Keepers in Teleoperated mode

[burkey_turkey]

so the rules make it very obcious that keepers placed after autonomous are 'ignored during the scoring'. my question is, if a keeper is placed on the rack after autonomous, thus making it useless, and a ringer is placed over the keeper during the match, will this count for whichever team has placed the ringer?

the reason i ask this is because of the rule about only 2 tubes on a leg at a time. if a worthless keeper is below a ringer, then that leg is basically a keeper because it cannot be spiled (because it would require a third tube)

there is probably a rule somewhere that talks about something like this or gives a penalty for the placement of keepers after autonomous but i overlooked it. i apreciate any responses because the stratgey could proove effective if legal

[Kristian Calhoun]

You're right in that the keeper placed after autonomous would not count, only the outermost ringer. The last page of section 7 of the manual has a nice little chart on tube placement and how it would be scored, here's an excerpt:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6707/scoring9xt.th.png (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scoring9xt.png)

[Fred Sayre]

there is probably a rule somewhere that talks about something like this or gives a penalty for the placement of keepers after autonomous but i overlooked it. i apreciate any responses because the stratgey could proove effective if legal

Read the rules! It is easy to open them up and do a quick search.

<G14> Late KEEPERS - After the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD ends, ROBOTS may not HANG any
KEEPERS for the remainder of the match. Any KEEPERS that a ROBOT may POSSESS
must be immediately released and dropped to the floor. If necessary, referees may validate
placement of KEEPERS during the pause following the end of the AUTONOMOUS
PERIOD. The referees may remove any KEEPERS that are not HANGING. If a ROBOT
HANGS a KEEPER after the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD, it will result in a disqualification. If
the “late KEEPER” is placed on a SPIDER LEG on which an opposing RINGER is already
HANGING, the “late KEEPER” will be ignored during the calculation of the match score. If
the “late KEEPER” is placed on a SPIDER LEG on which a RINGER from the same alliance
is already HANGING, the two will cancel each other and both will be ignored when
determining if the SPIDER LEG is SCORED. Note: as RINGERS and SPOILERS can be
HANGING only after the end of the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD, any KEEPERS HANGING on
a SPIDER LEG after a RINGER or SPOILER will automatically be determined to be a “late
KEEPER.”

[dtengineering]

Teams that do not drop their keepers immediately after the start of teleoperated mode are penalized, I believe, by disqualification (rule G14)

I am sure you will discover lots of other things, too, if you actually read the manual before posting.

Jason

[gillejr]

Ok I read through rule G14 and it does not say exactly what will happen to a robot who does not drop a keeper once autonomous period is over. It says the keeper must be dropped, but what is the penalty?

Also another question, the rule G04 does not state exactly what will happen penality wise if a robot does not start with a keeper at the begining of the autonomous period. Say if the keeper falls off the robot before the match begins.

[Nicole_N]

Are the keepers just used durring the autonmous mode or durring the whole game?

[s_forbes]

Teams that do not drop their keepers immediately after the start of teleoperated mode are penalized, I believe, by disqualification (rule G14)


My interpretation of the rules (which may be wrong) is that you are only penalized if you actually score the keeper after autonomous. I think it would be silly to disqualify a team because a keeper somehow got stuck on them during autonomous mode.

Dropping it is necessary, though, because if you are holding onto it then you are not allowed to pick up any other tubes, rendering your team useless.

[vic burg]

Are the keepers just used durring the autonmous mode or durring the whole game?

The keepers, the one that say "FIRST" on them, are only used during autonomous. Since there is only one per team. The other red and blue plain ones are used during the whole game. And the spoilers, the black ones, are in the last 15 seconds, after the warning noise.

[DanDon]

The keepers, the one that say "FIRST" on them, are only used during autonomous. Since there is only one per team. The other red and blue plain ones are used during the whole game. And the spoilers, the black ones, are in the last 15 seconds, after the warning noise.

You can theoretically place a spoiler at any point in time. The only thing special about the end game (The last 15 seconds) is that you are not allowed in your opponents home zone.

