

ok here's a possiblity. Borrowing from other posts...what if it was a 1v1v1v1v1 game BUT tasks could not be completed without the help of another robot (on another "alliance"), such as one robot must be on a presure pad to lower something (from montana's green heights), but only other robot can complete the task with the lowered object...just an idea

killerofkiller

24-12-2005, 14:28

i dont think they will do anything less or more than 3v3.. we have somany new teams that a 2v2 would be a killer at nationals. also, they can't make the field any bigger because of arena sizes. i know that t UCF in 05 it was pretty tight moving the robot arround and even at the palmetto regional it was as big as it could get.

Dave Lavery's latest away message: "The CLUE has been released! Why are you looking here?!!?!!"

Tom Bottiglieri

24-12-2005, 14:28

Michelle Celio

24-12-2005, 14:32

I still think this years game pieces will be the legs of last year's tetras.

This fits into the whole pasta/pick up sticks theory.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=416789&postcount=119

i had acutally mentioned something like that earlier today to some people about using a PVC piece as the "pasta" i was thinking more or a less a piece with a 1'' dimetier and maybe 4-5' long...

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 14:47

ok, more possible connections with previous ideas:

2v3 with a lopsided field to give the 2 team alliance an advantage (remember, montana's flat on one end and hilly at the other)

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 14:49

I think someone on my team may have already posted this; What if we had to build something with the "Pasta"?. In a most basic sense, like lincoln logs. or K'nex. Just a thought, My design team is having a horrid time trying to figure out how to be able to precisely handle the Baton game pieces, if that is what they are.

Ebolagirl

24-12-2005, 14:49

Ok, so I've read everyones' posts up til this point and I'm still totally baffled. It's also kind of funny to me because analyzing this game hint is like analyzing poetry in English. So I guess those English skills are coming in handy, eh?

I'll add my two cents worth.
"five 'bots tangling with pasta" indicates that there will be five robots on the field. It’ll be 1v1v1v1v1. There won’t be official alliances, but there will be benefits for working together (similar to how BEST does it). There will be some game element that requires robot cooperation and extra points will be award based on completion of that element. Five robots also makes me think that the field will be pentagonal to make everything as balanced as possible. “tangling with pasta” indicates some sort of chaotic game because of the definitions of “tangle”. The shape (and composition?) mimics that of pasta.

I have no idea what the second line could possibly mean.

"and seeing Montana's green heights" is an obvious allusion to the camera. What else in FIRST "sees" besides the humans and the camera? Montana is referring to mountains, because all Montana is know for is its mountains and National Parks. "Heights" indicates an incline or something that the robots have to interact with because hills and mountains are often referred to as "heights".

I have no idea what they're going to do to us, but now I'm totally psyched and I can't wait till kickoff!!

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 14:52

Montana is refering to mountains, because all Montana is know for is its mountains, National Parks, and Mt. St. Helens.

sorry to do this, but Mt. St Helens is in Washington...

Ian Curtis

24-12-2005, 14:54

You know, this post brings to mind another post Dave made last January (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=312585&postcount=19)....

How would FIRST determine "strong robots" from "weaker robots"? Even with that however, I'm a fan of 2v2v3! Why? It'll make for the best defensive battles up here in the Northeast! It also has the potential to make things very exciting for TV viewing.

(Which is continually brought up in the "Game Design" forum.)

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 15:11

663.keith

24-12-2005, 15:22

I really like the idea that "five 'bots tangling with pasta" could refer to five (of the six?) are limited in mobility, and unable to perform specific tasks that others who are not tangled could perform.

I think the post made by Dave about lopsided alliances could be a definite reference to the "five 'bots". Could there possibly be a team of 3 v 2? or better yet, 4v(some number over 1). where the entire team of four is "tangled up", and only one team of the smaller is limited?

that would be cool, and it would even out the lopsided alliances

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 15:30

with the 2v2v3 i think it would be random who got the 3,

the 2 , 2 robot alliances could gang up against the one 3 robot alliance. then the 2 robot alliances would have an even field to take out each other

RP could be determined like normal

also i would like to point out that the hint says a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

the "and seeing Montana's green heights" line is also referring to the game piece

relating to the idea of being able to pick it up in autonomous

maybe the game piece will be raised up high, 10 ft (hight of a goal post in foot ball)

new idea 1 team of 5 or 4 on tether, the other team of 1 or 2 on radio

Michelle Celio

24-12-2005, 15:52

new idea 1 team of 5 or 4 on tether, the other team of 1 or 2 on radio

Tether sounds like it would suffice for the tanglemnt part but would it be a safe option?

SAFE meaning like the connection could possible come lose or come off and if that happens the bot would be imbolized right? i dont really understand the whole tether thing if the teather comes off...i dont know if it will just run wild or imbolized or what

skimoose

24-12-2005, 16:07

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

Art04 and I kicked this one around quite a bit and I agree with most of his points. What most people are missing in the game clue is that last year's clue was hinting at the GAME NAME. Montana's "Big Sky" country. So "Sky High" is right on for a game name. :cool:

"Five 'bots" I'll stick with 3v3. FIRST is always trying to get as many teams into the finals as possible. 1v1v1v1v1 would be reducing potential finalists by 1 robot possibly, and 1v1v1v1v1 games are not TV friendly. Viewers who aren't into FIRST wouldn't understand the game easily. Two teams of bots squaring off, that's easy to understand. If FIRST is to grow, they'll need to get more and more bots involved in games for the action and TV viewability. A third alliance, green? No, FIRST's colors are red white and blue, not green.

"pasta" Again, why is everyone assuming pasta is refering to spaghetti. Shells are shaped very much like footballs. Tieing in with the Joe Montana thought and JVN's gridiron vex bot. Those who look for trends in FIRST games thought this year would be a ball game again. Well what are footballs? Besides, has anyone thought about how the Human Player would interact with the bots? Noodles and pipes don't offer too many options that would be safe (javelin throw anyone?) or TV friendly. Footballs would again bring the athletic side to the HP position.

But if you really want to confuse yourself, just check out all the weird shapes of pasta. Spirals anyone (hmmm, Archemedes screws) or wagon wheels (Westward Ho..... to Montana!) :eek:

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show" Can you think of a better way to pick up footballs? or see below on the shovel's show = dig hole thought.

"and seeing Montana's green heights" seeing = CMU2 cam. I think its here to stay. Afterall, it is prominently displayed on the IFI page on robotics. "green heights" the vision target will be elevated. Tie this with the five bots and the new KOP high traction wheels and its a center raised platform with the target on top. Possibly five sided slope or five goal pits set into the platform (there's your holes gang). Make the ramps out of lexan and viewers can see what's in the goals :confused: . Low cost fields don't need this viewability so plywood would work. Goals being owned by which alliance has the most balls in the goal. (Similar to this year's FVC game) By having a center raised platform it keeps most of a TV camera's focus on mid-field (TV friendly viewing).

With the vision target at the top of a midfield ramp(s), the only question is what's the goal of autonomous this year and what happens when a team acheives autonomous success? :rolleyes:

More fuel for your thoughts. Anyone want to pick up this (foot)ball and run with it?

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 16:17

New idea 1 team of 5 or 4 on tether, the other team of 1 or 2 on radio.

Not to flame anyone, but why would they use tethers? I know it fits the clue "Tangle" but be realistic. How many people are going to replace tethers every time they get cut, or damaged by the other robots? It's excellent that people are thinking outside of the box on this, but people have to take into account what is feasible and what isn't.

