Least favorite rules? [Archive]

efoote868

02-02-2007, 23:43

waialua359

02-02-2007, 23:48

the 72 x 72" rule!

Jay Trzaskos

02-02-2007, 23:48

I'm thinking this may need to become moderated in the near future, so let's try and keep that from happening and try not to give the CD mods anything else to do during this busy part of the season. When you are about to hit the reply button, let's just try and make our grandmothers proud.

JT
229

Rick-906

03-02-2007, 00:05

Lil' Lavery

03-02-2007, 00:09

The Serpentine Draft

JamesBrown

03-02-2007, 00:15

Well if they got rid of size/weight limits and that whole ship after 6 weeks thing I would be happy.

Honestly one thing I don't like about this year is no herding, and only scoring one game piece at a time.

Jonathan Norris

03-02-2007, 00:17

By far the 'wedge' rule. Now this is what I call a wedge (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/15135) :p

lukevanoort

03-02-2007, 00:20

I also dislike the rule for the power distribution blocks. Put together, it weighs about a pound, and along with the different breaker panels, it weighs around 2-3 lbs :ahh:

the 72 x 72" rule!

These are two of my three least favorite rules. The battery shipping requirements are the last one. That is if you don't count odd/sarcastic Q&A answers as rules, if you do, well.... then there are a few more.

efoote868

03-02-2007, 00:37

we joked around with the no herding rule... we called it the 868 rule (we usually try to do everything at once... i.e. stacking 4 to 5 tetras at once). i think if they didn't have that rule, we'd probably grab 6 or 7... and go at it :rolleyes: but, since its not legal...

akshar

03-02-2007, 00:49

no herding
and the fact that almost every thing results in a DQ of the team, almost makes it hard to play good defense...almost

Stephen Kowski

03-02-2007, 00:56

new battery....i have a lot of batteries i cannot use anymore on the field

also im not too keen on this "signal light", am I the only one who loved that big heavy light? that used to be awesome, and heavy, but mainly awesome

Kevin Sevcik

03-02-2007, 01:25

I have a suggestion. Let's all step away from this thread for a few months, build some robots, go to some competitions, and then come back and use this thread to develop some good comments and feedback for the team forums.... Only after we've seen all the rules in action and see how they work. Instead of guessing about how things in the future would've been better with different rules, or declaring our dislike for a rule because we heard someone say something about some part of it.

GMKlenklen

09-02-2007, 00:20

whatever, dude... I want to use some electic solinoid actuators! lol. pnumatics are just more trouble than it's worth for a small latch. And It doesn't help that IFI fresh ran out of HS-322HD servos!

jgannon

09-02-2007, 00:45

ChrisMcK2186

09-02-2007, 08:05

I'm gonna say the whole rule set of size vs. weight. I would have loved a 150lb robot with a much larger playing size so we could use the original team ideas. The six weeks is also something of a damper:p

Chris

65_Xero_Huskie

09-02-2007, 08:24

Dislike the rules? FIRST has never made a rule that was pointless or that was crazy....Except maybe shipping the control board on ship date.

Jack Jones

09-02-2007, 09:16

If I had to select a least favorite rule it would be the Fixit Window. There was talk last year about a rage against dogmatic rules, but nothing came of that. So, I’m trying hard to become comfortably numb and let others ponder the absurdity of rules.

Albert Camus (1913-1960) French writer

"Integrity has no need of rules."

Winston Churchill (1874-1965) English politician

"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law."

Sessue Hayakawa (1889-1973) Japanese actor

"Do not speak to me of rules. This is war! This is not a game of cricket!"

Katharine Hepburn (1907-2003) U.S. actress

"If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun."

Tyler Durden (1963-) Fictional character

"The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club."

Arnold J. Toynbee (1889-1975) English historian

"Civilizations in decline are consistently characterized by a tendency towards standardization and uniformity."

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900), (Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde) Irish author and playwright

"One should always play fairly when one has the winning cards."

