Disappointment (long)

[Chris27]

[some edits] also please don't reply if you won't read it all some people are getting the wrong impression by only reading one or two choice sentences.

Last year we were rookies but that didn't stop us from aiming high. We had some great ideas and worked our butts off. The end result was a very good bot that we were proud of, it was an extraordinary accomplishment for our rookie year.

We went to St. Louis and with a bit of luck we won. We were all excited and we left for Nationals. We liked kicking butt and we almost expected to do a little of the same there. After a few matches we quickly found out that its an entirely new game there. To stay competitive you need to be fast, really fast. Unfortunately we were not. We got our butts kicked there but we gained a lot of experience and now knew the differences between a "St. Louis" bot and an "Atlanta" bot.

This year we applied everything we learned from last year to the new bot. We recruited and trained some new freshmen and doubled our team size. We worked our butts off even more. Almost all days we worked from after school (3:00) to past 10:00. We were not fortunate enough to have rich sponsors that could CNC our parts for us. We had to make up for that in manpower. It takes a long time to machine parts down and it really sucks if you go a .001" too far and a bearing or some other part will no longer fit.

This year the build process did not go as smoothly as it did last year. We actually had to change our whole shooter concept 1/2 way through as a prototype showed it would not work. We were also striving for less mentor involvement and more student involvement. Students were now heading the build teams and not the mentors. I headed the "ball handling" team this year and I found just how convenient having mentors to do everything for you is, and found that I couldn't expect them to continue doing that anymore. For a while We even had doubts the robot wouldn't get finished. This put us in "rush mode" and thankfully we were able to put a finished robot into the box

Also thankfully we had a few days to test and program. We were happy to find out that our robot rocked :D. We knew then we had succeeded in building an "Atlanta" bot.

We shipped our robot and excitedly waited for regional to come. We all saw the VCU web cast and happily found out that our robot could take on any one of them. We were even more excited for St. Louis

Well we got to St. Louis and had a streak of bad luck. Nothing was working. The camera was unreliable and our robot was just not living up to its potential.

During the practice rounds people started complaining about the speed of our shooter. They did not like our "Atlanta" shooter at St. Louis. One of the safety inspectors had us test the speed every hour. By the end of the day he had us lower the speed so much that we had to let our shooter spin up for about a minute to shoot ONE ball. Under game like conditions we could plop out a ball four feet at most. Thankfully the other safety inspector had a little more sense and let us put our motor speed back up as one shot does not represent gameplay. Our shooter doesn't get full juice during a match, and we dont wait untill the match is over to spin up our wheel to full speed.


The next day we still had problems. We lost our first two matches. The second match left us with a destroyed shooter. Team moral was low but we didn't give up. We put forward a huge team effort to fixe the shooter and got it back in shape for the next round.

Thankfully we won the next round and had a nice boost to our moral. Our autonomous mode was not working at all and we were almost about to just drop it. Thankfully we gave it a second chance. We uploaded our "as shipped" code into it and crossed our fingers in the next match. We got 6 out of 10 balls in, not bad :D

Well here is when our bad luck seemed to end. We won the rest of our matches with huge margins (so much that are ranking points were looking depressing). We cheered as our shooter jammed the goals with balls. A ref had to be constantly poking our goal with a stick :D . We also set the the high scores of 95 and 99. We could have easily gone for triple digits but we held back. Slaughtering teams isn't exactly the spirit of FIRST

Our eyes were set for Atlanta when we entered the finals. We got the schedule for the 1st round. We were up against a low shooter another low shooter that was a decent blocker, and a robot whose strategy it looked like was aggressively ramming and tipping over robots.

We get to the field and were greeted with a not so friendly announcement. "We have change the frequencies of the lights, make sure you get the new numbers" Thanks...

So we cant score autonomous because they changed the light and also two robots are aimed out our robot. During the match all three opposing robots rammed/pinned us. But thankfully one of our teammates save our bacon with a well timed volley of balls. the next matches there was more and more rough play until finally at the end of the last match all three of our robots were on the ground at the end of the match. No penalties were called. BTW none of our robots were tippy. The last match we should have won autonomous but one of our balls wasn't counted. It would have won us the match.

Such a sudden stop to our hopes to return to Atlanta is a disapointment. It is only human

It seems that many of you guys are dismissing my thread as a childish rant because of a few poorly worded sentences in my post. Many of you don't even bother to see our point of view

To say that you would not show ANY disapointment if you went through a sitiation like we did then you are flat out lieing to yourself.

Secondly somepeople are being quick to asume that we are whining because we didn't win and that we think is all that matters. Read my post again you will find out that I have told about many of the ups and downs and great experiences that we have had. NONE of us regrets ever being in FIRST. We have all had AWESOME memories going through this program.

My disapointment mostly comes from that in my opinion there was too much rough play and "battle bots". I was just hoping that I could explain some of the frustrations that we have had and that next year there will be less "battle bots." Is that a bad thing to ask for?

I'm sorry to those that have found any of my posts offensive. It was not my intention.

[RebelWithARobot]

First, let me say I'm somewhat offended by this post.
Second, I was impressed by your bot.
BUT!!!
You clearly didn't read the rules this year. This year in the rules they very clearly stated that there would be much more shoving than normal and that your robot should A) Be robust. B) Be able to shove back.

I am very surprised by your post because I have only had good experiences with your team.

More to the point, stop worrying about whether your "Atlanta bot" got screwed over or whatever. Worry about whether you've got an "Atlanta team."
FIRST is about sportsmanship, not your 'bad beat' stories, as fun as it is to share them.

Please do not come onto Chief and badmouth the St. Louis Regional. For a lot of teams at this regional it was their first, or 2nd, and most teams will only attend St. Louis this year.

For many on our team this year was our year to win the robotics portion of the event. They were also disappointed when they didn't. But like them you should be proud of what you built, proud of the way you handled yourselves in the difficult times, and graciously professional when you lose.

I hope nobody who has read Chris27's post will now think ill of the St. Louis Regional.

[Mrpalmere]

Just know that you put in the work. Life isn't fair and things don't always go the way the we would like. I'm sure that you have an awesome robot. We must keep our eye on what this program is really about. It's the kids, giving them the opportunity to learn, experience and solve real world problems.

Our team designed our robot. That is our students. Some of the basic ideas came from the mentors but the concepts were developed by our kids. They spent 150 man-hours developing a shooter and it didn't work. So they scrapped it and said we need to re-design, with 4 days to ship.

They inventored and built and in 2 long days had a new shooter to mount and it works well.

That is what it is about.

[Chris27]

This years game was aimhigh. It was about finding inovative ways to use cameras to shoot balls through a hoop. We did that and so did most teams at St. Louis. I am not saying that they were not somre really great robots at St. Louis. I just don't like it when some teams ignore the objective and rely on brute force battle bot type robots whose main objective is to take down other peoples robots.

I don't mean my post to be offesive its just that we put so much time and innovation into our robot that we were really disapointed on how it ended. I'm sure you would too if you put the amount of time into it as we did.

just know that you put in the work. Life isn't fair and things don't always go the way the we would like.

thats very true but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt

[RebelWithARobot]

I'm sure you would too if you put the amount of time into it as we did.


Thanks...

Our team didn't actually work on our robot, we shipped an empty crate, said some magic words and BAM!, we got a robot.

You're right, i can't believe anyone would possibly be able to THINK that they put in as much work as you.

We should call this years season "Winnovation" because apparently they are the only team that puts in the work to win. And it's not fair to them if someone outplays them. And they should be able to be recognized for this effort. They shouldn't have to do any community outreach, or be gracious professionals, they should just win because Chris27 said so...

You heard it folks. This years season has a new name.

[Bongle]

This years game was aimhigh. It was about finding inovative ways to use cameras to shoot balls through a hoop. We did that and so did most teams at St. Louis. I am not saying that they were not somre really great robots at St. Louis. I just don't like it when some teams ignore the objective and rely on brute force battle bot type robots whose main objective is to take down other peoples robots.
The main objective is to score more points than the other team. You took the "score more than them via the centre goal" approach, while your opponents apparently took the "deny them the ability to score, while scoring a little" approach. They're both valid strategies. A robot that can dump 45 balls into the 1-point chute is just as good as one that can score 15 balls in the centre goal. You can't really expect to make an immobile, defenseless ballcannon and win, because the game is more complex than simply getting balls into the centre goal. Note: I'm not saying your robot IS an immobile, defenseless ballcannon, but if it has trouble with getting blocked and your opponents exploited that weakness, then they had the better strategy.

