The Ugliest Trend Yet

[Koko Ed]

Chiefdelphi is a great resource for all of FIRST to use over the years and has grown into a community that has taken a life of it's own. It has provided answers for those who needed it and advice for those who seek it. It is a place to get information about teams and robots that you would not be able to get on the general FIRST site and is a great place to meet up with friends and make new ones.
There has always been controversy because of how tightly moderated the page is (which I think has gotten much better than it used to be. They let alot more go than they used to). Believe me I have been to alot of message boards that are not as tightly moderated, If at all (my first message board the lead moderator said it would be more cost effective if he didn't moderate the page at all and all hell broke out after that. I nearly left when someone had the nerve to create a racist joke thread. I had never been so broken hearted over something done over the internet in my life and I surfed the wretched page of Stormwatch for a school paper before). This place had been relatively free of trolls over the years.
Ever since Silencenomore graced these pages I have noticed a dark turn for the worst that has been haunting these pages recently, where actual trolling occurs. Team members now post anonymously separate from their team and use this freedom to now post vicious accusations and rants against other teams for perceived wrongs or just use it to be rude and obnoxious.
This is a resource that everyone in FIRST can use and enjoy not just to post here but hundreds more just come by and read what has been posted. It just sad that alot of selfish individuals have decided to come here to start trouble because they think that this page is their toilet to dump their grievances against other teams and individuals in FIRST and don't even have the courage to do so with thier team mentioned with them because not only would their team suffer the consequences of their actions but they would most likely be dealt with for what they have done.
What's the solution? I don't know if there is one and what really disturbs me is it can only get worse (much worse, trust me on that) and the luster on the CD could be lost forever and that is truly a sad thing indeed.

[Wayne C.]

I looked up that user name and like you Ed I am appalled at what has been written . This is not a radical political forum. It is a place for kids to go and have fun with robotics. There is no room for hate mongering here.

I think the CD management should not allow users that fail to identify with a team. If they are alumni they have past teams to identify with. If they are new to FIRST they should develop a relationship with a team and be taught gracious professionalism before they are allowed to register.

At least if they have a team association there would be a contact person who could make them accountable. If these bozos dont have the courage to identify themselves and be accountable for their actions they are no more than losers and not worth having the right to post here.

WC :cool:

[Rich Wong]

I have reported this user's postings in the past.
I think a "Three strike and you're out" rule should apply.

[Koko Ed]

I looked up that user name and like you Ed I am appalled at what has been written . This is not a radical political forum. It is a place for kids to go and have fun with robotics. There is no room for hate mongering here.

I think the CD management should not allow users that fail to identify with a team. If they are alumni they have past teams to identify with. If they are new to FIRST they should develop a relationship with a team and be taught gracious professionalism before they are allowed to register.

At least if they have a team association there would be a contact person who could make them accountable. If these bozos dont have the courage to identify themselves and be accountable for their actions they are no more than losers and not worth having the right to post here.

WC :cool:
Actually compared to the people who are posting anonymously now and calling out teams for supposed transactions that may or may not have happened. Silencenomore was just really obnoxious but not as directly hurtful to other FIRST teams. To just call out other FIRST teams and make accusation against them without proof not only discredits them for what they have done recently but ever. Especially when these fools probably haven't put in anywhere near the time and effort into the FIRST community that they have.

[nehalita]

I am only relatively new and was not here during the time that SilenceNoMore was around these threads. I have, however, noticed that sometimes, there are radical and accusative posts and I applaud those who are mature about it and try to work around it.

But, as Koko Ed said, it's not exactly getting better and can get worse. Since this is not a technical problem, I don't think we can provide a technical solution. Rather, this is an ethical problem.

Thus, we must take it upon ourselves to find a way to keep these forums clean. This means that if we find a slightly biased post, we need to find a way to contact them to let them know that their post isn't appreciated here. I'm not saying this will work -- but that is not in our hands. Our actions are in our hands and if we find something that is un-GP or just plain wrong, we should let them know by messaging them and letting them know.

I'm not saying we should put salt on a wound -- we need to make sure when we let others know about their posts that we don't return the rude attitude. There are other ways to inform someone about their post without making crude remarks (two wrongs don't make a right) and although they might not seem as effective, they are.

That's my take on it. We keep "values" in society by influencing each other and cd is kind of like a society. We may have technological barriers but then again, if need be, we can use technological means to get rid of these problems as well. I've been to other forums in the past but this is the only one I have actually stuck with because of the positive and helpful atmosphere. Let's keep it that way.

