10 ball auto mode

[nuggetsyl]

Every one talks about being able to hit 10 for 10 in auto mode what do you think? I think this year Many robots could have hit 10 for 10 but defence auto modes will stop most of that.

shaun

[Ryan M.]

I'm willing to bet that defensive robots will be extremely ineffective in autonomous, at least until the very end when people know what their opponents will do. Even then, though, blockers will have to get very lucky...

[Donut]

All a robot has to do is run reverse towards the opponent's starting positions to severely hamper the average autonomous mode. Remember, everyone who's been testing autonomous modes has been doing so with 1 robot on the field, theirs. I'm not sure how many are designed with compensating for a hit in mind.

[Tim566]

All a robot has to do is run reverse towards the opponent's starting positions to severely hamper the average autonomous mode. Remember, everyone who's been testing autonomous modes has been doing so with 1 robot on the field, theirs. I'm not sure how many are designed with compensating for a hit in mind.
I'm not certain on this because I don't think we actually ever tested it but we don't need to move from start just aim and shoot from where we start.

[Jeff K.]

You didn't specify where the 10 balls would go.:p

We have gotten 10 balls into the corner goals during autonomous, but that was during testing, and not in an actual competition. Hopefully we have similar results.:rolleyes:

[Jherbie53]

The teams that can make 10 of 10 most likely will not move very far from there starting positions. If you have to move to the canter of the field and then turn and face the goal, you wasted 4 or 5 seconds lining up you robot. Another down side of moving to the center is that the people trying defense during autonomous won't have to go as far to get to you.

Making 10 of 10 isn't that hard. If you can line up if your robot and start firing right away, and not get bumped by your alliance partner, 10 of 10 should be somewhat easy, and take 4-7 seconds.

If you're really good, you shoot all your balls as fast as you can not worrying about how many you make. Then you make a dash towards your driver station. If you can human load, you're all ready for the next round, even if you're on defense first. Because just about every team will have to load up after autonomous.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

You are not safe anywhere on the field.

See ya at UTC.

[Greg Marra]

You are not safe anywhere on the field.

See ya at UTC.

I am itching to know what this "dynamic defense" is.

I think that while few teams will be able to score in autonomous mode, those that are able to will be able to score a high percentage of their balls.

[Donut]

If a robot cannot get all 10 of its balls into the center goal within the first 4 seconds (remember, you have to lock on and give your shooter time to get up to speed in that 4 seconds), then there is no gurantee they will get all 10 in. Your average robot will be able to drive from their starting position to their opponent's in 4 seconds, meaning any robot that takes longer than this is susceptable to defense.

Not moving does not ensure you safe from defense either. Although you will be able to start firing sooner since you don't have to move, and you will be further from your opponents than you might otherwise be, you are now in a known location (it's much easier for opponents to simply charge towards your starting position than to drive out in the middle of the field and hope they hit you as you're moving). They can still hit you where you're sitting too; it takes one good hit to turn your robot and make you miss a few of your shots.

I think a good number of robots will be able to shoot into the center goal in auton, but the numbers made will be more like 3-7 in. Those that consistently shoot in 9 or 10 will find those numbers change very quickly when they come under fire from autonomous modes that are simply "drive forward for 10 seconds".

[Jherbie53]

If a robot cannot get all 10 of its balls into the center goal within the first 4 seconds (remember, you have to lock on and give your shooter time to get up to speed in that 4 seconds), then there is no gurantee they will get all 10 in. Your average robot will be able to drive from their starting position to their opponent's in 4 seconds, meaning any robot that takes longer than this is susceptable to defense.

Not moving does not ensure you safe from defense either. Although you will be able to start firing sooner since you don't have to move, and you will be further from your opponents than you might otherwise be, you are now in a known location (it's much easier for opponents to simply charge towards your starting position than to drive out in the middle of the field and hope they hit you as you're moving). They can still hit you where you're sitting too; it takes one good hit to turn your robot and make you miss a few of your shots.

I think a good number of robots will be able to shoot into the center goal in auton, but the numbers made will be more like 3-7 in. Those that consistently shoot in 9 or 10 will find those numbers change very quickly when they come under fire from autonomous modes that are simply "drive forward for 10 seconds".

