Team update #11

[Joe J.]

Team update #11 has been posted

Team Update #11 (http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/Updates/Team_Update_11_Feb-21-06.pdf)

I searched, sorry if somebody already posted this.

[nuggetsyl]

well looks like half of first can not compete now

shaun

[sburro]

I'm happy to see FIRST has dropped the ball again this year. Putting this update out 17 hours after we had to ship. Let's hope they can get back on their game before week one regionals are here.

JT
229
I think that was a very unfair statement. FIRST has a tough job and for them to have as many updates as they have is a GIFT. Anyone who has been around for the past three years will tell you this

IF teams did NOT READ THE FIRST MANUAL AND Q&A SITE, it is not FIRST's fault, it is the TEAMS fault

[Rombus]

Guys, COME ON. The rules were there in the rulebook from day one. This isnet FIRSTs fault if you dident shield, or dident know the shoot must be inside the starting envelope.

You guys are making this sound like FIRST Just said "OK, rather than using 7" poof balls you can only use a golfball"

[Andrew Blair]

Guys, COME ON. The rules were there in the rulebook from day one. This isnet FIRSTs fault if you dident shield, or dident know the shoot must be inside the starting envelope.

You guys are making this sound like FIRST Just said "OK, rather than using 7" poof balls you can only use a golfball"
I wish... golfballs would feed better. ;)

[Tristan Lall]

Putting this update out 17 hours after we had to ship. If you ship at any time on February 21, 2006 you will be in compliance with the "by midnight local time" rule.17 hours after? You shipped yesterday? (Or really early this morning, I suppose....)

[Billfred]

I'm happy to see FIRST has dropped the ball again this year. Putting this update out 17 hours after we had to ship. Let's hope they can get back on their game before week one regionals are here.

JT
229
I don't see anything particularly shocking in this update--the update is only reiterating some things that came up at scrimmages. Or was the human shielding a new development? (My brain seems to have released the magic smoke.)

[BoyWithCape195]

I just went back to look at a few of the robot pictures posted recently and pretty much all of them would be violating the "shielding" rule.

[nuggetsyl]

I just went back to look at a few of the robot pictures posted recently and pretty much all of them would be violating the "shielding" rule.
I was doing the same thing a ton of robots are not going to be happy when they get to there comp. If First cracks down on the rule

shuan

[Peter Matteson]

Many of the posts I've seen on this site appear marginal with regards to sheilding. This can easily be rectified with some .020 polycarb and some POP rivets in the pits however. I would suggest if you have anything rotating on your bot not completely covered bring these materials for a quick fix in the pits.

Take a look at how many of you have a large shooter wheel or wheels with nothing protecting it. other than where the ball contacts.

Also, many of these items were discussed in the Q&A.

Pete

[BoyWithCape195]

Heres just a few of the robots

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13087&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13067&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13070&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13073&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13076&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13079&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13082&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13101&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13106&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13115&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=5&trows=10&quiet=Verbose

[Peter Matteson]

Heres just a few of the robots

I agree with you that most of those need some additional guarding that is not present. Some of them even note in their captions that they don't have their guards on. Team 27 however has beautifully machined guards on their wheels. They might need some of the polycarb I mentioned above, however they clearly saw the intent of the rule.

Also forgot to mention before remeber the specific video clip on the elimination of pinch points from the kick-off. My guess is that will be the big hitter during inspection on all bots.

[KTorak]

Many teams are gonna be hit with the shielding policy and won't pass initial inspection...atleast thats what I think. And by adding shielding, many teams will then be over weight...

As for the update...there is nothing new, just reiterating important rules. As for the flag holder...thats something we're gonna do at GLR sometime on Thursday before we go to pass inspection that afternoon.

[Nitroxextreme]

When looking at many of the designs....at least the pitcher style ones. I found that it was difficult (if not impossible) to shield them completely without having them set back within a box.

Most of the wheel is begin used by the robot and I know that a team will not completely redesign so they use "less" wheel.

