Segways banned in Britain

[Mike]

http://digg.com/tech_news/Segways_Banned_From_British_Streets_Sidewalks_Road s

I kinda saw something like this coming sooner or later.

[thegathering]

Wow.

Americans have always been the ones called technophobes when it came to stem cell research and embryonic tissue research.

Talk about Luddites... :eek:

[Richard Wallace]

These sections of the FOX article really stand out:

In Britain, the Department for Transport has welcomed the scooter with a double whammy, invoking the Highway Act of 1835 to ban it from sidewalks and EU vehicle-certification rules to keep it off roads. ...

Andy Hughes, a spokesman, said that four officials attended a testing session, three of whom refused to ride it. The fourth traveled only 100 yards.

"The department seems reluctant to accept new technology, and there is a degree of [butt]-covering in the regulations," Hughes said.

[BuddyB309]

*shakes head* sad.... It seems that the Segway is always getting the boot from politicians. If they would only realize.....

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Only realize what? I know I don't share the same sentiment as the majority of ChiefDelphi users and the FIRST community, but I don't see the practicality of using a Segway daily. Walking is just as easy and consumes less space on the sidewalks. Now, if you have an injury or something of the sort that doesn't allow you to walk for very long then be my guest, ride a Segway. It's a cool invention and all.

Heh... Highway Act of 1835 was used to ban it. Weird.

[thegathering]

Does that mean that it's illegal for Britons to ride thise too?: http://www.shopnbc.com/media/products/V/V25277_200.jpg

[Cody Carey]

Only realize what? I know I don't share the same sentiment as the majority of ChiefDelphi users and the FIRST community, but I don't see the practicality of using a Segway daily. Walking is just as easy and consumes less space on the sidewalks. Now, if you have an injury or something of the sort that doesn't allow you to walk for very long then be my guest, ride a Segway. It's a cool invention and all.


Because it is easier and faster, the same reason people drive cars or ride bikes.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Digg has become pretty worthless lately. It attracts alot of scum from the internet community, half of which are unemployed 25 year old dorks who have nothing better to do than sit around eating cheetos and posting on game forums all day. The amount of ignorance contained in some of these comments is unbelievable. Segways are unsafe on sidewalks? Please.. the Segway is one of the safest vechicles in the world today. A 5 year old could stop a segway moving at full speed just by sticking out his hand... let's try to see him do that with a mountain bike.

[thegathering]

Only realize what? I know I don't share the same sentiment as the majority of ChiefDelphi users and the FIRST community, but I don't see the practicality of using a Segway daily. Walking is just as easy and consumes less space on the sidewalks. Now, if you have an injury or something of the sort that doesn't allow you to walk for very long then be my guest, ride a Segway. It's a cool invention and all.
It's 12 mph top speed is the same as you running a 5 minute mile pace wherever you're going. It's cleaner than cars and safer than bikes. The only drawback is it's 5k$ price tag (about the same as a dualsport dirtbike or a small motorcycle).

[MikeDubreuil]

A lot of people have been saying the Segway is safe. Can anyone link to any research that says a Segway is safe in public places?

[Elgin Clock]

A lot of people have been saying the Segway is safe. Can anyone link to any research that says a Segway is safe in public places?

Ride one and you will get your proof that it is safe.

Common sense holds true, and I think this post sums it up for anyone who owns, rides, or reads up on Segways and it's ingenuity.

.. the Segway is one of the safest vechicles in the world today. A 5 year old could stop a segway moving at full speed just by sticking out his hand... let's try to see him do that with a mountain bike.

[KenWittlief]

A lot of people have been saying the Segway is safe. Can anyone link to any research that says a Segway is safe in public places?

i think its reasonably obvious that a Segway is safer than a bike or electric scooter.

Ive fallen off bikes at 12-15mph and gotten very cut up and bruised. Half the danger is the bike itself, falling onto the bike / pedals / into the spokes...

and a bike can reach 40mph easily going down a hill, its can become unstable when braking, esp in dirt or wet pavement, and if you optimize the seat height to get the most power from your legs, the seat is too high when riding <5mph (difficult to plant your feet).

None of these things are an issue on a Segway. BTW I am amused by the number of people mocking the Segway on Digg, when (apparently) not one of them has ever ridden one. I believe the proper word to describe these people is ignorant (along with the three members of the British review panel who refused to ride it).

[Ashley Weed]

Although, I don't recommend trying to fall of your Segway on purpose. I have done several tasks that have landed me in that position, and it just so happens, it is really hard to flat out 'fall' off the Segway. The majority of the time I fall on a knee, or in an awkward position that is never "falling" like a bike tumble.

The worse that I have ever done in any crowded situation is ran over people's toes, and to tell you the truth - my meager few pounds and my P's weight is a lot less than the "Average American Man" you come by these day's so I highly doubt I've ever even bruised anyone in this situation.

Yes, the Segway has extreme benefit's over walking. Have you ever considered walking 6 miles to work? I bet in any such similar situation you would drive a vehicle, consume the fuel, the wear and tear on your vehicle, and the idle time in congestion of traffic sure adds up on gas.

You think getting hit by a bike hurts? How blatently obvious is a person on a Segway going down a street? Getting hit by a bike on a Segway sure makes the old bones ache.

I'll take my Glide every day to work, and save the $40+ bucks a month on my commute any day.......

[sanddrag]

a bike on a Segway Now THAT sounds dangerous :D

[Alan Anderson]

A lot of people have been saying the Segway is safe. Can anyone link to any research that says a Segway is safe in public places?
Yes. (http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14500/14567e.htm)

No incident or serious injury, nor any Segway/pedestrian collision or physical interference, was reported during either of the two phases of evaluation, where distances totalling more than 9,000 km were covered.

[artdutra04]

Only realize what? I know I don't share the same sentiment as the majority of ChiefDelphi users and the FIRST community, but I don't see the practicality of using a Segway daily. Walking is just as easy and consumes less space on the sidewalks. Now, if you have an injury or something of the sort that doesn't allow you to walk for very long then be my guest, ride a Segway. It's a cool invention and all.It all depends on how one lives. I use my Segway almost daily - and not just for fun. And with the large growth of paved bicycle (linear) trails in Connecticut, the commute options for Segway owners are constantly growing. My father has said when gas hits $4.00 a gallon, he'd purchase a Segway to commute to work. And after doing the math, he'd only have to commute to work on it 1/3 of the year for about 2 1/2 years and it would pay for itself in savings (gas, vehicle wear-and-tear, etc).

