A moral question... [Archive]

Cody Carey

20-02-2007, 15:57

So It's the final match of the regional you are attending, and your team going to nationals depends on winning this match. One of your alliance partners (team A) is already headed to Nationals, and the other team on your alliance (B) needs this win to go just like you do.

The last 30 seconds come around, but the score is 2 points in the opposing alliance's favor. The opposing alliance's ramp bot suffers a pneumatic failure, and can't lift their bots at all. 20 second left. You're jumping for joy, and you start screaming at your alliance partners to head back and get on your lift... Team B loads up fine, but team A refuses to come back. At 10 seconds team A starts to come back, and get halfway on your lift... when for whatever reason, they get stuck. Their robot is located such that if you engage the lift; it will probably catapult their bot into the air, causing them to land on their arm/manipulator and ruining it beyond what can be fixed during a fix-it window. If you don't raise the lift... you lose the regional, and both you and team B can't go to Nationals.

One second left. What do you do?

Dantvman27

20-02-2007, 16:02

tough call, but i'd probally deploy it in the heat of the moment, and then try to help the team fix it at all costs

Brandon Holley

20-02-2007, 16:07

NOT an easy decision...but if I were the coach for team A I would tell the lifting team to go without much thought.

Robots can be fixed, glory is forever

Xenozero

20-02-2007, 16:07

wow, what a situation, im pretty shure that alliance b would have yelled at you to delpoy the ramp and in all fairness, it was a two to one vote. plus, fixing it in the end would be fun! 3 teams working on a robot is much better then one.

John Gutmann

20-02-2007, 16:23

deploy it! We don't build robots for them to look pretty. I am pretty sure that the other team would like to get a gold too. Granted that's not what all this is about, but still, they have the whole practice day of the nationals.

-John

Beth Sweet

20-02-2007, 16:36

Well, let me put it to you this way. We are going to Atlanta for the first time ever and I know for a fact that we would go for the win. As Paul, one of our "lifelong" mentors on 1504 has said in the past, we go out to win every match. You take the chance and worry about the consequences later. Team A probably wants to win the regional too!

FourPenguins

20-02-2007, 16:50

A fall from a ramp deploying probably wouldn't total a robot (not one that could make it to finals anyway,) but if the situation were to arise, I would say deploy. If you don't deploy, two teams lose out. If you do, odds are you can fix the robot, at least to a point that it can compete in Atlanta. Even if it doesn't regain full capabilities, championships is a great experience regardless of your performance.

Nuttyman54

20-02-2007, 17:02

If it was my robot that was getting broken, I'd say go for the win. There's always a way to fix a robot (not necessarily fully, but it can be fixed).

Bharat Nain

20-02-2007, 17:04

Lift it. Fix the bot later. It's also fun.

Dantvman27

20-02-2007, 17:08

i doubt you would have time, or the right emotional state to make the call

Greg Needel

20-02-2007, 17:16

lift, no question in my mind. the team will have some time at the regional before they go into the crate and all day thursday at the championships to fix/ build another arm. There are multiple examples of teams building robots in 1 day due to shipping mishap so I am sure that with the support of all the teams at the championship they will have no problems fixing the robot.

Cody Carey

20-02-2007, 17:28

I think I gave to much background in the scenario... If you are in the heat of the moment... you probably will only be thinking "Crap, they aren't on... I hope the lift still works" as you flip the switch. Or at least, that is what I would do.`1

My original situation was supposed to be that you couldn't fix the robot in the amount of time given at all... not even a little bit. But now that I think about, with three teams working together, you could probably build a brand new robot in a short amount of time. I guess thats just part of FIRST :)

Stuart

20-02-2007, 17:57

ok here is how it works on my team. Im a nice guy. Im smart, good looking, a sharp dresser, kind, and most of all modest. but when Im out on the field as a coach most of those go away(I still like to think Im nice). I will tell my drive team to do what it takes to pull off a win(with in GP), or atleast a good finish. The rest of the team knows that at the end of any match they may have to rebuild a robot.

so as far as this is concerned I would not hesitate to tell my driver to lift the ramp, while at the same time tell the coach of the other team that were going to win this and by the time you get the robot back to the pit there will be at least 10 pairs of hands to fix anything thats broke, we will even help you fix it at nationals if it comes to that(btw there is nothing that you cant fix in a fix it window with enough PVC and a heat gun).

edit. P.S. this may seem a little more cutthroat than I am. the line I draw on GP is would I think it was right if a robot did that to my robot so no pinning or destructive defensive play.