Simply put....you cant shield the pieces of the wheel you are using, unless the whole robot is a big box with holes cut for the ball the shoot out of. The holes would have to be covered with some sort of flexible protection.

I'm going way out there with this....then you would then have to increase wheel speed to account for friction with protection and therefore increasing the safety issue. While completely abiding to the FIRST rules.

[BoyWithCape195]

In the video seen here, what do you think would need to be covered to abide by the "shielding" rule. Is the whole system a shooter or just the bottom roller?

http://www.team195.com/files/195roller.wmv

[gburlison]

Since this is a safety issue, I expect FIRST to enforce the rule about shielding the shooter. I expect a lot of teams will be adding guards when the get to the competitions. Hopefully FIRST will not penalize teams that read the rules and designed a shield in from the beginning.

[nehalita]

Can you imagine the weight problems that sprout from fixing these robots?

Edit: Yea, KTorak brought this up, too

[Scott Shaw 237]

Maybe Im not reading it correctly but doenst the rule state and must be shielded such that the mechanism cannot make contact with
other ROBOTs. which means that if your shooter wheels don't exceed past the edge of your robot, then technically you are ok? I understand this can cause some protection for pickup devices, but the shooter itself shouldn't be too bad as long as its not at the very edge of your robot.

[BoyWithCape195]

Please note that just having your shooting mechanism contained inside the starting
envelope is not sufficient. The mechanism must be both contained AND shielded. A good
shield would prevent a bystander from inadvertently touching the mechanism.

The bystander part is new

[B. Flaherty]

Maybe I am just naive, but I don't see how this is such a problem given the fact that the rule was there since the beginning. The only parts that are able to be touched by a human on our bot are the two exit paths of the ball. One of them someone would have to go out of their way to touch, and the other is still guarded pretty well. We added a "face mask" onto the front of the wheel. Pictured here. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44351) This should comply with the rule about our mechanism not being able to make contact with another ROBOT.

[nehalita]

umm, you can't exactly see it clearly here, but our robot is on the right:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?s=&action=single&picid=13029&direction=DESC&sort=date&perrow=4&trows=10&quiet=Verbose
and the wheels are expose but they're essentially inside of the robot. would we still need guards over the wheels?

[Joe J.]

The rule has been there since Kickoff, It isn't FIRST's fault if the shooters arn't gaurded. Our shooter wheel is mounted in a cage that will have screen door material (pet-proof Plastic stuff) covering it. So its protected from hits and fingers.

[ttedrow]

I seem to remember this subject in the kickoff video. The example used in the video did not have shielding but they used that as an example of something to consider.

As an inspector, I will consider a high speed spinning parts without shielding a potential safety hazard. As such, these robots will not be allowed to practice or compete untill they are safe.

[BoyWithCape195]

What if they are spinning, just not fast at all?

[henryBsick]

This (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43369&highlight=rule+change+design) thread has been around for 2 weeks now. It talks about this (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=508) Q&A and involves rule <S03>

Rule <S03>:
Shooter Mechanism must remain inside the ROBOT - Any mechanism used to throw balls must be
contained within the original 28” x 38” x 60”starting envelope of the ROBOT and must be shielded such
that the mechanism cannot make contact with other ROBOTs. A ROBOT that violates this rule will be
considered unsafe per <S01>.

[s_forbes]

It seems that the main problem with this new rule is the bystander part. Most robots are already sufficiently shielded to prevent spinning parts from running into another robot, but parts have to be somewhat exposed in order to do their job.

How shielded does it need to be to prevent a bystander hurting themselves? Are the bystanders being safe themselves? Our robot has some holes that you can get at the rollers through if you try. Would this be in violation?

[Nita]

I knew about the rule, but wasn't sure of how much needed to be shielded...

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f104/Nita1190/Anonobots/Anonobots-41.jpg

[AmyPrib]

Here's my interpretation.... If a robot cannot come in contact with it, then it's probably likely that a bystander cannot inadvertently touch it. That's the key word.