Nice post Koko Ed =)

[Jason Morrella]

It just sad that alot of selfish individuals have decided to come here to start trouble because they think that this page is their toilet to dump their grievances against other teams and individuals in FIRST and don't even have the courage to do so with thier team mentioned with them because not only would their team suffer the consequences of their actions but they would most likely be dealt with for what they have done.
What's the solution? I don't know if there is one and what really disturbs me is it can only get worse (much worse, trust me on that) and the luster on the CD could be lost forever and that is truly a sad thing indeed.


Couldn't agree with you more Ed - last week there was a similar instance at another regional, and I posted the below, which I think applies to the thread you've started:


I wish CD had a rule that all registered users had to identify themselves to post - it would certainly eliminate most (not all) of the petty and slanderous posts made on this forum. As others have pointed out - it is a private forum, they can run it however they want, they do (and should) make rules for their forum, and if you/I/we don't like it, then don't come on the forum. If they want to moderate/delete posts they don't feel are constructive or gracious, all the power to them.

As a general rule, I know that most people I speak to in FIRST who frequent Chief Delphi do not put much stock in statements/comments/slander made by people anonymously. When I see someone make an anonymous post which flames/insults/slanders another team or person - I (and I think many) associate one, some or all of the following with the post and the person making it:

pettiness, frustration, anger, resentment, jealousy, poor sportsmanship, ignorance, cowardice, doesn't handle losing well, in most cases doesn't really know anything of substance about the person or team they are talking about, and their post is just assumptions and speculations they "think" are true but actually aren't (or flat out attacks and/or lies they know aren't true but are making because they can do so anonymously).

This is obviously about many posts over the years on CD where people let their personal issues (see above list) cloud their objectivity, and the result is that they put down an entire team which NEVER deserves it. If you have a problem with a person or a few people on a team, fine. Don't discredit all the students and mentors on that team who put so much time, effort and passion into their program.

My opinion - if you feel you have something of value to say, something important, something factual, and something informative to share with the community - then do so with some conviction and be honest about who you are and what your bias/agenda/opinion might be. Everyone on this forum has opinions and everyone at some point disagrees greatly with what others think/say - that's great in a constructive and respectful atmosphere - we can certainly agree to disagree and still share our views. But stand up for your views and make them YOURS if you are going to post them, not some anonymous view you don't have to take credit for.

sorry for the soap box - just hate to see posts try to discredit the accomplishments and hard work of any teams, and especially the students on those teams.

[lukevanoort]

Those Silencenomore posts were appalling, but after a while they became darkly funny. I'm amazed anybody would say that sort of stuff in a public forum. Most of the other people I've seen racking up negative rep tend to have somewhat of a point but say it in the wrong way. That was just incredible, Dean Kamen trying to subvert the American economy? As for the whole issue, I haven't seen much of this, but that could be because I spend most of my time in the technical forums where it's seems that less of this occurs. Maybe the solution isn't to restrict more, but make a anonymous shot out where you can just say "I hate team 666" (<- not a real team) it could be a moderated one to keep people from being really vulgar or specific, so they couldn't say "Team 666's driver is a stupid #@&$ and %#@$ moron." However, I may just be nuts and this would make the problem worse,
I don't know.

[Koko Ed]

Those Silencenomore posts were appalling, but after a while they became darkly funny. I'm amazed anybody would say that sort of stuff in a public forum. Most of the other people I've seen racking up negative rep tend to have somewhat of a point but say it in the wrong way. That was just incredible, Dean Kamen trying to subvert the American economy? As for the whole issue, I haven't seen much of this, but that could be because I spend most of my time in the technical forums where it's seems that less of this occurs. Maybe the solution isn't to restrict more, but make a anonymous shot out where you can just say "I hate team 666" (<- not a real team) it could be a moderated one to keep people from being really vulgar or specific, so they couldn't say "Team 666's driver is a stupid #@&$ and %#@$ moron." However, I may just be nuts and this would make the problem worse,
I don't know.
The worst thing I have ever heard was a troll telling a friend of mine on another page who had previously tried to kill herself before that "Next time you try to kill yourself use a gun. It'll make it more memorable." I reproted them and got them banned.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Luke, I don't think a forum on CD where people can post whatever bile they want to spew would really futher the forum's purpose as a place for teams to spread FIRST's message, help other teams, etc. There isn't anything positive that could come out of a forum like that, save for the person spewing the bile. We'd be better off suggesting to them that they type up their rants in notepad, print them out, and rip them to tiny shreds to work out their obvious anger.