Don't let it bug you too much though. I imagine if you ask most teams, they were ALL "almost going to nationals, if it wasn't for those meddling (refs|other teams playing unfairly|small team size|sudden problem|unfavourable rule interpretation)". And I say that as an alumni of a team that was chronically thinking we had an unstoppable robot, if only those other teams and pesky rules didn't get in the way. You gotta adapt to adapt to those problems and play through them. Everyone is disappointed when they don't go to nationals, but only a few teams from every regional gets to. You may have had the best shooter, but other teams probably had a slightly worse shooter connected to a better chassis, or had better tactics and earned their way to finals. I remember in 2003, one of the best teams in a game about stacking at the Toronto regional was a team that was actually incapable of stacking.

I'm sure you would too if you put the amount of time into it as we did.

Working 3:00pm-10:00pm every night is pretty much the norm. We would typically work from 7:00am to 11:00pm (excluding school hours, but we might get called out of class) at 1141, and at my current team (1281), it's about the same. Neither team had access to CNC machines, and at 1141 it's basically team policy to not allow adults to touch any component destined for the final robot. It always hurts when things don't turn out the way you want.

[Steve S.]

Thanks...

Our team didn't actually work on our robot, we shipped an empty crate, said some magic words and BAM!, we got a robot.

You're right, i can't believe anyone would possibly be able to THINK that they put in as much work as you.

We should call this years season "Winnovation" because apparently they are the only team that puts in the work to win. And it's not fair to them if someone outplays them. And they should be able to be recognized for this effort. They shouldn't have to do any community outreach, or be gracious professionals, they should just win because Chris27 said so...

You heard it folks. This years season has a new name.

yeah, i agree with you on that one. other teams put in just as much time ad work and even more. we put in a lot of time too, we stayed every day to work on our bot.Chris27, you guys are only a second year team, you cant expect to win and thats not what its about. and it wasnt about finding inovative ways to use cameras to shoot balls through a hoop, its about inspiring students in science and technology, like its always been and to teach students Gracious Professionalism. you should try that sometime...

[Travis Hoffman]

I'd like everyone to look up the definition of "ad hominem" before they post any more replies in this thread.

Critical comments directed at individuals are best left for the world of private messages and then again only if they are constructive. Let's try to filter all of that out of this thread moving forward.

[BRAVESaj25bd8]

I'd like to take a quick moment to make you aware of how you ended your post. You said you would try again next year. That's exactly the point. The best robots don't always win. You may be mad at how things turned out. However, the idea of FIRST is to learn things. This year you learned that you should perhaps put more thought into a powerful drivetrain for years to come. Maybe you learned to not give away so much on practice day so that the other teams would be ready for what you were trying to do. The fact is, as mad or upset as you may be, FIRST is going to keep you coming back. That is because despite the occasional bad call from referees (who I would like to personally thank for volunteering and taking the time to answer questions when asked), or poor alliance partners for a match, or even the occational tipping due to another bot, you want to come back. There is nothing on Earth like what you get in FIRST. So keep your head up and keep trying. The hard work will pay off.
Also, please don't imply that your team worked harder than everyone else's. I'm not saying our team did. I don't know. How do you judge something like that? There's no formula or scale or graph. I can guarantee that everyone puts a lot of effort into their robot and is seeking reward (winning) for that effort. We worked very hard on our robot this year. We thought it would have an awesome system for shooting until we got to practice day at FLR. We missed three straight practice sessions, only allowing us to go to three others. However, we worked hard and ended up being 4-0-0 going into lunch on Friday. I was the driver so I will take the responsibility of going 2-3-0 in our next 5 matches of the day. We ended the day 6-3-0, good enough for 5th place amongst some GREAT competition.
The final day, we showed up and we found out that one of our matches was going to be replayed due to a field error the day before. This was one of our initial 4 wins. The whole team was a little disappointed but we did not want to win a match the wrong way. We ended up losing that make-up match and tried our best to end the day well. We ended up 7-5-0 and in 10th place. We were the second team picked (thank you so much team 191. X-CATS ROCK!) and had a strong alliance. We made it to the final match of competition with the finals tied at one game apiece. We almost won that last match but came out just shy.
Now Chris, I am not going to say that close loss didn't hurt, because it did. But we quickly went over and congratulated the winners of the competition (which they deserved to be) and became ecstatic with what we had accomplished. Everyone catches tough breaks. Only making it to 3 sessions on Thursday, the make-up match, tipping a couple times in elimination rounds. I could come on ChiefDelphi and complain about all of these but I will not. Because the bottom line is that FIRST is an incredible, life-changing experience that I am thankful to be a part of. I know that through all of the disappointment you are feeling, you are also greatful to be a part of such a wonderful organization. Good luck to you next year.

-Bobby D

[rangersteve]

Ok. There was no reason to argue with the original post. He was just posting his teams struggle and disappointment. He did make a few comments about the STL regional but a simple contradiction with good things about the regional would be sufficient. So what if they have had a bad experience there, that is their opinion. News Flash, Dave(RebelWithARobot), Team 931 doesnt work as hard as other teams. We do have 3 sponsors making parts for us and we have an extensive machine shop. Yes we work hard but not as hard as some teams. In my opinion we fall far short of our potential.

[AcesPease]

Hang in there

This is a complex competition. We've been in it for 11 years and things still happen that surprise us (and even disappoint). You need to keep "aiming high" and trying to put the tough calls behind you. We were disqualified in the elimination rounds of our very first competition, that hurt. We're still at it though and sometimes we get it right. If your team keeps working hard, success will come.


Bill Pease
Teacher Mentor
Aces High team 176
2006 UTC New England Champions
2006 BAE Granite State Finalists
2005 UTC New England Engineering Inspiration Award
2004 BAE Granite State Champions
2004 Newton Field Finalists
1999 National Champions (best robot and drive team ever IMHO)
Rookie year 1996

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Before this gets any more critical, please please let me implore you to read T. Hoffman's post above. I know it's difficult to read a statement that you may deem contradictory to your own opinion, but remember that everything here is opinion.

I am sure all of your teams worked equally hard. Why? Because you're still here. You're still competing. You have the funds to continue. I have met people from many of your teams and found enjoyable to talk to and learned a lot from them. Let's just leave it at that and practice the good sportsmanship that we preach.

[TubaMorg]

Hey Chris27: What an extraordinary post! I am impressed with the thought that went into it and how well it is written. I am sure if most people were honest, they would admit to the same sort of feelings at the end of their competitions. I appreciate these feelings because it is reflective of a strong desire to succeed, which should always be encouraged. After all, how can anyone pour their blood, sweat, and tears (not to mention their soul) into a project and expect to come up short?

I hope you realize that your experience this year's regional is as much of a learning experience as last year's national comp. Believe it or not, the nature of the competetion is such that it is very easy for things to go wrong, especially if you put all your eggs in one basket. Successful teams, this year, are ones that have planned several different strategic scenarios: How to counter defensive bots, How to score if our camera breaks, How to defend good high scorers, What is the best way to win autonomous, etc. From the webcasts I've watched it has been a beautiful evolution of strategy as the competitions progress, especially during the finals. One alliance would figure out a way to neutralize a scoring threat on the other team one round, then the next round that scoring threat would readapt and score again. It has been truly amazing how quickly alliances were changing their game plans.

So the point is, while the bitterness of defeat is understandable, and laying the blame of your defeat at the feat of "them" is human nature, you don't want to spend too much time indulging in this. It is a good idea, however, to take a good look at where things went wrong that you CAN fix. What could your team have done differently? Clearly you wanted to shoot the high goal, a hard task to accomplish even if robots aren't ramming you. Perhaps you spent too much time perfecting the ultimate shooter, but forgot about the fact that the other alliance might have robots designed to defeat the ultimate shooter.

This year's game is much different than last year. Last year's game rules were pretty complicated, but the strategy was simple: stack fast and capture rows. This year the game is very simple, but the strategy has never ending levels of complexity. There is no BEST design for a robot. The alliances that are winning have good robots of many designs types (low shooters, high shooters, rambots), but the reason they are winning is because of their game play. One of the best autonomous modes I have seen so far (I'm sorry I forget the team numbers) involved cooperation with two teams in an alliance. One of the teams had an excellent shooter. The opposite alliance had a defensive auto mode designed to ram them to prevent the shooter from scoring. Solution? Another robot from the shooter's team then set their autonomous to pick the blocker so their shooter could shoot. The adaptation was fantastic! Remember this for next year, go through the rules with a critical point of view, dreaming of all the different ways the game can be played and think of options/solutions to all of these.

