Update #16

[Ben Piecuch]

Geez, I'm never the 1st one to notice this.

http://www2.usfirst.org/2007comp/Updates/2007%20Team%20Update%2016.pdf

There's not much too it, in terms of the number of sentences. But, I'll leave you to determine how this update inpacts your team.

BEN

[Lil' Lavery]

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

[Brandon Holley]

w00t to changing the algorithm

[Brandon Holley]

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

no machine shop for buzz either :(

[chris31]

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

It also says no mobile machine shops. This is shocking as the machine shop at VCU took hours to cut a piece of lexan into a rectangle for us and it was horribly not straight. I think mobile shops like what the Circuit Runners had are nice even though I didnt get to see it.

[Mr.G]

Guess 90% of us own machine shops. I don't understand the why we can't have a drill press or bands saw. In past years I had heart ache with the grinding wheel part.

[Richard Wallace]

Non-FIRST Machine Shops
FIRST does not allow non-FIRST approved mobile machine shops at any FRC regional event sites, either inside or outside. This also includes grinding wheels, bandsaws and/or drill presses in the Pit. The local Regional Planning Committees have worked hard to provide machine shop facilities at every FRC regional event to meet your various needs.This is a change from previous years. For several years now there has been a rule (<R21> this year) against "private" on-site non-FIRST machine shops or large power tools; but FIRST has allowed teams to use such resources if they make them available to all teams. This year such things are not being allowed at all -- I think the reason has to do with FIRST's liability coverage. Translated: FIRST is vulnerable to opportunistic lawyers if they allow us to use potentially dangerous tools at their events.

I'm not a big fan of this change, but if FIRST says they need to make it then I am not going to challenge them. The shop facilities provided at every FRC event I have attended have been excellent.

At St. Louis last Thursday I had the honor of telling Paul Copioli that the Thunderchickens' band saw, which they have allowed other teams to use at FRC events for many years, would have to be shut down. Needless to say Paul was not happy with the decision, either; but he's a gracious professional and he complied with FIRST's direction.

[ham90mack]

So that's why we seemed to go against that one robot in every match...

[Cuog]

Well I can understand why FIRST banned drill presses and bandsaws in the pits, as they are 2 very dangerous machines and in the pits there isn't really enough space available to operate them safely. I am also glad to hear that FIRST is working on the algorithm for the scheduling.

[Jim E]

The only obvious answer in for insurance purposes. SOME Americans live for lawsuits. FIRST is covering their bases since they bear ultimate responsibility as promoter. They would be the FIRST to be sued, along with the venue where it happened, along with the Team that loaned the tool, along with the Fast Food restuarant that served up the too hot coffee that spilled on the machinist who lost control of the grinder, that took off the finger, that hit some one else in the eye, that caused that person to bump the person operating the bandsaw:, which sliced into the arm......You get the point?:ahh:

[DRH2o]

Team 1598 had a bandsaw in the pits at VCU anc cut a lot of parts for a lot of teams. John Henderson spent hours cutting for others. The safety inspectors were there while we were using it and said nothing to us. I feel bad that we were breaking a rule that I was not aware of. We will not use it again.:(

[sanddrag]

I would argue circular saws and sawz-alls are more dangerous. And shoot, a hand drill is often more dangerous.

But, I do understand the need to do this. I guess it all just goes back to the fact that you need to finish your robot before it goes in the crate.

[Derek Bessette]

You might convince me of not being able to bring a bandsaw, although I believe that a bandsaw it safer than the alternatives teams will end up using.

But no drill press?

[IndySam]

We were not allowed to use our bandsaw at Purdue last year.

[Ben Piecuch]

So, where is FIRST going to draw the line?

What makes a band saw or drill press more dangerous than a 20,000rpm Dremel tool, a Sawz-all, or even a hand drill? (Ever try using a hole saw with a hand drill?) What about soldering guns, or those deadly 12V 18amp-hr batteries? A lot of teams rely on being able to build/fix/modify their robot on-site with tools they bring, because they ran out of time during the build period. Had we known that "Machine Shops" were not allowed at competitions, I think many teams would rethink their designs and how much they chose to accomplish. Granted, there is A machine shop on-site, which requires a drawing and (in my experience) a long wait. However, quick and dirty does not apply here.

Finally, how does this compare with non-competing teams who utilize the "Fix-it Window?" These teams have a distinct advantage of being able to use all of their tools. How is this fair?

I understand that the Insurance Companies and lawyers are probably the ones behind these rules. But, if FIRST wants to grow this program and reduce costs to the teams, they're going to have to change the way we operate. Maybe it's time we all gave VEX a longer look.

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

BEN

[Raul]

So, where is FIRST going to draw the line?

What makes a band saw or drill press more dangerous than a 20,000rpm Dremel tool, a Sawz-all, or even a hand drill? (Ever try using a hole saw with a hand drill?) What about soldering guns, or those deadly 12V 18amp-hr batteries? A lot of teams rely on being able to build/fix/modify their robot on-site with tools they bring, because they ran out of time during the build period. Had we known that "Machine Shops" were not allowed at competitions, I think many teams would rethink their designs and how much they chose to accomplish. Granted, there is A machine shop on-site, which requires a drawing and (in my experience) a long wait. However, quick and dirty does not apply here.

Finally, how does this compare with non-competing teams who utilize the "Fix-it Window?" These teams have a distinct advantage of being able to use all of their tools. How is this fair?

I understand that the Insurance Companies and lawyers are probably the ones behind these rules. But, if FIRST wants to grow this program and reduce costs to the teams, they're going to have to change the way we operate. Maybe it's time we all gave VEX a longer look.

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

BEN
Ben,
I completely agree with you. I can show several instances where a hand drill is more dangerous than a drill press. So what is next, outlaw all power tools? And I am sure I can find many instances where a sawzall is MUCH more dangeraous than a bandsaw. The funny part is that we have brought a very small band saw, drill press and lathe to every previous competition and 90% of it use was to help other teams.

Raul

[Richard Wallace]

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.2006 Operating expenses:
FIRST Robotics Competition $14,023,526
FIRST LEGO League $1,271,223
FIRST Vex Challenge $634,510
FIRST Place $77,085
Management and general $2,676,235
Operation of building $337,218
Depreciation $361,644
Total operating expenses $19,381,441The lion's share (72%) of FIRST's budget, $14 million last year, went to putting on FRC events. This was only partly (79%) offset by the $11 million in registration fees they took in. The rest (21%) was covered by sponsors.

I wouldn't know how much of the $14 million went to insurance premiums but I'll bet it was more than any of us would like. Even so, I doubt it was more than 21% of the cost. So it is unlikely that ANY of our registration fees went to cover insurance -- that was part of the sponsors' share.

[Heretic121]

Great post richard...

Is there any way one can find out what % of that 14mil was acutally posted or spent on Inssurance?

The main reason i ask is because as everyone knows, you do sign waivers before you can participate at ANY FIRST competition.

[cziggy343]

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

yeah really. people use our drill press all the time. and so do we. that's upsetting.

[ChuckDickerson]

I am trying to figure out how to say this delicately but I can’t so I am just going to say it.

Is this the beginning of the end for FIRST? Are the lawyers going to now ruin FIRST just like everything else in this Country? I understand that safety is of utmost importance to FIRST as it should be but doesn’t this just sort of go against the whole spirit of FIRST? We are in a competition after all. We are supposed to overcome problems and damage in the heat of battle. We are supposed to work together for the betterment of all. Now we are supposed to do it without power tools? I agree. Where are they (FIRST) going to draw the line. Maybe I can understand the whole no welding in the pits due to fire safety issue but why is a stationary drill press any more dangerous than a handheld cordless one? Why is a band saw any more dangerous than a reciprocating saw? Are we going to get another update next week that now outlaws cordless drills, reciprocating saws or any other power tools?

I HATE LAWYERS! There, I said it. :mad:

[GMorin]

Update #17

Any tools that are powered other than by biometric motion are not allowed.

[GMorin]

Update #17A

Lawyers are not allowed.

[Nuttyman54]

I HATE LAWYERS! There, I said it. :mad:

sadly, I don't think it's the lawyers' fault that this is a problem. It's all of the money-happy Americans who use (and abuse, in my opinion) lawyers' best abilities for personal and financial gain. This wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have to worry about the PEOPLE who might bring about such a lawsuit.

That being said, this thread is a little off track. We have no positive confirmation that it is, in fact, legal pressure that is the cause of this new ruling. It's likely, but I wouldn't be so fast to jump to conclusions without any solid evidence

[Lil' Lavery]

Ben,
I completely agree with you. I can show several instances where a hand drill is more dangerous than a drill press. So what is next, outlaw all power tools? And I am sure I can find many instances where a sawzall is MUCH more dangeraous than a bandsaw. The funny part is that we have brought a very small band saw, drill press and lathe to every previous competition and 90% of it use was to help other teams.


116 is in the same boat. A couple years ago we designed our new pit set up (the "ark") specifically to set up our bench drill press, bandsaw, and belt sander so that both 116 and other teams could use it. And teams did use it. There have been a few teams over the years who have spent nearly as much time in our pit as in theirs. Now we are no longer allowed to bring them.
When I informed 116 of this at our meeting tonight, the response was shock and displeasure. I am NOT happy with this rule, not by a longshot.

[MrForbes]

I don't see what the big deal is...but then my favorite tools (even in my home shop) are tin snips, hacksaw, and files.....and a big vise...and I guess the big hammer makes the list too.

[Justin]

I think there are good points on both sides of this issue. I think it also varies widely from regional to regional in terms of pit logistics but obviously FIRST can't make the call on that basis. In some cases it is a safety issue in others it isn't. Frankly though I don't see the problem of brining a mobile machine shop if you are willing to be gracious about it and allow others to use it, within reason. Also I think there is a fairness here when you use a FIRST machine shop it is up to the person operating the machine, which as I understand it is not the team, so when that part comes out wrong then what??? I worry as well that so much of FIRST has become all about "cover your but" if you look at all the disclaimers, waivers, etc, etc, etc. you need to sign just to be a part of FIRST or volunteer at a regional it is really getting a little out of control, but I don't know how to fix that but it does take some of the fun out of it.

What about this idea...no "civilians" in the pit? Your engineers, your pit crew, that's it. It seems like this might solve a lot of safety issues in the pit. I know walking through the pits at BAE you can barely move and likely 1/2 the people (myself included) didn't need to be there. It would make things on easier on teams, easier to get robots through, room to work without rubbing elbows with every passer by. I know logistics doesn't make this practical at every regional but what do people think about it as a potential solution?

-Justin

[meaubry]

Great to hear officially the algorithem issue is being addressd.
And, on lighter note - looks like there will be less to pack.

Grinders have been out for a while now, the real news here is that the mini-drill presses and mini-band saws won't be allowed anymore.

Too bad, those 2 have always been life safers - without them the business should pick up exponentially for the FIRST approved machine shops - let's hope that they can keep up with demand. We really don't need another thing to be upset over.

[seanl]

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

[ChuckDickerson]

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

Either can be safe if used properly, either can be dangerous if used improperly. Since you can't do anything about stupidity the only choice is to outlaw them for all. Why one and not the other, who knows? :rolleyes:

[MrForbes]

Both drill presses and handheld power drills can be safe or unsafe, depending on how they are used. Perhaps they have another reason for the new rule?

[sanddrag]

Perhaps the solution to the problem is for FIRST to establish (or allow one team to establish) a "Simple Drilling and cutting station" separate from the machine shop, so they are not loaded down with other duties. Three rules
1. Mark points to be drilled and Mark size
2. Mark cut lines
3. Wait in line

just thinking out loud

[Lil' Lavery]

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

With a hand held, the drill (and specifically the bit) are the safety risk. With a dress press, typically the object being drilled becomes the safety risk (a piece of flying sheet metal can be lethal).

[Gabe]

Prehaps instead of banning these tools, FIRST should allow them at competition only in a specified area away from the pits and only under the supervision of a qualified safety judge. If anything, it would give the judges chance to observe other teams' build habits (both good and bad) and make safety judgements accordingly for specific teams.

A little annoyed at the radio update, not the fact that it is useful information to know, but because it means that we must relocate our radio. (Currently buried deep in the robot next to the thick battery cables, with aluminum framing above and below.)

[The Lucas]

A little annoyed at the radio update, not the fact that it is useful information to know, but because it means that we must relocate our radio. (Currently buried deep in the robot next to the thick battery cables, with aluminum framing above and below.)

Those are just (good) suggestions. You are not going to fail inspection if you don't comply with the radio guidelines. Those things are so bulky it is sometimes hard to find space for them.

[ScoutingNerd175]

What about this idea...no "civilians" in the pit? Your engineers, your pit crew, that's it. It seems like this might solve a lot of safety issues in the pit. I know walking through the pits at BAE you can barely move and likely 1/2 the people (myself included) didn't need to be there. It would make things on easier on teams, easier to get robots through, room to work without rubbing elbows with every passer by. I know logistics doesn't make this practical at every regional but what do people think about it as a potential solution?

This doesn't seem like a particularly useful situation. I'm sure that most teams try to keep all non-essential people out of the pits. But I know that when I have had people at competitions and I wanted to get them interested in FIRST, taking them to the pits is always what interests them the most.

And on a more basic level, I don't know how pit scouting would ever get done if we couldn't have people down there. Because our drivers and pit crew can only help with that if they have time, which isn't often at all.

[Joe Ross]

A little annoyed at the radio update, not the fact that it is useful information to know, but because it means that we must relocate our radio. (Currently buried deep in the robot next to the thick battery cables, with aluminum framing above and below.)

That exact radio information has been on the IFI forum and posted multiple times on chiefdelphi ever since teams started reporting radio problems (and partially mentioned in update 15).

Remember that this update only lists the mounting guidelines as a recommendation.

[Tri_Lam]

i forsee really long lines, and frustrated workers at FIRST machine shops

[mathking]

I think the cutting and drilling station idea has some merit as an alternative. As a side note, in my actuarial experience I discovered that statistically speaking, drill presses are among the most dangerous shop tools, particularly in an enclosed space. Sean Lavery is quite correct when he pointed out the flying metal danger.

As for hating the lawyers, or hating people trying to make a quick buck, we have to remember that another reason the system is the way it is now. There is a direct causal link to people and corporations who tried to evade responsibility when they actually did do something wrong or unsafe.

PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I foresee a massive backup at the regional machine shops...

Now if you want to do something as simple as cut a piece of metal, it seems you will be making a trip to the machine shop. I suppose there are smaller, hand held version of these cutting tools though that are more mobile, but also could be potentially more dangerous than their stationary counterparts.

Maybe all of this could be avoided by teams signing another waiver of some sort?

[Tri_Lam]

I foresee a massive backup at the regional machine shops...

Now if you want to do something as simple as cut a piece of metal, it seems you will be making a trip to the machine shop. I suppose there are smaller, hand held version of these cutting tools though that are more mobile, but also could be potentially more dangerous than their stationary counterparts.

Maybe all of this could be avoided by teams signing another waiver of some sort?

yeah someone get one it have home work cant do it -_-;

-good bye power saws hello hand saws

[CraigHickman]

From my perspective, outlawing drill presses is not a good move. I have hurt myself on a hand drill more than I have on a drill press. I do in fact now have limited motion on my right wrist due to a hand drill.

[artdutra04]

Perhaps the solution to the problem is for FIRST to establish (or allow one team to establish) a "Simple Drilling and cutting station" separate from the machine shop, so they are not loaded down with other duties. Three rules
1. Mark points to be drilled and Mark size
2. Mark cut lines
3. Wait in line

just thinking out loudBrilliant!