At any rate, I don't know that there are many good technical solutions to anonymous posting. Forcing someone to identify with a team will just make people pick teams at random. And it's not like you can make people send Brandon a photo id so they can get an account. Worse, any sort of lengthy verification process we make people go through will just make it tougher on people coming here cause they need help quickly. Banning and blocking will just force the posters to start multiple new accounts, though it might give them a time out to think about what they've said. About the best solution I can think of would be something akin to AOL's warning system where one user can warn another and restrict the rate they can post at. This has problems as well, but any purely techincal solution is going to have lots of problems.

I think we just have to deal with the fact that anonymity happens on the internet, and trolls are a fact of life. And make it abundantly clear to said trolls that they really aren't FIRST or CD material if they can think such things about their fellow teams.

[nehalita]

Forcing someone to identify with a team will just make people pick teams at random. And it's not like you can make people send Brandon a photo id so they can get an account. Worse, any sort of lengthy verification process we make people go through will just make it tougher on people coming here cause they need help quickly.
He has a point...
bout the best solution I can think of would be something akin to AOL's warning system where one user can warn another and restrict the rate they can post at.
I like the warning system idea but it kind of mirrors the point of the rep system. Also, that privelege can be misused also.
This has problems as well, but any purely techincal solution is going to have lots of problems.
well said.

[sw293]

The worst thing I have ever heard was a troll telling a friend of mine on another page who had previously tried to kill herself before that "Next time you try to kill yourself use a gun. It'll make it more memorable." I reproted them and got them banned.

That's just sick.

In any case, I see trolling as a cost of having an open forum. I would venture a guess that trolls rear their heads occasionally in almost every online community, and there's no reason why a FIRST robotics forum should be any different in that respect. The rep points system generally prevents trolls from having a significant impact on the perception of the teams or individuals being trolled. Most of what is written here is productive.

[Koko Ed]

That's just sick.

In any case, I see trolling as a cost of having an open forum. I would venture a guess that trolls rear their heads occasionally in almost every online community, and there's no reason why a FIRST robotics forum should be any different in that respect. The rep points system generally prevents trolls from having a significant impact on the perception of the teams or individuals being trolled. Most of what is written here is productive.
Chiefdelphi is an oasis in the harsh desert of the internet.
The internet is the last "wild frontier" and a pretty mean place to be. You just have to make the choice of how you wish to conduct yourself and how you want to take things really. As it has been said:No one can really make you feel inferior without your consent.

[coastertux]

I agree with all of you. Every forum has some trolls, but the admins and users here at ChiefDelphi do a great job banning them/deleting posts when the trolls come around. If you find a post offensive, use the report feature and the admins will take care of it!

[Cody Carey]

The worst thing I have ever heard was a troll telling a friend of mine on another page who had previously tried to kill herself before that "Next time you try to kill yourself use a gun. It'll make it more memorable." I reproted them and got them banned.

That is absolutely horrible. I wish that more could be done than just banning him from the website... Something like a beating with a bamboo cane.

More on the topic, however... What is considered a troll?
Upon seeing the subject of this thread, I automatically went to the members section and sorted them be rep, I then went to the end of the list. The person's name was Amateurrobotguy. I read all 86 of his post summaries, and didn't see anything too trollish. If there was something in an unabridged post of his, please point it out to me. I also noticed that there were a ton of people with red bars who, when I read their posts, had said nothing to offend anyone openly.
I guess what i am asking is:
When you see red rep bars do you automatically think "he's a troll"?

[Jay H 237]

Those Silencenomore posts were appalling, but after a while they became darkly funny. I'm amazed anybody would say that sort of stuff in a public forum. Maybe the solution isn't to restrict more, but make a anonymous shot out where you can just say "I hate team 666" (<- not a real team) it could be a moderated one to keep people from being really vulgar or specific, so they couldn't say "Team 666's driver is a stupid #@&$ and %#@$ moron." However, I may just be nuts and this would make the problem worse,
I don't know.

I remember when SilenceNoMore joined and started causing a ruckus around here. SNM was an outspoken alter ego of another user on here and after several people figured out who it was they quit posting under the SNM user name and went back to thier older one with a team designation.