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 16:29

Not to flame anyone, but why would they use tethers? I know it fits the clue "Tangle" but be realistic. How many people are going to replace tethers every time they get cut, or damaged by the other robots? It's excellent that people are thinking outside of the box on this, but people have to take into account what is feasible and what isn't.

i'd like to second this...FIRST removed the tethers for safety reasons (too many entanglements) and if you think about it, there have been RULES against potential entanglement hazards in the past few years...why would they suddenly go lax on that rule and PURPOSELY put tethers on every bot?

Bethany Mc.

24-12-2005, 16:31

i really dont think that there will be 2v2....think about it...less teams on the field at a time....more people involved in FIRST...soo there really cant be less teams on the feld..it would take too long...i think it might have to do with 2v2v2....and withthe 5 'bots tangling with pasta..maybe the alliances would have to go on a pressure pad to release some type of "pasta"...and the 'bots would get tangled in the "pasta"..and in the pasta there be a game piece but only one...and then u would have to pick it up with some kind of "shovel"...and bring it to a goal...these are just some thoughts....i just cant wait to see what the game will be...and not worry so much bout the clue...jan 7 wil be here in no time...good luck to everyone have fun trying to figure this out!!

~*~BaMBaM~*~

Smrtman5

24-12-2005, 16:35

Another outthere idea; but the talk of uneven teams brought to mind a gameshow called Blockbusters. It was 2v1 and the basic premise was answering trivia questions knowing the initials of the answer ie: JM= Joe Montana. The person who was alone had to answer 4 correct questions and the 'family pair' had to answer 5.

This basically explains the game:
http://www.gameshow-galaxy.net/block1.htm

Just a thought.

Jon Jack

24-12-2005, 16:45

Bill Moore

24-12-2005, 17:05

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 17:11

maybe it's just me, But I don't like the idea of having FIRST conform to television spectator's needs...It's a unique program, and in no way should it have to conform to the "rules" of standard sports. furthermore, common sports today weren't always popular, so why should this be any different?

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 17:12

The whole point of alliances is to make sure that weaker teams don't gang up on smaller teams like in the old 1v1v1 format. By introducing a third alliance you would end up with the same problem as before, especially if you made uneven alliances. The two weaker alliances would gang up to beat the stronger alliance, it is counter-productive.

Another thing about three alliances is that once again, you make the game unfriendly for broadcasting. Aside from motor sports, every other sporting activity has two teams. To add a third team (alliance) in the mix is to "mess" with the minds of sports enthusiasts. They are not accustomed to thinking of a three-way game, and will look at it as an illegitimate sport.

In all Reality I don't think it would matter much if it did have 3 alliances. As for broadcasting purposes,people would get used to it. But again the 2 weak teams against 1 strong team will happen. I believe, unfortunately so, that the game will be either one of two things; One: A 5 team free for all, Two: A 5v0 game, where all five teams are working torwards one objective.

*
maybe it's just me, But I don't like the idea of having FIRST conform to television spectator's needs...It's a unique program, and in no way should it have to conform to the "rules" of standard sports. furthermore, common sports today weren't always popular, so why should this be any different?

I also agree with Nuttyman here. I don't think the spectators should have any influence on game design at all.

Steve Howland

24-12-2005, 17:15

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

A few ideas to bounce around:

The game objects are obsessed with seeing the green. Perhaps they have a camera (or there is a camera somewhere on the field), and the robots have to position an object somewhere to make the camera point in their direction. (i.e. points at the end if the camera faces your alliance's zone)

Five 'bots seems obvious, but I can't imagine that FIRST would eliminate alliances or have uneven teams. My guess: a 2v2 with another bot helping or hurting everyone. That bot could be a FIRST controlled, or it could be another team. Recall this year's Vex, in which there were 2 types of matches. Perhaps there will be 2 scoring sets in this game - one for being on an alliance and another for being the "middle" bot. This (http://www2.usfirst.org/vex/2005-06/Chapter_3_The_Tournament.pdf) has more about the tournament structure in that game for those who are unfamiliar with it.

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 17:15

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 17:23

I believe, unfortunately so, that the game will be either one of two things; One: A 5 team free for all, Two: A 5v0 game, where all five teams are working torwards one objective.this is assuming that we we are taking the hint at face value and saying there are 5 bots total, though. I don't think we can discount that there may be even teams, one way or another

Granted there are alot of other ideas. I think this is the most likely Nuttyman. But i may be wrong ~Shoulders Shrugged~

In Actuality, Im much more concerned with the design problems (or challenges) That the baton shaped game pieces will present. My Team (We have 3 or 4 people on the team involved in everything from programming to design to fundraising, they are who I'm referring to.) feels that even if the game piece isn't a Baton, we want the extra two weeks of design on the off chance that it is. So we're trying to brainstorm a system that will be able to adjust to what ever scenario First comes up with :-p. It's not going to well as of yet.

*Within weight and cost limits anyway*

~Merry Christmas Everyone and Happy Holidays to All~

sanddrag

24-12-2005, 18:20

I'm going with the pool noodle idea, but I think they definitely will not be a game piece. They are too lightweight.

Instead, I think they will be affixed to a base of some sort (toilet flange?) that will be attached with velco to the carpet playing filed surface. There will be many of these all over the field sticking up vertically. You can maneuver around them, or have the ground clearance to drive over them.

In the center of the field will be an elevated structure of surface HDPE or Lexan. Not all robots will be able to fit on this structure.

At the center of this structure will be an infrared beacon, and a goal of some sorts.

You will be able to score in and descore from this goal.

That is what I predict.

PS. Has anyone heard where from great Car Nack? We are nearly a month overdue for some wise words.

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 18:26

That's an interesting Idea, Not something I would have thought of but it is very plausible. Ground clearance may be a problem though, All I've ever seen as far as ground clearance is 5 inches max. That introduces some more design challenges that would be interesting to mess around with.

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 19:01

maybe we are looking at the idea of game piece the wrong way
maybe its new kit parts
i was doing this Google image search (http://images.google.com/images?as_q=parts+of+a+shovel&svnum=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=show&as_eq=&imgsz=&as_filetype=&imgc=&as_sitesearch=&safe=off)

I came across this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AWYNA/qid=1135467950/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/002-2586973-6457655?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=AF8EGQ3KRZQB6&v=glance&n=228013)
maybe there will be new a new kit motor. since snow blowers could be considered mechanical shovels.

With that in mind, we can now look to the last line and see that the camera is back. Because of the and used, it combines the idea with the previous idea. If you take my first idea as truth then the 2nd line would be referencing the kit of parts also. Since it refers to seeing green, it implies the camera.

Now you may think that because the and is used that it is referring to just one thing but think that since it is broken up over 2 lines its referring to 2 things.

killerofkiller

24-12-2005, 19:14

Dave Lavery's latest Away msg:

"With a one-on-one-on-one-on-one-on-one game it would be really easy..."

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 19:18

Dave Lavery's latest Away msg:

"With a one-on-one-on-one-on-one-on-one game it would be really easy..."

so i guess the question is...are his hints reliable? Save for the offical game hint, i'd be skeptical about anything he says...
on the other hand, this is so vague (in typical Dave fashion) that it might just be true...DARN YOU DAVE!!!!

TheDrWho22

24-12-2005, 19:31

Just a thing about the pool noodle ideas....

Remember in the '04 Game. The goals had pool-noodle-like-things that made the goals for the balls to be thrown or dropped into. Maybe the pasta is in reference to the goal. Maybe you have to get past the noodle like things to get to the goals (tangle it up).

Revolverx7

24-12-2005, 19:50

Thinkin about 2v2 with a nuetral robot, or 2v3 with a defense/offense type gameplay coud be cool.