[Steve S.]

I'd like to take a quick moment to make you aware of how you ended your post. You said you would try again next year. That's exactly the point. The best robots don't always win. You may be mad at how things turned out. However, the idea of FIRST is to learn things. This year you learned that you should perhaps put more thought into a powerful drivetrain for years to come. Maybe you learned to not give away so much on practice day so that the other teams would be ready for what you were trying to do. The fact is, as mad or upset as you may be, FIRST is going to keep you coming back. That is because despite the occasional bad call from referees (who I would like to personally thank for volunteering and taking the time to answer questions when asked), or poor alliance partners for a match, or even the occational tipping due to another bot, you want to come back. There is nothing on Earth like what you get in FIRST. So keep your head up and keep trying. The hard work will pay off.
Also, please don't imply that your team worked harder than everyone else's. I'm not saying our team did. I don't know. How do you judge something like that? There's no formula or scale or graph. I can guarantee that everyone puts a lot of effort into their robot and is seeking reward (winning) for that effort. We worked very hard on our robot this year. We thought it would have an awesome system for shooting until we got to practice day at FLR. We missed three straight practice sessions, only allowing us to go to three others. However, we worked hard and ended up being 4-0-0 going into lunch on Friday. I was the driver so I will take the responsibility of going 2-3-0 in our next 5 matches of the day. We ended the day 6-3-0, good enough for 5th place amongst some GREAT competition.
The final day, we showed up and we found out that one of our matches was going to be replayed due to a field error the day before. This was one of our initial 4 wins. The whole team was a little disappointed but we did not want to win a match the wrong way. We ended up losing that make-up match and tried our best to end the day well. We ended up 7-5-0 and in 10th place. We were the second team picked (thank you so much team 191. X-CATS ROCK!) and had a strong alliance. We made it to the final match of competition with the finals tied at one game apiece. We almost won that last match but came out just shy.
Now Chris, I am not going to say that close loss didn't hurt, because it did. But we quickly went over and congratulated the winners of the competition (which they deserved to be) and became ecstatic with what we had accomplished. Everyone catches tough breaks. Only making it to 3 sessions on Thursday, the make-up match, tipping a couple times in elimination rounds. I could come on ChiefDelphi and complain about all of these but I will not. Because the bottom line is that FIRST is an incredible, life-changing experience that I am thankful to be a part of. I know that through all of the disappointment you are feeling, you are also greatful to be a part of such a wonderful organization. Good luck to you next year.

-Bobby D

So True. on an off note: i believe that was match 15 that was replayed, which doesnt happem often

[Gdeaver]

It seams so many individuals on teams don't understand the goals of First. Any team that goes through build season and ships a robot has won the game. They just may not realize it until in a few years they are out facing the real world and using the life skills that First competitions teach. Think of your unfortunate classmates that are not involved in activities like First. The transition to adulthood and the real world can be very tough. As you found out this weekend hard work is not enough. Your best laid plans didn't work out as you thought. Hey, that's real life. The real skill that leads to success is learning to deal with failures and the never ceasing problems that will be thrown at you every day. From your post, it seams that your team did very well at dealing with the problems and showed a very respectable performance. You didn't win but, every one on your team should be feeling very good. How do you think the team that came in last in the rankings feels? They may feel down but, their participation this year has given them a little lesson in life. If your playing the First game, your winning big time. Pick the shoulders up and savor this weekend's experience.

[Rick TYler]

You can't guarantee outcomes -- only effort. If your team did its best, be satisfied. That some other teams had "better" outcomes is just an indication that your hard work should be directed in a slightly different direction next time.

[KenWittlief]

If a person goes gambling (gaming) for the first time and wins a lot of money, they are in real danger of becoming addicted to gambling (it was so easy - I won the first time I played....)

In a way this has happened to you. Its rare for a rookie team to win a regional. Its an outstanding accomplishment when you do, but as they say in the music industry you 'havent paid your dues yet'.

There are 6 teams on the field in each game - your team only makes up 16% of the match. No matter how good your robot is it ALWAYS take a bit of luck to come out as the winner of a regional.

You need to let that sink in a bit. Winning last year did not happen because you have the best students/mentors/sponsors/school... at the regional. The point is, whether you win is not 100% under your control.

So if you win dont let it go to your head, and if you lose dont let it get you down.

The robots and the playfield and the plastic trophies <= thats only a game.

What you experience along the way <= thats real! No one can take your FIRST experience away from you.

[Richard Wallace]

Several very experienced folks have already contributed to this thread, so I will limit my own response accordingly.

Team 1625 should be extremely proud of their performance and competitiveness at the 2006 St. Louis Regional. All of their students and mentors that I met conducted themselves as gracious professionals. And their robot was clearly well designed and well built, based both on detailed inspection and, more significantly, on performance in competition. Their performance was also recognized by the Autodesk Visualization Award (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=468743) and the Delphi Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award.

There were some complaints about their shooter's muzzle velocity; on two (maybe three?) occasions the head referee ordered ball speed tests. As lead robot inspector the task fell to me to ensure (using the FIRST-supplied ball speedometer device) that 1625 was complying with the muzzle velocity rule <S02> and it is the consensus of all St. Louis officials that they were. I believe the complaints stemmed mainly from competitive envy -- their shooter was easily the most effective at the regional.

On behalf of the St. Louis Regional and of my team (931) I want to congratulate 1625, and to repeat what I told many of them personally yesterday -- we would love to see you again in St. Louis every year.

[Chris27]

It seems that many of you guys are getting the wrong idea about my post. I do not intend to whine about the outcome of the regional. What is done is done. Take a close look at this.

<G22> Intentional ROBOT - ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over, or entanglement of ROBOTs are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not
allowed. However, AIM HIGH is a highly interactive game, and some appropriate contact is allowed
subject to the following guidelines

In my opinion there was way too much of the above at St Louis and nothing was done about it. I just wish that more would be done about it next year.

We are already brainstorming ideas of how to make an even better bot. We have continued to learn from our experiences. For example we found out that only one autonomous mode was not enough. We need to be more flexible. We are by no means "giving up"

[chaoticprout]

It seems that many of you guys are getting the wrong idea about my post. I do not intend to whine about the outcome of the regional. What is done is done. Take a close look at this.



In my opinion there was way too much of the above at St Louis and nothing was done about it. I just wish that more would be done about it next year.

We are already brainstorming ideas of how to make an even better bot. We have continued to learn from our experiences. For example we found out that only one autonomous mode was not enough. We need to be more flexible. We are by no means "giving up"

While I did not see the St. Louis regional, I did attend BAE and watch the arizona webcast, and one thing important to consider, most teams (read:most) who play defense, don't try to tip your robot. They try to get you out of shooting range in several ways, including pushing up the ramp, pushing you back, pushing you side to side. The bad part about pushing up the ramp, is that teams with high shooters tend to tip over when the defender backs away from the bot. I personally don't see this as "Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over" but rather as strategies to stop teams from scoring. This game is rough, and honestly, I think it was 100% intended to be played out the way we've seen it. Why on earth would first totally recommend, as said earlier, bumpers.
These are just my $0.02, as that's the way I see this game being played.

[MrForbes]

I have never been to a competition before the Arizona regional, and the interaction between robots was pretty much what I expected to see. Aim High is as much a wrestling match as it is a ball game....

[Chris27]

While I did not see the St. Louis regional, I did attend BAE and watch the arizona webcast, and one thing important to consider, most teams (read:most) who play defense, don't try to tip your robot. They try to get you out of shooting range in several ways, including pushing up the ramp, pushing you back, pushing you side to side. The bad part about pushing up the ramp, is that teams with high shooters tend to tip over when the defender backs away from the bot. I personally don't see this as "Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over" but rather as strategies to stop teams from scoring. This game is rough, and honestly, I think it was 100% intended to be played out the way we've seen it. Why on earth would first totally recommend, as said earlier, bumpers.
These are just my $0.02, as that's the way I see this game being played.

I understand robots being tipped over the ram but that wasn't the case. When a team is consistently pushing over non tippy robots in non tippy situations something is wrong there. That team is perfectly aware of what they are doing and they refuse to tone down their pushing/shoving/ramming.

