GP, Ramming, and Practice

[Lil' Lavery]

I am one of the most outspoken supporters of physical, defensive play, and will continue to be an outspoken supporter of it. That should only serve to show how serious of a problem I view it as.

There are times for hard contact defense, and there are times where it shouldn't happen. Namely amognst those times are practice matches. You gain nothing by winning, and are penelized nothing be losing. The true point of practice matches is to test and get practice. By playing defense on another bot you are denying them a chance to test and practice effectively. IF you are testing a defensive mechanism, such as a blocking arm or autonomous mode, that's one thing, but otherwise you have no excuse for playing hardcore phsyical defense. The only results that can stem from that is damage and low scoring matches.
I won't mention team numbers, but here are a few examples from Peachtree today of horribly innapropriate actions of defensive acts. After having their shots blocked by the other bot, a team retaliates by pushing them all the way across the field, onto their ramp, and when the opponents try to force their way off of the ramp, they tip over.
In another match, one alliance has far more offensive potential than the other. Instead of just playing superior offense and testing shooters, herders, etc, the defensive alliance repeatedly rams the opposing alliance's biggest offensive threat.
In another match, there are 4 robots in front of one ramp. Instead of allowing the action to diffuse, one bot attempts to push another onto its ramps, causing that robot to tip over.
In the second match (practice matches are held in batches of 2), that team rams the same team it tipped hard into the wall, causing it to be disabled for the remainder of the match.

Two words, Gracious Professionalism. Learn them, Respect them, Live them.

[Tim566]

I agree with you to a certain extent but then again a practice is supposed to be practice for a real match in real situations where this will really happen and you must learn to deal with it at some point or else you will get pushed around during matches. You can practice functionality outside of matches and accuracy maybe in one or two practice matches if the other team agrees with your plan but communication is key. good luck at competition

[Mike Norton]

I do not think by hitting other robots in practice is a good thing. practice is to work out your bugs of the robot and you can not do that by getting hit from other robots. I can see the last practice match you might try to push another robot to see how you stand up to them but to do any harm in anyway to the other robots during practice is very wrong.


You have to wait until the real game to show how strong you are :)


We do like defense but not during the practice round avoid any contact if possible but if hit then all bets are off.

[DjAlamose]

I agree with Lil Lavery, during practice there is no need for defensive measures. What you should be focusing on is testing your robot. Like was said is you are defensive, try and find another defensive robot to match up against. Its always helpful and GP if you go talk with your opponents as well as your alliance before the match. This way everyone on the field can know what’s going on and can accommodate for people wanting to test certain things. Also remember you don’t have to have a backbot on Thursday so please take that into consideration as well.

Informing those that are on the field at that time is the best way to go about doing things. That way everyone is on the same page and everyone can test out their robots. ITS JUST PRACTICE. Remember those words. You have all day Friday and Saturday to prove yourself, let Thursday be for tweaking.

[Jack Jones]

There's a saying that applies here, "practice what you play!" In a game that requires a full period of defense, it would be foolhardy to do otherwise.

On the other hand, cheap shots on the practice field should not be taken kindly to. I'm sure the refs will make a mental note of them as they anticipate the main event.

[JamesBrown]

If you want to play defense then play it by herding a buch of balls fromthe floor or the Human player. From a programmers stand point thursday is very important. Programmers need to see what the robot is doing in order to change it. If we are continuously rammed or pushed around (even in a way that is totally legal) then it is difficult to tell if every thing is working.

It is extremely important to atleast have your early practice matches. If every thing goes well and all the robots in a match are working then all 6 partners can decide to play it just like it would really be played. Practice day is for tweaking, you need to let teams do that.

[Donut]

Some defensive measures are okay to test (for example, you want to see if your robot is capable of blocking other robot's shots). However excessive defense and playing nothing but it for the entire practice match (which robs the opposing team of practice time) is completely unncessary. I have a personal experience with too much defense in practice, last year our robot was rammed so hard by another robot that it bent part of our drive sprockets at about a 30-40 degree angle. In my opinion it is rather unsporstmanlike to damage an opponents robot on practice day, especially when most teams are already busy fixing self inflicted damage or malfunctioning designs.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45444&highlight=defense+practice

[Greg Perkins]

There's a saying that applies here, "practice what you play!" In a game that requires a full period of defense, it would be foolhardy to do otherwise.