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 19:57

I think if there was a neutral robot that wasn't controlled by one of the FRC teams, spectators would start associating it with battle bots and such more because of there "house robots"

Kristian Calhoun

24-12-2005, 20:09

The game would consist of an uneven alliance moving through a tangled web of pieces with a camera aiming at a target on top of a mound. Thus King of the Hill on a slippery slope with obstacles that can only be cleared through partnerships.
Whoo, I'm tired already.

suppose that the "pasta" is supposed to be an obstacle in the way of our goal on the climb to the object at the top of th e hill. if the pasta are pvc tubes, which would roll down and around the hill/mounds on the field, you would have to try to push them up the hill, which could prove to be quite a challenging task ...

Arkorobotics

24-12-2005, 20:22

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 20:28

Joel J

24-12-2005, 20:29

historically, the (now) annual game clue has been been figured out within the first 4 pages of the discussion thread. I'll read through later to see what everyone is thinking.

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 20:30

suppose that the "pasta" is supposed to be an obstacle in the way of our goal on the climb to the object at the top of th e hill. if the pasta are pvc tubes, which would roll down and around the hill/mounds on the field, you would have to try to push them up the hill, which could prove to be quite a challenging task ...

I was sort of hoping the "Pasta", for lack of a better name. would be metal, it would make it much easier for manipulating the game peices. Provided we'll have to build something or put them in a goal a certain way.

***

I just want to get an idea of how sure we are on stuff, so here's what i've come up with for the most likely aspects of the 2006 game. comments are welcome

1. Uneven Field: it seems the general consensus is that we won't be having a flat field this year

2. CMUcam: from other threads and the clue, it seems the CMUcam is back, by popular (or unpopular) demand

3. Odd-shaped scoring objects: looks like no 4-square balls this time. batons, footballs and pool noodles are the favorites

That's all that i'm relatively confident about...anyone else with me?

Thats about all i have come up with, Though I wish people would read the entire thread, instead of posting things over and over again. (Not referring to you Nuttyman54). As far as the game pieces are concerned, I'm almost positive its going to a baton of some type. The main reason is that one of Dave's "Hints" Included a baton. Though I doubt we are going to have an incline hill though as far as the uneven field is concerned. Again the reason for my thinking, is the feasibility of it. Its a lot harder to have an inclined plane, than just a box on a floor. So most likely, it wont be a drastic height differentiation on the field.

I don't think there is anything we have missed.

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 20:50

Arkorobotics

24-12-2005, 20:53

what about the idea of an additional alliance
other then that yes that seems to be the consensus

If 5, then maybe a pentagon shaped field..

Michelle Celio

24-12-2005, 20:54

Idea!

five 'bots tangling with pasta >>>> POOL NOODLES!! There flexible and you can buy nearly anywhere. >> http://www.poolcenter.com/pooltoys_noodles_water_logs.htm

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show>> pool noodles piled up infront of you like the shovel show picture? > http://www.philadelphiawriters.com/articles/06_2004/highwire_shovel.htm

and seeing Montana's green heights >> ????

Pool noodels wouldnt be durable enough for long periods of play they have a tendancy to fall abart (i know from exprericance) and there for would have to be replaced which is just not econmical

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 20:55

Thats about all i have come up with, Though I wish people would read the entire thread, instead of posting things over and over again.
What would be nice is if someone (moderator) could go through and consolidate all the similar posts so that someone new doesn't have 12 pages worth to read through, and invariably ends up repeating something (because they're not crazy enough to read the entire thing)

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 20:56

I just want to get an idea of how sure we are on stuff, so here's what i've come up with for the most likely aspects of the 2006 game. comments are welcome

1. Uneven Field: it seems the general consensus is that we won't be having a flat field this year

2. CMUcam: from other threads and the clue, it seems the CMUcam is back, by popular (or unpopular) demand

3. Odd-shaped scoring objects: looks like no 4-square balls this time. batons, footballs and pool noodles are the favorites

That's all that i'm relatively confident about...anyone else with me?

additional aliance
in terms of general ideas. yes that seems to be the consensus

Not really, I've only found a couple of people who think there is going to be an additional alliance. I'm still banking on the 2v2 idea.

***

Thats about all i have come up with, Though I wish people would read the entire thread, instead of posting things over and over again.

What would be nice is if someone (moderator) could go through and consolidate all the similar posts so that someone new doesn't have 12 pages worth to read through, and invariably ends up repeating something (because they're not crazy enough to read the entire thing)

True I wasn't trying to be a gerk, but the pool noodle thing was brought up on the first page, they could atleaset read that. But its really not big deal i guess. :-p

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 20:57

what about the idea of an additional alliance
other then that yes that seems to be the consensus

there's been too much debate about whether or not there will be an additional alliance for me to consider it as "agreed upon"

Rickertsen2

24-12-2005, 21:17

I think that if there is vision this year, it will be easier. Last year very few teams pulled it off. If the camera is to make a comeback, the target will be more obvious and easier to manipulate. I found that getting to the tetras last year was the easy part. I never managed to grab them once i got there.

Andy Grady

24-12-2005, 21:22

JoeXIII'007

24-12-2005, 21:26

Here is a goofy but fun game idea to go along with the 5 Bots theories...

2 v 2...two alliances...thats 4 bots.

The goal is robot number 5...fully functional with controls at each alliance station...

Autonomous mode is a race for the green button on top of the hill...

First alliance to hit it, gains control of the goal.

In other words you can drive the goal wherever you want for the whole match as a bonus for hitting your autonomous...giving your alliance a slight advantage.

...the plot thickens..mwahahaha

That sounds too true.

But I'm still thinking that there will be a house robot like Robot wars and Battlebots have, except not for fighting purposes.

Drew Hopman

24-12-2005, 21:28

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 21:29

Here is a goofy but fun game idea to go along with the 5 Bots theories...

2 v 2...two alliances...thats 4 bots.

The goal is robot number 5...fully functional with controls at each alliance station...

Autonomous mode is a race for the green button on top of the hill...

First alliance to hit it, gains control of the goal.

In other words you can drive the goal wherever you want for the whole match as a bonus for hitting your autonomous...giving your alliance a slight advantage.

...the plot thickens..mwahahaha
well...that would certainly be itnteresting....i don't know how feasible, but interesting nonetheless

From a practice field standpoint there are less problems than with a "house bot"...being that for practice you just need said green button. but it does present the problem that an entire field should be buildable with just parts from Home Depot...which could be a problem

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 21:30

I don’t know if this is at all possible, but maybe there are going to be 10 robots on 5 teams….. I think that the ifi controller can handle up to like 35……this would give more games to each competition…. Maybe mixed in with a ball bit on top of a raised platform..

wooooooooooooooooooow...and i thought LAST year's field was crowded...i think this is improbable due to the field size requirement (venue problems)

props for thinking outside of the box tho

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 21:50

Yea the ten robots on 5 teams would be sorta WAY TO BIG :-p. (and 5 *10 isn't 35 either :-p)

Steve W

24-12-2005, 22:00

5 'bots

link from NASA http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast29may_1.htm

henryBsick

24-12-2005, 22:02

Okay,
I TOLD myself I wouldn't make ANY assumptions about the game this year based upon the clue, so I won't... yet.
BUT
Can anyone get anything at all out of this (http://www.philadelphiawriters.com/articles/06_2004/highwire_shovel.htm) link posted by Arkobotics?? I mean... it is a "Shovel's show..."

Petey

24-12-2005, 22:10

That would be great!!! :D

A few thoughts, added as I've perused the threads.