And Segways do not occupy that much additional space on a sidewalk than a pedrestrian. The only thing that's wider is about 3-4 inches on either side of the wheelbase, which are the wheels. And even then, whenever I'm on a sidewalk and a pedrestrian is coming, I'll move out of the way for them.

Heh... Highway Act of 1835 was used to ban it. Weird.Back in 1835, you could count on one hand how many steam-powered railroads there were in Britain. Cars, trains, planes, trolleys, subways, electricity, or even modern bicycles had either yet to be invented or widely adopted. Although there are some laws which may stand the trials of time and continue to be valid, laws which deal with technology need to keep pace with current needs and inventions.

To use a law from 1835 to ban Segways, is in my opinion, a lame attempt by the ignorant to ban something based on biased opinions. I can't stress enough how many people's opinions of Segways have changed for the better after they've rode one around for five to ten minutes.

[Pat Fairbank]

Yes. (http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14500/14567e.htm)No incident or serious injury, nor any Segway/pedestrian collision or physical interference, was reported during either of the two phases of evaluation, where distances totalling more than 9,000 km were covered.
And yet 3 years after that study was done, there is still no legislation here that either specifically allows or bans Segways on sidewalks and bike paths. Of course, I've never actually seen or heard of anyone else owning a Segway in Quebec, so I imagine it's not a terribly urgent issue for the government to address.

[Richard Wallace]

And yet 3 years after that study was done, there is still no legislation here that either specifically allows or bans Segways on sidewalks and bike paths. Of course, I've never actually seen or heard of anyone else owning a Segway in Quebec, so I imagine it's not a terribly urgent issue for the government to address.Actually the Canadian government has only had the results for a few months.In 2003, the Centre for Electric Vehicle Experimentation in Quebec (CEVEQ), in partnership with the Quebec Department of Transport (MTQ) and Transport Canada, carried out the first phase of a pilot project to evaluate the Segway™ HT Electronic Personal Assistive Mobility Device (EPAMD) and an electric scooter. ...

Following the tabling of the phase 1 report, MTQ and SAAQ indicated they were in favour of conducting a second phase of evaluation, under certain conditions, of the Segway EPAMD alone. The authorities did not consider the electric scooter safe enough for experimentation on public roadways. ...

Phase 2 of the project was, therefore, concerned only with Segway EPAMDs. The study was conducted during the summer and autumn of 2005 ...Give your MPs some time; they're only politicians, after all. And it is just possible ;) that one or two other Provinces may want to conduct their own research.

[Elgin Clock]

..and save the $40+ bucks a month on my commute any day.

gg.. I remember when my fuel efficient Neon (of the Dodge variety) used to get me everywhere I wanted to be for less than 40 bucks in gas a month.

Now it's like 25 bucks every 5-6 days or so.

And with the large growth of paved bicycle (linear) trails in Connecticut, the commute options for Segway owners are constantly growing.

You know Art, technically, the paths you want to use, such as the one from Cheshire to New Haven that I drive by almost every day have signs that say "no motor vehicles allowed".

Now, being on a hybrid propane gas/electric vehicle racing team in college has taught me the difference between a motor and an engine, and that apparently you can use your engine powered car/motorcyle on these paths but not your motor powered Segway if you take it to the letter of the law, and the definition as provided by Websters Dictionary of a motor and an engine.

But.. that's a whole other discussion now isn't it?? ;)

[sanddrag]

Now it's like 25 bucks every 5-6 days or so.Double the dollars or halve time for my case. :( Commuting is still cheaper than living closer to (or at) school though.

[Jon K.]

The worse that I have ever done in any crowded situation is ran over people's toes, and to tell you the truth - my meager few pounds and my P's weight is a lot less than the "Average American Man" you come by these day's so I highly doubt I've ever even bruised anyone in this situation.

At one Bash @ the Beach someone had their seg, and I purposefully had one of my friends run over my foot while riding this seway(with owner permission of course) and it didn't hurt me a bit. Someone stepping on my foot hurts more then the segway running over it did.

[Ashley Weed]

I really is a shame all of the places that are baning the Seg, or are on the fence. I am hoping with the gen 2's a wider range of the population will start to purchase them, and thus push politicians to take a stance on the situation. This may cause the naysayers to follow along with our evolving culture in the end.

[Courtneyb1023]

I love and appreciate the Segway and wouldn't mind having one someday. But, i agree with previous statements that it may not be practical as an everyday mode of transportation. If you are traveling a long distance, a car would be a better choice. If you are traveling a short distance, though better than driving, walking seems like the winner in my opinion. I guess with the percentage of overweight people in this country specifically, anything that gets us up and moving is a plus. Maybe that's a contributing factor to the British ban on the Segway, they are looking at the longterm health benefits of walking or biking over motorized device. maybe not..just an opinion.

Courtneyb

[Richard Wallace]

...I guess with the percentage of overweight people in this country specifically, anything that gets us up and moving is a plus.You may have hit on the real long-term market driver for Segways and any future similar personal mobility devices -- obesity. Yesterday I heard an NPR piece citing recent research that shows 25% of today's Americans are obese, compared with 7% in some reference year (20 years ago, I think).

Right now the Segway is seen by most people as toy for well-heeled technology enthusiasts. In a few years it may be seen as a mobility aid for fat people.

[BTW, at 72" height and 215 lb., I am clearly overweight and borderline obese by CDC standards (http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/defining.htm). So maybe I'll be one of the Segway-riding fat people myself.]

[KenWittlief]

I dont think an overweight person would give up his car and ride a bike, or walk 6 miles to work instead

but an overweight person might ride a Segway - I have to think that is better than riding in a car. If nothing else, at least you are standing up with your knees flexed, you are out in the air and the sun, and you are less likely to have a cream filled doughtnut in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other on your Segway.

[JaneYoung]

Right now the Segway is seen by most people as toy for well-heeled technology enthusiasts. In a few years it may be seen as a mobility aid for fat people.

