Bring Back the Rotating Light

[sanddrag]

Those LEDs are hardly visible at all. The flags are okay, but it they kind of look cheesey and they aren't bright and flashy. I know the plastic covers always broke, and they used power, and they took up weight and space, but I really miss those darn rotating lights. I don't think anything since has been as visible as those were. I say FIRST should bring them back. What do you say?

[George A.]

I concur wholeheartedly. Those things were a) awesome b) made identifying allainces easy and c) were awesome.

It's a shame that the last year (if memory serves me correctly) was 2001 where there were no "allainces" perse since all four teams were on the same team...and the only real people who needed to know which robot was which color were the refs/scorers.

[Rick TYler]

Just say no to police lights.

[sanddrag]

The last year of the rotating lights was 2003 when they got smashed on the field. But it was also a different light than 2002 and previous.

[Daniel Brim]

Honestly, I was not a huge fan of the rotating light because of how they broke. If they do bring it back, it should be with a tougher cover that won't crack (and in several cases shatter). Also, it would be better if it didn't count towards the weight limit.

[Cory]

don't bring it back. It's too big and weighs too much.

It was definitely easier to see though.

[Mike AA]

What about a bubble of LEDs say, 20-30 bi-color, red/blue. with a constant on controlled by the controller for which color it has. Simmilar to the LED this year but about 20 times brighter and constant on. I liked the visability of the rotating light but not the size nor weight. A bubble of LEDs would weigh probably around 4 ounces and would be highly visable and still small ( and cheap/inexpensive).

-Mike

[Katie Reynolds]

I say FIRST should bring them back. What do you say?I agree (I was just talking to a teammate about this, last weekend!) They were so much easier to see!

[Rich Wong]

Electro-Luminescent lamps maybe a solution.
They are flat, lite weight and flexible.

[Ben Lauer]

Personally, I don't know why they didn't just use flags in the first place. You can see them any angle, they don't cost you precious weight on the Robot, you don't have wire them, and they are very cheap to fix. Insert new PVC pipe here, apply zip-tie.

We spent too many hours in 2003 trying to figure out a way to get the rotating light to fold down so that we could go under the bar. That was a ridiculous waste of time (but it was cool!)

What did FIRST have those first 3-6 years? Was it always the light?

[Allison K]

This would be a wonderful thread for a poll.

Ranked...
1st choice - Flags (Pros of flags outwewigh the cheesiness)
2nd choice - Rotating lights (best visibility)
3rd choice - LED's

[J Flex 188]

Our entire robot's design could have potentially swung on whether or not we could have gotten that light to fold down! It was getting relatively late into the season and I remember we had to decide right then and there whether or not we would want to "limbo" as we called it. We managed to finagle that light onto a piece of surgical tubing and every time we ran headlong underneath the bar, the cover would hit full on, bounce down and come back up. It caused a grimace every time on my part, but if I remember correctly, we only had to replace them twice through the entire season. That robot went on to win WMR and finish 2nd at CR though. Maybe the light was a bonus?! :ahh:

Personally, I don't know why they didn't just use flags in the first place. You can see them any angle, they don't cost you precious weight on the Robot, you don't have wire them, and they are very cheap to fix. Insert new PVC pipe here, apply zip-tie.

We spent too many hours in 2003 trying to figure out a way to get the rotating light to fold down so that we could go under the bar. That was a ridiculous waste of time (but it was cool!)

What did FIRST have those first 3-6 years? Was it always the light?

[nuggetsyl]

i like the led because it does not weight as much

shaun

[Jack Jones]

i like the led because it does not weight as much

shaun

So they make the weight limit 124 lb - problem solved (http://www.edarley.com/darley/finditem.cfm?itemid=16766).

From a refs point of view - having 6 robots out there and two with dislodged flags, makes it hard to know who's off-sides or not. The cost of a quality light is about one percent the cost of the average robot; and the light can be used year after year - so why we have those wimpy LEDs and projectile flags is beyond me!

[MikeDubreuil]

I'm going to say don't bring them back. Two reasons: weight and a uniform place to look to determine robot color. Weight is obvious. I found it much easier to just look above a robot to see its color rather than stare at a robot to see where they hid their team light. Teams were supposed to make their team light obvious from 4 sides, but we know how well that kind of rule is followed. The new flag system is great because their is an exact position for the flag.

