USB Joystick adapter is here!

[Mike Copioli]

A device that converts the operator interface 15pin joystick ports, into a USB host, now exists. The device is called USB_chicklet. Check it out at www.crosstheroadelectronics.com. Also please provide feedback about our new website.

[Greg Marra]

A device that converts the operator interface 15pin joystick ports, into a USB host, now exists. The device is called USB_chicklet. Check it out at www.crosstheroadelectronics.com. Also please provide feedback about our new website.

Does it comply with the rules regarding no external power sources? I know a team last year developed a PlayStation 2 converter that powered its PIC off the LED feeds on the OI, but does this? There are no up-close photos or detailed descriptions...

[Alan Anderson]

Does it comply with the rules regarding no external power sources? I know a team last year developed a PlayStation 2 converter that powered its PIC off the LED feeds on the OI, but does this? There are no up-close photos or detailed descriptions...
There is an up-close photo. It's just scaled down on the page. Viewing it at full size clearly shows a power input jack at the corner.

I won't guess about whether or not the OI alone can provide enough power to run a typical USB joystick along with the adapter.

[Rich Kressly]

I think I just might go out on a limb and openly praise a Copioli ;)
Dude, this rocks ... and I'm sure if it is being produced by Mike and Omar that they are doing what it takes to make sure it's FIRST legal.

[Greg Needel]

Does it comply with the rules regarding no external power sources? I know a team last year developed a PlayStation 2 converter that powered its PIC off the LED feeds on the OI, but does this? There are no up-close photos or detailed descriptions...


I would be willing to put money on the fact that this would be legal. If my assumption is correct this website/company is an offshoot of a thunder chickens project from last year (The autonomous SD card reader). It will be interesting to see how these things are implemented this year. Welcome to the AndyMark for electronics.

[Billfred]

I would be willing to put money on the fact that this would be legal. If my assumption is correct this website/company is an offshoot of a thunder chickens project from last year (The autonomous SD card reader). It will be interesting to see how these things are implemented this year. Welcome to the AndyMark for electronics.
So now our programmer won't have to have someone hold his ankles as he leans over the wall surrounding the arena floor to download the new program?*

AWESOME!

Probably a formality, but does Cross the Road meet all the requirements as a supplier (federal tax ID, enough supply, etc.)? As good as these products seem, it'd be a shame for them not to get used because of a paperwork issue.

*Yes, this has more or less been the case in the past--at Palmetto on Thursday, our programmer had a new autonomous for us to try. We were already queued up for the match, so he caught our attention, threw over the program cable, and downloaded the new program while we shuffled closer to the field. Fortunately, the wall isn't too high, only three feet or so. I'm kidding about holding onto ankles--perhaps I should've gotten more sleep last night. >_<

[Mike Copioli]

AWESOME!

Probably a formality, but does Cross the Road meet all the requirements as a supplier (federal tax ID, enough supply, etc.)? As good as these products seem, it'd be a shame for them not to get used because of a paperwork issue.


Yes. Cross The Road Electronics is a registered LLC. Although USB is not, this Application is new. It is the first of it's kind. This makes parts difficult to obtain in large quantities. At this time we are able to produce 400 of these devices. In 6 months we will be able to produce much larger quantities. These devices will be available to FIRST teams for the 2007 season.

[Richard Wallace]

A device that converts the operator interface 15pin joystick ports, into a USB host, now exists. The device is called USB_chicklet. Check it out at www.crosstheroadelectronics.com. Also please provide feedback about our new website.The board looks good. Couple of questions I'm sure others are also wondering about: how does it mount; e.g., what's on the reverse side ? and what is the power consumption ?

The site looks good. When do you anticipate replacing some of the lorem ipsum (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010216.html) with real information?

[Mike Copioli]

The board looks good. Couple of questions I'm sure others are also wondering about: how does it mount; e.g., what's on the reverse side ? and what is the power consumption ?

The site looks good. When do you anticipate replacing some of the lorem ipsum (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010216.html) with real information?

Yah, I know, I'm working on it now. I'm getting the forum linked right now.

It mounts directly to the DB15 port connection. It uses about 200mA. But the standard for a USB Host is 500mA. So it must be able to provide 500mA to meet the Hosting standard. Although this is not necessary to operate most HID devices, it is the standard.

[Gdeaver]

Note that some USB joy sticks use optical encoders not pots. That coupled with the USB chips may make the power supply issue a problem. May be it's time for first to relax the rules on this issue. Also note that with out the operating system driver some joy sticks are terrible.

[Mike Copioli]

Also note that with out the operating system driver some joy sticks are terrible.

This will not be an issue.

[Qbranch]

This is SOOOO awesome. I have a ton of applications for this.

Can anyone tell me what it might cost, when and where exactly I can get one?

-Q

[Rohith Surampudi]

CONGRATULATIONS...this is something that FIRST definitely needed, i wish you all the best of luck with your business venture.

This is SOOOO awesome. I have a ton of applications for this.

Can anyone tell me what it might cost, when and where exactly I can get one?

-Q


theres no price there yet, but they should be available on this website in november

A device that converts the operator interface 15pin joystick ports, into a USB host, now exists. The device is called USB_chicklet. Check it out at www.crosstheroadelectronics.com. Also please provide feedback about our new website.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Congratulations, Mike! Just what we needed.
Al

[Mike Copioli]

Congratulations, Mike! Just what we needed.
Al

Thanks Al.

[slickguy2007]

Very nice Mike. What it says in my title applies to more than one person in your family. :)

[Mike Copioli]

Very nice Mike. What it says in my title applies to more than one person in your family. :)

This product was created by Omar Zrien and myself. I cannot accept sole credit for it's creation. And don't get to excited. You have not seen the price yet.

[Adam Richards]

This product was created by Omar Zrien and myself. I cannot accept sole credit for it's creation. And don't get to excited. You have not seen the price yet.Would this price be in the few hundred range, or thousand-plus range?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

And don't get to excited. You have not seen the price yet.

I thought you were going to give them away to your friends. Wink, Wink, Nod, Nod.

[Billfred]

I thought you were going to give them away to your friends. Wink, Wink, Nod, Nod.
I read it as one of two ways:

1) It's gonna be pricey, given the rather short runs that come with a FIRST-oriented product these days.

2) FIRST knows about these items, is planning on introducing them to the KoP for 2007, and CtRE will sell more (and spares) to teams, similar to the way that almost everyone places an order with IFI shortly after Kickoff for more Victors. (Could this also mean the return of the CH Flightstick to the kit?)

[ChuckDickerson]

A device that converts the operator interface 15pin joystick ports, into a USB host, now exists. The device is called USB_chicklet. Check it out at www.crosstheroadelectronics.com. Also please provide feedback about our new website.

All I can say is THANK YOU!

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

[Mike Copioli]

Would this price be in the few hundred range, or thousand-plus range?

None of the above.

[fimmel]

less than $100?
/forest


btw i hope to get some for the green team....

[Stuart]

I want 2 . . mabe 3 . . dont know just yet.

[Mike]

:ahh:
Consider yourself emailed, Mr. Copioli.

[AdamHeard]

These... Are... Awesome...

I was planning on working with some teamates rewiring xbox controllers into pure analog and digital. I liked the idea of xbox controllers, but didn't like the idea that they would be heavily modified and would be difficult to replace. This solves that problem.

Also, that usb/sd card for changing code is awesome.

[Astronouth7303]

This will not be an issue.

It varies based on the layout of the stick, although with the number of channels available in HID, I'd think it's not a problem.

Can you configure how it maps the 30+ (?) analog/digital channels in HID to the 4&4 on the OI?

Is the power jack compatible with common battery packs?

Do we have any idea if FIRST will allow an externally-powered device?

[Richard Wallace]

Is the power jack compatible with common battery packs? ...From the photo it looks to be compatible with a wall mounted power supply; e.g., Digikey T313-P13P-ND (5V, 550mA, $4.85) or similar. The 5V connector appears to be a 1.7mm receptacle with center positive. Mike, please correct this if I'm wrong about the connector.

Whatever the connector, you should be able to get one easily and fit it to whatever you want to use to power the USB device and the Chicklet.

The more important question on changing <R78> remains to be answered:<R78> All equipment connected to the Joystick Ports of the IFI Operator Interface must be powered solely through the power available through the port. External power sources of any type are not permitted on any equipment connected to the Joystick Ports. Portable computing devices may not be connected to Joystick input ports on the Operator Interface. Power-passive devices (e.g. joysticks that draw their power solely through the IFI Operator Interface joystick port) are permitted.It would not be sensible to simply delete the rule; to minimize hazards FIRST will probably want to restrict the type of external power supply allowed. Or maybe they'll just keep the "power-passive" requirement as it has been.

Obviously I'm just speculating here -- if anyone has actual knowledge of FIRST's intentions, they probably should keep it quiet until kickoff.

