"Smart" Breaker Panel Acceptable for '07?

[robotguru1717]

I just wanted to know if the circuit breaker shown here on IFIRobotics (http://www.ifirobotics.com/circuit-breaker-panel.shtml) is allowed in the 2007 FRC.

Thanks!

[chris31]

I think i read that you cant use that this year. But dont quote me on that.

[Pavan Dave]

I have read through twice through the electonics and have found nothing. Maybe I was skimming too fast but I like the old one from last year MUCH better than the new ones.

-Pavan.

[teh_r4v3]

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it.

<R45> Items specifically permitted on 2007 FRC ROBOTS include:
 Additional HITEC HS-322HD Servos.
 Additional Victor 884 speed controllers and Spike relay modules, as needed.
 One additional 4-slot Maxi-block circuit breaker panel and utilize it on their 2007 ROBOT in
addition to, or in replacement of, the circuit breaker panels provided in the Kit Of Parts.
 One or two additional 2-1/2” CIM motors (part #FR801-001) in addition to those provided in
the Kit Of Parts. This means that up to four, and no more, 2-1/2” CIM motors can be used
on the ROBOT.
 One additional 3” CIM “Minibike” motor (part #FR801-005). This means that up to two, and
no more, 3” CIM “Minibike” motors can be used on the ROBOT.
 Additional solenoid valves, air cylinders, and connecting fittings.
 One or two additional Clippard air storage tanks (Clippard Part Number AVT-32-16),
equivalent to those provided in the kit. This means that up to four, and no more, Clippard air
storage tanks can be used on the ROBOT.
 Pneumatic pressure relief valves identical to those provided in the Kit Of Parts (Parker Part
Number PV609-2).

<R46> Items specifically PROHIBITED from use include:
 Batteries different from, or in addition to, those provided in the Kit Of Parts.
 Circuit breakers different from those provided in the Kit Of Parts. Note: the Snap Action
brand circuit breakers provided have unique “trip” characteristics. No substitute brands are
permitted.
 Fuse panels different from those provided in the Kit Of Parts.
 Electric motors different from, or in addition to, those in the Kit, with the exception of those
specifically permitted by Rule <R45>.
 Any air compressor other than the one provided in the Kit Of Parts.
 Hydraulic fluids or hydraulic components.
 Lasers of any type.
 Speakers, sirens, air horns, or other audio devices that generate sound at a level sufficient
to be a distraction or hindrance affecting the outcome of a match.
 Electric solenoid actuators (note: electric solenoid actuators are NOT the same at
pneumatic solenoid valves – the latter are permitted, the former are not).

I'll be missing the old panel. :(

[Michael Hill]

I was going to make this topic a couple hours ago, but went to dinner...>_> <_<...anyway, ya I'm a little upset by this as well. This and the change in batteries.

[Pavan Dave]

The new one weighs too much for my taste.

Pavan.

[Yoda88]

I really like the smart panels, you can get feedback, and make stuff work better with those, but from what i have been hearing, companies that have been donating components to FIRST have been complaining that teams haven't been using what they were donating. so instead of designing their components to be more team/weight friendly, they make the components that teams are using illegal. I really don't know who decided on that change, but if you read this, please feel free to contact me directly, i have some questions for you.

-Yoda

[John Gutmann]

I really like the smart panels, you can get feedback, and make stuff work better with those, but from what i have been hearing, companies that have been donating components to FIRST have been complaining that teams haven't been using what they were donating. so instead of designing their components to be more team/weight friendly, they make the components that teams are using illegal. I really don't know who decided on that change, but if you read this, please feel free to contact me directly, i have some questions for you.

-Yoda
I don't really understand your post....But from what I do understand your saying that companies who are donation parts are designing them so it is illeagle to use them? It doesn't make any sense.

A clearer post would help

[TennBikeBerk]

I believe Yoda88 is saying that teams who have been donating parts aren't happy with how little their parts are being used; people have been turning to other companies instead. Rather than improving their donated products to be more appealing, FIRST has just changed the rules so that the other parts are not allowed.

Just to be clear, this is what I believe Yoda88 is saying, and is by no means necessarily what I believe myself.

[Cory]

Wish they were letting us use the IFI panels... this other stuff is so kludgy. The IFI panel is so much lighter, more compact, and everything is centralized.

[KTorak]

Maybe we can expect an update in a few weeks allowing us to use it - much like last season. Atleast one could only hope. I took a look at the new ones and i'm not a fan of them. We've used the Smart Panel for the past 2 seasons. Personally, I don't think the way to get more teams to use stuff thats donated is going to be accomplished by making all other parts illegal. I'm reminded of the new batteries right about now...hmm...

[tdlrali]

<sarcasm>
We could always revolt... :D
</sarcasm>

No, I agree with FIRST if they decided against IFI breaker panels because the sponsors complained. FIRST only exists because of sponsors, and it would be horrible for FIRST to lose sponsors.

