On photographs and FVC competitions...

[Billfred]

The topic came up in the Toronto Championships thread about the lack of photos of 1114's robot. I'll copy over the main discussion:


You may not see a picture of their robot until championships. Why you ask? With VEX there is nothing from stopping teams from cloning their robot. Why would they want that. Each team should design their own robots for competition. That's what FIRST is about. You have been inspired by 1114 in the past and I know that will happen again this year. Try to build a robot to compete with them not the same as them. When you succeed then it will be your work and ideas that have come to the front.
Steve, This ability to modify bots between ccompetitions (or even between matches) is one of the elephants in the corner of the FVC "room".

Would you want to ask any and everyone who has a picture of the 1114 Toronto Bot to not post it anywhere on the internet?

Would you want to ask all teams that saw the bot (and all the other bots), and are going to participate in another Championship, to not use any ideas they picked up from other teams during the Toronto Championship? Or is it OK to only use ideas from teams that didn't do as well as 1114?

In the exreme, would you want to urge teams not to look in textbooks to get ideas instead of thinking them up on their own (of course not, but I am exaggerating to make a point)?

I suspect that the Genie is out of the bottle any time a team participates in a Championship, a scrimmage, a practice, an exhibition/demo, etc.

I suggest that trying to keep 1114's Toronto bot hidden from all teams that were not at the Toronto Championship (after exposing it to all the teams and all the cameras that were there) is not going to work.

Isn't there a better alternative that involves bragging about the cleverness in the current bot and then building an even better one for 1114's next competition?

Maybe this is a topic for a new thread?

Blake

Now, I know for a fact that such redesigning happens--several robots I saw at Orangeburg looked completely different (and strikingly similar to Orangeburg champion 171 (now 1539)) in Atlanta.

Is there a difference between sharing designs in FRC and copying them from a photograph in FVC?

Will this result in triplets or quadruplets or septuplets by Atlanta, only fielded by unaffiliated teams?

Is it possible to expect a team's design won't be copied once it's seen in open competition?

[MrForbes]

I'm really eager to see some pictures from the Arizona tournament, since I didn't make it up there.....

(I do have some video, because my video camera did make it to the event)

[gblake]

The topic came up in the Toronto Championships thread about the lack of photos of 1114's robot. I'll copy over the main discussion:

Now, I know for a fact that such redesigning happens--several robots I saw at Orangeburg looked completely different (and strikingly similar to Orangeburg champion 171 (now 1539)) in Atlanta.
Folks,

The following lines are a repeat of something I posted in the other thread before I noticed that BillFred had created this one.

That (cloning/copying) is definitely going to happen and is 100% fair according to the rules.

So long as the rules remain unchanged, the only way I can think of to stay ahead of it (cloning/copying), is to constantly improve your strategy, your mechanisms, your software, your collaboration with your allies, and your driving. Once a machine is unveiled, the FVC rules allow other teams to absorb it's design in whole or in part into their machines.

I have been assuming that team with a truly complete full-season strategy will look forward to this; and will keep one or two tricks up their sleeves that they use to sustain a winning streak, rather than showing all of their cards in their first competition.

Blake
PS: I know what I espoused above is way, way easier said than done.....

[Ian Curtis]

It will result in copy cats, but chances are, the copys won't live up the originals. If 1114 fields a design, chances are it has gone through extensive building and testing. Sure team 1234 might see it, but if they lack the experience and mechanical genius of 1114, they probably won't be able to produce a replica that works well. I do feel however that this rule will lead to a more even game, not because 1234 will copy 1114, but becuase 9999, will see 1114's design and say, "Hmmm, I bet we can take this concept further" and base upon it an even better design.

I know in FLL, when we went to Nationals/Championships/Whatever-they're-called-nowadays we certainly upgraded our robot based on ideas of what we had seen other teams do. But we never copied anyone.

I'd go as far to say it's harder to copy someone piece for piece than it is to say, "Hey! 1114 used geared down motors and a few sets of tank tread to build their collector. I wonder if we can do it?" Chances are your design won't look similar to 1114's but it will probably work pretty decently.

[VEN]

I think that taking someone's design by looking at pictures is part of learning. If scientists wouldn't have worked together and shared their discoveries/information we would still be in the stone age. Someone creates something. Someone else looks at it and says "hey, that's neato" and either builds the same thing to see how the idea works or expands on it. I think FIRST is not about having a competition with only one first place. Everyone should help others suceed as much as they do. Sure I sound like one of those guys who says "Everyone's a winner" but in the end we're not striving to win a competition, we're striving to make this world better in the future. What's better...one team who wins everytime or all the teams who are successful, and who, in the future, can put their brains together and do something we only dream of right now.

[Jessica Boucher]

This discussion is hauntingly reminiscent of FRC in the early days of alliances, in which teams refused to post robot pictures for these very same reasons.

Now, look at where we are. Although some still choose to hold back, the majority feel that posting adds to the collective knowledge and makes every team better.

Although there is one huge difference here (there is no ship date), I feel that this will eventually even itself out to how FRC is today. Some still won't post, and that is their choice, but many more will, and it will naturally take game play to a higher level than if teams held back information.

This isn't patent law, but an educational competition. However, I think FVC is so new that it needs to naturally make its way through discussions like these and many others. So, give it time.

[fredliu168]

Personally, Our team is probably copying some of 1114's design. I spend hours (literally many many hours) looking at 1114 pics and vids. We're not going to look the same as 1114, but we're taking their ideas to lift their arm, and the use of feeders/chains to collect balls.

The reason for this, is we are lacking full time mentors, and none of our team members truly have any engineering experience. I know it does not justify us copying 1114, but realize that once a great idea comes out, there are often many companies that slightly modify and copy it. FIRST is meant to reflect the real world, and thats what people do in the real world.

[Synergy1848]

Personally, Our team is probably copying some of 1114's design. I spend hours (literally many many hours) looking at 1114 pics and vids. We're not going to look the same as 1114, but we're taking their ideas to lift their arm, and the use of feeders/chains to collect balls.

The reason for this, is we are lacking full time mentors, and none of our team members truly have any engineering experience. I know it does not justify us copying 1114, but realize that once a great idea comes out, there are often many companies that slightly modify and copy it. FIRST is meant to reflect the real world, and thats what people do in the real world.

and how exactally will you explain this in your engeneering journal?

[Holtzman]

I don't know how this got blown so far our or proportion. This season, our FVC team decided not to post detailed pictures of our robot. We feel we have a very unique design, and are very proud of it. The nature of the FVC allows teams lots of time to upgrade designs, and even emulate others. We understand this and are supportive of the rules as they are written. We hope teams will be inspired by what we’ve done, and use this inspiration to strive for an even higher level of excellence. That being said, we don't want to give away our competitive advantage.