[Mike Copioli]

It varies based on the layout of the stick, although with the number of channels available in HID, I'd think it's not a problem.

Can you configure how it maps the 30+ (?) analog/digital channels in HID to the 4&4 on the OI?

Is the power jack compatible with common battery packs?

Do we have any idea if FIRST will allow an externally-powered device?
The Chicklet is a USB host. Without diving deep into USB protocol, I will say that it will support ALL device functionallity. However one must understand that the device is broken down into two major sections.

1. The USB hosting section

2. The analog/digital interface section

The O/I port consists of 4 digital and 4 analog channels. Apply math and anyone can conclude that it is not possible to interface more than 4 digital I/O if all four analog channels are being used. This is a limitaion of the O/I not the Chicklet itself. However if one were to use a USB joystick, or any other device with only 2 analog channels, the interface can support up to 10 digital I/O's.

[Mike Copioli]

From the photo it looks to be compatible with a wall mounted power supply; e.g., Digikey T313-P13P-ND (5V, 550mA, $4.85) or similar. The 5V connector appears to be a 1.7mm receptacle with center positive. Mike, please correct this if I'm wrong about the connector..

The connector is a 2.1mm center positive. The supply is included with the device.

The more important question on changing <R78> remains to be answered:It would not be sensible to simply delete the rule; to minimize hazards FIRST will probably want to restrict the type of external power supply allowed. Or maybe they'll just keep the "power-passive" requirement as it has been.

This is the important question indeed. We are working to find a way to power it off of the O/I. A possibility is powering it from the competition port.
As far as the rule is concerned, I am not even going to begin to speculate weather or not FIRST will change this rule. I will say that it would be dissapointing to not be able to use this technology because of a rule that was created before it existed. We were aware of the necessity of a rule change prior to developing the device. That is the risk you take in bussiness I guess this is similar to what Dean Kamen must have gone through when he created the segway. I know some City's don't allow segways on the streets or sidwalk's. It is a shame to see such technology get restricted.

[Not2B]

My guys on our geekTeam did the PS2 controller last year. They got it "working" by using the comp port. However, I used the word "working" because they only got SOME functions working. They couldn't power some functions on the PS2. Still useable, but not perfect.

OK - point of the post - They could have gotten all functions working had they been able to use an external power source. They talked to the IFI guys for a long time about this. We never did use an external power source, of course, because it was against the rules. But it sure would be nice.

Now forget the rules for a second - this is still a GREAT (WICKED GREAT) way to get younger kids and regular people interested in your robot in demos. Hand them a big control board with switches and joy sticks, and they don't get it. Hand them a game controller, and WHAM - they pick it up right away and become interested much quicker. It's amazing how useful it is for demos.

I'll keep my fingers crossed!

[Richard Wallace]

Thanks for the correction on the connector size.... We are working to find a way to power it off of the O/I. A possibility is powering it from the competition port.<R79> appears to preclude that option:<R79> The Competition Cable at the Alliance Station must connect directly to the Competition Port on the Operator Interface. No intermediate connectors, cables, or “pigtails” are permitted.I had no part in drafting <R79> or any other rule; however, the intent seems clear to me. FIRST wants to ensure that the O/I responds correctly to the competition port. Correct response is critical to safety on the field.

So as I see it the question is, can FIRST ensure safety on the field while allowing externally powered devices connected to the O/I joystick ports? Maybe their answer is no. Or maybe it is yes, but only for pre-approved devices; i.e., not for custom circuits that are presented for inspection at an event, but maybe for circuits that have been pre-approved through some kind of advance review and inspection. Clearly the O/I itself had to be evaluated and approved, so why not another device?

[Pat McCarthy]

I don't know if it's any better from a safety/hazard standpoint, but instead of hooking up to a power outlet that FIRST would provide, a team could make a battery powered option that plugs into the device it is powering.
HOT used the 222's plans to make a battery power source to run the whole OI, for public events, using a small rechargeable pack.

[Mike Copioli]

So as I see it the question is, can FIRST ensure safety on the field while allowing externally powered devices connected to the O/I joystick ports? Maybe their answer is no. Or maybe it is yes[/QUOTE]


The answer, I believe is yes. Of course I'm biased... Actually pulling power from the comp port should not be a saftey issue. The robot's are disabled via the mode bits. I believe, not certain, that the E-stop kills power to the O/I. With these saftey features already in place there is no reason, other than the rules, that pulling power form the comp port, would be unsafe. I agree that custom circuits should not be allowed use external power sources.

[Mike Copioli]

Another key point is that no matter how much power is put into the O/I joystick ports, if the O/I is disabled the robot is disabled.

[Mike Copioli]

I don't know if it's any better from a safety/hazard standpoint, but instead of hooking up to a power outlet that FIRST would provide, a team could make a battery powered option that plugs into the device it is powering.
HOT used the 222's plans to make a battery power source to run the whole OI, for public events, using a small rechargeable pack.


This was the plan if external power was not available. However I'm sure a lot of matches will go poorly due to dead batteries. I see the battery pack as another failure point therfore I do not think it is the way to go. I can not remember how many times I wanted to scream at the camera because of a dead back-up battery.

Yes I know about the jumper for 12v. We used 12v on the practice bot but not the comp bot.

BTW I am writing this inbetween programming Chicklets...Programmers note the time......LOL

[Not2B]

I don't know if it's any better from a safety/hazard standpoint, but instead of hooking up to a power outlet that FIRST would provide, a team could make a battery powered option that plugs into the device it is powering.
HOT used the 222's plans to make a battery power source to run the whole OI, for public events, using a small rechargeable pack.

IFI personel have a battery pack with an adpater that plugs into the OI power plug. That's all you need. We were able to get enough power from the OI when the OI was plugged into a power source. We were very close to the edge of having enough power when the OI was powered off the competition port.

[Mike Copioli]

IFI personel have a battery pack with an adpater that plugs into the OI power plug. That's all you need. We were able to get enough power from the OI when the OI was plugged into a power source. We were very close to the edge of having enough power when the OI was powered off the competition port.

Where were you pulling power from? I assume the joyport LED outputs. If that is the case, there is no way the O/I can provide enough power for the Chicklet, and the USB device. 200+mA up to a MAX of 500mA. The LED drivers are current limited to 10mA each. The Chicklet will require more than what the joyport can provide regardless of the source.

[Not2B]

Where were you pulling power from? I assume the joyport LED outputs. If that is the case, there is no way the O/I can provide enough power for the Chicklet, and the USB device. 200+mA up to a MAX of 500mA. The LED drivers are current limited to 10mA each. The Chicklet will require more than what the joyport can provide regardless of the source.

Sorry - I didn't mean the chicklet - I ment the PS2 controller. But what I was getting at is the use of external power for the OI. We couldn't use external power for the OI, let alone power NOT piped through the OI.

But I'll keep my fingers crossed for next year.

[mehul]

well dont kow if we can use this..." usb to a 15 pin device" found it in ebay and came up with this eventhough its sold in uk im sure we can get it here in the US

http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-to-15-Pin-Joystick-Gameport-Converter-Adaptor-Cable_W0QQitemZ300023178789QQihZ020QQcategoryZ7494 3QQcmdZViewItem

they show the specs in the bottom and im sure u guys can figure out how to impiment it to use in the first controller. It also doesnt require any programing so it should work fine and no external power source.

Note* sorry for the bad grammer :) and as u see i was an animator and have no idea what to do with this electronic stuff ;)

[yongkimleng]

like WOW the usb chicklet is supposed to be a usb MASTER and read the data off the XY sticks and buttons on ur controller and probably have a few DACs to output the various signals?
but wait, the selection of USB joysticks should be limited right? not all can be used, especially those which have specialised drivers which come with them. Well one interesting thing is that X-Box controllers are supported! :ahh: so... some fun coming up soon i see?
Probably takes some time for this to be approved for FIRST i think :D

[Jack Jones]

well dont kow if we can use this..." usb to a 15 pin device" found it in ebay and came up with this eventhough its sold in uk im sure we can get it here in the US

http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-to-15-Pin-Joystick-Gameport-Converter-Adaptor-Cable_W0QQitemZ300023178789QQihZ020QQcategoryZ7494 3QQcmdZViewItem

they show the specs in the bottom and im sure u guys can figure out how to impiment it to use in the first controller. It also doesnt require any programing so it should work fine and no external power source.

Note* sorry for the bad grammer :) and as u see i was an animator and have no idea what to do with this electronic stuff ;)

This item is a brand new USB to 15 Pin Joystick Gameport Converter. This gameport adapter allows the connection of a standard joystick to your USB port.

They contradict themselves - or maybe that's the way the Brits see it? I'm sure it goes the wrong direction. Otherwise, it'd need power.