A) There is a very real significance to 'bots that I can't figure out. You know they've puzzled over this hint for ages. There is no way that contraction (complete with apostraphe) is insignificant.
B) I liked the "Montana Green (power)" idea, but then I realized that the green in the hint was not capitalized like a pronoun would be. Again, this would not be overlooked. This says nothing about the Joe Montana connection, of course...I think we will see a connection in hindsight (footballs? god I hope so). Me? I'm going with a "butte" in the center of the mountain, with a CMU cam.
C) I don't think we will see straight PVC pipes. There is no "tangling" involved in uncooked noodles. And I HOPE we aren't going back to tethers.
D) I wasn't around for the last placebo game, but the hint of a sentient gamepiece and an odd number of robots seems to suggest such a device.

Or, it could tie back in to what was suggested during the other thread--that perhaps autonomous mode might come at a different time than usual. Could one robot be disabled? Nuttyman may be right--the Joe Montana connection could be moving the autonomous mode to the end.

Yes! Because what is the 4th quarter of two minutes? The final thirty seconds!

HANG ON!

What does a shovel have to show? A hole.

Will this year's game involve negative obstacles?

Brilliant! This ties in perfectly. No, artdutra, we don't have to worry about digging into a hole, because we can already assume, based on Montana, that there will be a raised surface. If you place a hole in a raised surface, it isn't necessarily subterranean, globally speaking.

E) I'm liking the 1984=Montana's 1984 connection in terms of 2+2=5.
F) Skimoose--sharp catch on the shell (not equal to) spaghetti but still pasta note, and the football analogy. You can't get tangled in shells, but it could be a colloquial use of tangling, more like interacting with.

Ok, done.

Here's my idea:

A center goal raised and ramped. There is a hole in it's center--this is the destination for the footballs that are the game pieces (obsessed with the shovel's show? Possibly a reference to the ancient physics theories of Xenophanes (sp?), a Greek philosopher who believed that gravity was explained by a desire of inanimate objects to be with their like. Rocks fall because they want to be with the ground, which is more like rocks than air, etc.)

Bots can take a defensive stance of blocking the hole without actually entering it or ascending to the plateau (or Butte, or capital of Montana) that is the top of the (square? pentagonal? hexagonal?) large raised goal shape thingy.

The autonomous mode will come at the end of the match. Robots will use the CMU cam to drive towards the ramps of the central goal and rest upon the ramp (HDPE?) of the central goal at the end of the match for bonus points.

This keeps human players from having to throw balls up (e.g. unintentionally at refs/scoring table/audience) as they would to throw through a hoop. Footballs are complicated to corral and roll. Robots will be primarily gatherers (to funnel footballs to their human players) or defenders (which seek to prevent balls from entering the central storage area.)

One thing I can't figure out:

2x2? (2+2=5 1984 reference?)
2x2x2/3x3? (maybe one bot is randomly disabled every few seconds?)
1x1x1x1x1? (applying Darwinism to the robotics competition, where the weak band, in a laissaiz faire fashion, to overtake the strong?)

But other than that...I think my game fits the hint. A few concerns:

A) Hey, I'm probably totally wrong
B) Doesn't incorporate the baton idea hinted in the previous hints thread, unless maybe those are alternate scoring/defensive mechanisms.
C) I don't think the field will be pentagonal.

Can't wait to see what happens. But if they're football, I'm gonna be pissed...they have to wait until I leave to use the type of ball I'm most accurate with :mad: :D

--Petey

p.s. It's 10:20 PM. Santa hasn't come yet, but Dave Lavery and the GDC brought me a headache for Christmas! http://forumimages.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/emot-crying.gif

Yes, that's a SA smiley. Hopefully I won't get the tranny image for bandwidth leaching SA sometimes gives. If it is...mods, it ain't me fault.

Safarley2901

24-12-2005, 22:18

Who knows, There are lots of interpretations of the clue this year. But it's 10:17 Pm on christmas eve, and im going to bed. Goodnight all. And Merry Christmas

Nuttyman54

24-12-2005, 22:21

Who knows, There are lots of interpretations of the clue this year. But it's 10:17 Pm on christmas eve, and im going to bed. Goodnight all.

you knocked the nail squarely on the head: the hint is meant to start speculation and discussion, but is always too vague for someone to be entirely sure that they've gotten the game correct. of course, after the kickoff, everything will be painfully obvious :rolleyes:

Kevyn H.

24-12-2005, 22:45

well......heres what i think......

ive put together the first and last lines of the hint:

five 'bots tangling with pasta
and seeing Montana's green heights

Joe Montana-i would consider his greatest heights winning a Super Bowl or getting to one.......so.......i believe the game pieces are bowl shaped

four corners of a field, each with a bowl, and the fifth is a "Super Bowl" in the middle of the field, which is raised up, and probably colored green or something so you can get bonus points in autonomous mode

you have to fill the bowls with the "pasta", whatever that may be, probably little PVC pipes or something

i guess you could use a shovel to scoop up these little pieces, that would add in the third line

the question is........what will the human player be doing? maybe the robots push the little tubes into a bin (like the 2004 game) and the human player drops it into the bowls?

Steve W

24-12-2005, 22:51

Joe Montana-i would consider his greatest heights winning a Super Bowl or getting to one.......so.......i believe the game pieces are bowl shaped

four corners of a field, each with a bowl, and the fifth is a "Super Bowl" in the middle of the field, which is raised up, and probably colored green or something so you can get bonus points in autonomous mode

you have to fill the bowls with the "pasta", whatever that may be, probably little PVC pipes or something

Sounds like an over sized VEX field.

artdutra04

24-12-2005, 22:51

There are a lot of interesting ideas in this thread, but I am still sticking with my original "prophecy" (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424461&postcount=78) (for a lack of a better word). ;)

I seem to have found more evidence to support my reasoning. In the post that started it all (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=406740&postcount=14), Dave posts about the infamous Tammy Trimble and includes a picture of a baton. A month later, when pressed for a clue, Dave replies (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=413058&postcount=32) that "you already have it". Most people (including myself for a while) took the baton hint too literally. IMHO, I believe that this would be too obvious to be a genuine, bona fide clue. So let's look deeper into the baton-myth.

The cheerleader aspect, and hence baton, are not directly referring to a baton as being the actual game piece. However, lets look into where we might find a cheerleader with batons. The obvious answer, is at sporting games. And more precisely, at football games. The baton part was not referring to an actual game piece, but to where batons are used. The reason for this is most people (including myself) would automatically jump to believe the face value clue, and not dig deeper since they were convinced they had already found the real clue.

I can almost guarantee it, but the Montana in the game hint has multiple meanings - alluding to both the state and the football player. The wording in the game clue is chosen very carefully, so almost everything will have deeper meaning(s). Try to overlook the "face value" of the hint by thinking about how each word is used, where it is used, or what is the actual process it does, etc.

Then, as I posted before, IFI recently built a football toting Vex robot (http://www.vexlabs.com/vex-gridironbot.shtml). Of everything in the world, why footballs? Where they doing preliminary, perhaps of mechanisms that could be used to pick up footballs? Somehow, I've always felt there was some hidden reason behind the football robot, even weeks ago before the clue was released. And somehow, every time I try to think deeper into each clue, everything keeps coming back to football.

Also, everyone should try to remember this:

In FIRST, every team is equal before the law. (i.e. the start of the match.)

Purposely being biased towards one alliance (i.e. uneven numbers on each side) is something that FIRST will probably never do. By having uneven alliances, you will form a major rift in the FIRST community. A small number of teams will continue to make elaborate and sophisticated robots, while the bulk majority will argue that since there is 2x2x1 or 1x1x1x1x1 alliances, all they'll need is a defensive armored-tank robot to gang up on the offensive robots.

All the defensive teams will gang up on the stronger robots/alliance, and FIRST will turn into destructive BattleBots. The quality of most robots will suffer, and the level of engineering that goes into them will plummet. This is a very thing, that potentially might lead to there actually being negative growth in the number of FIRST teams, since many teams might not want to put six weeks of hard work into an elaborate, well-thought-out machine only to have a defensive 'bot attempt to "destroy" it.