I see no reason that a team should have to venture down to the machine shop just to use a band saw or a drill press to cut a single piece of material, and nor would I want to lose a "quick and easy" approach to cutting a simple piece of aluminum angle or Lexan if needed.

A special "drill press and band saw" area at each regional (maybe the size of two pits?) with one of each machine in there, and both being overseen by a judge/volunteer, would be a much better solution from FIRST rather than simply outright banning them.

If they really want to be safe, they can even 'enclose' the area with cloth sides to prevent any bits or chips from flying anywhere*, much like they do with mechanical voting booths, but with much more space around the tools.

I really don't want to see FIRST regress to the point of practically having to wrap everything in bubble wrap to pacify concerns over safety. If I know what I am doing, pay careful attention to what I am doing, and have respect for the tools that I use, then I shouldn't ever get hurt. No matter what injury ever occurs, a lack of one of these is always to blame, unless it's just some freak accident. Then again, in a freak accident a piece of space junk reentering the atmosphere could crash into my house tomorrow...

* Although in all the years I've used drill presses at school, robotics, and in my own basement, I have never seen chips fly more than two or three feet from a drill press. The only time 'shrapnel' becomes in issue is when someone who does not know how to use a drill press tries to drill through a small piece of material without clamping it down in a drill-press vice, and the drill bit 'sticks' in it and the material is ripped out of their hands and begins spinning like crazy.

[MrForbes]

The only time 'shrapnel' becomes in issue is when someone who does not know how to use a drill press tries to drill through a small piece of material without clamping it down in a drill-press vice, and the drill bit 'sticks' in it and the material is ripped out of their hands and begins spinning like crazy.

your footnote needs to be full size, because this is likely the real problem....

[Kevin Sevcik]

Guys, you can't stump for both decreased regional fees AND increased safety hazards in the pits. Pick one. While there are many opinions being tossed around here about how hand drills and things are just as dangerous as drill presses and bandsaws, I submit that you probably don't know what you're talking about. Insurance companies live and die by knowing the actual hard numbers on what things are and aren't dangerous. If they say banning these tools makes for less risk and lower premiums... Well you might want to believe them.

As to why drill presses and bandsaws and not hand drills and dremels... Almost all cordless drills max out at less than 1/2 horsepower. Drill presses, meanwhile, start at 1/2 horsepower and move up pretty quickly from there. Bandsaws simlarly. These mini versions are still dangerous and not to be trifled with. Basically, the fact that jig saws and hand drills can be dangerous in some situations doesn't mean that these mini versions aren't more dangerous.

As to suddenly having no options for quickly cutting angle, tube, etc.... Well I've never been failed by a good old fashioned hacksaw and the only injuries they've given me are a few barked knuckles and the occasional scald from tiny hot pieces of screws.

[dlavery]

Insurance companies live and die by knowing the actual hard numbers on what things are and aren't dangerous. If they say banning these tools makes for less risk and lower premiums... Well you might want to believe them.
I am not going to believe them .... because at this point in time we have absolutely no information to make us conclude that this restriction is in fact coming from the insurance companies. It could just as easily be coming from an exceptionally cautious person at FIRST that is trying to head off a perceived potential confrontation with an insurance company without considering the impact on the teams, or an over-zealous "safety expert" from one of the regional competitions that happened to get the ear of someone at FIRST. So before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

-dave

[Paul Copioli]

This is the last straw for me. This is my last year in FIRST.

Yes. That is what I said. This is my last year in FIRST. It is clear to me that the individuals in FIRST that are making decisions clearly do not care about the teams. I am serious. I truly believe they do not care about the teams.

In St. Louis, Richard informed me that Bill Miller himself personally instructed Richard to contact me and put a halt to my illegal bandsaw. In true Richard fashion, he even stated a rule that prohibits teams from having private "machine shops". This is classic; we had our bandsaw in our trailer packed away. A team approached us and asked us if we had a bandsaw and we said yes. We unpacked the bandsaw for the team and cut their parts (all of about 5 minutes). This was around 8:30am. At 2:30pm we made an announcement to make it available to all teams. Our bandsaw was illegal because we didn't make it available to all teams at 8:30 when we pulled it out (for another team). Needless to say, no one was able to use our bandsaw.

Richard was doing his job and he did it with class and professionalism. I would not have been able to deliver the message in such a way.

In the last 4 years we have brought our mini mill, mini lathe, and bandsaw to every competition. We have machined parts for at least 100 teams over the past years at competitions. In St. Louis, our mini-lathe was busy on Thursday for 8 hours (at least). We only used our lathe for 1 of our parts.

The FIRST society is made up of good people. The lawmakers in FIRST (that is what they are) are not listening to the people. The people have no representation and that is the root cause of the problem.

This rule is ridiculous. This rule is an extreme reaction. This rule is typical of the new FIRST. I am out. I will find a new way to mentor students ....

-Paul

[Travis Hoffman]

I was going to post a cautionary warning to FIRST leadership regarding mentors reacting severely to illogical rulings such as this, and that all the struggles with questionable rulings all season are having a cumulative effect. With Paul's post, I no longer have to do that.

This is sad....:(

Yo Manchester - please wake up and pay attention. Paul's sentiment is not an isolated opinion.

[Billfred]

I am not going to believe them .... because at this point in time we have absolutely no information to make us conclude that this restriction is in fact coming from the insurance companies. It could just as easily be coming from an exceptionally cautious person at FIRST that is trying to head off a perceived potential confrontation with an insurance company without considering the impact on the teams, or an over-zealous "safety expert" from one of the regional competitions that happened to get the ear of someone at FIRST. So before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

-daveI'd sincerely hope that those over-zealous "safety experts" realize that there are many people who have learned, either through training or experience, to operate such devices safely.

So that leads me to trying to create a solution. We have these safety captain badges, right? Suppose that we put the Safety Advisors to work on Thursday, having them make sure that the safety captain for a particular team knows how to operate their drill press/bandsaw/can opener. The captain demonstrates knowledge of all the right practices, and that drill press/bandsaw/can opener gets a sticker from the Safety Advisor, just like our robots do. This sticker grants the team the ability to use the tool in the presence of the safety captain. It's another hoop to jump through, but I'd take it over the alternative.

To steal an Andy Baker spotlight:

Don't tell the rookies to "not touch the robot", show them how to work safely.

[EOC]

I am deeply saddened by Paul's post. For the FIRST comunity to lose a person of his quality is tragic. I share his frustration with rulings unaccompanied by explanations. I would also like to urge Paul to reconsider.

[Cody Carey]

No to jump on the "FIRST SUCKS" bandwagon, but what have they been thinking? Rule after rule this year (and a little last year) seems to have been made solely for the purpose of making a rule. This is not to protect teams, as I have heard of no occasions when people were hurt due to an "unsanctioned personal machine-shop". This, and many others are only there as a restriction. It is the same thing with the spirit shown at the Championship Q&A session last year... FIRST seems to think that if they said something, no matter if problems are pointed out... that is the way it goes. Not because it is right, but because they said it. Teams don't even seem to be considered any more when it comes to the hard decisions.


Overall, I don't know what I think about FIRST anymore... I mean, I LOVE it, because without it, I wouldn't be who I am; I just think that maybe it is going the same directions as most thins, and becoming less and less concerned with its members, and more concerned with being a Corporation-mimicking non-profit organization.


WE have been in countless situations when the kindness of another team letting us use their machines has saved out robot. It will be a shame when that can't happen.

[Jack Jones]

I'm with Paul!

Who do they think they are? More importantly, who are we - and which is FIRST?

[TestEngr571]

I too am very frustrated by this ruling. It is very unfortunate that lawyers run our society these days! :mad: FIRST touts safety as a foundation for how we conduct ourselves at our own build sites and all official events, but unfortunately sometimes accidents do happen. :eek: The liability thing is really getting out of hand, didn't we all sign waivers? :confused: Anyhow the new rule states ..."FIRST does not allow non-FIRST approved mobile machine shops ..." OK, define "mobile machine shop" ... we all use portable (corded or cordless drills/saws, etc.) power tools. Further clarification of this new rule is necessary. Definition of "FIRST approved mobile machine shops" is not clear. :confused: I forsee the FIRST provided machine shops will be swamped.

How do we as graciously-professional teams setup these additional "FIRST approved" resources to help ourselves and our teammates within the constraints of this new rule? :)

[Teched3]

Many years ago, teams came ill-equipped to competitions, and as a result, many matches were played with "missing" robots (remember the placebo). I have noted that in recent years, rarely are there no-shows to matches, and I attribute this to better-built machines, along with pit facilities that allow for quick repairs. I can't imagine the onslaught on the machine shop to get even simple repairs or part modifications done. Buzz always shared their pit facilities and supplies with other teams, and would even stop repairs on their own machine to help others. What are the pits for? I guess we'll be using them to display a lot of non-competing robots.

[Andy Baker]

I thought we were supposed to focus on wearing safety glasses in the pits BECAUSE there was metal cutting happening. Our team (and others) have handed out safety glasses for years to help keep teams safe, BECAUSE we wanted to still be able to cut metal in the pits.

I heard Safety Judges start this trend last year... "no band saws, no sparks, no grinding in the pits".

We're smart enough to build a robot, program the code, and compete with a new game every year. I suppose that these "Safety Experts" don't think we are smart enough to remain safe as we cut metal.

They need to figure out a way to let us still do this. I believe that we are smart enough to keep ourselves safe while still using these tools. Maybe there does need to be some boundaries set, but not omitting this use of equipment all together. Obviously, the people who are driving this rule have not had the opportunity to be on a FIRST team.

Andy B.

[mtaman02]

I have to say over the past 5 years in being with FIRST they have done nothing but change the rules in such a way that it makes it hard to concentrate on the competition. The people at FIRST believe that what they are doing is right but in the long run it is hurting the teams tremendously. Heck they didn't even say exactly what was banned or not.

I seen many teams use 18v Circular Saws and Drills and the likes extremely safely & they always were wearing the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) To say this rule was created b/c of safety or you did not make it available to all teams participating is wrong. I know one team that lends out 99.5% of all their tools and if they didn't want to lend it out to a team b/c they were afraid of it being damaged they made sure they did the job for the team.

Maybe the reason why this rule was created was b/c the people using tools show no respect during opening / closing ceremonies and are using such tools. All you heard at the NJ Regional was power tools hard at work (Espicially during the National Anthems being sung) even when the Pit Announcer announced that such tools were not to be used during the ceremonies.

FIRST has a couple of non-common sense rules this just falls right in line with them b/c now teams are forced to "wait" in line and have it done "by a supposed professional".

I have a funny feeling the company I work for the MTA NYCTA has lent out the How To Make Stupid Rules Up as You Go Along book to FIRST which was written by books for idiots & dummies. You think the FIRST rules are questionable work for my company for a month and you will find at least 15 rules that eliminate one another to start and another thousand that don't make sense.

[Swampdude]

Last year at UCF we needed to do some grinding, and did it outside away from everything using an extension cord. We were shut down, and had to use a hand file for a mind and hand numbing hour - which a grinder would have completed in a minute.
Perhaps they could let us pick an area outside and run some extension cords / power strips etc. and let us do it out and away from the pits. BYOT but know that area is designated for "hazardous operations". Then at the enterance of that you could do your safety check on the people coming to do the work.
The backlash of this rule is detrimental, so please give us this one, and quickly cuz were packing those tools today!

BTW the grinding we needed to do required it to be done "on" the Bot, so dropping off a part wouldn't work. A machine shop drop off (in our case) would mean missing matches while the "Bot" is in line.

[KTorak]

I agree with Pail.

This is what ruling bodies typically do; they make rules/regulations without thinking about they actually affect those who must follow it. Sure, i'll admit that using certain tools in the pit can create a safety hazard. However, outlawing them completely is not the answer.

I could go on and on about a list of rules over the past 3-4 years that are completely meaningless, ridiculous and have no real benefit. Sure, they might be good for like one instance, for example, no shaded glasses in the pits because of the poor lighting, however, on the competition field, it's horrible due to the stage lighting, glare off all of the metal stuff, and the lexan sure doesn't help.

</rant>

[Swampdude]

Also to play Devils advocate here: In the years past, every time we used a dremel or grinder etc in the pit, everyone around us would look in great concern and distane. It's a natural reaction. The smoke and the noise can be disconcerting. I understand this rule. I've always wondered if they had a rule against it. Because everyone always seems so concerned when this is happening. I'm a little surprised by everyones reaction, if they've never experienced what I'm saying. However these are definitely necessary tools. So lets try to be a bit more understanding for both sides. As usual, I'm sure we can come to an agreement.

[Jim Schaddelee]

I agree with Paul ,I have been in First for ten years .I dont want this to be a bash First post and that that is not my intention. Now here the"But". I can't cant tell you the great memorys and joy ,me and my father and our team have
recieved over the year from helping other teams. Team 107 ,I like to think has a legacy of not just building robots,but service and Freindship with the teams that we compete with. Many of these friendships were made due to someone needed
help making something in the pit.
I understand safty has to be a concern ,but I truly dont believe the bandsaw is the biggest safty problem in the pits.I would argue that more accidents are from people try to hurry, the pits being to cramp and people not using proper tools.People are going to do what ever it takes to get thier robots running .I think First should leave the pits open late on the thurs night to allow"time" for team to get the robot repaired from shipping or just get working.First could set up safe area in the pits (not 20 min away)where the teams with tools and resouces would work together. I truly hope First reads this thead ,and hope Paul would reconsider. I have known Paul for years and
First need people with his pasion

jim schadelee
team 107

[Rob]

Hi Guys just a thought here...

The rule states that non FIRST approved machine shops are not allowed on site. It seems to me that some of the energy put into ranting could be put to use investigating how to get your mobile machine shops "FIRST approved" Has anyone who uses a mobile machine shop investigated this avenue?

Quitting when faced with adversity is not the answer. We have to figure out a solution within the constrainsts applied.

RAZ

[Paul Copioli]

Rob,

It's not quitting when faced with adversity. How can I look my wife and two young childern in the face when I tell them how important what I am doing is to society when the organization we are a part of is lost? It is lost. If I leave FIRST because change isn't in motion, then I WILL find another program to inspire and mentor youth. Heck, I may even start my own.

-Paul

[Rob]

HI Guys,

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this. When I read the update, my interpretation is this: If you want drill presses, bandsaws, mini-lathes etc. at an event, they must be in a mobile machine shop that is FIRST approved.

Granted the update does not detail what is involved in getting a machine shop approved. I don't see this as an attempt to ban machine shops and tools, jut to control them.

I could be very wrong, but before we jump all over FIRST for taking our bandsaws away, lets see what their Mobile machine shop approval procedure is.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks,

RAZ

[Bharat Nain]

The safety advisor's at NJ were out and about all the time. There were multiple occasions where I had my safety glasses on while typing into the laptop and they would come up to me and make sure I had them on. There were all around the place making sure every inch of that arena is safe for everyone. However, it looks like doing that is not enough. They had to go to ridiculous extents. Pessimistic and faithless.

[haroony341]

while packing for the chesapeake regional last night, we decided not to pack our small miter saw, but we figured if we needed a quick cut we could go to other team's pits or borrow some of their tools since we dont have many as it is. now my question is, does a miter saw fit into this banned category is it safe for us to bring?

[Swampdude]

HI Guys,

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this. When I read the update, my interpretation is this: If you want drill presses, bandsaws, mini-lathes etc. at an event, they must be in a mobile machine shop that is FIRST approved.

