2006 Motor Specs

[Xufer]

Who knows where the 2005 motor specs can be found ? last year they were in the manual this year i dont see them there.

Thanks.

[ryan_f]

it was explained in the webcast. 36 teams are making the specs and will be publishing them

[Elgin Clock]

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/frcdocs.htm#Section5

Under



Other Important Documents 2006 FIRST Robotics Competition Specification Sheets (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/2006specsheets.htm)


it was explained in the webcast. 36 teams are making the specs and will be publishing them
edit: Yes, that is correct., but those will be "real world applications" for FIRST as opposed to the data shown in my link above which is directly from the manufacturers of said parts.

[Veselin Kolev]

Fairly accurate motor speeds: (no load)

CIM: 3590 rmp
Larger CIM: 2180 rpm
Fischer Price: 10,280 rpm

Found using a precision strobe light with adjustable ticks per minute. Accuracy is about +- 0.5% on the motor speeds.

Have fun, all.

[Joe Johnson]

...
Found using a precision strobe light with adjustable ticks per minute. Accuracy is about +- 0.5% on the motor speeds.
...

Typical tolerances on motors are +/-10-15% and that doesn't include variations due to voltage.

I have never designed a motor/gearbox application where the performance of the motor had to be within .5%, certainly never in FIRST...

For what it is worth.

Joe J.

[Veselin Kolev]

Typical tolerances on motors are +/-10-15% and that doesn't include variations due to voltage.

I have never designed a motor/gearbox application where the performance of the motor had to be within .5%, certainly never in FIRST...

For what it is worth.

Joe J.

Joe, you are totally right.
However, what I mean is that the speed of the motors I got were measured to within 0.5% accuracy. There probably is a lot of fluctuation in the speeds of motors across the country, I was just letting people know that my equipment is quite precise.

Just to clarify

[Joe Johnson]

I have not had a chance to look at everything but from what I can tell so far these are the motors in order of wattage:






4 - Old CIM (340W)
2 - New CIM (270W)
2 - Fisher Price motors (170W)
1 - Bosch Motor (70W - based on old 12V specs of 35N-m stall & 75RPM Free)
2 - Globe Motors (50W)
2 - Denso Motors (25W)
1 - Mabuchi Motor (15W)
Am I missing any? I suppose there is the servos that are probably more powerful that 1W*, but they are harder to get continuous power out of since they don't automatically keep putting out work, they only do continous work if your program does some fancy footwork to keep the things moving (winding a mechanism or something I suppose is possible, but probably not worth the bother).

There is an very nice, rich set of motors for teams to pick from. Well done FIRST.

By the way, I am in the process of evaluation THESE MOTOR/GEARBOXES (http://banebots.com/osc/index.php?cPath=36_63) from BaneBots.com. For about $40 you can get gearboxes that the Fisher-Price and the Mabuchim motors will just bolt to. They come in a variety of ratios (5:1, 16:1, 20:1, 25:1, 64:1, 100:1, 256:1). The gearboxes have nice mounting points and long, easy to access (and support) D'ed shafts. And I just talked to them yesterday, they have 1000's in stock. Look for my recommendation or my non-recommendation early next week. I have no connection to these guys at all, I just found them on ebay a while back while looking for stuff for Robotic Amusements.

Joe J.



P.S. By the way, I have just found a table in this document (http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/other/FIRST_Guidelines,_Tips,_&_Good_Practices.pdf) that I believe is in error. It has the peak power of the FP motor over 300 Watts. This does not match the specs in the spec sheets or even the specs in the rest of the table in the same document. I believe my numbers are correct. Also, the Bosch and the Globe are listed as non-12V specs you have to scale the power ratings accordingly to get apples to apples comparisons.



*this message was written before I had corrected an error in converting g-cm's to N-m . I had the Mabuchi at 1W, when the motor is actually 15W or so. I have since went to the hitecrdc spec site (http://www.hitecrcd.com/homepage/product_fs.htm) for the 323HD servo. If I have not made another calc error, the servo motors are able to put out about .5W or so if you can load them at their 6V peak power point -- not exactly what you would call a real workhorse.

[Kit Gerhart]

Fairly accurate motor speeds: (no load)

CIM: 3590 rmp
Larger CIM: 2180 rpm
Fischer Price: 10,280 rpm

Found using a precision strobe light with adjustable ticks per minute. Accuracy is about +- 0.5% on the motor speeds.

Have fun, all.
Something's wrong here. The old CIM's have a no-load rpm of around 5300 rpm and the F/P are 20,000+.

[I'mwithstupid^]

Something's wrong here. The old CIM's have a no-load rpm of around 5300 rpm and the F/P are 20,000+.

could his motors have been worn down to those low rpms?

[Cory]

could his motors have been worn down to those low rpms?

Not if he was testing one he got out of the KOP.

