View Full Version : New for 2006: 3 Foot Flags on Robots
Tomasz Bania
19-01-2006, 21:35
Even though many people read the manual, you could have not noticed this "NEW RULE".
<R13> Robots must use one of the two colored bicycle flags provided at the event queuing location to display
their alliance color (red or blue). Each robot must include a 12 inch long, 1/2” ID PVC tube, capped at the
bottom, permanently mounted on the robot such that when a 3 :o foot long, 1/4 inch diameter flagpole is inserted
the top of the flagpole is no higher than 6 feet from the ground and the top of the flagpole is at least 12 inches
higher than any other point on the robot (+/- 1/2 inch). The flagpole must be mounted such that it starts the
match, and remains, approximately vertical. The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not
articulated or actuated.
Think about the problems this can cause!
I heard that this is suppose to " :) enhance the viewing experience :)" for the spectators : :rolleyes: and make it easier to tell the alliances apart for the judges.
I just call it a " ( Total Nuisance > "!
EDIT: SORRY IF I SOUND THREATENING BUT... I'll post the reason later.
Thank you for bringing this out into the forums and, hopefully, to people's attention.
Incidentally, we still have to carry an LED flasher for diagnostic purposes. Now, this LED flasher has been around for two years already, and it is annoying. In '04: four of them at approximately 90 degrees to each other. In '05: Two of them, at approximately 180 degrees. At about 100', you couldn't see the lights flashing, which meant that you couldn't tell which side the robot was on. :( Now, with the flags, you can instantly tell if a robot is red or blue, without the primary team identifier being counted in weight. (Before '04, every robot was equipped with a rotaing light for alliance ID. They weighed about a pound.) :) So, in comparison to previous years, we've got it easy.
I think It may have something to possibly do with the CMU camera since it is emitting a light. but then again those two colors are not green.
I think It will be much easier to identify the alliances. I kinda like it.
Tomasz Bania
19-01-2006, 21:52
But even the fact that you can view it easier, it can cause problems, like for example, I don't think that our manipulations team knows that there is going to be a flag hanging around above our manipulations (can't get into details as I don't even know what their doing). If i'm not mistaken, the flag that is 12" by 12" which I might be wrong, but that is pretty big for a robot that can only be 5 foot high. Think about the fact that since the flag can be 6 feet high, some teams will be unloading and the short drivers at the side driver stations won't see anything, which is a violation of the rules. I want to see FIRST dig themselves out of this one.
But even the fact that you can view it easier, it can cause problems, like for example, I don't think that our manipulations team knows that there is going to be a flag hanging around above our manipulations (can't get into details as I don't even know what their doing). If i'm not mistaken, the flag that is 12" by 12" which I might be wrong, but that is pretty big for a robot that can only be 5 foot high. Think about the fact that since the flag can be 6 feet high, some teams will be unloading and the short drivers at the side driver stations won't see anything, which is a violation of the rules. I want to see FIRST dig themselves out of this one.
I was a little concerned at first as well. But i have a challenge for you. Take Any FRC robot from a past comp and see if you couldn't find someplace to fix the flag to stick up 12" from the top. I think you'll find it easier than you think. this should be especially easy this year since you don't need clearence for moving arms.
spamified88
19-01-2006, 21:58
I don't know why they didn't think of it sooner! ALL, and I mean ALL, of the LEDs on my team's last year's robot fell apart relatively quickly. Also, they were kind of annoying being that you can only see them from about ten feet away, and then there's at least another ten feet to the stands! I guess FIRST learned that lights just weren't cuttin it. Finally, flags make this game seem more sports-like than anything else?
Andrew Blair
19-01-2006, 22:02
Err... what? The flag is only 1'x1'! The pole is probably only a fiberglass pole, 1/4" ID! If your view is obstructed that much by a 1' square flag, you probably shouldn't be looking at the flag. And as for the short people not being able to see... Again. If a 1' square flag obstructs a driver's vision, your team needs to find a new driver. Just having your robot there to load, considering a high robot, will probably obstruct your vision more. The only possible trouble I can envision is having to design a 1 degree dead zone so you don't shoot the rod, if you even slew 360 degrees. This will not be an issue.
