Ramming and Hitting

[Angelfury126]

I'm wondering how aggressive teams can be on the field? Can you ram other teams from across the field or does that only apply to the ramp?
How bad can a robot hit or ram another robot until officials intervene?
I'm under the assumption that its a free for all and that you can go out and just punish the other robots on the field.

[KenWittlief]

when you get your robot done, and you have put 6 weeks of your life into it, and you know its strengths and weaknesses

then think about how hard you will want another team ramming your bot?

and you will have your answer.

aggressive play is only allowed to gain a decisive field position or scoring position. Ramming or bashing a robot to disable it, or to knock it over will get your team disqualified.

[Greg Perkins]

I'm wondering how aggressive teams can be on the field? Can you ram other teams from across the field or does that only apply to the ramp?
How bad can a robot hit or ram another robot until officials intervene?
I'm under the assumption that its a free for all and that you can go out and just punish the other robots on the field.


In FIRST we don't use force to disable a robot...You can push, shove, and "hit" a robot; but intentionally ramming a robot from across the field is grounds for DQ. I've been a ref, and have had to make those calls...trust me, ramming a robot to defend a goal is one thing, but to ram them just to ram them is uncalled for. Use your best judgement, and always remember..."Gracious Professionalism" (Don't do something to another robot, unless you want it done to yourself)

[Excelsior]

FIRST is more of a sport than, say, Battlebots. Some contact is allowed, but within reason. Think basketball or something.

[kborer22]

you will be warned once, and if your lucky twice, but this year especially since there are no field elements to slow your down there will be A LOT of ramming penalties. And you will be frowned upon for malicious ramming...

[Kevin Sevcik]

To clarify, the Rules specifically state that ramming with a head start from across the field is illegal. As are strategies aimed solely at the destruction or disablement of other robots. As Ken says, pushing and very limited ramming are allowed solely to gain a positional advantage on the field. You must be trying to get somewhere or keep someone from getting somewhere, not attacking their robot. The only leeway given on the ramp is with respect to pinning.

Even a cursory glance at the rules makes this clear, so I'm uncertain where you got the impression that this is a "free-for-all".

[KenWittlief]

remember..."Gracious Professionalism" (Don't do something to another robot, unless you want it done to yourself) :ahh:

Owch! Ive never seen a robot jump over the railing and start ramming an opposing driver, but I guess it could happen! :^)

(the golden rule of robotics for the 21st century: Do unto robots as you would have them do unto you)

[BRosser314]

Remember I believe that if you are goinjg to hit some other teams robot at full speed you cant be any further away then like 3 or 5 feeet. Someone please verify with me. But do u think that FIRST is going to disable those bots that are in a low gear and move at about 2ft/s get penalized if they are moving from across the arena and hit another robot and push them. Will that be classified as ramming because if they were to stop at 3 ft away the other robot could just move. I have looked throught the manual and as a senior I should know this, but is there a max speed that you can go when hitting another robot?

[Travis Hoffman]

I really wish the FIRST community would stop using the word "ram" to dually imply illegal actions and also perfectly legal bumping and pushing. It confuses people. There is no such thing as "good" ramming.

I'd like the word "ram" to be connotated negatively 100% of the time and be defined as any sort of illegal intentional hit initiated from a distance of greater than 3 ft. away from the targeted robot. I believe 3 feet is the accepted threshold.

When we post on this subject, please do not use the term "ram" to describe any legal robot interactions. "Bumping", "pushing", and "shoving" are much better descriptive terms here.

[Greg Perkins]

Remember I believe that if you are goinjg to hit some other teams robot at full speed you cant be any further away then like 3 or 5 feeet. Someone please verify with me. But do u think that FIRST is going to disable those bots that are in a low gear and move at about 2ft/s get penalized if they are moving from across the arena and hit another robot and push them. Will that be classified as ramming because if they were to stop at 3 ft away the other robot could just move. I have looked throught the manual and as a senior I should know this, but is there a max speed that you can go when hitting another robot?


If a robot is in "low gear" as you said, that's not full speed. If a robot is moving at say 2 fps, you will not see a penalty or DQ, however if you were in "high gear" moving at another robot from across the field, need I even say the outcome? Let's try not to paint a grey area in what is now white or black. USE YOUR JUDGEMENT!!!

[Lil' Lavery]

Keep in mind that this year there are very clearly defined areas you may come into contact with other robots (aka "bumper zones"), and any contact outside of the bumper zones (unless clearly unintentional or coincidental with bumper zone contact) can be penelized. Although, if a robot expands beyond the original 28x38 starting dimensions it will forfeit any protection from the bumper zone rules it has.
So, if the contact is low I think there will be much much more leniency twoards you that if it's high, but "charging" or long-distance ramming will still be a risky decision no matter where you hit the other robot.

