Rules Questions

[Eric W. Jones]

It says in the rules that,
<G21> SCORING for opponents - ROBOTS may not HANG a GAME PIECE of an opposing
ALLIANCE. If this rule is violated a 10-point penalty will be assessed per infraction.
Also,
<G15> Double RINGERS - a RINGER can not be placed on a SPIDER LEG on which a RINGER is
already HANGING. If a ROBOT HANGS a RINGER on a SPIDER LEG that already has a
HANGING RINGER from the opposing ALLIANCE, the second RINGER will be ignored
when calculating the match score. If a ROBOT HANGS a RINGER on a SPIDER LEG that
already has a HANGING RINGER from their own ALLIANCE (for example, to prevent a
SPOILER from being placed on the SPIDER LEG), the two RINGERS will cancel each other
and both will be ignored when determining if the SPIDER LEG is SCORED.
My question is, if you place an opponent's ringer over another one of their ringers, is the first still negated?

[A. Newlon]

The real question is, if the opponent has, let's say, eight in a row. Is it possible to take the ten penalty points to place their own ringer over another (negating both ringers) to lower their score?

[Steve S.]

My question is, if you place an opponent's ringer over another one of their ringers, is the first still negated?

Yours is negated....theirs still counts and you still get the penalty

my $.02 (hehe didnt see the post below when i edited)

[Jake177]

Only the ringer you put on is negated, as per the first part of the rule. If you put a ringer over one of your opponents ringers, regardless of its color, your ringer doesn't count, but your opponents rigner still counts.

[cbudrecki]

Only the ringer you put on is negated, as per the first part of the rule. If you put a ringer over one of your opponents ringers, regardless of its color, your ringer doesn't count, but your opponents rigner still counts.

After reading through G15 (posted in the first post of this thread), it seems to read assuming you are placing your own ringer. The possibility of hanging your opponents ringer isn't really addressed as far as cancelling that leg.

[Wbrown0389]

Does anyone know if it is possible to drop a "ramp" of some sorts in the Home Zone say during auto and complete the remainder of the match? There seems to be conflicting rules saying that we can deploy mechanisms inside the home zone but another rule states that leaving mechanisms behind is a penalty....

Is the FIRST Q&A up?

[goregantuan]

can you be touching the back wall and still get the levitation bonus points?

[Wbrown0389]

no, must not be touching any element of the field...

[goregantuan]

where'd you read that?

[cbudrecki]

Does anyone know if it is possible to drop a "ramp" of some sorts in the Home Zone say during auto and complete the remainder of the match? There seems to be conflicting rules saying that we can deploy mechanisms inside the home zone but another rule states that leaving mechanisms behind is a penalty....



<G40> Detaching mechanisms - ROBOTS may not intentionally detach parts or leave multiple mechanisms on the field. Violations will result in a 10-point penalty per incident. If an intentionally detached component or mechanism significantly impedes access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT during the END GAME, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified from the match.

What confuses me is the terms in bold above... First they say you may not leave multiple parts, and then they talk about penalties for single (an intentionally detached component or mechanism) parts...

Regardless, it seems as long as your component does not "impede access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT," the 10-point penalty may be worth the risk. Then again, is it truly in the spirit of FIRST to intentionally earn a penalty to win the game;)

[cbudrecki]

no, must not be touching any element of the field...

where'd you read that?

<G56> ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are
entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance
station, goal etc.)...

this space intentionally left blank....

[goregantuan]

thanks for clarification

[Wbrown0389]

What confuses me is the terms in bold above... First they say you may not leave multiple parts, and then they talk about penalties for single (an intentionally detached component or mechanism) parts...

Regardless, it seems as long as your component does not "impede access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT," the 10-point penalty may be worth the risk. Then again, is it truly in the spirit of FIRST to intentionally earn a penalty to win the game;)

exactly what i was thinking. just not sure if we can deliberately leave something in the home zone, which would not impede movement of any other robots. there is a specific rule stating we cant do it on the field but no clarification in the zone. i think itll b well worth the risk.....who knows well see

[Steve Howland]

Question...

<G25> END GAME play – ROBOTS may not occupy the opponents HOME ZONE during the END GAME. Any ROBOT in an opponent’s HOME ZONE at the start of the END GAME will be assessed a 10-point penalty. A second 10-point penalty will be assessed if the ROBOT is still in the HOME ZONE 5 seconds after the start of the END GAME. Another 10-point penalty will be assessed if the ROBOT remains in the HOME ZONE 10 seconds after the start of the END GAME. However, a ROBOT that has been blocked or otherwise prevented from exiting the HOME ZONE (as described in Rule <G24>) will not be assessed any penalty.

If a robot becomes disabled while in the opponent's home zone and thus unable to leave during the End Game period, will there be a penalty assessed?

If the problem is electrical then I don't see why one should be, but what if you had a safety violation and the referees disabled you while there?

What if you purposely disable your robot with the E-stop while in the opponent's home zone as an attempt to interfere? (this would be against the spirit of FIRST, but I want it clarified so that it won't happen in a match)

[Aldgazar]

Does anyone know anything about the "STINGER" besides the fact that it's a small rubber tube attached to the back of a SPIDER FOOT.

There was something about it in the Kickoff demonstration. One of the RINGERS was stuck on a rubber tube and they said it wouldn't have counted until it was all the way on the SPIDER LEG. I don't remember if this is exactly what they said about it. The manual mentions the STINGER briefly at the end of 6.2.2 (The Arena, The Rack).

[Guy Davidson]

Hello,
We read through the manual, and didn't find any good answers to these questions (sorry if any have been asked before - I didn't see them):
- Seeing as the leg sets are numbered 1 through 8, is a "reach-around" allowed? for example, does having 7-8-1-2 in one height count as four in a row or two rows of two in a row?
- For purposes of seeing what's going on in the other side of the field, are we allowed to connect the feed from the robot's camera to a monitor in our driver's control panel?
- Are we allowed to pull the opposing alliance's ringers of a "leg"? Or are we only allowed to manipulate their spoilers?
- Is the coach allowed to have a laptop/tabelt pcs/palm pilots with him when he is with the drivers during a match?

Thanks,
Guy,
Team 8

[DanDon]

Does anyone know anything about the "STINGER" besides the fact that it's a small rubber tube attached to the back of a SPIDER FOOT.

There was something about it in the Kickoff demonstration. One of the RINGERS was stuck on a rubber tube and they said it wouldn't have counted until it was all the way on the SPIDER LEG. I don't remember if this is exactly what they said about it. The manual mentions the STINGER briefly at the end of 6.2.2 (The Arena, The Rack).

The tube needs to be supported by the spider leg, and not the stinger. The stinger prevents tubes from being unintentionally descored.

[CoTR_krissy]

My team is also wondering the same thing. I also haven't found the answer on here yet.

krissy
team 281

[ahecht]

Hello,
We read through the manual, and didn't find any good answers to these questions (sorry if any have been asked before - I didn't see them):
- Seeing as the leg sets are numbered 1 through 8, is a "reach-around" allowed? for example, does having 7-8-1-2 in one height count as four in a row or two rows of two in a row?
- For purposes of seeing what's going on in the other side of the field, are we allowed to connect the feed from the robot's camera to a monitor in our driver's control panel?
- Are we allowed to pull the opposing alliance's ringers of a "leg"? Or are we only allowed to manipulate their spoilers?
- Is the coach allowed to have a laptop/tabelt pcs/palm pilots with him when he is with the drivers during a match?

Thanks,
Guy,
Team 8

Your second and third questions are specifically addressed in the Game and Robot section of the rules (since I encourage you to read this thoroughly and completely, I won't point you to the exact rule number). As a hint, I will tell you that the camera as it comes in the kit cannot transmit a video signal and a custom circuit would need to be created to do so. Your other questions may be there as well, but if they aren't they should be directed towards the official Q&A forum for an official answer. Any answer you get here that isn't directly quoting a rule from the manual should be considered speculation.

[DCA Fan]

1. There are no rules regarding wrap around. I assume this will be covered in an update, until then assume there is NO wraparound.
2. No idea.
3. Once ringers are on the rack, they may not be removed, doing so incurs a 10 pt penalty. Only spoilers may be moved about the rack.
4. I believe so, but again, best to wait for clarification.

