Rough Play in Rack N Roll

[sanddrag]

I witnessed some VERY rough play in rack and roll, I mean, back up at 03 Stack Attack levels, and it never got penalized. I mean, it seems like the rules go through a lot of trouble to explain that this is not the way to play the game. I mean, hard hitting. Robots penetrating others, etc.

Has anyone witnessed "the yellow flag" being given? Or even a rough play penalty?

To me, the referees seem scared to give penalties. Lessons Learned 2005 is probably at fault for that.

[Michael Hill]

I don't believe any were given out in St. Louis; but seriously, is FIRST going too overboard on rough play rules? I think we should be able to rough each other up a little bit. It seems that teams have been forced to get a little less aggressive every year. I know rough play isn't necessarily in the spirit of the competition, but I think it's something that should still be allowed. It's a harsh reality.

[xxwolfwoodxx1]

I agree, we were given absolute hell out here in Arizona too. The refs should have been tougher on ramming, I mean at one part our 2-part arm was basically pulled apart, thankfully though it was thanks a little bent metal and was a quick repair and we didnt miss a match.

by the way, what lessons learned in 2005 are you talking about

[NoahOwnsWithTC4]

I witnessed getting the yellow card pulled on our team. I assume we were disabled for saftey reasons and for our robot falling apart a bit, but I don't quite know why we got the yellow card. I still need to talk to Jeff 'bout that.
I also saw our arm get hit a couple times pretty hard which didn't help us as we barely got it working by saturday.

[Luckyfish05]

I don't doubt you've seen some rough play. PantherTech at St. Louis was on the receiving end (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/PantherTech/St%20Louis/IMG_0257.jpg) of some of that rough play during the first or second match on Friday. But I (as I was told by team members) would say that our rough play was not intentional. That's where the line is drawn, many times the ruling could go either way, and this is just the nature of the game. Not to say there aren't rules and <G35> lines those out pretty clearly. I just think we have to remember what's intentional and what's not, and maybe give the teams the benfit of the doubt if we're not sure.

just my .02...

[Sunbun]

If I recall, a few bits of shrapnel fell off our robot today at LA when robots went full throttle on us, which made me cringe a bit. To be honest, though, I've not enough experience to consider certain actions as roughness...

By the way, congrats, sanddrag, for getting runner-up today.

[1359th Scalawag]

No yellow flags were given out at the Pacific NorthWest Regional but I believe I heard that a yellow flag was thrown at the Manchester regional. Not too sure though.

It's a given that there's going to be rough play. But the stuff they'll give yellow cards on is if they go at full speed from across the entire arena and do real damage on another robot.

[Billfred]

I witnessed some VERY rough play in rack and roll, I mean, back up at 03 Stack Attack levels, and it never got penalized. I mean, it seems like the rules go through a lot of trouble to explain that this is not the way to play the game. I mean, hard hitting. Robots penetrating others, etc.

Has anyone witnessed "the yellow flag" being given? Or even a rough play penalty?

To me, the referees seem scared to give penalties. Lessons Learned 2005 is probably at fault for that.At UCF, I only know of one yellow card given--to 744, in the match where they were eliminated. (A moot point, basically.) Most roughness penalties generally manifested themselves by yanking a low ringer off the rack, with its associated effects.

[EricH]

I witnessed getting the yellow card pulled on our team. I assume we were disabled for saftey reasons and for our robot falling apart a bit, but I don't quite know why we got the yellow card. I still need to talk to Jeff 'bout that.
I also saw our arm get hit a couple times pretty hard which didn't help us as we barely got it working by saturday.Agressive play is what I heard from the announcer. Good thing you were disabled before the endgame or you would have had 30 penalty points as well (home zone infraction).

[Jeff K.]

Agressive play is what I heard from the announcer. Good thing you were disabled before the endgame or you would have had 30 penalty points as well (home zone infraction).

That one match was pretty weird.
We were disabled for another hitting our arm at the same time that the ref was yelling AT US while we were trying to fix the arm's orientation after another robot pulled the arm out. The ref that disabled us didn't do it for a DQ, but for safety, which we completely understand. It was good though that they disabled us. We were also dragged into their home zone by that team when they went for the ramp...

Just saying what was actually going on at the field..

Overall though, LA was pretty fun, very interesting elim matches. Congrats to the Poof Bot Element Alliance.

[Ben Englert]

Actually, as 1072's driver, I was threatened with a yellow card in LA - the ref said something like, "you're one bump away from a yellow card".

Unfortunately defense was all we were really good for this time around, hopefully the arm will decide to cooperate in Sacramento.

[burkechrs1]

my guess would be one reason they are so hesitant with giving yellow cards is because they follow you the rest of the regional. they're pretty serious things. and im sure the refs have the mindset "let them have fun" as long as no robots are being damaged and people arent unsafe, i see no problem allowing rough play. it's been something teams have had to deal with every year. yes, there is a point to draw the line, but i think its selfish to be mad cuz a ref doesnt call a yellow card everytime your bot is rammed. heck if they ram you and get away with it why not ram them back. you'll feel better. plus its all just good fun. which si what it's about. now i may be totally attacked for this post but who cares, its just my two cents. take care all, and remember it's just a game!

[AdamHeard]

After our BB transmissions for the arm gaveway, we had one match where it was 6 armless bots. We were sitting on our side of the field waiting for our partner to drop ramps when the opponent drove over just to ram us. They was no strategic advantage to this whatsoever. Some teams seem to go out there just to try to rough up robots.

[MrForbes]

I think there were two yellows in qualifying at the AZ regional. The final rounds were kind of agressive, but I didn't really notice any intentional damage. Having robots that can reach up 8 feet means that manipulators are going to take a beating...so designing to resist that beating should be part of the plan from the beginning.

Strangely enough, we didn't have any trouble with our arm's 125:1 BB transmission....but the music wire claw did require frequent reshaping, and still needs some redesign or adjusting.

[Jack Jones]

....but the music wire claw did require frequent reshaping, and still needs some redesign or adjusting.

That's what you get for having it tuned to B-Flat ;)

[cziggy343]

a yellow card was given to team 122, but it wasn't for rough play, it was for repeated deployment of ramp out of the home zone.

[KTorak]

I think maybe one yellow card with given at GLR (but I didn't see who it was...just word of mouth). I think teams did a really good job with defense. We were told not to mess with robots unless they were trying to score. We have a pretty vulnerable pickup mechanism, and most teams respected our robot and didn't run it over to break it. The only time they roughed us up (and I did it to others) was when scoring was occurring/being attempted.

[Koko Ed]

I don't know.
I didn't see naything rougher this year than last year where teams would race full speed across the field to stop free shooters from scoring.
The roughest play I've seen is robots getting snagged in the rack and tearing themselves apart trying to get out of it.

[cziggy343]

yeah, we got stuck in the rack a couple of times, but we were pushed in and thought that that would be called for rough play. but w/e

[VanMan]

In eliminations 843 got a yellow card one match and a red card a bit later.

[BoyWithCape195]

How could 843 get a red card and still win the regional...

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Is roughness necessarily a bad thing?

Pre 2005ish, you built your robot to last. Now, we have bumpers. I really hope thats not an excuse for shoddy workmanship.

[MrForbes]

How could 843 get a red card and still win the regional...

getting a red card during eliminations makes your alliance lose that match, but you can win the next one. look at the VCU finals...blue won the first finals round, red carded in the second, and won the third to take the regional.

[Steve W]

There was a yellow card given in SoCal during the Elimination rounds. Not sure what for. As for rough play I don't believe there was any. Agressive defence, FOR SURE!!!! Some of the toughest defence was Team 4 (our hosts) against us in the semi's. We were pushed, shoved, banged, hit and bothered the whole time every match. We would not have wanted it any other way. Even though we lost to the eventual SoCal Champs (Poofs, BeachBots and Team Element) I believe they were the best matches of the tournament. FIRST is not for the weak at heart. You need to be tough to survive. That doesn't mean dirty play or intent to damage. I know that I would like to thank our opponents for making it hard fought matches with a lot to remember. :)

[meatmanek]

We have a pretty vulnerable pickup mechanism, and most teams respected our robot and didn't run it over to break it. The only time they roughed us up (and I did it to others) was when scoring was occurring/being attempted.

If only. 868's pickup mechanism is fairly robust, but out of necessity, it's mounted close to the ground and there are no bumpers protecting it. What bothers me is that it's entirely within our 28"x37" envelope. I can understand pushing us, but it goes a bit too far when you're trying to push us by our kicker wheel. One match had us in a pushing contest, and our pickup mechanism got a bit crooked. We bent it back (and have since reinforced it), but that could have been a huge handicap during the match.