This isn't always the case and you will get people registering here just to cause problems whether they're on a team or not. The only way in reality to handle them is to deal with them as they happen. Banning someone outright because they don't have a current or past team could be hurtful to this forum. As an example, SkywayWheels is a username on here and they are you guessed it.........Skyway Wheels, a supporter and KOP supplier to FIRST. They are not, and have never been, on any team. They come on here to listen to us and help us when needed. If being on a team or being an alumini was a requirement then they wouldn't belong here. There are others similar to Skyway that are on here and contribute to this forum.

Now for my personal opinion. Having a forum solely for bashing other teams goes against what FIRST is about and this forum. I can see this forum becoming a major headache for the Mods. Remember that each Mod is an individual and when you get something that is borderline one Mod may allow it or not edit it as much as another. While you may think a whole team is bad that isn't generally the case. Usually it's one or two members that cause problems. They can be dealt with on a "as needed basis". Same thing I've unfortunately had to do as a mentor at times.

Bashing a whole team is excessive, not neccesary and will only open another can of worms. Second of all, having guests and sponsors seeing this on a open forum isn't good PR let alone GP.

[KenWittlief]

about 2,000 years ago it was written that a persons true character is revealed when they are tested by fire.

When something bad happens to you, or you go through a difficult ordeal, then the way that YOU respond reveals your true nature. Its easy to be nice when everything is going your way. When trouble comes, then we get to see whats on the inside.

The ironic part about this, the thing that pushed you over the edge may have been real, or it may have been a misunderstanding on your part. But when you blow up and lose your cool infront of others, that is 100% the real you.

The original misunderstanding will get cleared up, but the way other people see you will be altered forever.

[lukevanoort]

That is absolutely horrible. I wish that more could be done than just banning him from the website... Something like a beating with a bamboo kane.

More on the topic, however... What is considered a troll?
Upon seeing the subject of this thread, I automatically went to the members section and sorted them be rep, I then went to the end of the list. The person's name was Amateurrobotguy. I read all 86 of his post summaries, and didn't see anything too trollish. If there was something in an unabridged post of his, please point it out to me. I also noticed that there were a ton of people with red bars who, when I read their posts, had said nothing to offend anyone openly.
I guess what i am asking is:
When you see red rep bars do you automatically think "he's a troll"?
I did the same thing within the first few weeks after I joined and was quite puzzled too. As to the bashing forum, you guys have good points, that's a bad idea. Here's another one (not a bad one, hopefully, but another idea) how about venting in another manner? With a computer. I don't know how many of you used the Dr S BATESO utility that came with SoundBlaster about ten years ago, but it said a few one line responses, and was very useful for venting anger. I know there are several Java applets that do this floating around, you could just get on it and start venting your anger, without troubling anybody. And, since many bad decisions are made under pressure, in the heat of the moment, this could help. I relative of mine used to teach in a prison and, according to her, most of the murderers were normal people who happened to get drunk, or really really angry and a gun was nearby. On CD that gun is the "New Thread" or "Post Reply" buttons. Since we can't remove the gun, giving a person a method to let off that steam makes them less likely to use it in a bad manner.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Allow me to be very optimistic.

I believe that for every individual on this forum that posts a nasty comment about another team or starts a nasty thread, there is a huge crowd of good, good people who disapprove of that. Just look at this thread for evidence.

These "nasty posters" teach by bad example. Many people I've introduced to Chief see these posters and realize that they are an example of what not to do, of how to not behave. They will always be here, but I believe Chief Delphi users will moderate them. On this forum there are many young posters, still high schoolers, who already try to help moderate bad behavior.

Teach by example. Bring friends who will respect the rules, the mission, the idea of what CD is. There will always be trolls, but the good people will stick around more than the trolls will.

[Katie Reynolds]

Upon seeing the subject of this thread, I automatically went to the members section and sorted them be rep, I then went to the end of the list. The person's name was Amateurrobotguy. I read all 86 of his post summaries, and didn't see anything too trollish. If there was something in an unabridged post of his, please point it out to me. I also noticed that there were a ton of people with red bars who, when I read their posts, had said nothing to offend anyone openly. Sometimes, a user will post a thread that is way off-topic, offensive, or just not allowed. If that thread is deleted (and in the case of Amateurrobotguy, they were) it will no longer show up on post list you look at on their profile. Also, sometimes people will give negative rep for offensive things in signitures (like one current sig that says, "Admit it; we all want to sabatoge the other teams' robots.") and since we can't see old sigs, there might have been something there, too.