Jeopardy! (1984-) U.S. game show

"Remember to phrase your answer in the form of a question."

Rick

09-02-2007, 12:59

<G35>

Haha, just kidding everyone. And if you dont get the joke you havent been in FIRST long enough.

Jetgrindradio00

09-02-2007, 14:02

I think the Height/weight rule is my least favorite this rule, but hey....it makes things more interesting:D .

Doug G

09-02-2007, 15:29

Jan - Mar is my least favorite time of year to do robotics. Weather is usually rainy (I know I can't complain too much being here in NorCal) and my ability to commit time is limited. Oh, summer time......

I guess time of year is not really a rule, so I'll choose the flag holder rule. I liked the big dome lights from '03 and earlier.

Ian Curtis

09-02-2007, 15:37

<G35>

Haha, just kidding everyone. And if you dont get the joke you havent been in FIRST long enough.

I don't have the rulebook with me, but I'm going to assume that's the one against tipping. And we're all very glad this was instituted.:p

(10 years ago, the Islanders (who are now the Rhodewarriors) built a robot that tipped everyone else, then went and scored mucho points without opposition) And yes. It was legal.

K.Porter

09-02-2007, 17:20

I have no real qualms with the game play rules (FIRST obviously has justification behind all of those rules to put a little more challenge in the game, and make things fair for everyone.)

There are two things that I wouldn't mind doing without though;
First, the DIN rail power distribution block. I admit, I've learned to like the DIN system, but when the power block is the only component that fits the rail and it's taking up a lot more space than needed, well, it's just a little annoying.

Second, the status light seems quite bulky compared to previous years. The light itself is fine, but the solid state relay takes up a ton of space.

GMAdan

09-02-2007, 21:27

I think the rules i mostly dislike is the breakr panel rule and that you have to ship your controls with the robot.

LightWaves1636

09-02-2007, 21:50

I don't like the battery rule and our team defiantly didn't like Team Update #2 with the restriction on the use of the 2006 transmissions. The LED thing, I'm okay with but I wish it wasn't so bulky(or the radios).

Andrew Blair

09-02-2007, 21:53

Ship'n the control board. We always like to put that off until after build- lets us pretty the thing up. It's not really a game deciding factor, so long as it works.

Cody Carey

09-02-2007, 22:10

I'd have to agree about the Operator interface rule... It kind of seems pointless.

Richard Wallace

09-02-2007, 22:33

By far the 'wedge' rule. Now this is what I call a wedge (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/15135) :pJonathan, that thing isn't a mere wedge. It's a cow-catcher (http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/pix/sv/fb/CowCatcher.html). Did you leave a trail of opponents with their wheels spinning in the air that year?:eek:

meatmanek

04-03-2007, 12:37

I would have to agree that I'm disappointed that we have to ship our OI. We didn't get a chance to paint our OI, so it's nowhere close to being as pretty as it could have been. Even a solid coat of blue would have been nice. We would do it at our next regional, but we've got some issues: I've already epoxied in the LEDs, so we can't paint from the inside, and paint on the outside often gets scratched off.

It might have been a good idea just to ship the OI board itself, keep our custom box, and paint that before our first regional.

Chevymann89

14-03-2007, 00:23

I would say any part of the lifting or lifted robot being support by a tube, even if taking it out doesn’t change the 12" off the ground, Eliminates the bonus points for that match. I strongly disagree and dislike that rule. This rule was called A LOT at GLR.:mad:

David Brinza

14-03-2007, 00:53

Dislike the rules? FIRST has never made a rule that was pointless or that was crazy....Except maybe shipping the control board on ship date.How about the flag holder?

AdamHeard

14-03-2007, 01:00

David Brinza

14-03-2007, 01:32

In our final match at LA we had removed our arm due to banebots failure.

We were with a great lift robot, and against a decent ramp robot; It all came down to ramp points.

