Microsoft Robotics Studio [Archive]

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JohnBoucher

20-06-2006, 12:16

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1978565,00.asp

It was only a matter of time... Has anyone looked at the beta?

Zak698

20-06-2006, 12:22

You know microsoft dosent stand a chance against first... because some day we will take over the world.... not the robot of bill gates... but that dose look very intreasting none the less

Elgin Clock

20-06-2006, 12:57

I find it funny that the person who is the general manager for Microsoft's Robotics Initiative name is Tandy.

Shouldn't he be working for Radio Shack, and not Microsoft? :rolleyes: :p

tiffany34990

20-06-2006, 13:50

It looks really interesting. A lot of companies are trying to achieve FIRST's goal.
One main factor is trying to make kits that are not expensive and easy to use.

Donut

20-06-2006, 14:22

I'll wait until they actually show me a kit before I decide if this will be any good. I don't know though, Microsoft and robot kits...?

I like their idea of some more standardized robot systems. It'd be nice to easily mix multiple robot kits/pieces together into one "super" robot.

Madison

20-06-2006, 14:24

I don't know though, Microsoft and robot kits...?

Hey, we've been doing okay so far :p

KenWittlief

20-06-2006, 14:42

petek

20-06-2006, 18:30

I dont see any mention of kits in the news release. They are only taking about an operating system, not hardware.

Personally I cant imagine any real time system with mechanical components running on Microsoft based SW. How does the old joke go? If Microsoft built cars then.... ?When it was introduced in 1991, I wonder how many people thought that Visual Basic would become the defacto standard office automation language and that by now supposedly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_basic) over 50% of all programmers would use it?

According to an article (http://www.technewsworld.com/story/KckBhJJDyjKtwi/Microsoft-Developing-Robotics-Software.xhtml) I saw:
...others, not just Microsoft, will be able to offer software development tools for use with the underlying Microsoft Robotics Studio system. And while the system will run on Windows, it can be used to create programs for all types of robots, not just those using the Microsoft operating system, Trower said.

Maybe even ones using Microchip controllers...

Donut

20-06-2006, 20:41

That would certainly make code transfers easier.

Tom Bottiglieri

20-06-2006, 22:15

This is not a robotics kit. MRS (Microsoft Robotics Studio) is an SDK that allows robot programmers to create and manage code for robots.

Here's a good video showing some of the features of the Microsoft Robotics SDK.

http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=206574

Astronouth7303

22-06-2006, 11:09

While a universal platform is a good goal, isn't the differences between controllers where their power comes from?

I'm watching that hour-long intro.

Within the first 10 minutes:

It's sounding like a good way to introduce hard-to-find bugs: deadlocks, race conditions, and any other concurrent bugs
Managed code = .NET; if it has the performance of .NET 2.0, I'm not touching this.
Simulator = lots of work while every team creates a realistic, accurate, high-res model of their robot
JScript, VBScript = I'm thinking running Microsoft OS (likely based on NT) on your robot

Did we mention that our current processor runs only at 20MHz? (Compared to the current 4000 MHz.)

Of course, it could be that it compiles to .NET (CLR) and converts that to the local machine language. (Much like JIT compiling.) Maybe this is an effort by Mircrosoft to show the versatility of .NET.

Nice lawnmower, though. (The coffee maker is a LIDAR unit, BTW.)

I'm willing to bet that this is going to be about as useful to us as CoreChart (that graphical assembler).

EDIT: At about 16:03, notice the Windows Live logo.

Astronouth7303

22-06-2006, 12:03

So I finished that intro. Here's what I noticed.

Windows logo on NXT :ahh:
IE required (no Gecko goodness)
Jumping boxes in simulator
Requirements of a PC to run this
This does fulfil some of my goals for FURC
The 1 female shows up in the last 8 minutes and is only around for 4 (in an 58 minute introduction)
Not a single CMUCam, but plenty of LIDAR boxes. (And guess which is cheaper)
Can handle many platforms of robots, but only 1 platform of PC
.NET through and through
A PC required???

"2 lines" to express lots of complex information. Sounds like a good way to overload one's brain.

How many times will you hear "Oh. I guess the simulation was wrong."?

Much like CoreChart, this has potential but the jury's still out.

Andrew Rudolph

23-06-2006, 01:10

Microsoft has set up a blog for the devolpment of the program,

http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_robotics_studio/default.aspx

Alexa Stott

07-07-2006, 09:13

BusinessWeek recently had an article (http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/06/robots/index_01.htm) on the Microsoft Robotics Studio.

I'm in the process of downloading the beta version of it, and I'll post more later. I'm a bit skeptical about Microsoft creating this robotics programming software, but I'll give it a shot...