[Alan Anderson]

well dont kow if we can use this..." usb to a 15 pin device" found it in ebay and came up with this eventhough its sold in uk im sure we can get it here in the US

http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-to-15-Pin-Joystick-Gameport-Converter-Adaptor-Cable_W0QQitemZ300023178789QQihZ020QQcategoryZ7494 3QQcmdZViewItem
Sorry, that's backwards for our needs. It's for connecting old-style analog joysticks to a computer having a USB port. What we need for an IFI control system -- and what this thread is discussing -- goes the other way.

[Greg Marra]

but wait, the selection of USB joysticks should be limited right? not all can be used, especially those which have specialised drivers which come with them. Well one interesting thing is that X-Box controllers are supported! :ahh:


Actually, thanks to a standard (USB human interface device class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_human_interface_device_class)) most any controlling device should work with the USB Chicklet. The only problem would be how the chicklet chooses to map all of the possible channels in an HID device to it's limited number of channels, but the standard does exist. "Proprietary drivers" are often required for unusual functions that require an extension of the standard, and those 'extras' wouldn't work with the chicklet.

But have no fear, the selection of usable joysticks won't be extremely limited thanks to standards! Yay standards!

[yongkimleng]

Actually, thanks to a standard (USB human interface device class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_human_interface_device_class)) most any controlling device should work with the USB Chicklet. The only problem would be how the chicklet chooses to map all of the possible channels in an HID device to it's limited number of channels, but the standard does exist. "Proprietary drivers" are often required for unusual functions that require an extension of the standard, and those 'extras' wouldn't work with the chicklet.

But have no fear, the selection of usable joysticks won't be extremely limited thanks to standards! Yay standards!

;) cool thanks for the snipplet of info.. on a sidenote, for those who want to make their own controllers and are having a bad time figuring out how to turn digital signals into an analogue 0-5V without an ADC, they can probably try a PIC18F4550 usb-integrated microcontroller which can be configured to behave as a USB HID device. So going by HID specs, you'll just need to translate whatever sensors you're using and output the necessary variables, letting the USB chicklet do the DAC conversion :D
yes I realise this is going a large round to solve a simple problem, but PIC-inclined programmers may find this easier instead :yikes:

[Mike Copioli]

Actually, thanks to a standard (USB human interface device class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_human_interface_device_class)) most any controlling device should work with the USB Chicklet. The only problem would be how the chicklet chooses to map all of the possible channels in an HID device to it's limited number of channels, but the standard does exist. "Proprietary drivers" are often required for unusual functions that require an extension of the standard, and those 'extras' wouldn't work with the chicklet.

You are correct. The Chicklet will support ANY HID device. The only limitation is what we (CTRE) introduce. You are also correct in your statement about mapping the inputs. However we have solved this issue by implementing functionality that allows the USER to select the configuration of the game pad and x-box controller. The logitech game pad, for example. The user will be able to select from one of two modes.

Mode 1: 4 digital buttons selectable by the user and 4 analog axis(x,y & x,y)

Mode 2: 12 digital channels and 2 analog axis (y,y)

Also, any device that is not yet supported can be added.

[yongkimleng]

You are correct. The Chicklet will support ANY HID device. The only limitation is what we (CTRE) introduce. You are also correct in your statement about mapping the inputs. However we have solved this issue by implementing functionality that allows the USER to select the configuration of the game pad and x-box controller. The logitech game pad, for example. The user will be able to select from one of two modes.

Mode 1: 4 digital buttons selectable by the user and 4 analog axis(x,y & x,y)

Mode 2: 12 digital channels and 2 analog axis (y,y)

Also, any device that is not yet supported can be added.

wow.. correct me if im wrong, you're the designer for all the products on the website?

[Mike Copioli]

wow.. correct me if im wrong, you're the designer for all the products on the website?


No. All of our products our designed by Omar and myself.

[yongkimleng]

No. All of our products our designed by Omar and myself.

i see.. very impressed by the two products there :cool:

[Joe Johnson]

well dont kow if we can use this..." usb to a 15 pin device" found it in ebay and came up with this eventhough its sold in uk im sure we can get it here in the US

http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-to-15-Pin-Joystick-Gameport-Converter-Adaptor-Cable_W0QQitemZ300023178789QQihZ020QQcategoryZ7494 3QQcmdZViewItem

they show the specs in the bottom and im sure u guys can figure out how to impiment it to use in the first controller. It also doesnt require any programing so it should work fine and no external power source.

Note* sorry for the bad grammer :) and as u see i was an animator and have no idea what to do with this electronic stuff ;)

I think this is the compliment of what we want. If I understand this correctly this device allows folks to provide a 15 Pin gameport to a PC by plugging it into a USB port on their PC.

We want/need something that allows a USB gamepad to be plugged into a 15Pin gamepad port.

Joe J.

[Joe Johnson]

You are correct. The Chicklet will support ANY HID device. The only limitation is what we (CTRE) introduce. You are also correct in your statement about mapping the inputs. However we have solved this issue by implementing functionality that allows the USER to select the configuration of the game pad and x-box controller. The logitech game pad, for example. The user will be able to select from one of two modes.

Mode 1: 4 digital buttons selectable by the user and 4 analog axis(x,y & x,y)

Mode 2: 12 digital channels and 2 analog axis (y,y)

Also, any device that is not yet supported can be added.

Very cool... ...very clever too.

My memory is a bit rusty, but I think that each joystick port on the OI only has 4 switches and 2 analog channels. How do you get 4 analog channels (in mode 1) or 12 digital channels (in mode 2) plumbed to the OI? You must have an adaptor/harness???

Joe J.

[yongkimleng]

Very cool... ...very clever too.

My memory is a bit rusty, but I think that each joystick port on the OI only has 4 switches and 2 analog channels. How do you get 4 analog channels (in mode 1) or 12 digital channels (in mode 2) plumbed to the OI? You must have an adaptor/harness???

Joe J.

I'm not sure about the OI (never used full size RC before, only miniRC), but the joystick port supports a max of 4 analogs and 4 digitals, mode 1 should be possible.
Maybe mode 2 turns the 4 analogs into 8 digital inputs via multiplexing each digital input into 4 respective analog levels? :ahh: :yikes:

[Mike Copioli]

My memory is a bit rusty, but I think that each joystick port on the OI only has 4 switches and 2 analog channels. How do you get 4 analog channels (in mode 1) or 12 digital channels (in mode 2) plumbed to the OI? You must have an adaptor/harness???

Joe J.

The O/I has 4 analog channels/port. We use the extra two analog channels as digital when they are not used for analog.

BTW

Congrats on your recent TV appearance.

[yongkimleng]

The O/I has 4 analog channels/port. We use the extra two analog channels as digital when they are not used for analog.

BTW

Congrats on your recent TV appearance.

How about mode 2?

[Joe Johnson]

The O/I has 4 analog channels/port. We use the extra two analog channels as digital when they are not used for analog.

BTW

Congrats on your recent TV appearance.

Yes, you are correct. I have really been out of things too long.

As to Mode2, where you send the 12 buttons. Do you send them via the analog channels, where different ranges imply different button combinations for example
0-15: 0000 0000 0000
16-31: 0000 0000 0001
32-47: 0000 0000 0010
48-63: 0000 0000 0011
etc.

If this is true then you don't use the switch inputs or the LED outputs.

If this is correct, can I propose 2 more modes?

mode 3:
LED outputs used by the RC to multiplex between mode1 and mode2

mode 4:
every other data packet switch between mode1 data & mode2 data with the switch inputs used to tell the RC which type of data to expect*

Finally, you don't discuss the POV data. The POV button is a very nice way to drive robots in many cases. From a Windows application, the data is returned as 0, 45, 90, 135, 180, 225, 270, 315 but as a practical matter, the POV data is really just 4 more switch inputs that are mapped to these 8 pionts of the compass. Any chance you can map these 4 switches to give access to that data too**?

Think about it.

Joe J.

*This may run into problems with aliasing since you can't sync with the IO packet sending. perhaps it would be better to send 2 packets in mode1 and 2 in mode2 or maybe even randomly switching, within limits. Also, there is another possible problem with this if the OI does not synchronize the reading of the OI switches with the reading of the analog ports, but the ability to have all the switches and both X-Y data on the thumb would be great.

**note that if you can use 16 bits per range on the analog inputs, then you have room for 16 swithches with a 255 bit resolution on the ADC on the OI -- I am not sure but I think that the ADC on the OI is still just 8 bits. It seems feasible.

[Alan Anderson]

Finally, you don't discuss the POV data...
The POV "hat" switch on the white A/B joysticks is connected to the "wheel" input. It's just a few resistors wired to the switches to give testable values on the analog input.

It sounds to me like the Chicklet's Mode 2 turns four digital inputs into an analog value on the "wheel" input -- perfect for a POV switch -- and another four digital inputs into an analog value on the "aux" input.