[George A.]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment. When an allaince is playing defense the robots that they are controlling are on the opposite end of the field, and as such they can't always see what's happening...especially if they have 5 other robots running around the field blocking their line of sight.

So granted some tipping may look a little suspicious, but in actuality the driver might not know they have another team wobbly on the ramp. And it would foolish for a driver to stop playing defense because they can't see 100% of what's happening. They owe it to their teammates, their allaince partners, and most importantly themselves to go out on the field and give it their all. If that means that they have to play hard defense in order to win, that's what they're going to do.

[Rombus]

I understand robots being tipped over the ram but that wasn't the case. When a team is consistently pushing over non tippy robots in non tippy situations something is wrong there. That team is perfectly aware of what they are doing and they refuse to tone down their pushing/shoving/ramming.

But if it was being pushed over constantly, in the flat of the field, wouldn't it be a tippy design? A pure defense bot at Buckeye was 2nd seed as of Friday and ended up 9th overall after selections.

First i feel for you. I felt great about our robot this year, Atlanta would be nice, but i was just hoping to get into the playoffs. At buckeye we were hit with hardware problem after hardware problem that ended up making us have no auto mode and no camera aiming. But our drive team did a kickbutt job, and even with all the problems we ended the day with a 5-6-0, sitting in 25th spot and with what we felt was an impressive show of our robots abilities, great defense and a good shooter, even if we were getting pushed around a bit.

We didn't get picked during alliance selection. i couldn't believe it, since we played well, just had some problematic alliances. 2 lower seed teams got picked over us. Was i disappointed? Yes, i went back down to the pit and just looked at our robot wondering what we had missed. I wanted so badly to get out there one more time just so the rest of the team could go out there to the sideline and cheer there heart out one more time.

But this is the nature of FIRST, In games like this defenses is key. Will team 1278 ever build a pure defense bot? i sure hope not, because there is no fun in that. Half the fun in first is taking the hardest goal of the game and trying your hardest to do it. But FIRST is not about having every team build a robot capable of the hardest task, and defense will always play a key role.

[KenWittlief]

the proof of a design is in its performance. If you push a robot by its bumper zone, and it tips over, then it IS a tippy robot.

if the other teams had arms that came out and pushed above the bumper zone, then they are breaking the rules.

If a team pushes a robot and it keeps tipping over, what is the logical conclusion? That robot should be allowed to sit infront of the goal and shoot all day long, untouched?

or that team should find a way to stop its bot from tipping over so much (modify the robot)?

This is part of the 'paying your dues' that I was talking about. You had a notion of how the game would be played this year, and its a bit rougher on the field than you expected.

The refs did not call any fouls, therefore what you saw IS the game this year.

now its up to you: will you modify your understanding of how the game is be played (this year and in the following years), or will you hang onto your previous notions of how you think the game should have been played, and in the process conclude that FIRST is screwed up?

[drwalt]

I can understand well the highs and the lows of competition, just as you describe them, Chris27. I am the parent mentor of a team. I think all teams go through the process you describe at one time or another. Our team has been through a couple of rough years in transition from one major sponsor to another. Many teams are in the same boat. We played in our one and only compeition this year and we didn't make it to the finals, BUT we were winners. After our major sponsor pulled out on September 23 we had no money. Most of our team quit, but the 3 remaining players worked their buns off fundraising and with the gracious help of other teams and some nice people, we were able to register. 2 weeks into the build season is when we found an engineer and simultaneously got a check that allowed us to buy parts. Our kids worked hard, too. They were there every day after school. There was only 3 or 4 kids and the engineer, but they did it. They built a robot and I am proud to say that our kids did all the work. Our engineer took their design and he did alot of the cutting and machining, but our kids designed the robot and they put it together and tested it. It might not have been the best or the most pleasing to the eye, but they got it done and they competed well. They really came together as a team, supporting each other and they placed in the top 20 of the 63 robots in our regional. The scoring was messed up for the first 14 matches of our regional and that messed everyone up, but the point it that we made it there, we learned a ton, and we overcame adversity through sheer tenacity and by the gracious professionalism of other teams that helped us along the way. I am so proud of our kids and I hope they are, too. That is what FIRST is all about. Disappointment is a part of it, but overcoming that moment of regret and seeing pride in all you've accomplished will help you to look forward to next year with excitement and anticipation. I would encourage you to try another regional. If for no other reason, than to get to meet other teams and people and see a new place. Good Luck!

[Chris27]

If I can get a hold on some of the video we took I will post it. It should reveal more about the intentions of the opposing team. And btw you can tip over any robot no matter how well it is designed.

[George A.]

If I can get a hold on some of the video we took I will post it. It should reveal more about the intentions of the opposing team. And btw you can tip over any robot no matter how well it is designed.


I'm gonna have to argue with you there...especially now since there's a rule (forgive me, I forget the rule number) where all sides of a robot MUST be within 10 degrees of vertical. So this year it's essentially a flat face pushing against a flat face. Unlike in years past where teams used wedges for defense (although some teams used them for offense) they would sit there and score with no worries about being pushed due to the fact that if another team tried to push them they would ride up on the wedge.

I digress, at NJ the most dominant team, IMO, was 25. if I remember correctly I only saw them twice (and I saw every match since I was Game Announcer) the two times they tipped were from getting caught on a ball going up the ramp, and going forward on the ramp and going backward very quickly which tipped them over.

They were being shoved around ALL REGIONAL LONG, and no robot was able to tip them. Add to that that they had one of the lowest shooters in the game, and they managed to come away as #1 seed and eventual Regional Champions is just a testament to the design of their robot, and their ability to adapt.

[themagic8ball]

Hey 1625. I havent read the whole thread but you guys had an awesome bot. We really wanted to be on your alliance for finals but we were picked one team ahead of you. I was dissappointed that you guys didnt make it to the finals because we were really looking forward to your excellant competition.

[Rick TYler]

the proof of a design is in its performance. If you push a robot by its bumper zone, and it tips over, then it IS a tippy robot.

Our shooting mechanism had serious issues, but our robot didn't. Despite the fact that it was nearly 60 inches tall, we never tipped over in competition. The reason we didn't is that we intentionally sacrificed some functionality (big hopper for one) to achieve a really low center of gravity. Our superstructure is narrow. Motors are mounted below where they are needed and drive belts and chains go up to the mechanism they are powering. We had an average 6WD drivetrain, but our CG was about two inches above the top of our wheels. We could cruise up and down the ramp at nearly any angle, and didn't worry about tipping. Everything on the robot was influenced by making weight and keeping CG low.

We ended up being a strong defensive force even though we intended to be a top shooter. The only thing separating good defenders from poor ones is the drivetrain and chassis. In the matches I saw, nearly all of the robots that tipped over had top-heavy designs. Most would tip themselves over just driving up the ramp at anything other than an optimal angle. Those of you who feel like you were tipped over unfairly can usually look at your design for the reason.

[Brindza]

I understand where chris27 is coming from. I agree that defense is a big part of the first game and I understand that you need build a robust robot, However some of the defense I saw was a little rediculus. And I am pretty sure that it was not what FIRST had in mind. Our robot was forced up our opponents ramp by two of the opposing alliances robots. Our robot was being pushed striat up the ramp while our robot was at a 45 degree angle to the ramp. Our robot doesnt go up the ramp like that. When we got to our robot after the match the aluminum mount for the caster had been bent so badly that it wasnt touching the ground anymore, by about half an inch. :(
I agree that there should be defense and robots hitting, but I think that some of it gets out of hand and it is clear when it does.

[Chris27]

I can understand well the highs and the lows of competition, just as you describe them, Chris27. I am the parent mentor of a team. I think all teams go through the process you describe at one time or another. Our team has been through a couple of rough years in transition from one major sponsor to another. Many teams are in the same boat. We played in our one and only compeition this year and we didn't make it to the finals, BUT we were winners. After our major sponsor pulled out on September 23 we had no money. Most of our team quit, but the 3 remaining players worked their buns off fundraising and with the gracious help of other teams and some nice people, we were able to register. 2 weeks into the build season is when we found an engineer and simultaneously got a check that allowed us to buy parts. Our kids worked hard, too. They were there every day after school. There was only 3 or 4 kids and the engineer, but they did it. They built a robot and I am proud to say that our kids did all the work. Our engineer took their design and he did alot of the cutting and machining, but our kids designed the robot and they put it together and tested it. It might not have been the best or the most pleasing to the eye, but they got it done and they competed well. They really came together as a team, supporting each other and they placed in the top 20 of the 63 robots in our regional. The scoring was messed up for the first 14 matches of our regional and that messed everyone up, but the point it that we made it there, we learned a ton, and we overcame adversity through sheer tenacity and by the gracious professionalism of other teams that helped us along the way. I am so proud of our kids and I hope they are, too. That is what FIRST is all about. Disappointment is a part of it, but overcoming that moment of regret and seeing pride in all you've accomplished will help you to look forward to next year with excitement and anticipation. I would encourage you to try another regional. If for no other reason, than to get to meet other teams and people and see a new place. Good Luck!