I would really like to see the Segway catch on with people with limited mobility issues. My mother is aging and if she walks any distance, she can't catch her breath. She definitely does not need a wheel chair but a Segway would be perfect for her for family outings and shopping. I'm sure there are many people out there who could benefit from this. A lot of it is working through the mindset via exposure.

In Austin, we have mounted police in areas like the parks. Also we have bicycle police downtown, esp. on a famous 'party' street called 6th Street. Segways would work nicely for them and also for tourists/businesses in our downtown area. I also think they would be great on university campuses.

Edit: In Britain, the perfect place for Segways would be Hogwarts.
(sorry, I just could not resist...I did try.)

[Elgin Clock]

Edit: In Britain, the perfect place for Segways would be Hogwarts.
(sorry, I just could not resist...I did try.)

They would have to upgrade to the off road XT Segway models by now. IN every Harry Potter movie I have seen, the seem to add one more acre to the grounds of Hogwarts, and it's mostly wooded areas.

Plus,. the hallways around Hogwarts are definitely wide enough to accommodate the off road XT models as well.

[Ashley Weed]

I would really like to see the Segway catch on with people with limited mobility issues.

This has already been done. I would like to direct your attention to www.draft.org


As for all the naysayers of that would choose to walk over gliding, I still must point out the fact to you that I guarantee you would not walk 6+ miles one way each and every day for a commute. I do however know for a fact that it is very easy and tangible to complete this task on a Segway (and I often pass by traffic sitting with no where to go).

The rising obesity problem in America should not be a factor for the i2 directly, as I know that I can not have anyone of a drastic weight on my P. The Segway is now designed to allow heavier individuals than the prior Gen1, however, it still can not transport severely overweight individuals and be efficient at it's purpose.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

As for all the naysayers of that would choose to walk over gliding, I still must point out the fact to you that I guarantee you would not walk 6+ miles one way each and every day for a commute. I do however know for a fact that it is very easy and tangible to complete this task on a Segway (and I often pass by traffic sitting with no where to go).


If I had to travel 6 miles to work everyday, I would use a Segway rather than walk. There's no possible way for me to walk 6 miles with the state my knees are in from various football injuries. What I meant by my earlier post was that if I had the choice to walk while attending say, college, I would choose that over riding a Segway anyday. Especially if I lived on campus. Now work for me is about 6 miles. I could easily do that on a bike in 30 minutes and it's relatively flat road. Now I don't do that because (1.) I don't currently own a bike and (2.) I am a huge procrastinator and wake up later.

Now I'm going to make my point that has nothing to do with what I just previously stated. I would support a bill that would ban Segway riding in public areas UNLESS that person was handicapped in one way or another that prevents them from walking and whatnot. Now I think that that is the reason the Segway was created, or at least it should have been.

[MikeDubreuil]

I took a look at the Canadian research; it’s interesting but pretty incomplete. They claim the Segway is safe to operate which many of you indicate. To Elgin’s point- Yes I have ridden a Segway and think it is fun and safe, for private use.

The Canadian research did admit that the Segway may not be appropriate for use of sidewalks with pedestrians. “apart from its possible nuisance value on sidewalks, its use on urban walkways should be allowed.”

It’s important to note the distinction this paper made between walkways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkway)and sidewalks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk). Walkways are usually 10 feet or more wide and sidewalks could be 4 feet or fewer in width. This paper is implying that the Segway may not be safe on densely packed pedestrian sidewalks. This is of course the reason why bicycles are not allowed on city sidewalks. (Realize I’m a Boston resident and all perspective I have on cities will be in reference to Boston)

The Canadian research suggests that the Segway is about as safe to pedestrians as bicycles. I find bicycle traffic in Boston to be very dangerous. In general, most of Boston does not have space on the side of the road reserved for bicycle traffic. Many streets in Boston are incredibly narrow and never designed for vehicle traffic. I feel very nervous when I’m driving up to a bicycle rider in my Jeep. There’s just not enough room on the street! Segway riders would just complicate the traffic situation on Boston city streets.

My guess the reason bicycles are still allowed in the city was because they were here first. For that matter horse and carriages are still allowed downtown. My guess is that Britain city planners took those considerations into effect before making their decision.

A Segway would be great to ride in Cambridge, Mass. In Cambridge traffic designers have allowed for enough space for bicycle riders and have explicitly painted a travel lane on the road. That’s a win situation for everyone, pedestrians feel safe and vehicles can still pass. It’s interesting to note that when the Segway was first being introduced there was buzz about how the new invention would change city planning. In hindsight, I think without appropriate city planning a Segway would be doomed.

People have said that people with disabilities should use Segways for transportation. If I were disabled I would want to use a Segway, the chance to break free from the disability would be awesome. Unfortunately as an engineer I think it’s an awful idea for people with walking disabilities to use the Segway. The bottom line: the Segway has never been approved for medical use. That’s hugely important because that means the people behind Segway don’t think it would pass the FDA tests. That’s an indicator that the engineers don’t believe the Segway is as reliable or safe as some fans would like to think.

[Ashley Weed]

People have said that people with disabilities should use Segways for transportation. If I were disabled I would want to use a Segway, the chance to break free from the disability would be awesome. Unfortunately as an engineer I think it’s an awful idea for people with walking disabilities to use the Segway. The bottom line: the Segway has never been approved for medical use. That’s hugely important because that means the people behind Segway don’t think it would pass the FDA tests. That’s an indicator that the engineers don’t believe the Segway is as reliable or safe as some fans would like to think.


Neither the cane nor the walker, or other such assistive devices have met FDA approval either. It is not that the Segway did not meet FDA tests, it is that LLC chose to not market the Segway to the FDA due to the technologies and the cross marketing it would of caused with the iBot.

[Alan Anderson]

...This paper is implying that the Segway may not be safe on densely packed pedestrian sidewalks...The Canadian research suggests that the Segway is about as safe to pedestrians as bicycles.
The study neither implies nor suggests anything of the sort. The issue with pedestrians and sidewalks is one of nuisance, not safety. It's quite clear that the only real problem is acceptance by people not familiar with how Segways perform.

That's the problem in the British decision as well, with the additional annoying fact that most of the people making that decision are intentionally remaining ignorant of the subject by refusing to experience it.