6600gt

07-07-2006, 15:34

This is funny:

www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32845

Especially read the last 2 lines.

Tazlikesrobots

03-08-2006, 08:42

Check out this aricle in robot magazine!

http://www.botmag.com/issue3/microsoft_technical_preview_3.shtml

MikeDubreuil

13-12-2006, 16:59

Microsoft has released the first version of the software. You can download it free of charge for non-commercial use.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/robotics/

Cody Carey

13-12-2006, 17:06

There isn't really anything that I can use... but I played around with it :)

I was lost.

Adam Y.

13-12-2006, 17:23

Astronouth7303

13-12-2006, 17:49

Well that shouldn't be a problem considering the fact that Parallax is on that list. I wonder how extendable it is.

Parallax hasn't been used since 2003. InnovationFIRST released the Microchip PIC18F-based controller in 2004.

Tom Bottiglieri

13-12-2006, 17:54

If I remember correctly, this platform brings the idea of a PC base station into play. The robot has standard driver software running on its local hardware, and is connected to a PC (via LAN, Bluetooth, Serial, etc..) An app running on the PC reads and writes data to the robot based on user input and pre coded "stuff". The robot speaks the same language as the app and knows how to move accordingly.

I'm not sure how far the robot feedback is abstracted. If it gets processed on the PC, we would be able to do some pretty neat stuff with this. I'm definitely going to give it a try.

EHaskins

13-12-2006, 18:00

I don't think it will be usefull for FIRST, but that won't stop me from looking.:D

efoote868

13-12-2006, 18:23

My Linux loving friend once told me "Computers are like air conditioners. They break when you open Windows".

One thing that I'm not so keen about Windows making a standard is, who is going to conform to it? besides, Windows makes software.... and robots are hardware. I just don't see this working out.

chris31

13-12-2006, 18:27

Yeah, Im not sure completly who they are targetting. Not like your gonna run windows on you PIC16 or PIC18 chips.

Tom Bottiglieri

13-12-2006, 19:30

Yeah, Im not sure completly who they are targetting. Not like your gonna run windows on you PIC16 or PIC18 chips.

Thats not the point. Embedded devices are much harder to code for than applications on a PC. The whole point of this is you can develop intricate programs on the PC that have access to all the processing power and memory available to them. You can write code that accesses SQL databases, gets data off the internet, or runs algorithms that are way too complex and intensive to run on the PIC... You get the point? They've included a Visual programming language (looks a bit like the easyC we've come to know, except WAY more powerful), or you can code in any visual studio editor. (C++, C#, VB.. etc..)

This also gives you a full suite of simulation capabilities. I dont know one FIRST team out there who has had enough time to fully program their robot in the build season. Theoretically, this simulation system will stop that problem.

I'll be working on getting this to interact with FIRST hardware. Even if its only good for prototyping and tuning individual system, it beats having to hard code everything.

chris31

13-12-2006, 19:51

Thats not the point. Embedded devices are much harder to code for than applications on a PC. The whole point of this is you can develop intricate programs on the PC that have access to all the processing power and memory available to them. You can write code that accesses SQL databases, gets data off the internet, or runs algorithms that are way too complex and intensive to run on the PIC... You get the point? They've included a Visual programming language (looks a bit like the easyC we've come to know, except WAY more powerful), or you can code in any visual studio editor. (C++, C#, VB.. etc..)

This also gives you a full suite of simulation capabilities. I dont know one FIRST team out there who has had enough time to fully program their robot in the build season. Theoretically, this simulation system will stop that problem.

I'll be working on getting this to interact with FIRST hardware. Even if its only good for prototyping and tuning individual system, it beats having to hard code everything.

I understand the simulation part. But I am confused as to the actual hardware they expect this to be running on.

Tom Bottiglieri

13-12-2006, 19:59

I understand the simulation part. But I am confused as to the actual hardware they expect this to be running on.
Thats what I'm trying to figure out. There's alot of documentation and none of it is telling me what I want to know.

AlexW

14-12-2006, 10:13

First of all, I wanted to say hi to everyone here! This is my "official" first post. Yes, I'm a newbie/freshman, haha! A friend of my company (Trossen Robotics) had asked me and some of my coworkers to share some of our knowledge on these forums. We'll be sharing knowledge in more robotic development related areas, but I couldn't hesitate to post in this forum after I saw it:)

After reading everyone's posts in this forum, Tom, I believe is pretty much right on the money. From what I understand about it, the possibilities of Microsoft Robotics Studio (we did a little bit of beta testing) are near endless.