That is an amazing achievement. After putting so much work into a robot you want to see it go as far as it goes. I would have like to have been beaten by robots that were superior to ours at nationals so that we could have learned so much more about what makes a winning bot and areas that we could improve. (It would be nice to win nationals too but thats hoping for way to much ;)) My dissapointment comes because our stop was so sudden and the great memories we have had this year had to end with such screwed over feeling

[Cody Carey]

I have read the posts, and have come to the conclusion that we are all basing our posts on "not-so-thought-out" reasons.

By saying "that’s not what FIRST wanted", you are, in essence, putting words

into their mouths. FIRST designed the game so that it has a defensive, an offensive, and a free for all period. There are equal amount of times for defense and offense. If FIRST Hadn't wanted robots that could push other robots sideways, then they wouldn't have made the game like they did.

As was said before, there are Two strategies that a team could take:



The "We score 100 points with our shooter and that beats the other teams 99",





And the "We score 10 points with our ball dumper, and that beats the other teams Zero because we didn't let them score."



Just because teams (Ours included) chose the latter, doesn't mean that they aren't following the spirit of FIRST. They built their robot to play the game how they thought would work best.



The winners at Pitt Had TWO pushers and ONE shooter, meaning that the Pushers' game strategy works just as well as the shooters'. This in itself proves that Both strategies work for the game this year, and because they both work... they are both EXACTLY what FIRST wanted.


P.S. I grouped Dumpers in with pushers... just for this post, I swear :)

[Chris27]

The "We score 100 points with our shooter and that beats the other teams 99",


This requires a lot more innovation, time, and effort. Anyone can build a pusher, but it requires inovation to score.

Heck you given all the instructions and parts to build a pusher. Where is the fun/skill in that?

[Brindza]

I have read the posts, and have come to the conclusion that we are all basing our posts on "not-so-thought-out" reasons.

By saying "that’s not what FIRST wanted", you are, in essence, putting words

into their mouths. FIRST designed the game so that it has a defensive, an offensive, and a free for all period. There are equal amount of times for defense and offense. If FIRST Hadn't wanted robots that could push other robots sideways, then they wouldn't have made the game like they did.

As was said before, there are Two strategies that a team could take:



The "We score 100 points with our shooter and that beats the other teams 99",





And the "We score 10 points with our ball dumper, and that beats the other teams Zero because we didn't let them score."



Just because teams (Ours included) chose the latter, doesn't mean that they aren't following the spirit of FIRST. They built their robot to play the game how they thought would work best.



The winners at Pitt Had TWO pushers and ONE shooter, meaning that the Pushers' game strategy works just as well as the shooters'. This in itself proves that Both strategies work for the game this year, and because they both work... they are both EXACTLY what FIRST wanted.

actually, the winners at Pitt had one dumper one pusher and one shooter,
and unfortunately our alliance that also had one dumper, one shooter, and one pusher was not given the chance to play them in the finals, due to many questionable cuircumstances. :(

[jts]

As the mentor and coach of 909, the team that picked 1625 as well as 1451, I can understand the frustration on the part of Chris. There was a definite change in the play of the game during the final three rounds than either of our teams (909/1625) had experienced in the previous day and a half. During these matches our robot sustained more "dings" than during 12 qualifying rounds. I wish I had taken before and after pictures. Much of this was due to the structure of the opposing alliance. They were all short robots that did not shoot particularly well. Their only chance of winning was to harass 909 & 1625 and they did once heck of a job. Previously we had been able to spin off of one defending robot in order to free our robot up for a shot. While we were able to spin off a defender a couple of times we were only met by another. The third match between the two alliances proved this as the strategy was for 1451 to guard the right side and for 909 to guard the left to allow 1625 to get off their shots. It just didn't work. Hopefully in the next few days we will get these matches up on our website. After reviewing them I can't complain about the game play. It was rough, but every hit was consistent with what was being allowed.

1625: You all had an excellent scoring machine and I was very impressed with your robot.
1451: Your drivers did a great job of trying to get 909 & 1625 open.
939: Great defense and nice job of getting free to score points.
1208: Your autonomous scoring never let us play the game we wanted to.
650: You played us the closest of any team there. I'm surprised we won our previous two encounters. Your aggressiveness was hard to overcome and with your alliance partners it was just too much.

[Cody Carey]

This requires a lot more inovation, time, and effort. Anyone can build a pusher, but it requires innovation to score.



Heck you given all the instructions and parts to build a pusher. Where is the fun/skill in that?



You ARE beginning to be borderline offensive... We went to Pittsburgh with a shooter on our robot and a base that pushed any team at the regional sideways. We decided to take the shooter off because defense worked WAY better for us.

There is JUST AS MUCH fun/skill put into my and everybody else’s' robot as there is in yours.

You are not given all the instructions to build an Exceptional base; you are given all the parts/instructions to build an acceptable base. We built an Exceptional base, and we are TRULY PROUD OF IT. Just because other teams accomplished more than yours did (for whatever reason), doesn't mean that you have to be bitter to the point of insult to EVERY other team in FIRST.


Most people on my team have 110+ hours put into our robot, and I believe that we tried just as hard as you did to make a winning one, so don't go saying that nobody tried as hard as you.

[Madison]

Some others thought otherwise, so I'm opening this again as I said I would.

[pwilczynski]

That is an amazing achievement. After putting so much work into a robot you want to see it go as far as it goes. I would have like to have been beaten by robots that were superior to ours at nationals so that we could have learned so much more about what makes a winning bot and areas that we could improve. (It would be nice to win nationals too but thats hoping for way to much ;)) My dissapointment comes because our stop was so sudden and the great memories we have had this year had to end with such screwed over feeling

Chris, just because your robot lost doesn't mean that it was a bad robot. I haven't seen it play. But as everyone else has said, FIRST did design the game to have defense, a lot of it. They tried to make it so that teams could do multiple things. The winning teams of almost every regional so far were made up of robots with different strategys that shooting coupled with shooters. Furthermore, to me, it sounds as tho your team failed, like many others, to put on bumpers. Bumpers are extremely valuble pieces of hardware. Teams with them are definatly the least prone to damage. Therefore, take this to heart. Your robot was beaten by a team that had recognized your threat and neutralized it. AIM HIGH is a fun, exciting game. However, could you imagine it without robots d-ing eachother up, pushing it around. It wouldn't be too much fun for anyone.

we never be able to test it out in the conditions it was designed for
Our eyes were set for Atlanta when we entered the finals

To respond to these comments, I must say that you are bordering on crossing the line. To say that you were never able to test it in the conditions it was designed for and that you were focused on Atlanta before winning shows disrespect for the other teams at your regional, all of whom spent the same amout of time that you did. Your robot was designed for AIM HIGH. Your robot played AIM HIGH. Therefore, the conditions it was designed for were validated.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

I hate to take anything away from any of the teams that attend the StL regional, but it is generally one of the weaker regionals. Founded on rookie teams in 2002. Generally dominated by the Baxter Bomb Squad (16). A rookie team has a really good chance at winning that regional. I don't know where this post is going... so I should probably end it right now. I didn't read this entire thread either. I have a short attention span.

[chaoticprout]

I hate to take anything away from any of the teams that attend the StL regional, but it is generally one of the weaker regionals. Founded on rookie teams in 2002. Generally dominated by the Baxter Bomb Squad (16). A rookie team has a really good chance at winning that regional. I don't know where this post is going... so I should probably end it right now. I didn't read this entire thread either. I have a short attention span.

Hopefully this is a joke post....otherwise...wow.

[jarowe]

After reading these posts I noticed that everyone is saying what they think FIRST is. So I started thinking-- what is FIRST? Then I thought, well, it's all of these things. It's about innovation, hard work, inspiration, teaching, learning, experimenting, strategy, competition, meeting new people, being inspired, aiming high and changing paradigms. Then I realized, for some people it's more than that. For others, it's simpler. Really, FIRST is what you make of it.