FIRST is about building engineered robots, not about building bully robots. Offensive robots look the problem in the eye, confront it, and beat it. Playing strictly defense skirts the problem, and just tries to bring everyone else down. And how does that famous quote by Dave go? "Engineers find solutions, while lawyers find loopholes. Which would you rather be known as?"

There have already been hints about Joe Montana's fourth quarter deficit comebacks. Can you say forth quarter multiplier? Like hanging on the bar in 2004, this will be a way for teams to dramatically increase their points by doing a near impossible goal in the last thirty seconds.

Petey has some really good ideas in his post, especially in the last half of his post. Remember, FIRST always looks to find multiple ways to score. There may be pit in the center of the top of the ramp, as well as a goal of some sorts over the pit. Scoring the footballs into the goal over the pit may be worth double the points as scoring in the pit under the goal.

Petey's idea about autonomous mode at the end of the match, where robots try to get onto the green ramp is a really good idea. And I really doubt that there will be 2x2 this year, or any year in the foreseeable. The way the hint is, it implies that five 'bots are trying to accomplish a difficult goal near the end of the match. In order to have five robots, you will need a 3x3 game. The five refers to the fact that only five of the robots will be able to score at the end of the match. One of the robots will "draw the short stick", and won't be able to score.

Finally, I'll end this post by going back to Dave's Tammy Trimble post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=406740&postcount=14). Did anyone else notice that Trimble (http://www.trimble.com/) is a major GPS navigation company? Will we see GPS navigation in autonomous this year? ;)

sanddrag

24-12-2005, 23:06

Maybe he threw out the baton hint that seemed too obvious to make you all think that it is too obvious so that couldn't possibly be it and you look way deeper than it was ever intended to be and we will actually be manipulating batons just like he said. (how was that for a run on sentence? :D )

skimoose

24-12-2005, 23:14

Sanddrag, Dave never "said" baton, just a picture. He said "majorette". What sporting events are big enough to have marching bands and majorettes? Football. :rolleyes:

Petey

24-12-2005, 23:20

Art Dutra, I like this about you post:

The cheerleader connection. You're right--a baton is almost too obvious, and no one puts any weight to his "majorette" reply because the baton seems like a logical game piece.

I think this is one more piece of evidence in the "football" cart.

Only thing is:

I'm worried about goals with this model. The 2003 game used balls, it's true, but those balls were hefty and it was difficult to huck them very far. If you have people imitating Montana and throwing bullet passes to suspended goals, you're going to run a risk of balls flying everywhere. That's the one part that doesn't add up.

Autonomous GPS? I like it, but seriously--this can't be feasible. It would seem to make a CMU unnecessary, and (to the best of my knowledge) GPS kits aren't precise enough for what FIRST needs (e.g. a matter of inches.)

--Petey

Ted Boucher

24-12-2005, 23:26

would flash red, blue, then to our great surprise green.
could this mean a new green alliance?

The green is actually a type of code fault error that the controller sends out to alert the field. I have not seen a 2005 competition where I have NOT seen this on at least one robot on the field that was showing this fault.

i no longer think so since green is not a first color, however i still think it is to obvious for the CMU cam

And as we have seen in 2001 (http://www.team237.com/2001.htm) , green IS a FIRST color.

Alex Burman

24-12-2005, 23:35

Art Dutra, I like this about you post:

The cheerleader connection. You're right--a baton is almost too obvious, and no one puts any weight to his "majorette" reply because the baton seems like a logical game piece.

I think this is one more piece of evidence in the "football" cart.

Autonomous GPS? I like it, but seriously--this can't be feasible. It would seem to make a CMU unnecessary, and (to the best of my knowledge) GPS kits aren't precise enough for what FIRST needs (e.g. a matter of inches.)

--Petey

aren't they trying the gps kits with the DARPA challenge and aren't the ending up sometimes miles off course?

i found it ironic that i went wondering through the Internet looking for clues and i came across this http://www.filefarmer.com/techshows/

a bunch of tech TV shows. look at the 5th one down, its news pod casts hosted by Kevin Rose and Alex Albrecht. Anyone remember them (tss, tech TV) they get their stuff from dugg.com and their show is called diggnation sense a digging theme. However thats where the relations to the clues end.

Maybe FIRST got us Cheerleaders for the holidays!

I'm signing of for now. Merry Christmas and though you still have a while to go... Happy Hanukah

Pat McCarthy

25-12-2005, 00:08

GPS would not be to feasable at all because most recievers barely work indoors.

KTorak

25-12-2005, 00:24

you knocked the nail squarely on the head: the hint is meant to start speculation and discussion, but is always too vague for someone to be entirely sure that they've gotten the game correct. of course, after the kickoff, everything will be painfully obvious :rolleyes:

Yep. I think everyone worries too much about the clue. Odds are even if anyone is remotely close, it's not like someone is gonna confirm their speculation which will lead into alot more speculation. Even if you guess it right, you don't get a any special price besides saying "I guess it." Personally, I'd rather spend these two weeks with family for the holidays and relaxing (getting away from all the stress) before the hectic 6 weeks following kick off :P

Zoheb N

25-12-2005, 00:38

i agree what is the point of worrying during ur break... i know im excited to know what the game is, but u won't know if u were right or not till kickoff and if u spend all this time trying to come up with a strategy that is wrong than u wasted ur time.... so just relax and enjoy your breaks... but still be anticipating kick off

NiGhtMarE_AnGeL

25-12-2005, 00:46

artdutra, i bow down to you because you make sence (not saying these other people dont)
but it makes sence...jut flat out to me. i honesly thing that you are on to something.

and like a prior post mentioned..pasta comes in many shapes...not just long noodles...so "pasta" is versitle

also, i found this:
http://www.davefurlong.com/POETRY/song_of_panama.htm

a song of panama...where the first line says:
"Chuff! chuff! chuff!" An' a mountain-bluff

"Is moved to the shovel's song;

"Chuff! chuff! chuff!" Oh, the grade is rough,

A liftin' the landscape along!"

i thought it mighty interesting. i hold true to the "mound" in the middle idea..
but i am brain dead just from READING all these posts!

lets see how close (or far) our guesses were on the 7th!

Merry christmas to you all, and happy new years too! :D

* I AM A LEGO HEAD :] *

Jeff K.

25-12-2005, 00:57

"Chuff! chuff! chuff!" Oh, the grade is rough,

A liftin' the landscape along!"

Could the game involve having to lift a part of the field that is painted green autonomously to some height?

My two cents...it's late..and too much eggnog.

Merry Christmas

Cory

25-12-2005, 01:08

Autonomous GPS? I like it, but seriously--this can't be feasible. It would seem to make a CMU unnecessary, and (to the best of my knowledge) GPS kits aren't precise enough for what FIRST needs (e.g. a matter of inches.)

--Petey

GPS is way too inaccurate--using commercial GPS (ie: a 3 satellite fix, the max allowed by the government), you would have a margin of error larger than the field itself.

Even with military GPS (5+ satellites), you'd still only be able to tell your position to about a meter or so.

Not to mention GPS is extremely cost prohibitive.

Greg Needel

25-12-2005, 01:24

aren't they trying the gps kits with the DARPA challenge and aren't the ending up sometimes miles off course?

true that residential gps is +/- 10 feet but differential gps is good down to a few inches... the only problem is GPS doesn't work inside, it is hard to get line of sight with satellites when there is a roof in the way. :-P

as for my opinion i like the idea of a robotic field element and small game elements piled up (golf balls) anyway we will find out soon enough.

buss

25-12-2005, 01:39

After thinking heavily about the clue, and reading through all 14 pages, I've come up with this:
http://liberdictus.com/2006-sky-high.jpg

What do you all think?

