How the heck do you use an XBOX360 controller with the chicklet??

[waialua359]

If the chicklet is supposed to support the XBOX 360 controller and is usb based, how does it work if the controller is not usb?:yikes:

[Greg Marra]

The XBox 360 controller is indeed USB based. The wireless versions talk directly to the XBox, but you can purchase wired versions which have a USB plug (so they can be used in Windows, as well).

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/xbox_360_wincontroller_09.jpg

[eshteyn]

Microsoft puts out a controller thats both xbox 360 usb and windows as well as other versions. Here is a link to help you.



http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/gaming/productdetails.aspx?pid=091

[waialua359]

thanks. I was looking at our xbox and it wasn't a usb connection. when I called bestbuy, they said it wasn't usb for the 360, and I've never seen one since I dont have that system.
Is it a plug and play system like past FIRST controllers, including the chicklet?

[eshteyn]

thanks. I was looking at our xbox and it wasn't a usb connection. when I called bestbuy, they said it wasn't usb for the 360, and I've never seen one since I dont have that system.
Is it a plug and play system like past FIRST controllers, including the chicklet?

I don't know because the controller does require a driver for windows, but technically if it is plug and play with the xbox 360 then you should have no problem just plugging it all into the oi and using it since the chicklet is said to support the xbox 360 controller

[optimusfugii45]

all you have to do is go down to ur elektroniks store and get an adapter for the controller-u kan do the same with ps 2 controllers

[waialua359]

I tried to convince our school that we needed to buy an xbox 360 and games to have our drivers practice using the controllers in driving games,.....hehehe.....technically its justifiable.

[eshteyn]

I tried to convince our school that we needed to buy an xbox 360 and games to have our drivers practice using the controllers in driving games,.....hehehe.....technically its justifiable.

Ive had the same idea, but the school won't agree, they will just get you the controller.

[Mona]

i for one think that being able to use different controllers is an amzing thing to have, I know that every year the same old complaints are put forth about the joy sticks "they are TOOO sensitive"

hmm it would be awsome to use Wii controllers, tehee then you can actualy be your robot. just a thought:D

[eshteyn]

i for one think that being able to use different controllers is an amzing thing to have, I know that every year the same old complaints are put forth about the joy sticks "they are TOOO sensitive"

hmm it would be awsome to use Wii controllers, tehee then you can actualy be your robot. just a thought:D

That would be really cool, but from what i've noticed the wii controller lags a little bit and you really don't want that lag in the control of your robot

[r.pesquera]

We had come up with the idea of using an xbox 360 controller while standing on the demo arena at the kickoff in manchester, nh. I knew we wouldn't be the only ones to come up wih such a great thing. Just don't know if it s possible to get it to work on the bot.

[FIRST Rocks]

Microsoft puts out a controller thats both xbox 360 usb and windows as well as other versions. Here is a link to help you.



http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/gaming/productdetails.aspx?pid=091

You do not need to buy the special Windows/X-box version of the controller. Don't be tricked into paying more! You can just buy the regular X-box wired controller and download the Windows driver from the Microsoft website for free.

thanks. I was looking at our xbox and it wasn't a usb connection. when I called bestbuy, they said it wasn't usb for the 360, and I've never seen one since I dont have that system.
Is it a plug and play system like past FIRST controllers, including the chicklet?

The 360 controller is indeed a standard USB connection. There are two USB ports on the front of the 360 console hidden by a door, and one on the back of the console. You can connect a lot of USB devices to the 360 like MP3 players, flash drives, and external USB hard drives and get music & pictures off of them. I don't know what the person at Best Buy was thinking when they told you it wasn't USB.

Also, the original X-box controllers actually are USB, they just have a unique, non-standard connector.

[darkmastercrono]

Wouldn't the Xbox 360 controller be a bit more difficult to drive with? Its not like it's a racing game that you are using it for.

[eshteyn]

Wouldn't the Xbox 360 controller be a bit more difficult to drive with? Its not like it's a racing game that you are using it for.

Your right, but if your comfortable with the controller enough to a point where you can use it efficiently then my question is WHY NOT?