[Pat Fairbank]

The study neither implies nor suggests anything of the sort. The issue with pedestrians and sidewalks is one of nuisance, not safety. It's quite clear that the only real problem is acceptance by people not familiar with how Segways perform.
It should be mentioned that some of the sidewalks around here in Quebec where the study was performed are ridiculously narrow - 3 feet across or less. When pedestrians see you barreling down the narrow sidewalk on a Segway, they tend to step off the sidewalk to let you pass, which would surely qualify as a nuisance.

[Stu Bloom]

The study neither implies nor suggests anything of the sort. The issue with pedestrians and sidewalks is one of nuisance, not safety. It's quite clear that the only real problem is acceptance by people not familiar with how Segways perform.

That's the problem in the British decision as well, with the additional annoying fact that most of the people making that decision are intentionally remaining ignorant of the subject by refusing to experience it.
It should be mentioned that some of the sidewalks around here in Quebec where the study was performed are ridiculously narrow - 3 feet across or less. When pedestrians see you barreling down the narrow sidewalk on a Segway, they tend to step off the sidewalk to let you pass, which would surely qualify as a nuisance.
Isn't that what Alan said ??

[Alan Anderson]

...When pedestrians see you barreling down the narrow sidewalk on a Segway, they tend to step off the sidewalk to let you pass,...
A pedestrian who understands Segways would instead see you gliding down the sidewalk, occupying no more width than a typical person. The extra nuisance factor is mostly attributable to unfamiliarity.

A three-foot-wide sidewalk is narrow enough that two people walking cannot comfortably pass without one stepping off. Putting one -- or both -- on a Segway doesn't change the situation substantially.

[MikeDubreuil]

I think this one one of those issues where people pick a final result and find information to substantiate their argument. For me, my final result is to have people realize that Segway LLC has a long way to go before people are convinced that cities should be redesigned for them. I do like the Segway.

With that being said, Ashley you're half right and half wrong (and me too). We really have no way of knowing why the LLC chose not to seek FDA approval (unless you have insiders ;).) I'm not convinced that the Segway and iBot would be competing products. The Segway is usable by people who for the most part have few health problems. The iBot is meant for anyone who has trouble getting around but can accommodate severely handicapped users. I don't like how the person (from the website you provided) who has no legs rides the Segway with a seat. The Segway has one failure mode- you will hit the ground. The iBot was designed so with more grace (safety) than that.

I think we are getting into semantics when we start questioning the difference between nuisance and unsafe. You could even argue that nuisances become safety hazards. I think the net reaction is negative. The simplest solution would be to widen the sidewalk- problem solved. That's not some time. This is why in my previous post I mentioned the Segway would need to have cities change their infrastructure or face an uncertain future.

I'm sure all of you who own Segways would hop off the sidewalk and let an old lady pass. You're not who these laws are designed for.

[Richard Wallace]

...The Segway has one failure mode- you will hit the ground. The iBot was designed so with more grace (safety) than that...Actually the Segway and iBot control and motor systems are very similar (http://segway.com/personal-transporter/how_it_works.html).The brains and brawn are made up of two identical and redundant sets of microprocessor-based electronic controller circuit boards, batteries and motor windings that operate together and share the load of driving the wheels. The Segway PT has a number of additional onboard microprocessors. The vehicle requires this much brain power because it needs to quickly make precise adjustments to keep from falling over. If one controller board (or it’s associated battery, motor windings or wiring) breaks down, the other set will take over all functions so that the system can notify the rider of a failure and shut down gracefully.

I have no insider ;) . However, it has been rumored that Dean granted J&J exclusive rights to medical applications of his balancing propulsion technology in return for their support of the iBot development -- this development made much of the same core technology and some of the same components available for the subsequent Segway development.

[Stu Bloom]

Actually the Segway and iBot control and motor systems are very similar (http://segway.com/personal-transporter/how_it_works.html).

I have no insider ;) . However, it has been rumored that Dean granted J&J exclusive rights to medical applications of his balancing propulsion technology in return for their support of the iBot development -- this development made much of the same core technology and some of the same components available for the subsequent Segway development.I'm not familiar with the details of any "deal" that was made, but it is true that J&J owns the exclusive rights to medical applications of the balancing technology that both the i-bot and Segway share. THAT is why the Segway will never be marketed as a "medical" mobility assistive device. In addition, the increased expense (in all phases of a product's life cycle) required to obtain FDA approval would drive the price of Segways much higher than they already are.

Most state legislatures use the terminology "Electric Personal Assistive Mobility Device" (EPAMD) when describing the Segway, and specifically granting the Segway all the rights and responsibilities of a pedestrian. Most also provide for individual municipallities to address local Segway use via local ordinances.

[Alan Anderson]

...For me, my final result is to have people realize that Segway LLC has a long way to go before people are convinced that cities should be redesigned for them.
That has very little to do with Segways themselves, and much to do with the people who are not convinced. It has even more to do with the people who have already decided against the idea without more than a glance and a snap decision.
I think we are getting into semantics when we start questioning the difference between nuisance and unsafe.
There's no question about it -- it is a semantic difference. What I did was point out the difference when you interpreted the Canadian report as if they were the same idea.

[Michael Hill]

Good, they should be off the streets....and sidewalks. They're too big to be riding around and are dangerous to pedestrians. Honestly, they get pretty annoying at events. And they definitely should be kept off the roads. The Brits got something right! I know I'm definitely going against the grain posting it on these boards (posting a message not bowing down to Dean Kamen), but I know I am not alone. Off these boards, a lot of people definitely don't bow down to him. I'm not saying what he's done for the youth and getting them involved in engineering is bad, it's quite a good thing, and I do applaud him for that. It's just I don't see the usefulness of some of this invention. I mean, ya, it's cool, it balances and has 2 wheels. Well...I can balance a bike, a bike has 2 wheels, and the battery doesn't die.

[KenWittlief]

They're too big to be riding around and are dangerous to pedestrians...

can you back this statement up with any references? How many pedestrians have been injured by Segway riders?

The control that is designed into the Segway makes it very easy to ride on a sidewalk with pedestrians. You can ride at the same speed as people are walking, without losing any stability (unlike a bike or scooter). If the handlebar bumps someone the Segway is tipped backwards and it stops by itself

and if you run over someones foot its no big deal (unlike a bike with 120psi tires).