[Torboticsmember]

In the Bayou regional Semi-finals Team 118 basically shoved Bogalousa team off a ramp when it was going up. I have no beef with 118 ( actually i have a small beef with Bogalousa because they only got into the match because of another robot coming out, and they were only that high because they got good partners, while things just kept happening to us. But i guess it happens to everyone) but i think team 118 should have gotten a yellow card, or atleast a penalty, because they waited for them to start to go up, then pushed them off.

[MariaChristineK]

At Pittsburgh there was only one yellow flag given out to a robot, however, in my opinion there were many more infractions similar to the one that recieved the yellow that could have been called. My only concern is consistency. If you are going to let robots play rough defense then be consistent and let all robots play rough from the practice matches to the elimination rounds.

[mizscience]

A yellow card was given during the semi-finals of the FLordia Regional to team 744 when they rammed us a second time - the first time, the ref held up his hand in like a warning gesture, but the second time [when we got hit so hard, our arm swung around and almost knocked out said ref] he pulled a yellow card. That was the only one I noticed at the Florida Regional...

:]

[ianmanka]

At Pittsburgh there was only one yellow flag given out to a robot, however, in my opinion there were many more infractions similar to the one that recieved the yellow that could have been called. My only concern is consistency. If you are going to let robots play rough defense then be consistent and let all robots play rough from the practice matches to the elimination rounds.

Yeah, that was us. We tried to do a 0-degree turn, and ended up swinging our arm around. We made contact with another robot (on our own alliance, mind you) outside the bumper zone, and were issued the flag/card.

Later, one of our casters got bent in (we had two-wheel drive with four casters), so we were effectively operating without any contact on one of the corners. We ended up almost killing a referee later in that match (our turning seemed to have some issues), and almost got carded again. I managed to talk the head referee out of giving us one, mentioning the bent caster.

What surprised me was that being the only team with a yellow flag, that they wouldn't just let us keep the flag in the flag holder (despite them having more than a dozen) -- we almost forgot on numerous occasions to request the yellow flag.

I definitely agree though with respect to the lack of consistency in the refereeing -- there were a lot of other teams (especially in qualifying matches) doing similar, if not worse contact with other robots, yet they weren't penalized. Admittedly, our match when we got carded was in the second match of the day, so maybe they didn't know what to expect.

Regardless, if they carded us, they should have carded other teams who did the same thing. Just my thoughts.

[crafty]

At the Bayou Regional, our robot's wooden arm got stuck on a ringer while I was placing the ringer. While I was trying to get it unstuck, a robot ( I can't even remember what team now) rammed into us at full speed and snapped the arm in two. Luckily, it was fairly easy to fix.

[rachal]

Our mecanum drive got out of control at LA, I think after switching from closed to open loop, and when we went to block 968, it rammed them several times at high speed (we go about 14 fps) even when we tried to pull away. Neither of us had bumpers. It looked so deliberate that I thought we were going to get a yellow card, but we just got a warning.

[cziggy343]

In eliminations 843 got a yellow card one match and a red card a bit later.

o yeah. i was in the pits and didn't really see wat happened there in the finals.

[Tetraman]

Watching from the sidelines at FLR, I noticed a huge difference in the chaos on the field. That rack would NOT stop moving for any team. Everyone was franticly pounding into it or pounding someone else into it.

As far as I remember, there were two yellow cards there, but I can def be wrong on that.

[Koko Ed]

Watching from the sidelines at FLR, I noticed a huge difference in the chaos on the field. That rack would NOT stop moving for any team. Everyone was franticly pounding into it or pounding someone else into it.

As far as I remember, there were two yellow cards there, but I can def be wrong on that.

1567 and 250 got one each.

[September]

414 got yellow carded for "excessive violence."

If the rules were enforced more evenly from the beginning, there should've been many more yellow flags.

[cziggy343]

414 got yellow carded for "excessive violence."

If the rules were enforced more evenly from the beginning, there should've been many more yellow flags.

i agree completly.

[Koko Ed]

From 2002 to now (my years in FIRST) here is how I would rate them violence wise.
1.Stack Attack(2003) - What started out as focusing on building stacks instead became a basic vicious game of King of the Hill. Just ask the Martians at Buckey that year (the first and only time I've ever seen a robot get knocked into the air by another robot).
2. Aim High(2006) - FIRST institutes the use of bumpers and team decide to use it as a lisence to ram shooters that get free in the open. The only where a field element (the ramp) was used to take out the otehr teams willingly.
3. FIRST Frenzy: Raising the Bar (2004)- Another game with a king of the Hill element. Becasue some teams (like 67) could get on the bar without going on the platform it wasn't quite as physical as Stack Attack.
4.Triple Play (2005) - The robot were prone to tipping and got tipped over alot. A bigger danger was to the human players. The only game with a massive penalty to discourage insane agressiveness (which some teams still did).
5. Rack n' Roll (2007) - There's alot of pushing and shoving but the Rack seems to be a bigger danger to the robot than the other robots.
6. Zone Zeal(2002) - The most violent thing I saw happen is when Truck Town Thunder pulled an oppnent over in a tug of war.

[Ian Curtis]

Which Triple Play are we talking about? I saw two very different versions of that game get played. In Manchester it was all about defense, but in Atlanta we got to watch 6 robots play tic-tac-toe.

I think it's funny how the game that was all about pushing was the least violent one. :confused:

From 2002 to now (my years in FIRST) here is how I would rate them violence wise.
1.Stack Attack(2003) - What started out as focusing on building stacks instead became a basic vicious game of King of the Hill. Just ask the Martians at Buckey that year (the first and only time I've ever seen a robot get knocked into the air by another robot).
2. Aim High(2006) - FIRST institutes the use of bumpers and team decide to use it as a lisence to ram shooters that get free in the open. The only where a field element (the ramp) was used to take out the otehr teams willingly.
3. FIRST Frenzy: Raising the Bar (2004)- Another game with a king of the Hill element. Becasue some teams (like 67) could get on the bar without going on the platform it wasn't quite as physical as Stack Attack.
4.Triple Play (2005) - The robot were prone to tipping and got tipped over alot. A bigger danger was to the human players. The only game with a massive penalty to discourage insane agressiveness (which some teams still did).
5. Rack n' Roll (2007) - There's alot of pushing and shoving but the Rack seems to be a bigger danger to the robot than the other robots.
6. Zone Zeal(2002) - The most violent thing I saw happen is when Truck Town Thunder pulled an oppnent over in a tug of war.

[Koko Ed]

Which Triple Play are we talking about? I saw two very different versions of that game get played. In Manchester it was all about defense, but in Atlanta we got to watch 6 robots play tic-tac-toe.

I think it's funny how the game that was all about pushing was the least violent one. :confused:

I didn't see much pushing at all in Zone Zeal. It was strickly a tug of war over who controled the goals. It's was a game of keep away.

[Tetraman]

Which Triple Play are we talking about? I saw two very different versions of that game get played. In Manchester it was all about defense, but in Atlanta we got to watch 6 robots play tic-tac-toe.

I think it's funny how the game that was all about pushing was the least violent one. :confused:

There is a huge difference in Regionals and the Nationals.

Nationals are about big scores. Regionals are about staying alive.

[ScoutingNerd175]

There is a huge difference in Regionals and the Nationals.

Nationals are about big scores. Regionals are about staying alive.

It's not just regionals in general. I have the most experience with the Manchester Regional and the Chesapeake Regional, so I can't really compare to anything else. However, every game I have seen played at Manchester is a defensive game, because that is the way that Manchester is. In 2005, our robot was tipped 3+ times at Manchester but was not tipped at all at Nationals or Chesapeake. Chesapeake is likely to have a far less defensive style of play.

From the play at nationals I would say that 2005 was not a very defensive game. I found 2006 to be much more defensive everywhere I saw it played.

[Koko Ed]

So does the addition of bumpers cause teams to be more agressive?
Would Stack Attack have been played differently if the robots had bumpers?
Would any of the games?

[sephiroth1021]

The Milwaukee regional had some interesting calls on this subject. They penalized teams for overly rough play fairly consistently, but they also made some strange related calls. During one match, another team's bot managed to penetrate ours beneath the bumper and up through the base, shearing the wiring on one of our IR encoders. When the judges saw this they not only docked points from the other team for out of bumper contact, but also took points from us for having exposed wires.

[BrianR]

We recieved a yellow card for a hit, and then some bad luck. We had a marginal hit on one robot, and the head ref was standing there and gave us a warning. While he was talking to us, another opponent's robot flipped itself on the rack, but he didn't see that. He assumed it was us again, and gave us the yellow card.

We were the only one at the Milwaukee Regional to get a yellow card.

