Is this fair?

[i like dirt]

Today, Me and my team participated in the 2nd day of the Florida Regional. And a call by the field officials was made, that we and probably you all would not agree with after reading this.
Okay, where to begin. The night before today (the first day of the regional), we were the last one's to get inspected before the Pit. Admin closd for the night. We hadn't played any practice matches all day because we were trying to get the bugs out of our programming code, So we obviously had not gotten inspected during the day. Anyway, at night we had just barely got the weight of our robot down to where it was less than 110 pounds (our maximum). So this morning we had to get two things done to finish inspection.
In the morning we came and got our robot sized perfectly, it fit in the box and we had passed the sizing part of the inspection, Next was the visual and electronics evaluation of the robot. So, one the officials came over to our pit, evaluated us, everything was looking good so he put the sticker on the side of our bot wrote our information on his sheet, and gave us a thumbs up (Notice that he did not sign the sticker, he only put it on).
So later in the afternoon, we go to our last and final match of today. At this point in time, our rank amongst the other team was in the lower 40's because a previous match that we had won. Now, we step onto the field and we are about to start when the head official notices that the sticker is not signed on our robot, (Which we were completely unaware of since the official that had inspected us assured us that the inspection was complete and we were "safe") So he stopped the match before it was going to begin took us onto the field and showed us the problem. So, our mentor, insisted to the referee that why doesn't he tell someone to get the sheet that says whether we passed inspection or not from the person who inspected us. That is all the officials had to do, was look at that sheet, or simply call the person who inspected us. But we were mandated to take our robot to the side of the field, and they told us that a person was coming to verify that we were inspected, then 10 seconds before the match started, another official came and signed it, but the head ref, said that he cannot put you in because they have already declared that the match will begin, (Now, you guys must realize what we must be feeling right now, after knowing that we were ejeted from a match, for something that we had no control over, it was completely and utterly their fault and that because of this our rank has now plummeted to 46) So we went back to our pit, Most of us furious at this point, and at the end of the day, we found the official that had inspected us, and we asked him why. Why all this happened, and why he had not signed the sticker after inspecting us. And this is exactly what he told us, "Yesterday was my first day, I didn't know that we had to sign the stickers", and he also said that the person in charge of him had not told him anything about signing inspection stickers.
So, my question to you, the CD community is, How could FIRST let something like this happen? And also, Why did the referee handle the situation in the manner that he did? I mean, I just think that this is not right, and it should be brought up to the FIRST community. I mean, has FIRST really come to this?
Never in previous years, have I ever criticized the officials or FIRST, but now for the first time, I am realizing that tomorow,(The Final Day of the regional) My team is going to lose, not because of our robot failing, not because of a bad alliance pairing, but because of FIRST.
At this point, I don't know who to blame, or who is truly at fault, I am just craving to know, was this fair, or is this an injustice?

[waialua359]

Sorry to hear about your situation.
I hope it doesnt affect your seeding too much and that you have the same opportunities to make the playoffs.

[wilsonmw04]

No one is to blame. FIRST didn't do this. The Ref didn't do this. The Inspector didn't do this. It was an accident. No one wanted you to miss your match. To make you feel a bit better, Rank means nothing in this game. One of the best scorers at VCU was in the low 40's at the end of the round-robin and went to the QF's.

It's not fair. it's not right, but stuff like this happens. If you don't get picked for finals tomorrow, get in those stands and cheer for those who did. Remember, this is FIRST.

[BoyWithCape195]

I agree the situation that you had to deal with was not a pleasant one at all and I would be very upset if it happened to me, but going to the extent of saying that you will lose because of FIRST is uncalled for. You have matches scheduled on Saturday where you can show your team and your robots ability. While you may not be able to be one of the top eight "picking teams" you can still be easily be picked by any of them. If you go out onto the field tomorrow and you show that you have what it takes to win, there is no reason that you will not be in the elimination rounds.

[i like dirt]

No one is to blame. FIRST didn't do this. The Ref didn't do this. The Inspector didn't do this. It was an accident. No one wanted you to miss your match. To make you feel a bit better, Rank means nothing in this game. One of the best scorers at VCU was in the low 40's at the end of the round-robin and went to the QF's.

It's not fair. it's not right, but stuff like this happens. If you don't get picked for finals tomorrow, get in those stands and cheer for those who did. Remember, this is FIRST.