Granted the update does not detail what is involved in getting a machine shop approved. I don't see this as an attempt to ban machine shops and tools, jut to control them.

I could be very wrong, but before we jump all over FIRST for taking our bandsaws away, lets see what their Mobile machine shop approval procedure is.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks,

RAZ

I'm not going out and buying a trailer, generator etc just to run my grinder, and then man it all day in case someone else might want to grind something. I don't think a mobile shop approval is the answer either. These operations need to be done within the general competition area in order to be usefull. Not to mention If we have to take our bot out the front door into the parking lot, who knows what we're doing to it.
The answer needs to be something like reality. That means to write procedures TO actual practice and not to diverge from it (unless where necessary). We all built these bots using these tools, so all have them. We know what we need and how to do it. We all usually bring what we think we'll need, and borrow the rest. It's simple, just let us do it in a "safe-er" place and Bobs your uncle.

[Dave Flowerday]

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this.
No, this is simply another in a long string of stupid rules, and it looks like it's the one that broke the camel's back (at least for Paul, and probably others).

I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors. Seems like they're releasing rule after rule which do nothing but tick off these folks. Perhaps wiping out veteran mentors is just another piece of the grand master plan that they seem to have to "level the playing field" (despite many speeches from Dean advertising that "FIRST is not fair").

I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I told a few other FIRSTers today about this update today and every single one of them had the same reaction - "are you kidding me?"

If this is a liability issue, then create another waiver for teams to sign saying that FIRST can't be sued in the event that an injury occurs from these 'mobile machine shops.'

But odds are it's a safety issue. And I fail to see how this is the most rational, well thought out conclusion. Essentially taking away the tools that teams need in a robotics competition is not going to sit well with teams.

Scoring system issues, crazy scheduling, and now this bombshell - this has been quite the first week. What's next, no power tools allowed in the pits at all? Aside from basic fixes, would teams have all work done by the regional machine shops? I don't like the direction this may be going. And if we all don't like where this is going, then FIRST will see that. They're not blind, they do recognize us and they do take note in these forums. People complained to FIRST, there was a huge fuss about the scheduling and it's being dealt with. Everyone attending week two regionals, talk to someone about this, or contact FIRST directly to let them know how you feel about it.

[Brandon Holley]

It is a sad day in FIRST to hear a man of Paul's stature so affected by this rule. I think FIRST needs to evaluate their methods because many MANY people are becoming more and more upset with each passing day and each uncalled for rule.

[JohnBoucher]

How many of you have helped out other teams build themselves a robot on Thursday? It's amazing to watch.

No more one day wonders, I suppose. :(

I am all for safety, but this will put a damper on that teams helping teams. We may be misinterpreting this. Let's wait and see how it plays out this weekend.

[Swan217]

It is clear to me that the individuals in FIRST that are making decisions clearly do not care about the teams. I am serious. I truly believe they do not care about the teams.

...

The FIRST society is made up of good people. The lawmakers in FIRST (that is what they are) are not listening to the people. The people have no representation and that is the root cause of the problem.

This rule is ridiculous. This rule is an extreme reaction. This rule is typical of the new FIRST. I am out. I will find a new way to mentor students ....

-Paul

I saw this update and the first thing I thought was, "Uh oh, an anti-ThunderChicken rule." Then, I realized that was ridiculous. It's actually an anti-PITS rule. Isn't machining part of what defines the pits? The pits aren't just for polishing up your bot and changing batteries. They're for FIXING your robot. Teams aren't going to last long without being able to fabricate components at their pits.

The second thought I had was, "OMG, Paul's gonna flip." So I'm not really surprised at his post. He has every right to be upset, but quitting isn't the answer. I've been on robotics teams (nudge) and other organizations where I thought a certain rule or certain rulemakers were being completely unreasonable. But I stuck through it to the end, fighting tooth and nail, until I was proven right. I think that's one thing that I learned being a mentor, that things you truely believe in are worth fighting for, and not quitting on. I believe in the promise of FIRST, and I will try everything I can to keep that promise moving.

There are people that are going to get hurt. I personally saw a kid get his nose cut up pretty bad, just by lifting a robot at Atlanta last year. That's worse than most people will see from a bandsaw or a drill or a mill. A much better alternative is an injury waiver at competitions. I don't see how an injury waiver would add any more hassle to the teams than now.

Paul (and others) - just wait a week. Wait for the finals where there are 6 boxes on wheels bouncing around, because the teams weren't able to have access to a bandsaw or a drill. Wait for the Saturday morning when 500 people are crowded around one bandsaw in the machine shop, because the provided "machine shop facilities at every FRC regional event to meet your various needs" doesn't even come close. Wait for the chorus of teams to complain that they are unable to machine the most basic components. FIRST will turn around so fast it'll make your head spin.

Also look for a "robotics team union" to crop up, led by Woodie Flowers Award team mentors like Baker and Raul and Beatty and Patton, to attempt to put rationality back into the rules, and make sure that nasty surprises like this don't happen again. If FIRST doesn't listen to people that it recognizes as true role model FIRST Mentors, then it is a hypocrisy.

Incidentally, there have been times I've known of when the FIRST field needed to be fixed and individual team shops made the parts to fix the field (because the machine shop was full, BTW). Think about that.

[dtape]

i agree with the majority of this thread. My team normally brings a drill press to regionals and if other teams come to us asking to use it, we will let them. All of our students are required to be checked out on drill presses or band saws by our engineers befor using them each year. FIRST should do something similar. Have people checked out for using these items instead of outright banning them. Either that, or have a seperate area as has already been suggested.

[Ken Loyd]

[QUOTE=Dave Flowerday;592557]

"I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors."

As a nine year veteran of FIRST I have seen some extremely stupid and unsafe power tool usage in the middle of the pits. I for one am happy to see the removal of some of the more dangerous machines from the pits. The machine shops that teams bring to events and share with the other teams are another matter. If Team Crackpot can run their converted school bus/ machine shop in a safe manner, more power to them.

"I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many."

I would hope that Paul steps back, takes a deep breath, looks at pictures of kids from past teams, and keeps on doing great things for kids.

Ken

[Alan Anderson]

As a nine year veteran of FIRST I have seen some extremely stupid and unsafe power tool usage in the middle of the pits. I for one am happy to see the removal of some of the more dangerous machines from the pits.

Banning band saws won't improve hack saw safety. Banning drill presses can easily cause more incidents involving hand drills. The way I see it, it's not the devices that need more regulation, it's the procedures for using them.

After, all, the most dangerous machine in a typical pit is a FRC robot.

Before I get too upset at this new rule, I'm going to wait for some information on what "FIRST-approved machine shop" is supposed to mean.

[Justin]

Does this update and rule perhaps speak to some larger issues? Someone in the thread mentioned that the people in charge at FIRST were not on a team and don't have those experiences this is true with some notable exceptions. But it seems like for a long time I and now it seems many others have wondered where is the responsiveness to teams from FIRST. It always bugs me that FIRST will issue updates like this WITHOUT consulting the teams. As Andy Baker said teams are smart, they build robots, they can figure this out out to. But FIRST doesn't ever go to the teams they just say "hey here is how we are doing this form now on." You would hope that FIRST could be more of a community and respect the community they have and be less like a product leaving teams with the only recourse they have in the business world, stop buying the product. I think though if you look back through the years there are countless examples of FIRST (and Dean/Woodie) ignoring the FIRST community and failing to tap the talent within. One example that sticks out in my mind is "The FIRST Song" who better to write a song about FIRST than those in FIRST what's more what a great opportunity for collaboration among teams (ala "We are the World"). On the flip side a good example of tapping team talent is the safety videos they do at kickoff.

My advice to FIRST is don't treat teams like your subjects, respect the community you've built, embrace that community, use the community to solve tough problems after all once upon a time that is what FIRST was about. Ignore this advice at the peril of the organization teams will stop buying a bad product.

Justin

P.s. Like others I include the disclaimer of I am not intentionally trying to pile on FIRST but perhaps this will be the tipping point or wakeup call. FIRST may be in charge but what are they without teams, and registration fees. I will continue to volunteer, and attend competitions because FIRST is an inextricable part of me. It's the teams who get it and it's the teams who can right things.

[Richard Wallace]

... before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

Before I get too upset at this new rule, I'm going to wait for some information on what "FIRST-approved machine shop" is supposed to mean.This is what I love about engineers and why I have spent my career (so far) pursuing faith's perfection as an engineer. Engineers crave and demand facts, and won't reach a conclusion without them.

It is a safe bet that FIRST has gotten an earful of our concerns on this subject. I hope we will hear more from FIRST aimed at resolving our concerns, and soon.

[Tytus Gerrish]

After, all, the most dangerous machine in a typical pit is a FRC robot.

somone took the time to teach me how to use every shop tool they are not dangerous if in good repair and used properly. i have never dammaged myself with anything in the pit other than an FRC robot

[Swan217]

somone took the time to teach me how to use every shop tool they are not dangerous if in good repair and used properly. i have never dammaged myself with anything in the pit other than an FRC robot

Please note the phrase "in the pit." OUTSIDE the competition, however ;).

Tytus has a really good point here, which is that if someone as accident prone as him can operate machine shop tools without getting injured, so can everyone else. It's not the use of the tools that is dangerous, it's the lack of educated use. You can injure yourself on "FIRST approved" machinery just as easily as on non-approved machinery, just because you don't know how to use it properly. Education is the key.

[ALIBI]

I have to agree with Alan Anderson that the most dangerous mechanisms in the Pits are the FRC Robots. Just like the Match Pairings observed last weekend, FIRST will probably come up with something to fix this. FIRST must have some reason for coming out with new rule. Lets all take a deep breath and see what FIRST does now that they are seeing team reaction to the rule. We are all in this together, GP, is really all about respect. A small bandsaw, drill press, portable mill like the one used by Team 107, etc. are enhancements to the pits. Not problem creators.

I stumbled across a rough draft: TEAM UPDATE #17 -- No FRC Robots Permitted in the Pits.

[johnr]

to paul. don't know you,but from other posts sounds like your team and first needs you. think about it. you might want to set up off site-corner gas station- even if you had to drive a mile it might be faster then waiting in line.no on second thought maybe it is time to flood someones e-mail. don't know who to send it to.

[Stu Bloom]

Rob,

It's not quitting when faced with adversity. How can I look my wife and two young childern in the face when I tell them how important what I am doing is to society when the organization we are a part of is lost? It is lost. If I leave FIRST because change isn't in motion, then I WILL find another program to inspire and mentor youth. Heck, I may even start my own.

-PaulIf/when that happens make sure you give me a call ...

[BiTurboS4]

The only obvious answer in for insurance purposes. SOME Americans live for lawsuits. FIRST is covering their bases since they bear ultimate responsibility as promoter. They would be the FIRST to be sued, along with the venue where it happened, along with the Team that loaned the tool, along with the Fast Food restuarant that served up the too hot coffee that spilled on the machinist who lost control of the grinder, that took off the finger, that hit some one else in the eye, that caused that person to bump the person operating the bandsaw:, which sliced into the arm......You get the point?:ahh:

You do realize the entire story behind the coffee spill correct? That it wasn't just someone spilling coffee on themselves? The woman had extensive burns from her waste to her knees causing major damage to her body. It wasn't a fruitless lawsuit like you might think.

[Jessica Boucher]

All of you, please take your hands off of the keyboard and take a breath for just a moment. The best thing we can do for the situation is not get carried away and handle this calmly.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

People don't look at the robot as a dangerous machine. Its amazing to see how many times you can count a team testing autonomous code with the whole team gathered 4 feet around the robot. Just food for thought.

I was on a small team in high school. We didn't bring any power tools to events more than a cordless drill and soldering iron. Somehow, we managed to get by for 9 years without missing a match due to a broken robot. In fact, we knew waiting in line for the machine shop would be a bad idea so we made it a point in our design process to use modular parts.

With that being said, it is apparent that this rule does not affect me very much. Yet, I still think it is bogus. I agree with Paul and company in saying that the latest efforts put forth by Manchester do not seem to agree with the best interest of teams or mentors. Perhaps we should take up what Dan said, and create some kind of group to obtain leverage over pathetic rules like this.

I think Paul has made this fact very clear: FIRST needs us more than we need it. With no mentors, there would be no mentoring of students. Isn't that the whole point of this program? Do we really want a whole bunch of untrained high schoolers running around with dangerous robots in a convention center full of people? I'm not saying get up and leave in an anarchial fashion, but there's no reason for us mentors to put hundreds of hours a month into a program that will not let us do the job we are supposed to do effectively.

[Tuba4]

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted. The lack of such tools in the pits will surely cause even greater backlogs at the FIRST machine shops. And we have been saved many times by those on site shops. If my vote counted, I would vote for a separte drilling and cutting station. It makes the most sense. It would relieve pressure on the machine shops by directing minor work elsewhere.


Regarding the Pittsburgh machine shop:
PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

The shop is located in the basement of Benedum Hall, the U of Pittsburgh's Engineering building. It is three blocks or so from the competition site. You must walk up and down Cardiac Hill. And there is a reason they call it Cardiac Hill!!!:ahh:

[Gabe Salas Jr.]

FIRST needs to remember their roots (http://www.usfirst.org/who/default.aspx?id=34). FIRST is "to create a world where science and technolgoy are celebrated... where young people dream of becoming science and technology heroes." (Dean Kamen)

It is even in their mission statement: "FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills."
_______________

Without the tools needed, it would be very difficult to maintain these interests and motiviate these individuals to become more (prior to joining FIRST). It is like expecting to win a battle by only giving your soldiers the parts of the gun without the tools for assembly; you might as well throw bullets.

We would not have stories like the 10 hour robot (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=254281#post254281) built during Nationals in 2004. Please tell me that this story is not one of the cornerstones of inspiration. I would love to hear your explanation.

Please come up with a resolution to this problem. We are engineers, not lawyers. I do not want Dan Swando's vision (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=592567&postcount=70) to come to fruition.

[Karthik]

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted.

Team 1114 regularly brings in a band saw and a drill press to events. 90% of the time it's being used, it is not for our team. There are literally lineups to get into our pit at certain times. I'm not worried about how this will effect our team. I am worried about how it's going to effect the numerous teams who finish their robot on practice Thursday. This rule just stinks.

Also, shouldn't have this been made clear during the build season. I'm sure many teams shipped parts in their crate, hoping that's be able to use a drill press to work on them in the pits. Knowing this rule in advance, would have dramatically altered their plans.

As the years have gone on, it seems more and more veteran mentors are getting fed up with the actions of FIRST. This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.

[Koko Ed]

I know it's a different subject but we are able to show FIRST the error of their ways and convince them to change.
We did it with the regional AVA. If enough people compalin to the right people maybe we can get them to change this as well. It's better than just gnashing out teeth and throwing up our hands.
We gotta fight for our rights guys. So let's use the resources at hand and do so. Otherwise FIRSt will become the cesspool that everone calims it's turning into now.

[Paul Copioli]

Everyone please read this:

My statement earlier in this thread is not really about the rule. The rule is a small stone in the jar. It's about the mounting evidence that FIRST, Inc. does not really care about teams or the members of the teams.

In addition to the public examples Karthik has given; I have a list of other issues that only I (and a few other FIRST mentors) know about. My list is longer than the public list and it points at a identifiable root cause to the problem.

For those of you that think my post was a knee jerk reaction; all I can tell you is that it was a well thought out post. I am calmer now than I ever have been in the last few years.

