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burkechrs1
03-11-2007, 01:50 PM
I've never seen so much complaining about a FIRST game in the 4 years I've been a part of FIRST. It seems like everyone is finding "something" wrong with the game this year and complaining. Everywhere you look there's "This rule sucks" or "The randomizer sucks" or "There were no yellow cards called when they hit us..." To me it just sounds like a lot of sore losing. FIRST isn't about winning. And francly it really shouldn't matter if you played the same team 5 times in one regional. Yea, it could probabaly get annoying, but flaming FIRST on CD about how they have "made mistakes" is no way to solve problems. It's basically like going and talking smack about someone when they aren't there to defend themselves. I know everyone here doesn't intend to flame FIRST but that's what it's turning into. After every regional there is always a thread of what needs to be changed or what went wrong. Seriously, we should stop. It's to late to change rules now, so there is no use in complaining about them. IMO, if you lost a round because of a rule you dont agree on, then change your strategy and win the next match anyway. That's how you prove you have a good robot/team, not by complaining and trying to put someone to blame. So from now on I say we all stop flaming and pointing out what went wrong or what bad calls were made and start pointing out how much fun we all have at the regionals and what FIRST actually has done for us. Because it isn't that easy to put on a flawless event with no issues and I think FIRST deserves waaaaay more credit than we give them.

Just my .02.

burkechrs1
03-11-2007, 01:51 PM
And I just want to add, it's fine to discuss a rule but once it turns into somethingmore than clarification and into something about how the rule shouldn't even exist then it's gone to far...

Hope everyone's having fun. See ya'll at SVR!

jgannon
03-11-2007, 01:59 PM
There do seem to be more complaints this year than I'm used to, but it is important to keep in mind that while FIRST is a game, it is also a business, and we are its customers. When we find rules or occurances that are contrary to the deliverables of FIRST that we signed up and paid for, it is perfectly reasonable to complain. Getting crushed by the same team all day is not very inspirational. A sudden rule change that makes it substantially more difficult to finish your robot is not very inspirational. Leaving students feeling that they were not treated fairly or consistently is not very inspirational. There is certainly some sore loser syndrome around here from time to time, but there are also a lot of legitimate complaints. It is perfectly reasonable to complain when you understand what you paid for and you didn't get it.

Andrew Blair
03-11-2007, 02:02 PM
Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

If a soccer tourney hires a particular ref to oversee all games, and he happens to be colorblind and make terrible decisions, causing all blue shirted teams to lose, should you simply say "he tried his best, guess we should go home"? Nope, you figure out the problem and fix it.

I do not support negative criticism. But constructive criticism is necessary to ensure fairness to all teams.

technoL
03-11-2007, 02:04 PM
What you may call complaining is usually constructive criticism. Often, reflections are made after the event so that changes can be made for the better in the future. Many important people read CD for suggestions and issues about FIRST and related events so that they can take input back to their regional planning committees.

Many times, this "complaining" also alerts the unaware of a situation that can be prevented. Now that it has been discussed in-depth about how tough inspection was this year, teams at future regionals will now know to get their robot inspected early to prevent any unfortunate events.

With the randomization of matches complaint, apparently someone took note of it, as I don't recall playing against the same teams over and over at the Florida Regional, which was the 2nd week. Even if we did, we were prepared for the worse after reading the thread about it.

Although it is tireless to read endless threads about dissatisfaction with rules and the game, it is helpful to teams to be able to vent, have someone hear their story, or at least know that someone shared the same experience.

CD isn't just a FIRST-worshiping forum, it's a place where teams come to discuss FIRST and the events related. Controversial rules and issues are discussed, which often lead to heated discussions, but I'm sure at the end of the day, everyone has the same goal, and there is usually not much negative associated with it. So if we just simply address all the good about an event and FIRST, with everything else pushed to the back burner and no criticism, I'm sure that a lot will go undone, and many preventable situations will occur.

-No L

nuggetsyl
03-11-2007, 02:43 PM
Am i reading this right. A post complaining about complaining:yikes:

sanddrag
03-11-2007, 02:52 PM
I wouldn't see it as complaining. I see it as problem finding, analysis, and repairing.