On the other hand, cheap shots on the practice field should not be taken kindly to. I'm sure the refs will make a mental note of them as they anticipate the main event.

As a ref at Pittsburgh last year I can tell you that us ref's paid little attention to the robots. We were still trying to streamline our calls, and understand the rules as best as we could. I would'nt rely on ref's on thursday to take note or robots simply because they are busy still learning the rules.

As for Lil' Lavery, 100% on the nose with this. Defense in practice is so low; for those teams who didn't have a chance to test prior to ship and thursday being thier only day to test, those teams who built their bot in probably 3 weeks with the mindset of defense and who have had the other 3 weeks to practice driving should respect the teams who need to comb out their robot. What satisfaction do you defensive teams get?

[Ianworld]

I know that my team has tested our defensive capability during practice matches but we did it in a controller manner. We would usually ask our alliance partners or somebody on the opposing team if it was okay if we play defense/test our strength against them. Then at a prescribed time we'd go and try to push each other or we'd attempt to play defense on them. As a team that desperately uses every single practice opportunity we get(we'll be on our 3rd or 4th major drive train set up by the end of our second regional) We also understand that some teams really want to test their defense capability. Usually any team we ask to practice with or on is a robot that seems pretty sure of itself already. A team that is still working out the kinks is not fair play in my book.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

While I tend to agree with lil Lavery (see my other posts on in brutal play), playing defense is part of the game. As a matter of fact, most winning alliances this year have played very brutal defense. If you cannot play offense while someone is hounding you defensively, then you will not do well this year. Therefore, I would suggest you thank those that are showing you what your capabilities are in REAL GAME situations, rather than asking them to 'take it easy' on you.

JMHO

[KenWittlief]

At the FLR there was a goal setup by the pit area that teams could use to test their light trackers and shooters.

Practice on thrusday should be like practice for a football or basketball game - you sort of play, but you dont put your own team-mates in the hospital in a practice game.

The matches are setup like real games, except for the time. If FIRST didnt want this time to be 'like a real match' they could have let the teams on the field for 10 minutes to do what they want.

There is a simple answer for this problem. Make up yellow signs or triangles or something you can put on your robot. If your robot has not yet been inspected, or you are still missing stuff (like bumpers) on thrusday, you put the big yellow triangle on your bot, and all the teams are told this means "NO CONTACT!"

Then teams who want to mix it up on thursday and see how well they can push each other around will know which bots want to play, and which ones are being tested and debugged.

[Freddy Schurr]

I agree with Lil Lavery and there should be no ramming during pratice matches. Yes, I totally agree that it is not fair and not showing GP.

[Metalcrafters]

I would like to add that all of this is for "FUN" "SERIOUS" " "COMPETITION” and some seem to forget that all the teams put countless hours of work into their bot to COMPETE, each of us holding great personal pride in our creations. (For most of us this is FUN and SERIOUS)

Now for the COMPETITION side of things! "FUN" & "SERIOUS"

I don't think anyone will argue the value developing a strategy that brings out our bots abilities is important to refine. When it comes to competition we all push hard and strive to be the best. That is what it is all about. Excitement! (FUN) Gracious Professionalism

GP (SERIOUS) is key for all to enjoy this side of competition! Ramming during practice or even during the FINALS and playing defense are two different things that accomplish two different goals. Both give you a REPUTIATION…Good or BAD

All I suggest that once a bot is down (tipped over, disabled...) it accomplishes nothing by ramming it. Defense is great but broken bots make for empty spots on the field…

We learned first hand what it feels like to be rammed continuously while being down. It hurts. Not the bot but our pride. We can fix anything and get back out on the field, but fixing a REPUTATION takes longer both on and off the field!

I wish All Teams the best in the continuous game of LIFE

[The Lucas]

During the first 20 sec of a practice match last year, a robot rammed us while we were disabled in the human player loading station. It ripped a tread off our bot and we were unable to continue the practice match. After the match, the referees talked to their drivers. I applaud the refs for communicating that this behavior is unacceptable and would garner penalties (30+ pts) in a real match. I encourage other refs to provide similar feedback based on practice matches.

[devicenull]

Some defense is needed during the practice matches.. oUr robot works perfectly in the shop, we make 9/10 shots. We got on the field, and even the slightest pushing was throwing our accuracy off. I'd rather find out about this on Thursday, when we can refine our strategy to deal with it, then on Friday or Saturday, when the matches actually count.