There are a great number of FRC teams who do not post pictures of their robots until after build season. We will be more than happy to post pictures of our robot after FVC build season... sometime after April 13th.

FRC 1114 has always been very proud to share our designs. This off season, we've given drawings of our FRC drive train to 8 teams. Our helpful spirit extends to the vex realm, where we've mentored one team, and helped many others. Any team who came up to us in the pits was welcomed with open arms, and granted the full tour of the robot. They were free to take whatever pictures they wanted. That being said, we are not going to go out of our way to post pictures to make it easy for everyone to replicate the creative elements of our FVC robot.

I believe very strongly that the design process is as much important an aspect of FIRST as any other. If two teams work together in a collaborative effort, that’s one thing, but blatantly copying another teams design is another thing entirely. By doing so you’re missing out on the value of design process. The teams who came to our pits and talked to us about our robot were able to gain a glimpse into our design process. They learned about the mistakes we made, the obstacles we faced, and various iterations of our design. A team who just mimics what they see in a picture, loses out on the on a good chunk of the design process.

In school life, there are specific rules about academic dishonesty. We all do our own assignments so that we actually learn something from them, rather than just copying someone elses. Teams should go through the design process, from conception, to final implementation because this is the way we learn. I believe this is the reason that 1114 has improved so much over the last few years. We have always looked to the success of the powerhouses for inspiration. Look for ideas, concepts, possibilities, but put in the work yourself. Build prototypes, and proof of concept models.

So what am I really trying to say in this very long winded post? 1114 still won't be releasing photos of our robot. If you need help or advice with design, build, or programming, send me or any of the other 1114 members a PM. We’d be glad to help you out. Just don’t expect us to steal all your fun and give you all the answers.

Good luck to all teams. FVC1114 looks forward to seeing you in Atlanta!

[Jonathan Norris]

I am totally in agreement with Tyler on this one. The nature of FVC makes it such that there is no 'ship date', and with the how quickly you can build one of these robots they have the full right to protect their intellectual property (yes I am making this connection to copyrights). They are in a different situation then my teams were, our season was over after the Toronto tournament, so we decided we would share what we came up with during our FVC 'season'. However, if we were in the same situation as 1114 where our season extends to the championship I would have had second thoughts about sharing our design. Especially if we had put the amount of thought and great engineering design into our robot as 1114 has.

I made the mistake of posting a picture of the finals at the Toronto championship with our robot and 1114's in the background. Tyler had the picture taken down which was my mistake for posting in the first place. At the time i had the same mindset of posting pictures after FRC regionals, not worrying who's robot is in the picture. But FVC is NOT FRC, as i have stated before the time situations are much different and I believe teams should be allowed to protect their intellectual property in FVC. My apologies to the 1114 crew, and good luck keeping that beautiful robot under wraps. I will be very surprised if that robot is not in the finals at the Championship.

[TheOtherGuy]

I agree with the last 2 posts in that the team has the decision not to post pics or videos on their robots because it is their right not to allow other teams to copy their ideas or designs, and it takes away from the creative aspect of the sport. I personally do not wish to see Simbotics robot until nationals because I feel our team needs to develop and integrate our own ideas into our robot. That is what brings the competition to life: seeing each others ideas in action.
However, because our robot is far from its finished product and because we feel it is okay, we may post several pics of our robot if anyone wants to see it, and there are several movies on google (this (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=azvex16) is the final match)

[Richard Wallace]

I am totally in agreement with Tyler on this one. The nature of FVC makes it such that there is no 'ship date', and with the how quickly you can build one of these robots they have the full right to protect their intellectual property (yes I am making this connection to copyrights). ...I agree completely that FVC teams should be able to do this.

But I wonder if, legally, teams may have already surrendered rights to likenesses of their machines to FIRST as part of registration? I know that FIRST requires (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/consent_release_form.pdf) human participants to surrender those rights (the link is to the 2006 Consent / Release Form) as a condition of participation -- not sure if that requirement extends to robots also.

Does anyone know the details of the FVC event registrations agreement? I didn't see any mention of this in the FAQ (http://www.innovationfirst.com/fvc/faqs.shtml).

Anyway, even if FIRST does have rights to use images of competing FVC robots, I still agree that they should exercise those rights in a way that protects a team's design ideas until that team is ready to publish images.

[Tristan Lall]

But I wonder if, legally, teams may have already surrendered rights to likenesses of their machines to FIRST as part of registration? I know that FIRST requires (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/consent_release_form.pdf) human participants to surrender those rights (the link is to the 2006 Consent / Release Form) as a condition of participation -- not sure if that requirement extends to robots also.As participants in an exhibition open to the public, and barring any restrictions imposed by the organizers and the venue upon their customers and exhibitors, anyone has every right to photograph robots and to distribute those photographs. In fact, photography is encouraged in most areas of the Ontario Science Centre (a science museum), where the event took place. If a team wishes not to distribute photographs of their own robot, that's fine. But they should not depend on the co-operation of the public at large to preserve their secret—the photographs are the photographer's property, and the photographer is free to do as he pleases with them.

I think that 1114 realizes all of this, and is just guarding against excessive exposure, in order to retain their competitive advantage as long as possible. If someone does post a photo, the team has no recourse other than to politely request that it be withdrawn by its owner. And apparently, it sometimes works. (Or did you twist Jonathan's arm to get that photo to disappear?)

[Dave Flowerday]

I made the mistake of posting a picture of the finals at the Toronto championship with our robot and 1114's in the background. Tyler had the picture taken down which was my mistake for posting in the first place.
I wasn't going to pipe up on this thread, but... Wow. I totally respect 1114's decision not to publish pictures on their part, but I fail to see what right they would have to disallow others from posting pictures of their robot. I hope I am misinterpreting what you said here. Even requesting that a picture be withdrawn because it shows their robot seems like it's crossing a line to me.

The way I see it, once you've demonstrated your machine in public you can't try to keep the lid on it anymore. Like I said, if they don't wish to post pictures, more power to them, but anyone else who was there and feels like posting pictures should feel free to (in my opinion).

[Barry Bonzack]

The way I see it, once you've demonstrated your machine in public you can't try to keep the lid on it anymore. Like I said, if they don't wish to post pictures, more power to them, but anyone else who was there and feels like posting pictures should feel free to (in my opinion).

It is my belief that everyone has knowledge because it was taught to them by a mentor figure; this means it is one's responsibility to then pass on that knowledge to some one else. The builders of the FVC 1114 robot at some point must have been taught these skills by friends, family, or mentors, therefore no knowledge should be kept secret because it was not kept secret from them. Our robots are not out for money here in FIRST which is why copyright laws do not apply. 1114 is a respectable team in many aspects, their robot has competed in public, and its whatever pictures have been taken can be used to inspire new ways of thinking in other students that have not been taught by mentors. This is how technology advances.

