G23 vs. G48

[geeknerd99]

G23 says that the only way to enter game pieces onto the field is through the chute. Meanwhile, G48 goes into detail about how human players can throw game pieces over the alliance station wall onto the field, and even the rack.

Which one is correct?

[P.J. Baker]

G23 appears to address only the chute, saying that the chute is a one-way device (HP to robot) and can not be used to pass from robot to HP. G48 is a global rule which covers all of the ways the tubes may enter.

[FourPenguins]

G23 appears to address only the chute, saying that the chute is a one-way device (HP to robot) and can not be used to pass from robot to HP. G48 is a global rule which covers all of the ways the tubes may enter.

I agree. However, as worded, there is no proof that g48 supercedes the other interpretation of g23. I'd like to hear from someone in FIRST on this rule, just to confirm this.

[Tetraman]

The only time a human player and robot can touch a ringer at the same time is through the chute.

[DCA Fan]

The only time a human player and robot can touch a ringer at the same time is through the chute.
This is the gist of it. Rings may enter the field over the station walls, but they may not be direct interaction between the human player and robot unless using the chute.

[Jeremytice]

I agree with you. I think that they are just talking about the Chute and how it is a one-way device.

[ahecht]

Read G23 as follows:

<G23> GAME PIECES through CHUTE – GAME PIECES may only be entered onto the field
through the CHUTE (see Rule <G08>). ROBOTS may not pass GAME PIECES from the
Playing Field through the CHUTE into the Alliance Zone.The key word is entered, not only. Therefore, I predict that this rule will be updated to read "The CHUTE may only be used to enter GAME PIECES onto the field."

[Tetraman]

The key word is entered, not only. However, I predict that this rule will be updated to read "The CHUTE may only be used to enter GAME PIECES onto the field."

Except <G48> reads:

...either by attempting to throw it to a robot or onto the rack...

followed by

...If Game Pieces are thrown, they must be thrown over the top of the alliance station wall...

[Dan Zollman]

Interesting...that could eliminate the need to drive back and forth between the rack and the wall.

On the other hand, throwing the game pieces could damage robots, knock flags off, get in the way of robots being lifted by platforms...

[Ericgehrken]

G23 is located under Match Play and G48 is located under Team Member Action in the manual. R23 has a "see G08" about obtaining game which states that a robot may pick up a tube from the playing field surface. The rule about the Human Player actions states that a tube may be sent through the chute and/or by being thrown to over the field wall on their alliance side so that the robot can catch it or pick it up from the field surface. So in the end if the human player tosses the tube over the alliance wall or passes it through the chute the tube may legally enter game play for whatever that particular tube is eligible for (spoiling or ringers).

[|20807 61|2|_]

I remember reading in the rule book that any other interaction between anyone and the robot other than the HP giving the robot tubes through the chute results in immeadiate disqualification from that match. Correct me if I am wrong but I'm almost positive

[Cyberguy34000]

... On the other hand, throwing the game pieces could damage robots, knock flags off, get in the way of robots being lifted by platforms...

AGHH!! Shield the robot! It's raining plastic pool tubes from above! Take cover! (dives under the control station)

Sorry couldn't resist that one.


In all seriousness, I don't think we have to worry about raining pool tubes damaging anything. I dare you to attempt to injure someone with one of these tubes. Aside from excessive and repeated whacking, or popping a tube right next someone's ear (ouch). There's really no way to hurt people with these things.

Now damage from the rubber balls from last year were a real concern, repeated pummelings from large chunks of rubber can hurt quite a bit, but teams managed to build robots (and flag holders) that withstood those just fine.

So, once you consider this stuff, I don't think we should have to really worry about the deadly tubes of robot destruction. :D

[Tetraman]

the ringers will pop before they bust metal.

[+()c|D]

it seems like the only "legal" way for the human player to pass on the game peices is through the shoot.
"<G23> GAME PIECES through CHUTE – GAME PIECES may only be entered onto the field through the CHUTE (see Rule <G08>)."
"Obtaining GAME PIECES - ROBOTS may obtain GAME PIECES via any of the following
methods: ...
Grasping RINGERS or SPOILERS that have been placed in the CHUTE by the HUMAN PLAYER"

That is the only part of G8 that says anything about human players, so I would believe the throwing over the Alliance Station Wall would be a violation of rule G8.