Example: Take a sheet of white paper, and put it in front of you 4 or five feet. Thats what it'll be like.
Jeff Rodriguez
19-01-2006, 22:08
*clip* If i'm not mistaken, the flag that is 12" by 12" which I might be wrong, but that is pretty big for a robot that can only be 5 foot high. *clip* I want to see FIRST dig themselves out of this one.
Where are you getting this 12"x12" dimension?
As the rule states:
Robots must use one of the two colored bicycle flags provided at the event queuing location to display their alliance color (red or blue). Each robot must include a 12 inch long, 1/2” ID PVC tube, capped at the bottom, permanently mounted on the robot such that when a 3 foot long, 1/4 inch diameter flagpole is inserted the top of the flagpole is no higher than 6 feet from the ground and the top of the flagpole is at least 12 inches higher than any other point on the robot (+/- 1/2 inch). The flagpole must be mounted such that it starts the match, and remains, approximately vertical. The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not articulated or actuated.
So, the flag will be sticking up a foot higher than any other part or your robot, with a maximum height of 6 feet .5 inches.
It's just a flag, it's not going to obstruct a drivers view anymore than the robot in front of them will.
FIRST doesn't have to dig out of anything, teams have to make a spot for the flag.
I like the flags as people have said before the LEDs were had to see at distances. The old lights were big and bulky. I don't think the flags will obstruct vision that much larger robots would do that more.
Tomasz Bania
19-01-2006, 22:13
Here is a PM about this topic I had with Henry_222
Smile Re: New for 2006: 3 FOOT FlAgS on ROBOTS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by micro3000x
But even the fact that you can view it easier, it can cause problems, like for example, I don't think that our manipulations team knows that there is going to be a flag hanging around above our manipulations (can't get into details as I don't even know what their doing). If i'm not mistaken, the flag that is 12" by 12" which I might be wrong, but that is pretty big for a robot that can only be 5 foot high. Think about the fact that since the flag can be 6 feet high, some teams will be unloading and the short drivers at the side driver stations won't see anything, which is a violation of the rules. I want to see FIRST dig themselves out of this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry_222
Hey micro,
I feel that there is a lot of hostility toward FIRST in this post of yours. I don't approve of it as FIRST has an immense task in front of them every year with a new game. I didn't want to take away your rep because you are fairly low in post count and there for low in forum experience. Keep in mind, FIRST's effect on us teens is amazing. I could never ever thank them enough for the effort they put forth.
Happy browsing
-Henry
Quote:
Originally Posted by micro3000x
Yeah, I'm sorry if it sounded threatening as I was busy being angry at something else when I was typing the message. I will fix it promptly.
Sorry,
Micro3000x
P.S. Can I post this P.M. coversation in the thread so I don't have to say sorry to everyone that PM'ed me?
You have my permission; sure, but I think a simple change of wording and an
"EDIT: I re-worded a previous statement due to a conveyed unintentional anger"
/EDIT"
will do.
Happy I could help
-Henry
__________________
Andrew Blair
19-01-2006, 22:13
A bicycle flag is relatively small, just a little colored triangle. Maybe they'll be barbie flags...:p
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:9HrTPS3RU2ha_M:www.besafeinc.com/images/bikeflag.jpg
Guys, the rule says a bicycle flag. All the ones I've seen are about 6" high triangles. Chill. It shouldn't be too hard to find someplace around the 4' point with the given specs.
Tomasz Bania
19-01-2006, 22:19
Sorry, the 12" flag is something that I heard someone talk about at a regional.
It's probably more in the area of a six inch triangular flag.
P.S.Going on CD on my cell since i gotta go, i'll still reply though.
but if you think about it you might have some idiot team put the flag in a spot to
use it against other robots to block some other teams launchers and thats could
be a big problem. i found it very easy to identify who is on whos team last year i
think this is just gonna be a big problem the entire compitition............
Tomasz Bania
19-01-2006, 22:38
Even though most people don't have a problem with it, some teams will. Some teams are probably looking at this and saying "YOU MUST BE JOKING!"