Personal accountablity is a part of this. If you fly down a crowded sideway at 12mph someone could get hurt, but the same applies to a person running at 12mph, or someone on a bike. Common sense is required.

I dont see any danger to pedistratrians from responsible use of a Segway on a sidewalk.

You could argue that its should be banned because of the risk from unresponsible users, but I can walk into any department store and take things off the shelf at random, and hurt someone with them if I am reckless and unresponsible in my actions. We dont ban products out of fear of what someone might do with it.

[Stu Bloom]

I think this one one of those issues where people pick a final result and find information to substantiate their argument. For me, my final result is to have people realize that Segway LLC has a long way to go before people are convinced that cities should be redesigned for them. I do like the Segway.

With that being said, Ashley you're half right and half wrong (and me too). We really have no way of knowing why the LLC chose not to seek FDA approval (unless you have insiders ;).) I'm not convinced that the Segway and iBot would be competing products. The Segway is usable by people who for the most part have few health problems. The iBot is meant for anyone who has trouble getting around but can accommodate severely handicapped users. I don't like how the person (from the website you provided) who has no legs rides the Segway with a seat. The Segway has one failure mode- you will hit the ground. The iBot was designed so with more grace (safety) than that.

I think we are getting into semantics when we start questioning the difference between nuisance and unsafe. You could even argue that nuisances become safety hazards. I think the net reaction is negative. The simplest solution would be to widen the sidewalk- problem solved. That's not some time. This is why in my previous post I mentioned the Segway would need to have cities change their infrastructure or face an uncertain future.

I'm sure all of you who own Segways would hop off the sidewalk and let an old lady pass. You're not who these laws are designed for.Mike ... WHO ARE YOU ?? And what gives you the right to pass judgement like this??

The "person who has no legs" on the DRAFT website (http://www.draft.org/draft3/) is Leonard Timm. He and Jerry Kerr (a C-4 quadriplegic) founded the DRAFT organization (Disability Rights Advocates For Technology) in 2004. Leonard lost his legs in a boating accident and has regained much of his lost mobility thru the use of the Segway. You should spend some time on the DRAFT website (and I am certain there are many other resources with similar information) and learn a little about how the Segway is improving the quality of life for so many. Here's a quote from an article posted on their website: Kerr and friend, Leonard Timm, a double amputee who uses a modified Segway, co-founded Disability Rights Advocates for Technology (DRAFT), an organization dedicated to the promotion of universal design and new technology for people with disabilities. DRAFT's poster "child" is the Segway.

"We have this debate with people in our organization all the time about whether or not they should display a handicap sticker," Kerr explained. "Younger users [see their disabilities disappear] when they get on the Segway; for the first time in their life, they aren't disabled; and they don't want to put a handicap sticker on their Segway to remind people." I personally know very many segway owners who are handicapped in some way, and in most cases their Segways have restored a level of mobility and dignity that they could not have imagined prior to its introduction.

Of course there are some added risks for a disabled person on a Segway, but there are risks in all aspects of life. This is a decision they have to make for themselves, but I would say the benefits for these people far outweigh the risks.
...The Segway has one failure mode- you will hit the ground. The iBot was designed so with more grace (safety) than that...How do you know that? I am less familiar with the ibot than the Segway, but the Segway has many failure modes, AND MANY safety systems in place to warn and protect the rider. In what ways specifically was the ibot designed with "more grace (safety) than that"?
... I'm sure all of you who own Segways would hop off the sidewalk and let an old lady pass. You're not who these laws are designed for.If "these laws" are not designed for Segway owners then who are they "designed for" ??

[KenWittlief]

How do you know that? I am less familiar with the ibot than the Segway, but the Segway has many failure modes, AND MANY safety systems in place to warn and protect the rider. In what ways specifically was the ibot designed with "more grace (safety) than that"?

the IBOT can place four wheels in contact with the ground when it senses something is outside its operational parameters, and it can stop in a stable upright orientation. When its up on two wheels it can drop down on four when it senses it needs to.

The Segway can not do that. There are no training wheels or kickstands on both sides that automatically deploy to keep the Segway upright if its control system fails.

There are modes in which a Segway can become unstable and fall (getting airborne for one). If you cant step off it and land on your feet, you are in danger of injury.

[Stu Bloom]

the IBOT can place four wheels in contact with the ground when it senses something is outside its operational parameters, and it can stop in a stable upright orientation. When its up on two wheels it can drop down on four when it senses it needs to.

The Segway can not do that. There are no training wheels or kickstands on both sides that automatically deploy to keep the Segway upright if its control system fails.

There are modes in which a Segway can become unstable and fall (getting airborne for one). If you cant step off it and land on your feet, you are in danger of injury.Only if the ibot has enough time to react (which I doubt it could if it was also "airborne"). Believe me, I know all too well about potential Segway instability. My experiences with "pushing the envelope" on my "magic carpet" are well documented elsewhere :o :p :ahh: .

500 posts!! I was hoping my 500th would be a bit more substantial ... oh well ...

[KenWittlief]

Only if the ibot has enough time to react (which I doubt it could if it was also "airborne").

well yeah, but at least the IBOT has a mode in which it is inheriently stable, the Segway doesnt.

Im sure that someone could rig up a Segway with 'landing gear' that can be deployed by the rider at the push of a button, but the stock Segway is not designed for that type of use.

I dont see any problem with a disabled person using a Segway if they choose to assume the risk. If someone puts their grandmother one on, and she goes head over heals down the escalator in the mall, guess who gets sued? Segway LLC!

[Kims Robot]

The Segway can not do that. There are no training wheels or kickstands on both sides that automatically deploy to keep the Segway upright if its control system fails.
Just as an interesting note, the other day at a BSO concert, I saw an old guy on a segway that had some odd training wheel type contraptions. It looked like the effect of building in two extra wheels so that the segway didnt have to self balance (it kills the technology a little, and Im sure immobilizes the capabilities a bit, but I dont think I would have wanted to see this teetering old guy on a self balancing segway!).