[KTorak]

I'd like to see the Rotating lights back. I'm asuming the LEDs are done if FIRST made an update saying they aren't required to compete (though some regionals changed that). However, the rotating lights are much more visible for alliance members. But, they do not give out information such as when a robot is in autonomous or disabled. However...neither do flags :P The flags were cheesy in my opinion and annoying at time (more for the already over loaded queuers to do and stuff). But, I'd still like to see the rotating light...maybe if it had a cigarette lighter on it and you wired it to where you needed it....then you could easily remove it so it doesn't count for weight.

[Billfred]

I'm asuming the LEDs are done if FIRST made an update saying they aren't required to compete (though some regionals changed that).
At UCF, it was "strongly encouraged" to have your LED.

Personally, I think a little tweak to the blink routines of the LEDs would do a world of good. Make human-operated a solid color, a fast blink for autonomous, and a slower blink for disabled. (Currently, it's different.) The problem for me was when it'd be three seconds until the next blinking of the light.

The flags are decent, but they seem to fall out at the most inopportune times. Combine it with a little cheesiness factor (and how are they going to handle it in the future when they want arms again?), and I really think a bright, somewhat steady light is the better route.

[mtaman02]

I concur wholeheartedly. Those things were a) awesome b) made identifying allainces easy and c) were awesome.

It's a shame that the last year (if memory serves me correctly) was 2001 where there were no "allainces" perse since all four teams were on the same team...and the only real people who needed to know which robot was which color were the refs/scorers.

Yep 2001 was the year were everyone worked together to achieve some diabolical dynamics =). The LEDS wouldn't be soo bad if FIRST could provide two more of them. I think it was in 2004 were teams actually recieved 4 LEDs that needed to be placed on all sides of the robot so that the robot was visible from all angles to see what alliance it was on. Since 2004 though first has only sent out 1 or 2 to each team.

Personally I miss the rotating light it made field reset fun b/c then you would have to vacuum up the broken bulbs left behind. However I also like the LEDS because you don't have to change lens covers and its lighter and less space & power consuming.

Either or I like them both. =)

[Al Skierkiewicz]

You want to bring back a device that does nothing for the competition, adds 2-4 lbs. (depending on model) and sucks more than 2 amps just to have flashy lights?

[Jack Jones]

You want to bring back a device that does nothing for the competition, adds 2-4 lbs. (depending on model) and sucks more than 2 amps just to have flashy lights?

Bad cop time! ;) ;)

"does nothing for the competition" - except to know who's who.
"adds 2-4 lbs" - with bumpers up to 15 lbs they pale.
"sucks more than 2 amps" - after a few hundred hours they will get dimmer.

[Gdeaver]

Xenon strobes have become cheap, small and low power. Much greater visibility than LEDs.

[Ben Piecuch]

The present LED's can be used by the IFI guys as an onfield diagnostics tool. The blinking rate will change based on the status of the robot, and a "trained" eye will be able to pick up the difference on the side of the field.

What the patterns are, how/why it changes, I have no idea (I'm not an IFI guy.) So, while FIRST states that these LED's are optional, they're still a very good tool to have on the robot. Because of this feature, I don't see the LED's going away any time soon.

Now, as far as my opinion goes, in retrospect I actually did like the visibility that the rotating lights gave. Did I like the extra volume, weight, and the fragility of them? No. However, we all need to make trade-offs with our robot designs, and work within the constrains of the rules. If they re-introduce the rotating lights, it'll just be another hiccup in our 6-week build. Which reminds me, I can't believe the amount of complaints people had over a 12" long piece of 1/2" PVC. (FIRST could probably go back to the Blue and Red team numbers and people would complain about having to do twice as much work to print our a number.)

As always, there is a forum at the end of the year which you can submit suggestions and ideas to. If you feel you have a better solution, please pass that along to FIRST. Your complaints, while they may be valid, aren't helping to solve the problem.

BEN

[Jeff Rodriguez]

I thought they were back? ;) (look in the bottom left corner)
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/fc4/fc4f33f35db97cb616a26f72469b7c8d_m.jpg

If you really want them, you can use them as a non-functional decoration, as 121 did this year. They change the lens cover as needed to indicate their alliance color, just like old times.
Their light caught my eye more than once, and was very visible.

[Chris Hibner]

I'm going to agree with Ben. This is the first year that I have been able to easily identify which robots are on which alliance. I find that it's much easier with the flags than it was with the light.

In addition to that, I also really agree with Al - I hated the current draw, I hated the weight, I hated finding a place to package it, and I hated the awful grinding noise those lights made. I was happy to see them go.

The LEDs were useless in my opinion. The flags solve the problem quite well.

[Tim Baird]

You want to bring back a device that does nothing for the competition, adds 2-4 lbs. (depending on model) and sucks more than 2 amps just to have flashy lights?

