Ramp Scoring, At 00:00 or After?

[Rombus]

So my team was talking about how we would be going up the ramp and i came up with 2 questions:

1. When Is the ramp points actually scored? If your on the ramp and not the top of it, there is potential to rollback when the robot is disabled, so if we are clearly on the ramp at the end of the game, but rollback due to the end of the game, would we get points or not?

2. Lets say Redabot is blocking Blueabot, The rest of Blueabots team is on the ramp except for BlueabotC, Rather than try and get around Redabot, BlueabotC pushes Redabot up the ramp. Redabot is touching BlueabotC but Redabot is clearly on the ramp and not touching the carpet. Does this count as points or not since there is a point of contact to the carpet via blueabotC?

[Wayne Doenges]

<G09> ROBOTs on ALLIANCE PLATFORMs - ROBOTs score points if they are entirely on an ALLIANCE PLATFORM at the end of the match. ALLIANCEs receive points for ROBOTs belonging to either ALLIANCE that are on the ALLIANCE PLATFORM closest to the ALLIANCE’s DRIVER station. If
any part of the ROBOT is touching the carpet, the ROBOT is not considered on the platform. If a ROBOT is entirely on an ALLIANCE PLATFORM and is touching another ROBOT that is not entirely on the ALLIANCE PLATFORM, it still is considered on the platform. One ROBOT on a platform or ramp is worth 5 points, two ROBOTs are worth 10 points, 3 or more ROBOTs are worth 25 points.

IMHO :rolleyes:

Question #1: I don't think your robot would score. You are not fully on the ramp.
Question #2: If you can hold Redabot on the ramp than they would score points for your alliance.

[sanddrag]

For Question #1, "at the end of the match" and "after the end of the match" are two very different things. The rule is worded "at." Also, I see no mention of "remaining" on the ramp "after" the match. Perahps these couple words were inadvertantly left out of the language of the rule. Common sense tells me that is the case and a robot that rolls back down will not be scored (going by the "scoring is done after all objects are at rest" type of rule from previous years). But, this does seem like a good Q/A question because it could change the drive system a lot if a robot is scored AT the end of the match versus being scored AFTER the end of the match.

[xzvrw2]

In OCCRA (the student built robotics league we have in Oakland county, mi) there was a grace period for all the pneumatics to settle. One team was not hanging on the hanging bar at the end of the match but after about 3 seconds they started to lift off of the ground. They ruled it as they were up off the ground. I don't know if they are doing this here because i didn't see it in the rules, unless i missed it.

[Rombus]

(going by the "scoring is done after all objects are at rest" type of rule from previous years).

Thats why i was wondering, i know this year is going to be realtime scoring. ill have to talk to the team advisor tommorw and see if we can get it posted on the Q&A.

As for question 2, I got the answer earlier today rereading the rulebook between classes, didnet realize it was spelled out.

[Bill Moore]

For Question #1, "at the end of the match" and "after the end of the match" are two very different things. The rule is worded "at." Also, I see no mention of "remaining" on the ramp "after" the match. Perahps these couple words were inadvertantly left out of the language of the rule. Common sense tells me that is the case and a robot that rolls back down will not be scored (going by the "scoring is done after all objects are at rest" type of rule from previous years). But, this does seem like a good Q/A question because it could change the drive system a lot if a robot is scored AT the end of the match versus being scored AFTER the end of the match.
Sanddrag is guiding you properly; questions this technical need to be addressed through the Q&A System. All we can provide are our opinions or historical context, nothing definite for this year.
That said, in 2004, The Hanging Year, referees waited 10 seconds after a match if items were still moving. A number of bots would slowly drift downward after the match, and unfortunately by 10 seconds they would be in contact with the floor. Using this historical reference, a robot who rolled down the incline during the settling period would not be scored.
The settling period is important during some years. In 2003, we had a robot feature (stacking cage) that did not operate until power was removed at the end of the match, when it opened to release the bins. In 2002, many teams had tethers that were released toward the end zone when power was removed. I'm not sure what robot tasks could be performed this year when power is removed, but if one exists, someone will find it and capitalize on it. (Sounds like a good question for a new thread.)

[AmyPrib]

So my team was talking about how we would be going up the ramp and i came up with 2 questions:

1. When Is the ramp points actually scored? If your on the ramp and not the top of it, there is potential to rollback when the robot is disabled, so if we are clearly on the ramp at the end of the game, but rollback due to the end of the game, would we get points or not?

2. Lets say Redabot is blocking Blueabot, The rest of Blueabots team is on the ramp except for BlueabotC, Rather than try and get around Redabot, BlueabotC pushes Redabot up the ramp. Redabot is touching BlueabotC but Redabot is clearly on the ramp and not touching the carpet. Does this count as points or not since there is a point of contact to the carpet via blueabotC?

In 2003 Game Rules, it says: "An additional 25pts will be awarded to each robot that is touching only the top of the platform at the end of the match."

In 2004 Game Rules it says: "A robot that is hanging from the bar at the end of the match will receive 50pts".

In 2006 Game Rules it says: "Robots score points if they are entirely on the alliance platform at the end of the match".