Yes, I realize what you are saying, but I just can't get past the fact that how did this happen. How did the inspector not get told to do something, how did he "not know". I mean this is FIRST for god sake's. And above all, how can we prevent something like this from happening next year, or even at the championship? If the officials don't know, then who does. I mean for all we know their can be a handful of tams in my regional, who that inspector inspected that day, who are still participating and will participate tomorrow. So how can an issue like this be enforced if the officials, simply "don't know"

[Swampdude]

You were our partner in that match, and we lost because they pulled you off. Basically that simple. I didn't know why, but now that I do, I'm real thrilled too. The inspection process was over the top. I don't blame any of the volenteers. They were doing what was asked of them. I just wish these kinds of things could be avoided, but this whole thing is getting over complicated. I thought our bot was in the best possible condition in our history to go thru inspection. I thought we would zip thru at record pace. But after an hour went by and we were still going, I started to get frustrated. It just seems like that whole process should be simpler. I'm sorry you guys had to go thru that. I hope you can overlook it, and try and see the bright side of FIRST. We put a lot of hard work into our teams and bots. It all culminates at your competition, and you have high expectations. Then these silly things ruin it for us. All we can do is make the best of it, or all that work was in vein.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I'm sorry that this happened to you.

Is it fair? No, but life seldom is fair.

Blaming FIRST or the officials is not the answer though. You have the oppertunity here to show that no matter what they throw at you, you will prevail (true first spirit). Show them what teamwork and FIRST is about. If I were you, I'd go to that inspector and tell him it's all OK (I'll bet he feels worse about this than you do).

Mistakes happen. It's how we react to them and what we learn from them that shows what type of people we are.

[wilsonmw04]

He's a rookie inspector, Cut him a break. I know alot of the rookie teams were helped out alot this year. Do the same thing for the rookie Volunteers as well.

[kevin.li.rit]

You were our partner in that match, and we lost because they pulled you off. Basically that simple. I didn't know why, but now that I do, I'm real thrilled too. The inspection process was over the top. I don't blame any of the volenteers. They were doing what was asked of them. I just wish these kinds of things could be avoided, but this whole thing is getting over complicated. I thought our bot was in the best possible condition in our history to go thru inspection. I thought we would zip thru at record pace. But after an hour went by and we were still going, I started to get frustrated. It just seems like that whole process should be simpler. I'm sorry you guys had to go thru that. I hope you can overlook it, and try and see the bright side of FIRST. We put a lot of hard work into our teams and bots. It all culminates at your competition, and you have high expectations. Then these silly things ruin it for us. All we can do is make the best of it, or all that work was in vein.

Perhaps you can gather all 6 teams in that match and plead for a Rematch of that match?

[waialua359]

You were our partner in that match, and we lost because they pulled you off. Basically that simple. I didn't know why, but now that I do, I'm real thrilled too. The inspection process was over the top. I don't blame any of the volenteers. They were doing what was asked of them. I just wish these kinds of things could be avoided, but this whole thing is getting over complicated. I thought our bot was in the best possible condition in our history to go thru inspection. I thought we would zip thru at record pace. But after an hour went by and we were still going, I started to get frustrated. It just seems like that whole process should be simpler. I'm sorry you guys had to go thru that. I hope you can overlook it, and try and see the bright side of FIRST. We put a lot of hard work into our teams and bots. It all culminates at your competition, and you have high expectations. Then these silly things ruin it for us. All we can do is make the best of it, or all that work was in vein.

well said, except its "vain.":D

[Ryan Albright]

Its just unfortunate mistake and i am sorry to hear it happen to you. I am sorry for the teams you were matched with. All you can do is keep your head up and dont let it bother you. It happened and its over. Tommorow is a new day.

[wilsonmw04]

I'm sorry that this happened to you.

Is it fair? No, but life seldom is fair.

Blaming FIRST or the officials is not the answer though. You have the oppertunity here to show that no matter what they throw at you, you will prevail (true first spirit). Show them what teamwork and FIRST is about. If I were you, I'd go to that inspector and tell him it's all OK (I'll bet he feels worse about this than you do).

Mistakes happen. It's how we react to them and what we learn from them that shows what type of people we are.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[triggerhappy336]

I don't see how missing one match is going to make or break your regional. If your a strong bot you'll get picked. With the matching the way it is, I didn't think rank took an almighty weight in the decision.

Course then again this is my first year and FLR has like 35 bots, not 40+

[i like dirt]

He's a rookie inspector, Cut him some him a break. I know alot of the rookie teams were helped out alot this year. Do the same thing for the rookie Volunteers as well.

