Teams missing matches, something must be done

[sanddrag]

This year's game is the most well designed so far. Yet I believe there is still one fatal flaw. Why should those who have their robots in working order and on th field for a match be penalized by those who don't? In nearly every one of the first seven qualifying matches in SoCal there was at least one robot missing from the field (at one point, I heard there were 4 robots missing from the field). We had to play a 3vs2 match on Friday and a 3vs1 match on Saturday ("we" being on the deficient alliance both times). Why should we be scoring points for a team who doesn't have the decency to make their match? Why should we have to pick up their slack? We have trouble, we break things, we have repairs to do, but we care about our matches, we care about our partners, and we do not let them down. Before our matches, I've gone to our partners and literally said, "look, if you want me to jump in there and fix this for you I'd be more than happy to. We need this robot on the field, pronto." But they all see no sense of urgency and think it is no big deal if they miss a match because somebody else will play it for them.


I say that FIRST should do one of three things if a robot is not present on the field.

1. Bring in an alternate, somebody, anybody, who is ready to go at the time. They will be doing it for practice, publicity, and because of GP. They will get no points out of it. The no-show team will still be awarded points, and they should take the alternate out to dinner (the part about dinner would be optional but strongly recommended).
2. Give the no-show team a DQ (this would be an easy incentive to get your but/bot out on the field.)
3. Keep a kitbot on hand for that team to use when they cannot field their own. (teams may abuse this).

My vote goes for #1, but any of these options would be better than the present nothing.

We pay good money to not just field a robot, but to field a robot with two more beside it. Nobody can win this game alone. Give every alliance the fair chance to win that they deserve. How can anybody feel good winning or losing a match 3 on 2 or 3 on 1?

I say 6 robots on the field or no match is to be played. Who's with me?

[Billfred]

From the manual:

A team is declared a no-show, and will be disqualified, if no member of the team is in the alliance station at
the start of the match. Teams that do not show up for a scheduled qualification match will receive zero (0)
Qualifying Points (QP’s) and zero (0) Ranking Points.

I was inspecting a team on Friday morning when they were supposed to be out for a match. They sent a human player to at least avoid the DQ.

Now, you bring up an interesting idea with the surrogates (which are also provided for in the manual). With the short turn-around required in this modern era of FIRST, it might be a little too tight for a team to get in there at the drop of a hat. But if there were an easy way to get a team on a minute's notice, I'd be open to such an idea. (Good luck doing that in Atlanta.)

[sanddrag]

I know the rule has provisions for when there is no one in the alliance station, but a driver does the alliance no good without a robot. The rules need to at the least be adjusted to give a DQ for no robot on the field.

[Dillon Compton]

I disagree;

Alliance selection is RANDOM; all teams are in the same situation. Apparently you had bad luck, but, if your robot is in working order, why not delegate people to go verify and aid your alliance members in getting their robots drivable, at least; complaining on Chief Delphi will only help so much.

We all payed our hefty registration fees, and we all want the opportunity to play our matches; believe me, it sucks MUCH worse to be the team that missed a match then to be the team who is missing an alliance member.

This is another thread about the competitive aspect of FIRST; we've been seeing alot of these lately. I think a problem with FIRST is that it is all to easy to get caught up in the competion; we have been programmed with a win to drive from a very young age, and in moments of stress, dissapointment, and weakness we all slip- to use a hackneyed term, "Just remember that it does not matter whether you win or lose, but how you play the game".

Perhaps this unfortunate alliance structure created some frusturation; you've raised this point in several threads now, so I can see that you must be upset- understandable, you guys had a great robot, and perhaps ranked worse due to these matches. That being said, does it really matter if you win? This whole experience, the entirety of what FIRST represents and promotes, is about inspiring individuals to make something more of themselves and creating a better world; when you consider this, our individual victories seem meaningless. People talk about gracious professionalism alot, and I think it has evolved beyond its' original meaning; no longer does this simply apply to graciously competiting, and being good sports. Gracious Professionalism means coming off the field after playing in a 3 v 1 match, finding the teams that screwed you by not showing up, and making sure that they can get into the next match; usually these teams are the rookies, the underfunded, and those without engineers or other professional help- so help them.