[Cory]

Maybe we can expect an update in a few weeks allowing us to use it - much like last season. Atleast one could only hope. I took a look at the new ones and i'm not a fan of them. We've used the Smart Panel for the past 2 seasons. Personally, I don't think the way to get more teams to use stuff thats donated is going to be accomplished by making all other parts illegal. I'm reminded of the new batteries right about now...hmm...

IFI's site says out of stock for the entire year.

[Andrew Blair]

IFI's site says out of stock for the entire year.
Yep, no awesome panels this year. Major crapfest, but I guess it's not that big of a deal. Just another curveball. Seems like we're getting alot of those this year...

[John Gutmann]

Those breakers were nice, but just think now FIRST is forcing us to be simpler.

[Mike Hendricks]

Wish they were letting us use the IFI panels... this other stuff is so kludgy. The IFI panel is so much lighter, more compact, and everything is centralized.

Agreed. I'll miss that IFI panel .. made teaching students the electrical system so much easier.

But that new AB terminal block is kind of cool .. I will admit that.

[Yoda88]

what i'm saying is that companies like Rockwell Automation have been complaining that FIRST teams haven't been using the terminal blocks and other components that Rockwell has donated.

[TennBikeBerk]

My feeling is that if somebody wants to donate something, that's terrific, but if it really isn't that good and people would rather use other parts available on the market they should be able to - rather than being force-fed all of the donated parts. I'm bummed.

[Pavan Dave]

I think FIRST wants us to use the parts that the sponsors give to kind of give those companies importance. If no one used those new panels this year than the company would feel as if it was a waste on their part of donating it. I think at the same time I think that the product has to be good. In this case the "klunky" panel is heavy and is less "capable" in my opinion comared the the smartpanel.

FIRST made a BIGGG mistake in my opinion and I hope they retract that rule at least this year and tell the company that supplied them that although the contribution is appreciated, it is not too practical

Pavan.

[Richard Wallace]

I'll venture another explanation: maybe FIRST wants to expose a future generation of engineers to more standard methods of interconnecting and protecting power circuits when the wiring is field accessible. While I agree with those who say the 2005 IFI breaker panel is very convenient and compact*, I wonder if it meets the same safety standards as the components that are required for 2007?

*and, BTW, easier to inspect.

[Dave Flowerday]

Has anyone considered the possibility that this decision came from IFI? Perhaps they were not selling enough of these panels or for some other reason were no longer interested in producing them and told FIRST that they didn't intend to sell them this year. If this was the case, then FIRST may have chosen to disallow them simply because it wouldn't be fair to the new teams who would not be able to purchase this from IFI.

I have no information to suggest that this is what happened or anything, but I'm just pointing out that FIRST's hand could have been forced on this one.

[Pavan Dave]

Has anyone considered the possibility that this decision came from IFI? Perhaps they were not selling enough of these panels or for some other reason were no longer interested in producing them and told FIRST that they didn't intend to sell them this year. If this was the case, then FIRST may have chosen to disallow them simply because it wouldn't be fair to the new teams who would not be able to purchase this from IFI.

I have no information to suggest that this is what happened or anything, but I'm just pointing out that FIRST's hand could have been forced on this one.

That is what I thought at the beginning too and so I e-mailed IFI and am waiting until Monday to get a response.

Pavan.

[whytheheckme]

I, too, am bummed about the Panels. We are a rookie team this year, though I have been involved with FIRST for several now, and I must say, these Panels were VERY convenient, in in my opinion, safer.

I do hope that FIRST allows us to use the Panels.


Jacob Komar

[Mark Pierce]

FIRST electronics rules have always emphasized safety and simplicity of inspection over what some consider ideal. Whatever your opinion, that's the way it is, just like the rules limiting any other aspect of the game.

I don't beleive that the smart panels are available anymore, so it's not fair for teams who have them from previous years to use them when others can't. I think they were donated by Innovation FIRST, custom made for us, like many of their products. IFI continues to donate lots of parts to us some of them much more exotic than the compact, intelligent panel. Given the choice, I'll take the newer stuff from IFI and be happy rather than complain that they can't do the same thing they did two years ago.

The new distribution terminal strip seems like a huge improvement to the heavy blocks we were given in some previous years. The parts are also reliable, standard components that the Rockwell Automation (Allen Bradley is part of Rockwell) can supply in the huge numbers required as the program grows.

For what it's worth, I talked with a representative of RA (one of the most dedicated FIRST volunteers I know) about this issue last spring. I also asked on these forums and other teams about what they would like to see RA donate to the kit of parts. As I understand it, this looks like a win-win: FIRST needed a reliable, safe, and available electrical distribution system, Rockwell wanted to support the program by donating useful items directly to teams.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I have to agree with some of the post here. The IFI Panel was team and robot friendly. I would prefer to use if it is allowed. The distro devices we are supplied this year are standard interconnect items and you will find them in virtually all large scale electrical installations. So we are being provided with real world parts that make education on real world systems practical. I just wish that there was a an adequate substitute that would allow distro safely and fully insulated while providing a lighter and smaller alternative for the big chunk of brass. Please be advised the the Maxi breaker panel is designed to accept wire up to #2. To insure the a #6 is fully in contact with the shell and the locking screw, we will strip the #6 back about 1-1/2" and fold over the strands twice to approximate the right diameter to insert into the Maxi block.
I am afraid that the supplied distro provides several single point failure points for robots. A single point failure is a single component or connection that if it should fail, will cause the failure of the entire system. I am expecting a change in the electrical system design such that the negative wiring to each fuse block is identical to the positive wiring. Watch the team updates.