[mstrjdilrd]

do u get points for rows if u have a two row on 7 and 8 and then on 1?

[CoTR_krissy]

ok. thanks.

[DCA Fan]

If a robot becomes disabled while in the opponent's home zone and thus unable to leave during the End Game period, will there be a penalty assessed?
No, if your robot is unable to leave the zone for being disabled, you will not incur the 10 pt penalty.

What if you purposely disable your robot with the E-stop while in the opponent's home zone as an attempt to interfere? (this would be against the spirit of FIRST, but I want it clarified so that it won't happen in a match)
The demo made it appear that the referees made the call on disabling, especially in instances of danger. If you disabled in the opponent's home zone for no emergency, you will incur a penalty.

[DCA Fan]

do u get points for rows if u have a two row on 7 and 8 and then on 1?

This will probably be clarified in an update, but for now assume you will not.

[Tetraman]

If there was a wrap around, there wouldn't need to be a need for the numbers. I'm guessing there is no wrap around. The points start at 1, and go to 8.

[mtaman02]

How much of the robot needs to be off the ground? The whole thing meaning Drive system and all or can there be a pneumatic lift under the robot and that would be the only device touching once everything is lifted up?

Chances are the question has been asked so if the answer is there just say so and I'll search for it =).

[Steve Howland]

do u get points for rows if u have a two row on 7 and 8 and then on 1?

This will probably be clarified in an update, but for now assume you will not.

ROW: a set of SPIDER LEGS that are SCORED for the same ALLIANCE and are adjacent and aligned either vertically or horizontally.

I think it will be addressed in an update, but that they will most likely count as a row of 3 because regardless of the numbers, they are still adjacent.

How much of the robot needs to be off the ground? The whole thing meaning Drive system and all or can there be a pneumatic lift under the robot and that would be the only device touching once everything is lifted up?

Chances are the question has been asked so if the answer is there just say so and I'll search for it =).

<G56> ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance station, goal etc.) and the lowest point of the ROBOT is higher than 4 inches and/or 10 inches above the carpeted field surface. The number of bonus points an ALLIANCE
receives is based on the total number of ROBOTS satisfying these conditions. Each ALLIANCE ROBOT entirely in their HOME ZONE at the end of the match is eligible to receive the following bonus points:
Each ROBOT between 0 and 3.9 inches above floor level - 0 bonus points
Each ROBOT between 4.0 and 11.9 inches above floor level - 15 bonus points
Each ROBOT 12.0 inches or more above floor level - 30 bonus points

[ahecht]

This will probably be clarified in an update, but for now assume you will not.

I'm not sure why you would assume you can't wrap around. As far as I can tell, the numbering is not mentioned at all in the rules, and is only used by the referees to assist them in scoring.

[ahecht]

As far as I can tell, the number are used to help the scorers (so they can easily tell which column to mark on their scoresheets as they are counting). If you read the game section of the rules, you will notice that the numbering isn't mentioned at all in describing rows. Only the word "adjacent" is used. Since 1 is adjacent to 8, I would assume that there IS wraparound.

However, any answer is pure speculation until an official answer (either in a Q&A or rule update) is released.

[6 foot 8]

Yeah for the robot thing, if u were to persay have a similar design to the wildstang 2001, where the ramp is touching the ground, but the robot on top of the ramp is not, you would still receive bonus points correct

[Aldgazar]

If there were a wrap-around then it would be possible for an infinite row (8 RINGERS all the way around). This could get you the highest score of all time:D
But most likely the counting starts at 1 and ends at 8 (with no wrap-around).

If they update it so wrap-around is included they would probably need a rule that states that rows end at 8 RINGERS.

[Greg Needel]

The numbers on the racks are for scoring. Refs this year will be using palm pilots to score and the numbers are just a reference. If you think of it logically depending on the inital orientation of the rack it would give a disadvantage to the team that is closest to the 1/8 merger row.

[Guy Davidson]

We looked around some more and found:
1. No ruling about it yet.
2. R79 says we can connect a laptop to get 'feedback' from the robot. The question is, does feedback refer to technical data, like values from the PWM, voltages, etc., or does it also refer to the video from the CMUcam?
3. Also found it ourselves in a second reading, but thanks to DCA fan for #3.
4. I would assume that since we can connect it to get feedback, we could also run other programs on it? Or is it an incorrect assumption?

Thanks,
Guy,
Team 8

[Dan Kramer]

The tube needs to be supported by the spider leg, and not the stinger. The stinger prevents tubes from being unintentionally descored.

at the sample competition field set-up today in Chicago kick-off event, the stinger was a short (approx. 3 inch), very flexible piece of rubber tubing. I don't see it being an obstacle, easy enough to 'push past.' I believe it is there to keep tubers from bouncy off once achieving scoring position

[Aldgazar]

I found something about the STINGERS. They are 4 inches longer than the SPIDER FOOT according to the field assembly diagrams. Therefore the height of the entire SPIDER FOOT is 14 inches (1 inch longer than the inside diameter of the RINGERS). Luckily the STINGER is flexible.

[DCA Fan]

I'm not sure why you would assume you can't wrap around. As far as I can tell, the numbering is not mentioned at all in the rules, and is only used by the referees to assist them in scoring.
Just erring on the side of caution. Personally I think it will be okay, but since it's not explicitly stated, I tend to say no until they say yes.

[ahecht]

We looked around some more and found:
2. R79 says we can connect a laptop to get 'feedback' from the robot. The question is, does feedback refer to technical data, like values from the PWM, voltages, etc., or does it also refer to the video from the CMUcam?

Look at R63 and R66. Since the robot controller does not have the ability to broadcast video, any secondary broadcast of video would be disallowed by these rules. R109 does provide for a wireless camera to be installed in certain situations, but this rule is only specifically referring to "non functional decorations". If the camera is being used by the drivers, it could affect the outcome of the match, and is therefore functional and not a decoration (a non-functional decoration camera would only transmit to a recording device for later playback or to the event video mixer for display on the big screen).

[Ricky Q.]

The 2 Rules questions threads were just merged together, posts are in the order of date/time posted.

[DavidGitz]

Anybody else find an error on scoring on p 11 in Sec 7? Shouldn't the Blue alliance get 44 pts?

[insomniac6688]

Does anyone know anything about the "STINGER" besides the fact that it's a small rubber tube attached to the back of a SPIDER FOOT.

There was something about it in the Kickoff demonstration. One of the RINGERS was stuck on a rubber tube and they said it wouldn't have counted until it was all the way on the SPIDER LEG. I don't remember if this is exactly what they said about it. The manual mentions the STINGER briefly at the end of 6.2.2 (The Arena, The Rack).

From what my team and I can comprehend form the rulebook the stinger is used basically to keep the tubes from falling off. In the demonstration the robot had the tube caught on the stinger in front of the spider leg so it couldn't be scored until it was placed over the stinger.

[DCA Fan]

Anybody else find an error on scoring on p 11 in Sec 7? Shouldn't the Blue alliance get 44 pts?
Yes.
Row of 5: 32
Row of 3: 8
Singletons: 2x2
Total: 44

Good catch.

[DCA Fan]

The stingers are only there to prevent the tubes from falling off in the case of shaking. The rule states that the tube must be over the stinger to count, all other instances (ie hanging on the circular plate) will not count as scoring.

[jgannon]

do u get points for rows if u have a two row on 7 and 8 and then on 1?
This will probably be clarified in an update, but for now assume you will not.
If you watch the animation, you will see that red has ringers on 7 and 8. A robot adds one in the same row on 1, and Dave says that the robot "places another ringer, extending the row to three." As such, I would say that you should assume that you WILL.

Edit: Also, if you look at the scoring at the end, the grid has been drawn such that 7 is the first column. It looks like the numbers don't matter for the purposes of competitors, just refs.

[3DWolf]

Does anyone know if it is possible to drop a "ramp" of some sorts in the Home Zone say during auto and complete the remainder of the match? There seems to be conflicting rules saying that we can deploy mechanisms inside the home zone but another rule states that leaving mechanisms behind is a penalty....