[Billfred]

It was once said by Ricky Quinones that "that Martus character always has a way to take care of them."

If you see a post that is Just Plain Wrong, report it. Fire off a red dot, if you think it's deserving. Just don't let those with less-than-ideal goals scare you off--a loss of veteran knowledge, particularly on a site like this, would be devastating. (We have to have the old-timers around, after all--those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. And I don't mean HIST 101, either.)

[114Klutz]

I'll take the more pessimistic side of this.

The internet is a microcosm of the world. Just like the real world - the anonymity provided by the internet can often be either used or abused.

In the real world - anonymity has often allowed people to post legimate grumbles without the threat of prosecution. (Letter of Junius, or Candide), yet it also provides an open method for libel and slander.

However, unlike the real world, ChiefDelphi doesn't exactly prosecute it's users. At most, a thread is deleted, and negative rep points are given. Commissars don't exactly barge in, the poster to never be seen again.

ChiefDelphi has always maintained an friendly and open atmosphere - and there is no need for anonymity here. If posters were forced to associate with a team(who's team captain or other such contact would vouch), then the number of flamebait posts and trolls would decrease.

[meaubry]

We (Chief Delphi leaders) try and review how things went and where improvements could be made in managing this website on a regular basis.
We rely on Brandon to guide us on the technical related stuff, and Mike M and I try to make sure the guidelines, rules, underlying message, and mission still make sense.

Past problems, are discussed along with potential solutions.

Posting annon (without being associated with a team#) has been discussed numerous times over the years.

Many students that graduate and move on to college and beyond, are still interested in communicating with the rest of the FIRST community - yet don't really feel that they should be identified with their past team(s).

We respect that and believe the value and insight that these mentors can bring to this community, along with parents, teachers, and coaches no longer associated with a team, is well worth the risk of not requiring a team# association.

We have discussed using a non-FIRST team # to represent this growing faction in the FIRST community - we will need to review this again to see if it is time to ask that group to modify their team# to something like "FIRST Supporter" or "CD community member", to distinguish between themselves from those that want to be viewed as having association with "No Team".

I hope this helps everyone understand better that we DO want the best for this website community and we welcome suggestions that help us manage it for the betterment of FIRST.

We also hope this ugly trend diminshes and goes away - keep up the good work moderators.

Mike Aubry
Engineering Team Leader

[Bill Moore]

More on the topic, however... What is considered a troll?

I guess what i am asking is:
When you see red rep bars do you automatically think "he's a troll"?
I've always considered a troll to be a "non-contributing member" of the community. There are many folks on CD who read, but never post, to these boards. I've never found that to be a problem. I've even been contacted by a "temporary troll", who requested a computer card I offered to Sanddrag a while back. (I sent the card along, because I had no use for it, but it was apparent he picked up the offer by using Google to search for that specific card. He obviously had no team or interest in FIRST.) Once again, not a real problem.

It's the destructive identities, that are usually anonymous, that really attack what this community represents. I do not consider these folks as trolls, but as antagonistic opportunists. They do not troll the boards silently, but they post quite vividly items that are outside the scope of the forum -- FIRST and robotics. The identities are not always anonymous anymore though, some are indeed openly affiliated with teams. It may be that the team mentors do not read CD, or that they ignore the content of offensive postings from their teams.

I have noticed, that in recent years, volatile threads tend to become IM-like, in that accusations, suggestions, and counter-accusations are made in such a rapid-fire mode that it is highly apparent that the initiator has no interest in understanding the situation, just a desire to vent. They barely allow themselves time to read a post, much less even think about it, before they are typing in a response that doesn't add anything but merely reiterates their initial posting. There is no desire for discussion, just a platform to insult and attack another team. Usually it happens so quickly that the thread is closed before the majority of the community has an opportunity to even read it.

Today, there was a thread posted for 1 hour and 20 minutes before it was closed with the 28th post. If you missed it (because you were sleeping), the thread began at about 1:00 AM local time, and was closed just after 2:15 AM. I invite you to read through it, and think about a team who should be enjoying and celebrating a regional victory, instead having to deal with the attacks and criticism that for some reason they are "unworthy". This seems to have become a more common thread on CD during the past few years. While the success of teams are celebrated and cheered at the venues, there are a few individuals who choose to tarnish teams and their successes here on CD afterwards.