If you want to finish a competition and say, "We were shafted," then do it. Because if you really were the victim of unfairness, you did built an awesome robot. In building that machine, you learned something, and hopefully you were inspired along the way. However, I really hope you don't, for your sake. If you leave a competition and didn't go as far as you had hoped, it's because there was a team who was able to play the game to their advantage a little bit better than the other teams. So rather, say to yourself, "Next year, we're going to build a better drive train." "This summer, let's work on making that camera work for us, so we can win auto." I hope that you'll say, "That was one of the best experiences of my life," and you'll realize that 6 weeks of hard work paid off and you're robot went out and won a match or two.

I would idealistically like to believe that every team out there is playing fair and is playing to win. I work on strategy for our team, and I personally love it when teams play good defense, because I get to do more work and figure out how to avoid them.

I would like to point out though, that it's unfair to say that one team worked less hard than another simply because they didn't built a shooter. I honestly believe that every team wants to win and builds the best they can. A good pushing and defensive robot, that can push balls into corner goals and climb the ramp has a very good shot of doing well.

Also, keep in mind, the rules are designed for safety and for fair play. These are the top priorities of organization and the referees. You have to remember though, that they wanted defense, there is a reason that there is a period of the game referred to as such. There is a reason that the bumpers were added this year. If the referees see something unfair and against the rules, trust them to call it.

I'm so very proud of FIRST because they strive for success, and every time, teams deliver. This game has been played well. Teams have worked and continue to work hard. I personally can't wait for the Wisconsin Regional and the Championship to see what others have done with such a complex task.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Hopefully this is a joke post....otherwise...wow.

Yeah... it wasn't my finest hour... I read the first post in the topic and had my mind made up. I do that a lot. Sorry. :(

[BuddyB309]

If I can get a hold on some of the video we took I will post it. It should reveal more about the intentions of the opposing team. And btw you can tip over any robot no matter how well it is designed.

I have the entire match on video at a fixed angle that views the entire field. I shall post it on youtube.com thursday afternoon since i will be unable to get to my video equipment. I will set up a new post with a poll and we can vote if it was unsportsmanlike or not.

I dont want to sound mean or anything I just feel that people dont see the unsportsmanlike conduct that went on in this match. If all three robots tip over in a match and not by their own accord, you know there is a problem.

[sanddrag]

I'm tired and I can't take the time to read this whole thread but I will reply to the very first post (and the starter of the thread).

Your team is better off than so many more out there.

Last year, we had 26 pounds of 3 motor (each) 2 speed gearboxes and never had to engage in one pushing match because of the way penalties were being handed out.

This year we are in our 6th year. We own no machining tools. We don't even have a bandsaw. We build our robot in a computer lab. We didn't get picked for finals in Arizona. We have 50 pounds of a mechanism that has scored a grand total of 3 points. We lost more matches than we won. We have never been to the Championship event.

You are doing just fine. There are so many others right around you who have many more problems than your team.

[Dillon Compton]

Alright...

Few things: First, I think everyone needs to chill a little bit; Chris27, it might be a good idea to read your posts before you hit "submit reply", and consider how they might be offensive to some individuals. Everyone else, consider the fact that Chris27 and his team were disappointed with the result of their regional, and that their experiences and response are thus coming through a biased, slightly distraught lens.

Chris27, I understand your frustration, and we totally experienced it last year; my team built a robot that had the ability to cap higher than all except for two bots at our regional, and perhaps ten or twenty bots that I saw at nationals could cap higher than us; what we didn't reckon on was the development of strategy and driver skill; we built a robot that, with a properly developed strategy and actually making some practice matches, would have been stupendous. We didn't do these things, and we didn't play the game well; that was our fault, and that is why this year we planned on playing the game.

We are one of those robots that will play primarily defense, although we will probably be able to score in both the high and corner goals. We collect balls, we shoot them, and we dump them, but what we do really, really well is push other robots wherever the hell we want to. This is a valid strategy, and while you claim a lack of "innovation" in these bots, I draw your attention to what we were forced to do to maintain scoring capabilities while being a very strong defensive bot:

-We had to design and run a belt drive from our window motor to get it moving a roller at 400rpms, without a gearbox, because we don't have the facilities or knowledge to design and fabricate custom gearboxes.

-We had to design and build the entire upper section of our robot(read: non-drive-base) using only 45lbs of weight (note that this includes collection system, hopper, dumping system, electronics, etc...).

-We were forced to compensate for our lack of strong/fast motors by developing systems that functioned without an extremely fast or strong motor.

Additionally, we put alot of time and thought into the drive-train and base, and how to make it do what we wanted, the way we wanted to do it. Perhaps we didn't create a shooter with adjustments on 3 axes that dynamically tracked the target and determined motor speed & etc... based on trigonometrical distance calculations.

But we didn't need to- we designed and built a functional robot that will contribute to each and every alliance we are on no matter what the opposing alliance's strategy is. Our innovation, as valid as yours, was partially rooted in strategy and gameplay, not solely in technological achievements.

Which brings me to my next point: This is a thread about whether or not robots win or lose, and whether or not their gameplay fits with various preconceived notions of what "FIRST intended the game to be like". Ahhhh, intent, what a word...I'd ask how any of us know FIRSTs intent (other than inspiring individuals to do something bigger and better with their lives than previously planned) in anything, but it would probably create an uproar(the answer is that we don't; FIRST designs the game, and we interpret that game and create an experience out of it; a robot is a byproduct of the build season). This experience is what really matters; the skills you develop over the 6 weeks, or the competition, or just in thinking about the robot is what really counts; it is the change that each of us experiences, the ability we develop to deal with disappointments and successes, and our relatively amazing ability to adapt our notions of the way things are and enact a positive change based on these refined realities, that really matter in the long run.

My team has never won a regional; hell, we've never even seeded high than 30th(I think, and this is in a field of 46 at Drexel). What we have done is learned things. We've learned what we want to do with our lives, what a creative mind and some raw materials can create, what the true meaning of teamwork is, how to manage our time effectively, how to multitask, how to write software, how to design & assemble an electronics board, how to use a variety of tools, how to design and complete an engineering project, and, most of all, we have learned how to take what we though was our limit, our top, our best, and exceed them all. We've dealt with failure (see our rookie robot that was 40lbs overweight, had a pretty much non-extant dewalt drivetrain, couldn't turn easily, and our functional arm we were forced to cut to make weight), and success (see our website award in 2005 and our Rookie Inspiration Award for showing up at the regional, awed and inexperienced, and putting our time, effort, sweat, and blood into fixing that robot when we weighed in [no accurate scale at the shop- not enough money] and found out about our weight issue), and each of these experiences has taught us things. On the surface these lessons were about robotics; we learned to weigh our components and final products obsessively, to KISS, and to choose something we could do and do it. When you delve a little, however, you find that these lessons taught us about teamwork, goals, planning, and every members personal abilities in the shop, on the field, and in life.

Chris27, it sounds like you are disappointed in the outcome of this year; you have every right to be so, if you so choose. You built what sounds like an *amazing* robot that I am very envious of, and you didn't garner the expected win. I challenge you to look past the disappointment, and to remove it from your thoughts; look beyond the loss of this year (and the win of last year), and ask what the experiences can teach you and your teammates, other than how best to build a winning robot. Once you realize that in the end, while winning is fun and awesome, it isn't everything, you have realized what FIRST is really all about, and what they intended the competition to do; if even a single person on your team can come away from this experience having learned something they would not have otherwise learned, then you have done well.

There is probably not a single team in FIRST that could not have done better, given more time/thought/money/ideas/sponsors/facilities/luck, but if each of the 40,000 students (and mentors, while we are at it) comes out of the experience having learned some lesson about life, and having developed a broader, more realistic knowledge and experience base, then FIRST, and every team in FIRST, has accomplished what their basest goal should be. To educate, inspire, and drive everyone involved in this amazing program.


Just my $.02

-Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[jts]

I have the entire match on video at a fixed angle that views the entire field. I shall post it on youtube.com thursday afternoon since i will be unable to get to my video equipment. I will set up a new post with a poll and we can vote if it was unsportsmanlike or not.

I dont want to sound mean or anything I just feel that people dont see the unsportsmanlike conduct that went on in this match. If all three robots tip over in a match and not by their own accord, you know there is a problem.