Ramming shouldn't be done Thursday, but if you are getting pushed around, then the other team is probably helping you figure out what you need to do to counter it.

[Jaine Perotti]

Reading through the above posts, I agree with many of the points being made from both sides. However, I do want to bring up a few points, coming from the point of view of a historically "defensive" team:

1) Robots playing defense need time to practice too. Good defensive driving requires just as much finesse and practice as does offensive driving/operating.

2) Robots playing offense do need to take defensive play into consideration when practicing. These drivers/operators need to have practice responding to defensive play, which will certainly occur during official matches.

However, the exceptions to the aforementioned points are as follows:

1) If a defensive robot wants to practice their defensive play during a practice match, they should notify the opposing alliance to make sure that they are prepared and willing to take defensive play against them. They should leave offensive robots alone if the team says that they wish to practice without defense in order to get their basic systems up and running.

2) Robots playing offense, who need to get their basic systems up and running (i.e. a robot that was not yet finished upon shipment, and needed to be tested) or are trying to debug, should not have to be faced with defensive play. Therefore, it is their responsibility to ask the opposing alliance not to play defense against them.

If you felt that your robot was being unfairly targeted by defensive play during a practice match, next time, talk to the other alliance about letting you have a chance to debug.

While I do believe it is appropriate for robots to practice their defensive maneuvers, I don't think it is appropriate when it prevents another team from debugging. But after an offensive robot is up and running without defensive interference, I think it would be wise for them to try practicing with defensive interference. That way, they can develop their own methods of repositioning and maneuvering so as to minimize the effect that defense may have on them. It is just as important for them to practice avoiding defensive interference as it is for them to practice shooting balls in the goal without intrusion.


-- Jaine

[Jaine Perotti]

I agree with Lil Lavery and there should be no ramming during pratice matches. Yes, I totally agree that it is not fair and not showing GP.

I always hate picking on individual people by quoting them, but I wanted to mention that I think the term "GP" and "gracious professionalism" are thrown around much to frequently on the forums. I don't think it is ever healthy to take black and white stances - making broad generalizations over a fairly complex subject. Labeling a broad action - such as defense during practice rounds - as "unfair" or "un-gracious professionalism", can be dangerous.

What if a team playing defense against an offensive robot was unaware of the fact that the offensive robot wanted to be left alone so that it could debug its shooter? I wouldn't rush to label this as "un-GP" behavior. Rather, I would label this as being simply unaware of the situation. This is why I propose that alliances talk to each other about whether or not they should play defense during each practice round. That way, you can tell the opposing robot to leave you alone so that you can score.

Plus, I think there are times when it is appropriate to play defense during practice matches. If an offensive robot states that they would like to practice WITH defensive interference, it is perfectly GP if the defensive robot chooses to play defense against them. If there were a rule stating "ALL DEFENSE DURING PRACTICE MATCHES IS BAD" then many teams would be deprived of much needed practice.

So again, I am stating that there are times when it is appropriate, and times when it is not appropriate.

Broad generalizations are not good representations of reality.

-- Jaine

[Andrew Blair]

ehhem... Excuse me while I take my soapbox...


Practice day's exist to give all teams a taste of competition. They do not exist soley as a refinment and calibration period, though some teams may choose to use them as such. There are also no restrictions on gameplay during these periods. Because they are not scored or recorded however, if you wish to be left alone during the period, it would make a lot of sense to talk to the teams playing, and tell them your intentions. I'm sure all teams would avoid you if you simply asked. However, a team that plays within all constraints of the game, even during a practice match, should not be persecuted or be looked down upon because they didn't use their time as you wanted them to.

Gracious professionalism is, when possible, being considerate towards your opponent. However, this does not include seeking your team out to see what you want to do. Not every team knows your shooter needs calibration entering a practice match.

Breaking Robots== Bad.

Playing Your Game==Good.

Just have to find the happy medium!

[Ken Leung]

Pushing or ramming of other robots during the practice round without their permission is simply unacceptable. Period. I don't care if you think they are ready, I don't care if you think playing tough is important in the game.

The bottom line is, you do not know the condition of the other robots on the field unless you talk to the other teams about it. Certain parts of the robots might still be being worked on, wires might be loose, batteries might not be tired down completely, parts might go flying if your robot hit them without warning, robots might not have been inspected at all.

