Imagine: The Next Year's Challenge Unveiled at Championship Closing Ceremonies

[Natchez]

Shhhhhhhhh! I snuck out of the crazy-house for a few minutes to get a hamburger and post this on Chief Delphi. Please don't turn me into the crazy-housekeepers:o

FIRSTers, you may like this crazy idea if

Your grades drop or work suffers too much during the build season
Your children will not talk to you on Valentine's Day because you told them not to talk to strangers
Six weeks plus a bunch of fix-it windows is not enough time to build your robot
It is difficult to get the students engaged in engineering education during the fall
Your team can not attract multi-sport students because FIRST dominates too much time during the spring
...

What if during the Championship Closing Ceremonies in April, Dean, Woody, and Dave unveiled next year's game.

For the sake of discussion, let's forget about the culture shock that we would go through with the transition and focus on whether it would be good or bad for the future of FIRST and engineering education in the World. Here are some Pros and Cons to get the discussion rolling.

Pros Robot could be built as a classroom activity/curriculum
Everyone would be watching the FIRST finals and Closing Ceremonies
More inline with conventional school activities
Students would not suffer major dips in grades
No need for the January kickoff
May be easier to find teachers to support robotics

Cons No FIRST off-season
Too much time to build a 'bot
Mentors from industry may not be as involved


For personal reasons, I'm not a big fan of something like this but it might have merit to get more students involved in engineering education which would result in a stronger future for America.

Gotta go! They are coming to take me away, take me away, take me away todaaaaaaaayy!

What do you think,
Lucien

[Wetzel]

Shhhhhhhhh! I snuck out of the crazy-house for a few minutes to get a hamburger and post this on Chief Delphi. Please don't turn me into the crazy-housekeepers:o
What if during the Championship Closing Ceremonies in April, Dean, Woody, and Dave unveiled next year's game.

Gotta go! They are coming to take me away, take me away, take me away todaaaaaaaayy!

What do you think,
Lucien
I think you are crazy. However, you always seem to have an interesting angle...

Wetzel

[Ryan Foley]

Too much time to build a 'bot

There's never enough time to build a robot technically, you can always improve something.

I think this could be a very interesting idea. I dont know how they would manage to hide the field for 4 days in the middle of the Georgia Dome, but I'm sure they could pull it off.

As for no offseason, thats not necessarily true. Teams could still particpate in off season events for the previous game, and maybe they could be incorperated with new game's practice scrimmages.

Things I like:
-less build season stress
-less daily time commitment (great for college students)
-getting behind schedule isnt as bad
-more time to improve things
-actually have the time to fully design the robot in Inventor, then build it (catch problems on the computer rather than in the real world)
-ability to show potential sponsors the project you are actually working on, not something you have done in the past

Things I dont like:
-now I'll have to wait 8 months to see what everyone else's robot looks like
-summer could be an issue for college mentors + going home (although teams could just wait until the fall)
-FIRST staff may be overloaded (fall has FLL, FVC already).

[dlavery]

Unnhhmmm. No. Just "No."

The biggest problem with this idea - the game for next year would actually have to be designed during this year's robot build/competition season, which is already so massively overloaded that it would never get done. But trying to get it finished would cause the GDC members to undrgo an even more severe mental meltdown than they already do. And it would mean that the entire period between Halloween and New Years Day would suddenly be empty on my calendar. And trust me, the very last thing you want to see is me with time on my hands and access to power tools. So, it ain't going to happen.

Lucien, I am SO going to sick Malcolm on you for even thinking of this! :)

-dave

[Billfred]

Unnhhmmm. No. Just "No."

The biggest problem with this idea - the game for next year would actually have to be designed during this year's robot build/competition season, which is already so massively overloaded that it would never get done. But trying to get it finished would cause the GDC members to undrgo an even more severe mental meltdown than they already do. And it would mean that the entire period between Halloween and New Years Day would suddenly be empty on my calendar. And trust me, the very last thing you want to see is me with time on my hands and access to power tools. So, it ain't going to happen.

Lucien, I am SO going to sick Malcolm on you for even thinking of this! :)

-dave
While I can see the problems with such a grand scheme, Dave, I have to ask--where is the process on the next year's game by the Championship? Not even touched? Vague, "wouldn't-it-be-awesome-if" ideas? Something I'm not even thinking of because I should be asleep?

