View Full Version : pic: How illegal is that?
Arefin Bari
12-03-2007, 21:39
[cdm-description=photo]27687[/cdm-description]
Lil' Lavery
12-03-2007, 21:39
:P
Seriously though, I hope that was penalized.
Im about to feel really stupid i know but why is that illigal.
JamesBrown
12-03-2007, 21:46
Im about to feel really stupid i know but why is that illigal.
Only the human player can enter a ringer onto the field, Since these two are on the same team they can't both be HP
Liz Smith
12-03-2007, 21:47
Only human players are allowed to enter game pieces onto the field. If those two people are on the same team... its illegal
Right i knew that i swear..........
robostangs548
12-03-2007, 21:50
How can you penalize the art of team work? Isn't that part of the FIRST tradition working together to achieve your goal.... Ha ha... just kidding... but that is hilarious though..... you can tell that the judges were paying close attention to that one. Props to whoever got that picture. Who ever took this would make a great paparazzi some day!
CaseyKasem77
12-03-2007, 21:51
Looks like due to the amount of people in the crowd that was on thursday during practice matches. So i guess it could be forgivable if it was during practice matches not actual qualifying matches.
Sean Marks
12-03-2007, 21:51
Were they penalized for it? They should have been if they werent.:ahh:
Dan Petrovic
12-03-2007, 21:54
Smile! You're on candid camera!
At first, I thought it had something to do with either robot or the human player crossing the plane of the alliance station wall.
And then there was an extra hand, then an extra arm... and an extra body! What?!
Andrew Blair
12-03-2007, 21:55
Hehe, stupid digital photography...
Grant Cox
12-03-2007, 22:04
It's violating <G48> (only human player can touch the tubes), but in response to the question it's not horribly illegal, only minorly ;)
It's violating <G48> (only human player can touch the tubes), but in response to the question it's not horribly illegal, only minorly ;)
And yet they both add up to a ten point deduction.
Daggone rules!:p
Ninjitsu Banana
12-03-2007, 22:18
Am I the only one who finds the phrase "How illegal is that?" to be a tad un-GP?
Seriously though, that is against the rules of this year's competition, but it could have been that the other person (maybe he's the mentor) was showing the HP how to enter the ringers onto the field per the team's strategy. Perhaps the poster of the photo could tell us when it occurred (Thursday or Friday?)?
Arefin Bari
12-03-2007, 22:24
Am I the only one who finds the phrase "How illegal is that?" to be a tad un-GP?
Seriously though, that is against the rules of this year's competition, but it could have been that the other person (maybe he's the mentor) was showing the HP how to enter the ringers onto the field per the team's strategy. Perhaps the poster of the photo could tell us when it occurred (Thursday or Friday?)?
You must learn how to read a whole thread and then make a comment about being "un-GP." Scroll back up and read what Caseykasem77 posted. Rest of the story must come later.
Oh... and... if you didn't know... you need a catchy phrase to get someone's attention and thats where the phrase "How illegal is that" comes from.
... keep commenting.
geeknerd99
12-03-2007, 22:29
I looked at the EXIF, and (assuming the camera clock was correct) this indeed was on Thursday. 1:40 PM, in fact.
I suppose the moral of the picture is train your human player well?
GaryVoshol
12-03-2007, 22:32
It's violating <G48> (only human player can touch the tubes), but in response to the question it's not horribly illegal, only minorly ;)
Actually, <G47> says any team member, including the coach, can touch game pieces. <G48> says it must be the HP who enters the ringers onto the field.
Looks like due to the amount of people in the crowd that was on thursday during practice matches. So i guess it could be forgivable if it was during practice matches not actual qualifying matches.
Also the people standing along side the field are dressed in crew shirts, not ref shirts. I agree with the Thursday guess.
Dan Petrovic
12-03-2007, 22:34
I looked at the EXIF, and (assuming the camera clock was correct) this indeed was on Thursday. 1:40 PM, in fact.
I suppose the moral of the picture is train your human player well?
It's not the human player's fault. It's that extra person's fault for touching the tube ;)
The human player could be the best human player in the world, and know all of the rules perfectly. But that extra driver/coach...