I think they threw everyone for a loop with the bystander part in that the original rule only states that it cannot come in contact with other robots. But I would think that if it's within your starting envelope, and it's not able to come in contact with another robot, then you're probably safe with the bystander. Think of it as... if a bystander falls over, or gets off balance and accidentally bumps into it, puts their hand down and comes in contact with it, get hurts, etc.... If not, then you're probably ok.

Guess we'll find out what the inspectors interpretation is.

[KenWittlief]

Bystanders? what if your shooter wheel rips apart and pieces go flying? do you have enough shielding to keep nearby refs, ball spotters, camera crews.... from gettting hit by flying chunks of plastic or metal?

can parts fly off your bot into the stands, where spectators are not wearing safety glasses?

what about the teams who stand next to the field during the matches? if your bot shooter self destructs will they be hit in the face?

I think that is what they mean by 'by-standers'

[BoyWithCape195]

In this picture, would the whole thing be considered the shooter, or only the bottom roller. The bottom roller is what gives the balls the "final impulse" so I would assume that that would be the only part considered the shooter and therefore the only part that needs to be shielded.

http://static.flickr.com/30/101411591_da8249a69c.jpg

[Heretic121]

The bystander part is new
cause we all know that touching spinning wheels is the right thing to do to slow them down right!?!? =D

honestly i dont know how our team would shield our shooter w/o messing with the mechanics itself of the shooter *aka having to redising*

FIRST really needs to come out and define "gaurded" because like a lot of people said there are so many gray areas...

if you have like a box frame and the shotter is inlet about 6"+ is it no shieled so that a "bystandard" would have to REACH INTO the bot to touch it?...

so im still very mad about the addition to the rule... i think it can cause a lot of problems to a lot of teams very easily because i dont think the rule was well enough written on day 1...

[KenWittlief]

so im still very mad about the addition to the rule... i think it can cause a lot of problems to a lot of teams .....

Bottom line is this is an issue all teams will have to deal with.

How mad will you be if some 5 year old kid sticks his hand into a robot at a regional, or off season event, looses his arm, sues FIRST for $100M

and the entire FIRST organization comes to a bitter end?

In every engineering disciple safety is the primary concern, always.

Some of these robots with double CIM motor shooters - thats 1 HP available to the spinning wheels. Getting a hand or finger caught in a 1HP motor/mechanism would be very much like reaching under a running lawn mower and trying to grab the blade.

[Rombus]

In this picture, would the whole thing be considered the shooter, or only the bottom roller. The bottom roller is what gives the balls the "final impulse" so I would assume that that would be the only part considered the shooter and therefore the only part that needs to be shielded.


If you are talking about the bottom white roller, infact the entire mechanism you have there from the bottom white roller and the top white roller would be conisdered the shooting mechanism according to:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=563
since the green strings are touching the ball while the final impulse is being applied. (This is all IMHO though, i could be wrong)

And to anyone getting mad about this rule:
This is a safty issue. Plain and simple. This years robots could be alot more dangerous due to the high velocity spinning masses, and with complicated systems to move balls. So its better to be overshielded than under IMHO

[BoyWithCape195]

I'm just confused how, even though the mechanism works the exact same way as a gatherer as it does a shooter, it is "unsafe" when being run in reverse.

[Rombus]

I'm just confused how, even though the mechanism works the exact same way as a gatherer as it does a shooter, it is "unsafe" when being run in reverse.

Well, here is a question for you, Is there any reason for the front of the robot not to have a shield? I dunno if you have a drawbridge or something im not seeing. But if you dont need that front part of the system exposed, i would just toss a piece of plexi over it to be sure.

[sanddrag]

this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pictures.php?action=single&picid=13126) is how you shield a shooter.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Well, here is a question for you, Is there any reason for the front of the robot not to have a shield? I dunno if you have a drawbridge or something im not seeing. But if you dont need that front part of the system exposed, i would just toss a piece of plexi over it to be sure.
Yeah, as Pete said in the beginning of the thread its not hard at all to zip tie some .02" polycarb film on any exposed part of the shooter. We will be doing this for sure.