[ozrien]

Dr. Joe,

The joystick interface does consist of 4 analog and 4 digital channels. We had intended to have 4 possible modes for gamepads with two analog sticks,

mode 0 - axis 1 XY, axis 2 XY - 4 channels used
mode 1 - axis 1 XY only - 2 channels used
mode 2 - axis 2 XY only - 2 channels used
mode 3 - axis 1 Y, axis 2 Y - 2 channels used

And you are correct in saying we can use the unused channels for digital values! In fact we intended to use the upper nibble of unused analog channels precisly to send digital button info. We're only using the upper nibble (MSb 4 bits) due to possible jitter in the analog transmission, 4 bits is overkill we know and we may change that to support more digital support.

So lets say a,b,x,y (XBOX controller) are decoded in one of the analog channels. And lets say a and x are pressed and b and y are not.
The data transmitted would be binary : 1010 1000 or 168(decimal).
the 1010 would be a-press,b-not,x-press,y-not.
the lower 1000 is ignored by the application. Since we can't ensure that a value of n won't be read as n-1 or n+1 on the OI side the lower nibble is set to the middle of the value range. This uncertainty is do to the jitter in the OI side.

The POV will be decoded as 4 buttons. I grew up on SEGA, there's no way we're not supporting this. The only trick would to implement application code to recognize up and left pressed together as up/left, which shouldn't be hard for most teams.

So the intended use we designed for was so that through a simple calibration mode you can set the number of analog channels and which axises to use (mode 0-3). This selection would determine the number of digital slots available, in which case the next step of calibration would be to pick which buttons you want to be included in the digital transmission, we were thinking of having an led blink the number of digital slots available(4 or 12). And to select a POV button you can simply press one of the POV buttons.

So somehow the user would enable calibration mode, i.e. jumper and power recycle perhaps

1) Choose which axis profile, either using lcd outputs from controller (which is a FANTASTIC idea) or maybe number of button presses.

2) Observe led blinks to see how many digital buttons you can have.

3) press the buttons you want decoded (max 4 or 12 depending on axis selection).

4) leave calibration mode and PLAY.

Settings are saved in EEPROM so you never have to do this again.

Now this IS NOT SET IN STONE. We could use the lcd outputs to select axis mode during runtime or better yet allow us to transmit 4 times the data through indexing. My only concern is that we don't make this so complicated that only veteran teams use this.

Omar Zrien
Cross The Road Electronics

Yes, you are correct. I have really been out of things too long.

As to Mode2, where you send the 12 buttons. Do you send them via the analog channels, where different ranges imply different button combinations for example
0-15: 0000 0000 0000
16-31: 0000 0000 0001
32-47: 0000 0000 0010
48-63: 0000 0000 0011
etc.

If this is true then you don't use the switch inputs or the LED outputs.

If this is correct, can I propose 2 more modes?

mode 3:
LED outputs used by the RC to multiplex between mode1 and mode2

mode 4:
every other data packet switch between mode1 data & mode2 data with the switch inputs used to tell the RC which type of data to expect*

Finally, you don't discuss the POV data. The POV button is a very nice way to drive robots in many cases. From a Windows application, the data is returned as 0, 45, 90, 135, 180, 225, 270, 315 but as a practical matter, the POV data is really just 4 more switch inputs that are mapped to these 8 pionts of the compass. Any chance you can map these 4 switches to give access to that data too**?

Think about it.

Joe J.

*This may run into problems with aliasing since you can't sync with the IO packet sending. perhaps it would be better to send 2 packets in mode1 and 2 in mode2 or maybe even randomly switching, within limits. Also, there is another possible problem with this if the OI does not synchronize the reading of the OI switches with the reading of the analog ports, but the ability to have all the switches and both X-Y data on the thumb would be great.

**note that if you can use 16 bits per range on the analog inputs, then you have room for 16 swithches with a 255 bit resolution on the ADC on the OI -- I am not sure but I think that the ADC on the OI is still just 8 bits. It seems feasible.

[Joe Johnson]

Dr. Joe,

The joystick interface does consist of 4 analog and 4 digital channels. We had intended to have 4 possible modes for gamepads with two analog sticks,

mode 0 - axis 1 XY, axis 2 XY - 4 channels used
mode 1 - axis 1 XY only - 2 channels used
mode 2 - axis 2 XY only - 2 channels used
mode 3 - axis 1 Y, axis 2 Y - 2 channels used

And you are correct in saying we can use the unused channels for digital values! In fact we intended to use the upper nibble of unused analog channels precisly to send digital button info. We're only using the upper nibble (MSb 4 bits) due to possible jitter in the analog transmission, 4 bits is overkill we know and we may change that to support more digital support.

So lets say a,b,x,y (XBOX controller) are decoded in one of the analog channels. And lets say a and x are pressed and b and y are not.
The data transmitted would be binary : 1010 1000 or 168(decimal).
the 1010 would be a-press,b-not,x-press,y-not.
the lower 1000 is ignored by the application. Since we can't ensure that a value of n won't be read as n-1 or n+1 on the OI side the lower nibble is set to the middle of the value range. This uncertainty is do to the jitter in the OI side.

The POV will be decoded as 4 buttons. I grew up on SEGA, there's no way we're not supporting this. The only trick would to implement application code to recognize up and left pressed together as up/left, which shouldn't be hard for most teams.

So the intended use we designed for was so that through a simple calibration mode you can set the number of analog channels and which axises to use (mode 0-3). This selection would determine the number of digital slots available, in which case the next step of calibration would be to pick which buttons you want to be included in the digital transmission, we were thinking of having an led blink the number of digital slots available(4 or 12). And to select a POV button you can simply press one of the POV buttons.

So somehow the user would enable calibration mode, i.e. jumper and power recycle perhaps

1) Choose which axis profile, either using lcd outputs from controller (which is a FANTASTIC idea) or maybe number of button presses.

2) Observe led blinks to see how many digital buttons you can have.

3) press the buttons you want decoded (max 4 or 12 depending on axis selection).

4) leave calibration mode and PLAY.

Settings are saved in EEPROM so you never have to do this again.

Now this IS NOT SET IN STONE. We could use the lcd outputs to select axis mode during runtime or better yet allow us to transmit 4 times the data through indexing. My only concern is that we don't make this so complicated that only veteran teams use this.

Omar Zrien
Cross The Road Electronics

I know it would be more work for you guys, but you may want to consider the option of hooking the thing up to a PC to set up the parameters. I suppose you have a serial port that you could use (though perhaps not RS-232 voltage levels?). If so, it would be pretty easy to make a set of menus folks could navigate using hyperterminal (or whatever your favorite terminal program is). Just a thought.

As to keeping the thing easy so rookies can use it, almost every team modifies the default code somewhat. I think you could pretty easily have them cut and paste code snippets without loosing too many of them.

Just one man's opinion.

Joe J.

[Don Wright]

Sorry to get off the great technical discussion going on, but is there any chance any crosstheroadelectronics products will be at the Ford First Invitational to take a look at?

[Mike Copioli]

Sorry to get off the great technical discussion going on, but is there any chance any crosstheroadelectronics products will be at the Ford First Invitational to take a look at?

You can count on it. They may not be fully functional, as we are still fine tuning. But they will be there.

[falconmaster]

You can count on it. They may not be fully functional, as we are still fine tuning. But they will be there.
Whe will we be able to get it online? I keep checking the website to make sure its not a dream. Is there a date of release? When can we buy it? We have been waiting for something like this for a long time!! Thanks!!

[ChuckDickerson]

Any new word on the USB-Chicklet? The website (http://www.crosstheroadelectronics.com/USB-Chicklet.htm) says they will be available in November 2006 which has come and gone with no news on pricing or availability. I hope these are not vaporware or some cruel joke just to get our hopes up! I eagerly await the product release and bet many others do as well.

[ChuckDickerson]

Hey the website has been updated! The price is now set at $99 and they will be available in January! No button to pre-order yet though.

[Ethulin]

Hey the website has been updated! The price is now set at $99 and they will be available in January! No button to pre-order yet though.

Woha! Oh so cool. I think the question on everyone's mind is if FIRST will let them in due to the power usage. I am inclined to say yes, but I am not willing to put $100 on that and I don't think many other teams would as well. I wish FIRST could make an early decision so we all know...

[Joel J]

Woha! Oh so cool. I think the question on everyone's mind is if FIRST will let them in due to the power usage. I am inclined to say yes, but I am not willing to put $100 on that and I don't think many other teams would as well. I wish FIRST could make an early decision so we all know...
I think its a hint that the OI has been revamped!

[Kingofl337]

If they were going to revamp the OI it would probably have this built in. I seriously doubt the OI has been changed. I honestly think they are just hoping FIRST will say ok.