[Eria4044]

There are five reasons to not want to ram excessively.

1. Not GP.
2. Penalties
3. Anyone ever heard of the more negative version of the golden rule (I think it originated in the Far East)? Basically, it's "Do not to others what you would not have them do to you."
4. You're not going to make any friends.
5. There are other ways to win.

You may want to read the rules. There's all sorts of knowledge in them.

[EricH]

I'm wondering how aggressive teams can be on the field? Can you ram other teams from across the field or does that only apply to the ramp?
How bad can a robot hit or ram another robot until officials intervene?
I'm under the assumption that its a free for all and that you can go out and just punish the other robots on the field.
FIRST is not Battlebots! Our rules are more like soccer: full contact within reason.
Some rules here include: No high-speed ramming from across the field; No contact outside the "bumper zone" (2.5-8.5 inches from the floor); No pinning a robot for more than 10 seconds (except on the ramp). Also, as Kevin said (and the rules say), strategies aimed at destruction or tipping of other robots are prohibited.
So, don't assume it's a free-for-all. It isn't.

(I'll post exact rules with numbers when I can, unless someone else does it first.)

[Gdeaver]

This is an area that is a human judgment call. Last year some regionals where very physical and few penalties. At our regional the penalty flags where flying. Every team has to evaluate how far they can go and don't cross that threshold. This years game almost demands blocking strategies.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

To paraphrase a famous quote most judges will tell you "I'll know it when I see it." Not only were penalties given, there existed the possibility of DQ for a match or a weekend as I remember. When a DQ arrives it hurts not only you but everyone you play with in that match. This is a competition to make lifelong friends, don't use it for just the opposite reason.

[Brindza]

i understand that hitting another robot with a running start is illegal, but what about during autonomus mode?

What if your robot and another are pre programed to go to the same spot?
the faster robot will get there first and get hit by the second robot going at there top speed and since there is no human control there is no way to stop it from happening. So my question is will there still be a ramming penalty if it happens in autonomus mode? :confused:

[KenWittlief]

this first became an issue in the stack attack game, when four robots were trying to hit the wall in the center of the ramp as fast (soon) as possible.

in most cases, if two bots met at the same time there was a stack of plastic boxes between them.

this year you could definately have more than one bot trying to get to the same position on the field as fast (soon) as possible. Its going to be up to your team to decide if you want to send your bot 'out there', whether your bot can take it or not.

If you have a flimsy bot you could stay in the starting position until auton is over.

I dont see any reason why bots should be penalized for collisions in auton mode. As a last resort, theres always the kill switch at the drivers station (if you think your bot is about to be destroyed)

[Dave Flowerday]

I dont see any reason why bots should be penalized for collisions in auton mode. As a last resort, theres always the kill switch at the drivers station (if you think your bot is about to be destroyed)
I recall in one of the past seasons that a Q&A was submitted about the ramming rule in autonomous and the answer was that the ramming/agressive play rules did indeed apply even during autonomous, i.e. if you intentionally ram others in autonomous you could be penalized.

As with all past rules there's no guarantee that it applies this year but it seems like common sense.

[Mike Betts]

...I dont see any reason why bots should be penalized for collisions in auton mode...

Ken,

First off, I appreciate and even agree (in an ideal world) with your position. However...

I would have to argue that, without threat of penalties, someone (somewhere) can (and will) design a robot to seek out opponents using ultrasonic sensors whose sole purpose in autonomous would be to "kill" the other robots. One might even conceive of a vision tracking system which homes in on the bicycle flags or LED clusters we must use...

I must side with Al Skierkiewicz on this one... "I'll know it when I see it."

Occasional, and sometimes intense, contact should be allowed and expected by all robot designers. However, repeated and flagrant use of a "killer autonomous" routine should not be tolerated.

In order to enforce against this quite ungracious and unprofessional strategy, a no-ramming rule for autonomous is, unfortunately, required.

It is easier for a Judge to overlook the occasional collision than it is to prosecute a team which has realized a "killer autonomous" routine because the rules said it was OK.

JMHO,

Mike

[sciencenerd]

if a robot expands beyond the original 28x38 starting dimensions it will forfeit any protection from the bumper zone rules it has.


I believe this is incorrect. According to <R35>, the only constraint on the placement of the bumpers is that they must be between 2.5 and 8.5 inches high. Also, this (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=188&highlight=bumper) question in the Q&A seems to imply they are still legal outside the starting area.