Even though most people don't have a problem with it, some teams will. Some teams are probably looking at this and saying "YOU MUST BE JOKING!"
That will be the teams that were not around for the bubble light. That took a lot more space then this flag needs.
Wetzel
At least this flag is non functional.
greencactus3
19-01-2006, 23:28
in OCCRA we have been using flags for the past um. 2 years i think. i love them. SO much easier to tell which alliances each is on.
I believe this to be a great move on FIRST'S part. What a simple easy way of telling teams apart. It doesn't count in your weight and simple to build into your design. We have time to prepare now not as in previous years were we picked up parts at the competition. FIRST got it right again.
BTW I am an announcer and after last year, my job will be way easier. :D
That will be the teams that were not around for the bubble light. That took a lot more space then this flag needs.
Not to mention shattered easily (at least in '04 they did). Not to mention being hard to mount.
Jessica Boucher
19-01-2006, 23:37
This thread reminds me of one of my favorite spotlights....
I like what FIRST said about it best: They consider it part of the "Game Challenge" (link to original post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=234233&postcount=7))
What can you do? The more time you waste here speculating the less time you have to work on the robot. Go! Build Robots! Now! ;)
Matt Krass
19-01-2006, 23:45
I didn't see it mentioned in the rules, does the flag pole holder have to be within the confines of the robot footprint? I would tend to think not, it'd be kind of annoying to have to make space for it, and could mess with manipulators...then again the light was worse. Just wondering, thanks.
B. Flaherty
19-01-2006, 23:48
Although I only have one year of FIRST under my belt, I think driving with the flags will be much easier for this game. Last year was pretty easy to me, mainly to the fact that the robots carried colored tetras. I was aware of who my opponents were, but in the heat of the match, I mainly used tetras for identification. Hopefully, the flags will have the same effect on this years game.
I didn't see it mentioned in the rules, does the flag pole holder have to be within the confines of the robot footprint? I would tend to think not, it'd be kind of annoying to have to make space for it, and could mess with manipulators...then again the light was worse. Just wondering, thanks.
There is nothing stating that there is an allowance, so my guess would be inside of the robot size limits.
sciencenerd
20-01-2006, 00:12
I really don't believe the bicycle flags will present a visibility issue. I remember a thread, similar to this one, created last year; where people discussed the possibility that the five foot goal directly in front of the center alliance member's driver station would impede the vision of that alliance's drivers. I was one of the drivers on our team last year, and I never had a problem with this, nor heard anyone else ever complain about it. People will always be a little nervous, which is ok, but this is even less of a concern than it was last year, and I'm sure it will be fine.
I believe this to be a great move on FIRST'S part. What a simple easy way of telling teams apart. It doesn't count in your weight and simple to build into your design. We have time to prepare now not as in previous years were we picked up parts at the competition. FIRST got it right again.
BTW I am an announcer and after last year, my job will be way easier. :D
This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. No, the flag doesn't count against your weight limit, but the PVC pipe it sits in, plus mounting hardware sure does. Add that to the LED's, and you have a net decrease in usable weight from last year (although probably fairly insignificant).
On topic, do I think FIRST will change the rule? No.
Do I think it's a good idea to differentiate alliances with a more easily identifiable method? Yes.
Do I wish they used something other than a somewhat lame looking bike flag sticking out the top of my robot? Yes.
Ryan Albright
20-01-2006, 03:19
I am not to much of a fan of the flag. I agree these will be much more visible then the LEDs. The LEDs were a good thought just not bright enough. How about teams the teams that have started vertically in the past couple of years such as 67. Now if they were planning on this again, they are going to come up with a device to let the flag swivel so when the robot become horizontal the flag will still be vertical, or this can even stop a team from starting their robot like that. I think this is sad because i love robots that start like that. I think FIRST needs to totally rethink how they identify a alliance color. The LED's were a great idea just not bright enough, I think personally they need to stay with some kind of light, there are so many options out there, just need some research. I hate to say it but the best things we have had were the rotating lights. Yes they were big and bulky and sometimes the color lens would fall off but they were bright and it was easy to identify the alliance. Yes i def think we can do better then those but we need to stick with the lights.