Perhaps the volume of that happening this year is indicative of broader happenings and trends.

zander_108
03-11-2007, 03:26 PM
Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

Well I very much agree with the problems that banebots has been causing teams. Our robot has been using the banebots 2-to-1 trannys and all they can do is give us headaches. They have broken 5 times, and The last one happened during the semi-finals of a match.. We broke out pits on the field, and in the end, were not able to compete any more. However, THANK YOU team voltage for subbing for us, giving us 2nd place.

John Neun
03-11-2007, 03:35 PM
Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

If a soccer tourney hires a particular ref to oversee all games, and he happens to be colorblind and make terrible decisions, causing all blue shirted teams to lose, should you simply say "he tried his best, guess we should go home"? Nope, you figure out the problem and fix it.

I do not support negative criticism. But constructive criticism is necessary to ensure fairness to all teams.

Very nicely said, Andy. We should not accept the unacceptable because we need to be "good sports." "Fair and professional" needs to be two-directional.

cziggy343
03-11-2007, 03:45 PM
but wat are you complaining about? is it a rule that your team lost a match and now think it's dumb? or is it something that affects everyone and causes everyone problems? i did hear about the banebots thing, and i agree that something like that should be complained about, but if it's just a rule that a small group of people don't like, then leave it be. the "random match" thing was a mistake. get used to it, all humans make mistakes. dont jump on people's back for mistakes like that.

thats my $0.02

burkechrs1
03-11-2007, 04:06 PM
That's what I mean. Constructive critism isn't complaining and the banebots issue needed to be brought up. Now it's when FIRST has addressed the issue and people continue to complain is when it gets outta hand. Bring up the issue and leave it at that. There is no more to be said once someone has brough it up.

And yes, I guess this was a thread complaining about people complaining =D

cziggy343
03-11-2007, 04:09 PM
yeah, but i still think that there has been lots of complaining over nothing, or something that doesn't really matter, at least more so than most years. which was pretty much your point, so i agree with you.

Jeremiah Johnson
03-11-2007, 04:16 PM
That's what I mean. Constructive critism isn't complaining and the banebots issue needed to be brought up. Now it's when FIRST has addressed the issue and people continue to complain is when it gets outta hand. Bring up the issue and leave it at that. There is no more to be said once someone has brough it up.

And yes, I guess this was a thread complaining about people complaining =D

Has FIRST addressed the randomizer problem? It was the same way last year, except now I see more people realizing that it's happening.

For some odd reason, I seem to think that FIRST actually likes to hear about people's problems in a constructive way. The actual "complaints" that I see are few and far between. There are people coming up with new ways to address an issue and then there are people telling their own run-ins with said issues. Neither are complaints.

That's my 4 half-pennies.

meaubry
03-11-2007, 04:28 PM
All,
I will not condone or not condone anyone that posts complaints, nor congrats, nor discussions, or anything.

I will condone allowing anyone that stays within our web forum rules, the right to write what they want to - again - as long as they do so with respect and within the rules.

It is okay to share your thoughts with others.

Sometimes people disagree and complain about stuff that others do not agree with, depending on the compliant it is reiterated at nauseum.
Sometimes the number of posts in agreement is an indication of something that needs to be addressed, during, or after the season is done.

That is okay - frankly, sometimes "things" do need to be discussed in order for change to occur.

So, it is okay to complain - just do so with care, and within the rules.

That is one of the benefits of forming a community of FIRST participants - everyone that wants is allowed to participate.

If the compliant has no merit - it usually gets ignored, and we all move on.

Mike Aubry
Chief Delphi

technoL
03-11-2007, 04:58 PM
yeah, but i still think that there has been lots of complaining over nothing, or something that doesn't really matter, at least more so than most years. which was pretty much your point, so i agree with you.

What you consider to be complaining over nothing or something that doesn't matter may be a very important issue to other teams. It is vital to look at the situation from all points of view before judging or at least publicly expressing your opinion.