[BFBrennan]

What exactly does the circuit breaker in the KOP look like? Is it the ATC fuse panel? Sorry for the question, we are are a Rookie team and somewhat lacking in the electronics area.

[Mark Pierce]

What exactly does the circuit breaker in the KOP look like? Is it the ATC fuse panel?The 120 A main breaker is shown in KOP checklist, page 11 of the Blue Tote (Pg 16 in the .pdf file. Directly below that is a picture of the MAXI Style Fuse Block which we will have to use this year for the 40 amp breakers as discussed in this thread. The smaller circuit breakers are shown on page 1 of the E-kit pages (page 18 of the pdf file).

I agree that the Maxi fuse blocks are heavy and I too would like to have something lighter. However, I can find lots of other rules I am more disappointed by and overall I think we can be happy there's not a lot more restrictions.

I also agree with Al that the wiring drawing does not account for 40 A ground distribution. I hope that we're allowed to do these connections without another heavy chunk of metal.

[BFBrennan]

The 120 A main breaker is shown in KOP checklist, page 11 of the Blue Tote (Pg 16 in the .pdf file. Directly below that is a picture of the MAXI Style Fuse Block which we will have to use this year for the 40 amp breakers as discussed in this thread. The smaller circuit breakers are shown on page 1 of the E-kit pages (page 18 of the pdf file).

Thanks.

[Greg Needel]

Regardless of the rules for electrical systems you cannot use the IFI breaker Pannel. Due to the fact that the pannel is listed on IFI's website at discontinued it turns the breaker pannel into a non COT. Since they arne't selling them any more it makes it impossible for every team to use it, thus illegal.

I think the 2 rules that sum it up are <R46> (about different fuse pannels) and <R47>(COTS)

[whytheheckme]

Can we use 2 maxi blocks?

We have 5 CIM motors total (4 small and 1 large) on our robot, but the MAXI block only has 4 40 amp breakers. The Panel allowed for use of 6; does this mean I need a WHOLE OTHER chunk-o-brass to power just one motor?:yikes:

Jacob

[Mike Hendricks]

Can we use 2 maxi blocks?

We have 5 CIM motors total (4 small and 1 large) on our robot, but the MAXI block only has 4 40 amp breakers. The Panel allowed for use of 6; does this mean I need a WHOLE OTHER chunk-o-brass to power just one motor?:yikes:

Jacob

You could run the larger CIM off a 30A breaker from the ATC panel .. the stall draw on the large CIM is 40A lower than the smaller CIM, and peak power is 70w less. Not too sure the risk of tripping the breaker, it'll depend on how hard that motor is being ran.

I recall seeing teams from previous years using smaller (1 and 2 port versions) of the MAXI block. The terminal supply co PDF catalog isn't cooperating with me this morning, so I couldn't see if it still existed.

But you are allowed to run another heavy MAXI block if you want.

[whytheheckme]

You could run the larger CIM off a 30A breaker from the ATC panel .. the stall draw on the large CIM is 40A lower than the smaller CIM, and peak power is 70w less. Not too sure the risk of tripping the breaker, it'll depend on how hard that motor is being ran.

I recall seeing teams from previous years using smaller (1 and 2 port versions) of the MAXI block. The terminal supply co PDF catalog isn't cooperating with me this morning, so I couldn't see if it still existed.

But you are allowed to run another heavy MAXI block if you want.

Cool. 10 minutes ago when I thought that I would need another 4 port MAXI block I could just see my (robot) weight management guy cringe....

I'll look for the 1 or 2 port MAXI... This could be really useful. Our large CIM is driving the whole *elevator* of our robot and needs to be able to lift quite a bit, so I think I'm going to stick with 40 amps.

Thanks for the help,
Jacob

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Can we use 2 maxi blocks?

We have 5 CIM motors total (4 small and 1 large) on our robot, but the MAXI block only has 4 40 amp breakers. The Panel allowed for use of 6; does this mean I need a WHOLE OTHER chunk-o-brass to power just one motor?:yikes:

Jacob


<R45> Items specifically permitted on 2007 FRC ROBOTS include:
One additional 4-slot Maxi-block circuit breaker panel and utilize it on their 2007 ROBOT in addition to, or in replacement of, the circuit breaker panels provided in the Kit Of Parts.

Sorry,
There is no other alternative. Ask this on the Q&A as I suspect they may be lenient in the use of single or dual versions of the Maxi block.