[Kris Verdeyen]

I think it's important to note that the rule hasn't been changed. Despite what is stated in the update, "A good shield would prevent a bystander's inadvertent little finger from being mangled..." (of course I'm paraphrasing), the rule says "other ROBOTS". Nonetheless, I fully expect that we'll have to add some kind of shield to the ol' Fingerchopper ourselves. And if they really make lexan in 20 thou thicknesses, I think we'll be fine. It won't make our robot any uglier, that's for sure.

As it is now, just wait and see, and enjoy your post-ship time dividend.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

And if they really make lexan in 20 thou thicknesses, I think we'll be fine. It won't make our robot any uglier, that's for sure.


http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3369

Under the "Film" section. Looking at the specs for that thickness, I dont think anyone would have any problems with it breaking or sheering.

[Paul Copioli]

Kris,

They make Polycarb film in .005" thicknesses, too. We use a lot of the 0.020" polycarb on our robot. It is thick enough to rivet and very thin.

The only issue I have is the rewording. If they meant bystanders, they should have said bystanders on day one. My initial reading of the rule was they didn't want shooters that acted like weapons. How can you shield the shooting part of a two wheel shooter?

Also, by actually having the shielding on a two wheel vertical shooter you can cause more damage. I have noticed that when I touch the wheels as they are spinning, they push my hand away (out from the center, which makes sense). If I had shields on the outside of the wheels, my finger would probably get stuck between the shield and the wheel.

We will do whatever the inspectors want us to, but right now our shooter is in the middle of the robot 5' high.

-Paul

[Gdeaver]

It's just not the shooter. Drive chain and belts need to be shielded to. This has always been looked at by inspectors. I saw many examples of exposed drive components. I hope they are covered in the shipped robot.

[Peter Matteson]

In this picture, would the whole thing be considered the shooter, or only the bottom roller. The bottom roller is what gives the balls the "final impulse" so I would assume that that would be the only part considered the shooter and therefore the only part that needs to be shielded.

http://static.flickr.com/30/101411591_da8249a69c.jpg

To be safe we shielded our similar mechanisms all the to the point only a ball contacting the roller from underneath can touch it trying to do a little CYA.

I suggested the .020" poly to aid anyone who thinks they might have an issue. It's better to be prepared.

[Rob]

I have a question for those in this thread who are going to be robot inspectors...

Would the shooter in this linked picture count as "properly shielded" or should we plan on having some work to do on Thursday morning to get it up to safety standards?

http://www.joemenassa.com/Images/ROBOTICS2006/day45/pages/IMG_5716.html

I know its just opinion at this point and we won't be sure until the event, but it would be nice to have some visual examples to help teams out.

Thanks,

Rob

[Andy Baker]

I have a question for those in this thread who are going to be robot inspectors...

Would the shooter in this linked picture count as "properly shielded" or should we plan on having some work to do on Thursday morning to get it up to safety standards?

http://www.joemenassa.com/Images/ROBOTICS2006/day45/pages/IMG_5716.html


I'm the head inspector for the Boilermaker Regional, and this looks very well protected. Good job.

Andy B.

[Peter Matteson]

I have a question for those in this thread who are going to be robot inspectors...

Would the shooter in this linked picture count as "properly shielded" or should we plan on having some work to do on Thursday morning to get it up to safety standards?

http://www.joemenassa.com/Images/ROBOTICS2006/day45/pages/IMG_5716.html

I know its just opinion at this point and we won't be sure until the event, but it would be nice to have some visual examples to help teams out.

Thanks,

Rob

Not an inspector, but that is an impressive job.

[Jack Jones]

... Our robot has some holes that you can get at the rollers through if you try. Would this be in violation?

Off hand, I would say no. It would not be a violation because the word they used was "inadvertent". Trying is not inadvertent.

OTHO, that word and others, as we have learned, are subject to change in future updates :(

[Travis Hoffman]

The bystander part is new

2000 RPM flywheels are serious dangers to bystanders and even pit crew folks who may temporarily lose focus on what they are doing. The pits are a hectic, loud, and raucous place to be, and no team can totally eliminate distractions from popping up in their pit environment. It is imperative that these shooters be guarded so that no one can *accidentally* get their fingers or hair caught in one of these high speed devices during testing or demonstrations.