[darkmastercrono]

I know, it's just that we have a couple of drivers who are much more proficient at the joysticks, which they can use "inituitively." If I were driving, I agree, I probably would use the XBOX controller.

[eshteyn]

I know, it's just that we have a couple of drivers who are much more proficient at the joysticks, which they can use "inituitively." If I were driving, I agree, I probably would use the XBOX controller.

We use 2 joysticks, one controls the left side, one the right, like a bobcat

[DanDon]

We use 2 joysticks, one controls the left side, one the right, like a bobcat

Just to clarify, we use tank steering to control the robot. We are most comfortable with this setup, because we feel it gives finer control than 1-joystick drive. I also find a 2-joystick drive setup easier to troubleshoot and customize based on bias to one side while driving, etc.

[Barry Craig]

If any of you guys (or girls) have an old XBOX controller, you can mod it to work as a USB controller in 5 minutes. Take a old USB cable, your old XBOX controller, strip all the wires on both cords. Then solder red to red, black to black, white to white, and green to green. Yellow will be left over on the XBOX controller, but that's okay, it's not needed to use the controller. After you've done this, wrap it up in shiny electrical tape and BOOM, you've got yourselves a snazzy new XBOX USB controller. Sure it's not the 360 controller, but you don't have to buy an expensive controller. Best Buy probably has 3rd party ones for $10.

[Mike Copioli]

FYI, from our testing and development data we have developed opinions on what controllers were better than others. While testing and verifying functionality, we concluded that if our team was to use a game-pad our last choice would be the x-box/360 controller. Instead, we recommend the logitech dual action gamepad. The layout and overall stability of the analog axes is far superior to that of the x-box. Not to mention, the Logitech is half the price of the x-box controller.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Nawaid Ladak]

The sony Play station 3 is not a supported device... I wonder why.

you can attach the optional USB Charger, which makes it act as a wired controller. So there wouldn't be any problems

[waialua359]

can someone post a pic of the logitech one and do a comparison vs. the xbox360 one. just curious to see which is better before I head out to best buy (1 hour away) to get the 360 ones.
Yes, its that far away even though we live on an island!:)

[Mike Copioli]

The sony Play station 3 is not a supported device... I wonder why.

Because the Chicklet was developed prior to the release of the play-station.

Mike Copioli

[amateurrobotguy]

Anyone missing the obvious here? The XBOX controller is designed to mimic a joystick while maintaining a compact space. Why use a Ford when you could drive a Ferrari?

[ronblanche]

I know they make software drivers that work with Linux that would enable the use of either an X-Box 360 or Wii controller. I believe I saw a couple of examples on the MakeZine website; check the blogs.:D

[Cody Carey]

So the chicklet does not, and cannot be made to support dual analog sticks by modding a controller, right? I skimmed over all the documentation, and didn't find anything about using both analogs... and this rules out tank drive on a gamepad.

[Paul Copioli]

Cody,
Mode 1 on the Chicklet is Y-Y analog control, which is exactly what you are looking for. It will make the two analog sticks act like two independent joysticks ignoring the x axis of each stick. It also gives you a boat load of choices for digital buttons in this mode.

-Paul

[Cody Carey]

Cody,
Mode 1 on the Chicklet is Y-Y analog control, which is exactly what you are looking for. It will make the two analog sticks act like two independent joysticks ignoring the x axis of each stick. It also gives you a boat load of choices for digital buttons in this mode.

-Paul

Sweet! I apologize for missing/not understanding that particular bit the first time through...
Thanks for your help :)

[Warren Boudreau]

FYI, from our testing and development data we have developed opinions on what controllers were better than others. While testing and verifying functionality, we concluded that if our team was to use a game-pad our last choice would be the x-box/360 controller. Instead, we recommend the logitech dual action gamepad. The layout and overall stability of the analog axes is far superior to that of the x-box. Not to mention, the Logitech is half the price of the x-box controller.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

Mike,
This is the first input that I have seen from someone who actually has tried a controller instead of the joysticks. My question has always been, "Are the controllers really any better than the joysticks?" .