Cuog

20-02-2007, 18:34

With that scenario, I would not be able to consider whether or not the robot would likely get damaged. Being damaged is one of the risks of the lift sadly, by trying to get up the design the other team took that risk on willingly, so I would lift the ramp and hope for the best, and of course with anything in FIRST a finish like that would lead to too many people willing to help fix it.

Steve Compton

20-02-2007, 18:37

If you're Team 1394, you can lift the first robot and leave the second one alone because you've got modular, independent and free riding lifts

Justin M.

20-02-2007, 18:57

FIRST is a fierce competition, if it means winning the match, I wouldn't hold back, and neither should the coach of the robot in jeopardy.

Like what was said before, robots can always be fixed.

chris31

20-02-2007, 19:19

I would probably deploy the ramp. Everyone on your alliance would want to win the regional no matter what. With 3 teams, I'm sure you could fix whatever broke.

CraigHickman

20-02-2007, 19:25

I wouldn't hesitate to smash another robot that is on my own alliance, if it means taking us all to Champs.

savage301

20-02-2007, 19:35

I would deploy it, especially since being on the field in the heat of the moment you probably wouldn't be able to tell for sure what was going to happen. If it did catapult them I would do everything I could to help them fix it, not only before they shipped it to Nat's, but at Nat's. Still I hope no one's lifter is capable of catapulting a robot. :D

galewind

20-02-2007, 19:38

Lift it, it will make a great chief delphi video. ;)

Seriously, lift it, and see if you can work together to fix it. Any team can plot out tasks needed to be done in a reasonable pair of fix-it windows to appropriately make the spare parts. Then there's the time at the competition that can be spent with attaching/etc. It would make a great headline if the alliance teams helped re-assemble the bot at the Championship event

thefro526

20-02-2007, 19:38

I would have to go and raise the robots. A regional win would do so much for the alliance members. My hope would be that the team with the damaged robot would forgive us.

Priyadarshy

20-02-2007, 20:58

you play to win the game...:p

Arefin Bari

20-02-2007, 21:35

Very good question Cody. Here is my opinion...

If I was to make a decision, I would lift our robot. Right after the match, I would drop everything and go to the team with the broken robot and help them fix it.

Molten

20-02-2007, 21:41

I would freeze up. :o That is just one of the many reasons I am not fit to be the driver.

DonRotolo

20-02-2007, 21:48

Lift, for all the reasons stated.
A's robot can be 100% rebuilt if necessary by 3 teams (plus help) in 10 hours or less.

Dan Petrovic

20-02-2007, 21:48

Well... I can't imagine a robot being catapulted in such a way that completely wrecks the robot to a FUBAR state, but, just to stick with the question...

I'd go for the lift. Miracles can happen in fix it windows. If all three of you are going to Nationals, maybe all 3 of the teams could work on a separate part of the arm and get it all finished in time for Nationals. Then they could work together to put it all back together.

We changed our robot from a shooter to a herder in 2 hours last year in Atlanta, what's saying they can't fix their robot?

Dominicano0519

20-02-2007, 21:58

you said that you were down by two points and that one team already made it onto the ramp that 15 at-least.

but anyway i wouldn't hesitate i mean the match is on the line

besides if their bot is totaled it's not like they are actually going to do anything else with it.

the robot is built to compete. not to be babied

Molten

20-02-2007, 22:02

Tetraman

20-02-2007, 22:30

Here is my answer, and it gets kinda in depth even more than you could realize in one second, but yea.

I would let the other aliance win. And Here is why:

First for personal reasons that are very biased: I don't like Nationals; too competitive for my taste. Regionals are more about fun IMO and I wouldn't be in any way disappointed. We would get Finalists, thats still pretty great.

Second, it would be much better to have 4 robotics teams with capeable robots go to Nationals than it is to have 2 capeable robots go to nationals. If you want FIRST to grow, the more teams with better robots the better.

Third, What if fate happens and you can't attend the nationals? What if your team can't get there?

Fourth, I know it's the right thing to say, but it is the right thing to do: It is very selfish to lift the robot and have it break so you can can profit. The addition of the other team you win with is just fodder to make the case to lift alright, but selfish it is.

I will say though, if I was actually in the heat of competition and driving, I would probably lift the robot without thinking.

EDIT: And to all those who say the robot could get fixed, are missing the entire point and reason of the moral question.