[akshar]

Also another question, the rule G04 does not state exactly what will happen penality wise if a robot does not start with a keeper at the begining of the autonomous period. Say if the keeper falls off the robot before the match begins.

[QUOTE= FRC Manual 07 <G04>] KEEPER locations - Each ROBOT starts the match in POSSESSION of a KEEPER. The
KEEPER does NOT need to be contained within the ROBOT'S starting volume, however it must be in contact with the ROBOT and be entirely within the HOME ZONE. The head referee will require that KEEPERS that do not meet these criteria be removed from the game. It is the responsibility of the head referee to verify that this rule is satisfied prior to the start of the match.[/]

no penalty. if you dont use a keeper it will be removed, the rule just tells you the correct way to place a keeper if your team decides to use it.
^ my interpretation of the rule

[Spencer E.]

I have a quick question about the keepers in autonomous. Say my robot does not drop the keeper right after autonomous and the operator has to drop the tube manually. Does this result in a penalty? I read through the rules and all it specifies is "Any KEEPERS that a ROBOT may POSSESS must be immediately released and dropped to the floor." which I don't understand. Does it mean immediately after the 15 seconds or immediately as in before doing anything else during the teleoperated mode. Any help would be appreciated.

[Bharat Nain]

According to a Q&A Answer in the Q&A forums - if the first thing you do once the TELEOPERATED period starts(after Autonomous - first 15 seconds of the match) is remove the keeper, then you wont be penalized. If thats not the first thing you do(definition of immediate), then you will be given a penalty.

[Spencer E.]

Do you have a link to that question? It would be nice for future reference, thanks for the quick response. I also have another quick question, say I have to turn the robot a bit to make sure the keeper doesn't get entangled in anything, will that penalize my team?

[T3_1565]

I wonder.... If your auto mode ends up with you with a keeper on a leg, but you have not let go yet. Does it count when the first thing you do is drop the keeper? Do you think it would score?

[Bharat Nain]

Do you have a link to that question? It would be nice for future reference, thanks for the quick response. I also have another quick question, say I have to turn the robot a bit to make sure the keeper doesn't get entangled in anything, will that penalize my team?

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=4880

AND probably not. If I were a ref, and if I saw a robot back up a tad bit and then release I'd consider that immediate. Also, it is illegal to put a keeper on in teleoperated period. Therefore, your move is justified. Also a rule of thumb, use common sense. In many cases, you will be fine.

[Spencer E.]

Thanks for all the help Bharat

[Spencer E.]

I wonder.... If your auto mode ends up with you with a keeper on a leg, but you have not let go yet. Does it count when the first thing you do is drop the keeper? Do you think it would score?

Hate to burst your bubble, but:

"<G12> KEEPER scoring - A SPIDER LEG can only be SCORED with a KEEPER during the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD. At the end of the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD, any KEEPERS that are not HANGING are considered void."

[Bharat Nain]

Please refer to the rule below:

<G14> Late KEEPERS - After the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD ends, ROBOTS may not HANG any
KEEPERS for the remainder of the match. Any KEEPERS that a ROBOT may POSSESS
must be immediately released and dropped to the floor. If necessary, referees may validate
placement of KEEPERS during the pause following the end of the AUTONOMOUS
PERIOD. The referees may remove any KEEPERS that are not HANGING. If a ROBOT
HANGS a KEEPER after the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD, it will result in a disqualification. If
the “late KEEPER” is placed on a SPIDER LEG on which an opposing RINGER is already
HANGING, the “late KEEPER” will be ignored during the calculation of the match score. If
the “late KEEPER” is placed on a SPIDER LEG on which a RINGER from the same alliance
is already HANGING, the two will cancel each other and both will be ignored when
determining if the SPIDER LEG is SCORED. Note: as RINGERS and SPOILERS can be
HANGING only after the end of the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD, any KEEPERS HANGING on
a SPIDER LEG after a RINGER or SPOILER will automatically be determined to be a “late
KEEPER.”