Come on everyone- let us forget our differences, our petty squabbles, and our losses and wins- let us focus on what really matters. Remember what we are here to accomplish- be we students or mentors, engineers or parents- we are here to be inspired or inspire, to teach, to support, to affect a change in ourselves, our peers, and the world; someones future will be affected by all that we do- whether we cure aids, invent a 100% "clean" energy source, or simply excite someone about something (be it robotics, art, science, or simply life ).

I keep saying this- we can do this, so what are we waiting for?

-Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[Matt Attallah]

IMHO - teams should volunteer to be "place setter's but with that team getting a "0" score.

Say team 9999 is suppose to be out there - but 9998 takes their place - 9998 will get NO points but 9999 will get "0" points - that way the teams that are most robust can show off their skills and teams that need help can get the help - and not strand other teams in the dirt!!

[James Dowd]

Maybe FIRST should consider using the kitbot idea previously mentioned.

I was part of the OCCRA Competition in Suburban Detroit while in high school, and they used a "placebo" in some capacity. (I don't remember the exact provisions for its use).

During my year in OCCRA the bot consisted of a drivetrain with a toilet plunger, so it did nothing but play effective defense. Perhaps FIRST could use something of this sort to fill in. I mean a drivetrain that can play defense is better than nothing and will be more entertaining than the alternative.

[Tim Delles]

I see a few things in this thread. A few points that i like are:

Something does need to be done about robots not making it to the field.
Why should something be done?
Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?

First - Something does need to be done about robots not making it to the field.
Yes, something really does need to happen about this. Wether or not it will is another thing. But ideas such as having the kitbot there and even other robots ready to jump in are both great ideas and should be looked into.

Second - Why should something be done?
It should be done because the matches may be random, but if a team is paired with the same team that can't make matches because of one reason or another the team(s) that does/do make the field should not be penalized more than once. In all reality they shouldn't be penalized at all.
1.) Because it then becomes an uneven playing field. And we all know that FIRST is about even playing fields no matter what.
2.) It takes any competitiveness a team has away because 2 robots can't really take on 3.

Third - Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?
Very much so it is. You want to be able to contend against other people so that they can really see how thier robot compairs to others. Once again if it wasn't so competitive would high school kids be so enthusiastic and driven by the program?

just my 2 cents.

Tim

[Gdeaver]

It's a physical game. Bots are going to break. That's the way the game plays this year.

[Rick TYler]

Third - Is it gracious professional to be so competitive?


Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.

[Tim Delles]

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor, the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.


How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way :)

[bbguy5]

Well at smaller regionals, you dont have time in between matches to lets say, fix your robot if it breaks. Thats probably part of the reason teams are missing matches. I'm sure it will be better at nats.

[sanddrag]

Here's my problem that is the underlying issue of this situation and others. While it is true the main purpose of FIRST is to improve our futures and the future of the world, the main thing that helps us do that are the robots. Without the robots, none of us would be here. They are the attracting force that brings us all together. This is a robot building competition. If it weren't, they wouldn't give awards and trophies for it.

We can put together the kit of parts robot and become perfect gracious professionalists without spending a dime. We can drive that robot at school, and save $6000 and not enter a competition, and just go to watch other teams compete, and still be proud of ourselves, and graduate our high school seniors as better citizens than they once were. We can spark a flame in a child's eye with a popsicle stick bridge building competition. I'd bet we could just read "Code Name Ginger" and become better people.

But the truth is we don't. We don't spend months fundraising to just become better people. We don't leave our families behind to become better people. We don't stay awake into the early hours of the morning to become better people. We don't sacrifice our entire lives to not care about the outcome at the regional. We don't sacrifice our personal health to become better people. We do it for the robots; we do it to win. This is a competition, not an exhibition. In a competition, the goal is to win. If you are not trying to win, you are not competing.

We can become better people without all that. But this is a competition. We play our hardest match every match. We put dollars and hours into doing everything humanly possible to win. Why? Because winning is inspirational. Working hard to pursue the goal of winning is inspirational.