Is the FIRST Q&A up?

I think they mean that you can drop a part at the end, but not in the beginning. Because if you were pinned at the other side of the field, and your ramps were in the home zone, it wouldn't seem fair that you would get the points for part of YOUR bot

In regards to the negation question, my team can't find anything in the rules that says you cannot do that, but the circumstances would have to be right in order for the point loss to be worth anything

[Dan Zollman]

Does anyone know if it is possible to drop a "ramp" of some sorts in the Home Zone say during auto and complete the remainder of the match? There seems to be conflicting rules saying that we can deploy mechanisms inside the home zone but another rule states that leaving mechanisms behind is a penalty....

exactly what i was thinking. just not sure if we can deliberately leave something in the home zone, which would not impede movement of any other robots. there is a specific rule stating we cant do it on the field but no clarification in the zone. i think itll b well worth the risk.....who knows well see

The zone is part of the field. Detaching a part within the zone is included when <G40> states that detachment is not allowed.

- Is the coach allowed to have a laptop/tabelt pcs/palm pilots with him when he is with the drivers during a match?

I can't find the rule, but isn't it illegal for coaches to communicate with people outside of the alliance players/drivers? This wouldn't be allowed because the referee can't be sure the coach isn't using it for communication.

Since 1 is adjacent to 8, I would assume that there IS wraparound.

However, any answer is pure speculation until an official answer (either in a Q&A or rule update) is released.

This wouldn't be speculation. Scoring is described by <G54>:

SCORING - Total point values of SCORED ROWS are as follows: ...

The rules define ROW in 7.2.1:

ROW: a set of SPIDER LEGS that are SCORED for the same ALLIANCE and are adjacent and
aligned either vertically or horizontally.

If 8 and 1 are both scored at the same level, they meet the only conditions needed to be scored as a row (legs are adjacent).

[efoote868]

<G56> ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance station, goal etc.) and the lowest point of the ROBOT is higher than 4 inches and/or 10 inches above the carpeted field surface. The number of bonus points an ALLIANCE
receives is based on the total number of ROBOTS satisfying these conditions. Each ALLIANCE ROBOT entirely in their HOME ZONE at the end of the match is eligible to receive the following bonus points:
Each ROBOT between 0 and 3.9 inches above floor level - 0 bonus points
Each ROBOT between 4.0 and 11.9 inches above floor level - 15 bonus points
Each ROBOT 12.0 inches or more above floor level - 30 bonus points

Is it 10 or 12?

[cbudrecki]

now all this talk about dropping ramps in the end zone has me wondering...

wouldn't the ramp be considered part of your robot, and therefore, if you were to be on top of the ramp at the end of the match, the lowest part of your robot (the ramp) would be touching the ground and would therefore be useless:confused:

[3DWolf]

<G56> ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance station, goal etc.) and the lowest point of the ROBOT is higher than 4 inches and/or 10 inches above the carpeted field surface. The number of bonus points an ALLIANCE
receives is based on the total number of ROBOTS satisfying these conditions. Each ALLIANCE ROBOT entirely in their HOME ZONE at the end of the match is eligible to receive the following bonus points:
Each ROBOT between 0 and 3.9 inches above floor level - 0 bonus points
Each ROBOT between 4.0 and 11.9 inches above floor level - 15 bonus points
Each ROBOT 12.0 inches or more above floor level - 30 bonus points

Is it 10 or 12?

12, the first is a typo. They said very clearly 12 in the kick off broadcast

[Billfred]

now all this talk about dropping ramps in the end zone has me wondering...

wouldn't the ramp be considered part of your robot, and therefore, if you were to be on top of the ramp at the end of the match, the lowest part of your robot (the ramp) would be touching the ground and would therefore be useless:confused:
Right--you're not getting all three off of the ground.

[cbudrecki]

Is it 10 or 12?


Good catch. And what if you're 3.900...1-3.999... they don't account for that 1/10 of an inch... I mean, sure they may give it to you, but what's the OFFICIAL ruling???

[3DWolf]

now all this talk about dropping ramps in the end zone has me wondering...

wouldn't the ramp be considered part of your robot, and therefore, if you were to be on top of the ramp at the end of the match, the lowest part of your robot (the ramp) would be touching the ground and would therefore be useless:confused:

I was discussing this with my team mates. If you deployed a sort of ramp, the ROBOT THAT DEPLOYED the ramps, would most likely NOT be counted for the final bonus points. If you can litterally DROP a ramp, and if another team made did the same, then you got on that ramp, then all bots would be counted.

[CBailey]

no, must not be touching any element of the field...

if you may not touch any part of the field then it is practically impossible to get all 3 robots of the ground

[cbudrecki]

now as far as the wrap-around topic... I'm seeing it as the numbers are simply just for reference purposes and that if you have 7,8,1 that would qualify as a row of three because, as stated once earlier, they're still adjacent tubes.

Boy, they sure are making it tough for an Excel score-sheet this year... Time to get to work...

[DanDon]

If you are carrying an inner tube, let's say using the vacuum pump, and another robot in passing knocked the tube out of your possesion, would that count as removing possesion from a team, will the 10 pt penalty be assesed? <G36>

[ScottWalls]

<G40> Detaching mechanisms - ROBOTS may not intentionally detach parts or leave multiple mechanisms on the field. Violations will result in a 10-point penalty per incident. If an intentionally detached component or mechanism significantly impedes access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT during the END GAME, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified from the match.

It is thus impossible without thrusters to get all three robots off the ground. It is highly improbable that even two will get off the ground, although it is indeed possible. The only way you could get two robots off the ground would be to have both drop ramps and move to the other's ramp. This would not work for two reasons.

First, the ramps deployed would still count as part of the robot, so the lowest point of both robots would be touching the ground, so neither of them would be scored. Second, even if you deployed some sort of ramp, you would be intentionally detaching parts, which is a penalty. I think it goes against the spirit of FIRST to suffer penalties on purpose. (Even though getting another robot off the ground high enough could push your alliance into net positive points)

[geeknerd99]

We almost need a separate rule question forum.....

I'm about to go to the shop to inventory the kit, but I kinda wanted to bring attention to another rule question before I left. It's about how to get rings into play.

That, and "rack" seems to mean both the tubes in the home zones and the actual goal too.

Heres the link. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51041)

[CBailey]

It is thus impossible without thrusters to get all three robots off the ground. It is highly improbable that even two will get off the ground, although it is indeed possible. The only way you could get two robots off the ground would be to have both drop ramps and move to the other's ramp. This would not work for two reasons.

First, the ramps deployed would still count as part of the robot, so the lowest point of both robots would be touching the ground, so neither of them would be scored. Second, even if you deployed some sort of ramp, you would be intentionally detaching parts, which is a penalty. I think it goes against the spirit of FIRST to suffer penalties on purpose. (Even though getting another robot off the ground high enough could push your alliance into net positive points)

one way you could get to robots off the ground would be to have 1 robot deploy 2 rams, one on each side, but still connected to the robot, and have the other 2 robots drive up on top of them

my only thought to get 60 bonus points would be to have 1 robot that could deploy 2 ramps then raise them to 12 inches once his opponents are on them
but i remember, in our meting today, hearing something about robots no being able to drive up on top of their opponents but i heard it from a mentor not from an official document so this statement may be false.

[jesusfreakmths]

INPROTANT!!!!

Lets say we are blue. the red team has 8 in a row. if we as the blue team take off 1 or 2 of there tubes and place them somewhere else. Does that dusrupt there row?

and can you carry around the oposite tube color so that the other team can't use it?

[BrianR]

Here's a question about keepers:


<G14> Late KEEPERS - After the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD ends, ROBOTS may not HANG any
KEEPERS for the remainder of the match. Any KEEPERS that a ROBOT may POSSESS
must be immediately released and dropped to the floor.


Can we "repossess" keepers after they have been dropped? In other words, after they have been dropped, can we "herd" them around on the floor or pick them up if they are in an inconvenient spot for example.

[Ricky Q.]

INPROTANT!!!!

Lets say we are blue. the red team has 8 in a row. if we as the blue team take off 1 or 2 of there tubes and place them somewhere else. Does that dusrupt there row?