Ask the other team if they want to play rough. Go ahead if they say yes. I don't really care what you do as long as both teams know what's happening.

The bottom line is, talk it through first. Don't make any assumption. I don't care what you think is fun, or important. Other people might not see it that way. Play rough during actual rounds when everyone expect it to happen.

[Tim566]

It would seem that everyone appears to agree with me on the fact that communication is key. Tell the other participants in the particular practice match your situation and I am sure they will understand.

[lukevanoort]

I know this will sound a little strange, but I like it when people play rough against us in a practice match. If a team smacks the upper part of the robot where the structure is weak or tips it, that's another matter, but I don't really mind people ramming us at moderately speeds (clearly not 7+) in a practice match. My logic is simple, I want them to reveal to us the weak parts. Then we have a good amount of time to fix them. The other option is to have them fail in an elimination, or qualifier where the stakes are much higher and you have less time to fix it. That said, if a team asked us to leave them alone, I would, at the very least for the first matchish thing.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I guess I'll be seconding Ken Leung for the first part of this post.

First, think of it from a safety standpoint. Robots need not be inspected before going out on the field on practice day. You literally have no idea what condition an opposing team's robot is in. For all you know, they've got a little bottle of nitroglycerin on the robot, waiting to explode when they get bumped. Basically, they know the limitations and physical condition of their robot. You have no idea. If you instigate actions that cause their robot to explode, it is entirely your fault. Entirely. Remember their robot could be a danger to itself, to other robots, or to the field and spectators.

Second, I've never seen the practice matches as simulating anything close to an actual match. Perhaps in a very very loose form. This is because I know most of the teams out their are fixing their robots or tuning systems. They're not really playing to win. If you actually think it's anything like a real match, you're fooling yourself. And yes, waaaaay back in the stone age (5 or so years ago), practice "matches" were, in fact, 10 whole minutes of free-form do whatever you like with your robot. There were students and coaches on the field examining robots working and resetting scoring items, etc. This has stopp because of safety issues, and because FIRST has introduced autonomous mode and various timing dependent elements of the matches. You can't have the full free-form style of practice with elements like that, but I don't really think the spirit of practice matches has changed much. To quote the rule book (which really should've been done a while ago):
7.5.1 Practice Rounds
Your registration envelope will contain a list of Thursday practice times and indicate on which field you will practice. Teams cannot switch practice times.
7.5.1.1 Time Slots
All teams will receive a list of all the practice times. Your team must be ready to practice at the designated times and on the specified fields. If your team/robot cannot be ready for your practice time slot, send in the human player only or forfeit the practice slot entirely. Your team members may want to scout other teams and their strategies.
7.5.1.2 Courtesy
In order to make the most of practice time, there will be a specified number of teams on a field during an assigned practice slot. Each team must be respectful of the other teams sharing the field. Friendly interaction between machines is acceptable if all teams are willing. Un-sportsman-like conduct on the part of a team during practice could result in loss of practice time.
Assume other teams are unwilling. If they're trying to avoid other robots and just shoot goals, they're probably unwilling. If they come after you first, they're probably willing, even if you're not. Note also that the rules call them practice times, not matches.

Finally, it's practice time. It's nice that defensive teams want to practice defense, but again, other teams want to practice other things. If you pin or flip over a robot in a practice round, that team has lost all that time. Apply the golden rule. Would you like it if someone arbitrarily declared that your practice round has been revoked? I assure you it will feel like that to some of those teams.

Upon futher discussion with my better half...
However, a team that plays within all constraints of the game, even during a practice match, should not be persecuted or be looked down upon because they didn't use their time as you wanted them to.The implication of this statement is that it is, instead, entirely within your rights to force them to use their time as you want them to. I would tend to err on the side of unselfishness.

[Andrew Blair]

Upon futher discussion with my better half...
The implication of this statement is that it is, instead, entirely within your rights to force them to use their time as you want them to. I would tend to err on the side of unselfishness.

Well, I guess that's in need of some revision. Perhaps it would be better said:

"All teams possess the right to practice their strategy, and as such, must be respectful towards each side (Robot interaction vs. Independent tuning), so as not to compromise any team's ability to use their practice time more than anyone else"

That would create a situation in which teams defend to a small margin, while others tune to a small margin, a happy average.