No, I wasn't even accusing the inspector, It was the person in charge of him that had not told him anything about signing the stickers. In the end though, we explained to him though that it really wasn't his fault, because we really saw that he felt bad about and we realized that it was not his fault that he did not know.

[meaubry]

Let this be a lesson to all - make sure that your sticker is signed.

It is unfortunate that it happened, but if you don't mind - let's turn this around and use it to help the other teams.

This way they won't go through the same situation, and feel as bad as your team does.

Mike

[hipsterjr]

It doesnt matter, FIRST is infallable. Our whole allience was getting a "no signal" message and lost control at short times, but the offical just waved us off when confronted. Even if it isn't fair, you just have to move onto the next match. And I wouldn't call 40 to 46 an exessive drop.

[waialua359]

these things happen and no one wished that it did.
It can happen to all of us.
For example, NJ had problems where they had to restart our finals match 3 times in a row! Team 25 was stuck on the rack and was immobolized. But, they restarted the match. We also scored during autonomous in the SF match, a rare occurence. Guess what? Restart again because the ref forgot to remove the opponents one that didnt score which did after the period started. Luckily we won anyways.
The worst is we have to spend over 25k per trip just to attend a regional, but hey, cant help that we live overseas........
Good luck to you folks and I hope it all works out.:D

[Assassin Shadow]

Ok, let me start at square one...

First off, from what I read in your post, you're not a rookie team. Therefore you should have known that the sticker needed to be signed (the same as every other year), so you truly have no one to blame except yourselves.

Secondly...

To blame FIRST as a group and then to plead to them is contradictory. Remember that FIRST is not just the volunteers, refs, judges, and various others that make it possible for this competition to exist. It also includes the assorted teams and thier mentors, because when it comes right down to it, all of us are volunteers and this massive world-wide competition depends on all of us working together in that spirit of "gracious professionalism" that Woodie Flowers is always talking about.

Third...

Placing blame in the first place...
hmmmm.......
gracious professionalism.....
hmmmm.......

ok, I'll leave that one be...
I think that you can figure that one out yourself...

Fourth...

Always remember that tomorrow is another day. Even if you aren't one of the seed teams, you could still be picked as an alliance partner. You just have to show that your robot is dependable and that your drive team is capable.

That means that instead of complaining, you need find a "creative solution to the problem" (hey look! another Woodie Flowers quote!).

If it's too late to fix the problem, then there's nothing you can do anyway! So move on!

And finally Fifth...

To answer your question (the title of this thread)...

Yep...it's fair...utterly and completly fair...

The ref's call is final...the head ref's call is just short of holy writ...

That's how it works in FIRST, but you should know that already because you're not a rookie team.

But to end on a happy note...always remember that you're never the only one with problems, you were simply removed from one match (and that problem was rectified), some teams missed several matches or made it to the match only to have thier robot sit completly still...

So you're not alone, we all deal with it, so suck it up!

[whytheheckme]

Our whole allience was getting a "no signal" message and lost control at short times, but the offical just waved us off when confronted.

Yeah... Same thing happened to us (my previous team) at a regional last year (Chesapeake, I think..) During the match, we lost our radio, and 5 seconds later, one of our alliances lost their radio. I immediately called the IFI guy over who was standing on the side of the field, and he looked at it, I made him aware of the situation, and shouted for a rematch. After the match, I talked to the IFI guy and the head ref, and after 10 minutes of a VERY heated discussion, it was ruled that they were two separate problems that were both of fault of the robot, and the score stood. We only lost by a few points, even though 2 of our bots were out for about half the game. Unfortunately for my team, this was our only loss, caused us to drop from 1 to 3, which caused us to not get our first pick, who we wound up losing to in the finals. But you know what? This is FIRST. Sure, I felt badly and perhaps "ripped off" afterward, but I had no hard feelings. Soon I was over it, and all in all was very happy with the event. It really wasn't anyone's fault, the two robots failed simultaneously, due to an unknown fault. Putting myself in the other alliances shoes, had the problems been due to physical problems on both of our robots, I would feel "ripped off" if they let us replay the match. The same type of thing applies here. Had your robot *not* actually passed inspection, the reason why your sticker wasn't signed, I would feel "ripped off" if I was the other alliance because they let an illegal robot play. Even though your robot *did* pass inspection, the series of event occurred in which it may have led to questioning of this fact. It is what it is, through no fault of anyone.