[KathieK]

But I wonder if, legally, teams may have already surrendered rights to likenesses of their machines to FIRST as part of registration? I know that FIRST requires (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2006/consent_release_form.pdf) human participants to surrender those rights (the link is to the 2006 Consent / Release Form) as a condition of participation -- not sure if that requirement extends to robots also.

Does anyone know the details of the FVC event registrations agreement? I didn't see any mention of this in the FAQ (http://www.innovationfirst.com/fvc/faqs.shtml).
There is no such thing as an FVC event registration agreement, at least not for ConnVex.
Wow, while I understand and respect the decision not to want to reveal a robot's design via photos, it's seems a bit ungracious to me. FIRST isn't about the competition, it's about the inspiration so I agree that teams should not blatently copy but participate in the design process. However, I am letting teams that are coming to ConnVex know right now... I have worked hard to find a photographer to document the event, and have invited media to come to report on the event. There's no guarantee that your robot's photo will not be displayed somewhere. In fact, I hope it is, because then the word about FIRST will have spread!

[Jonathan Norris]

I wasn't going to pipe up on this thread, but... Wow. I totally respect 1114's decision not to publish pictures on their part, but I fail to see what right they would have to disallow others from posting pictures of their robot. I hope I am misinterpreting what you said here. Even requesting that a picture be withdrawn because it shows their robot seems like it's crossing a line to me.

I can see what you are getting at, but you got to remember the difference between FVC and FRC here. If it was after a FRC competition, as I said before, I would not think twice. But this being a FVC competition where there is time for teams to study other robots designs and implements portions of them for future competitions. I feel that if a very (extreemly) successful robot like 1114 decides not to share their design with the world that is totally acceptable.

Let me relate this more to FRC, throughout the season I tend to study and observe as many robot designs as I can. But, because it is FRC is it very difficult to implement some of the great design characteristics i have studied during the season. Usually what most teams will attempt to do is work on an off-season prototype to test out some of the new designs they have encountered during the previous season. Which is something we are doing, building a tank drive system, 1114 being one of the teams who we have referenced for design ideas. However, even in FRC new designs are implemented based off other robots designs. Look at the 2005 game, where it seemed like 90% of the capping teams ended up using a variation of a T-bar design to manipulate the tetras. Even a team like 330, the beach bots, who had a very successful ball manipulation mechanism, which i remember distinctly from the Sacramento regional that year, moved on to another variation of the T-bar design.

My point here is that 1114 has this game figured out, and right now is not the time yet for them to be sharing their design. If they do now there will be imitators, and that is not in the spirit of FIRST. Its too bad for the community that because of the nature of FVC that we will all have to wait till after the championships to learn from their design.

edit:
(Or did you twist Jonathan's arm to get that photo to disappear?)
haha no twisting required, as you can (hopefully) see I understand where they are coming from.

[Karthik]

I wasn't going to pipe up on this thread, but... Wow. I totally respect 1114's decision not to publish pictures on their part, but I fail to see what right they would have to disallow others from posting pictures of their robot. I hope I am misinterpreting what you said here. Even requesting that a picture be withdrawn because it shows their robot seems like it's crossing a line to me.

The way I see it, once you've demonstrated your machine in public you can't try to keep the lid on it anymore. Like I said, if they don't wish to post pictures, more power to them, but anyone else who was there and feels like posting pictures should feel free to (in my opinion).

Just to clarify, Team 1114 has decided not to post pictures of their Vex robot until after the Championships in Atlanta. The team is definitely not trying to control the publishing of photos by others. This would both be foolish and out of line. Anyone who has a picture has every right to upload it as they wish.

[N7UJJ]

I'm really eager to see some pictures from the Arizona tournament, since I didn't make it up there.....

(I do have some video, because my video camera did make it to the event)

Go to
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/components/scrapbook/default.php?sectiondetailid=47573&sc_id=1165285012&PHPSESSID=98d4051bc21bae47f101578e7d0c6b68

and click on pictures and videos

Allan

[MrForbes]

thanks! (I already found the site....but now everyone else can see it too)

And thanks for your hard work putting on the Tournament!

[Steve W]

There is no such thing as an FVC event registration agreement, at least not for ConnVex.
Wow, while I understand and respect the decision not to want to reveal a robot's design via photos, it's seems a bit ungracious to me. FIRST isn't about the competition, it's about the inspiration so I agree that teams should not blatently copy but participate in the design process. However, I am letting teams that are coming to ConnVex know right now... I have worked hard to find a photographer to document the event, and have invited media to come to report on the event. There's no guarantee that your robot's photo will not be displayed somewhere. In fact, I hope it is, because then the word about FIRST will have spread!

Kathie I am really surprised that you say that this is not a competition when you are hosting a competition not a demonstration. VEX is totally different from FRC. The time between regional competitions is not 5 weeks but months apart. You can take your robot back home and build a completely new robot between events.
1114 has always been gracious and shared their knowledge, just not during build and competitions. Teams have been awed and inspired by them. They have become icons of the north. I am tired of our team members worrying about 1114. That said 1114 has come to our rescue and I know that events that I am at if 1114 is there they are the first team that I direct teams in trouble to. Ungracious? Definitely not!!!!!

[KathieK]

Kathie I am really surprised that you say that this is not a competition when you are hosting a competition not a demonstration. I said FIRST is not about the competition, and I meant that the competition is a means to an end, and that end is being inspired. VEX is totally different from FRC. The time between regional competitions is not 5 weeks but months apart. You can take your robot back home and build a completely new robot between events. Yes, if you are inspired by another robot or strategy that you see at a Vex competition, you can go home and reconfigure the bot or your game strategy. And hopefully will learn something in the process. I think it's one of the plusses of FVC - the fact that you can (affordably) rebuild your robot and play the game all over again. It's not a one-shot-we're-committed-to-this-design-for-this-season like it is in FRC. I think that's why there is so much interest in Week 1 FRC regionals - everyone is watching to learn how the game strategy plays out, and what robot designs are out there.
1114 has always been gracious and shared their knowledge, just not during build and competitions. Teams have been awed and inspired by them. They have become icons of the north. I am tired of our team members worrying about 1114. That said 1114 has come to our rescue and I know that events that I am at if 1114 is there they are the first team that I direct teams in trouble to. Ungracious? Definitely not!!!!!I apologize for implying that 1114 was not gracious in their actions. After reading Karthik's post after mine, I realize that they don't want to share their design and that's their right to do so. I was thinking it was a little odd to be asking other people to take down photos because they were in it.
And even if we end up seeing robots with similar designs (as we often do in FRC), there is always the human factor of drivers, coaches, alliance partners and pure luck thrown into every match.