I guess the point is that teams who defend should be most courteous, as they are interacting with others, but they should be, in no way unable to interact in such a way during practice matches if done carefully and respectively. Foremost, communication. And in no way, intent to destroy. That's something we're never supposed to do. Ever.

[GB330033]

As a member of a defensive-minded team who hasn't competed yet (We're going to Lone Star) I'm not sure how to comment. I really liked the earlier comment of having tags to designate bots as "non-contact" during practice. Going back to the football practice analogy made by someone earlier, this is similar to having your quarterback wear a red (or just off-color) jersey in practice. It's a signal to everyone "HEY! He's important and fragile! Don't hit him!" I don't think you can completely restrict defensive play in practice, because that's unfair to the defensive teams. However, as has been stated, you can't allow teams to run rampant and play full-on defense during practice, because that's unfair to the offensive teams.

All in all, let's get some tags to designate who's playing and who's not, and find some sort of happy-medium.

[Stuart]

well I personaly think that if you want to practice defence durring the poractice rounds . . its ok. just let the team your practicing on know whats going on and ask if they are ok with it . . they may have just gotten their robot working. . . would be akin to sucker punching a 10 year old in a wheel chair, just an't cool.

as far as tags I think thats a good idea . . I think well make some while were printing off all our sprit/marketing/scouting sheets.

[EricH]

I'll bring up a scenario that most certainly could happen--
Thursday afternoon: REDATEAM A has a really good defense bot. They need a little more practice, and it's their last match of three. BLUEATEAM A has the best shooter in FIRST. Period. It can beat any three other shooters, if it's working properly, calibrated, etc. REDATEAM A decides to practice on BLUEATEAM A, who just got onto the field for the first time. REDATEAM A beats up BLUEATEAM A, and in the process, damages the shooter and the BLUEATEAM A programmers can't see if their program even works or not.

Fast forward to Friday morning. REDATEAM A is allied with BLUEATEAM A in their first match. BLUEATEAM A has not had time for repairs, and they are against three good shooters. Who wins? The other alliance. Why? REDATEAM A damaged BLUEATEAM A the day before.


My point? If you are not careful who you practice defense on and how, you could shoot yourself in the foot.

I would support the signs for "Don't hit me" during practice rounds with one reservation: If a robot with one of those signs starts playing hard defense-more than incidental contact-they are fair game for the rest of the match, because they are ready for defense.

[Cody Carey]

Everybody on this thread is clustering "Damaging" with "Playing Defense", and they are clearly not the same thing. I can play defense and not damage anything... But I will stop you from making a single shot. Damaging isn't supposed to be done in the real game, so of course it isn't allowed in practices.
Both offensive and defensive robots need practice... but a defensive robot practicing on an offensive robot that's not playing offence won't help anything, Just as an offensive robot practicing against a defensive robot that isn't touching them won't help anybody.

I think that the bottom line is this:

Practice matches are exactly like any-other matches and should be played as such, No robot trying to damage any other robot, but robots playing a hard defense and a solid offense,


Besides a robot that's not finished, which would be obvious by the state of their pits when your scouts come around... I don't see any reason not to practice the Actual game.

[Lil' Lavery]

People have taken my original statement out of context. I never once said that defense during practice matches was bad. I used terms like "hard contact defense" and "hardcore physical defense". I even explicitly said that testing of defensive systems is fully acceptable. I agree, defensive bots do need practice, and you do need to simulate real game actions.
BUT, you should not have to deal with some of the more physical play that may be acceptable during the qualification and elimination matches. Issues like pinning, ramming, tipping, and robot damage should never come into play during the practice matches. Teams should not have to worry about being essentially pinned onto their own ramp by another robot. Many teams are not designed to go on and off the ramp easily, if at all. I have seen multiple cases during practice matches of teams getting shoved onto their ramp, and because their design inhibits them from getting off the ramp properly, they lose the remainder of that practice match (in addition to the time where they were being shoved onto the ramp).
It is un-gracious, and un-professional to essentially eliminate a teams testing time by playing strong physical defense on them. Off-field and practice field testing are never the same as on-field testing, for many various reasons, even aside of the presence of other robots. Many teams do not possess full scale fields to test on, and many regionals do not have full practice fields either. They both often just possess a segment of the field with key scoring elements on it. This does not allow you to test certain autonomous and driving funtions, and even some long range shooters.