It doesn't matter if you take them off, once they are scored they are scored for that alliance.

<G20> De-scoring - ROBOTS may not remove RINGERS or KEEPERS once they are HANGING.
If a RINGER or KEEPER is moved out of a HANGING configuration after the POSSESSING
ROBOT has released it, it is still considered HANGING. If a ROBOT incidentally removes a
RINGER or KEEPER from the SPIDER LEG on which it was HANGING (e.g. knocks it off
while placing another GAME PIECE), a 10-point penalty will be assessed. Obviously
intentional removal of a RINGER or KEEPER will result in a disqualification of the offending
team.

[Noah Kleinberg]

If you are carrying an inner tube, let's say using the vacuum pump, and another robot in passing knocked the tube out of your possesion, would that count as removing possesion from a team, will the 10 pt penalty be assesed? <G36>

My guess is that the referee would judge whether you did it intentionally or not. If you kept ramming them until the tube fell off then I think you'd get the penalty, but if you hit them once and it fell off I don't think you would.

[jesusfreakmths]

So even during the game once it is there it is there even if you move the tube in the middle of the game?

[Ricky Q.]

So even during the game once it is there it is there even if you move the tube in the middle of the game?

Yes, as the rule says, once it is hanging it stays that way, even if taken off accidentally or intentionally.

If you do it accidentally you lose 10 pts, if you are doing it intentionally you will be DQ'd and get 0 points for the match.

[jesusfreakmths]

ok what if you put on the other teams tubes. do you get DQ on that?

[Dan Zollman]

There's no reason that two robots can't fit on top of one robot.

Lets say we are blue. the red team has 8 in a row. if we as the blue team take off 1 or 2 of there tubes and place them somewhere else. Does that dusrupt there row?

Check <G20>. If you de-score a keeper or ringer intentionally, you will be disqualified. Doing that accidentally will result in a 10 point penalty. In both cases, the keeper or ringer is still counted as scored.

EDIT: Sorry, answers were posted while I was typing.

[Ricky Q.]

These rules are all right next to each other in Section 7 of the FRC Manual, The Game, go check it out and all your questions will be answered and you won't have to keep asking here.

<G21> SCORING for opponents - ROBOTS may not HANG a GAME PIECE of an opposing
ALLIANCE. If this rule is violated a 10-point penalty will be assessed per infraction.

[robind]

I'm interested in a clarification of rule <G40>
"<G40> Detaching mechanisms - ROBOTS may not intentionally detach parts or leave multiple mechanisms on the field. Violations will result in a 10-point penalty per incident. If an intentionally detached component or mechanism significantly impedes access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT during the END GAME, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified from the match."

Since it says "parts or multiple mechanisms" which would lead me to believe plural, it would seem that a robot would be allowed to simply drop a ramp at the beginning of the match and let other robots climb up on it at the end. As long as it was only one ramp.

[jesusfreakmths]

well my team 1778 has been looking in section 7 all over and we can't figure out if you are allowed to posess (carry) the oposite team tubes and or place them. In other words pick them up off the field and then place them or keep them with us. I really don't mean to ask a lot we are all having difficulty understanding the rules. there not really detiled.

[Ricky Q.]

<G21> SCORING for opponents - ROBOTS may not HANG a GAME PIECE of an opposing
ALLIANCE. If this rule is violated a 10-point penalty will be assessed per infraction.

It doesn't say anything about possessing them, that will have to be asked in the FIRST Q&A.

[insomniac6688]

I'm interested in a clarification of rule <G40>
"<G40> Detaching mechanisms - ROBOTS may not intentionally detach parts or leave multiple mechanisms on the field. Violations will result in a 10-point penalty per incident. If an intentionally detached component or mechanism significantly impedes access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT during the END GAME, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified from the match."

Since it says "parts or multiple mechanisms" which would lead me to believe plural, it would seem that a robot would be allowed to simply drop a ramp at the beginning of the match and let other robots climb up on it at the end. As long as it was only one ramp.

read section 8 it talks about the ramp issue in 8.3.1 page 7 <RO6>

[efoote868]

These rules are all right next to each other in Section 7 of the FRC Manual, The Game, go check it out and all your questions will be answered and you won't have to keep asking here.

Well put indeed. CD Etiquette people!!!

[Dan Zollman]

I'm interested in a clarification of rule <G40>
"<G40> Detaching mechanisms - ROBOTS may not intentionally detach parts or leave multiple mechanisms on the field. Violations will result in a 10-point penalty per incident. If an intentionally detached component or mechanism significantly impedes access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT during the END GAME, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified from the match."

Since it says "parts or multiple mechanisms" which would lead me to believe plural, it would seem that a robot would be allowed to simply drop a ramp at the beginning of the match and let other robots climb up on it at the end. As long as it was only one ramp.

When you say drop, do you mean that a ramp is lowered and still attached to the robot, or allowed to detach from the robot? A ramp could not be intentionally detached.

Also, the manual uses the word "deploy" in a few places, but this doesn't mean "detach". You can "deploy" a ramp if it is still connected to the robot.

well my team 1778 has been looking in section 7 all over and we can't figure out if you are allowed to posess (carry) the oposite team tubes and or place them. In other words pick them up off the field and then place them or keep them with us. I really don't mean to ask a lot we are all having difficulty understanding the rules. there not really detiled.

<G21> states:

SCORING for opponents - ROBOTS may not HANG a GAME PIECE of an opposing ALLIANCE. If this rule is violated a 10-point penalty will be assessed per infraction.

EDIT: Ahh, every time I try to post an answer, five more posts get in while I'm typing...

[robind]

When you say drop, do you mean that a ramp is lowered and still attached to the robot, or allowed to detach from the robot? A ramp could not be intentionally detached.

Also, the manual uses the word "deploy" in a few places, but this doesn't mean "detach". You can "deploy" a ramp if it is still connected to the robot.



<G21> states:

I mean detach. It says "multiple" which would mean to me "more than one" which would mean to me that you can detach one ramp and leave it sitting in the HOME ZONE. I know that elsewhere in the manual this is contradicted, but I'm hoping someone has some insight on this.

[Dylan Gramlich]

I mean detach. It says "multiple" which would mean to me "more than one" which would mean to me that you can detach one ramp and leave it sitting in the HOME ZONE. I know that elsewhere in the manual this is contradicted, but I'm hoping someone has some insight on this.

FIRST Q&A enough said.

[fireball3004]

I also have a question about deploying such extending items, and if they are included in the Starting Position Maximum height, or if they can remain un deployed until the match is started.

[Alex357]

I could not find any mention of a specific starting location for each robot... do they just have to be in the home zone?

[Dan Zollman]

FIRST Q&A enough said.

Agreed, Q&A answer needed before we can be sure.

If you look at <G29> of last year's manual, however, it uses the same wording:
Detaching Mechanisms - ROBOTs may not intentionally detach parts or leave multiple mechanisms on
the field. Violations will result in a 5-point penalty. If an intentionally detached component or
mechanism impedes access to a ramp or a goal, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified from the
match.




I also have a question about deploying such extending items, and if they are included in the Starting Position Maximum height, or if they can remain un deployed until the match is started.

For your starting position, the extending items can be in any position you want, extended or unextended, as long as the starting position of the entire robot fits within the starting size limits.

[DavidGitz]

if you may not touch any part of the field then it is practically impossible to get all 3 robots of the ground

Anybody see anything yet about driving on to one of the tubes to get 4" up? Can't intentionally damage the playing piece, but obviously you don't want to damge it because you need it to be functional. Thought in the demo video that in the corner of the screen it had a robot on top of a tube.

[Lil' Lavery]

Anybody see anything yet about driving on to one of the tubes to get 4" up? Can't intentionally damage the playing piece, but obviously you don't want to damge it because you need it to be functional. Thought in the demo video that in the corner of the screen it had a robot on top of a tube.

Somehow once you drive on it I don't believe you will be 4" high anymore... ;)
And it actually is addressed somewhat in the manual:
<R37>...Bumper height has been specified so that ROBOTS will make contact bumper-to-bumper and so that the GAME PIECES will be pushed rather than pulled under the ROBOTS....
While this isn't really a rule, it suggests that it wouldn't be advised to drive on game pieces, and would be against the spirit of this and other rules (namely no damaging field elements).