This comes up all the time in industrial machine design. I don't want to get into all the details and regulations, but we must guard our machines in a way such that no operator or bystander who while doing their normal work or while becoming temporarily distracted can accidentally place their extremities in a position to get pinched, cut, smashed, crushed, etc. We regularly review and revise our designs to eliminate pinch points and other safety hazards during the machine development process.

In many cases, we do have to cut openings into our main guarding to permit flow of parts in process (analogous to the balls we are loading into the launcher and shooting out of it) into and out of the assembly area (for example, think of loading a part into a nest on a sliding tray and then pushing the tray through the cutout in the guard and into the machine). The size of these openings is small and the shape often conforms to the parts being pushed through them. In addition, the guarded area is designed large enough to position the dangerous mechanisms a minimum safe distance from any openings in the guard where accidental human entry can easily be achieved. Can a person intentionally try to stick a hand through the opening and cause injury to themselves? With effort, yes, they can, but that person needs to be in a psychiatric ward, not on a FIRST team.

I feel that if a robot is guarded in this same manner, you will pass inspection. Depending on the Launcher mechanisms that are only a few inches away from the ball openings cut into in your guarded area could become prime targets for inspector flagging.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

FIRST is only looking to make sure things are safe.

At the regionals there will be a lot of activity around each robot, and not all that activity will be from people who understand the forces that flywheels (and other devices) can produce.

I know that I will (at some point) bring my 5 year old daughter down into the pits to see (and touch) the robot. As such, I will ensure that she cannot get caught in any of the machinery.

As Mentors and teammembers it is our responsibility to protect those around our creations. Guarding is the way to do this. If you are in doubt as to whether or not your shielding is adequate, then it probaby needs to be made better.

Lets all have a safe and fun set of regionals.

[KenWittlief]

If you want a good example of what 'shielded' is look at a power miter saw.

These things have guards that cover the blade, and as you push the blade down the guard retracts so you can cut the wood.

Also, when you let go of the trigger the motor is dynamically braked, so the blade stops spinning in about 1 second (instead of coasting to a stop over several seconds).

High RPM spinning wheels are especially hazardous because:

1. you cant tell they are spinning by looking at them
2. with electric motors they can be very quiet, so you cant tell by listening either
3. they store a lot of rotational inertia
C. unless you dynamically brake the wheel, it will continue to spin for quite a while after the robot has been turned off.

[mathking]

I am betting that there will be a lot of teams doing frantic additions to their robots for shielding, but that most robots are going to pass inspection. There are probably a number who are like us, with shielding that is easy to remove and put back on, in order to satisfy the rule you have to be able to get balls out by hand at the end of a match. Though we haven't yet had a ball stick in the shooter, it has come close once or twice when powering down.

I think some of my students posted a pic of our robot without the shielding, because it is hard on a photo to see the shooter otherwise. Our shield is essentially a plastic mesh (small diameter openings) attached to the gun and grabber mounts. It can come off and go back quickly. We also noted that when it gets hit at high speed and breaks, it wraps around the shooter and slows it down. As opposed to a solid shield which might break off and go flying someplace.

[Jay Trzaskos]

I made a mistake in even replying to this thread. I need to take my own advice and re-read the FIRST manual. I did something I never should have and posted when I was tired and out of it. Sorry again.

Jay Trzaskos

[Elgin Clock]

Can you imagine the weight problems that sprout from fixing these robots?

And the fact that because the ship deadlined passed before the update came out, you are technically in violation if you try to stay legal now? Oopsies..

Let's see..

A) Leave safety guard off in hopes of not breaking the "ship everything with your robot that will go on your robot" rule....

B) Make safety guard, break shipping rule, but conform to (post shipping newly ratified) safety rule..

I'm guessing that since the official motto has been SAFETY FIRST these past couple years, B superceeds A..