[Rombus]

I cant see this hapening, It would just be too tempting to start working on your robot before hand, even if it was just a mock up

[Freddy Schurr]

I am thinking not to even reveal the entire game but a simple 20-30 second video clip of you said a clue on what will happen for the 2007 game. Now that would get people interesting and actually think of what will happen!

[KenWittlief]

one of the primary characteristics of FIRST is that it is the most intense 6 weeks most students have ever experienced

if you turn FIRST into a 52 week back burner project I think most of the impact would simmer away.

How many other times have HS students stayed up for 48 or 72 hours (before ship date) and thought it was the greatest thing they ever did?

FIRST pushes students to their personal limit. In a way, its kinda like bootcamp for engineering recruits.

There are plently of other things students can do for the rest of the year related to FIRST.

[the_short1]

There's never enough time to build a robot technically,
Things I like:
-less build season stress
-less daily time commitment (great for college students)
-getting behind schedule isnt as bad
-more time to improve things
-actually have the time to fully design the robot in Inventor, then build it (catch problems on the computer rather than in the real world)


my $0.02
this is exactly what FIRST is all about, building a robot in 6 weeks is half the fun :), the stress, the crunch time, having to make crucial decisons on a whim, unlike real engineering firms that have a much longer deadline, so for those reasons, i DONT like this idea. But its interesting to think about...

[KenWittlief]

my $0.02
...unlike real engineering firms that have a much longer deadline ...

much longer? at my company we are doing 3 month project cycles, thats 13 weeks!

[Éowyn]

We definitely need the off-season for the engineers to recover from their heart attacks. ;)

[petek]

If we did this, where would the students learn that they can do the impossible?

I agree with Ken that the 6-week build season is one of the things that defines FRC - and separates it from FVC and other competitions. I worry that an unpleasant artifact of a longer build season would be greater differentiation between the haves and have-nots. Teams with greater engineering and financial resources would use the time to improve and refine their machines and driver's skills, while the teams with limited resources might not be able to improve that much.

Since there are so many off-season events already, how about an off-season series and offChampionship for those who want to keep it going all year?

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Simple reply!

If one 6-week bootcamp is good...then 2 or 3 are better.

Fall season game introduced in ATL (or summer season game), then the next game is introduced at the finals of the next season.

Pros -
With multiple game seasons, Rookies entering at the beginning of a 6-week build won't feel as intidimidated as if they enter at the beginning of a 52-week build
Kids can still do the impossible - twice over!
More reach to multisport athletes - some people who can't compete in Spring can compete in Winter.

Cons -
So stressful...

I am not saying this is the best idea, but while we're being crazy, why not suggest it?

[GaryVoshol]

Cons -
So stressful...Who's paying for it? Both for teams to compete, and for FIRST to put it on?

[Rick TYler]

I would like to see a fall FVC season as the "JV" program to FRC in the spring. We have quite a few students who even think they would rather work in 2-4 person teams on FVC projects than in a 25-person team on FRC. They are willing to trade off the larger excitement of FRC for a more collaborative, hands-on, and smaller-group experience of FVC. Also, it is a LOT more practical for teams that don't raise $25000 a year. If current costs hold true, it looks like you can field a competitive FVC robot for a tenth the cost of an FRC program.

FVC tournaments also fit in school gyms and smaller venues that FRC. Overall, I suspect that FVC will become the growth program in FIRST, and FRC will continue to appeal to big-bux teams with large, sophisticated mentor groups.

Or is this off-topic for this thread ... :rolleyes:

[CourtneyB]

When do they usually figure out the next years game?

[Alan Anderson]

When do they usually figure out the next years game?
I don't know about "them", but I usually figure out a game sometime around mid-day on Saturday at the Championship event.

[Nawaid Ladak]

why not do simething like this.

First saturday in August: Kickoff event

8 week period to build robot

Ship Date early October. with fix it windows until December and animation/charimans award etc due in December.

Regionals begin in January

10 Week period for regionals, therefore more scouting and team building is possible.

Championship: Late April, as always


This way, you get everything, a FIRST off-season, a reasonable build season. time for Animation etc. to do their thing...therefore, having more hands working on the bot. more weeks of regional action, so that scouting is more possible. and have the championship event where it belongs. One thing that would change in my little perfect world. Championship event would be called CHAMPIONSHIP WEEK, starting on monday and ending on saturday. (we need more matches and more room if we are going to grow. the georgia dome can't be our home forever. we need to build a custom FIRST stadium. in Manchester to go along with FIRST Place and the Hall Of Fame.) I can imagine 100,000 people in that stadium, and see millions watching around the world, because, this plan would give more time to Robotics and the Media to expose it.

btw. who needs the superbowl...it's now in april....and in ATL
Pepsi. please invest the 2.5 Million you wasted for that 30 second frame over here, cuz dis b da new $h1+

[Andy Grady]

Unnhhmmm. No. Just "No."