Cory

25-12-2005, 01:48

After thinking heavily about the clue, and reading through all 14 pages, I've come up with this:
http://liberdictus.com/2006-sky-high.jpg

What do you all think?

Interesting, but it looks far too simple.

Teams have all but mastered the art of picking up large exercise balls and depositing them in various containers.

sanddrag

25-12-2005, 01:50

true that residential gps is +/- 10 feet but differential gps is good down to a few inches... the only problem is GPS doesn't work inside, it is hard to get line of sight with satellites when there is a roof in the way. :-PNot true. In my mom's car, we've still gotten a GPS signal in a below ground parking garage.

Nuttyman54

25-12-2005, 02:26

Not true. In my mom's car, we've still gotten a GPS signal in a below ground parking garage.

yes, but they'd have to somehow ensure that the GPS signal will a) not get lost during a match and b) will work the same in all venues.. a hard challenge indeed.

sanddrag

25-12-2005, 02:34

I just got a wierd thought. What if the game pieces were hardhats?

Billfred

25-12-2005, 06:11

Going back to the five bots thing, I was talking with another FIRSTer (who can name himself if he feels like it) when he brought up how his team had been asked at a few competitions to play with a pre-announced DQ to give everyone the same number of matches.

I'm thinking a neutral robot might be the way to go. Or, since FIRST spent all that money for a shiny new six-team field last season, perhaps TWO neutral teams (which would work as one). I'm not sure how FIRST could be sure the teams would really do much (other than encourage teams to play the game the way it was written), but I'm sure there's some craziness they could cook up.

Tom Bottiglieri

25-12-2005, 09:09

GPS doesn't necessarily mean positioning using satellites....

(Think 111... Think 2003)

Alex Burman

25-12-2005, 09:23

What if the game pieces were hardhats?

Safety FIRST!

Jay H 237

25-12-2005, 09:43

The fact this thread is still currently active has brought me to one conclusion: Dave's game hint is much more important than the holidays.

The fact I posted this after reading this thread when I should be enjoying Christmas has also proved another conclusion: I'm no different than the rest of you! :D

Shlomi32

25-12-2005, 12:14

Nuttyman54

25-12-2005, 13:34

we just find out several things:
1) Montana is Joe Montana, his first winning session was at 1989, like the first FIRST game. he scored 34 sec before the end, 1989 is 17 years ago, meaning, 17*2=34.
we think that it will be like this:
a. 17 sec auto
b. normal play (don't know how much)
c. another 17 sec auto
2)shovel's show - maybe a hard game with a lots of tackling like Joe Montana did??...

wow, interesting....love the line of thought there...and who knows, i might just be correct

***
on another note...in regard to the "GPS" debate, i remember seeing a booth for a type of indoor differential GPS as ROBONEXUS 2004...i'm gonna see if i can dig up the info. I don't believe FIRST would do this due to the problems with cost and field setup (if i recall they're domes attached to the ceiling)

Greg Needel

25-12-2005, 13:42

GPS doesn't necessarily mean positioning using satellites....

(Think 111... Think 2003)

after thinking about this and receiving info in my PM in box i am going to have to agree here that my last statement was a little too Broad. There are lots of ways to find your location relative to the world, including but not limited to: GPS signal repeaters, digital compasses, beacons, and a ton more. After thinking about this i would say that it maybe likely to have something like this, similar to the IR beacon in 2004.

BTW it was Dave Lavery who pointed me in the right direction with inside GPS

JonJon

25-12-2005, 13:58

Hi,
In the word "tangling" the trigonometric function tan/tang is hidden.
Due to that fact, my opnion is that the arena will be, at least a part of it, a ramp.

Michelle Celio

25-12-2005, 14:42

five 'bots tangling with pasta

Ok so after a good nights rest and a couple hours of not thinking of this at all...I've come up with that maybe, the "Bots" doesnt refer to robots at all...maybe something like bottle? Maybe the robots will have to move five bottles that are tied together with some sort of string? but they wouldnt be organized just a lot of chaos.

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show

ok so in the past we've had robots that lift things with an arm, and push stuff around, so maybe this year we will have to like scoop something up and carry it around with something like This (http://ablehobby.com/7071%20SNOWPLOW.jpg) and since it's "obsessed" maybe the bottles will be covered in velcro and the scoop will have to have something on it that will hold the velcor and then another part to push it off, or maybe how ever many you can hold will be the given score?

and seeing Montana's green heights

I don't really have much of an idea for this one but it kinda slips in with the last bit , that they have to carry it around, maybe in order for them to count they have to be a certain hight or something like the scoop has to be able to go up in the air..or maybe with the whole dumping idea like i had before they will have to be put on an elevated surface?

Safarley2901

25-12-2005, 15:08

As Far as the 5 'bots thing is going, I am still supporting the 1984 reference that 2+2=5. But i think we've reached a point where all that really is left is speculation.
we more or less know the possible shapes of the game peice, if its linked to pasta. And we know that the terrain is going to be uneven.

Starke

25-12-2005, 15:45

the only thing that comes to mind right now is seeing Montana's heights. a return to hanging off a bar? maybe the bar is green, something that the camera could read? hmm, thats all i got for now.

Ryan Foley

25-12-2005, 16:22

Billfred

25-12-2005, 16:52

consider the following:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424697&postcount=1

Dave usually spends his vacation working on the game animation, perhaps this is a twisted image of a scene from the animation.

interesting blue line, especially the bend near the top of the page......
I'm willing to bet on it being, in whole or in part, from the 2006 field components. This image (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=362430&postcount=14) was composed from a de-goalified version of the 2005 field. (Note the human player placement and the end zone lines.)

While Dave's hobby may involve tormenting us, I don't think he invests that much time in it.

wojahoitz

25-12-2005, 17:01

I really hope he doesn't.

Dan Petrovic

25-12-2005, 17:18

I just don't have enough time to read all of the posts to see if my idea has been posted already.

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"

A shovel is also a spade. Which is a suit in cards.

So maybe, the game peice is flat and round like poker chips. We'll be manipulating giant poker chips.

It could also be like a giant poker game. We may never know!

Except we will in 13 days.

Speeder

25-12-2005, 18:03

How about ...

In a 1v1v1v1v1 match;

A scoring benefit obtained by teaming up with another 'bot for moving each game piece to goal. Maybe passing from 'bot to 'bot over an obstacle or to another level. And if you were prohibited from using the same team more than X times in a match, a good chance of a single team winning each match.

For autonomous at the end;

A target that is not revealed until the end, maybe by an overhead or elevated green light or flag to be seen by the camera. That would prevent early posturing before the autonomous period.

Bill Moore

25-12-2005, 19:45

I'm willing to bet on it being, in whole or in part, from the 2006 field components. This image (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=362430&postcount=14) was composed from a de-goalified version of the 2005 field. (Note the human player placement and the end zone lines.)
Hockey has a blue line to indicate off-sides. The person with the puck must cross over the line first, or he must pass it to a teammate before the teammate crosses the blue line.
Do we have an "offsides" line this year?

Pat McCarthy

25-12-2005, 19:53

Hockey has a blue line to indicate off-sides. The person with the puck must cross over the line first, or he must pass it to a teammate before the teammate crosses the blue line.
Do we have an "offsides" line this year?

In past years the lines in the animation were actually the tape lines on the carpet at the competitions. Last year for example the tape was used to indicate the boundry of the 'endzone' and the area in which the human player must stay.

Arkorobotics

25-12-2005, 19:55

Tape? Pasta???