[jgannon]

If thats not the first thing you do(definition of immediate), then you will be given a penalty.
I keep hearing people talk about this supposed penalty for not immediately dropping a keeper. <G14> doesn't say anything about a penalty for not dropping, only a penalty for hanging. The Q&A that you posted doesn't say anything about a penalty, either. Can you please tell us where you're getting this information from?

[Bharat Nain]

You are right, there is no penalty. They told us to get rid of it immediately, but did not tell us what will happen if we do not. Thanks for the correction.

[Rick-906]

its not as though you can do much with it is there?
there is no real need to penalize teams for wandering around with a keeper, theyre already wasting their own time.

unless someone came up with a clever use for unscored keepers

[Japper]

Does the robot even have to leave the home zone or can it drop the keeper there and then position itself to load a ringer so that once automous mode is over, it is next to the ringer load chute and ready to be loaded?

Also, can team tweak their autonomous code in the pits at the regionals before the competition? (before or after robot inspection?)

[akshar]

Does the robot even have to leave the home zone or can it drop the keeper there and then position itself to load a ringer so that once automous mode is over, it is next to the ringer load chute and ready to be loaded?

Also, can team tweak their autonomous code in the pits at the regionals before the competition? (before or after robot inspection?)

the robot can drop the keeper from wherever its postion is, provided it does it immediatly at the start of teleoperated period. your robot can also go wherever in autonomous, as long as it is not ramming a robot, or breaking anyother rules. autonomous can be tweaked in pits.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Also, can team tweak their autonomous code in the pits at the regionals before the competition? (before or after robot inspection?)
Yes. There may also be a practice field provided at your regional for this very purpose.

[kawelch]

There is no penalty for not dropping the keeper. It is itself the penalty. It can not be scored and you can not pick up another ringer while you have it, so you are wasting time.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=5307


According to <G14>, teams are instructed to drop a keeper immediately after autonomous. However, there is no penalty/consequence mentioned if we do not do this. What happens if a team does not drop a keeper immediately?

From GDC:
There is no explicit penalty if a Robot keeps a Keeper in its posession after the start of the Teleoperated Period, unless the Robot Hangs the Keeper. In that case, it would be a violation of <G14> and would result in a disqualification. If the Robot holds on to the Keeper but does not attempt to Hang it, the Robot is just delaying the time until it is able to take posession of a Ringer and continue play.

[lancerbotics]

Do you have to have a keeper on your bot during autonomous mode or can you pass on that? Our robot does not have a scoring arm to place any rings.

[akshar]

Do you have to have a keeper on your bot during autonomous mode or can you pass on that? Our robot does not have a scoring arm to place any rings.

you do not need to have a keeper during autonomous.
it was answered in the FIRST Q and A: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1563&highlight=keeper

[lancerbotics]

Thanks

[Kevin Kolodziej]

There is no explicit penalty if a Robot keeps a Keeper in its posession after the start of the Teleoperated Period, unless the Robot Hangs the Keeper. In that case, it would be a violation of <G14> and would result in a disqualification. If the Robot holds on to the Keeper but does not attempt to Hang it, the Robot is just delaying the time until it is able to take posession of a Ringer and continue play.



This is official from FIRST, so why was the head ref at New Jersey going ON the field after autonomous mode and removing rings from the possession of the robots?? Did I miss something? For an organization that preaches safety like crazy, I don't see how this can be viewed as a necessary action. The two instances I saw this done were during the quarter finals, and in one instance, the ref actually tipped the robot over because its grip was so good. I could not believe my eyes and am very frustrated with what I saw. Does anyone have any insight into this??

[Travis Hoffman]

This is official from FIRST, so why was the head ref at New Jersey going ON the field after autonomous mode and removing rings from the possession of the robots?? Did I miss something? For an organization that preaches safety like crazy, I don't see how this can be viewed as a necessary action. The two instances I saw this done were during the quarter finals, and in one instance, the ref actually tipped the robot over because its grip was so good. I could not believe my eyes and am very frustrated with what I saw. Does anyone have any insight into this??

