Banebot transmission no longer COTS?

[flightofone]

Given that the KOP Banebot transmission has/will not been available for purchase for two weeks, that exceeds the limits in the VENDOR criteria for COTS. Does that mean we are now limited to no more than two Banebot transmissions in our robot? Exactly how long does a part need to be "Out of stock" to no longer be COTS?

[MrForbes]

The Robot Rules definition of VENDOR seems to cover this situation....meaning that the Banebot transmission is still COTS.

I would give a quote, except that the .pdf thing gets in the way of my doing so.

[flightofone]

From my reading of the rules it seems atypical delays are okay (meaning longer than 5 days) as long as they do not impact the teams ability to complete the robot. In our case, a delay much longer than the expected restocking of Feb 7th will definitely impact our ability to complete the robot. At what point does the part cease becoming COTS? Feb 14th? Feb 21st?

The VENDOR must be normally able to ship any general (i.e., non-FIRST unique) product within five business days of receiving a valid purchase request.

It is recognized that certain unusual circumstances (such as 1,000 FIRST teams all ordering the same part at once fromthe same VENDOR) may cause atypical delays in shipping due to backorders for even thelargest VENDORS. Such delays due to higher-than-normal order rates are excused.
Note that the intent here is to protect the teams against long delays in availability of parts that will impact their ability to complete their ROBOT. The FIRST Robotics Competition build season is only six weeks long, so the VENDOR must be able to get their product, particularly FIRST unique items,
to a team in a timely manner.

...business should maintain sufficient stock or production capability to fill teams orders within a reasonable period during the build season (less than 1 week).

[Dan Richardson]

This would be considered an abnormal delay such as 1000 teams ordering at the same time I would imagine. It is unfortunate that they were unprepared for the challenge.

I imagine that you should cancel your order and start looking for other options. AndyMark.biz has a wide variety of great parts and deals. They are a slight bit more expensive in some areas but what adds in price picks up in quality of service and product. Or adapt to a product they do have readily available and make a change on your side.

Also if its a more standard part ( like spares/allowable added usage ) of what came in the kit, contact local teams or make a post on these forums to see whether or not people are not using theres and make a trade/purchase them from the team.

We ordered from banebots and got our components right on time, now just to get them on the robot and hope that the same mechanical problems don't occur.

[Justin M.]

We MAY have one for sale, cheaply. One of our transmissions has a stripped screw (and we ordered an replacement)....for about $40 I'll be willing to sell it off, maybe. Never had a motor bolted up to it - you would just have to get off that screw.

[Tristan Lall]

Also, consider the updated version of <R28> (from Update #2) which allows no-longer-available COTS items, as long as they are unmodified and in their original condition:
<R28> COTS ITEMS that are generally available may be used on the ROBOT. COTS ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions or COTS ITEMS that are no longer commercially available may be used under the following conditions: The item must be unmodified, and still in its original condition as delivered from the VENDOR The item must not be a part custom made for the FIRST competition and provided in a previous FRC Kit Of Parts (e.g. 2006 FRC transmissions, custom-made motor couplers, custom sensor strips, IFI CMUcam II modules, etc. are not permitted) The item must satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition.

[AdamHeard]

Also..... no matter wether or not it can be bought... It is a KOP item and is therefore legal. The gray area would be in using more than two; IMO this is still legal.

[Justin M.]

I HOPE that using 4 can still remain legal. The delay is long, but still feasible. I'm also pretty sure that FIRST is working with BaneBots to get these transmissions back out on sale ASAP. Otherwise, we have to hope the AndyMark transmissions have the same bolt patterns....

[lopz056]

sorry if it might seem a little off topic, but all of the other threads talking about transmissions have been closed, i need to know if anyone knows of any problems with the 16:1 banebot transmissions, any information of problems with them would be very much appreciated, 1388

you can email me at fortyniner_fan056@yahoo.com if you do have any information

[Joe Johnson]

sorry if it might seem a little off topic, but all of the other threads talking about transmissions have been closed, i need to know if anyone knows of any problems with the 16:1 banebot transmissions, any information of problems with them would be very much appreciated, 1388

you can email me at fortyniner_fan056@yahoo.com if you do have any information

There is a ton of information and history here: Banebots 56mm Transmission -- DD related (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53007)

That thread was getting way too long and it had a lot of information that was spread out over too many messages, so I close that one and started this one: Banebots 56mm Transmission -- DD RELOADED (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53185).