[Jon Jack]

...I witnessed getting the yellow card pulled on our team. I assume we were disabled for saftey reasons and for our robot falling apart a bit, but I don't quite know why we got the yellow card...I also saw our arm get hit a couple times pretty hard which didn't help us as we barely got it working by saturday....
...Agressive play is what I heard from the announcer...
...when the opponent drove over just to ram us. They was no strategic advantage to this whatsoever. Some teams seem to go out there just to try to rough up robots.

The Los Angeles Regional had some interesting calls...

Teams who were consistently aggressive were either never given a yellow card or warned over and over again with no consequence. On the other hand teams who were victims of circumstance (wrong place at the wrong time kind of stuff) were warned, penalized, DQed or yellow carded.

[Mark Garver]

Does anyone else feel that FIRST took the yellow and red card rule from IRI because of the teams liking it at this off season event? I believe that FIRST did for a change hear what people wanted and tried to make it happen. Although I feel that FIRST has done a poor job dupicating what IRI uses these warnings for. Does anyone else feel similar?

[chinckley]

I did not see any at GLR. There were some warnings by the head ref though.
Did anyone get one there?

[sdcantrell56]

To be honest, I like the rough play. It encourages everyone to build robust designs, and lets face it, for people who are not involved with FIRST, the matches look much more interesting than if no contact were allowed. I know many might disagree but whenever I tell people about the competitions, the first question is always, "So is it like battle bots do you get to fight other robots?" I always have to say no but I do throw in that there is a lot of pushing. I firmly believe that it is this pushing and aggressive play that interests many people not involved with FIRST. I also believe that robots should not try to maliciously damage other robots as this is not in the spirit of FIRST but defense and pushing I feel is a crucial element of the game. As well if you can build a robot that can still place ringers efficiently even while being pushed, the accomplishment is even greater.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I believe the game has gotten a bit rougher. I also believe that FIRST wants this since the game changes seem to be inferring that this is what they want.

More defense has been played since they went to 3 on 3. Gone is the days where the field is open. Tight checking and scoring under duress are now the names of the game. The addition of the bumpers seems to reinforce that strong interaction between the robots is to be expected, thus the lack of yellow cards and penalties.

I believe that rougher games make for better viewing. More contact between the robots means more excitement, and that in turn appeals to the masses (a target of FIRST). All in all I believe it is good for FIRST to allow (within reason) more and harder contact between the robots.

[Kims Robot]

Another thing about this years game is the Rack makes it really difficult to defend on the other side. Our drivers were attempting to defend on team 73, and after successfully keeping them from the rack, 73 backed into the endzone... as we followed them, our driver couldnt tell they had stopped and rammed into them, backed up to stay in their way and in the process of driving forward hit them again... we might have gotten a yellow card, but either the refs didnt see or they realized our driver couldnt see. I know the hits werent intentional, and from my seat didnt look that hard, but we realize now that we have to be really careful about defense on the other side of the rack.

[wolfj]

Team 1450 received a yellow card early on, and then won the Finger Lakes Regional. I'm sure the refs are reluctant to give them. (Remember that video that introduced the concept, where they said that they hope to not have to use any?)

[vivek16]

we got penalized for tipping a robot over i think. i dont know if that counts for what you are looking for.

and in about a quarter of our matches the judges told us that we were really close to getting a yellow flag.

[Dan Petrovic]

I like the rough play, actually.

It definately makes it more intense, and when a team scores there's a much bigger wave of energy. You're getting pummeled by some team and you still manage to score? That must feel so good!

The bumpers make things so much better. You can drive it like you stole it without worrying too much about damaging either of the robots. Even without bumpers, there's nothing more satisfying than the sound of two 120 pound robots clashing face to face, metal to metal in the middle of the field.

Stack Attack was amazing :D

[burkechrs1]

i think people are expecting the yellow card system to be a punishment as common as a point penalty. i think they're wrong. the yellow card is probably a last resort thing to let the teams know that the refs are still in total control and if they feel that the teams re getting out fo hand they'll pull one and that keeps a check in teh back of the drivers minds that hopefully keeps them from being as aggresive for future rounds. as far as unfair calls. has anyone ever watched a football game? how many late hits, and illegal hits do you see that arent called? and also how many calls do you see where you want to scream cuz it was a bad call. it's all part of the game and it's something players and coaches have gotten used to. so my advice is if you get a yellow card dont complain, even if you think you dont deserve it, and if you think teh other team deserved one but they didnt get it, dont complain that it's unfair cuz maybe the ref just missed it. there is a lot to watch in one match. it's ok to clarify with the head ref after a match, i personally do that all the time, it actually puts your minds at ease most of the time, you should try it. but don't complain that they made bad calls, it's hard to call a perfect game dont make there job harder. if you want kindly ask them what they thought of the play, but don't get mad because the call didnt go your way. that's all part of life.

just my .02...

[Donut]

At Arizona I know there were at least 2 yellow cards issued, and I think there may have been a 3rd as well. One of them was for excessive ramming (including hitting robots hard enough that their ramps would deploy), and another was for hitting the opponent with an arm while playing defense on them.

I saw lots of hitting and whatnot, but really nothing worse than last year. There are far less tipped robots this year, surprising since there are so many ramps and lifts of different qualities as well as arm bots this year.

What really surprises me though is the lack of bumpers on robots. I think less than half of all teams at AZ had bumpers, and some who did didn't always use them (39 comes to mind). If you're expecting rough play, get the bumpers!

[Lil' Lavery]

I think the card system was used very well at VCU.
414 received a yellow card in the qualifications for "excessive violent actions" (or something like that)
122 received a yellow card in the qualifications for having their ramps deploy outside of the home zone for the 3rd match in a row
843 received a red card in the finals for intentional tipping of 1610 (albeit, the video suggests it wasn't intentional, intention is almost impossible to interpret, especially in the heat of the moment)
I would have liked to see a couple more penalties (not cards) for ramming, but it wasn't a huge deal. Us and another team literally exchanged paint (or stickers to be more accurate) on more than one occasion after they hit us. Regardless though, the officiating at VCU was consistent and well coordinated.
The card system should not be as liberally used as some seem to wish it to be. Cards are, and should be, a last resort to stop particularly egregious and/or repeated offenses. I think the system was modeled after the IRI card system (which has worked outstandingly), and with some minor refinements will work just as well as it.
Also, doesn't it seem like we get this thread pretty much every year? (with the exception of 2005, when we got a too many penalties one)

[flightofone]

As a newcoming looking forward to our first field experience in Hartford, I have to say I love the high-speed, hard-pushing, near-tipping, pre-maturing ramping, hanging up in the rack, scoring over defense, bodyguarding, bad/good driving, and general chaos/suspense that this game is turning into. If your contact is in the bumper-zone, and you are not ramming at full-speed, I say let them play! [I may regret these words in a few days:) ]

[DarthXar]

I don't think I saw any penalties for rough play. I saw ONE yellow flag, and that was on practice day. But I was a human player, so I only really saw matches my team was in, and a few that I had time to watch.

I did see some self-inflicted rough play though :3

[pyroslev]

I think the card system was used very well at VCU.
414 received a yellow card in the qualifications for "excessive violent actions" (or something like that)
122 received a yellow card in the qualifications for having their ramps deploy outside of the home zone for the 3rd match in a row
843 received a red card in the finals for intentional tipping of 1610 (albeit, the video suggests it wasn't intentional, intention is almost impossible to interpret, especially in the heat of the moment)
I would have liked to see a couple more penalties (not cards) for ramming, but it wasn't a huge deal. Us and another team literally exchanged paint (or stickers to be more accurate) on more than one occasion after they hit us. Regardless though, the officiating at VCU was consistent and well coordinated.
The card system should not be as liberally used as some seem to wish it to be. Cards are, and should be, a last resort to stop particularly egregious and/or repeated offenses. I think the system was modeled after the IRI card system (which has worked outstandingly), and with some minor refinements will work just as well as it.
Also, doesn't it seem like we get this thread pretty much every year? (with the exception of 2005, when we got a too many penalties one)

414's card was appropriate. They rammed and slammed a whole match. 122's yellow was a hard sell for some but understandable with the ramps.
843's Red was appropriate. (you hit something holding something high in the air that's shaking, tipping ensues 90% of the time easy.)

The card system was not overused at VCU. A few instances were worthy of penalties but not quite card offenses. There is some room between penalties and cards for some form of penalties for those ram and slammers.

[Marcel]

I think whatever you decide every team should play by you know, if one team can play rough then all the other teams should equally be allowed to be as rough because we usually play fair and don't do anything too rough you know and once we had this robot that pinned us against the wall and kept backing up a little when we pushed so we could get away but they kept ramming us against the wall.