[gblake]

Just to clarify, Team 1114 has decided not to post pictures of their Vex robot until after the Championships in Atlanta. The team is definitely not trying to control the publishing of photos by others. This would both be foolish and out of line. Anyone who has a picture has every right to upload it as they wish.
Come on 1114 - Post at least one long-range, out-of-focus, blurry snapshot. - And then throw down the gauntlet.

Dare any copy cats to survive against the clever driving, the improved software, and the faster, more reliable, higher volume mechanisms you are going to build next.

Because of all this discussion, I am extremely curious about the general outlines of the design.

Because I have my own favorite subsystems that I am going to continue teaching my team about; I'm pretty sure that by choosing among those subsystems they will continue to assemble a machine that can either give you a run for your money on offense or shut you down on defense.

So, while I am honestly not interested in seeing my guys clone your or anyone's design, I am very interested in seeing your team take this golden opportunity to give the rest of us a challenge to beat.

Come on.... You know that you want to do it.... At least a decent prose description of it....

Blake

[JaneYoung]

At the risk of not having a fully formed thought, I'd like to offer as much of it as I can at the moment.
For many years, the Austin community loved and supported a Mr. Lance Armstrong in his athletic endeavors. It is my thinking that he felt comfortable here and had his space, enabling him to develop, train, grow.
We talk the talk of being an athletic sports event, trying to gain that respect and global understanding. In order to help do that, the athletes have to have the space to compete and to train. They are in the fish bowl enough without members of their community adding to it. This team wants their privacy until they choose to release the information as they choose. We should respect that and respect the competition and the newness of this sport.

We will all win in the end.
.02
Jane

[ManicMechanic]

While there may not be agreement on the posting of pictures during the season, one thing that I would highly encourage is the more posting and sharing of designs off-season. How I would have loved to see some of the photos that are appearing now (or last year's equivalent) over the summer! Our team is in this for the learning (we are not expecting to be competitive this year -- simply being picked by an alliance at all would make our day), because we are so far behind.

What would be extremely desirable for us is for close-ups and documentation to show us how certain elements (lifters, conveyer belts, shooters, etc.) are constructed by posting several photos at intermediate stages of construction, so we can reverse engineer on our own -- again not for a specific competition, but for learning.

I speak not only for ourselves, but for about a dozen Vex teams (no prior FLL, Vex, or FRC experience), that are drying on the vine. The kits are bought, the funding for registration raised, but when we volunteered to organize a league, no one was interested because they were so far from being ready. Having to re-invent the wheel (or at least the drive train) without guidance is so time consuming that it discourages all but the most persistent user.

[MrForbes]

I've watched my sons learn about Vex over the past year, going from knowing nothing about it at all, to being able to build a competitive robot. In between was a LOT of playing...I can't call it anything else....starting with a modest goal, building something to see if it can accomplish the goal, and redesigning and rebuilding over and over to fix each weakness. The school robotics club started fall 2005 as real rookies, they bought a few Vex kits and had small friendly competitions among themselves. We also bought a couple kits for our family, and the boys worked with them as they felt the desire. The club bought more kits, and put on two Vex robotics camps over the summer, which I think really helped teach them the principles of design--the best way to really learn something is by teaching others!

So, look over the pictures, but realize that the only way to really get good at it is to try and try again, expecting to make mistakes and learn from them.

[gblake]

I speak not only for ourselves, but for about a dozen Vex teams (no prior FLL, Vex, or FRC experience), that are drying on the vine. The kits are bought, the funding for registration raised, but when we volunteered to organize a league, no one was interested because they were so far from being ready. Having to re-invent the wheel (or at least the drive train) without guidance is so time consuming that it discourages all but the most persistent user.This is a little off topic, but I encourage you to spend one afternoon creating any sort of facsimile of a field and then getting those teams together just to spend a day building and practicing.

Deflate all the pressure from the situation.

If you can build a squarebot you can practice driving, offensive/defensive/collaborative strategies, platform getting-onto, low-goal scoring, and atlas ball-herding.

You are plenty ready to do your part deciding which alliance will win a match - You just don't realize it yet.

During the building part of the day work together brainstorming some challenges and then go your separate ways to implement the ideas each team likes best.

Avoid doing worse than a squarebot and I say you are a success.

Don't over-think it. Just pick a garage or church or school cafeteria and just do it! I have photos proving that it is easy. :-)

Blake

[fredliu168]

This is a little off topic, but what other FVC championships can we expect to see 1114 and/or 3075 in other than the championships in atlanta?

[ManicMechanic]

This is a little off topic, but I encourage you to spend one afternoon creating any sort of facsimile of a field and then getting those teams together just to spend a day building and practicing.

Deflate all the pressure from the situation.



We tried! We started off with a formalized plan (sign up for 2 events in our league) and lacking interest, downgraded to "anyone just come and practice and build when you can", but not a single team contacted us. I'm not even sure if those teams even still exist (though I know the 20+ kits were bought).

For a team with no FRC or even FLL precedent, there needs to be a draw that keeps the students on the team. We've had several students come and build the squarebot, then stop coming. I think the problem is that without a technical mentor and/or explicit building instructions, they don't know how to get from Point A to Point B (how do you build a manipulator, let alone attach it to a squarebot). They have no concept of a competition and how exciting it can be, so even that aspect holds no appeal.

We have one advantage over the dozen teams that we're describing, which is that one student on the team and I have extensive FLL experience and know the potential of Vex. But we still have the skills of a "pre-FRC" team, which is why detailed photos with close-ups of gearing, axels, and manipulators would be of great value to us (though we certainly don't expect it during competition season). It took 4 weeks to complete our first functional dual reduction gearing on a manipulator, and we lost several students in the process. If we had had examples to use, it would have gone more quickly, and we might have held the interest of the students.

[fredliu168]

We tried! We started off with a formalized plan (sign up for 2 events in our league) and lacking interest, downgraded to "anyone just come and practice and build when you can", but not a single team contacted us. I'm not even sure if those teams even still exist (though I know the 20+ kits were bought).

For a team with no FRC or even FLL precedent, there needs to be a draw that keeps the students on the team. We've had several students come and build the squarebot, then stop coming. I think the problem is that without a technical mentor and/or explicit building instructions, they don't know how to get from Point A to Point B (how do you build a manipulator, let alone attach it to a squarebot). They have no concept of a competition and how exciting it can be, so even that aspect holds no appeal.