[Lil' Lavery]

If you are carrying an inner tube, let's say using the vacuum pump, and another robot in passing knocked the tube out of your possesion, would that count as removing possesion from a team, will the 10 pt penalty be assesed? <G36>

<G36> Goal defense - ROBOTS may defend SPIDER LEGS by pushing and/or blocking other ROBOTS as they attempt to HANG GAME PIECES. If a ROBOT is holding a GAME PIECE, a ROBOT on the opposing ALLIANCE may not grasp/attach to the GAME PIECE in order to remove it from their POSSESSION or prevent them from HANGING. A violation will result in a 10-point penalty being assessed to the offending ROBOT.

That wording suggests that contact with game object in the possession of other robots is allowed, as long as you are not actively attempting to grasp, pull, or attach to them. So, if a gripper allow for an object to fall off easily, you should be able to bump it off.

[DanDon]

That wording suggests that contact with game object in the possession of other robots is allowed, as long as you are not actively attempting to grasp, pull, or attach to them. So, if a gripper allow for an object to fall off easily, you should be able to bump it off.

What if another robot pops the game piece in your possesion?

[Noah Kleinberg]

What if another robot pops the game piece in your possesion?

Deflated GAME PIECES - A GAME PIECE that has been deflated is evaluated the same as one that is inflated when determining the match score. Intentionally deflating a GAME PIECE is considered field damage (see <G34>).

So if it's on purpose, then they might be disabled according to <G34>, or be required to remove whatever piece popped it and then be reinspected. Either way though it still counts as a normal tube.

[ewankoff]

For all the people speculatin on the multiple item on the floor, consider your robot as a seperate part. So having a ramp detached and your robot on the field would count as multiple parts deployed and in violation of that rule.

[hallk]

I'm interested in a clarification of rule <G40>
"<G40> Detaching mechanisms - ROBOTS may not intentionally detach parts or leave multiple mechanisms on the field. Violations will result in a 10-point penalty per incident. If an intentionally detached component or mechanism significantly impedes access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT during the END GAME, the offending ROBOT will be disqualified from the match."

Since it says "parts or multiple mechanisms" which would lead me to believe plural, it would seem that a robot would be allowed to simply drop a ramp at the beginning of the match and let other robots climb up on it at the end. As long as it was only one ramp.

Why would it only have to be one ramp?

[robind]

Why would it only have to be one ramp?


multiple parts. But whatever, I can't really see much of a use for being able to do that anyhow.

[Pavan Dave]

What confuses me is the terms in bold above... First they say you may not leave multiple parts, and then they talk about penalties for single (an intentionally detached component or mechanism) parts...

Regardless, it seems as long as your component does not "impede access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT," the 10-point penalty may be worth the risk. Then again, is it truly in the spirit of FIRST to intentionally earn a penalty to win the game;)

It is NOT in the spirit of FIRST but to some people, even in FIRST, winning is everything and to win is to prove something to others. But this is very true in the world we live in. Numbers speak for themselves, but how you got those numbers does not matter as much.

Pavan.

[T3_1565]

I do agree with many on this, By detaching a ramp from your robot it is considered to be a part of your robot, because if it isn't then it is a violation of the rules, but there are many other ways to get a robot off the ground :p.

Also, it is impossible for all three robots to be off the field at the end of the game as at least one must lift ( and/or support) the other robots.

I do have a question though. Are we allowed to carry more than one of our own game pieces?? It may of been mentioned in the brodcast, but I was busy writing things down and may of missed it. Someone on my team told me that you couldn't and someone else told me there wasnt anything against it. Just need to clarify.

[DanDon]

I do agree with many on this, By detaching a ramp from your robot it is considered to be a part of your robot, because if it isn't then it is a violation of the rules, but there are many other ways to get a robot off the ground :p.

Also, it is impossible for all three robots to be off the field at the end of the game as at least one must lift ( and/or support) the other robots.

I do have a question though. Are we allowed to carry more than one of our own game pieces?? It may of been mentioned in the brodcast, but I was busy writing things down and may of missed it. Someone on my team told me that you couldn't and someone else told me there wasnt anything against it. Just need to clarify.

You can only be in possession of one game piece at a time. <G09>

[T3_1565]

oh, ok thanks! Didn't even notice. I think I skipped the first few words in that rule. lol

[pbhead]

deployed stuffs desigend to lift robots...


I dont know about you all, but depoyed sure sounds like... umm.... let me google it.



de·ploy (dĭ-ploi')

v., -ployed, -ploy·ing, -ploys.

v.tr.

To position (troops) in readiness for combat, as along a front or line.
To bring (forces or material) into action.
To base (a weapons system) in the field.
To distribute (persons or forces) systematically or strategically.
To put into use or action: “Samuel Beckett's friends suspected that he was a genius, yet no one knew . . . how his abilities would be deployed” (Richard Ellmann).
v.intr.
To be or become deployed.

deploy

verb

To put into a deliberate order: arrange, array, dispose, marshal, order, organize, range, sort, systematize. See order/disorder.


deploy
v
Definition: redistribute, station troops or weapons


The verb deploy has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: place troops or weapons in battle formation


Meaning #2: to distribute systematically or strategically


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


anyway... deploy sounds like... to put/place. and in most of those examples, what is deployed in not connected to the thing that deployed. I think you should be able to deploy a ramp, or other lifting mechanizim... and as long as they arnt physically attached by anything more than touching... then you should be able to used deployed ramps.

In a certain game i play(not the one in sig), when i die... i get the message: deployed defences shot down pbhead! and the defences are certainly not attached to who ever deployed them...


I dont know... i think a robot should be able to make itself score those points... its kinda odd if it could not.

and that rule about mechanizims.... what i think they mean there, is that you cant have a seprate entity on the field... meaning you cant have a romote contoled crame to lift yourself up... once its disattached... it cant act like a mechanizim... so if you... say blew up a really big ballon under your robot, and then unhooked the air... and then it would elevate you, and would no longer be part of your robot... since its just a bag 0' air...


i dont know... i am stupid.

[sciencenerd]

Anybody see anything yet about driving on to one of the tubes to get 4" up? Can't intentionally damage the playing piece, but obviously you don't want to damge it because you need it to be functional. Thought in the demo video that in the corner of the screen it had a robot on top of a tube.



<G56> ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance station, goal etc.) and the lowest point of the ROBOT is higher than 4 inches and/or 10 inches above the carpeted field surface.


In addition to the point above about possibly getting dinged for field damage because of this, I would say that the game objects count as "elements of the field." This would mean you are in contact with an "element of the field" because you are sitting on the toroid which negates the bonus points.

[groves]

can yom move the center goal? rotate?

[T3_1565]

I dont know... i think a robot should be able to make itself score those points... its kinda odd if it could not.
Well FIRST is all about teamwork and sportmanship, robots were always given options for things. Like ethier build a bot that can be lifted or build a bot that can do the lifting. Its a choice, Its part of the stratagy.

Teamwork is always key, just hope you work well with your teammates lol.

[Dan Zollman]

Somehow once you drive on it I don't believe you will be 4" high anymore... ;)
And it actually is addressed somewhat in the manual:

<R37>...Bumper height has been specified so that ROBOTS will make contact bumper-to-bumper and so that the GAME PIECES will be pushed rather than pulled under the ROBOTS....

While this isn't really a rule, it suggests that it wouldn't be advised to drive on game pieces, and would be against the spirit of this and other rules (namely no damaging field elements).

If you set four game pieces on the ground next to each other and you had a light robot, they would be able to support the weight at 4".
But I'm not really sure what to make of <R37>, since that wouldn't be "pulling" but I don't know if it honors the intent of the rule.

And it's true that the "game piece" may or may not be an "element". Another thing for the Q&A.

[Maximus123]

can yom move the center goal? rotate?