We play to win and I'm not afraid to say so. We become better people in the process. This is about passion. Unfortunately, among many teams, it seems to be dwindling.

[sure_smile]

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way :)

every day :D as an extremely enthusiastic 16-year-old co-captain who loves to learn about other robots and help other teams, the feeling of wanting to be the "girlfriend" of the robot who graciously and professionally wins the match is one that i don't think will ever fade

[gobeavs]

Isn't the FIRST experience about overcoming adversity? One of the coolest moments of our Portland regional experience was our alliance being a robot down and still winning the match. Life isn't always fair. Being responsible and passionate we will probably have to pick up others' slack often. Though I understand your frustration.

[OZ_341]

This has always been a part of the FIRST experience.

We expect that this will happen and send out people to check-in with upcoming partners to see if they need help getting ready for the match. (Even if they are veterans with a machine that is better than ours) Sometimes they might need a kit part that you have as a spare or a tool to help make a repair.

In the past we have also sent programmers to all of our Rookie partners to ensure that they have a working autonomous mode. Communicate with your partners often before the match and you will have fewer surprises.

But even with this approach you will be the victim on occasion. Its just another part of the challenge. (IMHO)

Best of luck with the remainder of the regular season.

[Nuttyman54]

One thing I will never forget this year is Team 114 comming over to us before our match with them and asking how it was going. It was not going well. The entire left side of our drivetrain was not working (sprocket problems). They were on the floor with us looking at the problem. About 5 minutes before the match we told them we could attempt a quick fix to get it back out, but we couldn't guarantee it would survive the match. Their response: Skip the match if you have to, but fix it right the first time.

I agree with others in this thread that having a backup robot/ kitbot (akin to the strechers one year). I also agree that it is not fair to the alliance partners. But you CANNOT assume or expect everyone to have a working robot. They may have gotten slammed in the last match and have to unbend their frame. They may have gotten some magic smoke out of their processor. Whatever the reason, things break, and it tends to be at the worst possible time, and you can't necessarily hold the team responsible.

[laurenlacy]

How true that is. I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way :)
as a female i can say for sure YES

[billbo911]

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.
Rick, If I didn't know better I would say you had plagiarized my thoughts completely, word for word, nothing changed. Well, except I am 4 years your junior. ;)

[Taylor]

I think that as a team, it is your duty to have the robot on the field at all times when it is supposed to be (save the practice day on Thursday). Perhaps the most inspirational moment for me came at this year's BMR when 1319 got half their robot knocked off during autonomous mode. Understandably upset, the team picked up their remains and headed back to the pits. About twenty minutes later, I saw the 1319 bot on the field again. Well, half of it anyway. The team put the drivebase (maybe 2 feet tall) out there and played defense - pushed others around, got on the ramp at the end. Later that afternoon, the complete robot was back on the field, playing to its original capacity.
Long story short, 1319's alliance is headed to Atlanta.
If they had not competed in all rounds, I'm sure their ranking would have been different, they probably would not have been picked where they were, and would not have become champions.
Even if your robot is completely nonfunctional, it still can play a role. Perhaps another team can push it in front of a corner goal to play D. Perhaps it can block a ramp. Being there, getting in the way, mere presence not only gains points, but it increases visibility, awareness, and (in my case) respect.

[mtaman02]

This is a competition, not an exhibition. In a competition, the goal is to win. If you are not trying to win, you are not competing.

Sandman FIRST was and will never about "Winning". The Reason FIRST has exsisted over the many years is b/c teams have been giving a task to complete in six weeks - whether they are funded or under funded. We all know and have experienced the Six Weeks of what I like to call (excuse my french) Hell. Six Weeks is a very short time to build a masterpiece have it tested and shipped. Whether you have a whole bunch of materials & money or not. Many Teams at the few regionals unpacked their robots into 2000 pieces and have close to 1 Day to build it and have it inspected. When friday comes around they may or may not have that rolling chassis (as my teacher calls it). Its the job of how ever many teams in that particular regional to help this one team get their robot rolling so that it can be at least be defensive. Espicially if you are their alliance partner. Anyone who settles on the belief that they are not obligated to help another troubled team is wrong. If you don't have all the required parts that they may need no problem - remember every little bit helps. I can understand that having one or two less teams on the alliance is unfair but if you at least try to help them out maybe they'll have a better chance of being an effective alliance partner. FIRST has and will always be about Team Work. Without Team work your nothing, Everywhere you go Team Work is applied in everything.