[David Guzman]

Are the the specs pointed out by Elgin at

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/2006specsheets.htm

accurate and reliable enough to start designing.

Dave

[Tristan Lall]

Not if he was testing one he got out of the KOP.Which begs the question, are the old ones legal? Because they're (apparently) different. Same model number, though; would it have hurt to call it FR-801-002, if it were different?

Edit: I see the spec sheet for 2006 is unchanged; so someone should verify the speeds with their motors, old and new.

[Veselin Kolev]

I tested a 2004 CIM with the same method, and I get 5320 rpm, which sounds normal. You can actually hear the difference in rpms between the old and new motors.

[Larry Barello]

...
By the way, I am in the process of evaluation THESE MOTOR/GEARBOXES (http://banebots.com/osc/index.php?cPath=36_63) from BaneBots.com. For about $40 you can get gearboxes that the Fisher-Price and the Mabuchim motors will just bolt to. They come in a variety of ratios (5:1, 16:1, 20:1, 25:1, 64:1, 100:1, 256:1). The gearboxes have nice mounting points and long, easy to access (and support) D'ed shafts. And I just talked to them yesterday, they have 1000's in stock. Look for my recommendation or my non-recommendation early next week. I have no connection to these guys at all, I just found them on ebay a while back while looking for stuff for Robotic Amusements.


Joe, which of the 20:1 gearboxes would mate with the FP motor? Would I need to replace the pinion? Does Bane's pinion mate with the FP shaft?

Thanks!

[Joe Johnson]

Joe, which of the 20:1 gearboxes would mate with the FP motor? Would I need to replace the pinion? Does Bane's pinion mate with the FP shaft?

Thanks!

Go Here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41335)too see the answer

Good Luck,

Joe J.

[Schmitty!]

I measured the no-load speed and current of several of the motors we received in the 2006 KOP with an optical tachometer and Fluke DMM. I got the following results:
Small CIM #1 +12.00V: 5370 RPM 2.06Amps
Small CIM #1 -12.00V: 5412 RPM 2.00Amps

Small CIM #2 +12.00V: 5209 RPM 2.00Amps
Small CIM #2 -12.00V: 5374 RPM 2.13Amps

Large CIM #1 +12.00V: 2665 RPM 0.700Amps
Large CIM #1 -12.00V: 2738 RPM 0.790Amps

Large CIM #2 +12.00V: 2752 RPM 0.802Amps
Large CIM #2 -12.00V: 2686 RPM 0.690Amps

Fisher-Price #1 (without gearbox) +12.00V: 16224 RPM 1.06Amps
Fisher-Price #1 (without gearbox) -12.00V: 16579 RPM 1.03Amps

I am planning on grabbing the remaining no-load measurements tonight. So far the measurements I've taken fall in line with what I expected based on the datasheet values. I'm very happy to see that the Fisher-Price motor is a 12V motor!

Does anybody have a dynomometer test stand that can be used to capture the torque data? I can set up a test at stall to capture the stalled torque constant, but from previous experience it is more accurate to capture the torque constant while the motor is spinning under a known load. I don't have access to a dyno at my current job.

[Kevin Sevcik]

P.S. By the way, I have just found a table in this document (http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/other/FIRST_Guidelines,_Tips,_&_Good_Practices.pdf) that I believe is in error. It has the peak power of the FP motor over 300 Watts. This does not match the specs in the spec sheets or even the specs in the rest of the table in the same document. I believe my numbers are correct. Also, the Bosch and the Globe are listed as non-12V specs you have to scale the power ratings accordingly to get apples to apples comparisons.

Joe,

I just saw this error as well. Frustrating, as I was making a spreadsheet to figure out the windup time for a firing wheel and the FP + a shifting Dewalt was taking longer than I thought a 300W motor should. Looking at the spec sheets and the Tips doc, the erroneous Tips doc is using the Power Input figure of 300+W at Peak Power for the FPs. As opposed to the Power Output of 170W. And now back to the drawing board I go.....

Kevin

[Richard Wallace]

I measured the no-load speed and current of several of the motors we received in the 2006 KOP with an optical tachometer and Fluke DMM. I got the following results:
Small CIM #1 +12.00V: 5370 RPM 2.06Amps
Small CIM #1 -12.00V: 5412 RPM 2.00Amps

Small CIM #2 +12.00V: 5209 RPM 2.00Amps
Small CIM #2 -12.00V: 5374 RPM 2.13Amps

Large CIM #1 +12.00V: 2665 RPM 0.700Amps
Large CIM #1 -12.00V: 2738 RPM 0.790Amps

Large CIM #2 +12.00V: 2752 RPM 0.802Amps
Large CIM #2 -12.00V: 2686 RPM 0.690Amps

Fisher-Price #1 (without gearbox) +12.00V: 16224 RPM 1.06Amps
Fisher-Price #1 (without gearbox) -12.00V: 16579 RPM 1.03Amps

I am planning on grabbing the remaining no-load measurements tonight. So far the measurements I've taken fall in line with what I expected based on the datasheet values. I'm very happy to see that the Fisher-Price motor is a 12V motor!