Now what I dont get is that (by doing a quick google search), nearly 21,000 people were KILLED in car accidents, and another 3,000 in motorcycle accidents in 2000. 5,000 pedestrians were killed by cars in the same year! Yet we dont ban cars or motorcycles... How many people have you heard killed by segways? We simply make laws to register & insure your vehicles... why cant the segway fall in the same category? It seems silly to ban something that most of us know very little about, and very little research has been done & published.

[KenWittlief]

Just as an interesting note, the other day at a BSO concert, I saw an old guy on a segway that had some odd training wheel type contraptions.

Are you sure it was a real Segway? There are segway knockoffs (from china I think) that dont balance, they have castors like you described. They sell for around $400.

Im pretty sure if you put castors on a Segway, that were in contact with the ground all the time, it would be un-usable. You have to lean forward to make a real Segway go.

http://cgi.ebay.com/X-Treme-XT-300-Electric-City-Scooter-Not-Segway_W0QQitemZ180021387970QQihZ008QQcategoryZ473 51QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[artdutra04]

Good, they should be off the streets....and sidewalks. They're too big to be riding around and are dangerous to pedestrians. Honestly, they get pretty annoying at events. And they definitely should be kept off the roads. The Brits got something right! I know I'm definitely going against the grain posting it on these boards (posting a message not bowing down to Dean Kamen), but I know I am not alone. Off these boards, a lot of people definitely don't bow down to him. I'm not saying what he's done for the youth and getting them involved in engineering is bad, it's quite a good thing, and I do applaud him for that. It's just I don't see the usefulness of some of this invention. I mean, ya, it's cool, it balances and has 2 wheels. Well...I can balance a bike, a bike has 2 wheels, and the battery doesn't die.I'm sorry, but I'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. :)

The way I see having a Segway right now is like having a car in 1910. You're that one person in the entire city who has a Segway, just like the one person in your city that had a car back in 1910. Your Segway is heralded as a miracle in urban planning, oil independence, and environmentally friendly transportation, just as the car was heralded as a miracle in transportation (especially for the huge problem back then of horse excrement in the streets).

However, by having a Segway all kinds of unnecessary biased opinions and fears are had toward you, in the same way that people were petrified of having cars in roads in 1910. (You can't have cars in the road - they'll scare the people and horses and get in the way of the trolley!)

Now look where we are. Within a few decades of the cars initially coming out, we started building our first highways and byways, and we started designing cities around cars. It's time for a change. Every century brings a new marvel in transportation. In the 19th century it was railroads. In the 20th century it was automobiles and airplanes. In the 21st century, it may likely be Segways.

This is not to say we will completely abandon our older modes of transportation: the United States still has the largest railroad network in the world, and cars and airplanes aren't going to the Smithsonian anytime soon. All this means is life is changing, and we must keep pace, or be left behind.

Why ban them? I would much rather have restrictions like a 6 mph speed limit on sidewalks, or 3 mph speed limit in heavy pedestrian areas, than outright banning. Outright banning accomplishes nothing except angering people who weren't doing anything wrong in the first place. If I lived in Britain, I would continue to commute using my Segway in a responsible manner as an act of civil disobedience.


Also to note: almost everyone I've met has been very welcoming towards the Segway - and even those who are cautious always change their mind after riding one. I've even rode my Segway into the high school where our robotics team meets, and met in person with the principal there. He did not yell at me or chide me for "terrorizing pedrestrians", but rather he was quite intriguied by the Segway, and stated how I'd never be late to class again if I went there. He had no problems with me gliding through the hallways full of people, and the all the other people in the hallways didn't seem to mind either.

The only problem (it wasn't a problem to me ;)) was that all the girls chasing after me caused more distress to other people in the hallway than I did on my Segway. Who would have thought that a Segway is a huge chick magnet? :D

[Michael Hill]

I personally don't believe that everyone using a segway in pedestrian areas realistic within the next, at least, 60 years. Think about it, it's busy enough walking around a heavily pedestrian area (think New York City, Chicago, Tokyo, etc.) It's hard enough to walk. The amount of ground area a human takes up is far less than what a segway will require (about 2-3 times the ground area of a pedestrian). As time goes by, say 60 years or so (when I say that the price would go down and more people would want a Segway). The population will have increased dramatically (no doubt as a result of better medical care, etc., but that's beside the point). What I'm getting at is that there will be no room in crowded pedestrian areas for people to walk, let alone ride a Segway.

[KenWittlief]

I personally don't believe that everyone using a segway in pedestrian areas realistic within the next, at least, 60 years. ....

you would have to do a little experimentation and research to see if your assumtions hold true.

1. A Segway can go faster than 3mph if the space is open. This means, instead of having everyone walking 3mph from A to B, once they hit an area that is opened up a little they can speed up. That means they would be spread out more, and the result is the sidewalk would not be as congested.

2. A Segway gives you more range. If you can ride, and ride up to 12mph in an open space, then instead of staying within a 1 or 2 block area for lunch, you could go 6 or 8 blocks, and still get back within your lunch hour. This means in areas that are dense and congested now during lunch (or rush) hour, the people would be spread out over a wider part of the neighborhood - they would have more options.

3. regarding floor space, I dont think the smaller version of the Segway takes up 3 times as much space as a person walking - maybe the bigger ones do?

Its difficult to do a realistic assesment just in your head. Studies would have to be done on real city streets, to see what the effect is, and what the end result would be.

[JaneYoung]

Austin is not congested like New York or Tokyo, though it does have its moments. We have spent time, energy, and money creating bike lanes in Austin. They are not everywhere but where they are, they work. We have a strong cyclist community here. We have also made our city more accessible for the wheelchair community over the last 15 years. It would take time, energy, research, and money to create a Segway community but it is doable, using the guidelines we already have with our bikes and wheelchairs. The few Segways I have seen in the downtown area use the sidewalks and everyone gets along just fine.

[MikeDubreuil]

Mike ... WHO ARE YOU ?? And what gives you the right to pass judgement like this??...
If "these laws" are not designed for Segway owners then who are they "designed for" ??

I probably could have researched his name and found a more sensitive way to characterize his disabilities. My apologies. I have a great respect for people with severe disability because I don't know what I would do if I were them. Probably live life just like them. I might even want to use the Segway...