Wow, we got some Asminov type robot rules goin' on right there now don't we? :yikes:

[DanDon]

Hi all, would this be considered adequately shielded? http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44516

The upper shooter is covered with netting, such that it is impossible for fingers to get in, without purposely making a hole in the net, and the lower shooter is protected by the metal net and the piece of extrusion, such that without purposely trying to get in it is very improbable that it will happen.

I'd appreciate any replies, be they on the safety of the bot, and about the bot itself.

Thanks,

[KenWittlief]

And the fact that because the ship deadlined passed before the update came out, you are technically in violation if you try to stay legal now? Oopsies..

Let's see..

A) Leave safety guard off in hopes of not breaking the "ship everything with your robot that will go on your robot" rule....

B) Make safety guard, break shipping rule, but conform to (post shipping newly ratified) safety rule..


C) Modify your robot on the first day of your 1st regional to get it to pass inspection, like every other team does for many reasons, which is perfectly within the rules.

[Bill Moore]

2000 RPM flywheels are serious dangers to bystanders and even pit crew folks who may temporarily lose focus on what they are doing. The pits are a hectic, loud, and raucous place to be, and no team can totally eliminate distractions from popping up in their pit environment. It is imperative that these shooters be guarded so that no one can *accidentally* get their fingers or hair caught in one of these high speed devices during testing or demonstrations.
Travis nails the major concern around bystanders near rotating equipment. It is the hair, or the drawstrings on your hood, or your shop apron strings, or your glasses straps, etc. Any loosely hanging thread-like item that is attached to your body. You will never know it has become entangled in the rotating device until you have already been injured.

Do the math, Travis used 2000 RPM for the flywheels. That's over 33 rotations per second. If something gets wrapped around a 1/2" shaft (assuming that is the smallest diameter of a rotating object), the object will wrap up at the rate of 52" per second (about 1.3 meters/sec). A larger diameter just wraps up even faster. You don't have time to react to this occurrence, even if you shut down the split-second it starts. You must be proactive about the problem.

Unfortunately, as some folks in industry already know, this exact incident took place recently to an employee at a Shell facility. He was operating a hand grinder on a tank, and the drawstring of his hood became entangled in the grinder. He did receive significant injuries and was transported to a hospital for care.

[Elgin Clock]

And the fact that because the ship deadlined passed before the update came out, you are technically in violation if you try to stay legal now? Oopsies..

I apologize in general. The update came out after we packed up our robot cause of shipping constraints. But well within the 24 hours to midnight (which Fed-Ex will not pickup that late anyways, and no students can work on/pack the pack the robot the next day because they are in school or in the late hours of night so they can sleep well, get good grades, and can participate, and that's just how we build. We don't see a rule update come out (less than 24 hours in advance of shipping), and make our mentors (not the students) change the bot just because we have to comply.

We packed the crate at 9:43pm on Monday btw in case anyone wants to question that.

[Tim Arnold]

I have a feeling we will be tired at inspecting bots for shielding, but in that we have a rather unique bot I figured I would ask regardless.

Here is a picture:
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5011/botshielding3dq.jpg

The red squares represent lexan shielding that has been added since that picture was taken. The yellow arrow illustrates where the mesh has been upgraded to prevent fingers from entering the firing area. The blue line shows the estimated trajectory (from memory).

What do you think? I do not see how we could shield better without blocking our firing mechanism. Covering the exit slot is not practical as we do not know exactly where the ball will exit. If you reach in the slot with your arm (assuming we are firing) you could potentially get whacked pretty good when that arm swings around...

[Pat Major]

I would hope that with all the confusion that update 11 has caused, update 12 would allow teams to work on shields now instead of waiting until the Thursday of the first competition. Safety FIRST is the number one consideration.

[Luke]

I would hope that with all the confusion that update 11 has caused, update 12 would allow teams to work on shields now instead of waiting until the Thursday of the first competition. Safety FIRST is the number one consideration.


All teams still have a 10hr fix-it window after the ship to correct the
problem if they have it.