[Tetraman]

it seems like the only "legal" way for the human player to pass on the game peices is through the shoot.
"<G23> GAME PIECES through CHUTE – GAME PIECES may only be entered onto the field through the CHUTE (see Rule <G08>)."
"Obtaining GAME PIECES - ROBOTS may obtain GAME PIECES via any of the following
methods: ...
Grasping RINGERS or SPOILERS that have been placed in the CHUTE by the HUMAN PLAYER"

That is the only part of G8 that says anything about human players, so I would believe the throwing over the Alliance Station Wall would be a violation of rule G8.

But you can't say that because <G48> currently says that it is possible to toss them.

There is no answer to this question until FIRST responds to it.

[+()c|D]

But you can't say that because <G48> currently says that it is possible to toss them.

There is no answer to this question until FIRST responds to it.

I see that, but by G8 it says the only ways to score are... and that is not included, so, by G8, you could be peanialized for tossing it over the alliance walls, but I do see your point. Thanks :yikes:

[P.J. Baker]

G8 considers robots obtaining game pieces. It does not mention scoring at all. Although G23 could be worded better, I don't see any contradictions in these rules.

HP may:
Throw rings to the robot over the wall

Throw rings onto the rack or field over the wall

Pass rings to the robot through the slot


I would be surprised to learn that the intent of G23 is anything other than to prevent a robot from feeding rings to the human player so that they can be thrown to other locations on the field, or hoarded if the are the opposing alliance's rings

[Phantomechanics]

G23 appears to address only the chute, saying that the chute is a one-way device (HP to robot) and can not be used to pass from robot to HP. G48 is a global rule which covers all of the ways the tubes may enter. yeah this is right.

[Dan Zollman]

G8 considers robots obtaining game pieces. It does not mention scoring at all. Although G23 could be worded better, I don't see any contradictions in these rules.

HP may:
Throw rings to the robot over the wall



<G08> actually seems to say that the HP can't throw rings directly to the robot over the wall. This may not have been intended, but to follow the rules precisely, you'd have to throw the tube over the wall onto the ground, and then have the robot pick it up from the ground.

Obtaining GAME PIECES - ROBOTS may obtain GAME PIECES via any of the following
methods:

Accepting a KEEPER prior to the start of the match as detailed in Rule <G04>
Picking up RINGERS from the opposing ALLIANCE HOME ZONE that were placed there prior to the start of the match
Grasping RINGERS or SPOILERS that have been placed in the CHUTE by the HUMAN PLAYER
Picking up RINGERS or SPOILERS from the playing field surface
Removing a SPOILER from a HANGING position on the RACK

[trilogism]

The Title of G23 seems to make the Rule clear. It says "GAME PIECES through CHUTE" so this addresses the issue of the tubes being transferred through the chute in only one direction, and does not prohibit throwing tubes over the wall.

I am unsure as to whether robots can catch tubes thrown over the walls however.

[KDawg]

I think that it is OK to have a human player toss ringers on the field, as long as the robot and the human player are not touching the ringer at the same time. The only way that could happen is through the chute.

Correct me if I'm mistaken.

[+()c|D]

I think that it is OK to have a human player toss ringers on the field, as long as the robot and the human player are not touching the ringer at the same time. The only way that could happen is through the chute.

I think that this makes sense. I think it would be okay for the human player to through the ringer over the wall so long as it hits the ground before anything else, like their robot.

[Guy Davidson]

I would be surprised to learn that the intent of G23 is anything other than to prevent a robot from feeding rings to the human player so that they can be thrown to other locations on the field, or hoarded if the are the opposing alliance's rings

My opinion exactly. They're just doing this to eliminate human player hoarding.

[Tri_Lam]

it seems like the only "legal" way for the human player to pass on the game peices is through the shoot.

<G48> Entering GAME PIECES onto the field - Only the HUMAN PLAYERS may enter a RINGER
or SPOILER onto the field, either by attempting to throw it to a ROBOT or onto the RACK... If GAME PIECES are thrown, they must be thrown over the top of the Alliance
Station Wall, and may not be thrown around the side of the Alliance Station Wall.

yet this confirms that you can throw them over the top to you bots

also this can mean that we can try and score our selves hummm who can throw that distance?

[Maximus123]

So pretty much we'll just have to wait for FIRST to make the final call. From the past 2 threads it's pretty much a back and forth on how we depict it, the rules counter and recounter each other. So we can spend hours debating this situation or we could be designing and planning our robot, thats just what I think. :]

[Manoel]

It has just been addressed by update one:


Section 7.3.2.3, Rule <G23> - The sentence “GAME PIECES may only be entered onto
the field through the CHUTE” has been changed to “GAME PIECES may enter onto the
field through the CHUTE.” Rule <G23> is completely consistent with Rule <R48>.