[Mike Copioli]

QUOTE=Warren Boudreau;553965] My question has always been, "Are the controllers really any better than the joysticks?" .[/QUOTE]

This is a matter of opinion, but i say absolutely and here are the reasons:

1. When a driver uses joysticks, he/she is forced to stay at the O/I. Any movement that the driver makes with their body, in translated into the controls. Gamepads do not have this issue due to the fact that they move with the driver.

2. Most students are used to this form of control (gamepads). They have grown up playing games that use them.

3. This is, in my opinion, the most important reason. In the past, when a robot or a game piece was obstructing the view of the drive team or they need to reposition themselves to get a better view of the game(like to line up the robot with a target) they had two choices.

a. They could wait until the obstruction moves. Or blindly drive the robot until it is clear or guesstimate the position.

b. The driver could try to reposition his/her head or body to get a better view possibly translating there movements into the joysticks.(see reason 1)

When a team uses a gamepad, the solution to this problem is simple:

a. step two feet left

b. step two feet right

c. step back

d. step forward

To me the benifits are paramount.

Mike Copioli
CTRE

[Cowmankoza]

The PS3 controller could not be used anyways, since it has a built in battery pack, while even tho one would argue that its getting its power thru usb, you are inadvertantly using a second power source, sorry guys, no 6-axis for you

[amateurrobotguy]

Hey, we are not playing GTA 4 here, we are DRIVING A ROBOT! If your game controller was SOOOO hot, then why wouldn't the military use it in a tank? Oh yeah, maybe a 1 millimeter thumb movement is not stable enough to drive $60 million worth of equipment? Or how bout why they don't use it in controlling autonomous planes? Hmmm, looks like they use joysticks too.

"Woops my thumb slipped and I dropped the floatie" will be common words.

I have grown up with game controllers, me and 95% of our team agrees that a joystick is far superior to a game controller. Like I said before, the game controller was designed to emulate a real joystick, so just use the joystick and stop thinking you are playing a video game.

[spsteam1512]

has anyone actually received the chicklet and is it working well with the xbox 360 controller?

[Mike Copioli]

If your game controller was SOOOO hot, then why wouldn't the military use it in a tank?

I'm curious to know where you are getting your information from?


Oh yeah, maybe a 1 millimeter thumb movement is not stable enough to drive $60 million worth of equipment?

1mm of movement? Have you actually used a game pad?

Or how bout why they don't use it in controlling autonomous planes? Hmmm, looks like they use joysticks too.

Again, were are you getting your "Facts" from? It makes sense to use a joystick to fly an autonomous plane. It is the closest thing to the controls in an actual military aircraft. Need I remind you a gamepad has two joysticks with, contrary to your opinion, almost an inch of travel.

I believe you have the right to develope your own opinion. I would suggest it be based on actual experience and facts.

[Thorcat]

A little off-topic, but could you use one of the new Xbox360 controllers for windows (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/gaming/productdetails.aspx?pid=090)? I think this would be the coolest soloution, if only for a demo during a school assembly. Has anybody tried this, or is there some obvious reason that it can't work?

[AdamHeard]

Hey, we are not playing GTA 4 here, we are DRIVING A ROBOT! If your game controller was SOOOO hot, then why wouldn't the military use it in a tank? Oh yeah, maybe a 1 millimeter thumb movement is not stable enough to drive $60 million worth of equipment? Or how bout why they don't use it in controlling autonomous planes? Hmmm, looks like they use joysticks too.

"Woops my thumb slipped and I dropped the floatie" will be common words.

I have grown up with game controllers, me and 95% of our team agrees that a joystick is far superior to a game controller. Like I said before, the game controller was designed to emulate a real joystick, so just use the joystick and stop thinking you are playing a video game.

Well... your problem might be that you are basing your statements on speculation; Mike is basing his on something a little more concrete, like the facts.

I ordered chicklets on day one because my team was planning on hard wiring the xbox controller anyway, and this allowed us to use unmodified controllers which saves a lot of time, and also allows the process of finding a spare at a regional much easier.

All the kids on our team unanimously agreed that an xbox controller is more familiar to them than joysticks; The freedom of movement Mike mentioned would also be very beneficial. I figure if people can be uber snipers in Halo 2 and Call of Duty with it, why can't we drive a robot with it.