Maybe my revolt won't amount to anything. Maybe it will. Either way, I will be at peace with my decision. I do not want to leave FIRST, but it is something I feel I must do IF change does not happen.

This is my last public discussion on this topic ... until GLR.

-Paul

[wheeler]

I agree with many of the other posts about the machine shop issue. My team (#1002) has a mobile shop in our trailer and we tend to do more repairs for others than for ourselves. Last year when we offered to be an approved shop at a regional they informed me that we must carry our own liability insurance, must be manned by an adult, and no students were to work in the trailer. The last two parts were the easy part, it was the insurance that became the issue. I have not approached FIRST this year but over the fall we colonized as a Learning for Life Explorer post and with this recieved a liability and accident insurance policy through the BSA insurance the cost is minimal about $7 per student/adult and $20 for the group our total was around $700 for the year. For the student/adult it acts as a supplemental coverage and then it covers the organization. I will try to see if FIRST will accept this and if so then this is the way for the teams to go.

[Jonathan Norris]

This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.

I have carefully read through all these posts and have come to the realization that these problems we are mentioning (not only this newest issue), are not hurting the veteran teams nearly as much as the rookie teams. Last weekend I heard Dean give a lengthy speech about his plan for the growth of FIRST. He proclaimed that within a decade we have grown to just over 1000 teams, and within the next decade we must grow to over 10,000 teams.

If FIRST wants 9,000 new teams (and to not loose any teams we have), they first need to figure out how to properly supply the teams they have. I will not rant on the banebots issue more than I have, but there are other issues which have affected all teams (but more so rookie teams). Such as shipping of batteries, here in Canada there is no supplier of the specific batteries we are required to use, FP motors there is 0 stock left and no FIRST supplier to purchase from, and banebots running out of supplies their gearbox's. If FIRST wants to see this growth they are going to need to do a lot of work on their infrastructure, which is having difficulties supporting 1300 teams at this point.

FIRST needs to start listening to the teams, we work hard to try and support rookie teams, these type of rules just limit how we can help teams and are not beneficial to the community. If FIRST wants to see this type of growth they need to start listening to the great community we have here.

[John Gutmann]

As many other people I agree and disagree with the rule. Because lets face, not everyone in FIRST is mature enough to use tools. I have seen kids in my team almost been severly injured from fooling around. I have seen a kid from my team sit at a table for 20 minutes and ust make a huge solderball. Yes, I agree, don't let them in the pits, but the stupid people are only half the problem. It isn't that if you know how to use a tool correctly you will never get hurt. What is your match is in 5 mins and you need to cut comething really quick and you forget to put on saftely goggles. Also FIRST is about learning and engineering. I know none of you design your robots to break intentionally, but maybe FIRST is showing us we need to tihnk about our designs more wisely.

But also, bad things do happen and almost everyone needs to make some kind of repair on there robot. Maybe some robot on the field was breaking to rules and ripped something off your robot? now you need a way to drill a new hole and tap it. I sure would let someone in the machine shop do that to my robot. Especially if it means I have no roboto for 3 hours.

Let's not over react here, think about how many teams get by with a hacksaw, cordless drill, and file. And well if FIRST bans cordless drills, I guess it is time to blow the dust off of those good ole' hand crank drills.:D

[Protronie]

Being an outsider looking in maybe I should keep my big mouth shut...
but then, that wouldn't be me.

Looking in at First and seeing whats happening I have to admit I'm having second thoughts about getting further into it. Especially from what Paul and others say there seem to be a lot of behind the scenes action going on.

Now correct me if I'm wrong or if you only think I'm wrong...
Sounds like FIRST Inc. is akin to our government... the powers that be spend all day coming up with ways of helping us and making us safer.
Thats why when you call them, they too busy to come to the phone. Leave a message and I'll assigned a staffer, to order an intern, to get a vol. to answer your message with a form letter and a request for a contribution.

Someone mentioned a union , while I personal hate unions I'm thinking having a elected by the users representative on the FIRST Inc governing rules making committee might be a good thing.

As for all the crying, and complaining about not having this or that....
alright go ahead and get it out of your system... done? Good.

A mark of a really good engineer or half good protronie is... making do with what you got. No band saw? Okay learn to use a hacksaw... get a few people to learn the proper way of using it so one persons arm isn't noodles by the end of the day.
Instead of crying about things not being fair and this is stupid...
Find a work around... find a way to do what you need with what the current powers that be might let you have. :cool:

Well good luck all...

[sanddrag]

Before I begin, let me say the point of this post is not to bash FIRST, it is to provide feedback, because I have a theory that they aren't aware of our views, because we have not voiced them, so here goes.

I bet it took a lot for Paul to come out an reveal his feelings toward this. I bet he thought about it a long while before doing so. What does this tell me? That there are several other mentors out there who have simple become "fed up" that we haven't begun to hear from yet.

You've heard from me before, and let me step up to the podeum again.

I agree with Paul here. Am I going to leave FIRST because of it? Most likely not. I've tried, but I can't find a better replacement for my time. Would I like to leave FIRST because of all the unexplained and mysteriously illogical rules? You bet. We live in a world of explanation, reason, and logic. FIRST has become a world in which these great assets of our population are diminishing before our eyes, under direction of FIRST HQ. What is engineering about? It is about solving the design challenge, and doing so safely. But it is also about being able to communicate and prove your points. Even more so, I once had an engineering professor give a question on a test, worth only 2/100 points if we got right, buy we were gauranteed to fail the test if we got it wrong. The question was "What is the most important consideration in engineering?" The answer was "meeting the customer requirements." This is important. You can design the fanciest pneumatic rivet gun, suspension bridge, spacecraft, or organization (pause), in the whole world, but if you aren't meeting the customer requirements, it is of no value. I've said this before and I'll say it again. We are the customers here. Without us customers, FIRST doesn't exist. Does the operation of FRC cost a heck of a lot more than every team pays? You bet. But, we shall not overlook the fact that $6000, $10,000, $11,000 is NOT pocket change for the majority of the teams involved. FIRST can say all they want that we get more than we pay for, and we can never argue against this, because it is true. But, they need to realize the loops we have to jump through to get enough money to even enter, and the big risk schools take by spending so much on these programs, the constant ciriticism they find themselves under forspending so much money on these programs and simple fact that we need to make sure we get every bit that we pay for.

I want to see a general attitude of "let's explain this better" coming from FIRST, because, right now it the atmosphere from them seems a bit like "we know you love our program, you couldn't leave it if you tried. we know you are here to stay, and we know you will adapt to whatever we give you"

On the topic, I believe the pit spaces are too small for many things to happen in the pits. This is not the fault of anyone. It is dictated by venue size. This year, many of the robots easily become much larger than the pit area. It is not uncommon to have up to 10 people even in the pit area at once. It is just plain crowded, which makes it inherently unsafe in some circumstances. BUT, don't ban the tools altogether. Let them be used away from the chaos in a calmer and more spacious enviromnment other than a 10x10 pit square. I see a lot of "solutions" coming from FIRST to problems that simply don't exist. They need better problem identification and analyisis.

For my personal story, had we not been able to use a drill press last year, team 696 most likely would not have won the innovation in control award.

For the past few years (and even longer really), safety has been one of the key points emphasized in FRC. To me, this ruling says to the students, "you aren't smart enough, you aren't careful enough, you aren't good enough to use powerful and/or sharp things, and plain and simple, we don't trust you not to screw up." I have seen FRC teams where their students are fully capable of running 20 horsepower 700+ inches per minute quarter of a million dollar CNC machines, unsupervised. I have seen teams who's mentors are barely capable of operating a hack saw. But this is exactly my point. It is up to each team to determine their own comfort zone. Putting a blanket rule isn't helping anyone here. And finally, with such a big emphasis on safety, and so many people watching, you can't get away with ANYTHING. This is a good! Should any dangerous condition even begin to arise, someone, student, mentor, or FIRST volunteer will shut it down. Don't ban the safe for fear of the dangerous.

Mentors take great pride in instructing their students on proper and safe tool usage. The mentors on each team. It is not FIRST's job to tell a team that their students (and even mentors) are not good enough to perform fabrication safely. This ruling is an insult to everyone who has gone the extra mile to ensure safety.

We are skilled people. Let us show you that.

And my final point. FIRST Robotics has cost hundreds of teams hundreds more dollars this year, than in any year previously, due to what are in my opinion, poor and illogical decisions on the part of FIRST. In the first week of regionals, FIRST cost teams their matches, and more or less gauranteed that certain teams would have no chance of winning. FIRST has taken away our money, they have taken away our fair and randomly paired matches, they have take away our real time clock, and this week, they take away our machinery, and for many teams, this "last straw" will take away their hopes and dreams. What will they take away next week?

FIRST makes a big deal out of how few people are on their payroll. But how many thousands of people actually work for them each and every day. Look in the mirror folks. You are the people that make FIRST great, every minute of every day. I have never before seen a company or organization run by so few, giving membership to so many, that does not listen to it's people.

[ChuckDickerson]

Unfortunately, I think we may be seeing the beginning of the end for FIRST. All of these problems are due to the overwhelming success of FIRST. It is just starting to get too big. As the number of teams continues to grow these sorts of issues become compounded. As much as we all want to see FIRST in every school in the World I think that ultimately FIRST is going to be a victim of its own success. The whole concept worked when there were hundreds of teams, not thousands.

For the adult team members (teachers, engineers, mentors, etc.):
Is it just me or are any of you at least mildly insulted by this new rule? We teach our students safe shop practices. While they are under our supervision they are “our” kids. We love them, teach them, and would do anything to protect them. We don’t want to see them injured anymore than FIRST does, but, we don’t want to see them injured because we know and love them. FIRST doesn’t know them like we do. FIRST just doesn’t want to see them injured for fear of a lawsuit. They are smart kids. They can design, build, and test a robot with very limited resources after all. Now FIRST tells us that they either don’t have enough faith in us to teach the students properly or the students are too dumb to get it? I find that somewhat insulting. Nobody is perfect. Accidents happen. But shouldn't WE know who can and can't operate particular power tools on our team better than anyone?

[JulieB]

If something on robot breaks we can't fix it. What I see it coming down to.

FIRST IS NOT THE SAME ANYMORE!!!!
Last year I saw the most change with the safety judges. Im ok with them wanting us to be safe but we can't even operate a drill press do they we are stupid.

[Nuttyman54]

I understand safty has to be a concern ,but I truly dont believe the bandsaw is the biggest safty problem in the pits.I would argue that more accidents are from people try to hurry, the pits being to cramp and people not using proper tools.

jim schadelee
team 107

*emphasis my own*

I would like to bring some attention to this. This is a good point. What if a bandsaw, grinder or mini-mill IS the proper tool (this is probably very likely). Will teams go stand in line for 45 minutes with their robot out of commission, waiting to get it fixed by an "official" machine shop? No. They will find another method, an IMPROPER tool for the job. This is not only less safe, it is teaching bad safety and engineering practices: "If you don't have the right tool, don't wait or go someplace else to find it, use the WRONG one." Tell me, is this REALLY what we want to be teaching our students?

I also can't agree more with the comments stating how this ruling will hurt rookie and struggling teams more than it hurts the successful ones. Which teams are more likely to have poorly designed parts that fail? Which teams are likely not to have made spares?

I came from a team that had been in this situation. I can't count how many times we went to other teams' pits to use their band saw or drill press because we had to make a quick-fix part due to a poor design.

Last year we had an extremely temperamental transmission that ended up needing some welding. We sat out of 2 matches (on our alliance partners' requests) to get it fixed by the machine shop. If all teams had to go to the machine shop for their little fixes, I think it's no exaggeration that we would have been waiting almost all day.

I am upset about this ruling, but I am still waiting for more insight from those higher up. As unlikely as it may be, I have not disregarded the possibility that FIRST does have a good reason for this. I also support the idea of finding out exactly what constitutes a "FIRST Approved Machine Shop", and if we might be able to have 3 or 4 of these approved shops at each competition.

[petek]

All of you, please take your hands off of the keyboard and take a breath for just a moment. The best thing we can do for the situation is not get carried away and handle this calmly.Thank you, Jess!

Let me say that my first and most vivid memory of my first regional was how teams helped and cheered for other teams. What can better express the values we hope to instill in students - and adults, for that matter - than the spirit and determination of one team helping another prepare for competition?

That said, we really don't know what FIRST's reasoning is behind banning non-FIRST machine shops. For all we know, it might be coming from some of the venues. I can only imagine what the reaction the manager of a college field house would be when he sees metal chips falling to the covering over his precious basketball court's hardwood. Or maybe some venues prohibit non-union personnel from using machine tools on premises. Possibly it is the same kind of interpretation of "level playing field" that led to the week one match generation algorithm. We can speculate forever, but until we know the reasoning behind the rule there is little use in flaming insurance companies, lawyers and safety professionals. Well, I guess they are always fair game, but that should be in Chit-Chat!

I do hope that FIRST does give us the reason soon (and that it turns out to be reversible).

[Nuttyman54]

I would suggest that (if it hasn't been done already) a team with a mobile machine shop (or the ability to make one on short notice) post in the Q&A about getting their mobile shop approved.

[rourke]

FIRST, please improve your two-way communication skills so that decisions can be made that people embrace rather than criticize (drill presses, et al).

Companies too often dictate change without comprehending the law of unintended consequences. For instance, a change made to restrict pit drill presses will have the unintended consequence of creating other safety problems; will impede teams’ abilities to make repairs, which in turn will create other unintended consequences. (For those of you schooled in the law of unintended consequences, you will recall that World War II was the unintended consequence of the Treaty of Versailles.)

There appears to be a communication problem at FIRST. FIRST does not seem to be adequately collecting the input from stakeholders before deciding on tactical change. Nor are they adequately communicating the reason for change. The lifeblood of dynamic, growing, thriving enterprises is communication. Effective communication can limit the number of unintended consequences that result from change.

One potential solution is for FIRST to implement a reverse Q&A process. Ask designated team representatives for input on problems or pending changes, prior to changes becoming law. People will feel engaged. Unintended consequences will be fewer. A better decision will result.

The Q&A system already works pretty well one way. FIRST just needs to use it in reverse too.

[Cory]

I would suggest that (if it hasn't been done already) a team with a mobile machine shop (or the ability to make one on short notice) post in the Q&A about getting their mobile shop approved.

See this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=592630&postcount=89) post. Getting a shop approved will not be a trivial exercise.

[Dave Flowerday]

All of you, please take your hands off of the keyboard and take a breath for just a moment. The best thing we can do for the situation is not get carried away and handle this calmly.
Jessica,
I understand your position here but FIRST is slowly teaching us that the only way things like this get handled are if we make a big fuss about it. I know that's probably not the truth, but since these changes keep coming with no explanation until a big stink is made people are starting to believe they have to make the big stink to get issues looked at.

Case in point: the scheduling algorithm. Who knows what the real story is behind the scenes, but the problems with the scheduling were clearly reported after the pre-ship scrimmages. Nothing was said or done about it before the week 1 regionals (where it obviously upset a lot of people) at which point everyone made a big fuss and now it's being dealt with. To many of us, it looks like FIRST knew about the problem but chose to ignore it until a whole bunch of people got mad and got vocal. Now, if instead there had been an announcement that said "Yeah, the scheduling sucks but we just can't fix it in time for week 1, bear with us and it will be ready for week 2" (assuming that's why they didn't fix it for week 1 in the first place) then people still would have been mad but the big fuss probably would have been avoided. Similar examples to this are abundant (AVA is another).