It is sad when the robots do not perform as we designed them. It is sadder still, when they perform well, but they are not victorious. However, it is most saddening when they win at a competition, and competitors are unwilling to acknowledge the teamwork and good fortune of the alliance.

To Team #4 and all FIRST teams:
Celebrate your teams success, and salute the success of your competitors!

[Madison]

As FIRST continues to grow, so does the variety and diversity of the people using these forums. It isn't unreasonable to expect that the number of problematic posters will increase with the whole membership. I don't think we're seeing a trend, but rather a consequence of growth.

That said, I'd like to discourage the continued discussion of individual users who may have acted in bad taste. That is, in some ways, no better than much of the behavior you're concerned about in the first place.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

[Somewhat OFFTOPIC]
I find it somewhat amusing as I look through the offtopic discussion and see multiple spam topics littering the page. I never have the privilege of reporting or even viewing any of these topics as they are always taken care of quickly. Now... the point I'm trying to make here is that the moderators on this forum do an extraordinary job. I have never seen a forum better moderated than this one. Bad threads are closed in a timely manner. But the ones that are insightful, yet accusations are made in, are left open for various amounts of time to allow us to learn from them and opinions can be thrown around.

-------------------

I don't mind these "trolls" as long as they provide substantial evidence backing their claims. The only thing I ask is that the complaining team member provide their team name and number.

My $0.02.

I'm glad Koko Ed brought this topic up.

[JoeXIII'007]

SNM is a very disturbing member indeed if you just take a quick look at his 32 posts. But, look through the dirt, dust off his posts, and you may come to understand as I have that he just couldn't put his very credible opinion out there in a reasonable way. Either because of a lack of education, knowledge, or just lack of ambition to put real thought into it.

In short, SNM is an unfortunate case of how a lack of education and/or lack of thought can make your outward appearance look miserable.

On that note, politics should be able to continue in a moderated fashion on CD.

Also, it should be told to all incoming users, unknown or identified, that it is recommended to post with thought, general intelligence, and overall care, NOT with sudden outbursts of rebellion or propaganda.

Users of this forum should at least have knowledge of all three sides of any issue: the good, the bad, and the unknown. This includes FIRST. The CD forum should be exactly that, a forum. Not a group of people under a trance who just talk about how great FIRST is, etc. etc. In fact, people critical of FIRST on these forums, or at the very least constructively critical, give us, and FIRST administrators, the other side that we should wisely consider. To sum up, be open, not just what you think to be open, but really open minded. Find those closed doors in your heads and unlock them. It will really help.

Finally, remember that even though we all put a lot of time and effort into our endeavors with FIRST, it is incredibly important to realize that there are certainly no garuntees in how everything will turn out. In any case, not everyone is going to be happy, not everyone will be supportive. Work at your own reputational and emotional risk.

To answer Koko's question on whether or not there is a solution, it's rather simple. Critical people like SNM, though very appaling, have thoughts and ideas that we can all take a moment to consider and act upon. Don't call members like them trolls either. They're human beings just like the rest of us, and deserve an equal amount of respect, for we all have errors, and challenges to overcome. If we work together, and take the ciriticism like food, and eat it, FIRST will grow in a much more respectable way, and with less conspiracy. It will be a solid, strong, and most importantly honest organization that has no 'I' in it's framework. CD will grow along with FIRST in this sense.

I hope I wasn't too confusing.

-Joe

PS: Censorship, as demonstrated in Ray Bradbury's Farenheit 451, just doesn't work.

[Nuttyman54]

[Slightly Offtopic] One thing that's always bugged me is the Rep system. I've had a great experience with it, but not everyone has. I've seen a number of cases where someone has posted on a sensitive topic and just didn't word it delicately enough. 100 negative reps later, they come back and attempt to fix it. However, 100 negative reps are very upsetting, and often ends up angering the user more. I make two propositions:

1) Allow a maximum of 5 or 10 negative reps PER POST. This will get the point across well enough, but ensures that it is not too damaging. It also means that "instigators" (those who make multiple offending posts) can still be penalized heavily, hopefully notifying them that their conduct is unacceptable. Also, if someone receives the maximum negative reps for a post, they should be notified similar Billfred's suggestion in this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40789&highlight=rep+system)


2) If someone has recieved more than a specified number (like 30 or 40) negative reps in the past 24 hours, their account is temporarily suspended (eg. for the next 24 hours). This makes it so that they have time to "cool off", and could possibly mitigate some of the "hot" threads we see. Multiple temporary bans could be grounds for a longer term ban and/or account deletion. Because of the way the current rep system works, it should be fairly hard to abuse this (it would require a lot of offended peple to cause a temporary ban).