The biggest problem with this idea - the game for next year would actually have to be designed during this year's robot build/competition season, which is already so massively overloaded that it would never get done. But trying to get it finished would cause the GDC members to undrgo an even more severe mental meltdown than they already do. And it would mean that the entire period between Halloween and New Years Day would suddenly be empty on my calendar. And trust me, the very last thing you want to see is me with time on my hands and access to power tools. So, it ain't going to happen.

Lucien, I am SO going to sick Malcolm on you for even thinking of this! :)

-dave

Dave,

I have an easy solution for you...

Second GDC!

Two game design committees for two competition games...hell, I'll volunteer! ;)

[irishninja]

If they annouce anything annouce the VEX and then have VEX final competitions on kickoff. Kickoff is a party on my team. Absolutely everyone brings their entire family and lots of food and as soon as we see the game we go eat and discuss and then we all pile into a calssroom and have an organized discussion. I wouldn't want to take that away for antyhing,

[Simon Strauss]

although i completely agree with Dave on the answer of NO, this crazy idea of yours did get me thinking, what if the game were given maybe a week or so before teams received the KOP (then 6 build weeks of course). My reasoning for thinking that this might be beneficial is because not only would it preserve the excitement of crunch time in build, it would also greatly minimize what i see as the greatest fault of my team and I'm sure many others, a lack of planning and a proper design phase. It would allow for teams like mine who are usually way to unprepared and short handed to CAD, inventor or even fully plan out a robot before we build it the time to do so, knowing the game and pieces usable in the bot then the traditional six weeks of insomnia.

[Dan Petrovic]

I like the idea, but at the same time I don't.

Everyone needs a break. Even from FIRST. Build Season is clearly the most stressful time of the year for serious FIRSTers. Only having one a year would also give time for mini competitions.

I do count down the days until kickoff. By the time I start doing so it's already September/October and there's no time for anything.

The year simply isn't long enough

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

why not do simething like this.

First saturday in August: Kickoff event

8 week period to build robot

Ship Date early October. with fix it windows until December and animation/charimans award etc due in December.

Regionals begin in January

10 Week period for regionals, therefore more scouting and team building is possible.

Championship: Late April, as always

I think you have good intentions here :). However, may I recommend a variation in your plan? Make Championships earlier. We don't need a 10 week period for regionals - part of the excitement is seeing your friends. This year, ATL falls on the exam weeks of many universities. Many teams with college students as mentors might have trouble with this.

[Pavan Dave]

why not do simething like this.

First saturday in August: Kickoff event

8 week period to build robot

Ship Date early October. with fix it windows until December and animation/charimans award etc due in December.

Regionals begin in January

10 Week period for regionals, therefore more scouting and team building is possible.

Championship: Late April, as always

This way, you get everything, a FIRST off-season, a reasonable build season. time for Animation etc. to do their thing...therefore, having more hands working on the bot. more weeks of regional action, so that scouting is more possible. and have the championship event where it belongs. One thing that would change in my little perfect world. Championship event would be called CHAMPIONSHIP WEEK, starting on monday and ending on saturday. (we need more matches and more room if we are going to grow. the georgia dome can't be our home forever. we need to build a custom FIRST stadium. in Manchester to go along with FIRST Place and the Hall Of Fame.) I can imagine 100,000 people in that stadium, and see millions watching around the world, because, this plan would give more time to Robotics and the Media to expose it.

Actually IM up for this idea. I like the main fact that we have more time and its during a less key season of the school year although marching band takes up alot of time, I think this is a great idea.

I also am up with a summer event for FIRST. A competition on a lower scale with less materials and more limitations that is as intensive but is more lighter on the wallet for some of the other teams I have been talking with on AIM. Also it would give people something to due during the summer, and since most people are not doing anything anyways it would allow more participation and a greater outreach of engineering and science.

-Pavan

[devicenull]

We have enough problems getting people to show up for 6 weeks.

Also, no one has mentioned the fact it would be very, very difficult for people to get into schools over the summer.

A large part of the fun is doing everything in 6 weeks... Sorry, I'd prefer not longer seasons.