In a nutshell, companies create 3rd party tools which basically expose their hardware and software as web services. This allows you to control your Robot remotely via Web Services and Messages, thus putting all of the processing on a separate computer. Your robot transmits data back to the computer, and using your own high-level programming language, you decide what you want to do with that data. As Tom had said, it provides a way to allow many different hardware devices to talk to each other that previously could not do so. Additionally, with the new Express languages being free, there is no more cost for Microsoft languages and their IDE's either.

In regards to the question about what companies will/have partnered up with Microsoft with Robotics Studio, you can check out their partner page to get an idea of how large this is getting (make sure to look at the companies you never heard of):

http://msdn.microsoft.com/robotics/Partners/Partners/default.aspx

The major benefit of this level of PC based robotics is that enables developers to eliminate the need to reinvent the wheel, ie. build a robot basically from scratch, each and every time they decide to develop a robot. Sure, this may be fun for some, but for a lot of people and companies, this is a really hard, if not unattainable goal. This is one of the reasons why commercial robotics is only at the point it is now, and why you don't see robots at every street corner. As I'm sure all of you above anyone else can appreciate; a lot of time, effort, and money go into building a robot.

Fast forward to the future, and see what benefits this will give all of us: bigger, faster, stronger, speedier development, and most of all, more intelligent robots! Everyone can now build off of each others ideas, find out what succeeds and what fails.

In essence, it's not really any different than what FIRST does now, btw, I am a HUGE fan of you guys:) I can't wait to check out some competitions myself! I like to look at Robotics Studio as taking robotics to the next level. Could you imagine... life-size humanoid competitions?

BTW, for anyone who is interested, we are developing a Robotic System that we hope to someday expose it as web services to plug into Robotics Studio. Although the beta version to the public won't be available for quite some time, you can read what it's all about here:

http://www.trossenrobotics.com/trs/trs.aspx

Tom Bottiglieri

14-12-2006, 12:08

In a nutshell, companies create 3rd party tools which basically expose their hardware and software as web services. This allows you to control your Robot remotely via Web Services and Messages, thus putting all of the processing on a separate computer. Your robot transmits data back to the computer, and using your own high-level programming language, you decide what you want to do with that data. ]
Do you know where I can find the documentation on how these services work? Is there standardization between them? The only easy way to talk to the Innovation FIRST controllers is through the serial port. I know the Lego RCX bricks work in a similar way, so maybe I can salvage some code from that service on the PC end.

What I'm hoping to do is either find a defined protocol or come up with my own to communicate with the FIRST controller. From there it will be easy to write a robot side driver which simply takes all of the incoming motor and relay values, and writes them to their corresponding output.

AlexW

14-12-2006, 12:28

Sure do Tom! Unfortunately, I can't help much with the development, because I just know the overall jist of how Robotics Studio works, not how to work with it. BUT, I do know where to go to get all the info you need:

Probably the first place (if you haven't gone there already) is the Getting Started section on Robotics Studio's site:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/robotics/getstarted/default.aspx

I highly recommend taking the time to go through all of the sections in Getting Started, because Robotics Studio uses some pretty advanced level concepts.

Microsoft Robotics Studio Runtime - An Introduction has, IMO, the "beefy" information.

Once you go through all of the Getting Started sections, you should be ready to start with the tutorials:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/robotics/learn/default.aspx

There are a ton of code examples/downloads on the tutorials page as well.

Hope this helps you out a bit:)

Adam Y.

14-12-2006, 17:05

I understand the simulation part. But I am confused as to the actual hardware they expect this to be running on.
Well the NXT and the Parallax Boe Bot is supported. That much I know.
Do you know where I can find the documentation on how these services work? Is there standardization between them? The only easy way to talk to the Innovation FIRST controllers is through the serial port. I know the Lego RCX bricks work in a similar way, so maybe I can salvage some code from that service on the PC end.

What I'm hoping to do is either find a defined protocol or come up with my own to communicate with the FIRST controller. From there it will be easy to write a robot side driver which simply takes all of the incoming motor and relay values, and writes them to their corresponding output.
The help file in the program describes how to implement the Lego controllers. It actually seems pretty possible albeit not legal within the confines of the competition.

Frenchie

16-12-2006, 10:48

Now that Microsoft Robotics Studio is out... Has anybody figured out a potential use for FIRST?

Francois

rjmah

26-04-2007, 15:41

Version 1.5 of MS Robotics Studio is now free for download (Community Technical Preview).

http://msdn.microsoft.com/robotics/downloads/default.aspx?WT.svl=1

They are supporting games called RoboCup 2007 soccer in Atlanta.

Pavan Dave

26-04-2007, 22:30

Some of you may find this thread interesting.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55244

Bomberofdoom

27-04-2007, 17:25

Could be really really neat if programmers of FIRST could gather and help make a simulation for following years so they can input their robot's design and see if it works.
Possible?