It wasn't fair because we couldn't do anything and because of that we couldn't finnish scoring or get to the other side of the field for bonus points so we ended up losing. Whatever happens all teams should have a fair chance to be rough you know what I mean? We didn't want to play rough against that team because it was against the rules to do what they did to us so we didn't want to risk being disqualified or anything.

[sdcantrell56]

What you are saying could actually be legal. Complete ramming is not allowed but pinning and then backing up for a while and pinning again is completely legal. It is unfortunate that you weren't able to continue with your game plan, but I would have to say that that was simply good defense on the other teams part. Next time I would say either push back, if you are stronger or run away. I don't know if they were truly ramming which would make this all wrong but if they weren't this is my 2 cents.

[MasterChief 573]

I know that 1720 got one at Boilermaker but that's about it. I know one team that I think should've gotten one, call me crazy but when you almost cause one robot to tip and then knock another one down in the same match you deserve a penalty. I'm not gonna throw out names but you know who you are!

[sdcantrell56]

I'm going to have to admit that my team tipped 2 robots in one match. Neither one was intentional nor was it malicious (I was the coach); however the referees viewed it as so malicious that they immediately disqualified us without giving a yellow or red card at all. I understand that they are doing a very tough job, but I feel that this was completely out of line. The first robot that we tipped hit us first from all the way across the field and our driver was backing up and our claw simply got got on their robot and pulled it over. The second one I told our driver to play defense on another robot. He drove over to the robot and slowed down just to push it. Unfortunately in the heat of the moment he did not realize that our arm was still elevated so the referees saw that our arm made contact with the other team high and then it tipped over. Unfortunately the referees did not understand that our gripper is hinged and physically could not have tipped the other team. It just so happened that the other team had two ramps on the side that were angled up and inward so as our gripper touched them the gripper folded back towards our robot and could not have pushed the other team. I am not mad at the referees because they do such a great job 99% of the time, I just think that occasionally they do mess up. Also I think that it is crazy for teams to build such top heavy robots that they are in danger of tipping over when someone plays defense on them, especially after watching past games. Ok sorry everyone for my rant.

[MasterChief 573]

In my situation neither of the incidents were provoked.

[sdcantrell56]

Then I would say they should most definitely be penalized at a minimum a yellow card.

[MasterChief 573]

Well they weren't and it cost us the chance to move on to the semi-finals.

[sdcantrell56]

Unfortunately that is the nature of FIRST. For instance the pairing algorithm probably cost us a second regional win. We were paired with the same nonfunctioning robots for the entire regional. Most matches we would score either 5 or 6 ringers by ourselves and still end up losing due to various penalties that our partners incurred. As for your situation, the referees have a difficult job to try to keep the matches fair, as well as not penalize every little thing, and sometimes they mess up but there is really nothing we can do about it.

[MasterChief 573]

We were in the same boat for the qualifiers, but yeah what are you gonna do?

[ALIBI]

I know that 1720 got one at Boilermaker but that's about it. I know one team that I think should've gotten one, call me crazy but when you almost cause one robot to tip and then knock another one down in the same match you deserve a penalty. I'm not gonna throw out names but you know who you are!

QF2-3 was brutal. Pretty tough to place ringers when two robots are not just being pushed around but are either tipped over or forced into the rack so hard that they get tangled with it. It seemed as though most of the finals turned into defensive battles. Especially with no ringers scored in the final match. We still had fun.

[burkechrs1]

Something the drivers need to learn for this game is to adjust there gameplay on the fly. We're all going to hit by defense that we think is unfair, strictly because it is really good and because of it we can't score. I learned real quickly that our robot couldn't outpush most people, so for the rest of the regional instead of pushing back I ran away. There is always going to be some other robot trying to stop you, the robot with the smartest driver is going to win the battle. You don't need to push back or be faster, just play smarter and don't think that because you have a plan you need to stick to it. In our last quarterfianls match I realized that they were playing such good defense that i wasn't going ot be able to score that I gave up on scoring and played defense on there scoring bot and chose to rely on ramps to win. It made it a much closer game than it would have been if I didn't do that. That just shows that strategy is not set in stone and it can and sometimes must be altered on the fly in order to be successful. SO I think we should stop complaining about playing to rough and losing cuz we got tipped and just play smarter at our next regional or at nationals. And if you don't have any regionals left and aren't going to nationals then talking about it is fine but it isn't going to change that fact that you lost and there is nothing you can do about it.

On that note, I would like to say that I like the fact that this is one of the roughest games to date. In fact the fact that these games do get rough is one reason why I joined the team my freshman year. It brings people in. Nobody wants to watch a game that involves no contact.... It's just.... boring =D

[Dan Petrovic]

I know that 1720 got one at Boilermaker but that's about it. I know one team that I think should've gotten one, call me crazy but when you almost cause one robot to tip and then knock another one down in the same match you deserve a penalty. I'm not gonna throw out names but you know who you are!

Okay. I know exactly who you are talking about and I was talking with their driver.

He said that he was caught between the rack and the two robots they knocked over both times. He had no choice but to push until those robots moved.

I know where you are coming from and that does seem like something that should have been penalized, but in both cases they were simply pushing within the bumper zone. There was no high-end tipping, no wedges, no high speed ramming. It was fair, it was clean. They didn't make an obvious effort to tip those robots over.

On that note, I would like to say that I like the fact that this is one of the roughest games to date. In fact the fact that these games do get rough is one reason why I joined the team my freshman year. It brings people in. Nobody wants to watch a game that involves no contact.... It's just.... boring =D

Yeah, I would agree with you if there wasn't one small detail...

Stack Attack 2003

Nothing quite like four robots all racing at full power to be the king of the hill.

[MasterChief 573]

I understand and I hold no grudge, its just rough to go out like that.

[DDAwg3]

I agree w/ the original posting that there has been a continous amount of overly agressive play, and there was initially a glimmer of hope during explanation of the rules this year that they actually might uphold them.....however it has gone by wayside of an idle threat -such as parents telling their children...one more time and no TV.

However in the two regionals (Granite State & UTC) we participated they waited until the last of the qualifiers o issue any. In the UTC it was in the next to the last match and one I felt a match too late. Example : A team (# 181 which had been playing well and scoring effeciently throughout the tourney. They got tipped over and another high scoring machine needing to place one more tube for the wrap around. But in between that and them was robot 181 laying with it's arm in a vunerable position. Team X from a good distance slammed & pushed it's way thru and in the process broke 181's device.

If any instance I thought should been a place for restraint that would have been one. Our Robot was custom fabricated and welded aluminum frame consisting of 1" x 1" and 1" x 3" tibing w/ .13" wall. This is fairly strong members and we have three considerable deformations of certain members that took quite a bit of force to dent/bend.

Unfortunately when FIRST does start to try and control the situations I hope they don't swing the other way of the spectrum.

[clean399]

I was at the LA regional and I was the captain of the alliance with 1138 and 1622. 1138 was given a yellow card a people have said in this match but the reason they gave me was not because of rough play they said that 1138's robot was on the other alliances ramp during end game. I am not sure if 1138 was disabled I have heard that they were in which case they could not control their robot during that time period. I think FIRST has a hard time controling what is considered illegal or rough play like when our team went to Annapolis last year there were dozens of ramming violations handed out but when we got to Las vegas and Atlanta we did not see one handed out I think all of the refs are different and you just have to play as clean as possible because you don't know how the judges will react.

[Lifelessimp]

On the subject of tipping, I feel that as long as the hit is in the bumper zone, it is ok. If a team builds a robot that is prone to tipping, then that is a problem with their robot.

There are a lot of variables that teams have to think about when building a robot, and building something robust should definitely be a large consideration. If you go outside of your footprint with an arm, and the arm gets hit, you shouldn't complain about it. Last year, our team was penalized when other robots hit our hopper when it was extended outside of our footprint. So, a big consideration went into our robot design this year to stay within our footprint as much as possible.

[clean399]

On the subject of tipping, I feel that as long as the hit is in the bumper zone, it is ok. If a team builds a robot that is prone to tipping, then that is a problem with their robot.


I totally agree with this I have had this happen where we were the pushing robot and I didn't realize how high the cg was on the other robot and they fell over. My contact would not have caused it if it was just bumping with a lower cg robot. The drivers should not be held responsible in occasions like these because they don't know how high the cg is on the other robot.

[GaryVoshol]

On the subject of tipping, I feel that as long as the hit is in the bumper zone, it is ok. If a team builds a robot that is prone to tipping, then that is a problem with their robot.

I totally agree with this I have had this happen where we were the pushing robot and I didn't realize how high the cg was on the other robot and they fell over. My contact would not have caused it if it was just bumping with a lower cg robot. The drivers should not be held responsible in occasions like these because they don't know how high the cg is on the other robot.