MariaChristineK
03-11-2007, 07:44 PM
We are only "complaining" because we love FRC so much! We want to make it the best we can and in doing so we must fix anything that we feel detracts from the value of FRC. I am sure that the majority of people you believe to be complaining are simply frustrated with the situation and are offering constructive criticism. However, I can understand that we are sometimes irksome.

Frenchie
03-11-2007, 07:47 PM
I've never seen so much complaining about a FIRST game in the 4 years I've been a part of FIRST. It seems like everyone is finding "something" wrong with the game this year and complaining. Everywhere you look there's "This rule sucks" or "The randomizer sucks" or "There were no yellow cards called when they hit us..." To me it just sounds like a lot of sore losing. FIRST isn't about winning. And francly it really shouldn't matter if you played the same team 5 times in one regional. Yea, it could probabaly get annoying, but flaming FIRST on CD about how they have "made mistakes" is no way to solve problems. It's basically like going and talking smack about someone when they aren't there to defend themselves. I know everyone here doesn't intend to flame FIRST but that's what it's turning into. After every regional there is always a thread of what needs to be changed or what went wrong. Seriously, we should stop. It's to late to change rules now, so there is no use in complaining about them. IMO, if you lost a round because of a rule you dont agree on, then change your strategy and win the next match anyway. That's how you prove you have a good robot/team, not by complaining and trying to put someone to blame. So from now on I say we all stop flaming and pointing out what went wrong or what bad calls were made and start pointing out how much fun we all have at the regionals and what FIRST actually has done for us. Because it isn't that easy to put on a flawless event with no issues and I think FIRST deserves waaaaay more credit than we give them.

Just my .02.
It unfortunately isn't too late to change the rules... In fact, rules change all the time, look at GLR's "no defense on a ringer-less robot" rule.

Francois.

Dave Flowerday
03-11-2007, 08:24 PM
I've never seen so much complaining about a FIRST game in the 4 years I've been a part of FIRST.
I've been involved in FIRST since 1995 and I can assure you that this is basically normal. Way back then CD didn't exist and there wasn't as much discussion between teams, but critiquing and yes, even complaining have been a normal part of this organization for a LONG time. There may be a little more some years than others, but my take on it is simply that it means there are a lot of passionate people in this program who care deeply about it and want to see it done right. Also, I've found that most people who are engineering-minded also tend to be perfectionists, so it does not surprise me that they get bothered when things aren't "right".
FIRST isn't about winning.Actually, it is. That may not be the goal of the program but the competition is a means to an end. If the competitiveness did not exist this program would not be what it is. If we eliminate the competition aspect from this program then all you're left with is a big science fair, and I think you'll find that you'd lose the interest of many mentors and students. The competition is what makes this program fun and makes it effective.

Furthermore, "post-mortem analysis" is a very common practice in engineering - it is the process of identifying things that worked on a project and things that didn't. I see a lot of the discussion here in the same light.

Finally, if people are bothered by these discussions, simply don't read them! Either don't click on the threads, or if it really bothers you that much then just stop visiting CD. You're not likely to change most people's behavior anyway.

dlavery
03-11-2007, 08:36 PM
It unfortunately isn't too late to change the rules... In fact, rules change all the time, look at GLR's "no defense on a ringer-less robot" rule.

Francois.

That was not a rule change. That was a case of a particular Head Referee exceeding his authority.

-dave

meatmanek
03-11-2007, 08:56 PM
"A few of these CEOs said, 'Dean, what are you going to do that will make kids more passionate about science and engineering?' I said, 'Lets steal from the playbook of sports; lets create a sporting event!'"
-- Dean Kamen

Competition has always been a part of the game. You may try to argue that FIRST isn't about winning or losing, but because it's a competition, and it's designed that way, students and mentors and engineers will always be competitive. Part of being competitive is making sure you have a chance to win, which includes complaining when you think the rules aren't fair.

Jim E
03-11-2007, 08:58 PM
Hey!

Quit the griping. FIRST is about cooperation, not finger-pointing. FIRST has no control over a teams' performance when the schedules and pairings are posted, how could they?