[Lil' Lavery]

While I in no way advocate (and have been vocal in my dissatisfaction earlier in this thread) this rule, instead of bashing FIRST, why not work towards a solution? While FIRST typically lacks the transparency and accountability we want any organization to have, I doubt that they do not hear our reactions. This is quite obvious, by the reaction of FIRST and Autodesk to reinstate the regional AVA, and FIRST attempting (albeit too late for many teams) to correct the scheduling algorithm.
Perhaps we should start an ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction (say a petition?) similar to the one created after the announcement that there wasn't a regional AVA.
Regardless of the next course of action, getting steamed and angry will benefit nobody. And coming from me, that has to mean something.

[Ken Loyd]

Ask yourself this, do you want to be the mentor who makes the phone call to a parent to explain that their son or daughter has just been injured? What would you say to a ten year old who is on a school tour of the pit area when a piece of non secured aluminum flies off a drill press and punctures his head, accidents happen. Thirty-three years of teaching Industrial Arts with no serious student injuries. Yes, I teach proper tool use and safety. In a few cases it was blind luck that no one was injured. After all, they are called accidents!

I don't think FIRST is trying to chase away veteran mentors. I don't think FIRST is trying to take the fun out this great experience. I think FIRST wants to develope a safe place for everyone to enjoy the event.

This is the 16th update. FIRST has made 16 changes thus far. I would almost bet the ranch that changes will be made to this for the benifit of all.

Ken

[Billfred]

I would suggest that (if it hasn't been done already) a team with a mobile machine shop (or the ability to make one on short notice) post in the Q&A about getting their mobile shop approved.

See this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=592630&postcount=89) post. Getting a shop approved will not be a trivial exercise.
I posted a question to Q&A to see if we could get some sort of quantifiable requirements. Even if it's not trivial, hopefully some of the larger teams or coalitions of teams can get something going--and something, last I checked, still beats nothing. Hopefully the GDC will come out with something official soon.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing them ditch this restriction--I think it's doing more harm than good. But until they do, I'm certainly interested in finding out just how restricting the restriction is.

[Tazlikesrobots]

Nobody will EVER dispute that safety should be priority 1 at the event. But I am starting feel that the safety issue has gone from proactive to obsessive. Just getting out of bed can be a safety hazard (6:00 AM, dark outside and my foot just found my 4 year old's lost Lego piece by the bed corner).

[Tom Line]

Let me say thank you to First for doing what they have done. Through promotion of First they've allowed many people to have opportunities to do things they have never thought of doing before.

Unfortunately, like many of you, I think First may be falling victim to their own success. The instruction books, rules, limitations, and general beauracracy have grown each year that I've been involved. I understand from conversations with other rookies teams that they spent a great majority of their time trying to learn all the various rules, regulations, etc.

Every minute spent reading rules, regulations, etc is time spent not driving a robot. Every minute spent waiting in long lines for a machine shop that may or may not do what you want them too results in frustration.

A "good" experience is generally one you can walk away from knowing that you did your best. When, however, there are so many impediments to doing your best that you walk away with a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach, that's when people begin to think about other options. Keep it simple. Simple to enter. Simple to organize. Simple, simple, simple. For instance: why are there limitations on the brands of cylinders when so many others would work just fine, and may be stock on your sponser's shelf? I can speak from experience on this one - we lost DAYS waiting for things to ship when we had parts on the shelf that would have worked just fine.

Now we don't know the "inside" story on these decisions, unfortunately. This may be an action that is being forced not by first - but by their venues. Much like the vendors who provide replacement electronics insist they be wired a very specific way, the venues may be forcing First's hand.

That said, I think there needs to be some push-back. I think everyone should understand the basic tenant of innovation - innovation is thought without limits. Innovation is freedom. Restriction or limitation of that freedom simply inhibits innovation. Being told "you can't" is a great way to kill innovation. As many people here pointed out - how many robots this year may be denied participation in matches, or even making it to Alanta, because something broke and they no longer have the ability to fix it? How do you promote innovation within a framework that limits it?

First needs to make a concentrated effort to remove the restrictions they've placed on innovation. They need to simplify the rules, requirements, regulations, and everything else that goes along with First - other than the game itself. That's something that won't happen over night. But I'm sure that if people let First know what they want, First will deliver.

[Bongle]

Ask yourself this, do you want to be the mentor who makes the phone call to a parent to explain that their son or daughter has just been injured? What would you say to a ten year old who is on a school tour of the pit area when a piece of non secured aluminum flies off a drill press and punctures his head, accidents happen. Thirty-three years of teaching Industrial Arts with no serious student injuries. Yes, I teach proper tool use and safety. In a few cases it was blind luck that no one was injured. After all, they are called accidents!

This is actually a common fallacy: Appeal to emotion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion). You can make a similar argument about the robots themselves: What if a ramp deploys on someone's head? What if a robot runs in autonomous in the pits, runs someone over, and then drives over their head?
Or about cars: Do you want to be the guy calling someone after their 10-year-old got killed in the street by an improperly operated car? We should ban cars.

A better argument would be to find out how many people are seriously injured at regionals by team-run machine shops every year, and see if it is at all substantial.

Think of the thousands of broken bones that football churns out each year. That isn't to say that injuries are acceptable, it's just that having a zero-tolerance for injuries simply isn't doable. You end up having to restrict the sports so much (touch football) that they aren't the same anymore.

From personal experience (which is a fallacy itself), I've seen more people need serious medical attention at swim meets for heart, lung and shoulder (dislocated shoulder hitting the wall) problems than I've seen ANYONE needing medical attention at FIRST events.

It would be terrible for an injury to happen. But accidents happen. We can't let fear of what might happen or what could happen rule our lives.

Not picking on you specifically, but:
What would you say to a ten year old who is on a school tour of the pit area when a piece of non secured aluminum flies off a drill press and punctures his head, accidents happen
I'd rather make a rule saying that non-team or non-sponsors aren't allowed in the pit than the extreme safety nannyism this rule represents. Teams have been using these tools for at least 6 weeks before the competition.

My idea:
Just like robots, have inspections of team machines. If they are found to not be in good running condition or are ever seen being run improperly, put a "disapproved" sticker on them in such a way that the machine may not be run at the competition. I.e. for a drill press, put it over the drill hole. For a ban saw, put it over the saw. This would make it easy to detect people working around the system, and would provide an incentive for teams to make sure their machines are run properly.

[6600gt]

I wonder how many times GM, Ford, or Chrysler screwed up...

FIRST is just like any other organization, the larger it grow the more complex everything little thing becomes. All of the previously mentioned organizations have people being paid to take care such issues. FIRST is made up of volunteers , who have dedicated their time and resources to bring us what we have now. Please DO NOT bash the volunteers( most here are doing it indirectly in some way).

People were making a big deal about the radios but IFI came through didn't it?

One of our GM engineers told me that walking in one of their Tech Centers without safety glasses is a couple days suspension without pay! (Yes, we all wear glasses in the pits, but this shows you how serious GM is with safety with smart adults!)

FIRST has just gotten big enough were it has take some serious stands on some issues. Just like all the auto companies they have to learn form their mistakes. Are you always happy with all the decisions your Boss/Leader/President makes?

Some are seriously expecting FIRST to be perfect. Maybe they saw something in the first 3 or 4 regionals that they didn't like...Please just wait for an explanation.

[Madison]

I wonder how many times GM, Ford, or Chrysler screwed up...

FIRST is just like any other organization, the larger it grow the more complex everything little thing becomes. All of the previously mentioned organizations have people being paid to take care such issues. FIRST is made up of volunteers , who have dedicated their time and resources to bring us what we have now. Please DO NOT bash the volunteers( most here are doing it indirectly in some way).

People were making a big deal about the radios but IFI came through didn't it?

One of our GM engineers told me that walking in one of their Tech Centers without safety glasses is a couple days suspension without pay! (Yes, we all wear glasses in the pits, but this shows you how serious GM is with safety with smart adults!)

FIRST has just gotten big enough were it has take some serious stands on some issues. Just like all the auto companies they have to learn form their mistakes. Are you always happy with all the decisions your Boss/Leader/President makes?

Some are seriously expecting FIRST to be perfect. Maybe they saw something in the first 3 or 4 regionals that they didn't like...Please just wait for an explanation.

While some of these points are valid, never before have I paid for the privilege of being unhappy with the decisions people make.

Not only do we pay for the privilege of participating in these events, but we're also expected to volunteer our time to our teams, at the events and, with respect to FIRST-approved shops, carry our own liability insurance. There's some upper limit to how much we'll all give before we start demanding some visibility and input into the decision-making process.

[MrForbes]

While some of these points are valid, never before have I paid for the privilege of being unhappy with the decisions people make.

you don't pay taxes? :)

(sorry, I couldn't resist....)

[Bongle]

Not only do we pay for the privilege of participating in these events, but we're also expected to volunteer our time to our teams, at the events and, with respect to FIRST-approved shops, carry our own liability insurance. There's some upper limit to how much we'll all give before we start demanding some visibility and input into the decision-making process.

Actually, I can completely understand the shops needing to carry insurance, now that I think about it. If someone slices their arm off because of a poorly-maintained band saw in some team's trailer, someone is liable. Who is that someone? It's definetely not FIRST from FIRST's perspective, but since it occurred at a competition held by them through tool-sharing that they certainly encourage, a jury might find them liable.

Hopefully the steps required to become FIRST-approved are reasonable. Perhaps on practice day you'll just have to have it inspected, show your liability policy, and have your shop crew tested.

[Brian J. R.]

I know it's a different subject but we are able to show FIRST the error of their ways and convince them to change.
We did it with the regional AVA. If enough people compalin to the right people maybe we can get them to change this as well. It's better than just gnashing out teeth and throwing up our hands.
We gotta fight for our rights guys. So let's use the resources at hand and do so. Otherwise FIRST will become the cesspool that everone calims it's turning into now.
I agree with you on this one, but what if it where to be changed so that if you display safety with those tools to a safety judge, your team earns the right to use those tools. This would give FIRST the ability to regulate who uses their own tools based on how safe they can be with them. If you don't secure down the piece of sheet metal you are drilling, then your team shouldn't be able to use those tools. This would keep people and teams extra safe, and reduce the burden on FIRST as well. If you want to keep using that bandsaw, you had better use it carefully or we outlaw your team from using it. Plain and simple.


Brian Richards, 1983 Mechanic

[Nuttyman54]

Actually, I can completely understand the shops needing to carry insurance, now that I think about it. If someone slices their arm off because of a poorly-maintained band saw in some team's trailer, someone is liable. Who is that someone? It's definetely not FIRST from FIRST's perspective, but since it occurred at a competition held by them through tool-sharing that they certainly encourage, a jury might find them liable.

Hopefully the steps required to become FIRST-approved are reasonable. Perhaps on practice day you'll just have to have it inspected, show your liability policy, and have your shop crew tested.


We sign waivers before being allowed to compete at the venues that release FIRST from any liability for injuries and death short of gross negligience or willful misconduct. Something tells me that improper use of a tool does not qualify as either of those on their account.

The form also releases "FIRST's Cooperating Entities". I'm no lawyer, but I'm assuming this includes the competition venues.

I still think, regardless, that tool inspection is a great idea. The only major constraint I can see would be a lack of volunteer manpower to do the job.

[JBotAlan]

I think everyone here needs to take a huge breath. Good air in, bad air out.

Now, do you feel the way you do because of the 100-some other replies here, or because of the actual rule? Are you ticked off because of what someone else implied here? Is this as big of a problem as we're making it?

FIRST recognized that their matches were not random. They also said that it would be fixed soon. Before they released this information, people were *freaking out* thinking that this was an intentional conspiracy to match "newbie" teams with other "newbies", to kill some teams, whatever. FIRST is fixing it. That sure seems a lot like what's going on here.

FIRST made a call. A whole lot of people don't like that call. Just give FIRST a little bit of time--they don't move as fast as our posts here.

Now, how many people here have actually contacted FIRST? Chances are, FIRST doesn't even know that teams are this flustered by the new ruling. Let them know! But please, please do so in a GP way!

I'm not going to interject my stance on this issue; it really doesn't belong here.

Just my 2 cents

JBot

[Bongle]

Now, how many people here have actually contacted FIRST? Chances are, FIRST doesn't even know that teams are this flustered by the new ruling. Let them know! But please, please do so in a GP way!

To quote dlavery from the match schedules thread:
There is no need to call your Regional Director, yell at the Event Managers, telegraph your Senior Mentor, e-mail FIRST Headquarters, or petition your Congressional Representatives about your displeasure with the issue. FIRST already gets it. They can spend their very limited time reading your correspondence or solving the problem, but not both. Where do you want to have them focus their energies?

However, since FIRST itself just put this rule change out, maybe it is a good idea.

Contact info:
States A-L (http://www.usfirst.org/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=2986)
States M-O (http://www.usfirst.org/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=2988)
States P-Z (http://www.usfirst.org/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=3010)
Outside the US (http://www.usfirst.org/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=2990)

[Madison]

Actually, I can completely understand the shops needing to carry insurance, now that I think about it. If someone slices their arm off because of a poorly-maintained band saw in some team's trailer, someone is liable. Who is that someone? It's definetely not FIRST from FIRST's perspective, but since it occurred at a competition held by them through tool-sharing that they certainly encourage, a jury might find them liable.

Hopefully the steps required to become FIRST-approved are reasonable. Perhaps on practice day you'll just have to have it inspected, show your liability policy, and have your shop crew tested.

Insurance makes sense.

More than anything, people seem to be reacting to this awkward place FIRST has been in for a few years. In a lot of ways, the organization needs to grow up and start acting like an adult -- and I perceive some of these rules and regulations to be how they're showing their authority. At the same time, however, FIRST still relies almost entirely upon a group of volunteers to run its events and they need to involve those people in the organization more before they start to jump ship. Teams and individuals incur significant costs while volunteering as mentors or at events and FIRST can't pretend that we'll continue to absorb increased costs while, simultaneously, receiving less visibility into why we're being told to do some of these things.

If they don't yet have it, the additional cost of insurance to teams that have invested in mobile machine shops is probably inconsequential. I think the least that FIRST can do, however, is offer some explanation as to why we should bear the burden of this additional cost.

[ham90mack]

Hmm... This may be a little off topic, but for some reason FIRST's site is down. Not that I wanted to contact them, but here is the error:

Server Error in '/' Application.

Could not load file or assembly 'App_Web_erklobc_, Version=0.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null' or one of its dependencies. The system cannot find the file specified.
Or, at least, an abbreviated version. All pages seem to be this way except on the www2 server. Anybody else getting this error?

[jgannon]

FIRST made a call. A whole lot of people don't like that call. Just give FIRST a little bit of time--they don't move as fast as our posts here.
It seems that there's another issue here, deeper than just this one update. FIRST has made a number of calls this season that have been perceived by some as questionable... changes to the pre-season design rules, dropping AVA, replacing the old KOP trannies with the Banebots, requiring the shipment of batteries, changing the match generation algorithm (and possibly not fixing it as soon as they were aware of the problem), and now this.

Some say that the problem is not that FIRST hasn't fixed this particular issue yet, but rather that they have made a number of changes, many of them midstream, and they have had unexpected consequences for teams. Each issue has been met with a great deal of whining, and most have been dealt with in due time. (The battery rule remains a mystery to most of us.) However, there is still a lot of heartache for teams in the mean time. The issue at hand (and I think what Paul is trying to get at) is not that there won't be any drill presses in the pits tomorrow. It's that FIRST has lost some sense of its responsibility to the community, and is making big decisions that affect a lot of teams without seeking community input, or at least providing some semblance of sensible justification to offset the unforeseen.