Well, if the weight of the battery didn't count towards the robot weight, and perhaps the light had it's own smaller, stand alone battery that also didn't count towards the robot weight it wouldn't be that bad. I say make it a little bit smaller and it would be more reasonable, if anything, it'll be better than the flags.

Plus, the added weight isn't all that bad ... it will increase the frictional force between the wheels and the carpet! :p

[Richard Wallace]

This would be a wonderful thread for a poll.

Ranked...
1st choice - Flags (Pros of flags outwewigh the cheesiness)
2nd choice - Rotating lights (best visibility)
3rd choice - LED'sYeah, what Allison said.

Sanddrag, thanks for the thread. Would you like to add a poll?

[Rob]

[QUOTE=Ogre
If you really want them, you can use them as a non-functional decoration, as 121 did this year. They change the lens cover as needed to indicate their alliance color, just like old times.
Their light caught my eye more than once, and was very visible.[/QUOTE]

We chose to use the light as a decoration for the classic FIRST appeal as well as siliness factor.

It is the light from 2003. The light, lexan and velcro mounting bracket, wire and spike weigh under a pound together.

The light is situated at the bottom of our lexan drum/spiral, and actually looks pretty slick on the field.

Personally, I think the flags were awesome in helping identify the alliances (although between the bumpers and flags some matches did look like bumper cars...) In my opinion, the flags are winners, especially if they can be secured from falling out in the future. (In a semi-final round, Gael Force shot Pink's flag completely over the driver station and off the field!)

Good luck everyone!

Rob

[Tim Baird]

(In a semi-final round, Gael Force shot Pink's flag completely over the driver station and off the field!)

That was my main complaint with the flags. If there was a collar at the top of the PVC tube that would tighten around the flag and hopefully hold it in, then it would be much better.

Of course, if it wouldn't come out from a ball hit, and instead took the hit and deflected the ball, then that would give teams the ability to strategically place the flag and give themselves a probably unfair height advantage when playing defense. So, who knows?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

That was my main complaint with the flags. If there was a collar at the top of the PVC tube that would tighten around the flag and hopefully hold it in, then it would be much better.

Of course, if it wouldn't come out from a ball hit, and instead took the hit and deflected the ball, then that would give teams the ability to strategically place the flag and give themselves a probably unfair height advantage when playing defense. So, who knows?
In Wisconsin, a team actually scored a flag into the high goal.

[KenWittlief]

there is something deeply ingrained in our subconscous, when we see a rotating red or blue light it triggers an almost instinctive emotional response:

"DANGER! WARNING! EMERGENCY! POWER! CAUTION! STAY BACK!"

The old rotating lights had that sense of seriousness: this is a powerfull dangerous machine - stay back!"

You just dont get that same emotional punch from a bunch of blinking LEDS, or bicycle flags.

[Biff]

Honestly, I was not a huge fan of the rotating light because of how they broke. If they do bring it back, it should be with a tougher cover that won't crack (and in several cases shatter). Also, it would be better if it didn't count towards the weight limit.
You hit the nails on the head(s).

[Alex Burman]

i think we brought the rotating light to a whole new level http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img/8d9/8d9a9ae3073e7b31ef6baee7895c3844_l.jpg

[gizmoman1089]

I beieve that know matter what happens there will always be some sort of light on the robot. This light ensures the ref's and yourself that your robot is powered up and on the right team. Though the rotating lights did break in the 2003 season (my rookie year) I sort of liked them better. This year FIRST only supplied teams with one L.E.D. If FIRST is going to keep the L.E.D's then they should ensure that all teams have an L.E.D on all four sides of there machine. OR they should bring back the rotating light. To solve the issue of weight, when you get weighed in they should subtract the exact amount of weight for the LIGHT. not including wireing. (even the light weight L.E.D.'s had wires.)

[chrisinmd]

I found an old LED from last year so I had two to mount on the robot. One on each side of our bin, high up. I think the hight and the fact that there was two of them helped a lot to tell whether or not the robot was powered up, what mode it was in, and which alliance it was on. Sometimes it was hard to see the LED on other robots, although I didn't see any that had negelected it entirely, some of them were hidden well!
The flags worked well, but there was an issue with them coming out when robots were tipped, and I did see one instance where a poof ball from a shooter hit the top of the flag and sucked it right out of the holder.

-Chris

[mtaman02]

there is something deeply ingrained in our subconscous, when we see a rotating red or blue light it triggers an almost instinctive emotional response:

"DANGER! WARNING! EMERGENCY! POWER! CAUTION! STAY BACK!"