[Joel J]

If they were going to revamp the OI it would probably have this built in. I seriously doubt the OI has been changed. I honestly think they are just hoping FIRST will say ok.
It seems that you are correct, as far as the legality of the product goes:

This is the important question indeed. We are working to find a way to power it off of the O/I. A possibility is powering it from the competition port.
As far as the rule is concerned, I am not even going to begin to speculate weather or not FIRST will change this rule. I will say that it would be dissapointing to not be able to use this technology because of a rule that was created before it existed. We were aware of the necessity of a rule change prior to developing the device. That is the risk you take in bussiness I guess this is similar to what Dean Kamen must have gone through when he created the segway. I know some City's don't allow segways on the streets or sidwalk's. It is a shame to see such technology get restricted.

[Pavan Dave]

Why am I always the last to hear about such things. Anyways if the product is great and it is found to be FIRST-efficient, than they can expect buisness from 90% of FIRST teams in my opinion because there is atleast one student on EVERY team that thinks their joystick is the best. :)

Pavan.

[Cory]

If these turn out to be FRC legal, we'll be buying them ASAP. We're down to our last 3 CH flightsticks (currently on our 06 controls, which we'd like not to pilfer from for 07). We broke 3 last year, and can't find any except those ugly gray base ones. It's a shame we stopped getting those joysticks in the kit. They're amazing.

[Gdeaver]

If they are not legal this year and teams are stuck with the game port interface, look at the CH industrial joy sticks. they have good feel and can be ordered with First required pots. I've used some portable lifting devices that use these joysticks and the feel is very good. Much better than the kit joy sticks. Couldn't the usb adapter use a super cap to supply power? The OI is powered for some time before the joysticks are actively used.

[Viper37]

hopefully first will just break down and give us USB. :)

[Kingofl337]

Honestly making an Xbox360 controller work on the current system isn't very hard. They have 10k pots in them you just need to scale the output. GameCube and PS2 controllers also have 10k pots.

You just have to cut the traces to the pots and solder directly to them. Thats about it.

Obviously a plug and play solution would make life easier. If your controller breaks you can goto Circuit City and get a replacement.

[Astronouth7303]

Honestly making an Xbox360 controller work on the current system isn't very hard. They have 10k pots in them you just need to scale the output. GameCube and PS2 controllers also have 10k pots.

Just tell me when you get a Wiimote talking to the OI.

[Mike Copioli]

Honestly making an Xbox360 controller work on the current system isn't very hard. They have 10k pots in them you just need to scale the output. GameCube and PS2 controllers also have 10k pots.

It's not quite that simple. The O/I is measuring the current through the analog inputs, not voltage. Simply soldering the 10k pots to a connector will give you limited range. Approximately %10 of the expected range(100k). Not to mention the O/I will never see analog value 127. The correct way to adjust for this is to create a voltage divider using the 5v aux as the input to the divider. You would divide the voltage down to apx. %10 of 5v (500mv).

Lets compare:

5v/100k = 50uA

.5v/10K = 50uA

As you can see from the math above, this is the only way to "trick" the O/I into seeing a 100k range of resistance. If you do not do this, the O/I will see a value of 229 at 10k. As the resistance decreases the value will increase. so your range will be 229-254.

[Dennis Jenks]

so your range will be 229-254.

I'm pretty sure most teams would be OK with being somewhere between Division by Zero and Cheesy Poofs! ;)

[Mike Copioli]

I'm pretty sure most teams would be OK with being somewhere between Division by Zero and Cheesy Poofs! ;)

LOL

[Kingofl337]

You are correct Mike the OI does see a limited value from the controller. We wrote software to translate the variations into "steps" 5 to - 5 and this works fine, this is what we used on our 2006 robot that used to play the whole 2006 on and off season. You are also right about 127 had to program the code so that when it read 127 (unplugged) to send neutral to the motors. Otherwise the robot would take off when the controller was unplugged.

Mike,

The big question is are you working with FIRST/IFI to get your adapter legal
for competition? If you are working with them have they been receptive to
the idea?

[Mike Copioli]

You are correct Mike the OI does see a limited value from the controller. We wrote software to translate the variations into "steps" 5 to - 5 and this works fine, this is what we used on our 2006 robot that used to play the whole 2006 on and off season. You are also right about 127 had to program the code so that when it read 127 (unplugged) to send neutral to the motors. Otherwise the robot would take off when the controller was unplugged.

I guess you don't really need the full 127 step range. Our team only uses two anyway. Go and Stop.

Hey, what kind of answer did you expect from a hardware guy. lol



The big question is are you working with FIRST/IFI to get your adapter legal for competition? If you are working with them have they been receptive to the idea?

We have been working with IFI. They have been very helpfull. I do not have an answer for you as far as legality.

[Mike Copioli]

Ok, We have updated our user manual. It should be available for viewing tommorow by clicking the tutorials link. The pdf contains an explaination of USB-chicklet, directions for it's use and a list of supported devices. Please let us know if you have any comments or suggestions for improvement. Also available for viewing is a FAQ.

Thank you,

Mike Copioli
CTRE Hardware Engineer/Developer
Team #217 The Thunder Chickens

[Tottanka]

Hm...
Why is it so expansive?
For an Israeli team each one of those devices will coast about 200$...thats very expansive for such a thing...

[Mike Copioli]

Hm...
Why is it so expansive?
For an Israeli team each one of those devices will coast about 200$...thats very expansive for such a thing...

The device is price is determined by the folowing factors:

1. Cost of the components to manufacture each device.

2. Availablitity of the components necessary to build the device.

3. Total quantity produced

4. Time and money spent on research and development

This is a complicated and unique device. It will allow you to use devices like the X-box controller, wireless and wired Logitech gamepads, The Logitech steering wheel, and numerous USB joysticks. Nothing else like it exists. Now having made that statement, I know someone will try to compare it to similar devices. When doing this one must consider the following:

1. This is an Embedded USB hosting device. That means it does not require an operating system like Windows or Linix.

2. This is not the same thing as a USB to Serial adapter. Serial adapters are not USB hosts. Devices are much less complicated than a Host and require less hardware to build. Yet they are still about 40-50 USD.

3. It performs all of the USB host negotiating and data transfer and then converts it to analog and digital information that is directly connected to the IFI operator interface.

We have determined a price that we feel is fair and consistant with the products ability and functionallity. There are good reasons this technology has not existed until now.

Think about what it costs to go to a concert, or dinnner at a nice restraunt. In comparison, the cost of this device is not unreasonable.

Thank you,

Mike Copioli

[DanDon]

Mike, do you know what the availability of this chicklet will be? (will there be enough for at least one per team?)

thanks,
/dan

[chris31]

Mike, do you know what the availability of this chicklet will be? (will there be enough for at least one per team?)

thanks,
/dan

I really dont think the demand will be that high. We will see though.

[Greg Marra]

I really dont think the demand will be that high. We will see though.

It would be pretty cool if they were included in the kit of parts, but that would be a rather expensive item to add. It might be worth it though, because then you could open up a whole new range of ways to control the robots.

[chris31]

It would be pretty cool if they were included in the kit of parts, but that would be a rather expensive item to add. It might be worth it though, because then you could open up a whole new range of ways to control the robots.

$130 x 1000. Yeah thats quite a bit of money. FIRST wants to get the most bang for the buck. I dont think theres a major issue with what is out there for controls now to need the extra cost. However, if FIRST would do this i doubt they would but from this company. Instead I would think IFI would design something and make it internal on the OI.

[Michael Hill]

Is it possible to run multiple joysticks through a USB hub using only one unit?

[Kingofl337]

$130 x 1000. Yeah thats quite a bit of money. FIRST wants to get the most bang for the buck. I dont think theres a major issue with what is out there for controls now to need the extra cost. However, if FIRST would do this i doubt they would but from this company. Instead I would think IFI would design something and make it internal on the OI.

I really don't foresee that happening.

The reason being is the current system is extremely easy wire, for teams that want custom controls. By going USB for OI controls, teams would have to either rip apart off the shelf controllers or program their own HID compliant chip. For 95% of the teams the current system works very well. Mike's device fills a need, it would be nice to see it streamlined into a nice case and pull power from the OI.

I just hope this device convinces IFI to allow for externally powered control interfaces. So we can can use the Wii remote to drive the robot this year :D .

[chris31]

I just hope this convinces IFI to allow for externally powered control interfaces. So we can can use the Wii remote to drive the robot this year :D .

At first I was like well Ill just wire it off the OI and then I realized that you cant use wireless (a had a bluetooth board designed to interface with the robot) and so you would have a wiimote with wires all going to the OI. While its cool because its the wiimote, you might as well just custom design something that will work better for what we need. :(

[Kingofl337]

At first I was like well Ill just wire it off the OI and then I realized that you cant use wireless (a had a bluetooth board designed to interface with the robot) and so you would have a wiimote with wires all going to the OI. While its cool because its the wiimote, you might as well just custom design something that will work better for what we need. :(


Yeah, I was just thinking that, the Wii remote isn't as cool wired. But, a rumble ch flight stick would be cool or a force feed back driving wheel.