That was a really long, probably unnecessary story.

Jacob

--Remember, good posts deserve good rep!

[Lil' Lavery]

A single loss, a single match, or your ranking really don't make or break a regional. 45 was ranked 37th of 45 teams at St. Louis, with a 3-6 record. They were then picked 2nd, and went on to win the regional.
As pointed out a couple time already, you're ranked ahead of 233 at the moment, who's arm was essentially destroying itself earlier.

This is just a little issue in a single match. A volunteer made a mistake, and a problem happened. There is no guarantee you would have won the match even with you on the field (and for anyone to say so is insulting the other alliance). It's unfortunate to hear that happened, but it did. How you react to problems is the important part.

It's also unfortunate to hear the inspection woes at UCF. For most teams, inspection was relatively fast at VCU. The longest part for 116 was probably when the inspector actually took a break to take some pictures of our robot (the absolute coolest moment I have ever experience in FIRST, nothing could have made me more proud of my machine than an inspector stopping to take pictures). Luckily for us, we passed the first try (we had an issue with a single bolt on the machine, which we fixed while being inspected). Very few teams missed matches due to inspection, and the couple who did managed for enough other teams to pitch in and help them pass that they made almost all their matches.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Wow, I don't see why you guys are giving Sagar (it was in the AKA?) such tough love. Its easy to say these things sitting behind a computer screen, but I would really like to think that if you were put in this situation, getting kicked from a match for a reason that was in no way your fault, your attitude would be a little bit different. I know I would feel a bit disheartened.

Yes, it isnt right to "blame" FIRST, and yes, ranking doesnt really matter. But, at the end of the day, no matter how they place in the event, this team is going to have a bad taste in their mouth. I have met plenty a team who refuses to go to a certain regional based on how they were treated in the past. Does this make them a poor sport or lacking "gracious professionalism"? No, I don't think so at all. We are all professionals, and part of that is having the ability to chose where to put our resources. I know I certainly wouldnt put down 5 grand to go to an event where I feel I got treated unfairly.

[Nawaid Ladak]

I am personally sorry for what happened to all of you and my teammates negitive response, beleive me, i would love to have a rematch, and the kids on the team would too, but i don't see that possable, unless the refs agree to it.

yes the kids should have known about the sticker being signed, but most of the kids on this team are rookies themselves. the few senior members of this team were either at the lunch-in or taking care of other business (stratgey for the next matches).

My team doesn't have the spirit of FIRST in them, and i hope to bring that back tomorrow, i mean if we were to win all three of our matches, we would move up into the mid to upper 20's, and anyways, the way the inspections were going, most teams can't come up with a alliance paring list with a half day's of true competition.

Im gonna talk to these kids tomorrow and explain to them the meaning of FIRST and why you guys are here (UCF arena)

[dtengineering]

This post may serve as a valuable reminder to all teams that having a tech inspection completed at the last possible moment is challenging and stressful not just for teams, but for inspectors, too. While you are certainly allowed, under the rules, to have your tech inspection completed at any moment prior to your first match, leaving it to the last minute may well increase the chances of a small but important step... such as the signing of the sticker... being missed.

Secondly, it is another valuable reminder of the importance of having robots ready to run when they go in the shipping crate... and having time to practice with them before that. I'm not saying that is something we're always able to do... but then again I don't expect to win regionals against teams that were ready and practicing a week before ship date, either.

Finally, the responses to this post are also a valuable reminder not to get too tied up about a win-loss record, or to be too eager to issue blame. FIRST is run by people, and mistakes will happen.... what is amazing is not that they do happen, but how rarely they happen.

I am sorry you missed your match, but hope you realize that your team may have been able to avoid the situation by showing up with a functioning robot and passing tech early in the day when the inspectors have more time to dot the I's and cross the T's and check out their work with each other.

Good luck on Saturday,

Jason

[Wayne Doenges]

I know this is kind of late to be saying, but it may help in later regionals.
One thing you could have done early is to have your bot weighed and sized. Than if you needed to get some programming done, you could have asked the inspector to come to your pit and finish the inspection while you were programming. I have done this in the last two years I have been inspecting. It saves time and results in a less stressful day for the teams and the inspectors.
As for being low in the standings. So what? Just show the other teams what you got and you might be surprised when your number is called during the finals. Our rookie year we were 42nd out of 50 teams. The second seeded team saw potential in our team and picked us. We took second at Western MI.