So, the real moral of the story: Train your entire drive team well
Jeremiah Johnson
12-03-2007, 23:36
Hm... arm coming out of her head anyone? Heh... I think it's pretty hilarious actually. I could care less if it was penalized. Sure does look like a practice match. Assuming that he's just teaching her how to place the ringer on the robot, nice job providing a good example.
I'm just gonna skip over all the 'how much of a deduction was that?!' discussion and say this:
Yaaaaaaaaaaay teamwork!
Joe Menassa
13-03-2007, 00:14
Is there a reason that this photo is tagged with not only the team shown, but the person involved? I am assuming that based on that, it is supposed to be funny, which is totally fine...
Stu Bloom
13-03-2007, 00:28
Hm... arm coming out of her head anyone? Heh... I think it's pretty hilarious actually. I could care less if it was penalized. Sure does look like a practice match. Assuming that he's just teaching her how to place the ringer on the robot, nice job providing a good example.I'd say it looks more like she is teaching him ... :p
Dangerous strategy though ... we had to impose a few penalties in NJ for robot and/or HP breaking the plane while trying that type of exchange.
mtaman02
13-03-2007, 08:00
I have a question there were cut outs for the HP to easily & safely hand the Ringer to the robot right? so why is it that teams feel it necessary to hand the ringer over the wall and risk the robot & the team penalties / even a DQ. Has anyone used the cutouts provided to hand ringers to the robot?
JamesBrown
13-03-2007, 08:24
I have a question there were cut outs for the HP to easily & safely hand the Ringer to the robot right? so why is it that teams feel it necessary to hand the ringer over the wall and risk the robot & the team penalties / even a DQ. Has anyone used the cutouts provided to hand ringers to the robot?
There is a thread that asks which teams use the cut out, you might want to check that as it probably has mre responses than you will get here.
MAny teams that go over the wall rather than through the slot do it because the orientation is different. over the wall the ringer is parallel to the floor, the slot is perpendicular.
To be different, I see nothing wrong with this picture. A moment frozen in time. If I were a Ref I would need to wait until the tube was released. The person may be bringing it back to the station. There is no rule on 2 people touching the tube. Unless both people released at the exact same time then there may be only 1 person putting the tube on the field.
Just a few observations to open up the thinking process.
It was hard for me to tell from the picture. It looks like the tube has crossed the vertical plane of the alliance station wall. Assuming that it has, I would argue that the tube, since it broke the vertical plane of the playing field, has been entered into the playing field and that can only be done by the one and only human player. That is unless all three of the alliance partner's human players are passing the same tube over the wall.
Brandon Holley
13-03-2007, 12:05
To be different, I see nothing wrong with this picture. A moment frozen in time. If I were a Ref I would need to wait until the tube was released. The person may be bringing it back to the station. There is no rule on 2 people touching the tube. Unless both people released at the exact same time then there may be only 1 person putting the tube on the field.
Just a few observations to open up the thinking process.
I agree completely
1359th Scalawag
13-03-2007, 12:45
It's violating <G48> (only human player can touch the tubes), but in response to the question it's not horribly illegal, only minorly ;)
Anybody in the alliance station can handle the tubes, but the human players are the only ones allowed to enter them onto the feild.
vic burg
13-03-2007, 13:22
I believe because the tubes are supposed to go through the chute, and not over the alliance wall, that is an illegal move. Along with it being two people holding the tube. Which, it is understandable if she was losing her grip on the tube, but then again, even more reason why you shouldn't put it over the wall.
Unless I am mistaken. But, that is what I recall.
GaryVoshol
13-03-2007, 13:24
I believe because the tubes are supposed to go through the chute, and not over the alliance wall, that is an illegal move. Along with it being two people holding the tube. Which, it is understandable if she was losing her grip on the tube, but then again, even more reason why you shouldn't put it over the wall.
Unless I am mistaken. But, that is what I recall.
You are mistaken. Passing over the wall is legal, as long as neither the robot nor the human breaks the plane. It was made clear in a Q&A as I recall.