[chris31]

Yeah, I was just thinking that, the Wii remote isn't as cool wired. But, a rumble ch flight stick would be cool or a force feed back driving wheel.

Cool idea. Rip out the rumble motor of any joystick that has once and mount it inside your joystick. I think most probably run off 5v.

[Mike Copioli]

However, if FIRST would do this i doubt they would but from this company.


Why would you think this?

[chris31]

Why would you think this?

Nothing against your company I just think FIRST would look to find the same idea but cheaper cost. Also it would mean that they would have to know you would have staff to support any sort of question regarding the product that anyone might have. Dont get me wrong though, Im not trying to bash your product. I think its a great peice that would be usefull to anyone who has one, I just dont see FIRST putting them in the kit.

[Mike Copioli]

Is it possible to run multiple joysticks through a USB hub using only one unit?


The Chicklet only supports HID. It does not support HUB. We have a solution that does support HUB and other device classes however that solution was not cost effective. We wanted to keep the device affordable for FIRST Teams. Also the 15-pin joystick port does not provide enough interface to support more than one device. We have a device that outputs RS232 data instead of analog/digital. It is less expensive than the chicklet. If we had a serial port on the O/I this would have been the way to go.

Mike Copioli
CTRE
team 217

[dez250]

Nothing against your company I just think FIRST would look to find the same idea but cheaper cost. Also it would mean that they would have to know you would have staff to support any sort of question regarding the product that anyone might have. Dont get me wrong though, Im not trying to bash your product. I think its a great peice that would be usefull to anyone who has one, I just dont see FIRST putting them in the kit.

As a point that has been stated before, you may have missed it so i will repeat it. Teams have been looking to use USB supported controls for many years now but theres been one continiual issue, no such adapter has existed for the option. Mike and Cross the Road Electronics, since have designed, created and produced this chicklet. They are the first company to do so, and while you may like to look for it from another source for another price, you just wont find it.

On another note i look forward to all new products introduced to us by CTRE, and espically those which may be included in this years and future Kit of Parts.

[Andy Baker]

Nothing against your company I just think FIRST would look to find the same idea but cheaper cost. Also it would mean that they would have to know you would have staff to support any sort of question regarding the product that anyone might have. Dont get me wrong though, Im not trying to bash your product. I think its a great peice that would be usefull to anyone who has one, I just dont see FIRST putting them in the kit.


"Same idea at a cheaper cost?" ?? From what I can tell, no one else in the world supplies this product. $100 is a bargain. This is a one-of-a-kind innovation made by a small company who is focused on providing a service to FIRST teams.

Kudos to Crossing the Road Electronics for providing this great product to the FIRST community. I just hope that the GDC and FIRST engineering deem it legal.

Andy B.

[lukevanoort]

If we had a serial port on the O/I

I'm curious how hard this would be for IFI to implement, along with the cheaper RS232 adapter, it seems like a good middle ground between those that want USB and those that wish to stay with the gameport. Just adding something like a set of DIP switches to determine whether a serial or gameport device is plugged in and having the OI's microcontroller just break up the serial packets into the various variables and sending those to the RC doesn't seem too complex to me,

[chris31]

"Same idea at a cheaper cost?" ?? From what I can tell, no one else in the world supplies this product. $100 is a bargain. This is a one-of-a-kind innovation made by a small company who is focused on providing a service to FIRST teams.

Kudos to Crossing the Road Electronics for providing this great product to the FIRST community. I just hope that the GDC and FIRST engineering deem it legal.

Andy B.

Not to start an argument but there $130 (S&H?), not $100. Yes I understand that there custom and no one else makes them. Like I said, I think its a great poduct. I just dont see that they will be in the KOP. The current control system works and I dont see FIRST adding this just to use diffrent controllers. "If its not broken dont fix it". However, for the teams that want to purchase them I think there great. Im even looking at potentially getting one.

[Dave Flowerday]

I'm curious how hard this would be for IFI to implement, along with the cheaper RS232 adapter, it seems like a good middle ground between those that want USB and those that wish to stay with the gameport. Just adding something like a set of DIP switches to determine whether a serial or gameport device is plugged in and having the OI's microcontroller just break up the serial packets into the various variables and sending those to the RC doesn't seem too complex to me,
Remember, IFI is a business. They need to look at such things with a business perspective (not to say they don't do things for the "good of the community", but they need to be smart about how they spend their money too). As an extremely rough guess, it would at least a staff-month (and probably a lot more) to make this change. As software projects go, that IS a small change, but just think of what that would cost IFI. 1/12 of the cost of an employee for a year (which is a lot higher than just their salary - health benefits, etc. add up). This amounts to many thousands of dollars. How are they going to recoup this? Is it going to help them sell more OIs? Not really, since we'll have to use them one way or another anyway.

One thing that students here will learn when they get out of college is that engineering time is expensive. Even "simple" changes can cost a company lots of money. Every feature or tweak or neat thing you want to do to a product that's in development will cost money. Businesses have to evaluate the business case for each of these changes and determine whether it will pay off or not.

[Joel J]

Well.. I'm guessing at this point that the device is probably legal?

Anyway, I don't know what my team would do, if they should decide to buy one. Personally, I think It would be nice to have a wider selection of joysticks, and lord only knows the gameport joysticks have been exotic and quite expensive (right about the same price as these adapters). 2 adapters for the driver, and one for the operator amounts to a nice amount of money. That might be too much. Maybe just get one, for now, for the operator, depending on the game, or make a custom box for the operator and then invest two into being able to get some new(er) USB joysticks for the driver. That will be a decision for the "higher ups," lol, ifjjasasjdi90. This is a new idea, but I'll say that the price makes the decision hard. I don't think it matters. There is enough need for a device like this that adoption won't take that long. If you could get a plug at the kickoff, then everyone would know what your device does, and you'd be setting sail right away.

[Gdeaver]

I know it's a little late in the development cycle but, Cypress Semi Kind of specializes in this type of interface. After this batch some of their solutions may be more cost effective.

[MikeDubreuil]

I just dont see that they will be in the KOP. The current control system works and I dont see FIRST adding this just to use diffrent controllers. "If its not broken dont fix it".
The joysticks FIRST is giving in the kits are abysmal compared to the older CH Flightsticks. Of course that's because Analog joysticks are 1980s technology. It's increasingly difficult to find joysticks that work with the current Operator Interface.

It is broken, that's why this product exists. FIRST is forcing us to use outdated interface technology. FIRST isn't going to create enough economic incentive for joystick manufacturers to produce Analog joysticks. Eventually IFI will have to change or FIRST will provide us or allow us to buy these Chicklets.

The fact that the Chicklet allow you to connect a game pad is just a unique feature.

I have reservations about whether CrossTheRoadElectronics would meet 2006 vendor requirements. The capital to create enough boards to timely deliver the goods is huge. Yet, AndyMark is somehow able to make due. We've ordered from them and they can deliver. Oh well, I'm not an expert at supply chain. For everyones sake I hope they are a vendor in 2007.

[Mike Copioli]

I know it's a little late in the development cycle but, Cypress Semi Kind of specializes in this type of interface. After this batch some of their solutions may be more cost effective.

Yes, Cypress does make USB host and peripheral Devices, however the host devices are the physical layer only. They provide a USB 2.0 physical interface to USB devices. This is only part of the USB protocol. The host is not a stand alone device. You need to interface a micro-controller and have an understanding of the USB data protcols to use this device. This is what Windows and Linix does. We use a similar device in our product to perform the lower level fuctions of the protocol. Yes we could use the Cypress chip instead of the Maxim chip we use in it's place. However the Cypress Chip is twice as expensive as the Maxim.


look up this number on Digikey


Cypress Part #CY7C67300



Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Mike Copioli]

The user manual and FAQ are now up and available for viewing. The tables are a little fuzzy but legable. The manual contains the final list of supported devices.

http://www.crosstheroadelectronics.com/downloads/USBChicklet_usermanual_rev1.pdf

http://www.crosstheroadelectronics.com/downloads/USBChicklet_FAQ_rev1.pdf

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Madison]

Perhaps this is a ridiculous question, but will there be a protective case or something over this device to save it from abuse? It seems fragile.

[Mike Copioli]

Perhaps this is a ridiculous question, but will there be a protective case or something over this device to save it from abuse? It seems fragile.