Both points are true. However, if you see your opponent teetering, you would be well-advised to back off, even from bumper-zone contact. If you continue to bump against a wobbly robot, your bot could be the reason that it finally went over, and then you could be charged with tipping. It will all depend on what the ref saw each of your bots doing.

[Jeff K.]

I was at the LA regional and I was the captain of the alliance with 1138 and 1622. 1138 was given a yellow card a people have said in this match but the reason they gave me was not because of rough play they said that 1138's robot was on the other alliances ramp during end game. I am not sure if 1138 was disabled I have heard that they were in which case they could not control their robot during that time period.

We were disabled because our arm was working randomly, much like at Boilermaker. We were trying to bring the arm back in and not hit other robots with it. A ref warned us, and as she was yelling at us and we were standing still, another robot ran into our arm. She then disabled us for that robot running into us. After we were disabled, we were dragged into the other alliance's home zone.

About tipping, teams should realize that there are consequences with certain designs of bots. If a team were to tip us over, I would not be mad, as it was our fault as much as theirs. If they were to hit us in the bumper zone legally, and we started wobbling, but then we didn't back up away from them and we tipped over, it would be our fault. If a team though were to hit out of the bumper zone, such as hit up high and tip over a robot, then that's a different story.

[Nica F.]

About tipping, teams should realize that there are consequences with certain designs of bots. If a team were to tip us over, I would not be mad, as it was our fault as much as theirs. If they were to hit us in the bumper zone legally, and we started wobbling, but then we didn't back up away from them and we tipped over, it would be our fault. If a team though were to hit out of the bumper zone, such as hit up high and tip over a robot, then that's a different story.

I second that notion

[Doug G]

Yeah, I would agree with you if there wasn't one small detail...

Stack Attack 2003

Nothing quite like four robots all racing at full power to be the king of the hill.
The first year of Autonomous and frankly I think one of the best. Just about everyone could make some kind of autonomous play and it was the one of the coolest parts of the matches.

On to Yellow cards and Penalties....

In SF2.2 at the Bayou regional, 118 got a 10 pt penalty for ramming. It was so minor, it took us a while to figure why they got the penalty and when it occured. In the next match SF2.3 our alliance's robot was pushed of the ramp and then as they sat halfed tipped over, they were pushed by the opposing alliance again until tipped completely over and off the ramp - no call, no flag, no penalty :( It's tough to be a ref and I'm glad I don't do it - but it sounds like the participants/customers of FIRST would like to see more consistency. I think it's wrong to expect perfect refs, and I hope we are gracious enough to move on no matter what the call. But...

So what kind of solutions could be in place for next year? I was thinking maybe FIRST could offer refs a training DVD where certain calls are explained and example videos shown. The refs that volunteer could have that the week before they ref and then when they hold their Referree meeting on Thursday before a competition, they have more background to draw on and the meeting will have more meaning and relevance. I know last year - they had volunteers show up on Friday at the Davis-Sacramento Regional and ended up have them ref with very little background training. Granted they weren't the head ref, but still. Oh heck, FIRST could put a E-Mail Blast out to teams to make a Referree Training Video and could pick the best one.

[galewind]

Yellow carding, bumper zones, and contact rules, obviously can lead to a debate, as is evident, about whether or not FIRST is trying to prevent defensive play.

Points have been made about bumpers being a sign that FIRST does, in fact, want to see some good defensive play. I believe that this is definitely the case.

Sometimes, many of us forget about our rookie experience, or perhaps that one season where we didn't have a technical mentor to help us out, and so the machine was designed and built with nothing but hand tools. This can often lead to a machine that is unreliable at best.

FIRST knows that the challenge that they give us is HARD, and want to make it possible for all teams to participate, regardless of the resources available to them. Some teams come with modular drive systems that can be snapped out and snapped back into place, while others need to borrow a wrench to tighten their kitbot frame. Some teams can design and build robust, elaborate devices to elegantly accomplish the goals in the challenge, while for others, the challenge is getting a machine that can move, and do it in less than 120 lbs.

FIRST's decision to create and enforce bumper and collision rules allow less-advantaged teams to be both protected and give them the chance to try to be effective, while at the same time protecting the more advantaged teams from teams whose only recourse is to drive around as a box-on-wheels. I'm sure that FIRST knows that rules like these are difficult to enforce, and that their interpretation will be inconsistent. However, they are trying to send a message to teams that even if their arm breaks, or they couldn't build one due to time or financial limitations, their robots are legitimate and worthy of competing on the field. And by legitimizing defense, they are also trying to set boundaries on what is appropriate and what is not.

As per the "carding" system, while I believe that the warnings and disqualifications are appropriate, I am personally not a fan of the yellow flag stigma that allegedly sticks with the team for the remainder of the competition (I say allegedly because I didn't witness it at NJ or UTC). My major grief with it is that this could cause an unnecessary "branding" to a team that may have been involved in a non-deliberate situation, or perhaps a defensive move that may not have MEANT to have been catastrophic, but due to circumstances on the field or with the opposing machine, was.

Understandably, this is quite possibly why refs have actually been hesitant to hand them out, except under extreme circumstances.

Sorry, my post is all over the place -- it's been a LONG week (surprisingly one without a regional for me).

[Henry_Mareck]

After reading throught this thread, it seems only one team, 843, had offically been given a red card, and 1683, (unofficially?) when two robots were inadvertantly tipped by them in a match.
We, team 418, were recently given a red card at Lone Star because it appeared that we were trying to tip another robot. What actually happend was that they managed to get their front end up on top of one end of our robot and our attempt to free ourself was mis-intrepreted.
The scuffle ended with a red card and our main battery unplugged by their robot, pulled off by the other team in their sucessful attempt to get off of our robot and their robot completley unharmed.
So, two or three red cards so far, anyone know of any others?

[EricH]

LSR semi 2 was rough play. Period. Four rounds with lots of tough defense in each. Watch the rounds and you'll see what I mean.

[Stephen Kowski]

I have to say im surprised how rough it got. We had defense played on us in peachtree, but in palmetto it was absolutely brutal. I think some teams can back me up on this (1251, 343, etc) but overall I was really surprised the beating we took at this regional. I'm not really looking forward to the Championship if the beating is going to be anything similar.

I mean it was so bad in practice matches thursday, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice here we were triple, I'll repeat TRIPLE, defended when it was 2 vs 3.

[pakratt1991]

I was suprised at how few yellow cards were actually given,
the only reason one was given at Davis was after a robot tipped 2 on our alliance. Then the next match they started doing it again and then they were given the yellow card. NOT when they tipped two of our robots... it's not like we are prone to tipping, neiter of the teams that were on their side had EVER been their before.

[Travis Hoffman]

I mean it was so bad in practice matches thursday, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice here we were triple, I'll repeat TRIPLE, defended when it was 2 vs 3.

Not knowing how appropriate or excessive the defense was, keep in mind that defensive teams have a right to practice their methods on Thursday as much as the scoring teams do. One would hope opposing alliances would cooperate to let all teams involved practice what they want to practice during Thursday matches without causing any robot damage.

48 and 1114's spirited practice match on Thursday at Greater Toronto is one example. We defend them "vigorously" in the first session, then we back off in the second session, let them score, then let them deploy their ramp in our home zone, and finally climb them so they can check on a new ramp feature. This is how the Thursday matches should be - have all six teams strategize together for maximum mutual benefit.

[Jared Russell]

Yesterday at the Philly Regional we saw a RED CARD! And it came without a yellow card preceding it.

Our robot had tipped, and another team gave it a bit of a (hard) shove. Was it intentional? I really don't think so. Needless to say, we were shocked at the result.

Luckily the red card didn't change the result of the match (which was in the semi-finals), but if it had (or if it had eliminated the alliance from the competition) I would have been really upset.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I mean it was so bad in practice matches thursday, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice here we were triple, I'll repeat TRIPLE, defended when it was 2 vs 3.

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game.

Imagine if they didn't defend you during practice and you thought you could put 6 ringers on and once you got to the real game and they did defend and you found out that under real defense you could only score 1. Wouldn't you want to know this BEFORE the real matches started?

JMHO

[Stephen Kowski]

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game.

Imagine if they didn't defend you during practice and you thought you could put 6 ringers on and once you got to the real game and they did defend and you found out that under real defense you could only score 1. Wouldn't you want to know this BEFORE the real matches started?

JMHO

I knew how many I could put on with defense when we won peachtree two weeks earlier.....to defend my team heavily for two straight sessions and then one of the teams backing off only to make room so they can ramp up to ram us at high speed on thursday when they can't be penalized for it.....i won't thank them for it....to come across the field around the rack to ram us at high speed.....i won't thank them.....i don't appreciate other teams doing things against the rules on thursday because they can....