All of this is true. But no one knows whats going to happen at the competitions. I don't think running into the other team will happen a lot until the finals. Its just not a viable strategy in my mind. If you can't shoot the 3 point goal, and you need to start in one of the back positions so other people can shoot 3 pointers, then defense is probably a good strategy.

But you never know. Defense could decide Nationals. Because until the first competition, nobody really knows how there robot will run with other drivers beating and banging out on the field.

[Biff]

We are designed to shoot with out moving in autonomous. If we can get it all done, and working at our only regional, not moving while shooting should be not an issue. We also shoot from as high as we can manage and have a turret to track the center goal. The load rate for the cannon is in the 3 balls per second range and if the software is coperative the shooter wheels make speed in less than 2 seconds. As I said before we still have some work to get done.

[Swampdude]

Those that consistently shoot in 9 or 10 will find those numbers change very quickly when they come under fire from autonomous modes that are simply "drive forward for 10 seconds".

I think thats a good assessment, and hopefully most teams are taking that autonomous routine seriously. It's very simple, but it's going to be very effective. Unfortunately you're going to miss and nail the wall sometimes, and regardless I think its important to have 1 teammate almost every match that can run an autonomous interference pattern. Scouting will eventually tell you where a team will wind up while they shoot, be it in the start spot or somewhere else. Then you can just point and shoot.
Our bot will be capable of getting 5-10 balls probably every autonomous, but we added sonar to be effective on attacks because we know there's always going to be somebody out there better than us at shooting, hence they can have the prized 1st or 2nd starting position. Also I believe taking out the opponents best shooter is a critical strategy if they can consistently shoot more than you. Although in our case its not worth it to take out a 4 ball shooter when we know we can get a minimum of 5. So it depends.
Also I'm sure for most designs, the closer you get, the more consistent your shots will be. So the teams that shoot from the start spot, not only deal with trajectory/distance issues, they also are sure to get nailed pretty consistently.

[Donut]

Unfortunately you're going to miss and nail the wall sometimes, and regardless I think its important to have 1 teammate almost every match that can run an autonomous interference pattern. Scouting will eventually tell you where a team will wind up while they shoot, be it in the start spot or somewhere else. Then you can just point and shoot.

Exactly, and in reality any team can do this autonomous mode. Have a partner without an auton? Simply have them enter their drive pwms as full forward/reverse in their autonomous routine, line it up on field, and poof! You have one defensive autonomous mode, even if not consistently effective.

I seriously don't know how many teams will take advantage of how easy it is to create a simple defensive autonomous though; 2 years ago you could employ an effective defense by running forward to prevent your opponent from knocking down the ball, yet I do not remember seeing any other teams at Nats do this other than us (of course that was just our division, and some of the matches).

Quick warnings on this though; you do run the risk of damaging your robot by doing the "suicidal charge" (one match 2 years ago had us run a caster full speed into the platform, bending it at a 45 degree angle and severely compromising driving ability). Also, you may have to limit how fast you drive your robot if the refs start flagging teams for high speed ramming in autonomous.

Although in our case its not worth it to take out a 4 ball shooter when we know we can get a minimum of 5. So it depends.

Once regionals get more than halfway through the qualifying rounds, most matches autonomous modes will become...

1. A bunch of robots flying across the field to hit their opponents, with autonomous being decided by 1 or 2 balls.
2. Both teams ignoring defense and having a high scoring shoot out.

But no one knows whats going to happen at the competitions.

True true. We will see starting next week.

[Wayne Doenges]

Let me throw my $0.02 into kitty.

Refer to this rule:
<G22> Intentional ROBOT - ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTs are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed.

I would be very careful about making an autonomous mad dash across the field with the sole purpose of stopping another robot from shooting. If you can get in front of them and stop their shots than I see no problem. But if you miscalculate and damage another bot you may be penalized.

FIRST also mentions long distance, high speed ramming. IMHO I would consider 15 feet long distance.

Also, if another team has a robust bot and can take a hard hit, they may change their autonomous to have your bot hit them in the hopes of you getting the penalty.

[TimCraig]

If we got lined up, I think we could have hit 10 for 10. However, elements of the build team didn't give the software team time to work out the details. A few hours isn't enough to refine an autonomous program. I doubt teams that didn't go for offense will have developed a defensive autonomous strategy.