We have one advantage over the dozen teams that we're describing, which is that one student on the team and I have extensive FLL experience and know the potential of Vex. But we still have the skills of a "pre-FRC" team, which is why detailed photos with close-ups of gearing, axels, and manipulators would be of great value to us (though we certainly don't expect it during competition season). It took 4 weeks to complete our first functional dual reduction gearing on a manipulator, and we lost several students in the process. If we had had examples to use, it would have gone more quickly, and we might have held the interest of the students.


Much of VEX is quite difficult to learn. However, if someone spent time reading all of the manuel, and surfing around forums, asking a lot of questions, it can be done. I know this because I came into leading a VEX team not having any engineering experience. I had to learn how to build from scratch. The owner's manuel was a huge help to me.
As for pictures of VEX robots from previous years, it can be found on the vexlabs site and several other sites.
Also, I don't know how you managed to raise money to buy 20+ kits, but good job on that. However, I don't think building 20 competition robots is very effective in terms of interest and inspiration. I found that there is usually only a handful of students in a school willing to dedicate their time and effort into building a robot. It's much better to have 1-5 robots, with the students involved working as a team, than 20 individual robots.

Cheers,
FIG

[Mr. Lim]

There are many pictures of 1114 taken that day. In fact, I took many of those pictures myself...

I know there are a lot of people who are excited about 1114's robot, and with good reason. I question who would win a match if you put 1114 against ALL of our school's VEX teams in what would be an embarrasingly competitive 6 vs 1 match. They ARE that good! :p (And 3075 is no slouch either :D )

In good faith, I couldn't possibly post a picture of 1114's robot for a number of reason, none of which are meant to be ungracious to anyone in the FVC community.

Remember that time when you wanted to see that REALLY good suspense movie, and your buddy walked up to you and told you how it ended, ruining the entire experience for you?

If I posted a picture, I would be that guy...

There are plenty of pictures out there, and I suspect the reason there aren't (m)any posted is exactly why I haven't.

Be patient, kick back, grab a bag of popcorn, and enjoy the show in Atlanta =).

The wait will be worth it!

[nonother]

We tried! We started off with a formalized plan (sign up for 2 events in our league) and lacking interest, downgraded to "anyone just come and practice and build when you can", but not a single team contacted us. I'm not even sure if those teams even still exist (though I know the 20+ kits were bought).

For a team with no FRC or even FLL precedent, there needs to be a draw that keeps the students on the team. We've had several students come and build the squarebot, then stop coming. I think the problem is that without a technical mentor and/or explicit building instructions, they don't know how to get from Point A to Point B (how do you build a manipulator, let alone attach it to a squarebot). They have no concept of a competition and how exciting it can be, so even that aspect holds no appeal.

We have one advantage over the dozen teams that we're describing, which is that one student on the team and I have extensive FLL experience and know the potential of Vex. But we still have the skills of a "pre-FRC" team, which is why detailed photos with close-ups of gearing, axels, and manipulators would be of great value to us (though we certainly don't expect it during competition season). It took 4 weeks to complete our first functional dual reduction gearing on a manipulator, and we lost several students in the process. If we had had examples to use, it would have gone more quickly, and we might have held the interest of the students.

There are plenty of pictures about from last year's competition. Check out VexForum.com for stuff beyond what is here in CD-Media. That said I think just tinkering around is sufficient. I (a student) started a team this year with another student and it's taken us quite a while but we now have a team of 4 that is proficient at building with Vex parts. It just takes finding people that are genuinely interested to begin with.

My biggest piece of advice for building stuff with Vex (and I think a lot of people here on the forum will disagree with me) is to think in Vex parts. Don't think "well I could build this," now let's figure out how to build it with Vex parts. My experience has been this leads to complete disaster. What in theory works just often can't be built for numerous reasons. Then once you have an idea, build it, test it, improve it. If the team truly loves building robots they'll have no problem spending countless hours tinkering to make it perfect once they can see it will work!

[ManicMechanic]

Also, I don't know how you managed to raise money to buy 20+ kits, but good job on that. However, I don't think building 20 competition robots is very effective in terms of interest and inspiration. I found that there is usually only a handful of students in a school willing to dedicate their time and effort into building a robot. It's much better to have 1-5 robots, with the students involved working as a team, than 20 individual robots.

Cheers,
FIG

Actually, the 20+ kits are not mine. They were bought by a school district in a nearby city, and were intended for a dozen teams at the area high schools. Our team of 4-8 kids has 2 kits + peripherals.

[Synergy1848]

with a little over a week till atlanta isn't it time we saw a picturte of simbotics vex robot?

[Jared W]

with a little over a week till atlanta isn't it time we saw a picturte of simbotics vex robot?

Ya S.P.A.M. team 3228 made a post for robots going to Atlanta and only 2-3 robots have posted since then. You'd think with only a week left teams wouldn't care anymore. Plus, scouting for 69+ U.S. and Canada teams, 7+ Japanese teams, and more, you'd think teams would want to get their robot out. With teams at a maximum of 10 students, its gonna be a LITTLE hard to scout all those robots.

[sovierr]

with a little over a week till atlanta isn't it time we saw a picturte of simbotics vex robot?

I think it is time that all teams post picutres. There is not enough time to replicate and perfect a robot at this time - come on guys!!!

[EricRobodox]

edited

[fredliu168]

Ya S.P.A.M. team 3228 made a post for robots going to Atlanta and only 2-3 robots have posted since then. You'd think with only a week left teams wouldn't care anymore. Plus, scouting for 69+ U.S. and Canada teams, 7+ Japanese teams, and more, you'd think teams would want to get their robot out. With teams at a maximum of 10 students, its gonna be a LITTLE hard to scout all those robots.

NOT Japanese, Chinese

BIG difference there

[ManicMechanic]

There seems to be some frustration based on some teams not posting photos of their robots. There was a similar discussion on the FLL forum (if interested, I can e-mail you a copy if you PM me with your address). In summary, the consensus seemed to be that there is a wide range of gracious professional behavior, which spans from sharing complete photos & videos to sharing teasers to sharing nothing at all. While I certainly appreciate it when people do share photos, a team should feel the freedom not to if this is their preference, and a team should never be pressured to share, only later to wonder, "Would we have ranked higher against xxx if we hadn't posted?"

As a "lower end" team, it was easy for us to post photos because we knew that we had far more to gain than to lose. We had no illusions about the (un)likelihood of ranking in the top 8-15 (or of anyone "stealing" our designs), but thought we might stand a chance of being a second pick if we got on someone's radar. However, if we were a higher scoring team with a real shot at coming out closer to the top, we might have felt differently.