There will not be a protective case provided. There is a very good reason for this. When the Chicklet was designed, the PCB was dimensioned so it could be connected side by side with another Chicklet. The spacing between the joyports is very tight, It's less than .25". This made it difficult to find an enclosure that the Chicklet would fit into and still be able to connect to the O/I side by side. Also, and probably the most important reason, It would have increased the price by about $15-$20. Enclosures are expensive, machining of the enclosures is expensive. Custom made enclosure, witch the Chicklet would require, are even more expensive. But have no fear the devices are pretty robust. I know, I have tortured the protos quit a bit and have had now known issues. Like the camera, you can always make your own enclosure for the device. If you are to do this you will need to make an enclosure that allows the user to see the state LED.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Joe Ross]

It looks like you can now order the USB Chiklet directly from IFI: http://www.ifirobotics.com/usb-chicklet.shtml

[DanDon]

It looks like you can now order the USB Chiklet directly from IFI: http://www.ifirobotics.com/usb-chicklet.shtml

A hint to the legality of the Chicklet? Hmm...:confused:

[chris31]

I guess the struck a deal with IFI. Now to see if one comes in the KOP.

[EnderWiggin]

IMO the ideal way to control the robot is through a pistol grip system, like the ones the R/C Car racers use.
I found this one with a USB output for PC R/C games (ya, go figure):
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=VRCCP002

Would this work?

[Mike Copioli]

IMO the ideal way to control the robot is through a pistol grip system, like the ones the R/C Car racers use.
I found this one with a USB output for PC R/C games (ya, go figure):
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=VRCCP002

Would this work?


If this is an HID device, we probably can support it. The only way can know this is for you to send us the device. Or connect it to windows. Windows will be able to tell you if it is HID. We can update the firmware on the Chicklet to include this device. There is a $25 fee for this service. Either way you will still need to send us the device.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Astronouth7303]

Is there a way to connect a generic HID device and then make a custom mapping?

[chris31]

Is there a way to connect a generic HID device and then make a custom mapping?

From the post above I think you have to send it to them so that they can put a new firmware on it.

[Astronouth7303]

It is broken, that's why this product exists. FIRST is forcing us to use outdated interface technology.

It's not as broken as you make it sound. It is antiquated and no one makes a decent controller anymore. But it's also really, really easy to add your own stuff.

A new switch? Two leads. I could do that. A pot? Two or three wires. Anyone who understands what a soldering iron does could wire custom controls. Not so much with USB or anything else.

I'm very glad that FIRST allowed this device to be used. Too bad they just didn't change the rule to allow other power sources. (In fact, I think they made it stricter, I don't think you can have a computer connected to the dashboard, even. :( )

[ozrien]

Is there a way to connect a generic HID device and then make a custom mapping?

We originally wanted USB-Chicklet to do just that but due to time constraints of development, software validation, production, and shipment, USB-Chicklet supports a fixed list of devices. However we expect next season's USB-Chicklet to support ANY HID device, and provide a GUI to allow custom mapping of analog axes and buttons.

Note however that custom mapping of a SUPPORTED USB device is possible through user calibration mode. And that for a fee ($25) we can reflash your chicklet to support a new HID device.

Omar Zrien
Chief Software Engineer
Cross The Road Electronics
www.crosstheroadelectronics.com

[underwood]

oh yeah, about time! wii-mote anyone?:D








(and just imagine driving with a DDR mat!!!)

[Travis Hoffman]

This question is for Mike Copioil (sic).....

There are existing, inexpensive, PS2 to USB adapters currently available that permit you to use PS2 controllers with the PS3. I can't 100% confirm it, and it may depend upon the brand of adapter you purchase, but I believe most if not all of these adapters are HID-compatible. Is it potentially possible to program the firmware to accept such a configuration?

Also - the XBOX360 controller has a detachable rechargeable battery pack (or an adapter which permits you to use standard AA's). Presumably, you must use the USB Play and Charge adapter to physically connect the controller to the Chicklet - will the chicklet charge the battery while the controller is connected? Should the battery be removed?

I imagine technically, using external AA batteries or the rechargeable battery in the XBOX360 controller violates the external power source rule. In what configuration is the XBOX360 a legal controller for use in FRC?

[Mike Copioli]

This question is for Mike Copioil (sic).....

There are existing, inexpensive, PS2 to USB adapters currently available that permit you to use PS2 controllers with the PS3. I can't 100% confirm it, and it may depend upon the brand of adapter you purchase, but I believe most if not all of these adapters are HID-compatible. Is it potentially possible to program the firmware to accept such a configuration?

It would make sense that if we could support the PS3 controller, we can support an adapted PS2 controller. As is the case with the X-box and X-box 360. The question is: Is the PS3 HID? And the answer is: I don't know. If we had one, we could find out. I would imagine the device being similar to the X-box 360, which is a HUB. If this is the case, supporting it becomes more difficult. It can be done, but it would require a more drastic change in the firmware.

Also - the XBOX360 controller has a detachable rechargeable battery pack (or an adapter which permits you to use standard AA's).

I assume you are refering to the wireless 360. The wired controller does not require batteries. We currently do not support the wireless 360 controller. We do however support the wireless Logitech Rumblepad 2.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Sym]

It would make sense that if we could support the PS3 controller, we can support an adapted PS2 controller. As is the case with the X-box and X-box 360. The question is: Is the PS3 HID? And the answer is: I don't know. If we had one, we could find out. I would imagine the device being similar to the X-box 360, which is a HUB. If this is the case, supporting it becomes more difficult. It can be done, but it would require a more drastic change in the firmware.



I assume you are refering to the wireless 360. The wired controller does not require batteries. We currently do not support the wireless 360 controller. We do however support the wireless Logitech Rumblepad 2.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

Mike,

Before we saw your product, we were going to build our own. We intended to use something along the lines of a PIC24HJ128GP206(http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en024685). Using the input ports on the microcontroller, we were going to make our own USB to Serial Xbox adapter. We learned the input pulse codes from this page (http://euc.jp/periphs/xbox-controller.en.html) and we had an experienced programmer who was going to write the HID driver. After the inputs had been read they would output to the serial port we were going to add to the microcontroller. The point of it was to simplify the controls to be read by the robot control interface.

Now that your product is out, ours would be obsolete. But just for the record, would that have worked? Or did I spend hours drawing the schematics and designing the PCB, all to find out there was a major component I was missing? I know what I said before is confusing, but the just of it, is could you use a PIC24HJ128GP206 to do the same thing this adapter does?

[Mike Copioli]

But just for the record, would that have worked? Or did I spend hours drawing the schematics and designing the PCB, all to find out there was a major component I was missing? I know what I said before is confusing, but the just of it, is could you use a PIC24HJ128GP206 to do the same thing this adapter does?


To answer your question. No. You are missing a host controller. The Pic only has hardware support for a device, not a host. The good news is there are Host controller IC's available. Some use USART some use SPI some use I2C. To answer the second part of your question, again.. no. You did not waste any time. If you learned something from the process, your time was not wasted. We failed several times before we were actually sucessful.

The 16 bit PIC will do the job. We use a 32 bit ARM and an 8 bit pic. But the 24 series should have enough power to support HID. Our next revision we will probanly eliminate the ARM chip. Actually an 18 series(8 bit) is all you need for HID. Remember this is hardware, it is not loaded up with a bulky operating system like Windows or Linux.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Sym]

To answer your question. No. You are missing a host controller. The Pic only has hardware support for a device, not a host. The good news is there are Host controller IC's available. Some use USART some use SPI some use I2C. To answer the second part of your question, again.. no. You did not waste any time. If you learned something from the process, your time was not wasted. We failed several times before we were actually sucessful.

The 16 bit PIC will do the job. We use a 32 bit ARM and an 8 bit pic. But the 24 series should have enough power to support HID. Our next revision we will probanly eliminate the ARM chip. Actually an 18 series(8 bit) is all you need for HID. Remember this is hardware, it is not loaded up with a bulky operating system like Windows or Linux.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

Ah, so thats why there was more then one IC on that PCB. I couldn't find the time between reports from the Xbox controller, so I just picked the most powerful PIC I could find. (I learned later how it worked)

Am I right in saying that the next version would be consideribly cheaper to produce without the ARM chip?


Edit: I hope I'm not insulting anyone by saying this but to get an Xbox controller to plug into the adapter for sale you need to modify the connecter. Luckily, Microsoft uses a modified USB plug for all of their Xbox controllers. You can buy the adapter or make it (Soldering 4 contacts).

http://www.llamma.com/xbox/Mods/xbox_controller_to_pc_usb.htm

When making it, I believe you leave the yellow wire hanging free(cut it and tape it to the Xbox cord), unless the USB cable you are hacking apart is grounded. Just use tin foil to repair the shielding.

[Mike Copioli]

Am I right in saying that the next version would be consideribly cheaper to produce without the ARM chip?


Edit: I hope I'm not insulting anyone by saying this but to get an Xbox controller to plug into the adapter for sale you need to modify the connecter. Luckily, Microsoft uses a modified USB plug for all of their Xbox controllers. You can buy the adapter or make it (Soldering 4 contacts)..

The ARM chip is only one part of the cost. The major factor in the cost is the physical interface. We are taking data and converting it into analog and digital output. This is a very unusual thing to have to do. The logical way to interface to the O/I would be through a serial port or SPI. If all that was required was serial com, the Chicklets cost would be reduced significantly.