Does anybody have a dynomometer test stand that can be used to capture the torque data? I can set up a test at stall to capture the stalled torque constant, but from previous experience it is more accurate to capture the torque constant while the motor is spinning under a known load. I don't have access to a dyno at my current job.I have a Magtrol HD-715 dynamometer and Sorenson DCS 20-150 switchmode power supply in my day-job lab. I did a quick 12V test of the large CIM motor this morning. With the motor coupled to the dyno and no load (apart from dyno friction) applied the speed was 2710 RPM and the current was 1.5 Ampere. Peak efficiency was about 85% at 43 oz-in, 2470 RPM drawing 7.7 Ampere. Peak shaft power was about 218 Watts at 193 oz-in, 1530 RPM drawing 33.5 Ampere. The maximum steady load that I applied was 283 oz-in, 750 RPM drawing 51 Ampere. I did take the loading up to about 350 oz-in momentarily without stalling the motor, but did not leave it there long enough to record steady data.

[starbot]

What size timing belt pulley is on the larger CIM in the kit?

[Paul Copioli]

I will shortly post my annual Fisher-Price motor thread. I will discuss three motors in particular: small CIM, big CIM, and Fisher-Price. I can tell you this right now: FIRST has done their homework this year.

I have the information regarding the big CIM and it's interfaces, but I have to scan it in. It discusses what size and type of pulley is on the motor shaft (among other things).

-Paul

[Paul Copioli]

Here are the specifics of the pulley on the output pinion of the large CIM motor:

Gates Rubber Co., 16 groove, 3mm pitch Powergrip GT, 15mm wide.

This is from the same Fisher-Price spec sheet that the motor curve FIRST provided came from. I do not know why they did not provide both sheets. If IFI tells me it is O.K., then I will just supply the sheet (there is nothing else in the data sheet of any importance that the motor curve does not provide).

Also, I verified the other fisher-Price motor specifications (the ones with the plastic gearboxes):

Both motor graphs that FIRST has provided are the EXACT motor curves provided by Johnson Electric. I am very impressed that they provided the correct sheets this year. I am using the Fisher-Price motors and using the curves FIRST provided as they are correct.

The small CIM motor is identical to the ones provided in the kit last year. There are no changes at all. The same specifications apply and the kit gearbox works the exact same way it did last year. If you want to run it with 4 motors, you must purchase two this year.

-Paul

[Madison]

Here are the specifics of the pulley on the output pinion of the large CIM motor:

Gates Rubber Co., 16 groove, 3mm pitch Powergrip GT, 15mm wide.

Paul,

Browsing through McMaster-Carr, it seems that they're listing 'Power Grip GT' belts as having a 5mm pitch. They do not carry any 3 mm pitch belting at all.

Is this simply because McMaster-Carr doesn't have it, or because you made a typo? :)

[Paul Copioli]

M.,

I am positive it is 3mm pitch. The spec from Fisher-Price says 3mm and I measured it to be 3mm. Go to www.gates.com to look up all types of belts.

Powergrip GT2 is the belting and it comes in 2, 3 and 5mm pitches (among others). The 15 mm wide belt seems to be pretty standard.

-Paul

[Madison]

M.,

I am positive it is 3mm pitch. The spec from Fisher-Price says 3mm and I measured it to be 3mm. Go to www.gates.com to look up all types of belts.

Powergrip GT2 is the belting and it comes in 2, 3 and 5mm pitches (among others). The 15 mm wide belt seems to be pretty standard.

-Paul

Thanks, Paul. I expected that it was simply that McMaster didn't carry it. Gates, even, has many local distributors for their product, so I'm better off with that than McMaster anyway.

[Spencer295]

I have a Magtrol HD-715 dynamometer and Sorenson DCS 20-150 switchmode power supply in my day-job lab. I did a quick 12V test of the large CIM motor this morning. With the motor coupled to the dyno and no load (apart from dyno friction) applied the speed was 2710 RPM and the current was 1.5 Ampere. Peak efficiency was about 85% at 43 oz-in, 2470 RPM drawing 7.7 Ampere. Peak shaft power was about 218 Watts at 193 oz-in, 1530 RPM drawing 33.5 Ampere. The maximum steady load that I applied was 283 oz-in, 750 RPM drawing 51 Ampere. I did take the loading up to about 350 oz-in momentarily without stalling the motor, but did not leave it there long enough to record steady data.

Richard because your test results vary so drastically from the specs on previous posts on motor wattage, would you mind testing the old cim motors on your dyno so I can make an accurate comparison.