The old rotating lights had that sense of seriousness: this is a powerfull dangerous machine - stay back!"

You just dont get that same emotional punch from a bunch of blinking LEDS, or bicycle flags.


Yeah on a lot of the robots from 3 years ago, with the rotating light they looked extremely cool

The Good Things about the lights
- They worked and you didn't have to worry about the connectors falling off the RC
The Bad Things about the lights
- They did use alot of energy and in a game like this years the battery would be completely dead.
- They had their share of weight and location issues.

The Good Things about the LEDs
- They too also work and last alot longer then a standard light bulb
- They help identify certain issues with the robot (mainly hardware or software) if they are mounted were they can be easliy seen
- They're virtually weightless
The Bad Things about the LEDs
- They too also have location issues
- There is no way to fasten them to the RC whatsoever so that the connectors don't come off if a robot went head on with a wall or another robot.

I don't like the flags all that much makes the robots look alot less serious. Yeah they help with identifying the teams but only if the team remembers to put them on their robot. They can become a flying projectile, they can break extremely easliy if not mounted the right way. There's just to much problems with having a flag on the robot, and it can confuse the driver as to where the robots position is on the field. At least with light covers & LEDs they didn't waive in the wind or obstruct anothers view.

Too Solve the LED wiring issue if you cut the wires for the leds to the size you need it and resolder the wires you'll be okay but always leave like 3 inches on the connector end and take what off what you don't need from the LED end and mate the pieces together simple 1-2-3 =) and it looks better too.

Heres an Idea: If FIRST set some guidlines that the light can be powered off of its own source but must remain in the electrical circuit and it would not be counted towards the weight & that a mandatory LED must be attached to the robot & clearly visible so that IFI can identify problems with your robot before / during / after a match , would you the teams take the light back. Theres just one catch Teams cannot abuse the amount of wire used. I see alot of teams that have nice looking robots and nicely mounted electronics but a ball of yarn underneath everything in hiding. Use only What you need and dispose of the rest, You'll save the little bit of weight that matters the most that way. Wire doesn't way much but will help in getting rid of that couple of ounces rather then swiss cheesing (Drilling) the chassis which should always be a last resort. And it will make everything look so much more neater and accessible.

[dhitchco]

Here are some LED light assemblies that scream "danger, I'm tough".

http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=GR030

Maybe next year. I agree that I like lights better than flags. The other "small" issue with flags this year is that they're popping-out of the PVC pipes as robots get hit hard and become nuisance items on the playing field. Plus lights are easier to see who's in the backfield, not fromthe judging perspective, but from a fan's perspective sitting in the "nose bleed" seats in the Georgia Dome.

[KenWittlief]

Here are some LED light assemblies that scream "danger, I'm tough".

http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=GR030




uhmmmm.... what?! the page in your link has Halogen lamp warning lights - $45 each.

Halogen LEDs?! did I miss a breakthrough in displays? :^)

[Dan Petrovic]

I agree. Those lights owned. I think one of the reasons they got rid of them in the first place is so teams don't have to worry about what alliance they are going to be on. That's why the crew has them and gives them out while the teams que for their match like this year.

[Rich Wong]

I found these items that maybe a better solution for FRC in the future-

LED clusters and LED light bulbs. All use 12vdc.
The 3 inch cluster only draw 220ma; but kind of expensive at $181 a piece.

The colors available are white, red, green, blue and amber.
:)

[lukevanoort]

I have to admit, I was overjoyed to read the flag rule this year. Last year I was a rookie, so I can't speak about the old rotating lights (although I have tapes of old matches), but those LEDs were darn near impossible to see. The way I see it there are four problems: the blink time is too long, they are too small (for visibility), they aren't bright enough, and they aren't eye catching. The blink time is just a programming thing and could be easily changed (I think). The next two issues can be solved by upgrading the LED. However the last one is hard, and is a fault with the flags too. If a robot goes haywire in auto and comes charging at you, are you going to notice something with little blinkers on it or a flag? Definatly not, it needs power. The rotating lights are better in this respect but they are a bit bulky. So, I'm going to go with the independent unit that can be quickly mounted, not included in the wieght limit, and self powered, as well as a diagnostic LED. It just seems to solve the most of the problems with either system. (Assuming the lights aren't huge)

[Rob2713g]

I found these items that maybe a better solution for FRC in the future-

LED clusters and LED light bulbs. All use 12vdc.
The 3 inch cluster only draw 220ma; but kind of expensive at $181 a piece.

The colors available are white, red, green, blue and amber.
:)


LEDs are pretty cheap, so you could probably build your own with a couple resistors for a few bucks. Is there something special about these clusters that makes them a $181?