If you just want to know what the latest is, use the second link.

Joe J.

[Justin M.]

BaneBots is also out of the 256:1 42mm gearbox. We need two of these...dual 64:1 won't hold up. Does anyone know if BaneBots will EVER get these in stock anytime soon?

[Dillon Compton]

My guess is that Banebots has pulled their stock untill they resolve the issue with the carrier plates on all of their transmission models.

-Dillon Compton

[Joe Johnson]

My guess is that Banebots has pulled their stock untill they resolve the issue with the carrier plates on all of their transmission models.

-Dillon Compton

I don't think you realize what 1300 FIRST teams do to a small company's stock plans.

Last year AndyMark had a bunch of high ratio gearboxes -- intending teams to buy them for large arms. Did anyone have an arm on their robot last year? AndyMark was stuck carrying a bunch of stock for a year hoping that arms came back into vogue this year.

I suppose that it is no different with Banebots. They order stock in what they think will sell. Once the game is known, there is a run on some items and other lanquish on the shelf. In the case of Banebots, I happen to know that they get their stock from China and they get them in big orders placed periodically (not in 20's and 30's but 200's and 300's or even 2000's and 3000's). So, unless Banebots is placing an order soon, I doubt that any more 256:1 gearboxes are coming (and don't forget that Chinese New Year is coming to screw up shipments from that part of the world).

FYI.

Joe J.

[Justin M.]

From BaneBots:

We are unable to get more stock of these items in time for this years FIRST season. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Sincere thanks,
BaneBots, LLC

Does this mean the 256:1 transmission is no longer COTS?

[AdamHeard]

From BaneBots:

We are unable to get more stock of these items in time for this years FIRST season. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Sincere thanks,
BaneBots, LLC

Does this mean the 256:1 transmission is no longer COTS?
According to the manual, such delays are excused and they are still legal parts.

[Dave Flowerday]

According to the manual, such delays are excused and they are still legal parts.
Delays are excused: "Such delays due to higher-than-normal order rates are excused." Unavailability is not: "The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. VENDORS must not limit supply or make a product available to just a limited number of FIRST Robotics Competition teams." This is a permanent unavailability, not a delay.

I will not claim to be a materials-utilization-rules expert, but as I read this, the 256:1 gearbox which is no longer available now cannot be considered a COTS item, and wouldn't that mean that it is no longer legal for use by any team?

[Justin M.]

Delays are excused: "Such delays due to higher-than-normal order rates are excused." Unavailability is not: "The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. VENDORS must not limit supply or make a product available to just a limited number of FIRST Robotics Competition teams." This is a permanent unavailability, not a delay.

I will not claim to be a materials-utilization-rules expert, but as I read this, the 256:1 gearbox which is no longer available now cannot be considered a COTS item, and wouldn't that mean that it is no longer legal for use by any team?

They can't possibly be COTS items now. If our team was relying on these motors (and we sort of were), then it would hinder the completion of our robot. My guess is that to be a COTS item, it would need to be availible to any FIRST team during any period of the 6 week build season. It's the end of the 4th week and they are not availible, nor will they be availible in time for the end of the 2007 build season.

[AdamHeard]

Delays are excused: "Such delays due to higher-than-normal order rates are excused." Unavailability is not: "The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. VENDORS must not limit supply or make a product available to just a limited number of FIRST Robotics Competition teams." This is a permanent unavailability, not a delay.

I will not claim to be a materials-utilization-rules expert, but as I read this, the 256:1 gearbox which is no longer available now cannot be considered a COTS item, and wouldn't that mean that it is no longer legal for use by any team?

Can someone Q&A this? My team's Q&A person claims it doesn't work for him.

[Dave Flowerday]

Can someone Q&A this? My team's Q&A person claims it doesn't work for him.
Exactly what question do you want asked? The rules seem quite clear to me.

[Justin M.]

