Speed vs. Power [Archive]

dude__hi

10-01-2006, 15:43

This year's game will demand a robot to have speed in order to be quick enough to shoot the balls before getting hit by opponents.

This also means that robots will have to be robust enough to hold their own.

If you had to choose one, power or speed?

henryBsick

10-01-2006, 15:47

Where is the "both" option?

Shu Song

10-01-2006, 15:49

Where is the "both" option?

Was wondering that myself. Our team has in the past always chosen power when we can't have both. We like to dominate the playing field with unmatched pushing power. :cool:

Aburame Shino

10-01-2006, 15:55

I'd personally want to go both. You want your robot to be fast enough where it can get around the field quickly, yet you don't want it being too weak or it's going to get shoved around too easily by the other team.

Bharat Nain

10-01-2006, 15:58

Speed. You don't need power if you have are team 25. All you need is... oops can't reveal robot plans ;)

Rick TYler

10-01-2006, 16:12

oops can't reveal robot plans ;)

Why not? Seriously.

BRosser314

10-01-2006, 16:17

In the past years we have had a robot that was fast enough yet still was abled to put up a fight with around 75% of the competition at the regionals we attended. But in all games if u have speed u dont always need power.

For instance if you are on your ramp towards the end of the match and an opponent is trying to push you off he will first have to make his way up the platform then get behind you to push you off. If you have a fast robot then you will not have to worry about people getting behind a pushing, plus at the top you will be at a beter position to push them off or even tip.

And on the ground you are having a camera track the green light so you dont have to always be standing in one spot if you figure out the physics behind moving while shooting, and use it towards your advantage so you could sort of drive around in a circle.

KORN_lover_2007

10-01-2006, 16:21

I would definitely want to choose both, but if I was forced to choose it would probably be speed. I don't know, having both would probably be a lot easier, and my child development class has voted for power (the class I'm in at the moment) but I think I would choose speed. Just because.

sanddrag

10-01-2006, 16:29

My vote goes for maneuverability.

JVN

10-01-2006, 16:34

Speed. You don't need power if you are team 25. All you need is...

momentum?

Erics626

10-01-2006, 16:40

My vote goes for maneuverability.
I second that. It could be key to be able to quickly get out of the way of a team that is trying to defend you.

Peter Matteson

10-01-2006, 16:41

How about both. This is why so many teams now have multi-motor two speed gearboxes. One high speed, and one high power.

Erics626

10-01-2006, 16:43

I think this is just a hypothetical situation in which you can only choose one, not necessarily a real world choice.

Ryan M.

10-01-2006, 17:06

Come on people... both? :) The whole point of the choice is that, technically, you can't truly have optimal speed and optimal power... Which do you feel is more important to the game?

Heretic121

10-01-2006, 17:14

momentum?
nope... cause korei learned at BE this year that momentum doesnt always work out for ya and some times gets ya flipped over right korei!!??! :D

henryBsick

10-01-2006, 17:30

Come on people... both? :) The whole point of the choice is that, technically, you can't truly have optimal speed and optimal power... Which do you feel is more important to the game?
No, I have most definitely driven a robot that had optimal speed and optimal power.

Joe Johnson

10-01-2006, 17:33

This is a silly poll (imho)

One might as well ask which is more important Length or Area?

Perhaps you mean Speed or Torque? At least then you'd be asking the question akin to Length Vs. Width.

I don't get me started about ways to make this a false choice (by adding another motor, I mean, more Area).

Sloppy thinking leads to sloppy designs...

Joe J.

Matt Adams

10-01-2006, 17:46

To briefly restate Dr. Joe's thoughts:

Power = Speed * Torque

Area = Length * Width

You can't have more speed without having more power.

I think the question you are asking is about:

Pushing Force vs. Speed (which is essentialy Torque vs. Speed)

Matt

CyberCheetah

10-01-2006, 18:26

if your shooting
power is more important than speed because
because you need a lot of power to shoot even 1 ball

Andrew Blair

10-01-2006, 19:00

Come on people... both? :) The whole point of the choice is that, technically, you can't truly have optimal speed and optimal power... Which do you feel is more important to the game?

CVT anyone?

RogerR

10-01-2006, 19:10

as Dr. Joe and Matt already posted, Power=speed*torque. thats why i picked power; i can have my cake, and eat it too.

s_forbes

10-01-2006, 21:51

If we're talking speed vs torque, I would normally side with the torque. The robot is easier to control and you win pushing battles.

In this game though, there is a rather large unobstructed field. If you have the speed, you can outrun the heavier, pushing robots.