On the receiving end, I generally don't take a close-up shot (one designed to highlight a particular robot, as opposed to being caught in the background of a panorama) unless I get permission. I would NEVER post a close-up shot of someone else's robot without permission. When a team has worked as hard as most teams have on their bot, it seems that they have some ownership in an ethical sense, even if legally, they have forfeited these rights by showing it in public. The fact that many bots compete in multiple events complicates matters. I have no problems using a general idea (conveyor belt, grabbing strategy) seen an earlier tournament, but I would respect a team's request not to take or post photos in an attempt to replicate their design. Where is the line between "learning" and "cheating?" Probably "learning" if I benefit and "cheating" if the next guy does! Mainly, I would have to ask myself how I would feel if the positions were reversed. If our bot were copied, I suppose that if nothing illegal were done, I'd accept it, even if I didn't feel good about it.

Rules have to be made when consideration and consensus are insufficient, and it's my hope that GP will win the day in this one.

[gblake]

A different viewpoint - I endeavor to keep my feelings aligned with the rules of the event(s) in which I participate. In earlier messages I clearly outlined strategies that can be used to continually improve any FVC robot that has been placed in full public view during a competition.

As for a design used in a competition, exhibition or other public forum; the definition of "public" means that the cat is out of the bag, either for a select few who see it but collaborate to keep the "secret" to themselves (and perhaps gain an advantage over the wider population) or for the entire community.

Regardless "public" means, among other things, "not secret". There is no FVC rule that says designs will, should be, might be, could be, ought to be, etc. kept secret from folks who were not present at any particular public event.

In my opinion, attempting to squelch publicity of a public robot amounts to attempting to create and enforce a rule that simply does not exist. In fact the rules and tournament guidelines strongly imply quite the opposite. They say that robots compete in the light of day, that publicity is encouraged, and that anyone can make any change to any robot any time before putting it on the field for any match.

Therefore, I assert that there is a very strong case to be made for this statement: There is nothing wrong with posting a snapshot, description, scale drawing, movie or other rendering, obtained without subterfuge, of a robot that has been put on public display.

Remember the definition of PUBLIC....

Being ethical generally includes sticking to the rules and applying them equally in all equal circumstances. It generally does not include making up new rules and attempting to use peer pressure to deny someone else a freedom granted by the actual rules.

I shall feel no guilt if I am asked about a robot I have seen in public and I supply all the information I gathered in a public setting when that robot was present or operating. The robot was in PUBLIC.

Folks may wish they could have their cake and eat it too (compete in a PUBLIC tournament, but not reveal their current design); but I afraid that is a pretty much a physical impossibility. I strongly feel that they should not pressure others to conform to a "rule" that does not exist and is expressly at odds with the real rules.

To do so would hardly seem a gracious act.

Blake

[ManicMechanic]

As long as there is a generalized understanding in the FVC community that "public" means that posting pictures of other teams' robots is common practice and "fair game", it would be reasonable to do this. In FLL, few teams post pictures of their own robots, let alone other robots, not because it's illegal, but because it's not "commonly done." FVC is not FLL, but it's not FRC, either, and we in a newly emerging FVC community have the opportunity to determine what will become "common practice." However, if posting pictures of other teams' robots is considered common and acceptable, it then should be acceptable for a team to use whatever legal means possible to safeguard its design if it chooses to, such as "saving" certain strategies for later tournaments or keeping the robot covered when it's off the field. Teams that employ these strategies or choose not to post pictures should not be considered "unsporting", but merely operating within the confines of the rules. Of course, those teams that graciously share despite the knowledge that others may and will copy their designs are especially to be commended.

[sovierr]

Well, it seems the last few posts may have danced around the main issue:
Several FVC teams come with FRC experience, while several come with FLL experience (and some formed with no prior experience). The teams with no experience have no idea what the culture is. The FRC based teams expect pictures posted, as that is what is done in FRC. I love looking at pictures of other teams and seeing the different lines of thinking used to accomplish the same task. The FLL based teams have never done this before, because it is not part of their culture.

We need to forge a new culture for FVC. If we continue to have open ended build seasons, I understand and respect the desire for secrecy. I also know that when we tweak something on our robot, it may take a day or two to find the optimal conditions before it is working well. A major overhaul takes a great deal of time before it would work. I can't imagine a team scrapping a robot and starting from scratch now.

I think the time for secrecy is done, and the time for scouting is upon us. This event requires alliances that FLL does not. With 75-100 teams, there is no way to scout effectively without some "advanced scouting" to overcome the time required to make the mental picture of the robot match with the team number. Besides, I need something to do on our 10 hour bus ride to Atlanta. Why not spend some of that time looking at robot pictures?

Can you at least post them by Monday or Tuesday???

[gblake]

As long as there is a generalized understanding in the FVC community that "public" means that posting pictures of other teams' robots is common practice and "fair game", it would be reasonable to do this.No - Correct conclusion - Wrong reason.

As long as a robot is displayed in public it is reasonable to do this. Common sense tells us this. By what authority would anyone or any entity assert that sharing images or descriptions of objects displayed in public is unreasonable.
In FLL, few teams post pictures of their own robots, let alone other robots, not because it's illegal, but because it's not "commonly done."So... where is the empirical data to back up this assertion, I can think of several other reasons why published pictures of FLL robots might have been uncommon in the past. How many FLL communities have been examined in order to gather enough data to test the hypothesis you are advancing? Can you really defend this statement with anything other than your personal opinion and/or anecdotes?
FVC is not FLL, but it's not FRC, either, and we in a newly emerging FVC community have the opportunity to determine what will become "common practice."Common Practice is irrelevant, unless we want to use the "tyranny of the majority" to interfere with the smooth running of teams that 100% abide by all the FVC rules and tournament guidelines. Tread very cautiously here. I definitely prefer Constitutional Republics to pure Democracies.
However, if posting pictures of other teams' robots is considered common and acceptable, it then should be acceptable for a team to use whatever legal means possible to safeguard its design if it chooses to, such as "saving" certain strategies for later tournaments or keeping the robot covered when it's off the field.It simply doesn't matter if it is "considered" common and acceptable. It IS legal right now according to the documents that govern FVC. Therefore it IS acceptable already and shall be until those published rules and guidelines perhaps change. No one's (and no community's) permission is needed. This is the proverbial other side of the coin.
Teams that employ these strategies or choose not to post pictures should not be considered "unsporting", but merely operating within the confines of the rules.See above, on what basis would anyone form any other opinion?
Of course, those teams that graciously share despite the knowledge that others may and will copy their designs are especially to be commended.We certainly agree here. None of us stand alone. The ideas we are recycling stretch back beyond Pythagoras. If we don't think we owe far more than we "own"; then we are not as clever as we think.