A robot actually hung the keeper after autonomous but BEFORE teleoperated period during one match at NJ. It seems the field control dudes can delay the start of the teleoperated period. After autonomous, the arm was disabled and drifted down from the middle row, dropping the keeper down to the lower row and scoring it. The refs stopped the match and forced a reset.

That head ref seemed rather agitated at having to go extract keepers from the robot death grips....

[jgannon]

Does anyone have any insight into this??
Yes. The legal justification is <G14>, and the practical justification is to prevent ringers from inadvertantly being scored during the switchover from autonomous to teleoperated, as happened during the elimination rounds in New Jersey today.

[The Lucas]

All auto coders and operators should be careful that their gripper does not open as teleoperated mode starts after autonomous. The tube at NJ was scored at the start of teleoperated mode not in between auto and tele (the bot's program opened thier gripper). There is no good reason that the refs should have to wrestle with a gripped tube. They should only have to remove ones that were released and hang precariously without scoring. The team should be responsible for disposing of their keepers after auton.

FIRST should issue a warning via team update and reiterate it at the driver meeting. It is not the refs responsibility. Any team that doesn’t comply and scores a late keeper (even unintentionally) should be DQed for scoring the late keeper. Any team that can auto program, can program their bot to hold onto the keeper when user mode starts (operator may need to set a switch as well). First week should get a pass because it was unexpected (I never thought about it either).

[Kevin Kolodziej]

Yes. The legal justification is <G14>, and the practical justification is to prevent ringers from inadvertantly being scored during the switchover from autonomous to teleoperated, as happened during the elimination rounds in New Jersey today.

G14 says that refs may remove ringers that are not hanging. Take them off the field...thats fine. But to go in and remove one from posession of a robot?? I disagree. I DO NOT want any ref coming on to the field and disturbing my robot, let alone forcing open a gribber that is not meant to be open when its not supposed to be open. The robot I saw the ref wrestle a ring from was not in scoring position and would have had no problem dropping the keeper as soon as the teleoperated mode started.

The case where the keeper was scored in the dead period is a gray area, but the practical solution, in my eyes, is just to say that that ring is on the rack but doesn't count and there is no penalty. Actually, a more appropriate ruling, I think, would be an update that is similar to last year (balls shot before the buzzer, but in flight when the buzzer sounds, still counted), allowing for keepers to count that were released before the buzzer (lets say I have a ringer above the third spider foot, I release, the buzzer goes off, and then it settles on to the rack). If my robot is touching the keeper before teleoperated mode (I scored it but didn't released, as was the case today, or I let go, but then my manipulator sags and touches it), that keeper is void. All there needs to be is a standard 5 second minimum delay for refs to verify scored, null, or nothing (obviously the longer delay is acceptable as well if they need to go on the field to look........but I still have my issues with that), and the problem is solved.

[mtaman02]

A robot actually hung the keeper after autonomous but BEFORE teleoperated period during one match at NJ. It seems the field control dudes can delay the start of the teleoperated period. After autonomous, the arm was disabled and drifted down from the middle row, dropping the keeper down to the lower row and scoring it. The refs stopped the match and forced a reset.

That head ref seemed rather agitated at having to go extract keepers from the robot death grips....


The scoring table has the ability to keep the tele - operated period from occuring for an unknown amount of time after autonomous period ends. Thats why some periods would run a few seconds quicker then others b/c the head ref can tell the scoring table when to start the next phase of the match. As for the head ref at NJ being agitated - I must agree he seem angered having to go out on the field after autonomous to remove any keepers from being accidentally scored as if someone was forcing him to do go out there and get the keeper out of the robots possession. I mean he was just tossing the keepers all over the place as well as rocking the robot around and forcing open motored and pneumatic grippers. I don't care if he's been head ref'ing for 20 yrs. One should take great care in handling someone else's property to ensure it doesn't get damaged while being handled. Teams should not have to spend more time on fixing there robots all b/c a ref decided to rip the keeper from the robot. Teams have already spent 6 wks in building now they may have to spend hours trying to fix that mistake.