I was surprised and delighted at UCF when PINK, 233, was plagued with problems all weekend , but was still selected in the seeeding round at UCF. Why? They are a consistent player and perform when under pressure. No Lie, Thery were seeded near last. I cannot tell you the number of teams dissapointed that PINK was a no-show in qualification matches. Fortunately Team 1523 were not paired with them, (but I would consider it an honor).

My point is, FIRST is not about winning, but about competing and learning something new. The best part of competing is how to do it under pressure. How well do you know you competition sometimes is more important than knowing your alliance strenghths.

Also, FIRST Volunteers are the just that. Next time you interact with one, Thank them for their service. Regardless of call, for or against you, remember, You may be one of them someday...:p

David Brinza
03-11-2007, 09:08 PM
You can call it complaining, criticism, or even just plain whining, but members of the FIRST community that have problems with how rules are written or interpreted, how poorly match schedules were arranged, or any other issue they may are providing feedback to the rest of the FIRST community. Sometimes the members that speak out in CD are saying the same thing that many others are thinking. Sometimes their perception of the issue is a bit misguided, but still they have the right to voice opinions. If they're opinions are way off-base, there are plenty of CD members who will try to set them straight.

I say that if a FIRST member believes that something is wrong, CD is the place to initiate discussion. If there's consensus among the CD community that something is broken in FIRST, there's a really good chance that it will get fixed. There are senior FIRST people scanning CD regularly. I think it's part of their "continuous improvement" process.

Lil' Lavery
03-12-2007, 03:07 PM
There is a difference between criticism and whining.
Constructive criticism in a necessity. Debate is healthy. Revealing new and potential problems is an absolute must. Whining and flaming are not.
An example would be the Banebots issue. A few teams originally posted the problems they experienced with them, revealing the issue to the members of CD (good). Teams, Mentors, Banebots, and FIRST then began analyzing the issue and determining whether it could be a serious issue (good). They then began working towards a solution (perfect). Some offered criticism and complaints about FIRST and Banebots letting this happen, but mainly withing bounds of sanity (alright). Other then continued to complain, even starting new threads, about issues that were already revealed, and offered no new productive solutions to the issue (bad), even after it was announced that not only was FIRST aware of the issue, but that they were working on a solution. There is no use beating a dead horse, so please don't bother.

David Brinza
03-12-2007, 03:30 PM
Right on the front page of Chief Delphi forums under the "Welcome to ChiefDelphi.com" heading are some important rules/guidelines for users of this forum. In particular, there's an imbedded link to the following announcement that new and/ or infrequent users really must read:

Read these threads first! (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59)

After you've read these, you'll understand why whining is not GP. If you have a problem/issue/question, read the game manual first, then search the CD forums. If there's nothing already posted, then create a new post. But remember, you are associating your team with your post. It's very easy to gripe about a problem, it's harder (but much better) to offer a solution...

cziggy343
03-12-2007, 05:04 PM
What you consider to be complaining over nothing or something that doesn't matter may be a very important issue to other teams. It is vital to look at the situation from all points of view before judging or at least publicly expressing your opinion.

i meant like a rule that u dont like b/c your team lost because of it. that's whining over something just because the world may have been a little unfair to u (or your team).

Rich Ross
03-12-2007, 07:00 PM
i cant decide which is worse: the fact that this thread exists or the fact that this many people (including myself) are posting in it.

99% of the "complaints" i have seen on CD recently are NECESSARY! All of the comments about a bad randomizer are right. Maybe you don't mind playing the same team over and over, but i didn't at GLR (note we only played against the same team about 3 or 4 times, but still quite frustrating. Maybe you didn't experience the atrocity of refs stretching their authority, but i did. I think that most of these complaints are justified. If we don't openly express our concerns with the FIRST program, they will not be able to fix those problems (and it doesn't seem that the randomizer problem was fixed even though we told FIRST about it extensively here on CD.

Complaints are an integral part of improvement, and being a team who was put in a poor situation by the inspectors made me realize that the complaining is just fine. If you don't want to see it, then skip those threads. Nobody is making you read every thread on CD (at least not that i know of)