Please note that these suggestions have not been fully thought through, and probably have many problems. They may have already been suggested in one way or another. They're just some ideas for preventing some problems that i've seen lately. [/Slightly Offtopic]

[KenWittlief]

the term 'troll' is a spin-off of a method of fishing. You pull a piece of bait on a hook behind a slow moving boat, trying to get a fish to bite: Trolling.

Trolling on a website is throwing out some comment that you know will start an argument or flame war. The troll doesn't really care anything about the thing being discussed, he just wants to torque someones nose and see if any fish will go after his bait.

[JaneYoung]

Hello. Apologies if this runs long.
I am new to the CD forums and committed to joining a few days because of all of you. I have read the forums as a guest for over a year.I read this thread this morning before I left for errands and twirled it around along with the thread response of Tetraman in 'Your Best FIRST Experience'. 174 and 1230 had a wonderful time together, experiencing that magical kaleidescopic moment when everything centers and life is good. So I had the two threads mixing and mingling together.

My thoughts agree with Eugenia. The moderators are good, the red reps are good, constant vigilance is good but the beauty and the magic is you. We all mentor the teams: team mates, teachers, coaches, mentors, engineers, parents, sponsors, regional directors - the list goes on. We know the tensions in the shop and during competitions. F.I.R.S.T. has a natural rhythm: build, gearing up for competition, gearing down from competition, up, down, then nationals. Emotions are tucked in with the tools/parts in the carts that go back and forth through travel. And you do here what you naturally do in the shop and at the competitions. You mentor. New members and sponsors read past the initial flame and into the wealth of wisdom and humor that is written on the pages - counseling, disciplining, guiding. Never doubt that CD still does what it hopes to do - maybe a little differently than a few years ago and on a more complex scale, but it still works. Because of you. I read the new posts and the portal looking for names. I know that I will soon be laughing or learning, gaining wisdom and insight, and will have a good quote for the day. Because of you.
Jane Young :)

[JoeXIII'007]

the term 'troll' is a spin-off of a method of fishing. You pull a piece of bait on a hook behind a slow moving boat, trying to get a fish to bite: Trolling.

Trolling on a website is throwing out some comment that you know will start an argument or flame war. The troll doesn't really care anything about the thing being discussed, he just wants to torque someones nose and see if any fish will go after his bait.

Ahhh.. i was thinking the name was derived from those other creatures... oh well.

[colin340]

the really sick thing is that he used the word son like he or she is an older person like a mentor or teacher or may be a veteran - the following is not colin340 but this guy Silencenomore

(No son, destablizing the American economy by attempting to descreate our money supply with Dean Kamen's subversive messages is not fun. Its treason. :mad)

[Jaine Perotti]

KokoEd, I think you brought up a very good topic. I also think that many of the people here have made excellent responses and there has been alot of good thought surrounding this issue.

I was one of the people who was involved in the thread that took place last night/morning (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=477039), which I believe is what prompted the creation of this one. If you read my posts, you will see that OVER AND OVER again I tried to hammer home the message that being constructive and respectful is the BEST and ONLY way to bring forth your problems to this community, and at the same time expect a good response which may produce a solution to the problem.

I think people occasionally lose sight of the fact that these forums exist SOLELY to enhance the ability of FIRSTers to communicate with each other.
Why is it that we want to communicate with each other?

We communicate so that we can collectively strengthen each other, in order to collectively strengthen FIRST. This means that we help each other solve the problems which prevent us from doing our job - namely, to inspire and reach as many people as we can to promote the goals of FIRST.

Notice that I emphasized the words "solve the problems." When people forget that this is our true aim, they also forget that ChiefDelphi is not the place to post hateful, emotionally driven libel. Communicating hateful messages has never helped anyone to right grievances. While I believe it is perfectly acceptable to be privately disappointed, it is never ok to use this as an excuse to VENT your anger in this community. Simply put, ChiefDelphi does not exist to listen to people whine about things which they can not change (such as events that have taken place in the PAST). We do, however, exist so that we can impact the future and come up with constructive solutions to REAL problems.