Question:
Are the Banebots 42mm, 256:1 Gearboxes FIRST legal?

[Dave Flowerday]

Question:
Are the Banebots 42mm, 256:1 Gearboxes FIRST legal?I don't know if the people answering the Q&A would implicitly know that these parts are permanently out-of-stock, so it would be prudent to add that to the question if anyone is planning to post it.

A better question would be:
Are the Banebots 42mm, 256:1 Gearboxes, which are no longer available for purchase, FIRST legal?

[Dave Flowerday]

Sorry for the double-post, but I've been researching this a bit more. I found this from Update 2:
COTS ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions or COTS ITEMS that are no longer commercially available may be used under the following conditions:
* The item must be unmodified, and still in its original condition as delivered from the VENDOR
* The item must not be a part custom made for the FIRST competition and provided in a previous FRC Kit Of Parts (e.g. 2006 FRC transmissions, custom-made motor couplers, custom sensor strips, IFI CMUcam II modules, etc. are not permitted)
* The item must satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition
(Emphasis mine).

Unavailable COTS parts may be used if they satisfy ALL of the materials/parts use rules. This is where it gets sticky, because one of the materials/parts use rules is this:
Additional parts must be generally available from suppliers such that any other FIRST team, if it so desires, may also obtain them at the same price.
Certainly, the Banebots transmission now violates this rule. My team, for instance, cannot purchase one of these transmissions if we desire. Therefore my analysis is that they are illegal.

Anyone interpret things differently?

[AdamHeard]

Sorry for the double-post, but I've been researching this a bit more. I found this from Update 2:

(Emphasis mine).

Unavailable COTS parts may be used if they satisfy ALL of the materials/parts use rules. This is where it gets sticky, because one of the materials/parts use rules is this:

Certainly, the Banebots transmission now violates this rule. My team, for instance, cannot purchase one of these transmissions if we desire. Therefore my analysis is that they are illegal.

Anyone interpret things differently?

Well, you can technically build the 256:1 gearbox out of the other ones. So, it is possible to make a 256:1 it out of COTS items even though they don't sell it.

EDIT: you can not make the 256:1 as there are no other 4 stage planetaries. However, given the wording of the rules above and their stance on the KOP banebots, I think they will be allowed.

Also, if that rule were followed, then all unavailable parts would be illegal because they aren't available. I think, because the updated rule says unavailable parts are allowable, they imply by saying "unavailable" that they don't have to be unavailable. There would be no point in an update if they expected it that way.

[ZZII 527]

I never understood the COTS definition to begin with. To me, "COTS ITEMS that are no longer commercially available" is already a contradiction, since the definition states "A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from the VENDOR, available from a non-team source, and available to all teams for purchase."

Here's another question. Suppose I open up a 42mm gearbox and temper the carrier plate. The rules now define this as a "custom part," explicitly not a COTS item. Does this change its legality?

And while I agree with the argument that teams depending on the 256:1 may now be at a disadvantage, what about teams that have already implemented one? If it suddenly becomes illegal, they will be at a significant disadvantage. And the fact that BaneBots is an official FIRST supplier leads me to believe that these teams were justified in assuming that the gearboxes would remain COTS items. (Sort of like ordering wheels from Skyway. If they ran out of a particular type of wheel mid-season because it happened to be perfect for the game this year, I doubt it would be made illegal.)

[AdamHeard]

And while I agree with the argument that teams depending on the 256:1 may now be at a disadvantage, what about teams that have already implemented one? If it suddenly becomes illegal, they will be at a significant disadvantage. And the fact that BaneBots is an official FIRST supplier leads me to believe that these teams were justified in assuming that the gearboxes would remain COTS items. (Sort of like ordering wheels from Skyway. If they ran out of a particular type of wheel mid-season because it happened to be perfect for the game this year, I doubt it would be made illegal.)

Exactly. My team is depending on three of them. We already have our motor mounts machined and they would have to be completely remade to accommodate another type of gearbox. We can't put more sprocket reduction because we already have the minimum input and the maximum output.

If these were suddenly declared illegal, our team would be set back a good deal and probably wouldn't be able to finish in time or ship as it would hold up the rest of assembly.