[Kelly]

I noticed that the refs were even less likely to issue penalties during the tournament. During our last semi-final match one of our opponents was ramming us so hard their robot wound up on top of ours and the ref didn't penalize them.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I knew how many I could put on with defense when we won peachtree two weeks earlier.....to defend my team heavily for two straight sessions and then one of the teams backing off only to make room so they can ramp up to ram us at high speed on thursday when they can't be penalized for it.....i won't thank them for it....to come across the field around the rack to ram us at high speed.....i won't thank them.....i don't appreciate other teams doing things against the rules on thursday because they can....

I cannot comment on any particular hit, but I've found that most hits that happen in practice, also happen in compitition. I've also found that since the bumper rules were in force (since last year) the referees are allowing much more physical contact between the robots (which I think make for a better game ... from a publics viewpoint).

I've also found that the definition of "high-speed" ramming is different from referee to referee.

My suggestion is to expect High-speed rams (your definition) to happen and just accept it. Complaining about it (either during compitition or in practice) does little good. The referees have a feel for what they consider a high-speed ram, and they will enforce the rule to that 'feel'.

I'll tell you now, my team has a defensive ramp-robot. As such, a bit of hard hitting (not ramming from the other side of the field) should be, and is, expected. I've asked my driver to hit the corners of the opposing robots so as to spin them. I have tried ro emphisize that we do not want to hurt the other robot, just not allow an easy shot at the rack.

You may consider defense unfair because it does not allow you to score. We consider each score that you cannot make a score for us. And we need to practice that defense as much as you need to practice your offense.

I am sorry that you feel that the defense played against your robot was too much. I agree that referees should be there during practice matches, so that teams get the idea of what is a penalty and what is not. But I completely disagree with you that defensive robots should just avoid you because you are having a hard time scoring during practice, and I think you should consider it a prelude to what you will see on the field.

Again, the above is JMHO

[Stephen Kowski]

I've also found that the definition of "high-speed" ramming is different from referee to referee.

My suggestion is to expect High-speed rams (your definition) to happen and just accept it. Complaining about it (either during compitition or in practice) does little good. The referees have a feel for what they consider a high-speed ram, and they will enforce the rule to that 'feel'.

Well since you weren't there from what I gather and probably do not know what happened I will assume that you do not know that the referees DID talk with the team after the match because THEY felt it was unnecessary. I find my 'feel' is pretty accurate since I have been a referee and know how they call it.


You may consider defense unfair because it does not allow you to score.

I may, I may not, since I never discussed the fairness I guess you don't really know. Like I said I was surprised.....that was my comment, please don't respond to things you are inferring in my posts.

[Otaku]

Out of the two regionals I went to (and being on a team that played really rough), I've only seen one yellow flag, and that was at UC Davis in the Elimination rounds.

I mean, my team pushed 1280 into the rack then kept pushing (and turned the rack) at SVR and never got penalized.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Well since you weren't there from what I gather and probably do not know what happened I will assume that you do not know that the referees DID talk with the team after the match because THEY felt it was unnecessary. I find my 'feel' is pretty accurate since I have been a referee and know how they call it.


As I saud, I didn't see the particular hit that you are discussing. I have seen many full field rams (especially last year) that were not called, and a number of ticky-tack hits that were called. I refuse to make this a bash the ref's because they have a very tough job and they will call it as they see. It's part of the game, and you need to move on.

I will also state that the agressive play has not always been on the defensive side this year. We have been rammed into the rack many times while trying to defend the rack from an agressive offensive robot.


I may, I may not, since I never discussed the fairness I guess you don't really know. Like I said I was surprised.....that was my comment, please don't respond to things you are inferring in my posts.

I will agree that I've seen some hits that I have been surprised that fouls / flags were not given. That being said I believe the referees are doing a great job balancing the fouls given with 'letting them play'.

Unfortunately, every once in a while, an uncalled for hit will not get penalized. The ref's are human. It is my hope that those that did it come over afterwards and make sure your robot is all right (I know we've done gone over to make sure they were still alright when during the pushing match someone got caught up in the rack).

[EmoMike]

During the finals a team (not saying what one) got red carded for intentionally tipping one of out alliance partners.

[Stvn]

I need to find a picture of our bumpers. The fabric is ripped and torn, and the pool tubes look like someone took a bite out of them. And not just a small nibble, either. A full-scale, meal-sized bite.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I need to find a picture of our bumpers. The fabric is ripped and torn, and the pool tubes look like someone took a bite out of them. And not just a small nibble, either. A full-scale, meal-sized bite.

At least yours was in 1 piece :yikes:

We broke our front bumper in half ....... twice. :ahh:

Neither was the result of a ram, both were done by the force of 2 robots, with high traction, pushing against each other. And it was glorious :D

[spinmunky]

I need to find a picture of our bumpers. The fabric is ripped and torn, and the pool tubes look like someone took a bite out of them. And not just a small nibble, either. A full-scale, meal-sized bite.

oh the carnage! lol, our bumpers did take quite a beating. the front two and rear bumpers look fine, only our side bumbers were torn. Bots were trying to tip us I think. Cause they found out that if were were hit from the side we wobbled a bit, a couple times they got under us doing that (their bumpers under ours)

[EricH]

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game. Particularly if they ask you first. During L.A. practice, we had a round against 188. Before the first of the two matches, they came over and asked if we would mind if they played defense on us. We said to go for it. I think both teams had fun that round, with us trying to score and 188 playing defense--it was just about as good as a real match for both teams.

Defenders, if you want to practice your defense on Thursday, it would help to ask first so the team(s) you want to practice on can tell you whether or not they want defense. (It also removes nasty surprises--they're ready, so they can protect vital parts of their robot.)

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Defenders, if you want to practice your defense on Thursday, it would help to ask first so the team(s) you want to practice on can tell you whether or not they want defense. (It also removes nasty surprises--they're ready, so they can protect vital parts of their robot.)

Agreed, but it should not be limited to defenders. You should always talk to the other teams out there during practice. Tell them what you plan on doing, and what you are expecting.

You'll find that most teams are willing to accomodate.

[efoote868]

At BMR we had 2 incidents where we were tipped over. The first time was a shear accident, where we backed up, and went forward, causing our robot to tip a bit... when an opposing robot contacted us underneath our kicker wheel. The result was that we immediately tipped over. During that match, we didn't have our wheelie wheels on our robot; the situation was purely accidental.

That team received a yellow card :mad: , and after reviewing the tapes, my team came with the general consensus that the team didn't deserve it at all.

The second occasion, we had our wheelie wheels on, and as we were trying to score, a team hit us, knocking us backwards, over our wheelie wheels, and sticking us in a position at a severe angle to the ground. We wouldn't have gone all the way over, except for the fact that the other team spent at least 30 seconds, repeatedly backing up and hitting us. It wasn't until they pushed a significant amount that we toppled. They didn't receive any penalties for their actions.

The refs explained that we were "in a position to score", even though we pretty much disabled at that point, and could in no way score. It was pretty disappointing.

[Jeff Pahl]

Defenders, if you want to practice your defense on Thursday, it would help to ask first so the team(s) you want to practice on can tell you whether or not they want defense. (It also removes nasty surprises--they're ready, so they can protect vital parts of their robot.)
Agreed, but it should not be limited to defenders. You should always talk to the other teams out there during practice. Tell them what you plan on doing, and what you are expecting.

You'll find that most teams are willing to accomodate.

I know we frequently do not have the bumpers on the robot during the first few practice matches on Thursday, either because we are trying to get to inspection between matches and need to save time, or because we are using the practice match time to fine tune the operation of our robot. Either way, we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first.

Also, since we don't own a piece of field carpeting due to financial and space limitations, those first couple of practice matches are very valuable to us in terms of our operators learning how the robot drives differently on the field than it did in the room we practice in at the school. It's really hard to do that while someone is running into you.

[MrForbes]

... it's not like we are prone to tipping, neiter of the teams that were on their side had EVER been their before.

I guess you just have never been to Davis before :) last year our bot was on it's side many times...so this year we built a mostly untippable robot.

I just watched the QF 1-1 match, where you and 100 both were tipped. It looks to me like both of those robots are indeed prone to tipping. They have relatively narrow, short drive bases, and wheels/treads that are not very stable. Plus 997 is sort of top heavy, even though your ramp material is light weight, there is a lot of it, and it extends up pretty far when the ramps are not deployed.

Thanks again to you, 100, and 1458 for the most exciting QF series we've ever seen! Team 1726 wishes you all the best in Atlanta...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I know we frequently do not have the bumpers on the robot during the first few practice matches on Thursday, either because we are trying to get to inspection between matches and need to save time, or because we are using the practice match time to fine tune the operation of our robot. Either way, we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first.