They deployed in their homezone and I attempted to scatter tubes there and push tubes onto their ramp. By accident, I drove onto their ramp 3 times. Apparently this is a 10 point penalty for this. I can't find this rule, but I dislike it.
It's part of <G35>:
A ROBOT may attach to and/or climb onto a ROBOT on its own ALLIANCE. A ROBOT may not attach to and/or climb onto a ROBOT on an opposing ALLIANCE (doing so will be interpreted as an attempt to damage an opposing robot, and may be penalized as such).
Driving onto the opponents ramp is a 10-pt penalty. I saw what happened - I saw that the robot backed onto and off the ramp 3 times, but in rapid succession. Maybe it could have been a single 10-pt penalty rather than 3 infractions, but the ref dropped the flag, picked it up and repeated twice...

prb

30-03-2007, 21:08

I dislike that we can only use Bimba or SMC cylinders and the 72" rule

ForgottenSalad

30-03-2007, 21:20

I have a strong dislike for <R46> disallowing the use of the 2005 IFI Breaker Panel.

The Lucas

30-03-2007, 21:22

I dislike that we can only use Bimba or SMC cylinders

You actually can only use Bimba or Parker-Hannifin cylinders, not SMC or Norgren. SMC and Norgren sponsor other components but Bimba has the cylinders.

!DOM!

30-03-2007, 21:25

If a bot falls and is over the hieght limits it is a penalty. < this snagged us today. a bot fell and lost us the match

Zyik

30-03-2007, 21:48

The ramps outside the home zone rule. It's lost us a few matches when alliance ramps went outside the zone, even by just an inch.

meatmanek

30-03-2007, 22:40

If a bot falls and is over the hieght limits it is a penalty. < this snagged us today. a bot fell and lost us the match

Press the E-stop button quickly enough and it shouldn't be.

Jeff Pahl

30-03-2007, 22:56

Shipping the batteries would probably be my least favorite. The two batteries caused our crate to be overweight this year. The crate was designed to ship and protect a 120 lb robot, and with a 120 lb robot it comes in just below 400 lbs. With the robot, and 30 lbs of batteries plus controls, it comes in at "Please see the Shepard rep before uncrating". I understand the GDC's line of thinking that it will keep teams from forgetting these two important items (yes, some do) when packing, but I think part of the whole learning process is learning how to make a list of things to pack, and making sure things like the batteries are at the top of that list.

My second least favorite rule is the "no tape" rule. I also understand why this rule is necessary, as there would be some robots that would be completely covered in and held together with duct tape. However, the resonable use of narrow tape to attach wiring to the robot would keep many of them from looking like advertisements for zip-ties, and at least the tape wouldn't have sharp ends poking out to scratch everyone. As an engineer, I believe that it is possible to use tape and it still be "good engineering", but as a robot inspector, I also don't want to have to make that judgement call. I do wish the rule wording in <R35> would not specify "double sided sticky foam" but just "double sided tape" as we use some awesome 3M tape at work that I'd love to be able to do some things with on the robot, but it's not "foam", as it's only a couple of mils thick. One of the things we use it for at work is to hold parts down in the CNC mills. It takes heat or a press to get it to release. Every year it seems that we end up attaching something to the robot using sticky back velcro instead of proper double sided tape, and it just doesn't hold as well. That's not good engineering practice, but the rules force us to do it that way.

TimCraig

30-03-2007, 23:42

My least favorite rule is all the detail FIRST goes to defining how number should go on the robots and then don't bother to enforce it. There are always a slew of robots with small numbers, numbers not on all four sides, poor contrast.... It's annoying when teams go to the trouble to do something so simple right and others get to skate.

Jared Russell

01-04-2007, 11:36

The 72" penalty for unintentionally tipped robots, BY FAR!

Penalties exist for two reasons.

1. To ensure that the arena is safe.
2. To ensure that the arena is fair.

This penalty has nothing to do with safety, and it further penalizes a team that's been disabled!