There are great ideas already in this thread. Stephen Rourke's suggestion of a reverse Q&A is excellent. I think it would be helpful to accept the ruling of Update 16, at least for the time being, and to focus on suggestions for solving the bigger issue. It's been said a lot, but don't forget the big goal of inspiration. Regardless of this ruling, we still have to be inspirational tomorrow and through the remainder of the season. It sure is harder to inspire when your robot is broken and in need of machining, but it's not impossible.

Gracious professionalism is important, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't complain. FIRST hears us, they know they need to preserve their customer base, and consequently I'm expecting change. (And I'm not talking about drill presses.)

[santosh]

Sorry for the essay.

I too got that error too on the site...

Okay, I understand that what I say here probably will not amount to as much as these amazing mentors and engineers and followers have already said.

Okay, I am in no fashion tooting 1002's horn. At competitions, EVREYONE knows about 1002's trailer. One of these reasons is becuase QUITE A FEW TEAMS USE IT. Trust me, I believe all we used our own trailer for was to lose some weight by drilling a couple holes. The rest of the time it was being used to help fix parts of other teams. Why do we bring this trailer? It helps us extend a helping hand to ALL other teams.

Also, it is the CircuitRunners, who are insured on our trailer, that are doing the work, not other teams. Yes, we know we aren't machinists by any means, but we are pretty confident that we know machine shop safety pretty well. I would much rather pay for insurance and would be more than happy to pay for insurance of teams with financial difficulties than to outlaw machining.

And again, what is the point in having a pits if this is going to occur. I think we looked at all of our powred pit tools and all we have is two drills that will fit under these guielines if they are set to power level 1.

How is FIRST to inspire struggling rookies and other teams when they're robots aren't working becuase they couldn't work on it during competition. It is a little disheartening. I know it is all about the process, but trust me, it is a little disheartening.

I believe the role of the Safety Judges should be expanded into Safety controllers. Something along the lines where their jobs are to make sure everyone is using these power tools safely. Not to just award teams from being safe. Maybe 1002 is part of the new gaurd of teams that doesn't fully understand what older teams are talking about in the shift in FIRST.
Someone please explain by either posting emailing me or pming me. I am curious.

Also, if FIRST wants to make this competition more like a sport, it is going to have to have functioning robots. No functioning robots = no exciting competition. Extensions of the build season to eliminate the tools in the pits would not work for two reasons. A. Stuff breaks. B. For many teams including ours for sure, the work left to do expands to the time frame given.

I am not sure why this occured so recently. We were asked to bring our Machine Shop Trailer to VCU this year (we did) and we were asked about bringing it to Peachtree also by people FROM FIRST and have brought it to every event that we have ever been to in the past four years and have not had a single accident or injury.
This leaves me greatly confused.

Also Mr. Copioli you leaving would not just impact your team, but many others. Trust me, when our mentors talk about the great mentors of FIRST, your name is always up there. In fact, our main mentor pulled me out of class to read your post. That is how large of an influence that you and your team have had on teams as far away as us. I respect your decision and fully understand that I have had absolutely no say in your decision, but I thought I would just throw that out there.

THIS IS IN NO WAY BASHING FIRST. It has provided an outlet for thousands of students to embrace their hidden talents, learn about engineering, and has pointed many at risk students in the right direction.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Dear FIRST,
I hope you are listening (reading) this thread.
I know you are working hard, harder then most people even realize. Some very well respected and knowlegeable people have answered with their thoughts in the previous pages. I suggest that when a Woodie Flowers award person like a Paul Copioli or Andy Baker gives their perspective, it is both heartfelt and indicative of their feelings towards inspiring students. Not just those that handle the tools and work on the robot but those others that may be rookies looking for help or veterans stuck on a problem or the freshmen in the stands crying over a broken robot. When a Jim or Ron Schadelee or a Raul speaks out, know that these are individuals who can turn a chunk of aluminum into a functioning part in the blink of an eye. (If I was able, I would nominate these folks for a WFA for their impact on students.) I know for myself it is hard to watch this discussion in light of the 11 + seasons I have participated in FIRST. In those competitions, I have watched these talented individuals and many others perform miracles on broken and under designed robots. They did it because of the deep personal belief that their work was changing the world one student at a time. I have seen hundreds of teams inspired to do better and walk away better human beings because one of these people smiled and asked if someone needed help. I have watched alliance partners give thanks that a well tooled and knowledgable team had taken their one broken partner under their wing and made a part better, fixed a defect, corrected an error. These people, these thousands, have heard your message and believed that it is truly better to be gracious professionals than to be competitors.

Perhaps you made a decision in haste or perhaps you didn't weigh all of the data equally. I am sorry but I have to agree with Raul, Paul, Andy, Jim, Stu and all of the others who have not yet spoken. The small tools in the pits should be allowed to stay. If there are issues unspoken, I am sure they can be addressed, please ask.

A humble mentor,
Al

P.S. I understand the grinder rule and agree.

[Not2B]

Oops.

The year we get access to good tools and fancy equiptment, and make a robot that requires some accuracy, and then we loose the tools to repair it.

Had this happened the last few years, we woun't have even blinked. You can build a robot that is 99% buildable and repairable with a hacksaw and a hand drill. But you have to plan for it. Really do some engineering to make it happen.

We didn't plan on it for the first time in years.

Oops.

[Winged Wonder]

-groans inwardly- my expectations for this weekend have shifted radically.

Everyone has had vailid points, from both sides of the issue. Now, let me just say that I am in no way trying to say "FIRST is horrible" and I'm sure that we'll hear more about this update... but these are just my thoughts for now.

...Rule after rule this year (and a little last year) seems to have been made solely for the purpose of making a rule. ... This, and many others are only there as a restriction. It is the same thing with the spirit shown at the Championship Q&A session last year... FIRST seems to think that if they said something, no matter if problems are pointed out... that is the way it goes. Not because it is right, but because they said it. Teams don't even seem to be considered any more when it comes to the hard decisions.

Overall, I don't know what I think about FIRST anymore... I mean, I LOVE it, because without it, I wouldn't be who I am; I just think that maybe it is going the same directions as most things, and becoming less and less concerned with its members, and more concerned with being a Corporation-mimicking non-profit organization.

WE have been in countless situations when the kindness of another team letting us use their machines has saved out robot. It will be a shame when that can't happen.
I must say that I sincerely sympathize and agree with you. This will be my fourth and final year in robotics as a team member, and boy have I noticed the changes over the years. It makes me sad. Things aren't the same, I can say that for a fact. I still love FIRST robotics because of the amazing impact its had on my life--I wouldnt be who I am today without it--but... ugh. Some things are just so frustrating. I'm so sad that this had to be the turning point for so many wonderful mentors, not just Paul, because I know he's not the only one.

I was there last year at the Championship Q&A; that was rediculous. I remember being so mad about the fact that rules were becoming so illogical, so circular and even seemingly pointless... and there was nothing we could do about it! No matter how many people talked and pointed out the contradictions, in the end, nothing changed. So we just had to make do, and we all survived, in spite of it all.

Clearly, it is true that FIRST teaches life lessons. Its just that today's lesson seems to be: Life is not fair. They just throw a new obstacle in our way, seemingly without regard to what those affected by it have to say, and just expect us to deal with it. And as much as we complain about it and try to offer solutions and this and that and everything else... until someone explains the reasoning behind this (there HAS to be some sort of reason they put up that new rule...) or until someone with some influence takes notice and helps us make a difference, it appears like we're just going to have to deal with it.

But from my experience, I have been in several frustrating situations where the higher-ups don't consuly those directly affected by their decrees beforehand. It is extremely frustrating. All they would have to do is contact a few well-known, trusted, experienced mentors/students/FIRSTers and run the idea by them before it becomes official. "hey we're considering this and this and that. what do you think about that?" I'm sure their feedback would be priceless. It's input from a credible source, giving a secondary opinion from a point of view that you may not have considered beforehand. Is it so hard to take two seconds to see what someone else has to say?

[Chaos204]

Last year at Champs Buzz saved us with their band saw so we decided to get a small vertical band saw. so we might be able to return the favor to another team. Well so much for that. such is life.
Not to mention the fact that we did not have a vertical band saw in the shop ether. Now we do!
See there is a good side to everything!

[Joe Matt]

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.


Thought we might need some musical zen in this thread. My opinions have been said in this thread, I will not repeat them as I don't have the power nor position many others have in FIRST so the words will not have the same meeting, and I don't want it to lose their meaning.. I just wish the best will come out of this.

[Kyle]

Dear FIRST,
I hope you are listening (reading) this thread.
I know you are working hard, harder then most people even realize. Some very well respected and knowlegeable people have answered with their thoughts in the previous pages. I suggest that when a Woodie Flowers award person like a Paul Copioli or Andy Baker gives their perspective, it is both heartfelt and indicative of their feelings towards inspiring students. Not just those that handle the tools and work on the robot but those others that may be rookies looking for help or veterans stuck on a problem or the freshmen in the stands crying over a broken robot. When a Jim or Ron Schadelee or a Raul speaks out, know that these are individuals who can turn a chunk of aluminum into a functioning part in the blink of an eye. (If I was able, I would nominate these folks for a WFA for their impact on students.) I know for myself it is hard to watch this discussion in light of the 11 + seasons I have participated in FIRST. In those competitions, I have watched these talented individuals and many others perform miracles on broken and under designed robots. They did it because of the deep personal belief that their work was changing the world one student at a time. I have seen hundreds of teams inspired to do better and walk away better human beings because one of these people smiled and asked if someone needed help. I have watched alliance partners give thanks that a well tooled and knowledgable team had taken their one broken partner under their wing and made a part better, fixed a defect, corrected an error. These people, these thousands, have heard your message and believed that it is truly better to be gracious professionals than to be competitors.

Perhaps you made a decision in haste or perhaps you didn't weigh all of the data equally. I am sorry but I have to agree with Raul, Paul, Andy, Jim, Stu and all of the others who have not yet spoken. The small tools in the pits should be allowed to stay. If there are issues unspoken, I am sure they can be addressed, please ask.

A humble mentor,
Al

P.S. I understand the grinder rule and agree.


Al, I agree with what you said more that I can express in this post.

This thread has turned into something that it should not have had to. Most of the most influential names that grace Chief Delphi and FIRST, and the new people who are working there way to be the next influential people, have all posted in this thread stating their distaste for some of the rules in this update. It is a sad day when people say that they will leave this program because of a rule that hasn't had time to be reviewed or properly discussed in the proper way. FIRST has done many more thousands of great and awesome things prior to this rule and I think that FIRST will continue to do that in some shape or form for a very long time.

This rule will effect MOE and many other teams. C-clamp your piece to a table and drill it with a portable drill, I know this isn't the same as a mounted drill press but its what be done until the rule is changed it can be done I have done it before in a pit when our drill press was temporally out of service and it worked fine. Injuries will happen no matter where you are or what you are doing being safe with everything you do will decrease those chances of having an incident. If you do not have the proper tools or training find someone who does, and if you are at a competition with MOE find one of us and we can help.
FIRST has taught me and I am sure many many many others how to adapt and overcome problems thrown at you, here is another problem we can do this together if we work together and help each other.

Paul, please don't let this be the straw to break your back I am sure that you are strong and can make it through this you have added so much to FIRST and will take even more away if you decide to leave.

I strongly believe that this rule will change in someway and the world will once again be normal.

I hope that adding my 2 cents with everyone else's has raised enough money for FIRST to look into this problem.

[Rich Ross]

I'd rather use a hacksaw and drill than play the same opponent every match.

Two steps forwards, but one step backwards. Lets make sure to keep letting first know about the positives, as well as expressing our concerns.

[Elgin Clock]

That said, we really don't know what FIRST's reasoning is behind banning non-FIRST machine shops. For all we know, it might be coming from some of the venues. I can only imagine what the reaction the manager of a college field house would be when he sees metal chips falling to the covering over his precious basketball court's hardwood. Or maybe some venues prohibit non-union personnel from using machine tools on premises. Possibly it is the same kind of interpretation of "level playing field" that led to the week one match generation algorithm. We can speculate forever, but until we know the reasoning behind the rule there is little use in flaming insurance companies, lawyers and safety professionals. Well, I guess they are always fair game, but that should be in Chit-Chat!

Well guess what FIRST? You are dealing with Engineers here and we are a special breed. Engineers don't want to know just that a rule has been written, but more importantly why, and who it will effect. The lame exscuse of "it's in the name of safety" may work for your average Joe, but when I can pull up an OSHA pamphlet that says something like "in a work environment glasses with tints are allowed", (just one example) then you need to come up with some better reasoning for some rulings.

[Andy Grady]

Ya know, often I think that these knee jerk decisions and rulings are more of a result of the knee jerk reactions you find on these boards. If a rule is made for a season, those who tear apart and lawyer the rules will find it, and complain about it heavily. If a rule doesn't exsist, those who tear apart and lawyer the rules will complain about it heavily. FIRST has probably become so jumpy as a result of the masses reacting harshly over the slightest thing, that they are now overgoverning. Or maybe there is reason to their madness and they just aren't really good at explaining...the employees are human afterall.

I know there is more to the picture than is right in the open, on all sides of the matter. I will not dive into that matter, nor do I want to.

I'm just saying, have patience my friends. The future depends on it.

[Rich Ross]

Here's thought number 2:

Maybe FIRST is against the policy of people building their robots at competition. Maybe they are opposed to the idea of shipping a box of parts. Maybe FIRST has a good, legitimate reason.

But you know what? It just doesn't matter. If this was the policy, we should have been told AT KICKOFF about such practices. Thats my take. CHanges of this magnitude cannot happen.
It's like a company, deisigning a product. The product is on schedule, and is set to be finished on time. Then, The customer calls and says that no computers should be used for the remainder of the project, but the deadline is still the same. The designer does not finish on time, and is subsequently given a lower pay rate than they should have for missing their deadline.

Not cool.

[Scott Morgan]

Here's thought number 2:

Maybe FIRST is against the policy of people building their robots at competition. Maybe they are opposed to the idea of shipping a box of parts. Maybe FIRST has a good, legitimate reason.

But you know what? It just doesn't matter. If this was the policy, we should have been told AT KICKOFF about such practices. Thats my take. CHanges of this magnitude cannot happen.
It's like a company, deisigning a product. The product is on schedule, and is set to be finished on time. Then, The customer calls and says that no computers should be used for the remainder of the project, but the deadline is still the same. The designer does not finish on time, and is subsequently given a lower pay rate than they should have for missing their deadline.

Not cool.

I agree, if First is going to make a rule change of this nature, then they should do it at the beginning of next season, so we know in advance what we can, and cannot do at competition

[akshar]

Hi Guys just a thought here...

The rule states that non FIRST approved machine shops are not allowed on site. It seems to me that some of the energy put into ranting could be put to use investigating how to get your mobile machine shops "FIRST approved" Has anyone who uses a mobile machine shop investigated this avenue?

Quitting when faced with adversity is not the answer. We have to figure out a solution within the constrainsts applied.

RAZ

i was just wandering around the Q and A and came upon this post:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=5968&highlight=mobile
question was posted at 330pm yesterday. and there is no answer.