[dbell]

at the BAE GSR, after the autonomous mode the head ref would come out onto the field and take away the tubes that robots were holding. this might happen at other regionals too. you can't score a keeper in tele mode anyway so I don't know why he did that.

[Dan Petrovic]

The head ref from BAE removed any keepers from the grips of robots. If they were on the floor he left them.

In the first match, one team had a keeper in their gripper so tightly that the head ref took out a knife and completely destroyed the thing.

I think he did it as a "What a way to open the day!" kind of thing. It was kind of amusing.

[Wayne Doenges]

Something funny happened at the NJ regional. During autonomous, a robot went out towards the rack and was just getting ready to place the keeper when time ran out. When the teleoperated mode started he dropped the keeper and it fell onto the spider and scored. The refs left it there and continued play but the match was stopped. I don't know if it was because of the illegal keeper or another problem. When they replayed the match the same robot went out and still didn't drop before time ran out. Before the teleoperated mode started a ref came out and had to forcibly remove the keeper frome the robots grasp.

[The Lucas]

Something funny happened at the NJ regional. During autonomous, a robot went out towards the rack and was just getting ready to place the keeper when time ran out. When the teleoperated mode started he dropped the keeper and it fell onto the spider and scored. The refs left it there and continued play but the match was stopped. I don't know if it was because of the illegal keeper or another problem. When they replayed the match the same robot went out and still didn't drop before time ran out. Before the teleoperated mode started a ref came out and had to forcibly remove the keeper frome the robots grasp.

The match was stopped due to the Late Keeper. I'll say here what I said in the other thread. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=589497&postcount=22)

Programmers and operators : Do not let your robot drop the keeper as the first thing it does in teleoperated mode; before an operator even touches the controls.

This late keeper is grounds for disqualification!

Set your program and/or OI switches so that the robot keeps the keeper in its death grip until the operators can properly dispose of it.

[Spencer E.]

Okay. So does this mean that I have to program my autonomous to automatically let go of the tube right after the auton period is up? I don't need to drop it do I? Can I just release the grip and that can be the end of it? One last question if there are any programmers in here, do spikes automatically set themselves to 0 once disabled?

[The Lucas]

Okay. So does this mean that I have to program my autonomous to automatically let go of the tube right after the auton period is up? I don't need to drop it do I? Can I just release the grip and that can be the end of it? One last question if there are any programmers in here, do spikes automatically set themselves to 0 once disabled?

I think you program your bot to hold onto the Keeper (if you didn’t drop it in auton) and let your drivers place it on the floor. In the disabled period between auton and tele all spike outputs are 0 and pwm (victors) are 127. If you have a single solenoid it will return to its default state. You shouldn't worry about what your bot does when disabled (it is out of your control you will not be penalized and the keeper might count if you score it right after being disabled). Just focus on what it does when tele mode begins. Don’t release and score a Late keeper before the drivers can even touch the controls.

[dpraedan]

The head ref from BAE removed any keepers from the grips of robots. If they were on the floor he left them.

In the first match, one team had a keeper in their gripper so tightly that the head ref took out a knife and completely destroyed the thing.

I think he did it as a "What a way to open the day!" kind of thing. It was kind of amusing.

The head ref at the UTC scrimmage did that several times as well. Doesn't seem right to me, as teams should be allowed to drop in the start of tele-op, but it's ultimately their call.

[VanMan]

Well that doesn't really make sense because at VCU one teams arm wasn't working properly ever so they always had the keeper in. I don't think they were penalized.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

Using knifes to slice keepers to remove them?????? What is going on here? There is no penalty for keeping a keeper in your possession after autonomous - just for scoring it. If I want to keep a keeper and use it so I have larger reach for defense, there is nothing that says that is not allowed! I am posting a Q/A question about this because I see absolutely no reason at all for refs to come on to the field to remove keepers from robots.