Also, if you have nothing positive to say about something Mike put so much hard work into (thank you mike, you allowed our electronics to spend time pursuing higher goals, rather than hours of repetitive yet easy soldering) then I ask you to simply stop posting in this thread.

Another thing that bothered me a little bit. They don't use joysticks to control autonomous planes; They wouldn't be autonomous then.

[Dills]

to answer the question of why use a 360 controller instead of a joystick, our robot has 3 degrees of freedom and a manipulator :D (which would otherwise take 3 joysticks)

[AdamHeard]

We calibrated the controller for our 2006 robot today and it was awesome to drive. It was much easier for my teammates and me to control than joysticks.

[Mike Copioli]

We calibrated the controller for our 2006 robot today and it was awesome to drive. It was much easier for my teammates and me to control than joysticks.

That's good to hear. I'm glad to see someone posting feed back about the Chicklet.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

Your right, but if your comfortable with the controller enough to a point where you can use it efficiently then my question is WHY NOT?

We hooked up our 2006 bot to the 360 controller and we found out that the joysticks were VERY touchy, and im sure you can fix this, but i think a regular joystick is better to maneuver around and should be your #1 choice for the robot to be driven.

[dcbrown]

Hooked up the chicklet to a shark xbox 360 controller - no joy in that it doesn't recognize it. Plugged in a microsoft xbox 360 and things were fine. The controls are touchy and the older 360 controller often didn't return to exactly neutral when released. Possibly a new one will have less issues. Our OI programmer is looking at doing some averaging/filtering to removes some of the glitches but other than that it seem to work ok. There certainly aren't as many steps in the output as there are with the larger joysticks. Didn't capture the data but I'll see if the OI programmer will do that and post the results. Seems to me that there were maybe 14-16 steps from neutral to full on which is at least a factor of 4x less than the full size joystick we used last year. Then again the driver probably used the first few steps for slow movement and then full on so its not like they actually USE all 64-80 steps available.

[Mike Copioli]

Hooked up the chicklet to a shark xbox 360 controller - no joy in that it doesn't recognize it.

That device is not supported. Please see the list of supported devices in the user manual.

The controls are touchy and the older 360 controller often didn't return to exactly neutral when released. Possibly a new one will have less issues.

No it won't. The X-box/360 controller is not the best selection for a gamepad. I suggest the Logitech. See my other posts on this subject.


There certainly aren't as many steps in the output as there are with the larger joysticks. Seems to me that there were maybe 14-16 steps from neutral to full on which is at least a factor of 4x less than the full size joystick we used last year.

This is not the case. The chicklet has the same range as the analog joysticks. It has 127 steps in each direction. What you are probably experiencing is the sensitivity of the analog axes. Since a gamepads mechanical travel is over a shorter distance, it is more sensitive to input.

[Mike Copioli]

We hooked up our 2006 bot to the 360 controller and we found out that the joysticks were VERY touchy, and im sure you can fix this, but i think a regular joystick is better to maneuver around and should be your #1 choice for the robot to be driven.

Again.....I can't say this enough. Try the Logitech Gamepad. The X-box 360 controller should not be your first choice for a gamepad. We supported it because of its global availability.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

The controls are touchy and the older 360 controller often didn't return to exactly neutral when released. Possibly a new one will have less issues.

Same happened when we did it, but you can always put a deadband in there somewhere. And i agree with Mike that it should not be your number 1 option for driving the robot.

[dcbrown]

Not my choice, its student and driver choice. I'm just making the options available for them to choose from. Personally I'd never use the chicklet/controller combo but it isn't my choice and I really don't care what decision they make as long as it works for them.

Everyone is saying Xbox 360 controller - it must be a Microsoft Xbox 360 controller. I tried the game shark one, which works fine on an xbox 360 and is an xbox 360 controller, on the chicklet just to prove it had to be a microsoft one. I expect the inquiry or whatever string back from the device is being used to differentiate between supported/non-supported.

The joystick movement on the controller had a repeated jump of 4 -> 16 -> 24 -> ... with nothing inbetween. This is not the chicklet's problem obviously. However, of the three people who tried, none of us with the controller we had could hit anything between 4/16/24 stops no matter how much we tried or how slow we worked.