[GB330033]

Ah, I see your point now. In that case, I completely agree. Those sort of actions should not occur during practice. No one should be allowed to essentially tell other teams how long they get to practice for. The one exception I could see, and of course it'd have to be arranged, is for a team to see if they could push another up the ramp. Then again, considering the risks in testing that, I doubt anyone would ever try it in practice anyway...

[Jack Jones]

As a ref at Pittsburgh last year I can tell you that us ref's paid little attention to the robots. We were still trying to streamline our calls, and understand the rules as best as we could. I would'nt rely on ref's on thursday to take note or robots simply because they are busy still learning the rules.

As for Lil' Lavery, 100% on the nose with this. Defense in practice is so low; for those teams who didn't have a chance to test prior to ship and thursday being thier only day to test, those teams who built their bot in probably 3 weeks with the mindset of defense and who have had the other 3 weeks to practice driving should respect the teams who need to comb out their robot. What satisfaction do you defensive teams get?

As a ref at GLR, Detroit, MWR, WMR, and Atlanta last year, I can tell you I went into them knowing the rules, and had all the time in the world to make sure the teams knew them too. Failure to prepare is never a good excuse for anything.

Number 71 took a nasty fall off the ramp in practice here at MWR and nobody heard them crying about it. They and 1213 have been at it all day - clean as heck - but they both came to play. :) Tomorrow's going to be awesome. "No place for a nervous person!", as we say back home in Hockey Town.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Everybody om this thread is clustering "Damaging" with "Playing Defense", and they are clearly not the same thing. I can play defense and not damage anything... But I will stop you from making a single shot. Damaging isn't supposed to be done in the real game, so of course it isn't allowed in practices.
Both offensive and defensive robots need practice... but a defensive robot practicing on an offensive robot that's not playing offence won't help anything, Just as an offensive robot practicing against a defensive robot that isn't touching them won't help anybody.

I think that the bottom line is this:

Practice matches are exactly like any-other matches and should be played as such, No robot trying to damage any other robot, but robots playing a hard defense and a solid offense,
Besides a robot that's not finished, which would be obvious by the state of their pits when your scouts come around... I don't see any reason not to practice the Actual game.

I refer you to my rules post earlier in the thread, and the following excerpt from section 8:
8.2 PRACTICE ROUNDS
8.2.1 Schedule
The Practice Rounds will be played all day Thursday. The Practice Rounds schedule will be available on Thursday morning. Practice Rounds will be randomly assigned. Each team will be assigned an equal number of Practice Rounds. At some events, additional rounds may be available on a standby basis. Each Practice Round will consist of a ten-minute period in which teams may operate their robot on the field. The first five minutes of each Practice Round will start with a 10-second autonomous period, and followed by a “free-form” session, in which the robots may be exercised to evaluate operational characteristics, gain driver experience, determine system robustness, etc. The second five minutes of each Practice Round will be conducted as a “match” with approximately two minutes for set up, two minutes and fifteen seconds of regular game play (including autonomous operations), and one minute to clear the field.
As far as I'm concerned, the rules specifically state that practice rounds are not meant to be played like the actual game. And "friendly interaction" between robots is allowed if all teams are willing.

As to your first point, yes you can certainly stop me from making any shot if you defend me well enough. I'm well aware of this and don't really care to test the fact if my primary concern in that practice match is testing camera code and dialing in the shooter. If you prevent me from ever sitting still long enough to do so, you've wasted my whole practice round for me, and I will not thank you for it. If you defend me beacuse from your scouting, you assume I'm done testing my robot... well everyone knows what assuming does. As noted by others above, I think communication is very important. But I think the onus should be on teams intending to interfere with other robots practicing and testing. Better to ask permission than forgiveness, as my parents told me.

[Dillon Compton]

...The second five minutes of each Practice Round will be conducted as a “match” with approximately two minutes for set up, two minutes and fifteen seconds of regular game play...