<g33> in sec 7, pg 8 of 13. the robot can touch and bump it, but you cant just grab ahold of the thing and spin it to any advantage or defensive maneuver. pertaining to the constant debate on the bonus points, its sounding like its impossible to ge t more than 60 unless we can totally levitate, and if some 1 did levitate/hover, ill give them a box of donuts. it even says on page 4 in the introduction, rev a, "Alliances may score some additional points if, by the end of the match, their robots are in their home zone (which btw, is classified as part of the field, section 6, 6.1 overview, shows the home zones a being shown as part of the field) and have been lifted off the floor by 4" or more by ANOTHER Robot before the final buzzer sounds."

[paradoxal]

one way you could get to robots off the ground would be to have 1 robot deploy 2 rams, one on each side, but still connected to the robot, and have the other 2 robots drive up on top of them

my only thought to get 60 bonus points would be to have 1 robot that could deploy 2 ramps then raise them to 12 inches once his opponents are on them
but i remember, in our meting today, hearing something about robots no being able to drive up on top of their opponents but i heard it from a mentor not from an official document so this statement may be false.

rule G35, 6th bullet, you may climb/attach to a robot of your own alliance

[HUNT397]

<R46> Items specifically PROHIBITED from use include:
 Batteries different from, or in addition to, those provided in the Kit Of Parts.
I am a little confused about this rule. Does it mean that the two batteries we have are the only ones we can bring and use? If so power management is going to be fun, especially with back to back matches.

[cbudrecki]

pertaining to the constant debate on the bonus points, its sounding like its impossible to get more than 60 unless we can totally levitate, and if some 1 did levitate/hover, ill give them a box of donuts.

even if some team did miraculously manage to levitate, they would have to be able to do so under NO power. Remember, all measurements are (at least usually) taken at the end of the match, after power is killed to the field. Unless you have a drive team with amazing mental capabilities (and I'm sure they would write something in the rules about that...), good luck getting a 100+ pound robot to stay in the air.

As stated earlier, FIRST is all about teamwork, they don't want ONE team to be able to do everything alone. Just remember some key terms that FIRST has coined: Co-Opertition, and of course, GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM! :D

[paradoxal]

even if some team did miraculously manage to levitate, they would have to be able to do so under NO power. Remember, all measurements are (at least usually) taken at the end of the match, after power is killed to the field. Unless you have a drive team with amazing mental capabilities (and I'm sure they would write something in the rules about that...), good luck getting a 100+ pound robot to stay in the air.

As stated earlier, FIRST is all about teamwork, they don't want ONE team to be able to do everything alone. Just remember some key terms that FIRST has coined: Co-Opertition, and of course, GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM! :D

um, it would most likely be more like 300 lb+, since the one levatating robot would be supporting the other 2, and if it isnt, then thats a waste, and the mind is a terrible thing to waste

[paradoxal]

also, on the 4th to last row of scoring diagrams in section 7, (the blue/blue keeper, red/red keeper), wouldnt it be scored as the color underneath, since the late keepers are ignored during scoring?

[Maximus123]

also, on the 4th to last row of scoring diagrams in section 7, (the blue/blue keeper, red/red keeper), wouldnt it be scored as the color underneath, since the late keepers are ignored during scoring?

<g14> sec 7, pg 6.they are ignored, but if it is put on by the same team on the same color, they would be disqualified (dumb idea to do it anyways) and they would cancel each other out, meaning no points, and a dq.

[Maximus123]

<R46> Items specifically PROHIBITED from use include:
 Batteries different from, or in addition to, those provided in the Kit Of Parts.
I am a little confused about this rule. Does it mean that the two batteries we have are the only ones we can bring and use? If so power management is going to be fun, especially with back to back matches.

good point, its very late on the east coast, and my quest to memorize the rule book is getting hazy. i did discuss today that that rule means that no previous years' batteries can be used, only the models this year, so you can buy more batteries of the same model, just cant use previous year's batteries. tomorrow if this hasn't been fully cleared up, ill find the rule or depict it the best i can.

[Maximus123]

one thing that i actually got caught up on was 2 very conflicting rules. first <g23> sec 7, pg 7 it states that "GAME PIECES may only be entered onto the field through the CHUTE." and then <g48> states that "...either by attempting to throw it to a ROBOT or onto the RACK(which in my opnion would be close to imposible, do to the 3 inches we have to vary with the inner diameter of the tubes and the 10 inch diameter of the foot, plus the 4" STINGER)..." and then ti goes on and says " if GAME PIECES are thrown , they must be thrown over the top of the alliance station wall..."

[Maximus123]

good point, its very late on the east coast, and my quest to memorize the rule book is getting hazy. i did discuss today that that rule means that no previous years' batteries can be used, only the models this year, so you can buy more batteries of the same model, just cant use previous year's batteries. tomorrow if this hasn't been fully cleared up, ill find the rule or depict it the best i can.

<r53> sec 8, pg 21. you can ONLY purchase and use the 2007 model batteries, ES17-12, from MK Battery, in qualifier and elimination matches. other year batteries can be used in development and PRACTICE matches ONLY.

[EricH]

<r53> sec 8, pg 21. you can ONLY purchase and use the 2007 model batteries, ES17-12, from MK Battery, in qualifier and elimination matches. other year batteries can be used in development and PRACTICE matches ONLY.
To add to this, you can go out and buy more batteries OF THIS TYPE ONLY. This has been the rule previously, as in any battery of the type supplied in the KOP is legal and any other type is not.

[Wbrown0389]

now all this talk about dropping ramps in the end zone has me wondering...

wouldn't the ramp be considered part of your robot, and therefore, if you were to be on top of the ramp at the end of the match, the lowest part of your robot (the ramp) would be touching the ground and would therefore be useless:confused:

the ramp wouldnt be used for your robot....just the other robot(s). ultimately to the best of my knowledge, the max u can score bonus-wise is 60 pts. no way to get all 3 in the air unless dropping a ramp is allowed, meaning that not only would i have to drop one, but another team woudl also....

[Juju1031]

im not clear on if we have to use thes year gearboxes design or are we allowed to or can we use last years design

[Dominicano0519]

By the way did anyone really understand the procedure to start a match

specifically where the ref puts the rack in motion
does he shake it or spin it

and can the rack be spun throughout the match or do the spiders just swing in pendulum fashion?

please dont say things you are not sure of thanx

[Dominicano0519]

rule G35, 6th bullet, you may climb/attach to a robot of your own alliance


<R05> "Wedge” ROBOTS are not allowed. ROBOTS must be designed so that interaction with opposing ROBOTS results in pushing rather than tipping or lifting. Neither offensive nor defensive wedges are allowed. All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical. Devices deployed outside the ROBOT footprint should be designed to avoid wedging. If a mechanism or an appendage (e.g. a harvester for retrieving GAME PIECES) becomes a wedge that interferes with other ROBOTS, penalties, disabling, or disqualification can occur depending on the severity of the infraction.

ramped robots aren't allowed on opponents but then this rule comes in

<R06> Ramps, platforms as other mechanisms specifically designed to elevate ROBOTS during the END GAME are exempt from Rule <R05> when they are deployed in the HOME ZONE. Such devices deployed outside the HOME ZONE are not covered by this exemption.

[JohnBoucher]

9.3.8 Ranking Score
The total number of ranking points earned by a team throughout their qualification matches,
divided by the number of matches played (excluding any SURROGATE matches), then truncated
to two decimal places, will be their ranking score. Note: because your ranking score is derived
directly from the match scores of the losing ALLIANCES in the matches you play, it is in your best
interest to support your opponents and win by helping each ALLIANCE score as many points as
possible.If you can't score an opponents playing piece, how can you help each Alliance???

[Travis Hoffman]

If you can't score an opponents playing piece, how can you help each Alliance???

LOL I was wondering that myself.

Don't play defense? Don't deploy spoilers? Lose???

The art of coopertition seems a bit lost in this year's game.

[OZ_341]

one thing that i actually got caught up on was 2 very conflicting rules. first <g23> sec 7, pg 7 it states that "GAME PIECES may only be entered onto the field through the CHUTE." and then <g48> ........

These rules ( g23 and g 48 ) are a clear and obvious conflict. This could be critical if you want to feed your robot in a different way than through the chute.

Hopefully this will get cleared up soon.