So far, the student have xbox 360 controllers for the team to try. No one has or has volunteered yet to bring in a Logitech gamepad device to try out.

[Mike Copioli]

The joystick movement on the controller had a repeated jump of 4 -> 16 -> 24 -> ... with nothing inbetween.

Well the repetitive values could be coincidence, it's probably your controller. Think about this.

The joys on the controller have about 1 inch of travel from the tallest point. the total range is about 254 (+ or - 127) 1"/254 = .004" per data tick.

Value Inches of movement

4 .016"

16 .064"

24 .096"

No human can possibly make movements that precise.

You should try some of the joysticks that are supported. The Logitech attack 3 is very smooth, and provides greater physical resistance against movement.

[Denman625]

we had the same idea about a wii controller... that would be so fun :-)

[Choi9111]

Well... your problem might be that you are basing your statements on speculation; Mike is basing his on something a little more concrete, like the facts.

I ordered chicklets on day one because my team was planning on hard wiring the xbox controller anyway, and this allowed us to use unmodified controllers which saves a lot of time, and also allows the process of finding a spare at a regional much easier.

All the kids on our team unanimously agreed that an xbox controller is more familiar to them than joysticks; The freedom of movement Mike mentioned would also be very beneficial. I figure if people can be uber snipers in Halo 2 and Call of Duty with it, why can't we drive a robot with it.

Also, if you have nothing positive to say about something Mike put so much hard work into (thank you mike, you allowed our electronics to spend time pursuing higher goals, rather than hours of repetitive yet easy soldering) then I ask you to simply stop posting in this thread.

Another thing that bothered me a little bit. They don't use joysticks to control autonomous planes; They wouldn't be autonomous then.

So is there even a way to use the xbox360 controller to control our robot? cuz we in our class have been talking about it for a while...

[Mike Copioli]

So is there even a way to use the xbox360 controller to control our robot? cuz we in our class have been talking about it for a while...



Yes, The adaptor is called the USB Chicklet. It is available from IFI.

[Choi9111]

Yes, The adaptor is called the USB Chicklet. It is available from IFI.

ya duh i know that...i was talking more about programming wise... thanks for making me seem dumb.

[Mike Copioli]

ya duh i know that...i was talking more about programming wise... thanks for making me seem dumb.

Then the answer is still yes. If the inputs are to sensitive, then you should scale them. For example, if you desire more control over the lower 1/3 of the throttle, just write a function that scales the input so the lower 1/3 of the output to the PWM is spread over a larger fraction of the joystick movement.

lets say you want more control over the output range 127-168. Scale the input by dividing the actual joystick value by a constant greater than 1 or multiply the joy value by a constant less than 1. You will need a conditional to evaluate if the joystick is <=168 in this example. If the condition is true you would apply the scaling to the input value.

#define SCALING_FACTOR .8

If (joy <= 168 && > 0)
{
unsinged char pwm;
pwm = scale(joy);
}

unsigned char scale(unsigned char joy_val)
{
new_pwm = joy_val * SCALING_FACTOR;
return new_pwm;
}

Now this does not account for the reverse values but you get the idea. This is just an example and probably wont work.

[Choi9111]

Thanks! i think ill try it out!

[Mike Mahar]

That device is not supported. Please see the list of supported devices in the user manual.

.

I don't know much about game controllers. Does a 3rd party Xbox360 look different from a Microsoft Xbox360 controller? We have a Gamestop Xbox360 controller and the chicklet doesn't seem to recognize it.

[Mike Copioli]

I don't know much about game controllers. Does a 3rd party Xbox360 look different from a Microsoft Xbox360 controller? We have a Gamestop Xbox360 controller and the chicklet doesn't seem to recognize it.

The Chicklet will only recognize a Microsoft brand X-box 360 controller. If you reference the user manual, under supported devices, the device manufacturer and name must match the table of supported devices exactly. After market and older versions of devices may not be supported. Basically if you buy an OTS microsoft X-box 360 controller you should not have any issues.