[KenWittlief]

Dave and Mike,

normally teams will have several auton routines that they can select at the start of a match. For this reason you would normally have no way of knowing where your opponents robots will be during auton mode, therefore you could not intentionally 'program' your robot to ram someone elses bot with the intention of causing damage (normally).

as a result you will see bot collisions - possibly full speed collisions as a result of bots trying to get into a particular field position. As long as contact is limited to the bumper zones (a robot does not pull out a javalin!) there should be no foul or penalty.

as for someone designing a robot to seek and destroy during auton mode, that is definately an exception - I think it would be obvious if a robot tracks other bots in every match and repeatedly backs up and rams them. In that case, definately DQ them for the entire event. But I got $100 here that says you will not see a FIRST team design a robot for that purpose.

[Dave Flowerday]

therefore you could not intentionally 'program' your robot to ram someone elses bot with the intention of causing damage (normally).
Sure you can, and it has been done before. In 2003 there were a few teams who had autonomous programs that shot under the bar with hopes of ramming a slow or non-moving robot from the opposing alliance. I won't speculate as to whether damage was intended but the ramming certainly was. This year you could program your robot to drive straight across the field at full speed with hopes of running into an opponent that did not have autonomous (and therefore would be sitting still on the other end of the field).

Of course there's the possibility of accidental collisions (possibly violent) because you don't know where the other guy is going, and this should not be penalized. However, if it is apparent that a robot's autonomous was designed with the intention of running into another robot then the rule should apply (and that was what was communicated in the past). A robot that drives around aimlessly on the field at high speed with no intention of scoring might be an example of this.

[Carol]

You should be aware that refs take note of any team that is being borderline aggressive, to the point of writing down their team number in a special form that is provided. That team is then given special attention the rest of the competition to make sure they don't cross the line.

Caveat agrestis

[Cyber Punk 234]

Well all i can say is you have to be able to take a hit as Woody himself said "you have to be robust" or something along that line. I think teams will see a robot that can play killer defence will be better than a good shooter.

[dhitchco]

I only opened this thread because I was horrified at the topic title line.

The words (and all thoughts) of "ramming" and "hitting" should be stricken from everyon'e vocabulary, brain, mental image, etc. This will only be my 2nd year in FIRST (having seen three regionals and the championship last year) and I was VERY IMPRESSED with the "full contact" but "graceful" play from all teams and I'm sure it will stay that way. The terms of "Bumping" and "pinning" are pretty-well understood.......

By the way, we have a secretly-stored paintball hidden in our robot and if you attack us by "hitting" or "ramming" we'll deploy our secret weapon thus covering your robot's camera with thick, slimy goo forcing your robot to go into wild self-destruct gyrations on the field and end up in a pile of smoking rubble.. :yikes:

get the point now.....ha, ha (this is fun)

[Ian Curtis]

There has never been, and probably never will be, sound strategic backing for full speed ramming. In the past there have been objects midfield (like the platform in '04 and the ramp in '03) that prevent long distance high speed ramming so it wasn't much of an issue. Last year, the way to win was to be an offensively minded team, although first week regionals tended to turn into an "OMG that guy can cap!11!! Hit, hit hit!!" in the Qualifiers. This year, if you've got enough distance to high speed long distance ram, you're in the wrong place to begin with, except for maybe the end of the match, but even then you shouldn't hit becuase you've just unloaded a ton of balls and have just enough time to get atop the ramp. Not to mention after a high speed long distance ram, you'll do damage to your robot, and you'll be facing in some odd direction.

[EricH]

The rules I said I'd reference earlier:
<G22> Intentional ROBOT - ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over, or entanglement of ROBOTs are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. However, AIM HIGH is a highly interactive game, and some appropriate contact is allowed
subject to the following guidelines:
• Rule <R35> in Section 5.3.4 establishes ROBOT bumper zones. Any contact within this zone is generally acceptable, with the exception of high speed long distance ramming. If two ROBOTs choose not to use bumpers, and they contact such that simultaneous contact occurs both in and out of
the bumper zone, then this contact is considered within the bumper zone.
• Contact outside of the bumper zone is generally not acceptable, and the offending ROBOT will be assessed a 5-point penalty, and may be disqualified from the match if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT. Incidental contact will not be
penalized. Contact outside the bumper zone that is a result of tipping caused by contact within the bumper zone will be considered incidental contact.
• If a ROBOT extends outside of its 28 inch by 38 inch starting footprint, it is responsible for the extension’s contact with other ROBOTs and must not use the extension to contact other ROBOTs outside of the bumper zone. Likewise, other ROBOTs will not be responsible for contact with the extension outside of the bumper zone. Again, incidental contact will not be penalized.