Well, it seems the last few posts may have danced around the main issue:
Several FVC teams come with FRC experience, while several come with FLL experience (and some formed with no prior experience). The teams with no experience have no idea what the culture is. We need to forge a new culture for FVC."The culture" you speak of is a very, very evanescent thing. Like a fractal, the more closely you examine it, the more fractured and convoluted it becomes. And, it is also only barely relevant in this conversation.

The mushy, amorphous notion of a culture is not something to hang your hat upon here. Just look up through this entire thread, then look at threads covering similar (gracious professionalism-ish) topics. You will find many common lines of thinking among the handfuls of folks who like writing messages in discussion threads; but you will also find enough well-reasoned dissenting opinions to blow out of the water any notion of a homogeneous FIRST "culture" that knows the correct answers to all questions of this ilk.

What we need to guide us in this specific case is a framework of FVC rules and guidelines published by the proper authority, a dictionary that includes the definition of the word "public", and the unleashed creativity of thousands of students and mentors.

If we continue to have open ended build seasons, I understand and respect the desire for secrecy.Even if we don't have open-ended build seasons I understand the desire for secrecy. Furthermore, I respect it until the secret is revealed. However, once the secret item is made public by its owner; then it is, by definition, no longer secret. Anyone who disagrees should get their dictionary out.
I also know that when we tweak something on our robot, it may take a day or two to find the optimal conditions before it is working well. A major overhaul takes a great deal of time before it would work. I can't imagine a team scrapping a robot and starting from scratch now.Even if a team does attempt to clone an FVC robot at the "last minute"; first refer one more time to the definition of public. Then...

I say more power to them. It they can catch up with the results of weeks of refining and tuning the mechanical and software parts of design; and can beat the original machine's team at strategy and driving on the field; and can do all of that in a few hours using just a photo or two, or a video; then I bow to the masters!

Blake

[Domino]

I just wanted to say that 3391 just started rebuilding there robot last week... GG

[fredliu168]

I just wanted to say that 3391 just started rebuilding there robot last week... GG

.... You just started rebuilding your robot and the championships are next week. Well I really wish you good luck.

And remember, an awsome driver on a bad bot can beat a bad driver on an amazing bot anyday.
(quoted from someone)

[ManicMechanic]

It IS legal right now according to the documents that govern FVC. Therefore it IS acceptable already and shall be until those published rules and guidelines perhaps change. No one's (and no community's) permission is needed.

For the FIRST Vex Challenge Game, the rules are clear and explicit, and non-prohibition implies permission (i.e., if there's not a rule against it, it's allowed). For generic etiquette, non-prohibition does not always imply consent – I don't know of any law that prohibits me from seating myself at a stranger's table in a restaurant, but I'm likely to arouse anger and hostility if I do (in the U.S, that is.; in a third world country where I lived, this was acceptable). So for generic etiquette, culture DOES matter. Does picture taking & posting of publicly shown robots fall under the rules of the FIRST Vex Challenge or under generic etiquette? I can see that a good case could be made for both points of view on this (we sign a waiver, but media permission is only given to FIRST, not all spectators), but as you can imagine, I fall on the generic side. And in a generic sense, there are some things that are public that I still would not assume I can use as I like without permission. With regards to picture taking, I generally would not take a close-up of someone's face/child/house/robot without permission, and I would not post a picture of their face/child/house/robot without permission, even if they show these things in public.


So... where is the empirical data to back up this assertion

While I certainly can't speak for every person in FLL, I have used the FLL forum extensively as a 4-year member and 2-year moderator (on the FLL Freak test, I had to check the box that says, "I read every post in every thread on the forum… daily"), so I have a pretty good "big picture" view of what has happened on the FLL forum in the past 3-4 years. For statistical data, in this year's forum (it's "swept clean" every year) under the section for posting links to web pages and photos, there are 10 teams who shared (and I know of 2 others who shared in other threads). In terms of the community at large, there are 186 teams from CA registered on the forum, ~400 CA FLL teams overall. If CA teams reflect the FLL community proportionally (8000 teams), then 12/3720 forum users share links, photos, and videos. I don't know how this compares to FRC, but "not common" is a reasonable description of 0.3%.

Why does this matter? In the '05-'06 season, FIRST estimated that 20,000 students participated in FRC and 60,000 participated in FLL. As FVC continues on its trajectory of exponential growth, many of those FLL people will make their way to FVC. Some changes can be accepted easily -- if people are told, "Please post your photos here – lots of us do it, it helps with scouting and benefits everyone," no problem. The problem comes when involuntary measures are thrust upon them: "Your team didn't post a picture, so I'll post one for you." I could see many taking offense at having a robot photo posted without permission, and this discussion could replicate itself multi-fold. The only ways I can see to alleviate that potential offense are 1) always ask permission or 2) help them understand that "this is the way some people do things around here, and it's accepted practice." If we are proactive in educating them about the range of acceptable behavior through threads like this, they are more likely to "see the light" and less likely to lash out with unfair and untrue accusations.

Culture doesn't have to be restrictive by saying "everyone behaves this way." It can actually give more freedom by expanding the range of acceptable practice.

Blake, I know that you're a great guy, even though we don't see eye to eye, and your viewpoints have given me food for thought.

[gblake]

I don't know how this compares to FRC, but "not common" is a reasonable description of 0.3%.My very strong opinion about why few teams posted pictures, etc. is that they would only post them if they wanted to brag (in a positive sense of the word). Teams know what their own robot looks like, and they have little incentive to do extra work to show it to a bunch of anonymous someones out on the Internet. This isn't an iron-clad rule but I suspect it is a significant factor.

Therefore, I suggest, few of the students take the time to post pictures of their own robots.

Also, at those ages (I am painting with a very broad brush here) while there is a strong tendency among many young students to want to show off, there is also a fairly strong tendency to look out for their own interests first. As a rule the notion of service before self is pretty elusive for many years as students grow and mature.

I have little if any research to back up these assertions, but I think that they are reasonable opinions to hold.

Blake
PS: Just in case anyone thinks I'm picking on younger students too much... Well - I am certainly guilty of non-uploading-ishness. I have about six sets of Vex bot pics I have needed to put up on the VexLabs site and instead I have been indulging my ego in this thread.... :)

[fredliu168]

Blake, you can't say that the only students to take the time to post pictures is the ones who want to brag.

In Atlanta, the scouts will not have a lot of time to carefully look at all the robots. In many cases, teams will print out advertisments of their robot and hand it out to other teams to ensure that they get selected.

Personally, I believe some teams will have the strategy of posting pics on CD and Vexlabs in order to be more known, and in order to guarentee themselves in the Atlanta Elims.

[ManicMechanic]

Blake, you can't say that the only students to take the time to post pictures is the ones who want to brag.