My stance on the issue doesn't change. It is not safe for him to ride a Segway. That doesn't mean I think he shouldn't. He is a person and he has every right to risk his personal safety. It's not the best idea to sky dive but some people find it fun. Everyone has the right to take whatever risk they want. As an engineer I can't condone his actions. As Ken has said, the failure mode in the Segway has the operator hitting the pavement. On an iBot the failure mode is the chair attempts to land safely on all four wheels (this is a guess.)

As for the laws and to whom they apply... I think the Chief Delphi community is a group of great citizens. It would probably be fairly obvious to everyone that one shouldn't murder someone else. Some people need laws to tell them that. Thats who the Segway laws will be written for. Someone who only cares about themselves and will turn the sidewalk into their personal expressway. That's why Segways won't be allowed on sidewalks.

[i_am_Doug]

[BTW, at 72" height and 215 lb., I am clearly overweight and borderline obese by CDC standards (http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/defining.htm). So maybe I'll be one of the Segway-riding fat people myself.]

Im 16 and it says Im overweight...

Hmm I think the seg would be really great to ride to school, work ..I personally havent tryed one but i wanna.


1. A Segway can go faster than 3mph if the space is open. This means, instead of having everyone walking 3mph from A to B, once they hit an area that is opened up a little they can speed up. That means they would be spread out more, and the result is the sidewalk would not be as congested.

2. A Segway gives you more range. If you can ride, and ride up to 12mph in an open space, then instead of staying within a 1 or 2 block area for lunch, you could go 6 or 8 blocks, and still get back within your lunch hour. This means in areas that are dense and congested now during lunch (or rush) hour, the people would be spread out over a wider part of the neighborhood - they would have more options.

3. regarding floor space, I dont think the smaller version of the Segway takes up 3 times as much space as a person walking - maybe the bigger ones do?
Great point....

[Ashley Weed]

"We have this debate with people in our organization all the time about whether or not they should display a handicap sticker," Kerr explained. "Younger users [see their disabilities disappear] when they get on the Segway; for the first time in their life, they aren't disabled; and they don't want to put a handicap sticker on their Segway to remind people."

More individuals should pay closer attention to that quote. Not even specifically for the Segway, but for the way that all individuals are adapting technology in their differently-abled lives.

Everyone needs to understand that the Segway is not a one shot deal on a system shutdown or failure. There are several warnings in place for all types of situations you may come across that will allow the most non-able person to properly dismount. One of the greatest joys I have is taking my Segway home and allowing my 80+ year old Uncle go for glides after I strap his oxygen tank to the control shaft. He starts to glow like he's a kid again.

[Stu Bloom]

Im 16 and it says Im overweight...

Hmm I think the seg would be really great to ride to school, work ..I personally havent tryed one but i wanna.


Great point....Doug, the thing I love the most about my Segway is the look on people's faces when they try it ...

I would be happy to let you try mine whenever there is an opportunity to do so. You can look for me at the FIRST Championships, or any of the regionals I attend. Unfortunately with you in Oregon and me in Indiana, I don't know if we will be attending any of the same events. Most Segway owners I know are glad to give demos, especially to an interested FIRST Robotics team member ...

Next time you see one, ASK !! :)

[i_am_Doug]

Next time you see one, ASK !! :)
Pssh next time I will..

At the school i goto now here in independence the principle rides one around :yikes:/:D

[Denman]

Well, i'm disappointed, personally, i have never seen a segway in britain (only at new york regional in fact) and even i could ride that after about 5 minutes practise.
to be honest, there are a lot of pointless laws like that, and it just takes some interpretation, for example, theoretically if you have a taxi, you have to keep a bale of hay for the horse in the boot (trunk) of the taxi for it....

[Alexa Stott]

Im sure that someone could rig up a Segway with 'landing gear' that can be deployed by the rider at the push of a button, but the stock Segway is not designed for that type of use.

But there are still other ways to stop on a dime. I was in the Outer Banks, North Carolina recently and I went on a Segway tour, which required everyone to participate in a training course before the actual tour. We had to cross the main road to get from the shop to the place we'd be touring, so our instructor taught us this little emergency stop thing.

All one has to do to stop the Segway on a dime is just push your arms straight out and lean back. I've stopped perfectly on a dime while going ~8 mph. The Segway also automatically shuts down if you're going too fast, either backwards or forwards.

[KenWittlief]

...Most Segway owners I know are glad to give demos, especially to an interested FIRST Robotics team member ...

Next time you see one, ASK !! :)

I think the first time I saw a Segway up close was at the last Championship held at Epcot. A couple disney people were riding them around the FIRST area, and it got to the point where they pre-emptively started telling people "before you ask, No, I cant let you try it".

But from what Ive seen, most private owners are not like that. So Im guessing, if you see a cop or mailman on a Segway...... No!

[KenWittlief]

But there are still other ways to stop on a dime. ....

well, yeah, the Segway is great if its working perfectly, and is being used as it was intended to be used.

The concern expressed in this thread over using the Segway as a transport system for the disabled is what happens when something goes wrong - either the rider does something the segway was not designed to handle, or the segway malfunctions (for example, the battery goes open circuit while you are riding at 12mph?).

The worse case failure mode on a Segway results in a rider kissing pavement. Most people in average health and good physical condition could jump off and land on their feet. But if you are strapped in a chair that has been tiewrapped onto the Segway... it was not designed for that type of usage.

[Alan Anderson]

The concern expressed in this thread over using the Segway as a transport system for the disabled is what happens when something goes wrong - either the rider does something the segway was not designed to handle, or the segway malfunctions (for example, the battery goes open circuit while you are riding at 12mph?).
If you're going to base your worries on operator stupidity (e.g. running into a wall) or improbable mechanical failures, there is no way to satisfy you.

[KenWittlief]

If you're going to base your worries on operator stupidity (e.g. running into a wall) or improbable mechanical failures, there is no way to satisfy you.

well, yeah there is: Ibot (which is how this side thread all got started)

it may sound simplistic, but engineers design systems with specific requirements, and specific usage in mind. The Ibot was designed so that you dont have to jump off it when something go wrong.

The Segway was designed for people with normal (average) physical abilities.

[Ashley Weed]

well, yeah there is: Ibot (which is how this side thread all got started)

it may sound simplistic, but engineers design systems with specific requirements, and specific usage in mind. The Ibot was designed so that you dont have to jump off it when something go wrong.