Bongle

01-04-2007, 11:53

My most disliked rule is probably the no-handling-of-multiple-tubes rule. Why remove a potential challenge? If people want to aim for the sky, let them.

tcj103

01-04-2007, 12:01

The kinds of rules I dislike most are the ones where due to some random act, you are penalized. This year, it happens when a human player tosses a ringer, and it snags on the robot, most of the time on your alliance flag. Once that 'bot "controls" another ringer, it's like a 10 point penalty for controlling two ringers. Very annoying.

Also, the tape rule, which I saw in an earlier response. Maybe not the rule itself, so much as the blind and somewhat arbitrary enforcement. I understand not using tape to hold your gripper together, but there how about the intended use of some kind of tape being allowed? Example this year was skateboard grip-tape, which can be used for traction on a ramp. A team was told this was not legal, unless the tape was glued on, after removing the adhesive.

After writing this, the tape rule, for the above reason, is my most dis-liked rule. A rule that states the intended use of a tape, if it's a specialty item, should be allowed. ENGINEERS DESIGN TAPE AND ADHESIVES. FIRST IS NOT RECOGNIZING THE ENGINEERS WHO DEVELOPE AND ANALYZE THESE PRODUCTS! They are basically saying that any tape product (other than electrical tape for insulation) is "beneath" the standards of FIRST.

I'm going to contact 3M about this...

Richard Wallace

01-04-2007, 13:07

I'm going to contact 3M about this...The guy to contact there is George Buckley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Buckley). He is their CEO. Many years ago, when he was with Emerson, George met Dean Kamen and that meeting got me started with FIRST. George is an engineer (a Ph.D., in fact) and he knows what FIRST is about.

Josh Fox

01-04-2007, 13:07

at Detroit, we scored a tube on the low level of the rack. while reaching for a tube directly beneath that, the tube we just scored got knocked off. because of this, we scored the tube we just picked up there and scored the other next to it to get a row of five. the tube wasn't counted, so we only got 3 and 1 single and lost the match

Rich Ross

01-04-2007, 13:13

A few things.
1. Tape is prohibited because FIRST doesn't want to backslide. Letting us use tape for something besides insulation will lead to the eventual construction of robots held together by little more than duct tape and zip ties as opposed to nuts and bolts. If you want to use grippy material, find something that is pretty much the same, but is not described as tape. We used "safety tread" and passed inspection, and it was virtually the same as grip tape except in name.

2. If your robot falls over, hit the e-stop. Doesn't that solve the problem?

3. Multiple tube containment would be ridiculous. The reason FIRST eliminated this is for many reasons, but here are what i think are the primary ones.
A) When people can store something like 10 tubes, it broadens the gap between rookies and veterans.
B) The game isn't about making a storage device, its about either scoring, playing D, and/or ramping/lifting.
C)when people store tubes, its BORING for a long time. In 2005, watching teams (like 868, 469, 279, 71, and countless others) sit there, driving in and out of the loading zone so they could fill up with a ton of tetras. This is not fun for spectators. It does result in a little more excitement at the end (arguably) but it lowers the total energy in the arena.

My least favorite rule is regarding timeouts. From the end of a match, you have 4 minutes (at least) until your next match, but only 2 minutes to call a timeout. WE ran into a problem where 302 would have liked to call a timeout, but the referees would not let us call it. We complied, and i think the refs gave us a little bit longer to fix it, but 703, who also did not call a timeout, took about 8-10 minutes (their drive was broken to some extent and needed to be fixed). In the finals, You need to let teams fix their robots. watching a team lose because they couldn't replace a chain was silly, and the rule should have been enforced (even if that meant that 302 and 703 couldn't play).

Bongle

01-04-2007, 15:04

3. Multiple tube containment would be ridiculous. The reason FIRST eliminated this is for many reasons, but here are what i think are the primary ones.

I think the main reason would be that given how mangled poof balls got last year, internal storage of something inflateable would require a few warehouses worth of ringers for every regional.

As for tape, just change the rule so that it is "tape is allowed so long as a single strip of tape only contacts one object". That would prevent teams from using it for any bundling/construction, but would allow many legitemate uses such as labelling, grip, etc. We used masking tape to label all our PWM cables at GTR, and the inspector told us to take them off simply because it was tape.