Also, since we don't own a piece of field carpeting due to financial and space limitations, those first couple of practice matches are very valuable to us in terms of our operators learning how the robot drives differently on the field than it did in the room we practice in at the school. It's really hard to do that while someone is running into you.

I'm going to play a little devils' advocate here, because this bothers me a bit.

1> Do you really believe that your parctice time is more valuble then the defensive team across the way?
2> Do you believe that you need to practice driving on the carpet more then they do?
3> Do you believe that they don't need to know how their robot will react when interacting with other robots?

There is a reason it is called a practice MATCH, and not just practice. You should come to the field EXPECTING a MATCH. If your robot is not ready for the field (no bumpers, etc), why would you ask the other team to not practice the strategy that they came with???

I do agree that teams need to talk before practice matches, but that being said i believe it is not fair to ask a team to not practice what they would do in a match just because you are not ready. It's like asking an offensive tubing robot to not touch the rack or a ramp-bot to not deploy it's ramps just because you are not ready for that yet.


Sorry for the rant. The above is JM(NS)HO

[Jeff Pahl]

You missed the important part of my statement: "we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first."

Practicing defense is fine. However, ramming another robot during a practice match because that's your entire strategy with your "kitbot brick" when they are not expecting it and causing them damage, has made me very unhappy on a Thursday, and made for a long afternoon of repair. The whole point of the post was "ask first". There are two matches each practice round. We are always happy to let someone practice defense on us for one of the two, as long as we are expecting it. But don't pin us into a corner for both matches, we'd like to practice offense for one of them.

[Dave Flowerday]

1> Do you really believe that your parctice time is more valuble then the defensive team across the way?
Do you really believe that the other robots are on the field just so you can bang on them? Do you really believe that you have some sort of "right" to pound on them just because you're on the field at the same time?

Is it the fault of "offensive" teams that you require a robot to play defense on and they don't?

I really hope if someone tells you ahead of a practice match that they'd prefer that you not play defense on them that you'd respect their wishes. Some teams are working out bugs in their scoring mechanisms and want a chance to practice with it. Of course it will be harder to score when being defended, but that doesn't mean that undefended practice time is not valuable.

The fact that your team requires another team to practice against is your problem, not theirs.

[yodameister]

Bots were trying to tip us I think. Cause they found out that if were were hit from the side we wobbled a bit, a couple times they got under us doing that (their bumpers under ours)

I can tell you at least from my position on the field as we were trying to come up with a defece against you in the Quarters at Davis, there was NO talk of trying to tip you guys (or 997). Defend, yes. Tip, no. Although I am not in the mind of the drivers, I feel confident that there was no intentional tipping. On a side note, I want to congradulate 100, 997, and 1458 for providing us, the crowd and everyone watching through webcast probably the best elims ever. and also congrats to you guys for the eventual win.

[Travis Hoffman]

Do you really believe that the other robots are on the field just so you can bang on them? Do you really believe that you have some sort of "right" to pound on them just because you're on the field at the same time?


Yes, if it is legal bumper zone contact, with some restraint added in considering the situation, and it serves a strategic purpose - preventing opponents from scoring tubes. I agree with the previous posters - they don't call them practice MATCHES for nothing, and you are going to face an amplified version of such contact in the qualifying rounds, so whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.



Is it the fault of "offensive" teams that you require a robot to play defense on and they don't?



No. I fully blame the GDC...........KIDDING DAVE!!!! :ahh:

Defense is allowed per the rules. It will be played during practice matches per the rules.

Offensive robots require game pieces supplied by FIRST.

For defensive robots, our opponents are the game pieces we are permitted to manipulate per the rules.



I really hope if someone tells you ahead of a practice match that they'd prefer that you not play defense on them that you'd respect their wishes. Some teams are working out bugs in their scoring mechanisms and want a chance to practice with it. Of course it will be harder to score when being defended, but that doesn't mean that undefended practice time is not valuable.


I'd prefer a compromise - if they had a hobbled mechanism or looked rickety or "tippy", I'd probably leave them alone for the bulk of the session. But if it were a stronger team with no visible signs of robot problems, I'd prefer to test my skills against them. Of course, I'd allocate half the time to let anyone practice their offense unimpeded, but I'd expect the same courtesy coming back the other way, with the understanding the defense wouldn't get too rough (unless you asked for it intentionally - I love offensive teams with that particular mentality :)) .


The fact that your team requires another team to practice against is your problem, not theirs.

The fact that teams don't put bumpers on their robots during practice MATCHES is their problem, not the defenders'!

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Do you really believe that the other robots are on the field just so you can bang on them? Do you really believe that you have some sort of "right" to pound on them just because you're on the field at the same time?


First off, please do not assume that playing defense requires 'Banging' and 'Pounding'. Our drivers practice pushing and rotating the opponent. And for that we do need practice.


Is it the fault of "offensive" teams that you require a robot to play defense on and they don't?


Is it the fault of the 'Defensive' team that you need to use the rack that we are practicing to defend? ;)


I really hope if someone tells you ahead of a practice match that they'd prefer that you not play defense on them that you'd respect their wishes. Some teams are working out bugs in their scoring mechanisms and want a chance to practice with it. Of course it will be harder to score when being defended, but that doesn't mean that undefended practice time is not valuable.


We do talk to all the teams out on the field, before the practice matches (Yes, matches). We tell them exactly what we want to do. Teams that have specific bugs that need to be worked out are left alone if they ask (this is standard policy). However, I believe that our practice time is just as valuble as the other teams. Would you accept not scoring ringers because we wanted to practice driving defense without interference on your side of the field? I doubt it. So again, I ask, why do you believe that 'offensive' teams have the right to tell defensive teams that they cannot practice the strategy they want to play?



The fact that your team requires another team to practice against is your problem, not theirs.

The fact that yours needs the rack that we are practicing our defense of is yours ;)

The biggest thing is to talk to the other teams during practice matches, and remember that the other team (offensive or defensive) needs to practice their part too. Do not 'exclude' some team just because their strategy interferes with yours.

[Dave Flowerday]

First off, please do not assume that playing defense requires 'Banging' and 'Pounding'. Our drivers practice pushing and rotating the opponent. And for that we do need practice.
It'd be great to see a bunch of teams start refusing to attend practice rounds when a team on the opposing alliance insists on playing "defense" on them the whole time. After all, if you're not going to let them score anyway why should they bother?

I know I'm not going to get you to change your opinion but you won't change mine either. I personally feel that spending a whole practice round (look at the agendas - they're never called "practice matches") harassing another team who is just trying to get their robot functions down is uncool. But whatever, each is entitled to their opinions.

Maybe someday a traditionally "offensive" team with a strong drivetrain will simply pin you in a corner for the whole practice round and then you can decide how well you like that.

[JaneYoung]

Well, here's a question for Thursday practice rounds.
Our refs at LSR were out on the field but they were dressed in tee shirts, not the official black and stripe shirts.

How tough can it get as far as defense practicing on Thursday?

We (418) typically like to use Thursday to tweak and prepare.
There were several robots (rookie teams come to mind) that needed that day to get themselves ready for the matches and don't need the hassle unless asked.

Jane

Edit: maybe if there is space available at the different venues, a practice area could be set up for defensive practice and you could sign up for it. Or have a couple of sessions that are open to practice and to defensive practice and teams are aware of it...I agree that practice day on Thursday doesn't need a bunch of rules developed for it, it should be a day of preparation as each team needs to prepare.

[Travis Hoffman]

Maybe someday a traditionally "offensive" team with a strong drivetrain will simply pin you in a corner for the whole practice round and then you can decide how well you like that.

That would be against the pinning rules. Bad form! Bad form! :D

But heck, I'd love to see it attempted, if the rules are followed - it would provide valuable intel about that robot's drivetrain capabilities compared to the defender's. I like fewer surprises come qualifying time. And I'm sure the bored to death scouters sitting in the stands on Thursday would enjoy the friendly melee and the additional information it provided.

[ALIBI]

I witnessed many "defensive" robots practice on other robots. Many times I saw hits that in normal match play would have resulted in yellow and red cards. How many teams out there have had there robots damaged by agressive defensive robots during the practice matches? We did, missed about three practice matches. Who out there really wants that to happen to anyone's robot during practice matches, or any matches as far as that goes? We hold no grudge and the other team felt really bad.