[Shadow503]

No one is to blame. FIRST didn't do this. The Ref didn't do this. The Inspector didn't do this. It was an accident. No one wanted you to miss your match. To make you feel a bit better, Rank means nothing in this game. One of the best scorers at VCU was in the low 40's at the end of the round-robin and went to the QF's.

It's not fair. it's not right, but stuff like this happens. If you don't get picked for finals tomorrow, get in those stands and cheer for those who did. Remember, this is FIRST.
Well put. Stuff happens.

I'm sorry it turned out the way it did.

[Crazy Ivan]

When I tuned into the web-cast I saw you guys getting pulled off the field, what happened was a very uncommon occurrence. Every team has probably been in situations that they thought was unfair. Sometimes the situation is just out of your control and you have to move on from it, and not let it get to you. I can tell you from being on the short end of the stick in several of these situations that the best thing to do is not let it bother you and cause more problems for you.

In defense of the Refs: In situations like these, their hands are usually tied by regulations. These regulations are designed to make every single competition refereed in the same way. In most cases it keeps everything fair and eliminates misinterpretation of the rules and personal whims. Sometimes it leads to unfortunate situations. It works far more times than it fails, but we usually only hear about the failures.

[ahecht]

Honestly, the fault here lies entirely with the referee, who didn't show any gracious professionalism. The fact that your inspection sticker wasn't signed could only mean one of two things:

a) Your inspector forgot to sign your sticker before giving it to you
b) Your team stole the sticker from the inspection table

Since he wouldn't let you play, basically the Ref was accusing your team of theft and of violating the spirit of the competition, which is a very serious charge. Something that could DQ a team from competition. The ref should have let you play the match while the inspection sheets were being checked, and then DQed your team from competition afterwards if it turned out you had stolen the sticker.

[wilsonmw04]

Honestly, the fault here lies entirely with the referee, who didn't show any gracious professionalism. The fact that your inspection sticker wasn't signed could only mean one of two things:

a) Your inspector forgot to sign your sticker before giving it to you
b) Your team stole the sticker from the inspection table

Since he wouldn't let you play, basically the Ref was accusing your team of theft and of violating the spirit of the competition, which is a very serious charge. Something that could DQ a team from competition. The ref should have let you play the match while the inspection sheets were being checked, and then DQed your team from competition afterwards if it turned out you had stolen the sticker.


NOt quite accurate. We got a sticker the first time we went though inspection. We had some minor things to work on. Friday Morning, the inspector came around, checked us and signed the sticker.

[petek]

Honestly, the fault here lies entirely with the referee, who didn't show any gracious professionalism. ...The ref should have let you play the match while the inspection sheets were being checked, and then DQed your team from competition afterwards if it turned out you had stolen the sticker.The referee has no choice in this matter. The rules are quite specific:
<R111>All ROBOTS must pass inspection for compliance with the rules herein before being allowed to compete in qualification matches. (emphasis mine)

It is unfortunate that the inspector neglected to sign the sticker and that your team didn't make sure they completed this critical final step, but the ref's hands are tied - they have to follow the rules.

[Brandon Holley]

That is a very unfortunate situation, but things happen.

I wish you were around back in the days before the IFI guys would tell you if your robot was turned on. I cannot tell you how many matches you would see where only 3/4 of the robots were moving because someone forgot to turn on the robot.

Now, IFI or someone says, uhhh team XXX, you need to come turn on your robot. How many times have you seen teams forget to close the pneumatic valve and lost the use of your pneumatics for the match.

Granted, you had no control over this, but try not to let the accident ruin your whole regional.

[MikeDubreuil]

Is what happened fair? No, absolutely not.

The job of head referee is the most difficult job in all of FIRST. The head ref holds the most power over how good or bad a FIRST competition is perceived to be. The referee (judge) is given rules (laws) to enforce at a competition. The rules are made by FIRST (legislator) and the rules are meant to be applied by the referee. It is how the head referre applies rules which makes him a good or bad referee. If a referree aplies the rules by the letter than he will be perviced as a bad. If a referee applies the rules judiciously than he will be perceived as a good referee.

This team didn't cause their problem by being inspected late. A minor procedural error by an inspector did not cause this teams problem. It was a bad judgment by a referee that caused their frustration.