[sanddrag]

LEDs can get very expensive very fast, when you are talking about the superbright ones. About 50 cents each maybe. Say you want a square that is 10 led's on an edge (maybe about 2", so they are fairly tightly packed). Filled, that is 100 LEDs and $50.

[Rickertsen2]

LEDs can get very expensive very fast, when you are talking about the superbright ones. About 50 cents each maybe. Say you want a square that is 10 led's on an edge (maybe about 2", so they are fairly tightly packed). Filled, that is 100 LEDs and $50.

Right now we have 1 superbright. I think that about 9 more and the brightness would be quite workable.

I vote for an improved LED cluster.

Xenon strobes have become cheap, small and low power. Much greater visibility than LEDs.

I think strobing robots would be destracting

[BerserkerSpyke]

In Wisconsin, a team actually scored a flag into the high goal.
That happened on Long Island in one of the many final matches I do believe.

I think that the LEDs are useful but we need more of them, at least one for each side. At one point during SBPLI, I couldn't see from the stands that the LED was on (Neither could anyone on my Team) so we obviously thought it wasn't. I ran down onto the field shouting "Don't start the match; 871 isn't on!" It caused a little disruption, but as it turned out we were on, the light just wasn't visible. We didn't want to mess up match 33 take 3.

[Billfred]

Just as a thought, why not bring back the rotating light, but protect the thing better?

Bring back the light, but then also provide a metal grate to protect it from most whacks. If you need to change the cover for the next match, just unbolt the grate and bolt it back before the match.

Visible, pretty durable, and surely not too expensive if you're getting a couple thousand made at a go. (FIRST has had parts made expressly for itself in the past, after all--tetra clovers, anyone?)

[The Lucas]

The rotating light is right where I like it ... on top of our tower in the pit. Those things were heavy. For most teams they either broke or were hidden (do you know how many visiblity arguements I had as an inspector?). Spare Parts ran out of covers, while we were up to our knees in shards. Teams routinely forgot to change their cover color. Does anyone remember how difficult it was to isolate the grounding on the light from your chassis?

I like the Bike flags. They are light weight, cheap and highly visible (above the bot). Queuing hands out the right color flags to the teams so there is no confusion. The rules regarding them are easy to follow and even if a team forgets their holder (many have) they can make one in 15min. Plus it is a real crowd pleaser when a big hit sends a flag flying (one went into the stands at Philly :D ).

[ahanktcd]

What about a bubble of LEDs say, 20-30 bi-color, red/blue. with a constant on controlled by the controller for which color it has. Simmilar to the LED this year but about 20 times brighter and constant on. I liked the visability of the rotating light but not the size nor weight. A bubble of LEDs would weigh probably around 4 ounces and would be highly visable and still small ( and cheap/inexpensive).

-Mike

I'd agree with this! I've got 192 white LEDs grouped into 16 vertical bars under a clear plasic cover. A solid-state rotating light. I use this on my bicycle at night... low power and VERY, VERY cool. (Also useful at robot demos) With cheap LEDs from ebay, it cost about $30. It may be too expensive for FIRST, but it's low-power, lighter weight, silent, and much more durable. We just need a really good, solid Lexan cover (unbreakable) and we'll be all set.

[Tim Delles]

I have to say I much perfer the LED's we have now. The light was pretty hefty and if it wasn't in good enough site for the inspectors it was a pain to move. Also that thing had to weigh a bit more than we all thought.

[Chris Hibner]

I'd agree with this! I've got 192 white LEDs grouped into 16 vertical bars under a clear plasic cover. A solid-state rotating light. I use this on my bicycle at night... low power and VERY, VERY cool. (Also useful at robot demos) With cheap LEDs from ebay, it cost about $30. It may be too expensive for FIRST, but it's low-power, lighter weight, silent, and much more durable. We just need a really good, solid Lexan cover (unbreakable) and we'll be all set.

My old team (308) did this in 1999 and it worked very well. We had an array of about 50 LEDs on each side arranged in a ~4" X 8" rectangle. If I find a picture, I'll put one up.

[Richard Wallace]

Still no poll?

I'm against bringing back the rotating light. Yes, it looked cool and conveyed the "danger, stay back" message better than blinking LEDs or flimsy flags. But its weight, ampere draw, space claim, fragility, and inconvenient lack of electrical isolation from its own mounting studs combine to make it a really undesirable robot part.

I like the flags as alliance IDs. And I'd like to see a slightly more robust LED for use as an IFI diagnostic.