[Aldgazar]

I think that rule g23 is claiming that RINGERS can only go one way through the chute, onto the field, and not the other way, into the alliance zone. This prevents teams ffom hoarding the RINGERS where the other team cannot go. Same idea goes for RINGERS thrown off the field, they get placed back on when it is safe g22 (the previous rule)

This means that it is ok to throw the RINGERS over the alliance station wall and to send them through the chute onto the field, but not through the chute to the alliance zone.

[Maximus123]

By the way did anyone really understand the procedure to start a match

specifically where the ref puts the rack in motion
does he shake it or spin it

and can the rack be spun throughout the match or do the spiders just swing in pendulum fashion?

please dont say things you are not sure of thanx

<g07> sec 7, pg 5. "Center RACK position - After all six ROBOTS are in their starting positions and the DRIVERS, COACHES and HUMAN PLAYERS are in the ALLIANCE ZONE, the RACK will be moved (translated and/or rotated) to an arbitrary position so that the center of the RACK is within a 3 foot radius of the playing field center but the exact location and orientation of
the RACK is unpredictable. After this point in time no ROBOT may be moved or
repositioned until the match starts."
this means thats after all roborts have been properly set in the home field and all students and mentors leave the field, the refs on the field go and randomly spin it either left or right, AND it can be pushed or pulled around up to 3 feet away from the exact center of the field. so not only that it could be rotated, it can be relocated.

[Maximus123]

I think that rule g23 is claiming that RINGERS can only go one way through the chute, onto the field, and not the other way, into the alliance zone. This prevents teams ffom hoarding the RINGERS where the other team cannot go. Same idea goes for RINGERS thrown off the field, they get placed back on when it is safe g22 (the previous rule)

This means that it is ok to throw the RINGERS over the alliance station wall and to send them through the chute onto the field, but not through the chute to the alliance zone.

<g23> states that any game piece( which means ringers and spoliers only)can be passed form alliance zone into field through the chute, not the other way around, as you said. <g48>
states that they can enter game pieces by throwing it over the wall(from the start, not just if it was dropped out of the field, which would be put right back where it was put right inside field)passing through the chute, either to a robot or to the ground fr a robot pcikup.

[efoote868]

with regard to g09:
Herding of multiple GAME PIECES, or herding of a GAME PIECE on the floor while in POSSESSION of another GAME PIECE is not permitted (as this would be considered POSSESSION of more than one GAME PIECE)

Is this going to apply to the last 15 seconds of a match, when a robot that somehow unfolded (to get other alliance members off the floor), and as a direct result of that action pushed out of the way several game pieces?

[Maximus123]

with regard to g09:
Herding of multiple GAME PIECES, or herding of a GAME PIECE on the floor while in POSSESSION of another GAME PIECE is not permitted (as this would be considered POSSESSION of more than one GAME PIECE)

Is this going to apply to the last 15 seconds of a match, when a robot that somehow unfolded (to get other alliance members off the floor), and as a direct result of that action pushed out of the way several game pieces?

as long as your not "herding" them around, and from what i understand, you can only "deploy" your full robot in the home zone safely so no rules will be infringed. you can deploy your robot fully out to 72 inch by 72 inch on the field, but the wedge rule it VERY strict this year.

[gblake]

Regardless, it seems as long as your component does not "impede access to the RACK or an ALLIANCE ROBOT," the 10-point penalty may be worth the risk. Then again, is it truly in the spirit of FIRST to intentionally earn a penalty to win the gameIt is NOT in the spirit of FIRST but to some people, even in FIRST, winning is everything and to win is to prove something to others. But this is very true in the world we live in. Numbers speak for themselves, but how you got those numbers does not matter as much.9.3.8 Ranking Score
The total number of ranking points earned by a team throughout their qualification matches, divided by the number of matches played (excluding any SURROGATE matches), then truncated to two decimal places, will be their ranking score. Note: because your ranking score is derived directly from the match scores of the losing ALLIANCES in the matches you play, it is in your best interest to support your opponents and win by helping each ALLIANCE score as many points as possible.
I am curious if there is a quick pointer to some FORMAL statement that suffering a penalty (even one that results in your robot being disabled), in order to keep from losing a match, is "against" the spirit of FIRST.

With the exception of actions that cause one's team to be disqualified, I tend to think of penalties as just "points". Some points are added to your score. Some points are subtracted from your score.

With the exception of actions that are cause for a DQ, I am unaware of anything immoral, malicious or ungracious about reducing your own alliance's score somewhat, in order to avoid seeing the opposing alliance's score grow enough defeat your alliance.

If the actions that generate negative points were against the spirit of FIRST, then I would presume that FIRST would simply DQ you for doing them. Instead most penalties seem to be designed to emphasize having teams accumulate postive points, but not exclude occasionally making the wise choice of picking up a few negative points in order to avoid completely losing a match.

After all, match points are used before ranking points are used.

Is there a pointer to a RULE?

Thanks
Blake

[George1902]

If the actions that generate negative points were against the spirit of FIRST, then I would presume that FIRST would simply DQ you for doing them. Instead most penalties seem to be designed to emphasize having teams accumulate postive points, but not exclude occasionally making the wise choice of picking up a few negative points in order to avoid completely losing a match.Blake is exactly right. In many competitions, competitors may choose to take a penalty as a better outcome in a game. In football an offense may take a "Delay of Game" penalty to give their punter more room to kick. A defensive back may take a "Pass Interference" penalty to prevent a touchdown. In baseball a pitcher will often intentionally walk opposing batters to create a favorable situation for the defense. In chess it's common to sacrifice a piece to gain position or initiative.

If the GDC wanted these actions to be outlawed completely, they would have made the penalties harsher. As it stands, I'll gladly take -20 points for my alliance to turn their 256-point row of eight into three four-point rows of two if I can't get my hands on any spoilers.

[mstrjdilrd]

if u take off an opponents ring from the rack would u get a double penalty for taking a ring off and holding an opponents ring. if this has already been answered please just direct me.

[Imajie]

I don't believe that the rules say anything about POSSESING an opponents ring, just scoring it.

[Dan Zollman]

Blake is exactly right. In many competitions, competitors may choose to take a penalty as a better outcome in a game. In football an offense may take a "Delay of Game" penalty to give their punter more room to kick. A defensive back may take a "Pass Interference" penalty to prevent a touchdown. In baseball a pitcher will often intentionally walk opposing batters to create a favorable situation for the defense. In chess it's common to sacrifice a piece to gain position or initiative.

In some games, competitors make tradeoffs to gain an advantage, but in many other games, intentionally breaking a rule just because the normal penalty won't hurt you is considered straight-out cheating.

[+()c|D]

I don't believe that the rules say anything about POSSESING an opponents ring, just scoring it.

So, theoretiocally, you could posses two or more of your opponents rings, and the only penalty you could get is a 10 pointer for having more than one ringer.

Or you could knock over any of their rings in your home zome without a penalty.

[Aldgazar]

<g23> states that any game piece( which means ringers and spoilers only)can be passed form alliance zone into field through the chute, not the other way around, as you said. <g48>
states that they can enter game pieces by throwing it over the wall(from the start, not just if it was dropped out of the field, which would be put right back where it was put right inside field)passing through the chute, either to a robot or to the ground fr a robot pickup.

I was trying to say that rules <g23> and g<48> do not conflict because <g23> refers to how the ringers move through the chute, towards field only. <g48> refers to the different actions that a Human Player can do, either push a ringer through the chute or throwing them over the wall.

Rule <g22> is only for ringers that exit the field on the sides. <g23> and <g22> both refer to ringers going onto the field but from different areas.

[Caseavong]

Does it say any where in the rules that we cant knock down our opponents ringers after/during the Autonomous mode.

[paradoxal]

rule G20, bottom of page 6 in section 7 gives all the details

[DanDon]

I believe that the question refers to the ringers that are leaning against the player station wall at the beginning of the match.

[dez250]

<G20>De-scoring - ROBOTS may not remove RINGERS or KEEPERS once they are HANGING.
If a RINGER or KEEPER is moved out of a HANGING configuration after the POSSESSING
ROBOT has released it, it is still considered HANGING. If a ROBOT incidentally removes a
RINGER or KEEPER from the SPIDER LEG on which it was HANGING (e.g. knocks it off
while placing another GAME PIECE), a 10-point penalty will be assessed. Obviously
intentional removal of a RINGER or KEEPER will result in a disqualification of the offending
team.