[Mike Mahar]

The Chicklet will only recognize a Microsoft brand X-box 360 controller. If you reference the user manual, under supported devices, the device manufacturer and name must match the table of supported devices exactly. After market and older versions of devices may not be supported. Basically if you buy an OTS microsoft X-box 360 controller you should not have any issues.

Thanks, Mike, for clarifying that. It might be a good idea to put a note in the User Manual that says the manufacturer has to match exactly. Also, you state the manufacturer for all of the other controllers but you just state Xbox and Xbox360 for the Microsoft controllers.

Since I didn't know anything about game controllers before this, I assumed that Xbox360 meant "or compatible". Oh, well, live and learn. I guess I'll go get the Ligiteck game pad and use that.

[John Gutmann]

Get a halo god to drive your robot. They are pros with the controllers....Have you every actually played halo on level 10 sensitivity on tiny tap moves the sights across the screen.

But then again scaling is probally easier then Halo bootcamp.

[Mike Copioli]

[ Also, you state the manufacturer for all of the other controllers but you just state Xbox and Xbox360 for the Microsoft controllers.


Uhhhhh? hu? I want you to think about that last statement. The key word is MICROSOFT. You do realize that Microsoft is a manufacturer? I dont mean to sound sarcastic. But I find it funny that you mention the manufacturer in a sentence questioning why we don't state the manufacturer.

Anyway I got a good laugh. You are right we do need to emphasize that it has to be the exact manufacturer. We will update this.

[Mike Mahar]

[

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Mahar View Post
Also, you state the manufacturer for all of the other controllers but you just state Xbox and Xbox360 for the Microsoft controllers.

Uhhhhh? hu? I want you to think about that last statement. The key word is MICROSOFT. You do realize that Microsoft is a manufacturer? I dont mean to sound sarcastic. But I find it funny that you mention the manufacturer in a sentence questioning why we don't state the manufacturer.

Anyway I got a good laugh. You are right we do need to emphasize that it has to be the exact manufacturer. We will update this.
__________________



Well, by the time I wrote that sentence, I did know that it had to be the exact manufacturer. Perhaps I should have said: " Also, you state the manufacturer for all of the other controllers but you just state Xbox and Xbox360 for those controllers and assume that everyone would know that they must come from Microsoft." That was the sense of what I was trying to say.

PC controllers seem to come with their own drivers so it is logical to assume that each manufacturer is going to be different in some way. The makers of 3rd party Xbox360 controllers would be motivated to make their controllers behave exactly like the Microsoft versions. Or, at least I assumed that they would. But, being USB devices they would have different vender IDs and product IDs. So, in retrospect, it is not surprising that your device would rely on this, or other, informaiton to configure itself and not support 3rd party controllers.

[Mike Copioli]

Well, by the time I wrote that sentence, I did know that it had to be the exact manufacturer. Perhaps I should have said: " Also, you state the manufacturer for all of the other controllers but you just state Xbox and Xbox360 for those controllers and assume that everyone would know that they must come from Microsoft." That was the sense of what I was trying to say.

PC controllers seem to come with their own drivers so it is logical to assume that each manufacturer is going to be different in some way. The makers of 3rd party Xbox360 controllers would be motivated to make their controllers behave exactly like the Microsoft versions. Or, at least I assumed that they would. But, being USB devices they would have different vender IDs and product IDs. So, in retrospect, it is not surprising that your device would rely on this, or other, informaiton to configure itself and not support 3rd party controllers.

I apologize if I seemed to brash. Actually I checked the user manual and you are correct it does have the manufacturer listed for everything except Microsoft. It's the IFI web sight that states the manufacturer for the X-box and 360. And yes you are also correct in your statement about PIDs. Each company has there own VID and PID. We use the PID for recognition purposes. The Chicklet will try to connect to ANY HID device (red orange red orange) but it will not load the drivers if it does not see the PID. If there is still a need for the Chicklet next year we will be releasing a version that will connect to almost any HID device and the chicklet will use the device descripter to create drivers that are unique to each device.

[Trav-O]

we definitley are storing our chicklet in an altoids box lined with that pink foam stuff...

this cant damage it, will it?


ATTACK 3 = PWNAGE!!!!:p