Also notice how I emphasized the word "real". People need to realize that it is impossible to come up with a solution to the problem if the facts surrounding it are merely speculative, or don't exist at all. Last night, a personal attack against several teams was disguised as a complaint about the lack of "good" scouting. Teams were accused of bribery and theft, and were told that they "did not deserve" to win.

There were two main problems that made this post impossible to respond to with a constructive solution. First of all, there was NO evidence that any teams participated in "bribery", "theft", or "glory-stealing". Secondly, the post was a personal gripe about a past event. It is impossible for any of us here on CD to go back in time to change the outcome of an event. This issue was inappropriate to bring up because 1) it was based on speculation, and 2) we could not have offered any means of correcting it.

So, ChiefDelphi, we have a problem. It seems that the majority of us feel that there are too many posts of the non-constructive type. Therefore, I ask you this question (which many of you offered potential solutions to in this thread):

How do we make ChiefDelphi a more constructive place?

-- Jaine

[bbguy5]

It really is a sad day in FIRST when we have to have these conversations.

I read that other post and was appauled.

Mentioning bribes and teams not getting picked because of certain factors. I'll say this: Remember it takes good defense to make a strong offense.

As for being affiliated with a team when registering, then that would kind of stink. I have no affiliation other then being a former member of 111 and being a volunteer at the MWR and WR, or until next year when i rejoin the team.

Can't we delete these posts instead of allowing them to remain to be seen on such a great resource that CD is.

[Nuttyman54]

Can't we delete these posts instead of allowing them to remain to be seen on such a great resource that CD is.

I think they should remain up for the time being (though closed) solely because some of the context for this thread would disappear. The discussion in question is absolutely sickening, but it is a case in point of what is absolutely unacceptable. I was not on the forums when SNM was, but evidently these are re-occuring events, and people need to be able to look at what's happening.

On that note, could someone PM me about what SilenceNoMore was? from what I understand it was a poster, but it sounds pretty severe.

[Jak DiGriz]

I am reading about censoring negative posts and in one post in this forum I saw one who said biased posts were not appreciated.

Is the purpose for these forums to only talk about positive things? I'm not a big fan of censorship myself, but I'm also not familiar with ChiefDelphi's mission statement. Please fill me in.

-JD

[Madison]

On that note, could someone PM me about what SilenceNoMore was? from what I understand it was a poster, but it sounds pretty severe.

It's really not worth discussing. In fact, as in other situations, these posters crave attention and little else. When they no longer receive our attention, they go away.

[David Brinza]

Posts that question the interpretation or rationale for the rules are certainly fair game for CD. The "powers that be" at FIRST often analyze and accept the criticisms and subsequently change the rules. This constructive criticism helps FIRST improve at many levels.

Posts that attack the integrity of individuals or teams are "out-of-bounds" as far as GP is concerned. Even if the person writing the post believes there is substantial evidence to support their view, this is something that should be handled discretely.

As a member of the team that was a target of the post that claimed that bribery was involved in the alliance selection process in the SoCal regional, I can tell you that reading that post was a painful experience. I'm glad that the post was closed, because it would have stayed at the top of the recent activity list for some time to come. I appreciate the supportive replies from Bill Gold, EricH and several others who recognized this case of "sour grapes" for what it was - bunk. I sent a PM to Cory thanking him for closing the post and provided a response to be aired at a later date.

CD should remain an open forum where positive and negative attributes are freely discussed in the FIRST community. The FIRST community is sophisticated enough to filter the garbage and focus on improving the FIRST experience for everyone. The CD moderators should do as was done in the case of last night's thread: close it down until cooler heads can prevail.

[the_short1]

Indeed it is ugly, I myself have been victimized once, but luckily a mod deleted his post right away.

Random people that go to a venue, or a field crew etc, might register without having any affiliation with a team, so its kind of hard to enforce. Its too easy to register for a forum without a real email due to numerous free services like mailinator.com, and limiting one account per IP does not work, because many students access CD from school.... so what else can be done?

I would like to promote free speech, as that is what my country (Canada) strives for, and if you have something to say, you do have the right to say it (even if its not positive), although IMO i think you should try to post criticism in a nicer/more contructive way. Therefore i dont mind if you have something bad to say, you have the right to post something negative, but you better do it with your REAL account, instead of being a coward and hidding your true self!

[Koko Ed]

In light of last weekends drama this thread seems so ironic now.