FIX-IT-WINDOWS – Two 5-hour work periods following the deadline for shipping the robot, or following the
close of a regional competition, in which ALL teams may manufacture parts in preparation for future
competitions. During the FIX-IT WINDOWS, software for either the robot or operator interface may be
developed without restriction. The FIX-IT WINDOWS are limited to single continuous time periods with a
maximum duration of 5 hours each. Part or all of the team may participate in the work conducted during this
period. The FIX-IT WINDOWS may not be subdivided into multiple work sessions of lesser duration.

[Pat Major]

Please note: R17 Fabrication of UPGRADE PARTS is not permitted during this period.

[Bill Moore]

Please note: R17 Fabrication of UPGRADE PARTS is not permitted during this period.
Pat, this is one you should take quickly to the FIRST Q&A forum. Personally, I would not consider "shields" to be an upgrade item, provided that they only act as a "Safety Barrier" and do not functionally improve your robot.

If you built additional mechanisms into the shields beyond a Safety Barrier, then I would consider this a violation.

It's a "letter of the law" vs. "intent of the law" argument, and only FIRST can provide an answer.

[Pat Major]

I have already tried that and the QA is closed to new questions. I have contacted our regional director with the hope that she can get FIRST to open a window for shield construction.

Also...am I just missing it, or is there no mention of shields on the “2006 FIRST Robotics Competition – Inspection Check List”. We debated installing one and even have a mockup that we made before we shipped. It was not an item on the list so we thought we were ok.

[Bill Moore]

I have already tried that and the QA is closed to new questions. I have contacted our regional director with the hope that she can get FIRST to open a window for shield construction.

Also...am I just missing it, or is there no mention of shields on the “2006 FIRST Robotics Competition – Inspection Check List”. We debated installing one and even have a mockup that we made before we shipped. It was not an item on the list so we thought we were ok.
I guess that's a tick mark for the list of items that FIRST can improve upon that we send after every competition season.

"Keep the Forum Q&A open until the first weekend of competition."

[Katie Reynolds]

Also...am I just missing it, or is there no mention of shields on the “2006 FIRST Robotics Competition – Inspection Check List”. We debated installing one and even have a mockup that we made before we shipped. It was not an item on the list so we thought we were ok. Nope, no specific mention of shields on the checklist. However, having a shield does fall under safety and is mentioned a few times . Item #16 on the checklist says, "unsafe additional parts" are specifically prohibited and, according to the manual, (Section 5.1.2 and, of course <S03>) an unshielded shooter is unsafe.

[RebelWithARobot]

Off hand, I would say no. It would not be a violation because the word they used was "inadvertent". Trying is not inadvertent.

OTHO, that word and others, as we have learned, are subject to change in future updates :(

there is a rule about what an "entaglement hazard is"

It says abunch of stuff about voluminous materials and what not, but the important part here is in that rule it says that holes on the outside of your robot or used as shielding for pinch points must not have holes with a cross section LARGER than 5"square

so if you are shielding your robot make sure the diameter is no large than 2.25" of any lightening hole you make

[Elgin Clock]

"Keep the Forum Q&A open until the first weekend of competition."

As long as updates are coming out, I think the Q&A should be open.

I would tend to vote to have it stay open until the Championship Event is over.

[GaryVoshol]

I have already tried that and the QA is closed to new questions.Did they just close it today? I posted a question last night that was answered.

Or do you not have the login authorization to post?

Edit: following question posted:
Some teams apparently have been surprised by the requirement of shields presented in Update 11. Given that this update appeared immediately before Ship, they are concerned about what they can do prior to their first competition.

The post-ship FIX-IT WINDOW does not allow for creation of UPGRADE parts. Could a safety shield fabricated in the FIX-IT WINDOW be exempted from being considered an UPGRADE?

[Elgin Clock]

Did they just close it today? I posted a question last night that was answered.

Or do you not have the login authorization to post?

Edit: following question posted:


Some teams apparently have been surprised by the requirement of shields presented in Update 11. Given that this update appeared immediately before Ship, they are concerned about what they can do prior to their first competition.