3 fish??? why 3?

amos229

25-12-2005, 20:09

i dont think they will get rid of alliances just becuase of how greatly gracious professionalism is pushed. as for other things i think the five has nothing to do with # of robots but number of game pieces, it is outside the quotations of the hint remember. i also think that the pasta is refering to those pool noodles and shovle to a log loader.

Bill Moore

25-12-2005, 20:21

Tape? Pasta???

3 fish??? why 3?
For that matter, "Why an Angler fish?"

looneylin

25-12-2005, 20:24

i think by 5 they mean 433 n by pasta they mean *give them money!!!***
shovel's show = hug fest! *free hugs for everybody!!!
n seeing montana's green heights means a big pile of money!!! *to give to the 433 firebirds!!!!***

lol jk :D

Kelvin Ng

25-12-2005, 20:24

In response to Michelle's idea(don't know how to quote), maybe there are 5 big goals in the shape of bottles? as for tangling...maybe the game pieces are tied to the goals or something? =) my two cents

amos229

25-12-2005, 20:27

according to dave the fish picture is for the 2007 game to warn us of a water obstacle, however who can believe dave

amos229

25-12-2005, 20:34

"In response to Michelle's idea(don't know how to quote), maybe there are 5 big goals in the shape of bottles? as for tangling...maybe the game pieces are tied to the goals or something? =) my two cents"
i am definatly agreeing with five goals but going with the noodle idea i think it will be more like corrals. one thing no one has discussed is human player options. the shovel could be discussing some kind of challenging course representing a show for the shovel"human player" to put on

Nuttyman54

25-12-2005, 21:01

Nuttyman54

25-12-2005, 21:09

Tape? Pasta???

3 fish??? why 3?

actually, it looks like there're are four fish...boy, PETA's really gonna be on their case next year:p
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/trenevalex/4thfish.jpg

Adam Richards

25-12-2005, 21:10

actually, it looks like there're are four fish...or it might just be part of the robot....That's a banana.

amos229

25-12-2005, 21:12

looks more like a bannana, maybe representing a slippery surface like a couple years ago. the three fish are distracting the blue robot, maybe theres some distraction for the cmu cam

Nuttyman54

25-12-2005, 21:14

looks more like a bannana, maybe representing a slippery surface like a couple years ago

you mean you guys haven't seen pipe fish (http://www.reefpix.com.au/0943.jpg)?

Jon Jack

25-12-2005, 21:16

I was thinking today and came with the following thoughts:

What ever this years game is I think it will be a multi-demensional game. Triple Play, while fun to play, was pretty one demensional... You could either cap or place a tetra under a goal, or defend. From looking at the last two lines of the hint, I think that FIRST might be adding more to this years game in the means of scoring. Meaning that there will be more than two ways to score, and a lot more strategy involved.

When thinking about what the game could be I thinking about some of the things FIRST has to take into account when designing a game: How much money would the game cost? How easy would the game be to reset and run? How safe is it for teams, much less robots? How easy is it to transport? Can every venue handle such a game? How easy would it be for teams to replicate? How challenging is it for veteran teams?

In asking myself these questions, this is what I came up with:

When it comes to the field, I don't think that FIRST is going to dramatically change the field from the last couple years, simply because they have quite a bit of money invested in fields and those fields can be used for a wide variety of games. Team San Diego built a field that was pretty close to spec for this years Battle at the Border and it wouldn't be too hard to make the field wider or longer. I think the shape should stay the same.

I don't think that a multi-level field will be easy to transport, setup, reset, repair, take down and transport again. Plus it would be terribly hard for a team to replicate... Plus with fewer teams joining each year FIRST needs to make sure that fields are easy to replicate so teams can hold scrimmages and try to attract more schools to FIRST.

I think that there is a 95% chance that the game will not be water based... Something about electronics, a lot of water and people, I don't know. Personally I can't wait for the year FIRST has a water game. One of our engineering mentors and his dad (also a mentor) used to build boats :)

Alliances should stay, but there might be more teams per alliance. There should be two alliances with an even number of teams... Could you imagine what alliance selection would be like if alliances were uneven?

When it comes to the game object FIRST has to make sure that the object is challenging for veteran teams, but easy enough for rookie teams (we don't want to discourage them). Exersice balls probably aren't going to be used for a few years, footballs on the other hand would be a different story. FIRST has never used footballs, so just like tetras teams would have no prior experience manipulating footballs. What other box, circle or triangle shaped objects has first not used in the past?

amos229

25-12-2005, 21:26

as for a 3d field i am thinking a feild like stack attack with a slippery surface(bannanna in picture) and a ramp ("mountain") with green distractions for the cmu cam("green mountain" and fish in picture)

Michelle Celio

25-12-2005, 22:03

has anyone given any more thought to the Hula Hoops (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424034&postcount=21) pictured here? it occured to me that there is hoop-shaped pasta (http://www.hormel.com/templates/knowledge/knowledge.asp?id=553&catitemid=45&floater=disabled) which looks strikingly like hula hoops. I personally don't think they will be, but just thought i'd throw it out there

I've actually tought about it but tought that i'd be to obvious, i mean i think the point of the clue is to get us thinking and totally confused, i dont think that they would put that out in the open like that.

Ian Curtis

25-12-2005, 22:07

I did a Google image search for Butte and I found some that didn't have slanted sides, but rather near vertical sides in almost all cases. Therefore, I think that this year's game will not have inclined surfaces, but rather a platform (with the top being higher than three feet) with a bar at one, much like the steps in FLL's 2004 challenge, No Limits. The object? Reach the top of the platform before the match expires and you recieve extra points instead of a multiplier (or maybe a fixed multiplier like 2x or 3x) becuase frankly, TV audiences don't like doing multiplication (especially with decimals) when they could be adding.

I think that there is a 95% chance that the game will not be water based... Something about electronics, a lot of water and people, I don't know.

I'm all for water games, inflatable clownfish games, or whatever other kind of game FIRST could invent. However, the logistics of filling a 60x40 foot tank of water even a foot deep are astronomically nightmarish (that's a lot of buckets :D ). So a water game WILL NOT happen, unless regionals are moved to facilities with Olympic Sized swimming pool facilities (which we know they aren't this year).

skimoose

25-12-2005, 22:20

Well I've stayed away from thinking about this nearly all day. You know Christmas and all.

But, while coming down from a Christmas cookie induced sugar high, I realized you're all wrong. ;)

It's not Joe Montana the clue is refering to, it's actually refering to Frank Zappa's masterpiece; "I might be moving to Montana soon... Gonna be a dental floss tycoon" 5 bots tangling with dental floss! :ahh:

And the game name "Floss Boss" - king of the hill with dental floss!

And if you're buying what I'm shovelling, well that'll be quite a show! :eek:

Michelle Celio

25-12-2005, 22:26

So withing all my clue meaning searching and maybe some hints on CD...

I came across the following

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=383483

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38140

It has alot of game ideas so maybe ... just maybe it'll tell us something

like for example

At the beginning of each match, flat green squares (or possibly pressure pads, but they might be difficult to move around between matches) will be placed randomly on each alliance's side of the field for the robots to find using a vision system like this year's. If a robot successfully finds this square, that alliance is awarded two (or three, maybe more?) white circle game pieces, worth much more than the other pieces.

Who knows..

Arkorobotics

25-12-2005, 22:32

Arkorobotics

25-12-2005, 22:35

Has anyone thought of screwing around with the word order?

like:

five 'bots obsessed with a shovel's show
a game piece green heights
and seeing Montana's tangling with pasta

that would be an example.

Not only that check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Montana_state_flag.png

SHOVELS, WATER, MOUNTAINS on the flag.. hmmmm

Andrew Blair

25-12-2005, 22:43

Alrighty, I have faced the gauntlet of posts, prior, so the current melted condition of my brain may not be suitable to give this post substance. You are forwarned.