My $.50 cents
Sorry 2 cents is getting to cheap for me :)
Note: If i mentioned anything that goes against the rules this year please correct me, i have been to busy to read fully through the Manuel i have only skimmed it
Note: If i mentioned anything that goes against the rules this year please correct me, i have been to busy to read fully through the Manuel i have only skimmed it
Indeed you did :)
falling down robots a la 67 are no longer allowed.
Ryan Albright
20-01-2006, 04:41
Indeed you did :)
falling down robots a la 67 are no longer allowed.
Thanks for takin it easy on me :)
Wow now i am a little upset, i like those robots
excuse me while i go cry
California people are cool. There different time zone means they are up when i am working graves on the east coast woot woot
Tomasz Bania
20-01-2006, 08:57
I can't believe this, but I think you guys are starting to change my mind about the flags.
Do I wish they used something other than a somewhat lame looking bike flag sticking out the top of my robot? Yes.
Just wait until 2008 when they make our robots wear jerseys. :D
"Taking a page out of the sports playbook...." ;)
...How about teams the teams that have started vertically in the past couple of years such as 67. Now if they were planning on this again, they are going to come up with a device to let the flag swivel so when the robot become horizontal the flag will still be vertical, or this can even stop a team from starting their robot like that....Note: If i mentioned anything that goes against the rules this year please correct me, i have been to busy to read fully through the Manuel i have only skimmed it
FRC 2005 Manual Section 5.3.2.3 Rule <R13>[/b]]
Robots must use one of the two colored bicycle flags provided at the event queuing location to display their alliance color (red or blue). Each robot must include a 12 inch long, 1/2” ID PVC tube, capped at the bottom, permanently mounted on the robot such that when a 3 foot long, 1/4 inch diameter flagpole is inserted the top of the flagpole is no higher than 6 feet from the ground and the top of the flagpole is at least 12 inches higher than any other point on the robot (+/- 1/2 inch).The flagpole must be mounted such that it starts the match, and remains, approximately vertical. The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not articulated or actuated.
Sorry Ryan but that would be out of the question too, Good Idea though.
arabsponsor
20-01-2006, 10:41
The whole point of FIRST is learning to solve problems, although I don't see the flag being that big of a deal. I think it will help not only the people in the stands keep the alliances straight but also those watching via the telecast. The more exposure FIRST can receive will help all teams in the end. (More sponsors, mentors, ect.)
devicenull
20-01-2006, 13:13
If you are that worried about it, go to your local Wal-Mart and take a look at the actual flag you will be mounting. IIRC it's flexible, so blocking balls won't be a problem (You would have to line up a tiny pole with the ball anyway), and it's not big enough to block anyone's vision.
Just like the CMUcam, I think this will be with us for awhile.
This seems to be a common misconception in this thread. No, the flag doesn't count against your weight limit, but the PVC pipe it sits in, plus mounting hardware sure does. Add that to the LED's, and you have a net decrease in usable weight from last year (although probably fairly insignificant).
The total weight of the LED (there is only one this year) and the flag holder is maybe 0.25 lbs, if that (I'm going from memory as I don't have my weight figures handy, but I think it's lower). The net decrease is insignificant.
Leo 1529
20-01-2006, 19:55
the flag could be a good thing.... you could use it to block balls coming out of a shooter
its still a lame piece to put on a robot
Andrew Blair
20-01-2006, 23:20
its still a lame piece to put on a robot
Why? It's nothing but good! It improves visibilty (+), it could possibly block balls (+), and it is, with the LED's, an improved solution to the old style revolving light. (+).
I understand that you think it will make our "Beloved Creations" look like toddler's bicycles, but, it will not. It's barely noticeable by the audience, and it's wonderful for the drivers. If your robot looks lame (like a toddler's bicycle), it probably looked pretty lame without the flag. (By the way, our's is definently going to be on of the lame looking ones. It never fails! :D )
Mr. Freeman
20-01-2006, 23:58
I like the flag idea. It'll be a lot easier to figure out what robot is on which team. Especially if you start viewing a match in the middle of the round after everyone has already moved.