In 2003 I and a couple other alumni went to the NYC Regional w/ our team old team (522) there were many teams w/ either incomplete robots or completely non-functioning robots. Since 522's robot was working and needed very lil maintenance, the alumni and the many who helped build the robot set off into the pits and helped just about every team that needed help whether it was assembling the robot correctly or just helping w/ the necessary adjustments. The teams that we had helped seeded better then they would have just by having a rolling chassis and being able to be out on the field. This had been that teams goal since their inseption and continues to that day and that was to help any and every team that needed it. To me thats Team Work and Gracious Professionalism.

To me that story may or may not apply to this specific thread by does have some basis to whats being discussed. As I said before Its never about winning, Its about Team Work in achieving the task set forth, Its about Being Gracious and Professional to all the surrounding teams, Its about HAVING FUN.
Its what FIRST's all about.


Thats my $2.00 worth.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Sanddrag,
It is unfortunate for teams not to make it to a match but sometimes it is just going to happen. Someone on every team should be assigned to check up on all robots in your next match(es). I don't know about you, but we don't want to win because the other team didn't show up. We will play and if we win, so be it, but we don't have to like it. And if I help an alliance opponent, you better bet I want them to come out and play their best against me. It is why we showed up in the first place.

[MikeDubreuil]

I thought this was an interesting fact from the Boston Regional from the head referee.
"Even with 14 out of the 44 teams at the Boston regional being rookies not one robot missed a match."

[robochick1319]

I know from experience that making it to matches is not an easy task. In Purdue the matches were literally back to back!! We got back from a match and we were already on our third call for the next match before we could even get the robot on the table to change the battery!! :ahh:

I totally understand why teams can't make it to matches and don't worry guys! It is possible to win 2 v 3. We did it in Florida when our partner was gone. We just changed our strategy and escaped with a win and decent ranking points.

I appreciate though when teams tell us they can't make it. At least we have time to change our strategy to accommodate. These robots are going to break, whether we like it or not. We just have to make the best of it! :)

[petek]

I suggest:

1. Find out which teams are struggling on Thursday and help them. Team 237 did this in Chesapeake and made a big difference for several teams. In one case, they worked on a robot right up until match time on Friday; we finished inspection in queuing, and I put the sticker on it as the team placed their robot in the starting box.

2. Make it a point to find out if your alliance partners are having problems as soon as you get your match list Friday morning. If they are, offer your assistance. Not just for the first match, but keep checking with your partners a match or two ahead as the day goes on.

Your scouting organization should be doing these things already. If they aren't here's an opportunity for them to expand their contribution.

[GaryVoshol]

An interesting topic. There were robots that were not able to take the field on Friday morning at both GLR and Detroit.

I think there needs to be a distinction made between bots that break, and bots that never made it in the first place. Those that didn't make a complete/correct robot during 6 weeks of build, and can't complete it on Thurdsay, should not get points for rounds in which they can't compete, until they finally get their bot on the floor. Yes, that means on Friday someone needs to keep track of a list of teams and check them off when they report to the floor. (Although I can see an easy way around that - you put a non-functional robot on the field to avoid a DQ. So I don't know if that rule would work.)

Incidentally, in Q3 at Detroit, 123's bot won the match single-handedly - it can be done.

The suggestion to help your alliance partners is a good one - but it doesn't solve the problem of those early Friday matches. The schedules aren't distributed far enough in advance - teams come to the field for the first several rounds without even having a strategy defined, much less knowing whether or not the partner's robot is functional. If qualifying match schedules could be passed out on Thursday afternoon, teams could begin to consult their alliance partners before pits close Thursday evening, offering help where needed.