[paradoxal]

<g07> sec 7, pg 5. "Center RACK position - After all six ROBOTS are in their starting positions and the DRIVERS, COACHES and HUMAN PLAYERS are in the ALLIANCE ZONE, the RACK will be moved (translated and/or rotated) to an arbitrary position so that the center of the RACK is within a 3 foot radius of the playing field center but the exact location and orientation of
the RACK is unpredictable. After this point in time no ROBOT may be moved or
repositioned until the match starts."
this means thats after all roborts have been properly set in the home field and all students and mentors leave the field, the refs on the field go and randomly spin it either left or right, AND it can be pushed or pulled around up to 3 feet away from the exact center of the field. so not only that it could be rotated, it can be relocated.

i think the guy was asking if the legs are in motion or not after the movement of the rack.

[jgannon]

I believe that the question refers to the ringers that are leaning against the player station wall at the beginning of the match.
I don't know if that's what the original poster meant, but I'd sure like to know what the rule on that is. Touching an opponent's game piece is legal, "herding" multiple game pieces is not. Is knocking them down going to be counted as herding, since you'll probably end up pushing them together?

[DanDon]

I don't know if that's what the original poster meant, but I'd sure like to know what the rule on that is. Touching an opponent's game piece is legal, "herding" multiple game pieces is not. Is knocking them down going to be counted as herding, since you'll probably end up pushing them together?

I believe that if you knock each one down individually it would technically be legal, but i feel that this is a question for the Q&A.

[Caseavong]

I was talking about the 9 ringers that were leaning on your side of the field when the game starts. There isnt a rule saying that you cant knock down your opponents ringers is there?

[jgannon]

In many competitions, competitors may choose to take a penalty as a better outcome in a game. In football an offense may take a "Delay of Game" penalty to give their punter more room to kick. A defensive back may take a "Pass Interference" penalty to prevent a touchdown. In baseball a pitcher will often intentionally walk opposing batters to create a favorable situation for the defense. In chess it's common to sacrifice a piece to gain position or initiative.
In some games, competitors make tradeoffs to gain an advantage, but in many other games, intentionally breaking a rule just because the normal penalty won't hurt you is considered straight-out cheating.
An intentional walk in baseball or sacrificing a piece in chess are not breaking rules. However, an intentional delay of game or pass interference penalty in football, or an intentional foul in basketball (as in, when you foul someone to stop the clock and get the ball back) are definitely in violation of the rules, but they can be smart, and they are not necessarily ingracious. Doing ridiculous stunts after scoring a touchdown (think Chad Johnson or Terrell Owens) just because the $25k penalty doesn't mean much to you is ingracious; it's about breaking the rules because you're a jerk, not because it's part of the competition.

In any case, <G20> says that intentional descoring is a DQ. If it were only a 10 point penalty, I would plan on doing it, I would plan on seeing it done, and I wouldn't feel it ingracious on either side.

[BrianR]

I have found a very interesting/disturbing problem.

The rules are very clear about possessing multiple tubes. My question then becomes... every team is required to have a flag above their robot. I understand this isn't GP, but that isn't the question at hand. If a team were to place a ringer on another teams flag, I believe this constitute possession of a ringer for that team, and thus they would incur the 10 pt penalty every time they picked up another ringer.

This is clearly against the intent of the game, but I want it to get out there well before regionals start.

Possible solutions to this problem:

Remove flags from robots
Don't count ringers possessed by flags as in the possession of a robot (creates other problems)
Penalize teams for putting ringers there (needs to be severe enough as a deterant)
Yellow Card? (utilizes a new rule! Yeah!)


I can't say any of these are perfect solutions, but I think that this needs to be addressed as it could cause major problems during the competition.

Obviously something needs to be done, otherwise we'll end up playing a massive game of pin the tail on the donkey, err drop the ring on the robot.

[MaskedShadow]

2 questions actually

1. If your robot gets disabled/breaks down in your opponents end zone, do you still receive the penalty at the "end game"?

2. If your opponent blocks you from leaving their end zone, and forces you to stay in there, do you receive a penalty during the "end game"?

[Imajie]

<G25> END GAME play – ROBOTS may not occupy the opponents HOME ZONE during the END
GAME. Any ROBOT in an opponent’s HOME ZONE at the start of the END GAME will be
assessed a 10-point penalty. A second 10-point penalty will be assessed if the ROBOT is
still in the HOME ZONE 5 seconds after the start of the END GAME. Another 10-point
penalty will be assessed if the ROBOT remains in the HOME ZONE 10 seconds after the
start of the END GAME. However, a ROBOT that has been blocked or otherwise prevented
from exiting the HOME ZONE (as described in Rule <G24>) will not be assessed any
penalty.

So if blocked you don't get penalized.

[+()c|D]

Touching an opponent's game piece is legal, "herding" multiple game pieces is not. Is knocking them down going to be counted as herding, since you'll probably end up pushing them together?

Where is the rule that talkes about "herding" the gamepeices. I know it says that you cannot have more than one peice on the robot, but i dont think it says anything about pushing them around.

[ewankoff]

Where is the rule that talkes about "herding" the gamepeices. I know it says that you cannot have more than one peice on the robot, but i dont think it says anything about pushing them around.

POSSESSION - ROBOTS may only have 1 (one) GAME PIECE in their POSSESSION at
any time during the match. Inadvertent bulldozing of GAME PIECES while the ROBOT
moves around the field is allowed. Controlled "herding" of a single GAME PIECE lying on
the floor is permitted as long as no other GAME PIECE is in the POSSESSION of the
ROBOT. Herding of multiple GAME PIECES, or herding of a GAME PIECE on the floor
while in POSSESSION of another GAME PIECE is not permitted (as this would be
considered POSSESSION of more than one GAME PIECE).

according to this rule herding is illeagal

[smurfgirl]

[QUOTE=worldbringer;549280]There's no reason that two robots can't fit on top of one robot.[QUOTE]

Remember, a robot can expand as far as it wants during the end game within the confines of the home zone and the ceiling; that's up to 8' by 26'8" by ceiling height. I think two robots can fit in that space.

[smurfgirl]

well my team 1778 has been looking in section 7 all over and we can't figure out if you are allowed to posess (carry) the oposite team tubes and or place them. In other words pick them up off the field and then place them or keep them with us. I really don't mean to ask a lot we are all having difficulty understanding the rules. there not really detiled.

No, you will get a 10-point penalty for doing that.

[smurfgirl]

Anybody see anything yet about driving on to one of the tubes to get 4" up? Can't intentionally damage the playing piece, but obviously you don't want to damge it because you need it to be functional. Thought in the demo video that in the corner of the screen it had a robot on top of a tube.

I have a feeling that this thread will help you think about this issue:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51133

[paradoxal]

you get a penalty for scoring a opponents piece, not carrying it

[Noah Kleinberg]

Close. There is no limit to height during the game, but the max length and width are each 72 inches.

<R12>

R12 also states that inside the home zone there is no limit to length and width; they were talking about expanding in the home zone at the end of the game so that robots can climb onto you

[JYang]

Are you allowed to hold a ringer through the chute and have your hand on the playing field side of the control area? Also, are you allowed to have your robot arm reach into the control area to pick up a ringer?

[Ricky Q.]

Are you allowed to hold a ringer through the chute and have your hand on the playing field side of the control area? Also, are you allowed to have your robot arm reach into the control area to pick up a ringer?

<S02>HUMAN PLAYERS, DRIVERS, and COACHES may not directly contact any ROBOT at any time during the match. Illegal contact will result in the disabling of the TEAM'S ROBOT for the remainder of the match.

<S03>ROBOTS can not break the plane of the CHUTE. Violating this rule may result in the disabling of the ROBOT for the remainder of the match.

[Karthik]

Okay, we're at over 100 posts in this thread, and there are discussions about at least 10 different rules. I'm closing this thread for the sake of keeping things organized. Please continue to discuss these rules, but start a new thread, and title it appropriately. For example, "<R12> robot expansion rules". This will make it much easier for people to find information about specific rules. Thanks.