This year I think our team is going to try putting some transmissions in to get the best of both speed and torque. This may be a bad idea, but I think we may be able to pull it off. Even if we are a rookie team...

Tom Bottiglieri

10-01-2006, 21:59

CVT anyone?
You must remember these are 130 pound robots running off DC motors, not a car. There is plenty of headroom motor-wise in that kit to push other bots around, at a high rate of speed. (hence, power)

Paul Copioli

10-01-2006, 22:01

Joe and Matt beat me to it,but I will chime in anyway.

The choice should be speed or torque. Power is fixed.

Anyone who has attended my presentation (with Ken Patton) knows my canned phrase: "Power is absolute!!!"

A given motor (or set of motors) has a fixed maximum power (velocity * torque), even if you shift. When you shift gears you are actively trading off speed and torque but your power is fixed. The only way to add power is to add motor. For this reason, many teams have six motors (or 4).

I do have a prediction, though: this year teams will get carried away with powerful drive trains that will not make much difference in the game. High shooters unite!!!

-Paul

Andrew Blair

10-01-2006, 22:05

You must remember these are 130 pound robots running off DC motors, not a car. There is plenty of headroom motor-wise in that kit to push other bots around, at a high rate of speed. (hence, power)

I wasn't saying that there wasn't enough motor power in the kit to drive with plenty of pushing power and speed (You can, with the Kitgearbox, gear it so it's almost uncontrollable, yet still slips th wheels) but that that ideally, a cvt would provide the optimum speed and torque range. And, it can be done, though I am not brave enough to try...
http://firstrobotics.uwaterloo.ca/resources/galleries/gearboxes/thumbs/gearboxes81.jpg

Ianworld

10-01-2006, 23:07

That CVT is the work of the martians. I saw it first two years ago at nationals. Very impressive little transmission but I think they had trouble converting it into something that fit the weight and space restrictions of a FIRST robot, at least a CVT in that format.

But after just voting the Poll is within a percent of being dead even. I think that says something. This game needs both power and speed. Speed will help you beat other teams to scoring positions and perhaps maneauver into scoring positions. Power will let you control the ramp, move robots that are trying to shoot around and probably be better at defense. As always however the best option is both as many people have pointed out. Two speed or more gearboxes will be plentiful this year and give the teams big advantages.

Salik Syed

11-01-2006, 20:55

we're gonna go two speeds. but I actually don't think speed will play that much into it... with the offense/ defense switching off i don't think there will be that much flying across one end of the field to the other. there will be most activity near the ends of the field where the robots will push each other.

Veselin Kolev

12-01-2006, 01:25

Power or speed?

I'll do... I'll do... both!

Superfast speeds to collect balls, superslow speeds to push robots out of our way. Can be quite useful at moments. But yea, I'm guessing a lot of teams will do 2 speed this year, and get the best of both worlds.

Matt Torrisi

12-01-2006, 12:31

both

we had a 3 speed transmission, 3rd top get to the action, 1st to push around. 2nd for everything else

personally i find speed useless, though this years periods system may change my opinion. our defense and power got us to atlanta, so im gonna have to vote for it.

Not2B

12-01-2006, 13:01

Dr. Joe got to it first... but I have to chime in anyway...

I want more power than speed, because then I can DECIDE if I want to use the extra power for speed or torque. :D

spamified88

18-01-2006, 21:51

It's like asking which would you need if you could only have one: food or water. You need both. You have to make a trade off at some point. Personally I would say speed because my team's previous robots were kind of pokey.

FreakyAntelope

18-01-2006, 22:45

It's like asking which would you need if you could only have one: food or water.

Well, *clearly* the answer is water... ;)

Jonathan Norris

18-01-2006, 23:03

This is really a game which demands the best of both worlds that is why our team is going with a 2 speed gearbox.

Speed is going to be very important for many shooting robots which cannot herd/pick balls off field, because they have to travel 50+ feet to reload on balls. If you are an offensive robot it is very important.

While at the same time torque (power) is going to be very important for both offense and defense. You want to have sufficient torque be able to push other robot around during your defensive period and defend against defending robots while on offense. Having a drive system with the best of both will be a large advantage in this years game. :yikes:

Taylor

19-01-2006, 10:19

I agree - a similar question to be posed would be, "Is your robot offensive or defensive?" Offense favors speed (especially if you don't have a collection system and have to run back to the HP for balls), defense favors power, and it's all subject to the particular team, strategy, and alliance.
They say offense wins games and defense wins championships. Well, we don't have the $$ for Hotlanta, so we'll go fast and have fun (and leave a mangled corpse).
One more point - speed begs mobility. The most important part of a car is the brakes. If you can't control it, speed is nothing but trouble.