[Richard Wallace]

... I think there needs to be a distinction made between bots that break, and bots that never made it in the first place. Those that didn't make a complete/correct robot during 6 weeks of build, and can't complete it on Thurdsay, should not get points for rounds in which they can't compete, until they finally get their bot on the floor. Yes, that means on Friday someone needs to keep track of a list of teams and check them off when they report to the floor. (Although I can see an easy way around that - you put a non-functional robot on the field to avoid a DQ. So I don't know if that rule would work.)The lead queuer normally keeps a list of robots that have not reported for queuing calls.

Some non-functional robots are not eligible to be put on the the field because they have not passed inspection, or because they have been damaged in a previous match, requiring repair and re-inspection.

Regarding a rules change to treat robots that fail to report for queuing because they have not passed initial inspection differently from those that fail to report because of damage during a previous match: the effect would be to apply a different penalty for failure to complete robot fabrication prior to the event. Such a penalty might be unfair to teams that have a non-compliant robot due to factors they cannot control, such as damage during shipping.

As currently written, compliance with the fabrication schedule rules (<R15> through <R20>) cannot be directly monitored by FIRST staff or volunteers.

[Jherbie53]

I know from experience that making it to matches is not an easy task. In Purdue the matches were literally back to back!! We got back from a match and we were already on our third call for the next match before we could even get the robot on the table to change the battery!! :ahh:

I totally understand why teams can't make it to matches and don't worry guys! It is possible to win 2 v 3. We did it in Florida when our partner was gone. We just changed our strategy and escaped with a win and decent ranking points.

I appreciate though when teams tell us they can't make it. At least we have time to change our strategy to accommodate. These robots are going to break, whether we like it or not. We just have to make the best of it! :)
I'm sure that was the same for just about every team. At West Michigan last year we had it twice that we needed to go to queuing straight from a match.

We all want to compete, so helping your alliance partners is what everyone should do. I'm thinking of not helping scout to wander the pits at West Michigan, for the very reason of helping other teams. Of course we want to win the robot part of the competition, but I'm looking forward to the Woodie Flowers and Chairmans awards this weekend even more.

[RoboMom]

I suggest:

1. Find out which teams are struggling on Thursday and help them. Team 237 did this in Chesapeake and made a big difference for several teams. In one case, they worked on a robot right up until match time on Friday; we finished inspection in queuing, and I put the sticker on it as the team placed their robot in the starting box.

2. Make it a point to find out if your alliance partners are having problems as soon as you get your match list Friday morning. If they are, offer your assistance. Not just for the first match, but keep checking with your partners a match or two ahead as the day goes on.

Your scouting organization should be doing these things already. If they aren't here's an opportunity for them to expand their contribution.

At Chesapeake, (15 rookies) we handed out sheets first thing asking who needed help and who was willing to help with specifics that could be circled. We circulated the pits every hour, doing followup, mixing and matching needs and wants. Team 237 was a great help, but so were about 10 other teams. One of the keys is prodding the teams to get at least a partial inspection early on Thursday. 24 had not passed inspection at 4 pm on Thursday, but all had on Friday morning. (and thanks to Pete for being so flexible!)
At Boston, we did the same thing. (14 rookies) Once again, there were 24 teams at 4pm on Thursday that had not passed. By Friday, they all had. There were about 5 teams helping one of the rookies at one point. As I explained to all the rookies, "your job is try not to be a burden to your alliance partner if you end up first tomorrow. You must get inspected. After you pass inspection, you can then work on whatever cool thing you are trying to finish."

This is the magic of FIRST.

[Wetzel]

For those who have not heard, or don't remember, I point you to Professor Gradys lecture on the Placebo.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39910&highlight=placebo

Wetzel

[Richard Wallace]

As I explained to all the rookies, "your job is try not to be a burden to your alliance partner if you end up first tomorrow. You must get inspected. After you pass inspection, you can then work on whatever cool thing you are trying to finish."

This is the magic of FIRST.
Well said, RoboMom!