909 fell over in the match due to driver error and not because of the actions of any one team. Our driver did the one thing that would make the robot fall over, which was to yank the controls into full reverse while still rolling forward.

That being said...The match felt as though it were one very large wrestling match. My personal feelings are that there was too much hard hitting, but it was consistent with what had been allowed for the entire regional and so I can't place any blame on the teams. It wasn't as evident in previous matches because we never went up against 3 defensive robots.

I really wish all involved could look back at the final rounds and view them as a learning experience. We all went out there to do our best and we all created machines and strategies to do so. Not every machine is perfect and not every strategy is perfect, as clearly shown by watching the 1v8 elims. And even more importantly, it's a game used as a vehicle to teach so take a deep breath and think of all the fun you had working alongside others.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

I'm tired and I can't take the time to read this whole thread but I will reply to the very first post (and the starter of the thread).

Your team is better off than so many more out there.

We are in our 6th year. We did get picked for finals in Arizona. We have 50 pounds of a mechanism that has scored a grand total of 3 points. We lost more matches than we won. We have never been to the Championship event.

You are doing just fine. There are so many others right around you who have many more problems than your team.

If only I could have said this. Always graciously professional, sanddrag. :D

[ebarker]

[QUOTE=Dillon Compton]Alright...

Few things: First, I think everyone needs to chill a little bit;

Yes I agree, everyone please chill.

My team built and rebuilt and rebuilt a robot that we are actually proud of. It isn't perfect, neither is anyone elses. There are many things we got done, and several we didn't We haven't competed in our regional yet, but will in a few days.

The machines are imperfect, the scoring is imperfect, the judging is imperfect. But in the spirit of 'gracious professionalism' we will happily accept the outcome.
This is not a hollow statement that we read in a book. We are proud of what we have accomplished to date. We had a lot of fun, we learned a lot, we expanded the horizons of the team members and the community around us.

We are going to compete this weekend, hopefully our work will deserve some recognizable merit, but if it doesn't that is okay. It just means that we didn't deliver the goods, or we failed to convince the world that we delivered the goods. We really feel like that we have already 'won'.

This is real life engineering. Time/Money/Resource constrained. If someone want to be a great engineer, they need to take the punchs and go with the flow. Take these experiences and learn, enjoy them, take notes.

Real life engineering is great fun, but you have to learn to wear iron pants because some days you are going to get the crap beat out of you.

Relax and enjoy the experience and learn how to emotionally deal with success and failure. Learn to identify and examine your successes and failures and how to laugh at them. You will get a more harmonious outcome in the future.

Our goals for now is to have a good showing, try and get some recognition, and keep the machine in one piece.

Ed

[KenWittlief]

I have been involved with FIRST since 1997, when my daughter joined her HS team. I have to admit that over the years my attitude has been adjusted a few times.

One of the most impressive moments in a match Ive ever seen was in '98 at Rutgers, in the playoffs. A robot had tipped itself back onto a rail, and was helpless. The opponent had a sure victory. Instead of racking up more points the opponent came over and gently nudged the bot back on its feet - as if to say "Get up and play the game". The crowd was on its feet cheering. I dont remember which side won the match.

In the stack attack game 2003 we were well into the scoring mode where the winning team got a multiple of the losing teams score. Throughout the build season I was convinced most teams would try to win by a few points, and that we would see many stacks left standing at the end of matches. That never happened. I dont think I saw a single game end all that year with a stack more than 3 boxes high. If a tall stack did occasionally remain it was because one or more powerfull bots defended it for the whole match. Im sure many teams that build excellent stacking machines that year were dissapointed to see their chosen strategy end up being unusable.

In 2004, in the last match of the finals an opponent rammed our bot, and broke ALL the wheels off on both sides. No penalty was called. At first we were very upset. But we accepted the fact that we had not designed for a rough contact game: our bot had plastic wheels, exposed, with no bumpers.

The game this year has three ways to score. The center goal, the corner goals, and by climbing the ramp at the end. All three are valid ways to score and valid ways to win. If a team decided their primary means of scoring points is to climb the ramp at the end, then they must spend the rest of the match preventing their opponents from scoring more that 25 points. There is nothing wrong with that approach to the game.

And as the last two weeks of competition has shown, if your primary strategy is to shoot the star out of the center goal, then you will have to do so while rugged little dozer-bots are pushing you every way they can. That means you will need to hit the goal from a range of angles and distances, you will need to acquire and lock your shooter on the target quickly, and you will need to fire off multiple shots quickly when you are locked on.

There was only bot I saw at the FLL regional that was unstopable in its primary function. The Falcons - team 1405. They pointed their bot directly at the nearest corner goal, and in auton mode they flew across the floor and dumped all ten balls at once. The laws of physics say you cannot cross the field diagonally and beat them to the goal if both robots are going as fast as the physics of the game and rules allow.

We will find out at the championship which game plan proves to be the best this year.

[ebarker]

The Rutgers story is a GREAT story. I'd love to see something like that.

From what I've seen many teams are too focused on just point scoring and not enough on the other aspects of FIRST.

We decided early on that we wanted the technical challange of building a robot that could pickup and shoot on the run, what we called the M1A1 approach.

We did this recognizing that there a several ways to become the high scorer. We just felt like it was more important to us to try to build the M1A1 and screw it up than it was to simply be the high score robot. It was a team decision and we are happy with it.

If we go to Atlanta, and it would be a merit-based invitation only, then we are going to have some real fun and almost certainly get beat.

C'mon guys, it's just like racing, 40 or so near identical cars and all kinds of stuff happens. Sometimes you get a break, sometimes you get broken. :D

Ed

[Chris27]

It seems that many of you guys are dismissing my thread as a childish rant because of a few poorly worded sentences in my post. Many of you don't even bother to see our point of view

To say that you would not show ANY disapointment if you went through a sitiation like we did then you are flat out lieing to yourself.

Secondly somepeople are being quick to asume that we are whining because we didn't win and that we think is all that matters. Read my post again you will find out that I have told about many of the ups and downs and great experiences that we have had. NONE of us regrets ever being in FIRST.

My disapointment mostly comes from in my opinion too much rough play "battle bots." I was just hoping that I could explain some of the frustrations that we have had and that next year there will be less "battle bots"

I'm sorry to those that have found any of my posts offensive. It was not my intention.

[Cody Carey]

It seems that many of you guys are dismissing my thread as a childish rant because of a few poorly worded sentences in my post. Many of you don't even bother to see our point of view

To say that you would not show ANY disapointment if you went through a sitiation like we did then you are flat out lieing to yourself.

Secondly somepeople are being quick to asume that we are whining because we didn't win and that we think is all that matters. Read my post again you will find out that I have told about many of the ups and downs and great experiences that we have had. NONE of us regrets ever being in FIRST.

My disapointment mostly comes from in my opinion too much rough play "battle bots." I was just hoping that I could explain some of the frustrations that we have had and that next year there will be less "battle bots"

I'm sorry to those that have found any of my posts offensive. It was not my intention.


I read, and considered your post. It is labeled "disappointment".
We have gone through the same thing, and we always held our heads high and said "we tried our best." The few poorly
worded sentences that you speak of aren't poorly worded, they are poorly conceived. In them you said that you do more work than everybody.
you are wrong about it being battle bots, as that is obviously what FIRST intended.
Sorry, but I tried to look at it from your POV, and It just doesn't work.

[GaryVoshol]

It seems that many of you guys are dismissing my thread as a childish rant because of a few poorly worded sentences in my post. Many of you don't even bother to see our point of view

To say that you would not show ANY disapointment if you went through a sitiation like we did then you are flat out lieing to yourself.

Secondly somepeople are being quick to asume that we are whining because we didn't win and that we think is all that matters. Read my post again you will find out that I have told about many of the ups and downs and great experiences that we have had. NONE of us regrets ever being in FIRST.

My disapointment mostly comes from in my opinion too much rough play "battle bots." I was just hoping that I could explain some of the frustrations that we have had and that next year there will be less "battle bots"

I'm sorry to those that have found any of my posts offensive. It was not my intention.Thanks Chris, for coming back again with a calm post.

I had a wonderful post written that was lost when the thread was temporarily closed. Part of it said that while people disagreed with you, they had no reason for the tone of their responses.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about appropriate levels of pushing and bumping. When the GDC tells you to play only defense for 40 seconds, and gives you bumpers, you have to expect extra contact this year. At the same time, they reiterate the ban on high-speed and long-distance ramming. There's a balance there. I think your expectations were not in alignment with the game design - in my opinion.