Darkswordsmith

01-04-2007, 15:16

1) the power distribution block rule. It's heavy and the wires refuse to stay in without outside help (i.e. epoxy)

2) the "ramp cannot rest on game-pieces rule". In Davis Quarterfinals, our ramp deployed and a stray tube got under it. Even though two robots successfully parked on top of us, we didnt get the 60 points b/c of that rule.

The Lucas

01-04-2007, 16:21

I dislike that we can only use Bimba or SMC cylinders and the 72" rule

You actually can only use Bimba or Parker-Hannifin cylinders, not SMC or Norgren. SMC and Norgren sponsor other components but Bimba has the cylinders.

I'm wrong. Canadian teams like 1325 have an exemption to use SMC cylinders (explained here (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=6671))

efoote868

01-04-2007, 17:27

We used masking tape to label all our PWM cables at GTR, and the inspector told us to take them off simply because it was tape.

Thats funny... we did that too and had no troubles with the inspectors (although while they were inspecting it, we were replacing all the connections with better ones)

We were also told by the inspectors that any electrical contacts that were exposed (such as on the victors) had to be covered somehow, and he recommended electrical tape (which is legit).

I have to say that (after the competition) I wish the refs would make the same calls during the qualifying matches as they would in the elimination. Theres no reason to become stricter... in fact, it only ruins the play. If they were to be strict always, then it would be easy to learn how to avoid those situations.

Oh, and my least favorite rule was the 10 pt penalty for the human player stepping on the line....

Liz Smith

01-04-2007, 17:32

As for tape, just change the rule so that it is "tape is allowed so long as a single strip of tape only contacts one object". That would prevent teams from using it for any bundling/construction, but would allow many legitemate uses such as labelling, grip, etc. We used masking tape to label all our PWM cables at GTR, and the inspector told us to take them off simply because it was tape.

<R35> "Adhesive backed tape and lables may be used for labeling purposes on wires, cables, pneumatic lines, etc."

It looks like the inspectors may have made a mistake.

Bongle

01-04-2007, 18:30

<R35> "Adhesive backed tape and lables may be used for labeling purposes on wires, cables, pneumatic lines, etc."

It looks like the inspectors may have made a mistake.

Or I misinterpreted what he said, I guess. I just remember him saying "...and get rid of all this tape", although he might have said something similar that meant "mess", because our wiring was a mess at that point. I had to go home, so I wasn't involved in implementing the inspector's requirements to find out what he really said.

Rapt0r9

08-06-2007, 22:20

Probably the rockwell block. That caused us about 45 minutes of headaches trying to find the pieces to it the block from other teams and mount it all on din rail. The worst thing is that the block is poorly engineered, the screws to lock the wires in place are very small so applying torque is difficult. This caused our robot to fall dead on the field one entire round.

Alan Anderson

09-06-2007, 13:29

The worst thing is that the block is poorly engineered, the screws to lock the wires in place are very small so applying torque is difficult.

We had no such trouble. If you're having difficulty keeping the wires captured, you might not be inserting them properly. Is there another local team you can go "spy" on and see how they did it?

popo308

09-06-2007, 13:43

Ok, so I didn't find a thread with this in it,
What are your least favorite rules for 2007?

I'll start with mine:
I dislike the rule for the backup battery charger (quite frankly from what I've read, IFI's design doesn't work, and they even put a disclaimer on it)

I also dislike the rule for the power distribution blocks. Put together, it weighs about a pound, and along with the different breaker panels, it weighs around 2-3 lbs :ahh:

Let me know what you think!
(oh, and it doesn't have to be just with the robot, can be any area!)

I would have to agree with the power distribution block all it is is more weight and it s pointless. all it does is power that huge light the is way excessive. I liked it when we just had the straight wiring into the circuit board and had the small light weight flashing lights they were so much nicer that the huge yellow light that ridiculous. Also the new Radio control is ridiculously huge, and the aren't nearly as reliable. Are radio was having signal problems and then half the time it would randomly cut out when we were testing it in the shop. Let me know what you think about some of the new rules.