If you are planing on practicing defense, talk to the other alliance, do not talk at them. If they do not wish to have defense played on them, please leave them alone, there was an earlier post where it seemed like the defensve robot thought that they were entitled to practice defense on another robot just because they are there as long as they "TELL" them that is what they were going to do. Sorry, I don't think you have a right to tell them that you plan on pushing them around while they may have other things they need to work on. Perhaps you could practice defense on a robot in your own alliance. During most matches I am certain that you could with permission find a robot to practice defense on. We are a hybrid and we practiced moderate defense and offense during the PRACTICE matches. If you were to ask us if you could play moderate defense on us we would have most certainly said yes. We wanted to see how well our robot could score with defense being played on us and appreciated teams that played moderate defense on us. We even had a robot from the opposing alliance climb our ramps in practice. The key is communication and keep the defensive practice civil. It really comes down to GP and respect. Many times during practice matches I could not believe how tough the defense became and thinking, Gees, this is only practice. We have the opportinity to keep the practice matches civil. The last thing we need are another bunch of rules for practice matches.

[Lil' Lavery]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45529&highlight=Practice+match
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45444&highlight=defense+practice

A defensive bot can practice in a number of ways. Defend alliance partners, defend other defensive bots, practice interference, practice willing offensive bots, but never, ever defend a bot that doesn't wish to be defended. Nor should any bot ever commit a penalty during a practice match. Even if it would just be a 10 point penalty during a qualification match, it shouldn't happen ever during practice. Rough play is intolerable.
I remember once in 2006 we went to a practice match without our bumpers.... and left the field with a 1" dent in our frame. Welded 1"x1"x1/8" aluminum channel. In another, our control box suffered it's first ever failure due to rough play (something that hadn't happened in the 7 previous competitions [including off-seasons] it had competed in, and hasn't happened since). That's frankly, not acceptable.

[Travis Hoffman]

I witnessed many "defensive" robots practice on other robots. Many times I saw hits that in normal match play would have resulted in yellow and red cards.

Don't the referees need practice on Thursday, too? Shouldn't they be overseeing the "simulated" matches which follow the same timing as regular ones and calling them per the rules? Shouldn't they be watching out for and pointing out examples of over the top hitting or visibly counting out pinning counts? Ya really shouldn't be leaving the determination of what is and isn't appropriate defense up to the teams on Thursday, especially when some teams are attending their first events and haven't experienced anything like it before.

[kawelch]

There are reasons for practice day to have TWO matches. I'll leave you alone in the first match if we can knock bumpers in the second. Last year my team tried something different with the sides of our bot and in the first practice match we were peeled like an orange. We spent the rest of the day improvising a new outer skin. I'm GLAD it happened on Thursday and not Friday because we didn't miss a single Qualifing match.

[Kymber]

Well, here's a question for Thursday practice rounds.
Our refs at LSR were out on the field but they were dressed in tee shirts, not the official black and stripe shirts.

How tough can it get as far as defense practicing on Thursday?

We (418) typically like to use Thursday to tweak and prepare.
There were several robots (rookie teams come to mind) that needed that day to get themselves ready for the matches and don't need the hassle unless asked.

Jane

Edit: maybe if there is space available at the different venues, a practice area could be set up for defensive practice and you could sign up for it. Or have a couple of sessions that are open to practice and to defensive practice and teams are aware of it...I agree that practice day on Thursday doesn't need a bunch of rules developed for it, it should be a day of preparation as each team needs to prepare.


FIRST does not require Refs to be there until Friday, our refs come out early to get a bit of an understanding about how the game is played and see if there is anything they need to be aware of. As far as another practice area, that is really not a valid option for most regionals because that would require not only more space but more volunteers to man that field. This would be an issue for most regionals since a majority of the volunteers that are not in key positions are students and would not be able to handle the field. As a volunteer who has never been attached to a team I can say that it seems to me that defense would be just as important as offense since robots are built to do different things. Practice matches are really no different than seeding matches except that they do not count in your seeding points. I know that at Lone Star teams practice both because they will use both in the seeding matches.

[AcesPease]

Don't the referees need practice on Thursday, too? Shouldn't they be overseeing the "simulated" matches which follow the same timing as regular ones and calling them per the rules? Shouldn't they be watching out for and pointing out examples of over the top hitting or visibly counting out pinning counts? Ya really shouldn't be leaving the determination of what is and isn't appropriate defense up to the teams on Thursday, especially when teams are attending their first events and haven't experienced anything like it before.

I watched Team 48 practice and although it was definitely defense until the end of the round, I saw nothing I would call rough play. They have a right to practice their game during practice rounds, period.

On the other hand, it sounds like some sort of Refereeing to stop high speed ramming and tipping of robots during practice rounds is called for. In past years we have been the recipients of some nasty uncalled for high speed impacts in practice, these would be penalized in a regular round, they should not be tolerated during practice.

[The Lucas]

The key is communication. Communicate what you want to do in the practice round to your partners and opponents; make sure everyone is ok with it. If their robot/drivers are not ready for contact, respect their wishes. They should welcome the contact when they are ready for it (maybe next match), if not it is their loss. The Rack and the field are communal property to be shared (if you want to hit the Rack you don't need anyone's permission), but the robots on the field are property of their respective teams. Noone wants to spend hours repairing their robot after practice round damage and missing more practice time. Thursday is about making progress and getting ready for competition, not suffering unnecessary setbacks.

If inter-team communication fails FIRST is going to start making rules because this is an issue every year. Maybe something equivalent to a redshirt on a QB in football practice. Heck we could make it a White Flag, that would be humorous. Hit the bot with the white flag get temporarily disabled. I don't want it to come to something like that so just communicate and be respectfully out there.

[efoote868]

My mentor made the point that FRC is (loosely) based off of sports, although
FRC is lacking many of the things that mainstream sports do.

So, looking at the mainstream sports, like basketball, the players are protected when they are on the field. It is against the rules to make contact with another player while they are shooting a basket.

Or football, for instance. There are many different rules set up to protect players, like face masking, roughing the kicker, unnecessary roughness, etc. The list goes on (well, except maybe ultimate fighting or rugby... those don't seem to have many rules).

Really, compared to last year, this year has a few more rules protecting robots, and FIRST seems to get better and better about rules protecting robots. From '05 to '06, wedges were disallowed, and bumpers were introduced. From '06 to present, yellow cards were introduced, and ramming was more clearly defined.

Whatever FIRST lacks in rules protecting robots really should be made up for by GP. Yes, its allowed to play defense on a robot, but how much is too much? What I would like to see happen are teams recognizing that the best defense is a good offense, and begin designing their robots accordingly.

[Cyberguy34000]

In Colorado the refs were fairly judicious with the penalties. The most common penalty was teams forgetting to get out of the end zone during the endgame. No yellow flags, but since most of the matches were fairly low scoring those penalties tended to sway the game. Even though at our regional the game was mostly defensive, not many of the teams had enough mass on their robots to really do a lot of damage to each other. The most damage I saw was from teams going up ramps or lifts and falling off.

There was a fun bit where we were partnered with team 1375 who had a ramp, and team 1977 who's arm had bent/broken early in the day, they were playing exclusively defensive with their omni drive :D, surprisingly they did quite well at getting in between opponents and the rack. Since they had omni, they couldn't climb the ramp, but we really needed that 30 point bonus so our team agreed to try and push them up.

Last 20 seconds of the game, 1375 deploys the ramp, they line up at the base, we come up behind, we tap them, the crowd cheers, they go, up, they go up... and then we push them a little too hard to the side and they slam almost upside down, straight into the carpet, their omni wheels in the air spinning wildly.

We felt really bad about it, but they thought it was really funny, joked about perhaps we might have bent their arm back the other way so it might start working again. All ends well I guess :)

The big robot on the regional winning alliance (1583), which was basically just a box frame with a GIANT extra tall/long diamond plate ramp, they did very well at defensive, probibly the most aggressive team on the field, many robots got quite a beating from them, but it was all good because they were so gracious about helping them repair the damage afterwards.

Colorado Regional is always a treat.

-Chris

[Travis Hoffman]

What I would like to see happen are teams recognizing that the best defense is a good offense, and begin designing their robots accordingly.

I'm inclined to think, based upon its widespread success this year, that the best offense is a good defense and a solid 2 @ 12 ramp design for the end game. But that's a debate for another thread.

If FIRST wants to eliminate defense, they can write it into the rules, but they haven't the past 2 years. They did so in 2005, and all that year really boiled down to was was the offensive powerhouses gaining more ranking points as the lesser-equipped offensive teams tried their best to keep up with the scoring but ultimately failed. Not having a viable defensive option, they were left with little else to do. I applaud FIRST and the GDC for providing multiple scoring options this year (tubes and ramp/lifts), as well as the presence of defense, which present different levels of design challenge that are accessible to any team.

Defense levels the playing field and makes a game more accessible and exciting for E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E. That includes the practice day. I thank the GDC for recognizing its importance this season and hope they continue to permit its existence in future game designs. I also implore the refs to maintain a healthy balance between offensive and defensive gameplay on the field, including on Thursday, so that all teams can enjoy employing their robot strategies without fear of damage or abuse.