The rule clearly states that regular game play is allowed, and expected, for the second five minutes of each mach. And as for all you folks who think defensive bot have been practicing for 3 weeks? wrong. We were forced to change our design last-minute, and now will have a functional side goal delivery system as well as a very strong defensive bot - what this means is that we have work to do on thursday, and will probably make most of our practice matches - we plan on primarily practicing driving, ball collection, etc... But we would be FOOLS to not practice realistic defensive driving at least once or twice; the practice round is to work out the kinks in systems, and to test, as the rule quoted in the post above my says, "System Robustness". Sure, we dont want to eliminate all of your practice time by tipping you or getting you stuck on the ramp, but dont $@#$@#$@#$@#$@# if we push you around a bit- that our strategy and our system and it deserves just as much testing in our practice rounds as your shooters deserve in yours. I mean, come on folks, just because you had the resources, time, knowledge or what-have-you to build a "fancier" robot does not mean that we robots with a focus on defense should be forced to effectively forfeit our practice opportunities; there WILL be goals at the regionals, off to the side of the Pits like there are every year; if you need more time to calibrate your camera, feel free to use them!

I plan, if I am driving, to practice defense in the practice rounds within reasonable limits; I will, of course, be sure to avoid damaging other robots. If someone asks me not to hit them because they are calibrating a system, I'm fine with that.

But I dont need to and probably WONT (barring contrary instruction from a coach/mentor/the rest of the team) loose my entire practice round and just practice basic driving because everyone wants to line up in front of their goal and shoot for 2 minutes. Expect defense to be played - we ALL need to test our bots, not just the shooters. Expect me to give you time to calibrate, maybe even leave you alone for the entire two 40 second periods, but when the free for all comes, I'm testing my defense.


Good luck all,
Dillon Compton

[Kevin Sevcik]

Ahem. Well, not to harp on things but a few final points, then I'll wander off for the day. First, the Courtesy section in the rules I quoted earlier, says that "friendly interaction" is allowed if all teams are willing. If you want to be discourteous or think FIRST can't suggest how you use your practice matches, well... fine. I'm pretty sure the "regular game play" means the field will be pretending it's an actual match. I don't think it's mandating that the teams do so.

Second, defending in a practice match still won't be anything like a normal match. If a robot doesn't want to be defended, they're not going to be working at competition levels. Even then, defenders aren't likely to have other robots running interference on them. I think practice matches are, by definition, not real matches.

Finally, teams are saying that they're okay with other teams asking not to be defended. Why can't you just assume that other teams don't want to be defended and then ask to see if they're okay with it? Assuming another team wants to be annoyed seems backwards to me. And annoying other teams seems like a bad idea.

[Dillon Compton]

Ahem. Well, not to harp on things but a few final points, then I'll wander off for the day. First, the Courtesy section in the rules I quoted earlier, says that "friendly interaction" is allowed if all teams are willing.


Ah, I had actually missed that part of the rules section- agreed, in this case, then. Friendly interaction = FIRST rule = the way it'll happen.

My opinion of the fact that people need to be aware that defensive 'bots need practice too still stands; I would hope, even if you have to calibrate systems or something, you all dont just say "NO CONTACT" because you are afraid of breaking something; We wont slam you against walls against your will, you let us practice pushing you around for a minute out of ten, or something.

I think we are all mature enough to agree that everyone deserves fair times to practice their systems, be they defensive or offensive in nature.

-Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[hansTP2S]

What if you want to practice defense?

[Joe_Widen]

Over the past weeks, I've read a lot about the practice matches being to physical and defensive. The easyiest thing to do is talk to you opponents and politely tell them what the purpose of this match is for you. If you want to try your shooter than tell them. If you want some pressure on you while your shooting tell them. Most teams have no problem helping you out. You cant expect someone to not do something if you havent asked them not to.

Saying that, good luck to all on behalf of Team 1675.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Thats How It Should Be, ALWAYS

you do what they want you to do, and they do what u want them to do. remember, you have TWO matches douring each practice game....match....whatever.

[Ethulin]

Over the past weeks, I've read a lot about the practice matches being to physical and defensive. The easyiest thing to do is talk to you opponents and politely tell them what the purpose of this match is for you. If you want to try your shooter than tell them. If you want some pressure on you while your shooting tell them. Most teams have no problem helping you out. You cant expect someone to not do something if you havent asked them not to.

Saying that, good luck to all on behalf of Team 1675.

Agreed.

But what if one team wants to practice their defense and the other alliance does not want to be defended?

[Winged Globe]

But what if one team wants to practice their defense and the other alliance does not want to be defended?

Be gracious and compromise? One match left alone and the other with defense? Play defense on the other robots only (if they don't mind)? Play defense during part of the match only?