In both previous years, it meant at the end of the match and beyond. You could not touch the grating, or roll down the ramp in 2003 to be considered on the platform, and in 2004, you coudn't be touching the ground to be considered hanging. Yes, this is historical reference, but seems to be a trend of their intention, and actually I never would have thought to question this meaning. I would go with the same concept this year, but if you want to be sure, ask Q/A.

Since being "on the platform" in all of the cases, including this year, means they might even have to do a "belly check" (getting on the ground with a piece of paper) to make sure you aren't touching areas you're not supposed to be, one would assume that you must remain on the ramp long enough to be scored by the refs. You cannot expect the refs to be able to do this dynamically at the instant the time hits 0, nor expect the scoring table to be sure you're actually on the ramp to do the real-time.

The second question has been answered already and is in the rules: It doesn't matter if you are touching a robot that is touching the carpet - if your robot is fully on the platform per the rules, then your robot will count as on the platform.

That's my take.

[Tim Delles]

If you look at the past years you had to be on the ramp or bar without touching the ground or anything else even after the match ended. This is how the refs called it and it would be a good bet to say that if you slide down the ramp after time expires you will not get the points for your robot.

[Ianworld]

How about the opposite situation. A robot is going full speed across the field when the match buzzer rings, the power is cut off to the robots but it still coasts up the ramp and onto the platform where it stops by hitting the wall. Would this be considered a score for the team or would it not count?

[Tim Delles]

In my own opinion I would say that it would count. If you look back to 2002 when you could tether your robot to the endzone, if it made it back after the end of the match then you were counted as being in.

[Marc P.]

Historically speaking, nothing is scored until it is "at rest." Once the buzzer sounds and the controls are disabled, the referees will not look at whether a robot is in a scoring position until all motion stops, whether it be inertia, pneumatics, or gravity. After all robots are in a final resting position, it will be determined whether points will be awarded. In the past, there have been some close calls (particularly in 2003 with the metal ramp) where a piece of paper was used to determine whether a robot was fully in scoring position or not (if the paper could freely move between the robot and ground/ramp, it was in.)

[dude__hi]

We're not taking chances so if we decide to go for the ramp we will shift our robot to the fast gear and sprint toward the ramp as fast as possible. We're even incorporating a brake for the wheels so we can stay on the ramp and not fall off.

[KenWittlief]

the key here seems to be (as in the past) the refs have to be able to look at the robots after the match is over, and determine if they are scoring or not.

It would be very difficult in some cases to determine if a bot had coasted into scoring position 1mS after the buzzer, or was in scoring position 1mS after the buzzer and then drifted back.

Final resting position has been the general rule over the years.

[Eria4044]

Why not simply turn your robot so that it's at an angle or even facing sideways on the ramp? Assuming you're not using wheels that swivel, it should work and be easier to implement than brakes.

[KenWittlief]

or find the bolts in the ramp and deploy the 10,000 Gauss magnet :^)

[Tim Delles]

Why not simply turn your robot so that it's at an angle or even facing sideways on the ramp? Assuming you're not using wheels that swivel, it should work and be easier to implement than brakes.

Because that takes time, little fo which should be exerted on getting onto the ramp if you decide to do it. the less time you take on the ramp the more time you have to score.

[greencactus3]

so wait. if a robot is running full speed towards the ramp, and right before the buzzer it shifts to neutral, and a couple seconds (within 10) after the buzzer it rolls onto and stays on the ramp. is that going to be scored? there are ways to mechanically store energy until the power is cut and then it has a way to move the robot onto the ramp and keep it there... is that going to be allowed?

[EricH]

so wait. if a robot is running full speed towards the ramp, and right before the buzzer it shifts to neutral, and a couple seconds (within 10) after the buzzer it rolls onto and stays on the ramp. is that going to be scored? there are ways to mechanically store energy until the power is cut and then it has a way to move the robot onto the ramp and keep it there... is that going to be allowed?
Historically, it would be scored. The only ways I can think of to store energy after the match (pneumatics and springs) would neither have the power nor the range to get a robot onto the ramp. Lock it in place, yes, but get it on, no.

[Tim Delles]

Basically look at it this way.

If you are not on the ramp at the end, there is almost no chance you are going to be able to get your robot completely on the ramp. There is a lot of physics involved with this, but im assuming that you would have to be going at a very uncontrollable and unatainable speed to be able to coast onto the ramp after power was shut off. However if teams would like to give it a try go for it and tell me how it turns out.

[KenWittlief]

so wait. if a robot is running full speed towards the ramp, and right before the buzzer it shifts to neutral, and a couple seconds (within 10) after the buzzer it rolls onto and stays on the ramp. is that going to be scored?

There have been bots over the years that had mechanisms that were triggered at the end of the match, or when the power to the controllers is removed, and they moved in a way to score points after the buzzer.

Very impressive if you can pull it off. One that comes to mind is the game of 1999, when the bots had to hold scoring objects 8 feet in the air to score.

a few had slow moving spring or surgical tubing extenders that raised slowly after being released.

Total engineering elegance when it works.

[Nitroxextreme]

Has this been asked in the Q & A forum because it could effect many designs...I believe

[Ethulin]

Has this been asked in the Q & A forum because it could effect many designs...I believe

I just asked, awaiting a response.

- Erik