<G24> Pinning - While on the carpeted field surface, a ROBOT cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border) for more than 10 seconds. This rule does not
apply if either ROBOT is entirely on an ALLIANCE PLATFORM. If a ROBOT has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning ROBOT will be told by a referee to release the pinned ROBOT and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning ROBOT has backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent, and if successful, the 10 second count will start over. If a referee determines that this rule has been violated, a 5-point penalty flag will be assessed for each violation.

These govern contact on the field. Follow or take the penalties.

[Mike Norton]

Well all i can say is you have to be able to take a hit as Woody himself said "you have to be robust" or something along that line. I think teams will see a robot that can play killer defence will be better than a good shooter.

This year robots are worth points. So how can you stop a robot from pushing you up the ramp to score points.

I see that as long as you do not hit outside the hit zone you can try to move robots to the ramp for points.

I see it will be very hard to blame a robot that tips you over. you can't have more than a 10 degree angle on the robot, so if a robot that has a flat surface and pushes you and you flip how can you blame that team for flipping you. You need to make a robot that does not tip over if being pushed.

About seeking out robots in the auto mode, once again you are trying to stop them from scoring. so make sure your robot can take a Hit. if a robot does back up and hit again that would be wrong. but if a robot does push you and keeps pushing you in auto mode that should be allowed.

Every robot has the choice of putting on Bumpers. You get 15lbs more so I think FIRST knows robot will hit and hit often.

[EricH]

I see it will be very hard to blame a robot that tips you over. you can't have more than a 10 degree angle on the robot, so if a robot that has a flat surface and pushes you and you flip how can you blame that team for flipping you.

About seeking out robots in the auto mode, once again you are trying to stop them from scoring. so make sure your robot can take a Hit. if a robot does back up and hit again that would be wrong. but if a robot does push you and keeps pushing you in auto mode that should be allowed.
About your first statement: Oh, yes you can. Particularly if you do not have a high CG. If you do not have a high CG, and someone without bumpers but with the sides within 10 degrees of vertical pushes you, and you go over, you could blame them. Unless you are on the ramp, you should not tip over if you are pushed.

About the second point: Yes, be sure your robot can take a hit. Don't be the one giving the hitting, but build to take one of your old robots hitting you at full throttle (if they still run).

[Taylor]

I only opened this thread because I was horrified at the topic title line.

The words (and all thoughts) of "ramming" and "hitting" should be stricken from everyon'e vocabulary, brain, mental image, etc. This will only be my 2nd year in FIRST (having seen three regionals and the championship last year) and I was VERY IMPRESSED with the "full contact" but "graceful" play from all teams and I'm sure it will stay that way. The terms of "Bumping" and "pinning" are pretty-well understood.......

Amen brother. Robots designed to inflict pain and damage to others are most certainly not GP and in the spirit of the game. Three big reasons not to act this way:
1. The possibility of penalties. Even if you think you can slide by, it's better not to push this particular envelope.
2. Newton's laws. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If over the course of the day, say you ram each opponent thrice per game, and you play 5 rounds. That means your opponent (and possible future alliance partner) will have had three direct hits from you, while your bot has sustained 45 collisions. Most people who punch walls come away with broken hands.
3. Bracket pairings. If you're very aggressive (in a bad way) and maybe landed a few clean licks on a very high-placing robot, chances are they'll look somewhere else when choosing partners for the finals. I don't care how many buttons and beads you hand out, if your robot is not sportsmanlike, don't be surprised when you're watching the finals from the nosebleed seats.

[Rob]

Lets say a team is running full speed to their ramp at the end of a match, and an opponent tries to block them, causing a "full speed ramming/collision" situation.

Is the team trying to race to its ramp penalized? In other words, who is responsible for preventing this collision, the team trying to score on the ramp or the team trying to defend?

I think "ramming" penalties will be very tough for refs to call given situations like this. On the other hand, teams can avoid penalties of this nature by avoiding the situations that can cause them. (for example, playing a slow pushing/blocking style of defense rather than a hard hitting fast style of defense).

Something that helped teams learn how to avoid penalties last year was when the match announcer described what penalties given at the end of a match. This really helped teams to learn and adjust their style of play. I hope this is done again this year.

Rob

[Dominicano0519]

what if a team rams you in autonomus mode and wrecks your scoring mechanism


then after you fix it the same team does the exact same thing again and rebreaks it(in autonomus mode)


does that count as an intentional ram?