[Luke]

Something funny happened at the NJ regional. During autonomous, a robot went out towards the rack and was just getting ready to place the keeper when time ran out. When the teleoperated mode started he dropped the keeper and it fell onto the spider and scored. The refs left it there and continued play but the match was stopped. I don't know if it was because of the illegal keeper or another problem. When they replayed the match the same robot went out and still didn't drop before time ran out. Before the teleoperated mode started a ref came out and had to forcibly remove the keeper frome the robots grasp.

When I watched that event happen my first thoughts was that the rules as stated meant the NJ ref should have DQ'ed the team instead restarting the match. Each new match the ref continued to prevent the DQ offense from happening by walking onto the field and wrestling the tube off the robot after autonomous. My thoughts were that this is not what the rules says. But wait am I going defend a rule which I believe is too harsh? What I believe now is, we were seeing the ref was trying not to DQ a team due to a rule which carries an undue and too harsh Penalty and needs updating.

Why should this carry a DQ penalty? This is the goal of the autonomous and if you just missed but accidentally put the keeper on after, why a DQ? Usually a DQ is due safety or equipment damage or unfair advantage; I do not see that here. :confused:

I think FIRST should rethink this harsh penalty. From the actions of the NJ refs, I believe, that they DID NOT wanted to make that DQ call either.

GOOD CALL NJ REFS!!! :D

[Spider-Man]

Here's a post I made about this in another thread (http://http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=590335&postcount=12) about this. Basically, not only do the rules say nothing about removing keepers from robots that can possibly be dropped and not scored, but this issue was addressed very clearly in the Q&A forum.

[Stu Bloom]

When I watched that event happen my first thoughts was that the rules as stated meant the NJ ref should have DQ'ed the team instead restarting the match. Each new match the ref continued to prevent the DQ offense from happening by walking onto the field and wrestling the tube off the robot after autonomous. My thoughts were that this is not what the rules says. But wait am I going defend a rule which I believe is too harsh? What I believe now is, we were seeing the ref was trying not to DQ a team due to a rule which carries an undue and too harsh Penalty and needs updating.

Why should this carry a DQ penalty? This is the goal of the autonomous and if you just missed but accidentally put the keeper on after, why a DQ? Usually a DQ is due safety or equipment damage or unfair advantage; I do not see that here. :confused:

I think FIRST should rethink this harsh penalty. From the actions of the NJ refs, I believe, that they DID NOT wanted to make that DQ call either.

GOOD CALL NJ REFS!!! :DThe NJ match in question was stopped because of a mis-communication between the head ref and the scorekeeper/field controller. The match should have been paused until that keeper was removed from play.

One of the main jobs of the head ref at the end of autonomous is to remove any "precariously perched" keepers to specifically avoid that situation (an inadvertent score at the start of tele-operated period), THEN signal to the field controller to continue the match. You should see this happen regularly at all of the competitions this year. The DQ penalty is in place more for a deliberately placed "late" keeper.

[Stu Bloom]

And I will repeat here what I answered there.

Head referees have been instructed by FIRST to remove any precariously positioned keepers at the end of autonomous period to avoid an inadvertent scoring of a "late keeper". In cases where the keeper is entangled and/or difficult to remove it will be cut and removed. You will see this at all competitions this year.

[Luke]

The NJ match in question was stopped because of a mis-communication between the head ref and the scorekeeper/field controller. The match should have been paused until that keeper was removed from play.

One of the main jobs of the head ref at the end of autonomous is to remove any "precariously perched" keepers to specifically avoid that situation (an inadvertent score at the start of tele-operated period), THEN signal to the field controller to continue the match. You should see this happen regularly at all of the competitions this year. The DQ penalty is in place more for a deliberately placed "late" keeper.

Thanks, that explains what I saw as well.

As an aside, many times actions are not alway communicated clearly or at all to spectator either, I wish they would so we could have the facts too and not be left confused, trying to figure it out.