Just be glad they took out the rule about no machines in the pits. {e.g. saws, grinders, etc} That was just retarted.

vivek16

11-06-2007, 11:03

the no duct tape rule:(

xboxmaniac91

12-06-2007, 22:55

I dislike all the rules that FIRST decides to change. I also dislike the rules that are very vague. Finally, I dislike all the rules that FIRST adds new meanings to. I also think it'd be a great idea if the referees underwent better training or so that they have some experience with the rules before the competition. My team goes to Portland which is in the first week, and every year, the referees are still figuring things out during the competition. Also, when a robot runs into you or a teammate, and gets tipped over, does anybody think that that should actually be called as intentional tipping. None of what I just said is meant to slam FIRST.

JesseK

13-06-2007, 13:20

Hmm, Top 3 in order:

3. Tubes that "support" ramps disqualify all end-game points. Not sure how many people are familiar with how our robot ramped this year, but one of our support legs came down exactly in the middle of a tube. The drivers adjusted the bot so that the leg was perfectly in the middle of the tube and not touching it. Upon inspection for end-game points, a ref freely moved the tube around, but another ref (after this) said he witnessed a small vertical deflection in the tube -- but the tube ended up where the first ref put it, causing the deflection.

Perhaps it was purely situational, but it's pretty obvious they had to get technical to justify the rule when in all actuality every team that successfully ramped/lifted never had to rely on a field element anyways. The mechanics of matches would have been nearly exactly the same all season long without this rule, yet this one rule affected so many outcomes it's utterly ridiculous, IMO.

2. It is legal to ram an opposing team's ramps as they deploy in their home zone so long as you do not climb them and contact is made via your bumpers. That is correct, this happened to several teams and was brought up in the driver's meeting in Atlanta only to be stated that it is very legal. "Intentional contact outside the bumper zone" should apply to both robots.

1. And my most hated rule: You incurred penalties if you were disabled in the opposing home zone after the last 15 seconds even if the disabling was determined -->>by the IFI representative at the conclusion of the match in question<<-- to be the fault of the field and not the robot or human controllers. Look up the QuarterFinals for Vegas with teams 233, 1885, and 004 for an example. If you attended Vegas, you actually had a chance to witness the IFI guy reach under the Red control station and adjust something right after the SemiFinals.

---

Personally I like the "no duct tape" rule and the fact that FIRST is attempting to use a safer (but heavier) means to wire the robot. 72"x72" and weight/size rules included, these are all in place to take you through the real-life constraints Professional Engineers have to deal with. Don't hate these rules; they (or some variant of them) are never going away.

Billfred

13-06-2007, 14:28

For 2007, I had a few, which I present in countdown form:

5) The bicycle flags. It seems so simple, yet probably half of my stress this season (both as an inspector and a competitor) came from them. If it wasn't the fact that teams didn't put one on, it was the way FIRST made the mounting rules this year. Robots getting ringered wasn't pleasant either, but that seems largely to be an issue relating to this year.

4) The 72" Envelope Rule. It's survivable, but irritating. If folks believe they can build a superior robot with a bigger arm, let them!

3) Tape versus non-tape. I'm all for banning tape to hold a whole robot together, but I fail to see the benefit of forcing teams to look around for a box labeled "Safety Tread" instead of "Grip Tape". If FIRST is trying to stop teams from duct-taping their whole robot together (and rightfully so), then just ban the use of tape to join components.

2) Time-out rules. To this day, I have yet to see a clear, audience-friendly way to convey who can or has called a time-out in eliminations. A timer at the scoring table would be perfect for this; even better would be to put the time-out clock on the field clocks. (I believe that the NASA field does this already; it's doable since no matches happen during a time-out).

1) Update 16's restriction on tools. It's been beaten to death, and was revised in time for the following week's events, but boy was that not my idea of a good time.