The Segway was designed for people with normal (average) physical abilities.


Yes, very true system usage can be expanded on through the most elaborate rules developed in HCI over the years in the case of the Segway. However, in who's eyes is the determining factor who is "normal" or fit enough for the Seg?

On a first glance, or when I am on my Seg I may fit your stereotype of "normal". However, if you spent a day with me, you would quickly come to realize I too would fall into these engineers specified requirements.

[KenWittlief]

Yes, very true system usage can be expanded on through the most elaborate rules developed in HCI over the years in the case of the Segway. However, in who's eyes is the determining factor who is "normal" or fit enough for the Seg?
....

the engineers who designed it should of had some input into the users manual. That two page speel that is in every users manual now-adays: not intended for: children, animals, persons over 250 lbs... do not use in the water or near cliffs.....

the users manual should spell out who the system was designed for.

[Richard Wallace]

the engineers who designed it should of had some input into the users manual. That two page speel that is in every users manual now-adays: not intended for: children, animals, persons over 250 lbs... do not use in the water or near cliffs.....

the users manual should spell out who the system was designed for.Link (http://segway.com/support/docs/ReferenceManual.pdf) to the user's manual. As Ken says, there are warnings in several places. See p. 8 for warnings about operating limits including weight. Specified payload weight range (per Table 2 on p. 5) is at least 100 lb. and not to exceed 260 lb.

[Ashley Weed]

Link (http://segway.com/support/docs/ReferenceManual.pdf) to the user's manual. As Ken says, there are warnings in several places. See p. 8 for warnings about operating limits including weight. Specified payload weight range (per Table 2 on p. 5) is at least 100 lb. and not to exceed 260 lb.


However, who determines what an "able bodied" individual is, compared to a "non-able bodied" individual. I don't think any engineer would ever be capable of doing that.

As a Segway owner, I was well aware of the owner manual and the user restrictions. I sure would like to know what weighing under 100 lbs. has to do with the operations of the machine though, as I've never seen it affect its "sensitivity" of the sensors.

[KenWittlief]

As a Segway owner, I was well aware of the owner manual and the user restrictions. I sure would like to know what weighing under 100 lbs. has to do with the operations of the machine though, as I've never seen it affect its "sensitivity" of the sensors.

OK, that is a good example of a design criteria that the engineers would know about, but you may never encounter in your lifetime using the machine.

The device requires the rider be able to shift their weight fore and aft to control the speed. Based on the physics involved (the weight of the machine with its full rated payload, speed, hills, surface friction, battery charge, temp (affects motor and battery performance)) a person under 100 lbs may not be able to lean back far enough to make a segway stop under worse case situations (ie, going down a 30° incline? with 50 lb of books in a carrying case, with a 50mph tailwind....)

The engineers must design a system for the worst case scenario, and spell out limitations in the users manual. Most people dont think of things this way - that is why automobiles started being mass produced in the early 1900's but a simple thing like seatbelts were not required until the mid 1960's. No one wants to consider what happens in the worst case.

Tens of thousands of people died, who could have been saved if they wore seatbelts from the early 1900's, until just recently when most states passed laws requiring they be worn. Tens of thousands died from the 60s to the 90s, sitting on their seat belts. Why? because its human nature to reject bitter reality and to think "that doenst apply to me, thats for someone else".

I suppose Segway could create a user manual table that lists height, weight, payload limits, top speed, steepness of hills, windspeed, stopping distance.... and let people choose to ride if they stay within the correct part of a six dimensional graph, for example, if they only weigh 70 lbs but will never carry anything with them on the segway, or will never go up or down hills... but that would become so confusing it would be worthless.

[KcTechTeacher]

All Segways have been recalled because of a software design glitch. Ouch...

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/ZDM/story?id=2434927

[mtaman02]

I had the chance of riding the segway briefly in 2003 @ the NYC Regionals and I must say as a person who likes technology but gets scared of things running themselves (practically anyway). I in my own opinion believe that the Segway is safe. If the segway can stand up by itself w/o no help or anything to lean on for it to remain standing then it is safe by me. It's very easy to handle and operate. By GB banning this cool invention is upsetting. I just can't come up with a legitimate reason to ban something that was designed for safety all around.

As far as the Horizontally challenged people using the segway - well I'll stay neutral b/c there is too many Pros and Cons to it. What I will say is whatever can help them get from point A to point B efficiently is fine by me.

As far as the Recall is concerned eh. Nobody is perfect; espicially programmers. I don't mind the little stuff breaking, its when the much bigger stuff breaks that gets me worried and questions the company in which the product comes from.

Once again I see the segway as a much safer alternative when it comes to driving to work or riding a bike during some leisure time. I hope to own one pretty soon. :]

[JVGazeley]

That'd be why the only Segways I've seen have been photos and 1 at the NYC Regional then...

[krieger]

think a little bit outside the box here, it probably not the apparent "danger" from a segway but the money they get- you pay a congestion charge to sit in ken livingston's traffic jams every day (8 pounds i believe) and the taxes from the gas you use. while they do waive the congestion charge for hybrids- they still use gas and the cars are so overpriced anyways that the taxes from them cover it. anyone who reads this should look up the peel p50: 106mpg from a 49cc moped engine, it has to pay congestion charge while a lexus hybrid suv at ~30mpg doesnt.

[Pat Fairbank]

On this topic, I found out the hard way a couple of months ago that Segway use is banned on streets and sidewalks in the province of Ontario.

I was gliding home from work one afternoon (a 2.3 km trip) when a squad car pulled across three lanes of traffic and stopped next to me on the wrong side of the road, and the police officer inside asked me to stop and dismount my Segway. After spending ten minutes on the radio confirming things with her dispatcher, she informed me that it is illegal to ride a Segway on public property in Ontario, unless you have a disability, or are an on-duty police officer or postal delivery worker participating in a particular study. The officer let me go with a warning, but said that if I was stopped again my Segway would be impounded and I would be subject to a fine ranging from $250 to $2500! :ahh:

So since then I've been polluting the environment and contributing to traffic by taking my car to work (or sometimes I just walk, if time and the weather permit).

[Grogs]

finally someone with half a brain, segways are nothing but a dangerous nuisance

[basicxman]

youre right, this was coming to them but i find this an outrage!!!