[meaubry]

Over the past weeks, I've read a lot about the practice matches being to physical and defensive. The easyiest thing to do is talk to you opponents and politely tell them what the purpose of this match is for you. If you want to try your shooter than tell them. If you want some pressure on you while your shooting tell them. Most teams have no problem helping you out. You cant expect someone to not do something if you havent asked them not to.

Saying that, good luck to all on behalf of Team 1675.

I merged thread titled (please read this with the ramming during practice and gp thread) - its all about the same thing really.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Be gracious and compromise? One match left alone and the other with defense? Play defense on the other robots only (if they don't mind)? Play defense during part of the match only?
A suggestion. There are 5 teams besides yourself on the field. It's not a real match. You're only out of luck if all 5 teams don't want to be defended, since there's no reason a Red team can't practice on another Red team.

[Koko Ed]

A suggestion. There are 5 teams besides yourself on the field. It's not a real match. You're only out of luck if all 5 teams don't want to be defended, since there's no reason a Red team can't practice on another Red team.
Sometimes it looked like in some qualifying matches that some teams were being defended by thier own allaince partners. :rolleyes:

[Not2B]

There is a simple answer for this problem. Make up yellow signs or triangles or something you can put on your robot. If your robot has not yet been inspected, or you are still missing stuff (like bumpers) on thrusday, you put the big yellow triangle on your bot, and all the teams are told this means "NO CONTACT!"



Now that's a good idea.

I imagine that teams would respect that. (If not... what the heck is up with them!?!?)

[koozman]

As a ref, I wouldn't mind if teams asked to be left alone...some teams might want to practice but not be manhandled. Tell the refs and we can inform the other team: like when you see in football practice, the QB has a special jersey on so that the defensive team doesn't touch him. I think the other teams would be gracious enough to leave them alone.

[EricH]

there WILL be goals at the regionals, off to the side of the Pits like there are every year; if you need more time to calibrate your camera, feel free to use them!
Ahem...You are assuming that the lighting at the practice field and the real deal is the same. It isn't. If a team calibrates for the practice field, their camera probably won't work on the real field. It's happened to us. So, if you play defense on us (even though you don't break us) before our shooter is dialed in, and we can't dial it in, and you are paired with us the next day, don't expect to have us shoot at our best!

[Jaine Perotti]

There is a simple answer for this problem. Make up yellow signs or triangles or something you can put on your robot. If your robot has not yet been inspected, or you are still missing stuff (like bumpers) on thrusday, you put the big yellow triangle on your bot, and all the teams are told this means "NO CONTACT!"Now that's a good idea.

I imagine that teams would respect that. (If not... what the heck is up with them!?!?)This would be a good idea, but in order for it to work, I think it would need to be something made official by FIRST. That way it would be a universally accepted signal telling other teams not to play defense against the sign-wearer. It's not likely that every team in FIRST is going to read through this thread and realize that this is the way to make your intentions known. FIRST would have to officially tell all teams to do this in order for this to serve as the solution to the problem.

So - until FIRST makes "sign-wearing" the official communication method of intent, talk to the opposing alliance before your practice match.
Let them know whether or not you are interested in having them play heavy defense on your robot. I am sure that they would honor your request.

-- Jaine

[Nuttyman54]

As Ed said, practice on your alliance partner if you want. A good way to practice defense might be against another defensive robot on either alliance.
On a similar note, you also don't have to necessarily practice shooting on your own goal. At SVR, the Cheesy Poofs were shooting whenever they had balls, in both goals, and when the lights were off.

[Dillon Compton]

Ahem...You are assuming that the lighting at the practice field and the real deal is the same. It isn't. If a team calibrates for the practice field, their camera probably won't work on the real field. It's happened to us. So, if you play defense on us (even though you don't break us) before our shooter is dialed in, and we can't dial it in, and you are paired with us the next day, don't expect to have us shoot at our best!

I'm not using the camera, so take what I am saying with a grain of salt;

Wasnt the point of using a lit target to standardize color values across the board? Does this not work as planned?

People seem to be over-reacting to what I'm saying I think; sure, if we make it so you cant dial in your shooter, and we get paired with you on friday and you cant shoot at 100% capability, it's our fault, but... The same concept is applicable to us being able to practice defense; if you get paired with US, and we dont get to practice defensive driving, and some robot gets away from us and scores some goals to win the game...your bad; we didnt get to practice.

Share and share alike; if you expect to be allowed to test and calibrate your shooter, please allow other teams to practice defense against you...it's only fair.