Assuming there is definently a raised platform, mountain, etc. on the field, I concentrate on the "Game piece obsessed with seeing heights" part of the clue. Now, the clue only says seeing heights, not always being on them. So I predict a return of the portable goal. You move the goal, filled with assorted game objects, onto the top of the platform, and you get the appropriate multiplier. Now the hard part is going to be moving a very heavy goal onto a raised part of the field....

Michelle Celio

25-12-2005, 22:44

I think we've all just about had it with this clue, and i think we need to listen to the "Quotable Adam" as he puts it...

Just a little skippit of our IM

Adam - 1341 (10:37:38 PM): hey, what's up?
Me (10:37:45 PM): thinking about you know what lol
Adam - 1341(10:37:54 PM): haha give it a rest
Adam - 1341(10:38:00 PM): you won't figure out the game
Adam - 1341 (10:38:02 PM): no one ever has

Nuttyman54

25-12-2005, 23:04

killerofkiller

25-12-2005, 23:35

Jon Jack

26-12-2005, 00:13

Last years discussion did get very close to money... As a result I think over the off-season (when they weren't designing the game) the GDC worked on their hint-making skills. Or this years hint has absolutly nothing to do with the game. Or... Dave and Lil'Lavery have switched things up a bit by telling/showing us things that are true, knowing that we wouldn't believe them due to years of mis-guidence and mis-direction... hmm... curling robots anyone? :ahh:

P.S. - What does FIRST do with old game pieces?

Petey

26-12-2005, 00:28

I did a Google image search for Butte and I found some that didn't have slanted sides, near vertical in almost all cases. Therefore, I think that this year's game will not have inclined surfaces, but rather a platform (with the top being higher than three feet) with a bar at one, much like the steps in FLL's 2004 challenge, No Limits. The object? Reach the top of the platform before the match expires and you recieve extra points instead of a multiplier (or maybe a fixed multiplier like 2x or 3x) becuase frankly, TV audiences don't like doing multiplication (especially with decimals) when they could be adding.

That does make an awful lot of sense. Buttes tend to be plateaus.

I'm all for water games, inflatable clownfish games, or whatever other kind of game FIRST could invent. However, the logistics of filling a 60x40 foot tank of water even a foot deep are astronomically nightmarish (that's a lot of buckets :D ). So a water game will not happen, unless regionals are moved to facilities with Olympic Sized swimming pool facilities (which we know they aren't this year).

Yeah. Can we end the water game speculation now?

It's not Joe Montana the clue is refering to, it's actually refering to Frank Zappa's masterpiece; "I might be moving to Montana soon... Gonna be a dental floss tycoon" 5 bots tangling with dental floss! :ahh:

By Jove...

Good as inference as I've heard from anyone.

I think we've all just about had it with this clue, and i think we need to listen to the "Quotable Adam" as he puts it...

Just a little skippit of our IM

Adam - 1341 (10:37:38 PM): hey, what's up?
Me (10:37:45 PM): thinking about you know what lol
Adam - 1341(10:37:54 PM): haha give it a rest
Adam - 1341(10:38:00 PM): you won't figure out the game
Adam - 1341 (10:38:02 PM): no one ever has

I disagree, "Quotable Adam." Last year, CDers figured out the basic tetrahedral part of the game, in that things would be pyramid shaped. We didn't figure out the tic-tac-toe thing, but that couldn't be expected.

--Petey

Nuttyman54

26-12-2005, 00:37

I disagree, "Quotable Adam." Last year, CDers figured out the basic tetrahedral part of the game, in that things would be pyramid shaped. We didn't figure out the tic-tac-toe thing, but that couldn't be expected.

--Petey

WAS there even a tic-tac-toe reference last year?...i mean other than the "Triple Play"...

Cyberguy34000

26-12-2005, 00:39

We've all had our theories, here's a very important point that people have missed so far...

"five 'bots tangling with pasta"

If you know anything about pasta it's over 60% WATER! So what does this mean for the field? Probibly a mix of water (roughly 60%) and "dry" (roughly 40%) land. Oh, Or even BETTER! When you cook pasta, you start off dry, but then boil it as you add water! So maybe the entire field starts off dry and then is gradually filled with water throughout the match! Imagine the new drive possibilities!!!

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta), here's a few other interesting facts about pasta.

Pasta is made either by extrusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrusion), where the ingredients are forced through holes in a plate known as a die (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die), or by lamination, in which dough is kneaded, folded, rolled to thickness, then cut by slitters.

Fresh Pasta cooks quickly and has a delicate taste, but spoils quickly due to its high water content.

Nuttyman54

26-12-2005, 00:42

oh man....that'll be hell for our drivetrain team
one problem though...how do we waterproof the motors? I'm not too concerned about the electronics, but you have to leave air holes in the motors, or the overheat..and if water gets in those...say hellooo to rust!

EddieMcD

26-12-2005, 00:44

I only skimmed over the thread, so I apologize if anything here has been mentioned before.

The first thing that came to mind when reading Montana was Joe Montana. It seems I'm not the only one who thinks this either. Kinda lends to the idea of footballs for the game piece.

Then it came to thought that shovel could refer to a shovel pass in football, lending even more to the "football gamepiece theory". It could also mean we could get points for passing forward.

My first thought for "green heights" was the Ramp N' Roll hill back in '95. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it green? And it had a field goal on it. Perhaps we're moving footballs over a field goal on a hill for points.

Then there's the "five 'bots tangling with pasta". Sadly, pasta has a very broad definition. I thought of Rigatoni first, thinking that maybe there could be tubes/tunnels we need to go through. Then, I thought about your standard spaghetti, thinking of needing to pull ropes to get somewhere (possibly a random bot on another side of something). There could be a rope net of some sort as well. Or, in a suggestion I saw elsewhere in this thread, the goal could be shaped like a shell. It's my opinion though that the "five 'bots" could be a red herring (okay, I just really can't think of anything other than a pentagon for something).

Eddie's official (IOW, semi-crazy, but fun) guess: The game pieces will be footballs (heck, I'm willing to bet some Dew on this) colored for each team. There will be a bunch of long tubes/tunnels leading to and from the start, ball stations with one ball of each teams' color (around the outer walls and around the field), and the center goal, which will be a giant shell (actually, I'm thinking a large bowl ~10ft in diameter for this) on top of a circular hill. The idea is the smaller bots could go through the tunnels for quicker transit, while bigger robots have to go a longer way around various obstacles if they can't fit. A point for a ball in the goal, another point if the ball was passed to another robot before scoring (assuming there's alliances, you can add a point for each robot it touches, even if it's just two robots passing back and forth and chaining up massive points). Perhaps sort of a three point line where if a ball is shot and made, it's worth double. Maybe add a special neutral ball that starts in the center goal, and which ever team keeps it in the ball station next to their drivers' station gets 10 points. Of course, you can't have a hill without a bonus attached to it, so any bots on the hill at the buzzer get 5 points. And I'll be adventurous and suggest a pentagon field for this. Because I can. :p

And my longshot: We'll be hurling footballs over water while the field is shaking (look up Huang He; apparently, that's where the oldest signs of any type of pasta are found). And if that's true, I so get bragging rights for the year. :D

In conclusion: okay, the only thing I can really guess with at least 90% confidence is that we're throwing footballs (a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show - and seeing Montana's...), and there will be a circular hill involved ("green heights"). I also wouldn't be too surprised if there was a field goal involved ("Montana's green heights", related to the '95 goal). Would've been easier if I just got right to that, huh?

Final thought: has anyone thought of the possibility of Football not being the American version?