At STL, I say something similar to teams that have not passed inspection at 4 pm on Thursday. After 5 pm, pit admin starts announcing the numbers of teams that have not reported to the scale for initial inspection, and asking those who are able to provide help to do so.

Friday morning, I visit the pits of teams that are allied in early matches (esp. matches that require queuing before opening ceremony) with those who have not passed inspection, advise them of their alliance partner's inspection status, and recommend they try to help out.

In my three years as STL lead inspector we've never had a robot fail to complete inspection before the first qualifying match.

[SirLancelot]

I wonder if the females in FIRST feel the same way :)
I definitely feel that way--we get into the stands after scurrying to get the bot fixed two minutes before the match and don't want to see anyone messing with it. If they do, they become the enemy--until we're on their alliance, that is--and it's up to our valiant drivers to crush them. In the most graciously professional way, that is.

~Anna

[KenWittlief]

The only solution to the problem of AWOL robots in matches is to go back to one on one games. No alliances.

Having a stand-in robot for a team that is having problems will put pressure on them to let the pitch-robot stand in for them, even when they could have their bot on the field. The teams with robot issues would end up sitting on the bench for the entire weekend (hey, that sounds familiar - just like HS sports!)

[Warren Boudreau]

Sandrag,

Teams missing matches has always and probably will remain an issue. After all, as long as you are at the competition you might as well try to win.

Even if a team would field their robot just to take up space on the field and field a human player to help out with ball handling, it would be a help. A couple of years ago, we had a match with a team that wasn't planning on fielding their robot. I begged/coerced them into just placing the robot on the field. It's presence was enough for us to win the match.

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to convince those teams that are not planning on fielding a robot for a match to contribute whatever they can to the match. Be it a dead robot or live human player.

The only fair way to replace missing robots, would be for FIRST to build and drive a surrogate robot for teams missing a match. Of course, the team would get no points. Even that idea has it's drawbacks.

[MrForbes]

I think the missing matches thing is a non-issue. If your team has a very good, competitive robot, you will rise in the standings. And if the odds really do play against you in the matches, at least you will be at the top of the other teams' scouting lists.

One thing that I notice lacking in this thread is the mention of helping the teams on the opposing alliance get working. A few times Friday we helped other teams with parts/tools so they could get going again.....and then played against them. It's a great feeling to know that you helped them out!

I agree that it is a robot competition, but it's one where we all win if we all do our best.

[mtaman02]

The suggestion to help your alliance partners is a good one - but it doesn't solve the problem of those early Friday matches. The schedules aren't distributed far enough in advance - teams come to the field for the first several rounds without even having a strategy defined, much less knowing whether or not the partner's robot is functional. If qualifying match schedules could be passed out on Thursday afternoon, teams could begin to consult their alliance partners before pits close Thursday evening, offering help where needed.

While this is a very good idea theres an issue with this and for years has not been resolved and personally I really think that its time FIRST asked HATCH to help come up with a way so that all the matches can be scheduled before the regional (HATCH = The software they use for IFI Comms, Scoring, Awards Listing Rankings etc.) Currently the problem is that you can only have one open match schedule at a time or so I have seen. Obviously practice schedules comes first. After thursdays matches have been run through then a qualifying schedule can be created. I mean maybe you can have 2 open schedules at a time but I doubt it.

And Instead of having the schedules ready by thursday afternoon how about having schedules when the regional comes to being one week away and have it mailed to the competing teams. How well would this work instead of cutting it short by half a day.

[Jherbie53]

While this is a very good idea theres an issue with this and for years has not been resolved and personally I really think that its time FIRST asked
the HATCH (The software they use for IFI Comms, Scoring, Awards Listing Rankings etc.) The Problem is that you can only have one open Match Schedule at a time. Obviously Practice Schedules comes first. After thursdays matches have been run through then a Qualifying schedule can be created. I mean maybe you can have 2 open schedules at a time but I doubt it. Instead of having the schedules ready by thursday afternoon how about having schedules when the regional comes to being one week away and have it mailed to the competing teams. How well would this work instead of cutting it sort by half a day.
That sounds like a good idea. Having the match schedule on the Monday before would allow everyone to see who the play with or against, and help them fix any problems that they might have. Another reason its good is that you can scout better and have more strategy during qualifying matches.