The post-ship FIX-IT WINDOW does not allow for creation of UPGRADE parts. Could a safety shield fabricated in the FIX-IT WINDOW be exempted from being considered an UPGRADE?

I wouldn't count on it going by a PM I got after venting... Hope for the best, but expect the worst and start preparing to "modify" your bot on Thursday.

Is "adding" or "upgrading" equal to "modifying"???
I guess we soon shall see.

[MrForbes]

what about making it actually do what you wanted it to do in the first place? is that fixing? or upgrading?

my take is that if you didn't have the feature in the robot by ship time, you can't add that feature....but if you had the feature, and it just didn't work proplerly, then you can fix it.

sound good?

[GaryVoshol]

what about making it actually do what you wanted it to do in the first place? is that fixing? or upgrading?

my take is that if you didn't have the feature in the robot by ship time, you can't add that feature....but if you had the feature, and it just didn't work proplerly, then you can fix it.

sound good?
Sounds good, but don't count on it.

REPLACEMENT means exactly that - a one-for-one replacement with no change in design, materials, or functionality.

If you are going to UPGRADE - whether that means add something or just change it to make it work - you can bring the materials with you to the competition and fabricate it there.

[Kims Robot]

As an inspector, I will consider a high speed spinning parts without shielding a potential safety hazard. As such, these robots will not be allowed to practice or compete untill they are safe.

Technically, I believe by the rules (section 7.5.1 & 7.5.2), you cannot dissallow a team from practicing. I also checked the Q&A, and the inspection list, neither of which say anything about having to have the robot ready for competition to practice.

There were inspectors at the Buckeye Regional who tried to say that we could not compete in the practice round without passing inspection (when in fact we had already been to FLR & passed there). This has NEVER been a rule. FIRST knows that teams are going to be finishing their robots on thursday, as many things fall through the cracks, and teams scramble to finish and practice.

Now, on the flip side, I do think teams need to be insanely careful around these spinning objects... but for us, we have a dual wheel like Paul mentioned, ours is direct driven (no chains or sprockets to pinch), so it would be really hard to actually get your hand caught in it. That said, the first thing we are doing when we get in on thursday is throwing guards on the wheels.

But be wary that if you are going to try to force a team to pass parts of inspection to go on the field without an official FIRST rules, you are going to end up with a lot of angry teams.

[Kims Robot]

If you are going to UPGRADE - whether that means add something or just change it to make it work - you can bring the materials with you to the competition and fabricate it there.

If I am reading the rules correctly, you can make UPGRADES following the first weekend of regionals, during that next 2 5 hour blocks. So if you arent in the first weekend of regionals, just make replacement parts for this week, and then make your upgrades following the first set of regionals.

[Tim Delles]

We also read the rules, and believe that you can make parts following all of the regionals in the time frame that FIRST gives you.

[Don Wright]

If I am reading the rules correctly, you can make UPGRADES following the first weekend of regionals, during that next 2 5 hour blocks. So if you arent in the first weekend of regionals, just make replacement parts for this week, and then make your upgrades following the first set of regionals.

Specifically:

<R20> During the “FIX-IT WINDOW” following each Regional Competition weekend: During this period, all
teams (not just those teams attending a Regional Competition) may utilize one or two 5-hour FIX-ITWINDOWS
to manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and develop software for
their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site).

and

<R29> Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS,
REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or
upgrade their robot at the competition site.

[The Lucas]

Looks like FIRST has a decision on shield construction during the FIX-IT Window http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=753

Some teams apparently have been surprised by the requirement of shields presented in Update 11. Given that this update appeared immediately before Ship, they are concerned about what they can do prior to their first competition.

It would be inappropriate to change the rules regarding fabrication schedules and definitions after the robots have been shipped. Update #11 highlighted an existing rule that has remained unchanged since the kick-off. We believed it appropriate to highlight this rule after making the observation at several scrimmage events that some teams were not in compliance. Teams must bring their robots in compliance with all rules - including Rule <S03> - before they will pass inspection and be allowed to compete. If necessary, they will have all day on Thursday at the competitions to do this.

So don't forget to pack your lexan for your first competition!