[George A.]

I think in autonomous mode is when people will have the greatest chance to score through the center goal...from what I've seen from scrimmage videos, whenever someone is going to shoot they're standing still, and not being defended. Granted, during scrimmages people don't play defense so no one breaks...but that's going to be totally different in Regionals and such. A simple bump will be enough to throw off someone's shot.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

[Rick TYler]

elements of the build team didn't give the software team time to work out the details.

I love the way you wrote that. I may put that on a plaque... :)

[nuggetsyl]

Let me throw my $0.02 into kitty.

Refer to this rule:
<G22> Intentional ROBOT - ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTs are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed.

I would be very careful about making an autonomous mad dash across the field with the sole purpose of stopping another robot from shooting. If you can get in front of them and stop their shots than I see no problem. But if you miscalculate and damage another bot you may be penalized.

FIRST also mentions long distance, high speed ramming. IMHO I would consider 15 feet long distance.

Also, if another team has a robust bot and can take a hard hit, they may change their autonomous to have your bot hit them in the hopes of you getting the penalty.
First off i do not think 15 feet from a dead stop is going to be called unless your robot is going really fast. Get used to that because i perdict that 60-70% of robots will do that. All caster bot good luck.

shaun

[Swampdude]

A simple bump will be enough to throw off someone's shot.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

I think thats exactly the case. If you don't have a solid way of holding your ground while you shoot, then you need a turret to shoot under duress. Although I'm wondering in the past even when you assign alliance partners to stick on someone like glue, yet they can't, how consistent Defense will be. A good zone defense would work well. But being right on somebody every time they shoot is harder than it seems. I think teams are going to have better luck if they shoot at the same time to throw off that over zealous defender that can't get 2 at once.
Another prediction I'm thinking might be teams that can shoot a huge amount of balls, but can't do it while defended might lose a lot of stock in the finals picking. They might have amazing statistics, but you'll find those matches were against opponents with poor drive trains/drivers/strategy etc.
Good defenders are a must in this game, and if you're robot is great I would anticipate Simone following you around the whole match every match. Also I think the top alliances will want a solid defender going into finals. I was wrong last year though as it turned out the top finals matches turned out to be a cap fest. I'm curious what Paul Copioli thinks about defense this year since they beat us in the Archimedes finals...

[George A.]

The way I see the finals playing out this year is on an allaince there is

1 robot that's an amazing shooter
1 robot that can hoard the balls and dump in the corner goals AND
1 robot that plays amazing defense but can either shoot/corral but not as effectivly as the other two


I figure that during the first forty seconds that you're on defense and you have three robots defending you, if you have more than one robot shooting at a time then someone is going to miss and waste valuable scoring opporitunities. Where as if you have one shooting, one picking up the missed shots and dumping them into the corner corrals, then you're using every possible chance to score you can get...the final forty might be where having a second shooter comes in handy since you can negotiate with your allaince partners as to who shoots and when...


just my 2 cents...what does everyone think?

[EricH]

A simple bump will be enough to throw off someone's shot.

Am I wrong in thinking this?
Not on the surface...but I'm willing to bet that there are a few teams out there who can compensate for this. Most of them will probably have a turret. You might ruin the aim for one or two balls, but no more.

[Donut]

Most of them will probably have a turret. You might ruin the aim for one or two balls, but no more.

It may be all you need to do is make them miss those one or two to give your alliance the victory. And if you have no autonomous other wise, which would you rather do; sit and watch, or make your alliance have to score 6 points less by making the other alliance miss?

The way I see the finals playing out this year is on an allaince there is

1 robot that's an amazing shooter
1 robot that can hoard the balls and dump in the corner goals AND
1 robot that plays amazing defense but can either shoot/corral but not as effectivly as the other two

I mostly agree; the final alliances will both have a very good shooter and a good corner goal bot. The third bot is questionable though, I think it will depend on what that alliance's strategy is.

[Spikey]

Its possible to get balls in during autonomous, if you search the threads I posted a video of Team 293 hitting 9/10 balls in auto mode. Of course this was without interference, so it is possible, however defense can change that quickly. The key is for teams to have an auto mode that moves away from the starting box to prevent being rammed by a robot driving straight forward.