[David Brinza]

While I in no way advocate (and have been vocal in my dissatisfaction earlier in this thread) this rule, instead of bashing FIRST, why not work towards a solution? While FIRST typically lacks the transparency and accountability we want any organization to have, I doubt that they do not hear our reactions. This is quite obvious, by the reaction of FIRST and Autodesk to reinstate the regional AVA, and FIRST attempting (albeit too late for many teams) to correct the scheduling algorithm.
Perhaps we should start an ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction (say a petition?) similar to the one created after the announcement that there wasn't a regional AVA.
Regardless of the next course of action, getting steamed and angry will benefit nobody. And coming from me, that has to mean something.
One form of ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction is a protest:

Imagine that all teams agree to not move their robots in their first match in the qualification rounds at this week's regional. (For teams who cannot complete modifications or make repairs in their pits for lack of available tools, sitting still on the field might be their only play anyhow.) The reaction in the stands will be something that FIRST will certainly notice.

Of course, this is an extreme reaction, but others in this thread have made it clear that FIRST "powers-that-be" need a wake-up call. This sort of protest might get their attention...

[Nuttyman54]

One form of ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction is a protest:

Imagine that all teams agree to not move their robots in their first match in the qualification rounds at this week's regional. (For teams who cannot complete modifications or make repairs in their pits for lack of available tools, sitting still on the field might be their only play anyhow.) The reaction in the stands will be something that FIRST will certainly notice.

Of course, this is an extreme reaction, but others in this thread have made it clear that FIRST "powers-that-be" need a wake-up call. This sort of protest might get their attention...

While it would be powerful, it's completely unnecessary at this stage. FIRST has not had time to respond yet. They patrol CD, and I'm sure they're aware of the upset. If they respond, and still refuse to give us a clear and logical answer, then we can proceed to more forceful measures, such as an official petition. Frankly, I don't think it will get that far out of hand, and I don't think that ruining 7 regionals is a good way to go about this. The show must go on.

The real evidence will not be in how many robots sit there in protest, but in how many robots sit there (or go MIA) due to long lines at the machine shop.

[indieFan]

*sighs* I just got finished reading/scanning this entire thread after an entire day of helping set up the field at the Los Angeles Regional. The discontent shown in this thread is very disheartening.

While at the set up, I asked our regional director why this rule was put into place. I wanted to know why something that was going to significantly affect teams was created. I wanted the answer, not speculation. I was given an answer that nobody here has spoken about, and I will try to remember to ask the RD tomorrow if I can post it.

However, during my discussion with him, I brought up this thread which already had 3 pages in it and all of our concerns. The responded by saying that he wants me to talk to Paul Gidonis (sp?) and ask him about this rule. The RD stated that I would get an answer of "I'll have to talk to so-and-so", but he also stated that it would get this into the back of Paul's mind. And, he felt it far more important for me to talk with Paul since I have been mentoring teams since 2001 and understand the consequences of such a rule.

*****

Paul said that he knows about things going on behind the scenes that most of us don't know. How many of those posting in this thread know what goes on behind the scenes of even the most basic things that are required for a regional, such as setting up the field or finding judges or securing a venue? Having been on the regional committee for two years now, I'm slowly learning what's required behind the scenes. And, I'm sure that the majority of you would be significantly shocked at everything that happens to ensure the regional works. Until you've been in a position of doing these tasks, try to refrain from indicting FIRST for their actions.

Someone posted that they figured that they would be given the usual response of "I'll have my intern call you" (or something like that) if he called about his complaints. FIRST is highly understaffed (according to a former RD) with a group of people dedicated to helping you. I believe I was told that there are only 38 people working full time at FIRST trying to run 35 regionals and the championship. (38/35 = 1.xxx) They have barely over one person that could be dedicated to a regional if they chose to do it that way. (Someone feel free to correct the number of people working full time at FIRST, if you know for sure.)

I seem to have lost where I was headed in this section. Or, perhaps my point is to make sure you know what goes on before you speak ill of it.

*****

That's enough for now,
indieFan
Judge Coordinator/Judge Assistant - Los Angeles Regional
Robot Inspector - San Jose Regional
Field Supervisor - San Diego Regional
Mentor for Team 1070
AND
Full time employee of Raytheon

[Mike Schroeder]

I read most of the thread, and here is my take on it


Is it fair, No
I agree with everyone who says this is a bad thing, but to play devils advocate, what if........*start waynes world flashback noise*


Team 1337 shows up for NJ, week one, competes through out competition, in Quarterfinal 1 match 2 1337 take some damage to a component of their ramp, a peice of metal need to be cut to fix it, all is done via time out, and 1337's wins their next match and eventually the whole regional.

Team 1923 competed against 1337 that match saw they were broken, and then fixed didnt think anything of it, and ship their robot to Vegas for their second regional, 1923 competes throughout seeding round and in qt1m1 their ramp breaks but that venue doesn't allow the use of bandsaws to cut stuff..... 1923 would be pretty upset about this.




while i find it weird doing this after week one events as most people would most likely agree, i think that if this is the case, maybe to level the playing field at all events. then i could live with this, if this is just a case of CYA then well FIRST needs to rethink its a) time frame and b) its definition of common sense. i.e. one machine shop for 60 teams.....

[akshar]

i was just curious....did anyone get hurt using a tool in a team's mobile machine shop...aka 'non FIRST machine shop' ? during week one? maybe this is the reason for the ruling?

i say we wait for FIRST to speak on this. before taking drastic actions like not moving during the first qualifying match.

[mtaman02]

I don't think not moving your robots in the 1st match will prove anything. While this is a serious rule FIRST has put into affect the only wise thing to do is to contact FIRST and find out why such rule was created. By Not moving your robots you will only delay the competition and the volunteers who have worked long and hard to set the event up would be the ones to get punished. Contact FIRST through their oh so wonderful Q&A forum and see if you can drag out a reason. It's quite obvious that they did not go into detail on what can and cannot be brought to the event and only listed a few tools to start. Contact FIRST and get answers, why give the event & your team and many others bad publicity by putting on a show by not moving a robot. I would rather talk to FIRST about this and find out their intentions (if any) behind this and see if an agreement can be made with some boundaries in place. We all know that this rule was made too late into the season and with any rule being made there has to be a reason behind it. It could be Insurance purposes, Safety Issues, Parking Issues or some blind mans dream into making the life of FIRSTsters that much harder. You won't know till you ask!

[JohnBoucher]

How many of you truly believe FIRST will leave you without a way to fix your robot? I don't, but I wish they communicated the "why" when they make a ruling like this.

[BobC]

How many of you truly believe FIRST will leave you without a way to fix your robot? I don't, but I wish they communicated the "why" when they make a ruling like this.

John,
Just think if you need something drilled or cut at UTC. I heard the machine shop is going to be at P and W in East Hartford. How long is that going to take on Saturday with the parade going on.

[David Brinza]

*sighs* I just got finished reading/scanning this entire thread after an entire day of helping set up the field at the Los Angeles Regional. The discontent shown in this thread is very disheartening.

While at the set up, I asked our regional director why this rule was put into place. I wanted to know why something that was going to significantly affect teams was created. I wanted the answer, not speculation. I was given an answer that nobody here has spoken about, and I will try to remember to ask the RD tomorrow if I can post it.

<snip>
*****

Paul said that he knows about things going on behind the scenes that most of us don't know. How many of those posting in this thread know what goes on behind the scenes of even the most basic things that are required for a regional, such as setting up the field or finding judges or securing a venue? Having been on the regional committee for two years now, I'm slowly learning what's required behind the scenes. And, I'm sure that the majority of you would be significantly shocked at everything that happens to ensure the regional works. Until you've been in a position of doing these tasks, try to refrain from indicting FIRST for their actions.

<snip>
*****

OK, I first want to say that my suggestion for a "no moving robot" protest is WAY out-of-bounds. I don't think OUR team would ever encourage or support this and I wouldn't suspect other teams would pass on the thrill of competition to make a statement - especially if FIRST's hand are tied...

I don't believe that FIRST would do this just to create inconvenience for the teams, there's got to be some mighty powerful force involved to do this at this time. Maybe an accident or near-miss, or paranoid venue management has driven FIRST to make an abrupt, sweeping call that has hit some teams pretty hard.

Maybe it's worth looking at this from the point of view of teams that don't plan to use drill presses or bandsaws in their pits. Maybe their robot design is such that hacksaw cuts and hand-drilled holes are all that they ever would need for even fairly substantial repairs. Maybe the rookie teams, or underfunded teams, see the teams that bring along what they consider to be a machine shop as extravagance. These teams might feel intimidated to ask to use some other teams' power tools in the other teams' workspace.

Our team has brought drill press, bandsaw, power sander, pneumatic tools (rivet guns, nibblers), etc. to many competitions. We have welcomed teams to use these - if they ask AND if we aren't scrambling to get a repair completed before our next match. I never felt very comfortable having an unknown student walk into the pit and have to decide whether the task is something that I'm really certain they could accomplish themselves - safely. I've had to ask a couple of kids to clamp the part securely in a vice before drilling (big drill bit + thin material + no vice nor clamp = laceration). To have that sort of injury occur in our pit would be devastating to both teams involved - and could lead to further problems if a parent or mentor decides that gross negligence led to the accident.

Most of our structural material in our robot is aluminum angle, channel or bar. A hacksaw can make a clean cut, although more patience is required to make the cut than if it were done with the bandsaw. A lot of our drilling can be (and is) done by hand. If the drill press was used only when precision is required, we'd probably not use it as often as we do (out of convenience).

Perhaps FIRST could establish "quick-cut or drill" service in or near the approved machine shop with power tools provided by the teams. It may be that the cutting or drilling is done only by an approved person in the shop. (I could imagine FIRST Safety evaluating a few volunteers to support this service). It's possible that by the time we're late in the FIRST season, this won't be the disaster that some of us (including me!) envision.

Play on! Life is too short to be angry about things you cannot control and FIRST competitions should remain a "happy zone" for all the participants and spectators.

[BobC]

Both drill presses and handheld power drills can be safe or unsafe, depending on how they are used. Perhaps they have another reason for the new rule?

Guns also can be safe or unsafe depending on how they are used. Just a point almost anything you use can be safe or unsafe depending on how it used.

[meaubry]

I usually only post 1 reply per thread - but in light of the controversy here I apologize -
I have to say that it is unfortunate that update #16 included the elimination of some of the equipment that has been okay to bring and use in the pits in previous years events.

This has obviously upset many people, including pretty influential folks that have voluntarily provided the backbone, heart, and soul in support of the FIRST experience.

I am sure, that FIRST will address the issue - but, in the meantime - we need to be careful with how we react.

I too am upset and do not agree with the rule change in update 16, and I will continue to try and think of ways to show my unhappiness to FIRST in ways that won't disrupt the FIRST experience for ANY of the other event participants. They deserve to enjoy ONLY the very best experience possible.

Post signs in your pits, wear buttons, write here on our website, start a petition, put a sign on your robot, have a moment of silence, document your displeasure to the rule - whatever...

Whatever you do - keep in mind the impact you may have on everyone attending the event, and don't ruin their experience.

Mike Aubry
Chief Delphi

[Taylor]

We're only a third-year team, and we do not have a mobile drill press or band saw or pretty much anything outside a 7/16" wrench and phillips-head screwdriver. When designing our robot, we made it such that we would do minimal machining at the competition. If the robot isn't robust enough to withstand normal gameplay, then it's not ready to compete. If some features do malfunction, we have 25 pounds worth of replacement parts. We designed it so anything we would have to change is easy to disassemble and replace.
If a team has two matches 15 minutes apart, there is no way they'd have enough time to machine new parts for the bot.
We had no way of knowing about Update 16 when we built this into our plans; we've just had the experience of having a less-than-spectacular bot and missing matches due to lengthy repairs. We knew we didn't want that to happen again.
Thus, the no-machine-shop part of Update 16 likely won't affect us much because of our foresight in our design.
That being said, I don't disagree with anything that's been stated earlier in this thread. But based on lessons learned from only two years of competition, we know better than to bring in an unfinished bot or one that will need lots of machine work to perform.
I don't think rule changes possibly affecting the outcome of matches should be made after the start of competition season. In my eyes, the biggest problem with this update is its timing.

[artdutra04]

After thinking this rule over for the past two days, my biggest concern over it is that they abruptly told us this right now. If this was a rule that was released on January 6th in the rule book, then I'm not sure if I would be as upset over it.

The fact is that although there are a lot of teams who do build their robots using nothing but a hacksaw and a hand drill, there are also a lot more teams who build their robot using lathes, milling machines, and CNC parts. If we knew this rule was going to be made, then it seems like teaching our students CNC/Inventor wouldn't be worth it, if all they can use to repair their robot is a hack saw.

The one thing I am really going to miss (at least until I see a clarification from FIRST) about this rule is the gracious professionalism of teams helping other teams. Odds are at a regional competition, we may bring our drill press and band saw, but another team may bring this tool, and another team that tool. You meet a lot of new people in the pits going around looking to find a certain tool, and it's a great way to spread gracious professionalism.

I'm not going to say that gracious professionalism if going to be diminished, but not being able to bring tools to share with other teams is certainly going to cut back on the number of teams asking other teams for help.

[Justin]

Post signs in your pits, wear buttons, write here on our website, start a petition, put a sign on your robot, have a moment of silence, document your displeasure to the rule - whatever...

NICE! I love it imagine if every team at a regional showed up with a sticker on their robot very simple but very visible the red circle with the line through "Update 16". Now that would be simple and unique not only will the FIRST field staff notice this but the spectators, judges, and Safety Judges. Also Judges in the pit are apt to notice the stickers and ask what they are about at which point teams should have a clear and concise argument stating their opposition to the rule. I imagine this would get you heard and the Judges should respect your views as long as you have a well put together argument, if they don't and they penalize you for it shame on them and shame on FIRST.

-Justin

[RoboMom]

NICE! I love it imagine if every team at a regional showed up with a sticker on their robot very simple but very visible the red circle with the line through "Update 16". Now that would be simple and unique not only will the FIRST field staff notice this but the spectators, judges, and Safety Judges. Also Judges in the pit are apt to notice the stickers and ask what they are about at which point teams should have a clear and concise argument stating their opposition to the rule. I imagine this would get you heard and the Judges should respect your views as long as you have a well put together argument, if they don't and they penalize you for it shame on them and shame on FIRST.

-Justin

In the pits at the regionals, you will only have a few minutes to sell your team, your robot, your unique feature, what FIRST means to you and your team-wherever your passions are. The judges then have a whole lot of decisions to make in a short amount of time. There are many more deserving teams than awards.
Of course the judges will respect your view. But it is up to the students on your team to decide what they spend these precious minutes on.

[Bob Steele]

I don't have the clout or abilities that some of the individuals that have posted here but I feel it necessary to make two statements regarding new rules of FIRST.

1. Few have commented about the incredibly short-sighted (no pun intended) new rule about having to bring 4 sets of safety glasses to get registered. By the time registration was going on I had to actually take the safety glasses off 3 members of my team and bring them over (along with the pair I was wearing.).. in order to register my team... Now how does this make a difference..??? Somehow someone thinks that having 4 pairs of safety glasses is enough? or important? Or it is safer to show them than to wear them?

I also remember being delayed at a FIRST competition my first year (a few ago) because I didn't have a paper clip for my waiver forms.... this individual would not allow us to register until I found a paper clip and remove the staple that held them together.....

I only mention these things because sometimes rules are NOT thought out properly and people (in good faith ... presumably) make these rules ......


