View Full Version : can the game flag be used?
the game flag can be mounted on top of the 60" robot. can we use this flag to defend against balls in the center goal? i mean the flag can extend up to the hoop so can we block the hoop with the flag?
also is there a limit on where we can put the flag?
Billfred
14-01-2006, 20:47
From the manual (darn good reading):
<R13> Robots must use one of the two colored bicycle flags provided at the event queuing location to display
their alliance color (red or blue). Each robot must include a 12 inch long, 1/2” ID PVC tube, capped at the
bottom, permanently mounted on the robot such that when a 3 foot long, 1/4 inch diameter flagpole is inserted
the top of the flagpole is no higher than 6 feet from the ground and the top of the flagpole is at least 12 inches
higher than any other point on the robot (+/- 1/2 inch). The flagpole must be mounted such that it starts the
match, and remains, approximately vertical. The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not
articulated or actuated.
the robot limit is 60" and the flagpole top must be 72"?
henryBsick
14-01-2006, 21:47
the robot limit is 60" and the flagpole top must be 72"?
Its right there in the rule that Billfred posted. If you have a robot that is in-fact 60" tall then yes, the top of your flag must be 72" from the ground. If your robot is not 60" tall then your flag may be at any height as long as it is under 72" from the ground and over 12" (+/- 1/2")from the highest point on your robot.
can we use this flag to defend against balls in the center goal? i mean the flag can extend up to the hoop so can we block the hoop with the flag?No. You can't use anything over 5 ft. to block. Doing so is a 5pt penalty per occurrence or shot blocked, whicheveer is greater.
sanddrag
15-01-2006, 00:47
No. You can't use anything over 5 ft. to block. Doing so is a 5pt penalty per occurrence or shot blocked, whicheveer is greater.
Can you cite a rule on that please?
Can you cite a rule on that please?
<G16> Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match. Each violation shall result in a penalty of 5 points per occurrence or 5 points per ball shot or ball blocked during the occurrence, whichever is greater. ROBOTs designed to violate this rule are not allowed. For example, a ROBOT that extends a blocking device in front of the center goal will be disqualified....The one exception to the height restriction is provided in rule <R13> (flag rule).
At least, that's how my team interprets it. And of course, better safe than sorry, seeing as if the refs decide the flag is extenden in front of the center goal it's a DQ.
Can you cite a rule on that please?
<G16> Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE
PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match. Each violation shall result in a penalty
of 5 points per occurrence or 5 points per ball shot or ball blocked during the occurrence, whichever is
greater.The one
exception to the height restriction is provided in rule <R13> (flag rule).
So, my interpretation of this is that you will not receive a penalty for being over 60" so long as it's just the flag, however, if the flag blocks a shot, it's questionable as to whether or not you'd be penalized.
At any rate, the flag is what, a 1/4" stick or something? 3/8"? That's not exactly a large target. You'd have to have incredible precision to line the flag up properly to perfectly intercept the trajectory of an opponent's ball.
At any rate, the flag is what, a 1/4" stick or something? 3/8"? That's not exactly a large target. You'd have to have incredible precision to line the flag up properly to perfectly intercept the trajectory of an opponent's ball. 1/4" OD PVC with a bycycle flag on top. (<R13> has the details on mounting tube, placement, and all the other annoying little details.)
A quick question on R13:
the last line reads:
The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not
articulated or actuated.
Is this to mean that the flag must be mounted on the base of the robot? Or can we mount it to our ball turret that is going to rotate around as long as the receptacle itself is staticly mounted?
SoftwareBug2.0
15-01-2006, 04:22
A quick question on R13:
the last line reads:
The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not
articulated or actuated.
Is this to mean that the flag must be mounted on the base of the robot? Or can we mount it to our ball turret that is going to rotate around as long as the receptacle itself is staticly mounted?
I would think that this would not be allowed, which is unfortunate because that makes it much more difficult to have a 360 degree rotating turret. You'd have to make it pivot around the flag pole.
tkwetzel
15-01-2006, 14:01
I would think that this would not be allowed, which is unfortunate because that makes it much more difficult to have a 360 degree rotating turret. You'd have to make it pivot around the flag pole.