Unfortunately in your disappointment, your initial post did come across as whiny. With another day to rest and think, this one is much better.

[Murf the Smurf]

First i would like to say that your bot this year was amazing. We were at the St. Louis competition and we believe that the pushing and shoving of other bots was not only implied by the rules but also a major part of the game. with the assistance of a camera for aiming the matches would have been a joke if pushing or ramming of the bots was not allowed. most teams were able to program their cam but others had now idea how and for them dumping balls, pushing balls and pushing other shooting bots out of range was the only way they could play the game. i personal thing that if it wasn't for the ability to push other bots around the game this year would not have been any were as fun. it would consist of six bots all facing their respective goals and waiting for the light to turn green again while rookie teams and teams that arn't as skilled in programing climbed the ramp for the 5 points and did nothing but that. our team may not have done well but we two suffered major difficulty's such as our turret snapping on Thursday :ahh: our drive train not working all Friday :confused: and only three matches to regain our dignity on Saturday :( . but we still had fun. first place or last place or anywere inbetween having fun and learning about enginering and science is what FIRST is all about :D

[BRAVESaj25bd8]

I know I gave my opinion earlier in this thread but I would like to now make a post from a different point of view. Chris, I know how you are feeling. I have driven the bot for a few years and have experienced my share of tough calls. It is very often tough to take some of those rulings. The referees, as I'm sure you know, do as good a job as they can to make a fair competition happen. Does this game have defense being played too hard? Maybe, I haven't seen more than 100 matches so I can't really say. Our robot was make offensively minded. We have a kitbot transmission and 6 wheels. Pretty simple design. We worked mostly on how to herd balls and shoot, as you seem to have done, Chris. I was terrified of failure when we got to the competition and the offense did not work very well at all. We shot no more than 5 balls in any match (those were the 5 we started with). We shifted strategies and continued. Defense is a big part of the game this year.

"Defense wins championships"
"The best defense is a good offense"

One of these quotes could be applied to almost every robot. I'm sorry that the second quote did not lead you to the goals you wished to achieve. But as so many have said before myself, please realize what a gift your team received these past 2 years. Many teams will not make it that far in a competition for years to come. You have unfortunately been spoiled with success and I am sorry for that (please do not take that as me calling you spoiled. I simply mean that your incredible first year in FIRST made the competition appear easier than it is). I hate to end this post without clearly defining my point of view but I think all of us can agree that no opinion will ever be agreed on by everyone. So Chris and everyone else, I wish you nothing but the best in future competitions whether they may be this year or in years to come. We're truly all winners already.

[Hieb]

First, as several others from the St. Louis regional have pointed out, 1625 did have an outstanding 'bot. Exciting to watch, a great team to work with, and a little scary to look across the field at (as I did after you scored 99 points against us).

I can also understand the disappointment, as we thought we had a pretty good 'bot this year. Going in to the box the camera worked great, we had varying angles for our launcher, could climb the ramp in practice, and had a very reliable shooter. It turns out, though, that a mistake in the shop had us 5 pounds heavy when we thought we were right on. Long story short--we eventually pulled out the camera and pneumatics and had problems with a chain that was only completely fixed by Saturday morning. 33 out of 40 teams in a previously mentioned "weak" regional probably wouldn't cut it in Atlanta. And yet one of our students, when asked by a local camera crew if she was disappointed by the results, replied "No. That's just what happens. If something breaks, you try to figure out how to fix it. It's about playing the game as best you can."

And while I think they may have gone a bit overboard, the very agressive defensive team was also facing their own problems. They did not arrive in St. Louis with a defensive game plan. Their practice rounds showed that their scoring mechanism wasn't working properly, so they changed tactics and used their incredibly strong drive train to push people wherever they wanted.

Remeber, there can be only one winner (well, OK, three, but you get the point), so most of us will probably feel some disappointment during the course of a FIRST competition. Hopefully the sense of accomplishment, the great people, the thrill of competing, and many more positive experiences are what you finally walk away with once you get past the disappointment.

[Excelsior]

I was a member of one of the teams that beat them that round. I'm sorry that you're dissapointed, but that's how the game played out. We had a team of three defensive robots, and were paired against the top shooter of the regional, how did you expect us to play?

None of our teams had any intention of pushing any of your robots over. I was there for the strategy discussions, it never came up. I'm sorry you lost, but attacking us won't regain you the win. The destruction of 650's flyers was also uncalled for, I don't know what team did it, but it happened, and was quite against the spirit of FIRST.

In short, good luck next year, too bad about this year.

[Toad]

You, my furry little friend, seem rather disappointed.

[sdcantrell56]

I really see no problem with the contact. If we didn't have all of the hitting, the game would be boring. It makes for a much more fun game, and it makes it much more difficult to win because you have to be reliable no matter what. At the peachtree regional, we (1683) ended up being a major defensive player mainly because we had to stop some very good shooters. Sure we would flip over robots, but that was never our intention. I know how you feel dissapointed, as we just lost the regional in the finals also, but FIRST is about so much more than just winning.

[sw293]

For those who have complaints about either this year's rules or head refs who are reluctant to make robot-robot contact calls, I refer you to this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=471129#post471129). Refs should be very hesitant to call penalties in robot contact situations unless they are almost completely certain the contact is intentional and only then when it falls under the guidelines listed in G22.

[ebarker]

I really see no problem with the contact. If we didn't have all of the hitting, the game would be boring. It makes for a much more fun game, and it makes it much more difficult to win because you have to be reliable no matter what. At the peachtree regional, we (1683) ended up being a major defensive player mainly because we had to stop some very good shooters. Sure we would flip over robots, but that was never our intention. I know how you feel dissapointed, as we just lost the regional in the finals also, but FIRST is about so much more than just winning.

I just finished my first FIRST event as an engineering mentor. We ( 1311 ) just lost to you guys ( 1683 ), but we had a blast, it was great fun. You guys have a lot to be proud of. Our machine was not fast, nor nimble, nor really designed for combat, but we had absolutely no complaints from anyone on my team about the contact. We designed for stable long distance autonomous shooting. We had a software problem and blew our first three matchs. At lunch we were last in standings. At the end it we were halfway up the chart. If it hadn't been for the bug, it would have been 8-2-0 or 9-1-0 but we did 5-5-0 and thats okay. The only hardware failure was 3 loosened set screws. Keep your machine together, scuttlebut is we are going to do a scrimmage in the near future in this area, and we will do it again. We will be in Atl as observers in a few weeks.

Ed

[DeAnnaC]

This was my first year as a mentor/parent, so from the perspective of a newbie:

When we got the 'game plan' in Jan, we had to figure out what our small team could/couldn't do - we knew we couldn't get the camera and a shooting device working in 6 weeks, but we could figure out a way to pick up balls..we decided to make ours short so we wouldn't be tipped over.

I thought all the teams built something that they should be proud of - some teams had to build a defensive robot as that's the skill set they have.

I walked out of the Family Arena every day just pumped with energy - how could you not with teams like the Kinigits? (for those who weren't there, think Monty Python's Holy Grail, complete with fuzzy bunny strapped to the top of the robot, and the cast from the movie, complete with a dedicated coconut clapper) Or the rookie team next to us - 1776, wearing the George Washington wigs (don't those itch?) Anyway, we had an awesome time, our kids stuck to the game plan, the robot worked exactly as planned.

Can't wait for next year. I see how you can get addicted to FIRST. :)

DeAnnaC

[Dermot_135]

Hang in there! Things can be tough but thats what being in FIRST is all about! We (team 135) were undefeated until the last few final rounds which landed us at 3rd place at Purdue. But I am so happy that our team did so well and I havenever been happier with our outcome. WInning awards is cool and we were unhappy to leave two events with no awards at all, but earning the respect of other teams and working together to achieve a greater goal is so much better!

[codeoftherobot]

While I dislike targetting FIRST programmers, who in the world put a "third option" in the FIRST field programming? When the computer uses a random process with two options (red or blue) for determining which side goes on offense or defense first, there should not be a third option (no lights). I am going to guess that there is a >= or <= somewhere in that random string. I was seeing that occur many times at SVR and truthfully, as a viewer, it was kind of annoying, especially if one of those occurred in the final matches. What is probably occurring is that the field lights when it hits that "=" rather than a simple "<" or ">", it tries to activate both lights but runs into an error and activates none.