Sometimes I like to think FIRST invented gracious professionalism to deal with these situations :)

[Dave McLaughlin]

Sorry for you guys, if i had been jipped out of a match like that i would be furious. not because of rank be because their so much fun

[teenmisfit]

Luckily rank doesnt mean that much. High seeded picking teams never really go by ranking (or they shouldnt anyway). Scouting is how to pick teams. At the BAE we picked the 38 seeded team and won. And our opponents in the finals had the dead last ranked team (46th out of 46 bots) against us.

But this wasnt fair and was a big unfair misunderstanding and im sorry to hear this happened in first. Just remeber life with always throw you curve balls..

[ditch64]

im thinkin that the ref was unfair, he should have known that if the delay is caused by a first official, then first should eat the time for the match or w/e, i dont think the refs understand how much pride we put into our bots, how much effort we put in it. i nearly left i was so pissed off when we lost a match, i definatly understand your point and i would say that they did not train the inspector properly. but being a volunteer i cant say its right to blame the inspector, blame the person who trained him...

[Bharat Nain]

This happens, every year, to many teams. It is sad your team had to go through it. I hope the rest of your season goes well though. I also hope that FIRST works towards solving such petty problems that cause a lot of heart aches to a lot of teams. It isn't fair, but we have to deal with it.

[Assassin Shadow]

I am personally sorry for what happened to all of you and my teammates negitive response, beleive me, i would love to have a rematch, and the kids on the team would too, but i don't see that possable, unless the refs agree to it.

yes the kids should have known about the sticker being signed, but most of the kids on this team are rookies themselves. the few senior members of this team were either at the lunch-in or taking care of other business (stratgey for the next matches).

My team doesn't have the spirit of FIRST in them, and i hope to bring that back tomorrow, i mean if we were to win all three of our matches, we would move up into the mid to upper 20's, and anyways, the way the inspections were going, most teams can't come up with a alliance paring list with a half day's of true competition.

Im gonna talk to these kids tomorrow and explain to them the meaning of FIRST and why you guys are here (UCF arena)

I would like to apolagize. I didn't mean to jump on this subject as hard as I did. It just seems to me that no one should even bother with placing blame. Instead, we should just learn from our mistakes and move on. I hope the rest of the season goes well for you guys. And if you ever need help programming your bot', please feel free to ask.

[mtaman02]

Too my knowledge teams get a sticker with the name of that event and then a color coded sticker that goes on it the first one that means the robot passed 100%. I don't think they initial the sticker. Since I don't do Robot Inspections for that and many other reasons I can't really give you a correct answer, however what I can tell you is don't blame the volunteer and they're only human and do what they have been instructed to. If anything I would blame the Lead Robot Inspector since they did not properly train their crew. As far as the referee is concerned If I were them I would've let you played since all I would need is a confirmation which can be done over the headset (which means nobody had to find anybody thats why there are 2-way radios at the event All they had to do is chirp and ask). I wonder how many other teams got this treatment at other events. NJ was pretty quiet and I don't think we seen any Robot Inspection issues.

[Marcel]

Stuff like this is bound to happen every once in a while not everything is perfect not even FIRST, Gasp I know but it's true mistakes happen, if anything you might get a rematch or something. Just enjoy the game and dont lose hope, cheer, help other teams and just continue to play.

[Rick-906]

i'm really sorry to hear this happened! i think that maybe FIRST should have a look at their rules concerning ref's descisions being so final.

your team should not be punished for a mistake that was not their fault.
[im not saying it was anyones in particular, but it sure wasnt thiers]

[DonRotolo]

Its easy to say these things sitting behind a computer screen
Been there, had that happen. Got over it.

Fair? A Fair is a place you take your kids. FIRST isn't fair, well hello, neither is life.

I am truly sorry that you ended up sitting out a match due to human error, and that your alliance ended up paying a penalty as well, but sometimes, that's the way it goes. Perhaps it isn't the desired outcome, but how you recover and deal with it is the mark of a gracious professional.

Don

[ChrisMcK2186]

Truly sorry to hear you plight. Remember, it was an honest mistake, therefore it should be forgiven. If, however, the next time you see the officials and they are sitting in wing back chairs, tenting their fingers while saying phrases such as "Excellent" and "evil laugh", feel free to hold a grudge.

A communication break down in a organization as large as FIRST is totally expected. Just remember, life goes on.
It might not have been the most fun thing to go through but look at it like this: You can now be sure that inspector will never have this happen to another team he inspects again. You took the bullet so someone else is spared. Thats selfless.
The inspectors and refs are only human and make mistakes too. Cut them some slack and enjoy the experience of FIRST.