I would have never believed that robots would actually grab over the wall to get a tube. this picture shows them handing it to the roboti but I was surprised that during actual competition how many people were getting dq'd for breaking the playing field to get a tube...It was a little sad
artdutra04
13-03-2007, 14:27
To be different, I see nothing wrong with this picture. A moment frozen in time. If I were a Ref I would need to wait until the tube was released. The person may be bringing it back to the station. There is no rule on 2 people touching the tube. Unless both people released at the exact same time then there may be only 1 person putting the tube on the field.
Just a few observations to open up the thinking process.Good call.
We don't have enough information from this picture to know if this move was indeed illegal. It is perfectly legal for anyone to handle the tube, and it is perfectly legal to enter the tube into play over the alliance station wall. As long as the human player was the last and only person touching the tube when it was entered into play, then it's legal. It's cutting it close, but it is within the rules.
timville
13-03-2007, 15:00
He is correct that this picture would not be a violation...
It would be a violation if the robot touched the game piece as both hands were on the game piece, as this would be entering the piece into play and would break the "human player only" rule.
Secondly, if the robot would break the plane of the driver's station, that too would be a 10-pt penalty, and if either/both of the team's hands crossed the player's station wall/shute, it would be a 10-pt penalty.
Ultimatly, if the robot and the players made contact, it would be a disable and a DQ if I remember correctly.
He is correct that this picture would not be a violation...
It would be a violation if the robot touched the game piece as both hands were on the game piece, as this would be entering the piece into play and would break the "human player only" rule.
I disagree... I believe the ringer is "entered into play" when it breaks the plane not when it touched by a robot. Otherwise a tube thrown over the wall at the rack would "never" be in play. Only the HP should be in contact with the tube when it breaks the plane.
You sure they are both from the same team?
Nate Edwards
13-03-2007, 16:03
This was not enforced at all at PNW. I was a coach of a drive team and when we watching the drive teams before our matches the refs didn't even pay attention to the fact that two even three members of the drive team were tossing tubes on the field. Also humans breaking the plane of the field was not enforced either. The refs didn't even seem to know what I was talking about when I talked to them about it.
timville
13-03-2007, 16:25
I disagree... I believe the ringer is "entered into play" when it breaks the plane not when it touched by a robot. Otherwise a tube thrown over the wall at the rack would "never" be in play. Only the HP should be in contact with the tube when it breaks the plane.
Well you are right, but holding it over the playing field would be like holding it halfway in the chute. I
It wouldn't be until the object was completely over the wall. That would qualify "in play", or until the robot touched it if it was half way over...
Otherwise, a person would not be able to put a scoring object into the chute halfway and pull it out.
I wouldn't have called this in Pittsburgh if I saw it unless the object actually went into play and the two people were from same team (which we actually called about 3 times)
Only the human player can place tubes into the field, whether or not it is in play when completely in/over the field or when it breaks the plane of the alliance station wall. I have held many tubes over the past eight weeks and can only wonder. Why in the world would it ever take two people to pass a tube over the alliance station wall? Why are people trying to force the issue here and on the field? The Q & A made it clear that the HP can enter tubes onto the field over the alliance station wall as long as the HP or Robot do not break the plane of the alliance station wall. Wouldn't it be nice if GP would take over and teams would simply have the one and only HP on each alliance pass ringers to the robot over the wall, thru the chute or throw them into the playing field instead of using team members other than the HP and/or multiple players passing over the same ringer. I just do not see the benefit to using more than the designated HP or not following a simple rule. If you are not the HP, why would you think that you can pass the ringer into the field by whatever method is legal? If the refs did not notice it very often it was probably because they did not think anyone would have a reason to not follow a couple of simple rules.
vic burg
15-03-2007, 19:43
You are mistaken. Passing over the wall is legal, as long as neither the robot nor the human breaks the plane. It was made clear in a Q&A as I recall.
Oops, thank you for the correction, Gary.
Sorry about that, everyone.
I think that they are two human players on two different teams. After all, there is nothing illegal about wearing a shirt belonging to a team other than the one you are on.:D
ChrisMcK2186
16-03-2007, 16:00
Hmm, its like teaching your date to golf, only slightly nerdier. Hope I spelled nerdier right....
Chris
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