We do have hardware that does this. We will be releasing it after the FIRST season.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[team540pr2007]

i think our kit included the USB controller port. maybe i'm mistaken but i'm pretty sure we have this

[Choi9111]

Anybody thinking of PS3 6-axis controller to drive robot...or is it just me? -_-

[xrabohrok]

I know that this adapter is for the purpose of hooking the computer to the robot with a computer that doesn't have a serial port (or a convienient one anyway), but has anyone explored the idea of actually using this for a joystick? I have this totally awesome joystick with throttle and stuff...

[chris31]

I know that this adapter is for the purpose of hooking the computer to the robot with a computer that doesn't have a serial port (or a convienient one anyway), but has anyone explored the idea of actually using this for a joystick? I have this totally awesome joystick with throttle and stuff...

You must be confused. Please read this thread. This is for connecting USB joysticks to the OI and not for any other purpose.

[Peter Randall]

Mike,

Love the new USB chicklet. How do we read the bits from wheel and aux for buttons 5-12 using easyC?

Thanks

PGR

[Mike Copioli]

That is a good question. I think Adam from Intellitek would be the best person to answer that question. I am not familiar with easy C. I have sent a link to this thread to him.

[Kingofl337]

Hey here is a program that will show you what the chicklet is returning.



Mike,

Love the new USB chicklet. How do we read the bits from wheel and aux for buttons 5-12 using easyC?

Thanks

PGR

[SLA]

A device that converts the operator interface 15pin joystick ports, into a USB host, now exists. The device is called USB_chicklet. Check it out at www.crosstheroadelectronics.com. Also please provide feedback about our new website.

Hey, I got a question.
Does that USB chicklet work on PS3 or PS2 controllers? On its display, it said that it can only work on X-Box 360. Also, is it legal to use it if it did work?
Thank you in advance.

Regards,

[Travis Hoffman]

Hey, I got a question.
Does that USB chicklet work on PS3 or PS2 controllers? On its display, it said that it can only work on X-Box 360. Also, is it legal to use it if it did work?
Thank you in advance.

Regards,

For those wishing to use a PS2 controller, I suggest you check out this supported device:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=11,CONTENTID=6951

Layout looks familiar, eh? You can find these on eBay for around $13, shipping included. I believe Mike C. claims the action on these sticks is very repeatable and reliable.

Some may still see value in finding a way to make the PS2 controller work with the chicklet, since so many people already own PS2 controllers. In order for this to work, however, the community would have to identify a standard PS2 to USB adapter device that everyone agreed to purchase and use, and someone would have to pay the Chicklet guys $25 and send them a PS2 controller/USB adapter combo so they can determine if that arrangement is compatible with their device and program the Chicklet firmware to recognize it.

Since you'd have to buy something anyway, and the PS2-esque Logitech controllers are readily available online, I suggest people consider purchasing those and forget about the PS2. It's not like Logitech is some third-rate manufacturer of gaming controllers. They usually turn out a quality product. And remember, by not having to use a PS2/USB adapter, that's one less device in the chain that can fail, and your controls won't be as cluttered.

And then there's always the XBOX360 wired controllers, you Playstation fanboys!!! :p

[Guy Davidson]

I'd like to thank Mike C and the rest of the Chicklet design team for the product. We just got ours up and running, and it works really well. We got the 360 controller at 360, but then went and got the Logitech Dual Action based on Mike's reccomendation on the other thread. That one works really well for our purposes - it's nice and compact, and the axes are pretty reliable. Also, the buttons are numbered, which makes it really easy to code.

-Guy

[Jared Russell]

Many thanks to Mike and Team 217 for creating a great product!

Using a Chicklet with the Logitech 3D Pro, the results are outstanding. Full forward is always exactly 254...full reverse is always exactly 0...neutral is always exactly 127!

I would highly recommend the Chicklet (and for that matter the Logitech 3D Pro, which has some really nice springs) to all teams - and that twist axis can sure come in handy :]

[Mike Copioli]

Many thanks to Mike and Team 217 for creating a great product!

Using a Chicklet with the Logitech 3D Pro, the results are outstanding. Full forward is always exactly 254...full reverse is always exactly 0...neutral is always exactly 127!

I would highly recommend the Chicklet (and for that matter the Logitech 3D Pro, which has some really nice springs) to all teams - and that twist axis can sure come in handy :]

Thank you for the feed back.

[WillZZZ]

Our team got a Logitech Dual Action gamepad like the one shown here:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=11,CONTENTID=6951
and we are having problems with the output values from the controller on the analog joysticks thru the USB Chiklet. For the neutral everything is 0 but going full backward or full to the left goes to 127 as expected BUT if we move the analog sticks fully forward or full to the right they output a value from 0-17. I thought it was suppose to output a value from 0-127? This is unacceptable though I have a feeling (according to my mentor) we may have a newer hardware revision of the Dual Action Gamepad because when I plug it directly into the computer it works fine. Do you have more exact specifics of which model of the Logitech Dual Action gamepad actually works as specified? Please reply ASAP as our team is currently stuck.

[Mike Copioli]

Our team got a Logitech Dual Action gamepad like the one shown here:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=11,CONTENTID=6951
and we are having problems with the output values from the controller on the analog joysticks thru the USB Chiklet. For the neutral everything is 0 but going full backward or full to the left goes to 127 as expected BUT if we move the analog sticks fully forward or full to the right they output a value from 0-17. I thought it was suppose to output a value from 0-127? This is unacceptable though I have a feeling (according to my mentor) we may have a newer hardware revision of the Dual Action Gamepad because when I plug it directly into the computer it works fine. Do you have more exact specifics of which model of the Logitech Dual Action gamepad actually works as specified? Please reply ASAP as our team is currently stuck.

How are determining these values? Plug the OI into dashboard. What are the values (on dashboard) for x,y,aux,and wheel? Also what mode is the Chicklet in?

[WillZZZ]

These are the values we are getting from the Dashboard plugged directly into the OI. The Chiklet is in the regular mode and on the left analog axis, putting the axis straight up yields max values of 15 or 16 on the Y and also 15 or 16 on the X when the axis is straight to the right. When the axis is straight down and left, we get normal values of 127 on the X and Y. This same phenomenon is occuring on the right analog axis going straight up yields 14 or 15 on the Wheel and 14/15 on the Aux going straight to the right. Going straight to the left we get the normal value of 127 on the Aux and going straight down we also get the normal value of 127 on the wheel. This is mode 2 on the Logitech Dual Action gamepad which is supported according to your manual. We have tried different modes and they yield the same results. As you can see on our Logitech Dual Action gamepad, when the analog sticks on going full up or to the right they yield only a max of 15/16 or 14/15 instead of the full 127 like normal. The joystick itself I believe is NOT defective as I have plugged it directly into the computer, loaded the drivers and it works fine in Windows. Maybe this is a newer hardware revision of the Logitech Dual Action Gamepad? Anyways our team due to this problem is switching to the Wired Xbox 360 controller. Hopefully this is a isolated problem for the Logitech Dual Action gamepad.

[Mike Copioli]

These are the values we are getting from the Dashboard plugged directly into the OI. The Chiklet is in the regular mode and on the left analog axis, putting the axis straight up yields max values of 15 or 16 on the Y and also 15 or 16 on the X when the axis is straight to the right. When the axis is straight down and left, we get normal values of 127 on the X and Y. This same phenomenon is occuring on the right analog axis going straight up yields 14 or 15 on the Wheel and 14/15 on the Aux going straight to the right. Going straight to the left we get the normal value of 127 on the Aux and going straight down we also get the normal value of 127 on the wheel. This is mode 2 on the Logitech Dual Action gamepad which is supported according to your manual. We have tried different modes and they yield the same results. As you can see on our Logitech Dual Action gamepad, when the analog sticks on going full up or to the right they yield only a max of 15/16 or 14/15 instead of the full 127 like normal. The joystick itself I believe is NOT defective as I have plugged it directly into the computer, loaded the drivers and it works fine in Windows. Maybe this is a newer hardware revision of the Logitech Dual Action Gamepad? Anyways our team due to this problem is switching to the Wired Xbox 360 controller. Hopefully this is a isolated problem for the Logitech Dual Action gamepad.


Have you calibrated the Chicklet? If not you will get the same results with the 360 controller. You should see a center value of 127. A full forward value from 240 to 254 and a full reverse value of 0 to 15. This is documented in the user manual. The full range of 0 - 254 may not occur. This is not an issue. There is a scaling function at the end of the user manual that can be implimented to correct for this. But what you are describing does not make any sense. You should never see a value of 127 at an extreme of travel. 127 should only be scene when the joysticks are centered. Try calibrating your Chicklet and see if this fixes the problem. You must follow the calibration procedure in its entirety including analog calibration and digital button selection. If you are still having issues contact me at mcopioli@crosstheroadelectronics.com