Chris

[Travis Hoffman]

I'm sorry that this happened to you.

Is it fair? No, but life seldom is fair.

Blaming FIRST or the officials is not the answer though. You have the oppertunity here to show that no matter what they throw at you, you will prevail (true first spirit). Show them what teamwork and FIRST is about. If I were you, I'd go to that inspector and tell him it's all OK (I'll bet he feels worse about this than you do).

"No matter what" [FIRST] "throws at you, you will prevail"?

This isn't Survivor: Florida. It's FIRST. If an organization is flawed in such a manner that it unintentionally yet continuously throws up roadblocks to random teams, roadblocks which keep the teams from getting the most out of the experience they paid for, then that organization must look themselves in the mirror and find out what's wrong. Sometimes, students and mentors must take a stand and help that organization open their eyes to the larger problem at hand.

I feel very bad for the volunteer inspector who forgot to sign the stickers, but the fact he didn't even know it was required indicates a much larger failure of the system. Teams pay far too much money and are far too busy dealing with their own internal matters for anyone to expect them to know all the "behind the scenes" rules and monitor the performance of the regional staff on hand. Teams rightfully expect that all training and communication has been effectively conducted prior to the event, and that the staff is effectively qualified to run the event smoothly.

While it's natural to look at each disappointing incident as its own little monster and tell the kids affected don't worry about it, you won't have to deal with that monster again, how many of these "isolated" events are we going to have to witness before we begin to believe there is a larger problem the FIRST community is facing? I think years of teams sitting back and "going with the flow" have actually let FIRST settle into an undeserved comfort zone, leading us to this point in time where the pot is finally boiling over and we all must find a way to clean up the spills together.

The FIRST spirit isn't about ignoring systemic problems and hoping they'll go away. The FIRST spirit is built upon a foundation of problem solving. Let's identify and help solve the problems this organization is facing, not sweep them under the carpet. Thank you to this student who voiced his concern over this problem in such a respectful manner. I will offer the same advice to you that so many others have - stay positive and find ways to make the most out of your situation (perhaps help verify that other teams who've been inspected at future events have signed stickers). However, in addition to this, I offer you the hope that one day soon FIRST mentors will join together and actively seek to work with FIRST to solve the problems we observe instead of simply looking past them.

The word of the day is "communication", kids. Everyone, let's help spread the word.

[Kims Robot]

The FIRST spirit isn't about ignoring systemic problems and hoping they'll go away.

The word of the day is "communication", kids. Everyone, let's help spread the word.

The one thing I want to point out about this is that while I agree FIRST has some things to fix, I dont see this as a "systematic problem". We didnt hear about any other teams who had this issue... so either the inspector was flustered by the late inspection and didnt know, or he didnt hand out any other stickers at the event, or others werent caught, or others caught the issue... etc etc.

Either way, I agree with the "communication" statement, but communication is communication, its not venting, yelling, being upset, or acting un-GP. Its frustrating to miss a match, but more and more this year people want to throw blame, and they want to throw it at FIRST. Lets remember this isnt about the robots, its about how the students are inspired by their mentors. Students dont work one on one with volunteers or FIRST officials, and while the competition is the "jazz" of program, its not the heart. The heart is your team and how you deal with things. Our team didnt get picked for the first time ever in regionals this year... you know what they did? they cheared on other teams and got excited that they had time to practice for Boston. Its not about the competition, and while it can be frustrating, we all need to take a deep breath and figure out how we can fix these things if they really bother us that much, instead of blaming the system.

*gets off soapbox* :D

[Brandon Holley]

Lets remember this isnt about the robots, its about how the students are inspired by their mentors. Students dont work one on one with volunteers or FIRST officials, and while the competition is the "jazz" of program, its not the heart. The heart is your team and how you deal with things.

Kim,
I agree completely with what you say here. However, we cannot throw "inspiration" in front of problems whenever they arise. GP is a great thing, but it cannot be used as a defense or a reason for everything.

This situation is very unfortunate, and should NOT have occured. It is right to be upset about it...but you have to move on and "get back up on that horse" so to speak. Good luck.

[Shyguynate64]

All I have to say is that at least this didnt happen in one of the final matches that actually count. You guys still have the chance to do good. Like others have said already, just because you dont have a high standing, doesn't mean that you wont get picked, we've all seen it happen before.