Anyhoo, back to the real topic. Robots breaking is a part of the game. Not having everyone out there is not good, but it happens. Finally, I think that you don't get any points if you don't have a human player out during the match, but I think that might of changed from past years.

[KenWittlief]

the way FIRST has it set up now, its almost as if they want us to help anyone who needs help

whether they will be alliance partners, or opponents, or they will not be in the same matches with your team at all!

If FIRST put out the match schedule for the entire event a week before, isnt that saying "only help those who will help you win matches?"

[J. Stofflett]

Sometimes it works to your advantage at the Buckeye we competed in the 1st qualifying match and one of our alliance partners didn’t make it. We ended up winning the match and all the judges saw it happen. We went on to win the General Motors Industrial Design Award on Saturday. We felt like we had a good design but this got the judges attention from the start. In Detroit in the 3rd qualification match again with all the judges sitting at the head table we took the field to find that both our partners this time hadn’t made it out of the pits. We ended up winning this match and the GM Industrial Design award again.

[mtaman02]

I don't think so, By putting out the match schedule earlier it gives you a heads up on how to dispense the scouting crews, Either which way the schedules will differ from Practice and Qualifying ( I think I mentioned that both schedules would be printed out in advance ) so you would still be able to help all the teams there.Than again I could be wrong if thats the way it sounds then maybe I'll scrap this idea and then come up with another.

[CircularLogic]

It seems that SandDrag's point is that its not fair that an alliance should have to suffer a loss because one team cannot make it out to the field. With this type of system, a team who would have easily made a top notch seeding otherwise, could get screwed by having several odd-man matches.


Lets just get something out of the way right now. These regional competitions are not fair.

The following things are not fair about them

1. The random alliance matches. In particular, my team did not play with a single team that made it to the final rounds meaning that our alliances never really had some of the strongest robots on the field. During some matches the line up was three great shooters vs. three decent dumpers. Was it a fair match to being with? No but thats the nature of the game.

2. Some robots dont make it to the field for their matches. My team had 6 losses at SBPLI. Two of those losses, we only had two robots on our alliance and in one match, we were the only robot that worked on our alliance. It wasnt fair that in a match against some of the best teams there, we were the only ones to work. Yes, those matches affected our standings severely (a possible 9-3 record is much better that 6-6). But its the nature of the game.

3. Some teams have virtually unlimited resources with lots of professionals to help with design and buildings while other teams have to build their robot in a physics classroom with little more than hand tools and have to raise every bit of their money through selling candy, etc. At that point the prowess of the team members are not the deciding factor of the relative success of their robot. Its not fair. But its the nature of the game.


FIRST isnt about winning. There are far too many inequities to make it about winning. FIRST is about pride. Its about the pride that you take in your robot, no matter how bad it may look or to what degree it functions. It is about the pride you take in your team for uniting behind a common goal no matter what type of awards you win. Its about the pride that you have for devoting your time and resources to helping teams that may very well be your opponent in the next match.


I dont compete to win prizes, I compete to win Pride.

[mtaman02]

I dont compete to win prizes, I compete to win Pride.

Amen to that my friend

[Dan Petrovic]

You are right. Something must be done.

However, nothing will be done.

FIRST challenges the students to make a functional and robust robot. Obviously, some teams do it better than others and robots break. That is all a part of the challenge.

Why do you think there is a 6 week time period? Why do you think there is a 120 lb weight limit, minus battery and bumpers of course. Why do you think there is a 28x38x50 size limit? It's all a part of the challenge. Robots breaking is not only a challenge for the alliance partners, but a challenge for the team with the broken robot.

Nothing is learned without challenges and mistakes. A missing alliance partner helps you learn how to accommodate for the detriment.

You are right. Teams who can put a robot on the field every match shouldn't suffer. But the teams with the broken robots are suffering as well. It's not like they were off having lunch while their fully functional robot sits in their pit.