A rotating turret will most likely not extend to the corners of the legal size of the robot because most people will have it on a circular rotating base. So you could put the flag in the corner of the robot. This would cause your launcher to have a small range in which it could not be used due to the flag being in the way.
With the flag being as small as it is. The chances of blocking or even interfering with a shot on the high goal is minimal, so if it does happen it will most likely be by accident, so hopefully the refs will not penalize. This is at least my interpretation.
Matt Krass
15-01-2006, 15:49
I'm curious about that. Let's say this:
Robot A is on offense, it lines up with the goal and pops off a ball at 12m/s or so at the goal, in the middle of its perfect arc a defensive robot drives by, with no intent to block at all, but the ball hits the flag, do they get a penalty? What if there's obvious intent to block? What if it's a robot from their alliance?
Could be interesting...
I really dont think that a ball blocked by a flag will be called for a penalty. If it happens more than once or twice, maybe they'll make a rule about it, but I think that it won't really happen much.
Lil' Lavery
15-01-2006, 17:51
I highly doubt the flag pole will be capable of blocking a shot. Bicycle flags are quite weak and flexible, and I doubt that they will be able to severly alter a shot. And if they could, Id be more worried about my own flag blocking my shot than someone elses (if you have a turret system, or place it in a really bad spot).
Arkorobotics
15-01-2006, 18:20
One stick can't take all the pressure, but a bundle can..
what i meant was parking the robot in front of the center goal for defense against the balls. although i agree that it is very unethical i think of one thing:
a center block is good defense
for this reason i thought it would be cool
Lil' Lavery
15-01-2006, 19:05
I understood what you meant, but I highly doubt it would work. The flag poles are small and flexible enough that a ball would just power right through them.
lukevanoort
15-01-2006, 19:42
I don't know if this'll matter much. Seeing this thread FIRST might add a rule revision which bans intentional center goal blocking with the flag.
A rotating turret will most likely not extend to the corners of the legal size of the robot because most people will have it on a circular rotating base. So you could put the flag in the corner of the robot. This would cause your launcher to have a small range in which it could not be used due to the flag being in the way.
We were already planning that, the problem comes in where we are looking at our launcher being roughly 4' feet high, so we have to rase our flag mount up atleast 2 feet to make the top of the flag clear the top of our bot. Not hard, just alot of extra stuff for a flag.
You need to read ALL the rules COMPLETELY to understand them.
Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match. Each violation shall result in a penalty of 5 points per occurrence or 5 points per ball shot or ball blocked during the occurrence, whichever is greater. ROBOTs designed to violate this rule are not allowed. For example, a ROBOT that extends a blocking device in front of the center goal will be disqualified. Transient conditions that may cause a diagonal dimension of the robot to momentarily exceed the 60” height restriction – such as during a tipover or when climbing onto the ALLIANCE PLATFORM – are not subject to this rule. The one exception to the height restriction is provided in rule <R13> (flag rule).
Empahsis mine. Since <R13> provides the exception, lets go take a look!
Robots must use one of the two colored bicycle flags provided at the event queuing location to display their alliance color (red or blue). Each robot must include a 12 inch long, 1/2” ID PVC tube, capped at the bottom, permanently mounted on the robot such that when a 3 foot long, 1/4 inch diameter flagpole is inserted the top of the flagpole is no higher than 6 feet from the ground and the top of the flagpole is at least 12 inches higher than any other point on the robot (+/- 1/2 inch). The flagpole must be mounted such that it starts the match, and remains, approximately vertical. The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not articulated or actuated.
Ah ha! The flagpole receptacle needs to be mounted such that the flag is 12" taller then the rest of the robot, but less than 6 feet from the ground. So if you make a 5 foot tall robot, the flag MUST be mounted so that the top of the flagpole is at 6 feet. Since the flag is exempt from the height rule, you will not be penalized for it being above 6 feet. No penalty, block away!
Wetzel
You need to read ALL the rules COMPLETELY to understand them.