It's barely noticeable by the audience
If this is true (which it isn't), there would be absolutely no point to having the flags.
Sachiel7
21-01-2006, 03:50
I personally go both ways on the flag.
For one, I like the fact that it will make it much easier to tell which team is on which alliance. Kudos FIRST.
On the other hand, I feel that once again, we are facing a feature that makes things more difficult for the game. Might I remind (for those who were around) you, why the rotating light was (well one of the reasons) scrapped after 2003. The problem was that many teams attempted to pass under the 14" bars on the side of the field, yet also had to find a spot for a 6-ish inch light within that structure. (You may recall the "lights must be mounted upright" rule...) Lights busted. The judges were confused. Teams were frustrated.
Personally, (and I say this with emphasis) on my team, these flags will probably cause a fair amount of disruption in our design. Namely, it gives a distraction or (worst case) block for the CMUcam, (if it happens to be facing the flagpole area at the time......) and also runs the potential of being in the way of our launcher....
I do acknowledge this as part of the design challenge, but I think we could've been given something a little easier to work with that would give us the ability to avoid putting it on our robot in a way that automatically interferes with its operations. Just my $0.02
Andrew Blair
21-01-2006, 17:01
If this is true (which it isn't), there would be absolutely no point to having the flags.
Well, I guess I should have said "Not large and obtrusive to the audience". I'm not so sure. If the majority of the audience (those not on a team) sits 15 or more rows up, since most of the lower seats are taken up by teams, I don't think they will be *that* visible. Or maybe not. The point is, the biggest reward of having the flags is so that TEAMS and REFS can see whos who. But the audience should know as well.
Well, I guess I should have said "Not large and obtrusive to the audience". I'm not so sure. If the majority of the audience (those not on a team) sits 15 or more rows up, since most of the lower seats are taken up by teams, I don't think they will be *that* visible. Or maybe not. The point is, the biggest reward of having the flags is so that TEAMS and REFS can see whos who. But the audience should know as well.
Speaking from experience, as both a driver and a referee, the people on the field don't have an issue with identifying robots. Drive teams should be able to distinguish between partners and opposing alliances without any light/flag etc. It's fairly safe to say that this rule is intended to make it easier for the audience to identify robots, as the lights were hard/impossible to distinguish from long distance.
Tomasz Bania
23-01-2006, 20:46
The flags are definately something that is going to be on people's minds as we get closer to ship dates, because i'm pretty sure their building the flag around the robot, not the robot around the flag (If it sounds wierd, than I'm sorry).
The thing I see in the rule is that it sound like you can't mount it to your turret, and this thing has to be on the highest part of your robot. So there will be a portion of time your shooter cant shoot because the ball will hit the flag.
Tomasz Bania
06-02-2006, 21:23
I doubt that. Most likely you should just build a post taller than the shooter and put it on there.
Andrew Blair
06-02-2006, 21:28
I doubt that. Most likely you should just build a post taller than the shooter and put it on there.
Problem is, you can't have the flag above 6'. So, you can mount the thing 1' above the ground. The *small* obstruction is caused by the fact that you can't have it on an actuated part of the robot, and if you lift it up, you still have an obstruction, somewhere. Oh well, I doubt anyone cannot live with a 5 degree "no shoot" zone.
So, you can mount the thing 1' above the ground.
Only if your robot is 2 or 3 feet tall (depending where you measure from on the holder, top or bottom). If you have a full height robot, the top should be 4' up. If you only have a kitbot, your choice.
BRosser314
15-02-2006, 16:20
You may say I am a bit old school but it would sure be nice if FIRST went back to the spinning lights from 2003. They were easy to change, nad very visible from anywhere. I dont see the flags attracting much more attentin then some banners on the robots already.
For Eample: The lights spin and flash your team color, while the flags might just stay there and look dumb.
My opinio is that they should go back to the rotating lights and allow an extra pound for the light, they really dont need to add the extra pound, but it would be nice.
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