[Hutch]

Uhm, so I guess this begs the question, where are those 36 teams? It's been a week now and I haven't seen any specs posted by anyone except other people who decided to do it with the tools they have at work or whatever...

[Goldeye]

Are the specs for the Bosch Van Door available anywhere? I read that these are different from earlier years and can't find any info for new ones.

[petek]

Are the specs for the Bosch Van Door available anywhere? I read that these are different from earlier years and can't find any info for new ones.Basic specs on all the motors are in
FIRST Guidelines, Tips & Good Practices (http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/other/FIRST_Guidelines,_Tips,_&_Good_Practices_Rev_B.pdf). Glad I went looking for this because FIRST posted a new revision.

[Nathan B.]

We used last years manual, becasue basicly there the same thing.

[Richard Wallace]

Richard because your test results vary so drastically from the specs on previous posts on motor wattage, would you mind testing the old cim motors on your dyno so I can make an accurate comparison.I don't have an old CIM motor available to test right now. Will try to get one later this week.

[Price Vetter]

I have searched for this years fischer price motor's (not the big CIMs) pitches and can't find them. Does anybody know what it is?

Also measuring motors with strobes is VERY subject to aliasing.

[billbo911]

Basic specs on all the motors are in
FIRST Guidelines, Tips & Good Practices (http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/other/FIRST_Guidelines,_Tips,_&_Good_Practices_Rev_B.pdf). Glad I went looking for this because FIRST posted a new revision.
Basic specs is correct, mostly power, torque, no load RPM and current draw. What I am looking for on the van door motor is the mounting hole layout and thread size and pitch. I know the output shaft is 11mm in diameter, this leads me to believe the mounting holes are metric as well.

[petek]

Basic specs is correct, mostly power, torque, no load RPM and current draw. What I am looking for on the van door motor is the mounting hole layout and thread size and pitch. I know the output shaft is 11mm in diameter, this leads me to believe the mounting holes are metric as well.
I don't think I've seen a manufacturer's dimensioned drawing of this motor anywhere but if you go to FIRSTCADLibrary (http://www.firstcadlibrary.com/), Ed has it modeled on the Motors page. He doesn't have the threads spec'ed, and appears to have used inch units, but at least the hole circle is there. I believe you're correct about the metric mounting holes (M6?), anyway.

[Joe Johnson]

I don't think I've seen a manufacturer's dimensioned drawing of this motor anywhere but if you go to FIRSTCADLibrary (http://www.firstcadlibrary.com/), Ed has it modeled on the Motors page. He doesn't have the threads spec'ed, and appears to have used inch units, but at least the hole circle is there. I believe you're correct about the metric mounting holes (M6?), anyway.

There is no question mthat the ounting holes are M6. I am 100% certain on this.

Also, I am 99% that the mounting pattern is the same as it has been for every van door motor that has been in the FIRST kit (i.e. the bolt circle radius is the same).

Joe J.

[Paul Copioli]

Joe is correct, the mounting pattern is the same as the last few years. The screws are M6.

[Richard Wallace]

Richard because your test results vary so drastically from the specs on previous posts on motor wattage, would you mind testing the old cim motors on your dyno so I can make an accurate comparison.I finally got my hands on an old CIM motor, to measure speed and current vs. torque on my dynamometer. [N.B.: had to order some spares in case the team burns one up testing.]

Your suspicion that my measurements are low compared with published specs is correct: I measured peak power about 270 Watts (c.f. 337 published) at about 2700 RPM, drawing 50 Amperes.

There are several reasons my measurements might be low, but accurate dynamometer torque calibration is not one of them. The most likely (IMO) reasons are (1) I let the terminal voltage drop off at higher current draw due to lead resistance, about 5 ft. of 10 qmm (~7 AWG) for each lead from the supply terminals to the motor lead connection point, and (2) I let the motor get hot while taking readings. Imperfect shaft alignment and residual drag torque in the magnetic brake probably amount to about 25 Watts.

It has been my experience that the above loss mechanisms are also present, to about the same degree, in drivetrains that I have built for FRC robots.

[Stevo]

Ok, so I know that the spec sheets are out there on both CIM motors (FR801-005 and -001), but I cant seem to find how much current the FR801-005 pulls under NORMAL load. I saw somewhere the specs for free load and stall, but no NORMAL load. If anyone out there could shed some light on this, it would be much appreciated.

[Madison]

Normal is a relative term. The current draw varies between the free current value and stall current value as load is applied. If you have some idea of what load you're applying to the motor, you can determine the current draw using the information provided in the spec. sheets. If you don't know the load, but can measure the shaft speed (e.g., RPM), you can work backward to find the load as well.

[Loki1989]

how fast will the wheels go with 120 pounds on them if the gear boxes have all four motors in them and the wheels have a 25 in circumfrence

[Madison]

Closing this in preparation for the new season.