Empahsis mine. Since <R13> provides the exception, lets go take a look!
Ah ha! The flagpole receptacle needs to be mounted such that the flag is 12" taller then the rest of the robot, but less than 6 feet from the ground. So if you make a 5 foot tall robot, the flag MUST be mounted so that the top of the flagpole is at 6 feet. Since the flag is exempt from the height rule, you will not be penalized for it being above 6 feet. No penalty, block away!
Wetzel
Wetzel, while the rules you've quoted definitely show that you won't be penalized for your flag going over 5 feet (something we've already known), they don't help any to determine whether or not you receive a penalty for blocking balls with it (something I still think is pure fantasy, and not even worth the time everyone has spent here thinking about it).
If people are actually worried about this, it obviously needs to be submitted to the Q&A forums to receive a definitive answer.
I'm with Wetzel. But it will be impossible to park in front of the goal and block though. You would need to be at the front of the platform to make any impact.
Wetzel, while the rules you've quoted definitely show that you won't be penalized for your flag going over 5 feet (something we've already known), they don't help any to determine whether or not you receive a penalty for blocking balls with it (something I still think is pure fantasy, and not even worth the time everyone has spent here thinking about it).
Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match. Each violation shall result in a penalty of 5 points per occurrence or 5 points per ball shot or ball blocked during the occurrence, whichever is greater.
Cory, you only get penalized for blocking a ball if you are violating the height rule. Since we both agree that the flag does not violate the height rule, we should agree that you won't be penalized for something that doesn't violate a rule.
Wetzel
so in other words no you probably wont get penalized for the game flag blocking a ball.
however the flag probably wont do much as it would snap from the pressure
A couple things to consider...
gondorf, you underestimate PVC's bendability. It won't break with a ball hitting it. If it does, someone is probably penalized for exceeding the muzzle velocity.
Wetzel, <G16> says that any robot extending a blocking device (over 5 ft tall) in front of the center goal will be DQ'd. Plain enough, except that the flag is an exception to the height limit. So, the only question here is: Is the flag a blocking device? I predict that Q&A will have to think this over for a while after someone submits the question. (And by the way, you will be penalized if the top of the flag is over 6 feet from the floor, according to the rules.)
its hard to believe that any of you have been to a competition before.!
you have a 1/4 inch rod and a 7 inch ball. 5 robots tangling with each other. drivers with so much adrenalin that they can barely hold still. and you think that a robot can be positioned to block a 30 inch wide goal.!!
statistically this is a very small event. if you base strategy on this event, you will lose quickly.
jerry w
Excelsior
16-01-2006, 17:27
I wish they just stuck to LEDs. This whole flag thing is confusing.
Lil' Lavery
16-01-2006, 17:33
I wish they just stuck to LEDs. This whole flag thing is confusing.
The LEDs were hard to see, and some teams didn't even hook them up or lacked the "back-up battery" to power them. I personally liked the old lights we used, but those drew alot of power.
The LEDs were hard to see, and some teams didn't even hook them up or lacked the "back-up battery" to power them. I personally liked the old lights we used, but those drew alot of power.
I loved the flashing spinner lights, those were great, but the shields on them also broke very easily whenever hit by any scoring object pretty much. In 03 after the LI regional was done on Friday they opened up the mesh ramp and had people crawl under it to vacuum and clean out the debris. It was fun to collect bits and pieces of light shield, I think I came close to being able to make an entire shield just out of parts that fell below the grates.
Nuttyman54
17-01-2006, 02:46
I think that it's good for FIRST to move away from the lights, however cool they may be, just from a specator standpoint. From way up in the bleachers, it can take a good 3 seconds to determine which robot is on which team. In a match that lasts 2:10, that's a large chunk of time. They're also hard to see in peripheral vision.
I also believe, however, that the bicycle flags aren't the best method. The restricted mounting procedure means a lot of teams will have problems incorportating it into their design. There's probably a better way, but I sure haven't of it....
Joe Ross
23-01-2006, 12:12
Here is the official answer from FIRST Q/A about using the game flag to block balls: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=344
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