2. At the Pacific Northwest Regional .. our team had a small green battery operated metal cutting bandsaw in our pit. I helped at least 5 other teams repair damage to their robots with this saw and alot of help from my team and others... it got them back on the field.. It was operated safely in every instance.....I allowed many other teams to use it ... under supervision... and in 2 cases I suggested a safe way to cut something rather than allowing another mentor to use it unsafely....

I don't like the way FIRST has moved... but I only need to remind everyone about a situation several years ago with the requirement for personal information checks for all mentors/coaches/volunteers.... with the proper counsel from FIRST mentors and coaches I believe that FIRST made the correct decision to allow schools to do this on their own...

We shall see if FIRST listens to those of us who work for free...and work because we know that we are ALL at risk of liability...
You cannot make a robot without risk... no matter where you do it...

If we want FIRST to be risk free let's just give each team a pre-made robot... preferably a small one... that has components that can be fitted together easily and safely with little risk of damage to the mechanics or students...

oops wait a minute.. we already have that...

It's called FIRST LEGO LEAGUE....

I prefer the big leagues....

[Dan Petrovic]

I don't mean to be rude, or inappropriate, or offensive but...

This is like the Boy Scouts of America telling everyone that the boys can't use pocket knives.

[BiTurboS4]

One form of ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction is a protest:

Imagine that all teams agree to not move their robots in their first match in the qualification rounds at this week's regional. (For teams who cannot complete modifications or make repairs in their pits for lack of available tools, sitting still on the field might be their only play anyhow.) The reaction in the stands will be something that FIRST will certainly notice.

Of course, this is an extreme reaction, but others in this thread have made it clear that FIRST "powers-that-be" need a wake-up call. This sort of protest might get their attention...

Seems kinda a waste to pay money to goto a regional to sit out a round, but thats just my 2 cents. Also, that is not the first time Paul has been asked to put away those tools.

[Mister_Juggles]

I honestly have no problem with the changes to what we can/cannot bring into the pits with us. I realize that many teams have used bandsaws, drill presses, etc. in the pits without issue, but I feel that it is an unnecessary hazard to do so.

Think about it: Let's say one thousand people at a regional. There are 50 10ft x 10ft areas, all adjacent to other similar areas and directly across from even more of them. There are people EVERYWHERE. They are constantly moving, occupied with a large screen a hundred yards away, full of adrenaline and excitement. Is it really a good idea to bring and use fairly large mechanical equipment designed to cut things, grind things, and make holes in things very very fast?

I just feel that teams should be, and are, able to make any adjustments or repairs with smaller, safer equipment tat doesn't take up nearly as much space. I know that 422 never takes anything larger than a drill to regionals, and we have completely revamped and repaired robots in mid competition without any major issues.

I know that many people who have posted already know a great deal more than I do, and see the situation differently, but this what I see in it. I think we can and should just go with it. FIRST likes to make competing harder and harder for us teams, and we should be used to this kind of thing by now.

Also, to quote Dave from the VCU regional this year, "We like to mess with peoples' minds." ;)

[cziggy343]

i did not read all of the replies to the initial message that was sent to see if there was an idea similar to this one, but one of our mentors came up with the idea that a section of the pit should be roped off for use of heavy equipment (band saw, drill press, etc.) so that there would still be some place to work with big machinery. because at some points in time, hand-held tools are much more dangerous than drill press, band saw, etc.

i can completly understand why they want the safety, but in all seriousness, the teams need a place to work with more than just handtools.

so to make all of the lawyers out there happy, just do that: rope off a section to where teams still have a place to work.

if people like that idea, i encourage lots of people to take it and email it to first, because team 343 will.

[sanddrag]

i did not read all of the replies to the initial message that was sent to see if there was an idea similar to this one, but one of our mentors came up with the idea that a section of the pit should be roped off for use of heavy equipment (band saw, drill press, etc.) so that there would still be some place to work with big machinery. because at some points in time, hand-held tools are much more dangerous than drill press, band saw, etc.

i can completly understand why they want the safety, but in all seriousness, the teams need a place to work with more than just handtools.

so to make all of the lawyers out there happy, just do that: rope off a section to where teams still have a place to work.

if people like that idea, i encourage lots of people to take it and email it to first, because team 343 will.

We are one step ahead of you. I'm proud to announce that the crew at the LA regional took all this under consideration and has allowed teams to use these tools in a designated location, outside of the pits, under adult supervision, and under strict safety rules and careful operation. We feel this is a more than adequate solution for the time being, and I find that many teams enjoy the extra space to operate the larger tools.

[Wayne Doenges]

We are one step ahead of you. I'm proud to announce that the crew at the LA regional took all this under consideration and has allowed teams to use these tools in a designated location, outside of the pits, under adult supervision, and under strict safety rules and careful operation. We feel this is a more than adequate solution for the time being, and I find that many teams enjoy the extra space to operate the larger tools.
This is what I have been hoping to see. Everyone complained about Update #16 but no one offered a solution to the problem. I would like to see all regionals adopt this centralized shop. Hear that Boliermaker ;)
Just make sure the adult supervisor knows how to operate the tools.
GJ :)

[Bill Baedke]

I have been a mentor on Team 217, the Thunderchickens, since 1999, as a retired engineer, and a machinist. As Paul Copioli mentioned we bring machine tools to the events and always help other teams. FIRST events used to offer a designated location where it was safe to grind--good idea, but they no longer seem to do this except for a few local exceptions. Toronto, last year, requested that volunteers set up an on-site machine shop. With about 6 or 7 people staffing it we were able to keep up--no one waited more than 5 minutes for their job to be started. It was a great success and I will be doing it again this year.

I have talked to people in charge at various competitions over the past several years about ways to improve the supply of machine shop facilities. They don't seem to be interested (to give them the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe they think there is a problem).

I talked to Dennis Howland, a FIRST Official, last year at the Championship and sent him the following letter in January. The letter was also sent to Bill Miller, who I believe is the head of FIRST, that same month. No one from FIRST has ever contacted me to see if anything I talked about has merit. They don't appear to be interested. I don't think they get the idea that FIRST is for the students (not that we don't have fun too), and that students learn from doing and seeing things being done, not from being told things can't be done.
Bill Baedke, Team 217

Letter to Dennis Howland and Bill Miller (sent Jan 07):
I have been involved with our team 217 since 1999 and I have worked in the on-site workshops at several regionals and championships. When Comau Pico brought their trailers, in the beginning, they brought machinists, then, when they could not afford it, they asked for volunteers to work in their trailers. At the Toronto Regional, I worked in the all volunteer machine shop, so I think I have a range of experiences on the subject.

I believe we can improve the on-site machine shop service at the Championship with the help of more volunteers. As I see it there is a far greater need for machine shop work than is being provided. With hundreds of teams at Atlanta, it is not enough to have 5 or 6 people to help the teams with machine shop service. My observations over the years show that the need for work is very high on Thursday and Friday, then it tapers off on Saturday. Last year I spent time at the machine shop desk on both Thursday and Friday just observing. This is what I saw:
The Problem
People come and want a hole drilled, a piece cut off or some other small thing done, but they don't have the tools. They ask how long it will take and are told it will be an hour or two (or more). They leave very disappointed and go to find an alternate solution. After all, they don't want to wait. This means that the number of jobs done by the shop does not come close to the demand. When we had the Comau Pico trailers there, we had as many as 15 or so workers and we still could not keep up those two days.
I am not saying that the NASA people did not do a good job, just that we need more. As you know, I offered to help the NASA people do work, but was told that I was not allowed.

Possible Solutions
Try to get the Comau Pico people to bring their trailers again and get volunteers to work with them.
Try to find other companies that have portable machine shops to bring their tools/trailers.
Try to get NASA to allow volunteers to work in their trailer. They could use more machinists.
Many teams bring small lathes, drill presses, milling machines etc. and are more than willing to help other teams make/modify parts. The problem is in that large pit area how is a team needing work going to find the team that has a tool they need?
Team Tools (Expansion of Item #4)
How can we utilize the resources already at the Competitions (regionals and championships)?

A. Have a list available at the Machine Shop of all the teams that are willing to help other teams, and what type of machines they have. Not the best solution, in my opinion, but would be an improvement.

B. Ask the teams that are willing to help make parts to bring their machines to the machine shop area so they can become part of the machine shop. This way, jobs can be given to the proper machine/machinist according to size, degree of difficulty etc.
This solution solves another problem. Our team usually can bring more tools than we can fit in our pit area, so we have to limit what we bring. If we had a separate place to put them, then we could have more available to help others. This is what we did in Toronto last year. The leader organized a machine shop area with electricity where all the volunteers brought their tools. With about 6 people working, and allowing some of the customers to do their own work on our machines, we were able to handle about 60 teams quite well, so that most people were serviced immediately--no waiting. Extrapolating that number means we need about 25 people at the Championship.
I hope that you will come up with a solution to the problem of too much demand and not enough supply. It was very sad for me to see the disappointment on the students faces when told it would be 3 hours before their 5 minute job would be started. I felt much better when I worked in Toronto and we could do that 5 minute job in 5 minutes and see the delight on their faces when they knew they would get their robot running soon.

An added plus of having more than enough supply means that we can spend some time helping the students solve a problem, help them with the engineering or suggest a better way to make the part so it is stronger, lighter etc.

Thanks,
Bill Baedke, Team 217
76533 McKay
Romeo, MI 48065

586 752 3241 home
586 255 0025 cell

[BiTurboS4]

Dennis Howland is the Volunteer Resources Manager and Bill Miller is the Director of FRC, and Bill would be the one to deal with that situation. You shouldn't be put off due to a lack of response, both of these gentlemen get an extraordinary amount of email from many different people. Sadly, mailing a letter would probably gain attention much quicker.

[cziggy343]

well, im glad to see that since so many people are mad about it, that somebody is doing something. if we want it to b changed, then we have to do something.

[KTorak]

This morning, at GLR, they announced that we could use grinders, drill presses, and bandsaws as long as they did not create sparks.

[Not2B]

I have to say - the match pairings and sorting was much better at GLR than last week.

Thanks!!!

[Tim Delles]

I must say that this week at FLR the match pairings were not any better.

229 played against 1126 4 times and with them once.
229 and 1930 play 191, 395, 1551 (all as an alliance) twice tommorow... Yes its exactly the same alliance.

I know that other teams competiting have played 5 or 6 matches with or against the same people here. Now i understand that FLR is small (35 teams). But still you should not be playing a single team more than 3 times at most. Let alone playing the exact same alliance twice.

[jgannon]

Match pairing was not much better at Pittsburgh, either. In addition to seeing the same opponents several times, we were also seeing the same partners several times. In addition, I know that several other teams were having issues with matches being very close together. At least one team today had to immediately go on deck after finishing a match. 7 minutes is not enough time between matches. I understand that the algorithm is trying to optimize for several constraints, but the only one that it seems to be hitting consistently is pairing a low, mid, and high number team. I'm still not sure that this is what we want as customers. It's fun to see some balance, but I also like to occasionally see good pairings. As this algorithm stands, none of the Delphi teams (45-48?) or the UTC teams (173-177?) will ever get to partner up in quals. Some otherwise spectacular pairings (70/71, 111/118, 217/229, 1503/1680 come immediately to mind, but I'm sure there are dozens more) just won't happen. Personally, I'd like to play with some rookies instead of against them all the time. Does anybody think this is the way match pairings ought to be?

[jagman2882]

we had the same exact alliance for our first 3 matches....us(1126), 316, and 1728.....small regional or not that is rediculous!!!

[sanddrag]

Another update from LA. To me, the match pairings seem mostly fixed, and back to good ol times, as far as I can tell.

[Cory]

Another update from LA. To me, the match pairings seem mostly fixed, and back to good ol times, as far as I can tell.

Sort of... we were against 188 twice in a row, and we'll be with the same team twice in a row tomorrow.

[sanddrag]

Sort of... we were against 188 twice in a row, and we'll be with the same team twice in a row tomorrow.alright. I didn't take notice, so, Cory knows better than I...

[Sean Schuff]

I'm not normally one to complain but lately it seems that FIRST is giving all of us more reasons to do just that. My hope is that this latest misstep leads FIRST to come up with a systemic solution that will begin to address the underlying issues that Paul and others have referenced in this thread.

I hate to admit it but I did not read Update 16 until I was told about it at the Wisconsin Regional on Thursday. We were one of only a handful of teams who had a "machine shop" (band saw, drill press, sander/grinder) in our pits. The official machine shop was off site (minimum 30+ minutes for a part?? C'mon!) and we were doing our own work as well as work for other teams. I would venture to guess that we are much like the other teams who have simple machining capabilities in that we do more work for other teams than for our own. That is after all the spirit of FIRST, isn't it? Out of 52 teams at the event 22 were rookies and another 11 were only in their second year. This was definitely a regional heavily weighted by new teams. The ability to help these teams definitely contributed to their success. I can't imagine how things would have turned out had we not been able to lend them a hand. We all know that time is of the essence at these events and when literally seconds matter, many times it is critical to have the right tool for the job and sometimes that tool is a power tool.

At the Wisconsin Regional we were originally shut down on Thursday around mid-day. I was told about the update and spoke to two of the safety advisors, one in his first year with FIRST, the other in his second - neither had been on a team. They listened to my concerns and told me they would look into it. Clearly they knew of the rule but had no idea why it had been implemented. Later in the day I spoke with one of the event coordinators and was told there was a clarification to the rule that morning and we COULD use our machines.

Friday morning arrived and when our pit crew and mentors arrived at our pits, they were surprised (read as "quite concerned") to see five safety advisors standing by our pits. Once again we were shut down. They told our team FIRST had clarified the rule that morning and had banned the machines once again. Again, I expressed my concerns about the logic of the decision and again, they had no clear explanation as to why. About mid-day I was told we could set our power tools back up again. Huh??!!

My initial concern was over the fact that FIRST had made the decision in the first place with, as others have pointed out, NO explanation. For the life of me I could not come to a logical conclusion as to why. Are bench tools really more dangerous? Don't they trust us to do the right/safe thing? Are we drawing too much current at the venue? Are they doing this in the name of a “level playing field”? I just couldn't see it.

After all the waffling on the rule it was clear to me that the decision was made with little thought as to the consequences and no input from teams. This is the latest in a disturbing trend of decisions and rulings that appear to disregard the value of input from teams. The post-season forums to discuss how things went during the build and competitions are a step in the right direction but they have been hosting those for quite some time. FIRST needs some team representation in the decision making process they are using. Take some of the more outstanding, respected mentors - Copioli, Baker, Hughes, Patton, Olivera, Skierkiewicz, Green, Kanagasabapathy, etc. - and create a sounding board of mentors in the trenches who can provide feedback before these decisions are released to the entire FIRST community.

Our team has already discussed the "why's" of the power tools decision and are already discussing ways to address the problem but without knowing definitively why FIRST made the decision it is difficult for us to come up with details for potential solutions.

I am anxious to hear the explanation.

Sean

p.s. Paul - please reconsider. Or call me when you come up with something new! :)

[Beth Sweet]

I am very glad that FIRST backed down on this at GLR. They modified the rule to say that we may have drill presses and bandsaws, however because of the sparks that they produce, grinders were still out. This was adequate in my estimation and I am glad that FIRST decided to reconsider. Thank you FIRST for being reasonable and listening to us!

[RoboMom]

I called Operations this morning looking for guidance for my overfull email box and was told the GDC is meeting today. I have been told by Operations "to look for the next update." But they did not know when.
sigh...

[KTorak]

I'm thinking Tuesday...as it has been the past 2 weeks. Also similar to Microsoft's Patch Tuesday :-D