I think you missed the context -- the "bragging students" refers to young FLL students. FLL has an alliance round, but it is determined purely by random selection by powers that be -- the teams have no say, so there is no alliance selection.

There are a number of reasons why FLL students don't post much: they aren't as likely to have websites or be as skilled with digital photography & attachments as high schoolers, and the vast majority of visitors to the FLL forum are coaches, not students.

[gblake]

Blake, you can't say that the only students to take the time to post pictures is the ones who want to brag.

In Atlanta, the scouts will not have a lot of time to carefully look at all the robots. In many cases, teams will print out advertisments of their robot and hand it out to other teams to ensure that they get selected.

Personally, I believe some teams will have the strategy of posting pics on CD and Vexlabs in order to be more known, and in order to guarentee themselves in the Atlanta Elims.Posting pictures & other info for scouts to use is exactly the sort of bragging "in a positive sense of the word" that I was referring to. i.e. Here is our robot, it is a good one, look forward to allying with us...

[Synergy1848]

how did no one know that there were triplets of simbotics robot before the championship? or are these identical designs from canada a coincidence?

[Billfred]

how did no one know that there were triplets of simbotics robot before the championship? or are these identical designs from canada a coincidence?
Trick question--they weren't identical.

Granted, several robots had similar softball manipulators to Simbotics, which seemed to draw a little inspiration from FRC 173's robot from 2002. (Seeing as how that robot won the world championship--and that includes pulling out the rubber match on Einstein with 66 after 71 broke--I'd say it's worth emulating.) I'm blindly guessing (and don't have the lists to back this up) that the teams either competed or spectated at an event that FVC 1114 competed at, permitting them to try to fabricate a similar design in the time between competitions and the Championship.

I saw most of these robots up close and personal--the advantage of being a ref, I suppose--and I didn't see any absolute clones of 1114. However, I hope everyone took the opportunity to get a good look at them; there were definitely several tricks in their robot that any FVC team (or even just a Vex builder) could learn. (The first one that comes to mind is their use of 1-wide bar in a sort of curved web configuration to keep errant softballs out of their internals. I'll see if the photos I took of them came out.)

[MrForbes]

I guess yodameister liked the thumbs up!

Anyways...team 3075 worked with Simbotics, which might explain similarities between those teams' robots. We really felt bad about how the last match went with the communications problems we were having with our robot...3075 definitely should have been in the eliminations

Bad pics of most of the robots are in a link posted on another thead of mine.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56814

[Synergy1848]

Trick question--they weren't identical.


the designs were identical, the fabrication was slightly different, they were all 6 wheels drive, 1:1 ratio to motors with 4" wheels. maipulators were double jointed arms with a basket. the intakes were powered by intake rollers and chain on 24 tooth sprockets on both the top and bottom to prevent jamming.

1114:
http://photos.project1726.org/albums/userpics/10010/normal_1114.jpg

3075
http://photos.project1726.org/albums/userpics/10010/3075.jpg

3652
http://photos.project1726.org/albums/userpics/10010/normal_3652.jpg

[fredliu168]

Team 1114 mentored 3075.

Team 3652 took some ideas from 1114 in terms of ball pickup. However, we were gear drive, not chain drive (though still 6 wheels), and the mechanisms had several major differences. Overall I think 1114's bot was best. Their arm and pickup was faster and more stable and they could hang.

Lets not forget all of the teams similar to team 40. I counted 4-5 tread pickup and basket dump.

[Billfred]

Team 1114 mentored 3075.

Team 3652 took some ideas from 1114 in terms of ball pickup. However, we were gear drive, not chain drive (though still 6 wheels), and the mechanisms had several major differences. Overall I think 1114's bot was best. Their arm and pickup was faster and more stable and they could hang.

Lets not forget all of the teams similar to team 40. I counted 4-5 tread pickup and basket dump.
This is true, there were also a lot of 40-esque designs. (S.H.I.R.T. and Vexy Things come to mind immediately.)

The more I think about it, however, the more I'm suspecting that some of the similarities could be a function of the constraints of the Vex Robotics Design System. How can you lift five or six softballs to high-goal height? You can elevate, you can use a jointed arm--but you'd have to run Vex chain in triplicate or quadruplicate, use tank tread, or use gears. Of the three, I'd use gears--but then your gear ratio choices are restricted to a few configurations of the same gears--and those are the same ratios that everybody has. If they're thinking the same way as you about the game, odds are that they're trying a similar setup.

With these limitations, the difference becomes the level of refinement of the designs and the strategy employed with them. And I like that.

[billw]

It's funny, Vexy Things followed both paths. They had already settled on a basket using a scissors lift, but they were still pushing ideas around for how to structure the pickup. When they saw Team 40's design, they realized right away that they could use that. What they really liked was that the treads put the intake on the field side. Eventually they used 4 motors, a 3:1 gear ratio and 6 treads which allowed them to load balls faster.

BTW, I think that photos of all robots should be taken when they are inspected and posted after each tournament. From educational standpoint, there is much to be learned by seeing what others have done--and then, hopefully, improving upon it. Videos of the finals should be posted for the same reasons.

--Bill Wiley
Coach
Vexy Things (#3549)

[rswsmay]

Even funnier than that.... S.H.I.R.T. had a similar design to other teams during their State FVC tournament, but redesigned it from a lifting arm with tank treads, to an elevating basket. We almost totally swapped mechanism designs with team 2024 Mr. Roboto and we both ended up with better robots in the process.

During the redesign, we went through the same brainstorming we did initially by looking at scissor lifts, linear slide elevators, rotating/articulating arm, etc. But as Billfred stated, there are only a few basic methods for elevating several softballs from the ground to the top of a goal given the parts to work with. It's going to come down the the individual teams choices about the specific implementation method. We opted for methods that dealt with the balls in large numbers.
.... Pick up a load of balls from the floor
.... store a load of balls in the basket and intake treads
.... and dump a load of balls at once.
Doing all of this as fast as we can and as reliably as we can. The unpredictable issue for us was that 50% of our matches ended up with either human error ....... OR........field control problems and/or interference that left our robot dead on the field for more than half the match.


It's funny, Vexy Things followed both paths. They had already settled on a basket using a scissors lift, but they were still pushing ideas around for how to structure the pickup. When they saw Team 40's design, they realized right away that they could use that. What they really liked was that the treads put the intake on the field side. Eventually they used 4 motors, a 3:1 gear ratio and 6 treads which allowed them to load balls faster.

BTW, I think that photos of all robots should be taken when they are inspected and posted after each tournament. From educational standpoint, there is much to be learned by seeing what others have done--and then, hopefully, improving upon it. Videos of the finals should be posted for the same reasons.

--Bill Wiley
Coach
Vexy Things (#3549)