The trick to getting through life is to learn to roll with the punches. :P

[PinionTwister]

It is unfortunate that problems like this occurs in FIRST. I don't blame the officials or the inspectors - they are volunteers. What I blame is common sense - we have GP to cover everything but we (as a FIRST community) do not have common sense when these issues arise.

FIRST is about building robots. FIRST is about working with teammates. FIRST is about learning. FIRST is about working with mentors. FIRST is a great experience.

Should we really throw all of that away because a sticker was not properly signed before being placed on the robot? Is the schedule SO important that we can't take 5 minutes to find the answer?

If the issue is safety related I cannot agree more - remove the robot from competition. If it is not safety related then let common sense take over and make a judgement call (what the referre should do).

Lastly, I checked section 3 of the competition manual relating to inspection. It clearly states that the robot needs to be inspected. It says nothing about a "signed" sticker before we can go on the field.

[dlavery]

All I have to say is that at least this didnt happen in one of the final matches that actually count. You guys still have the chance to do good. Like others have said already, just because you dont have a high standing, doesn't mean that you wont get picked, we've all seen it happen before.

The trick to getting through life is to learn to roll with the punches. :P

Should we really throw all of that away because a sticker was not properly signed before being placed on the robot? Is the schedule SO important that we can't take 5 minutes to find the answer?

If the issue is safety related I cannot agree more - remove the robot from competition. If it is not safety related then let common sense take over and make a judgement call (what the referre should do).

Lastly, I checked section 3 of the competition manual relating to inspection. It clearly states that the robot needs to be inspected. It says nothing about a "signed" sticker before we can go on the field.

Please note that this thread is from last year (2007), not this year.

[Protronie]

No its not fair but it happens... you could just kick up a fuzz and hold an 'tude or shake it off and think of it as a learning experience.
For now on I'm sure your team and any others that hear of this will make sure the inspection sticker gets signed. I'm sure the inspector will do the same so this has just helped First and all the teams learn.
Everyone that puts on or works in a event like this has a million and one things on their minds, and a thousand new things to learn.
Like you've never overlooked anything where someone said, "you should have known"
Just buckle up and move on... it will show your good character.

[Uberbots]

rank really doesnt mean much. Its the performance of your robot on the field. If your robot performs well, but is paired with a bad alliance or is against a tough alliance, the scouts on other teams will note it.

If it makes you feel any better, yesterday we picked team 716, who really wasnt doing that well in the rankings, yet had a very god robot that perfectly fit into the alliance we were trying to create. and guess what? we won the competition.

considering the competition is probably over, just keep this in mind for future years, and dont let a simple mistake of the inspectors get you down. As they say, "shift happens".

[647techangel]

no its not fair but who ever said life was:)

[IndySam]

All I have to say is that at least this didnt happen in one of the final matches that actually count. You guys still have the chance to do good. Like others have said already, just because you dont have a high standing, doesn't mean that you wont get picked, we've all seen it happen before.

The trick to getting through life is to learn to roll with the punches. :P

Why did you resurrect last years thread?

Can the mods close this?

[AllieLallah15]

No one is to blame. FIRST didn't do this. The Ref didn't do this. The Inspector didn't do this. It was an accident. No one wanted you to miss your match. To make you feel a bit better, Rank means nothing in this game. One of the best scorers at VCU was in the low 40's at the end of the round-robin and went to the QF's.

It's not fair. it's not right, but stuff like this happens. If you don't get picked for finals tomorrow, get in those stands and cheer for those who did. Remember, this is FIRST.


He's right. My team's power cord disconnected during the hybrid period of the final match so we got second instead of winning, but stuff happens. You just accept it graciously, and keep cheering for others and yourselves. It's no one's fault.

[Nawaid Ladak]

just letting you guys know that this team (1694) folded because the teacher left.

the teacher left because of limited student involvement.

there was limited student involvement because of another mentor on this team and somewhat of their lack of success... along with this incident...

im with 945 right now, and i somewhat see the same situation. the mentor comes up with a design and the team has to stick to it. or they have to do a lot of convincing to change the design.

i came from a team where students came up with ideas and we would al make a design decision together.

many ideas are better than just one for designing a robot. thats how you get the best outcome and performance

o by the way, i got over this issue a long time ago

[Shyguynate64]

Why did you resurrect last years thread?

Can the mods close this?

Wow I didn't even realize lol... Silly small dates... :rolleyes: