Ramps extending outside of the home zone

[Shomron1690]

Hi,

We have a question,
How does the lenght of the robot counts when it is open (with the ramp) and it is not only in the HomeZone?
it is a little bit outside the HZ...

Thank you,

Team #1690
Big Fishy

[Alex Cormier]

your robot is bigger then the 72" box, and touches outside of the home zone just even a fraction of an inch that is a penalty.

[Karthik]

your robot is bigger then the 72" box, and touches outside of the home zone just even a fraction of an inch that is a penalty.

This was not the case at the Great Lakes Regional. Teams were only penalized if 72"x72" were outside of the end zone. Teams who were slightly outside the endzone were never penalized.

Can anyone who attended other regionals describe how this rule was enforced?

[Billfred]

Can anyone who attended other regionals describe how this rule was enforced?At both Florida and Chesapeake, I saw flags thrown (or rather waved, now) for teams driving out of the home zone while beyond the 72" mark. If you went visibly beyond the line, in whole or in part, it was a flag.

[Taylor]

At the BMR if any team had its ramps down and crossed the HZ plane it got penalized. This happened more often than I would have guessed.

[Dan 1038]

In Pittsburgh, teams were penalized if any part of the offending robot broke the plane of the home zone while exceeding 72" in any direction...

[IndySam]

At the BMR if any team had its ramps down and crossed the HZ plane it got penalized. This happened more often than I would have guessed.

Except for accidental deployments, we had it happen both in St Louis and at Boilermaker and each time the ref didn't penalize us because we went straight into the home zone and it didn't affect the match at all.

It's a different story if you intentionally deploy and come out of the zone.

[sanddrag]

At LA the rule was if you go outside 72" box outsideof the home zone, if you get to the home zone immediately and quickly or hit the E-stop button in the same fashion, you will not be penalized

[Dan 1038]

Except for accidental deployments, we had it happen both in St Louis and at Boilermaker and each time the ref didn't penalize us because we went straight into the home zone and it didn't affect the match at all.

It's a different story if you intentionally deploy and come out of the zone.

In Pittsburgh they nailed teams for accidental deployments outside the home zone, too.

[J@GMFlint]

At MWR several teams were penalized if their ramps deployed to a size greater than 72" x 72" outside of the home zone, even by a fraction. They seemed to be watching for this pretty closely. Our single ramp was checked by the officials both during quals and elims for deployed size outside of home, but we did not have a problem.

[Alex Cormier]

Sounds like various results to this call. Disapointing to the teams who lost thier chance at winning becuase of the call being more strict in one regional then the others.

[roborat]

In Pittsburgh, our partner was out about 3 inches and we were penalized and also, our robot flipped on its back and about 6 inches of our arm was in the home zone of opponent and we were penalized for being there even after we disabled our robot.

[kawelch]

In KC if you crossed the HZ line you were penalized...every time you crossed. If you deployed and then adjusted and went back and forth 3 times ( even by an inch) you were flagged each time. If I saw it correctly.

[Rosiebotboss]

At UTC, the ruling was if the offending robot was 'unfolded' to more than 72 x 72 and any part of the robot "broke the plane" of the home zone, there was a 10 point penalty assesed.

We got called for it once. Our arm was horizontal, and breaking the plane by about 2-3 inches while our ramps were down. At no point was any part of the robot touching outside of the home zone, but broke the plane only.:(

[Travis Hoffman]

Sounds like various results to this call. Disapointing to the teams who lost thier chance at winning becuase of the call being more strict in one regional then the others.

It seems the "outside just a little bit" ruling is in effect at most events. I'd agree this is the best way to call it. There can be no middle ground (since the YMTC discussion about the tube under the unsupporting ramp made that clear). Given the noted discrepancy in ref calls at a few earlier events, I'm guessing/hoping FIRST is adding this to their list of conference call reminders to the head refs this week.

Clear out plenty of room before deploying. The 33, 47, 71, 180 etc. style ramps are most likely having the most difficulties avoiding penalties of this nature. Hybrids watch your arm placement as well.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

During the second final match at the Midwest Regional, Wildstang had deployed their ramp and, from what I could see, was penalized because their side shielding had come off of the robot and was lying just barely over the line. That was kind of goofy, but what can you do? It's all about interpretation.

[ALIBI]

At the Boilermaker, I must say the refs were some of the best I have ever seen. They were fair and consistent throughout the weekend. Taking the time to warn teams before giving out penalties for all but the most flagrant violations. It seemed as though they gave penalties for ramps that totally deployed outside the HZ and if at the end of the match either your ramp or arm were outside they gave you a penalty then. Having your arm or ramp just outside the HZ while trying to position was not given a penalty as long as you were making an effort to get back in the HZ. A small corner of our ramps went outside the HZ a couple times without penalties. One time we forgot to put our arm down and after resting it on top of the alliance station wall and not taking corrective action fast enough we were penalized and I believe we were also disabled. The refs seemed to want to let the teams play by not calling penalties that did not harm other robots or have a huge affect on the game. A real common sense approach that was very much appreciated. Total deployment of ramps in the middle of the field, penalty every time. A couple inches out while trying to allign the ramps in the HZ during the end game and making sure that at the end you are completely within the HZ, no penalty.

[flightofone]

At UTC we had a fragile drive train but a good ramp, so we just sat there and deployed early. In one QF match our ramp wouldn't deploy (the battery cable was looped over the pushing arm), so we went out to play defense. The first time we got hit our ramps went out, giving us a 10pt penalty, but netting 50pts and the win after we made it back to the HZ and had both partners drive up.

[IndySam]

At the Boilermaker, I must say the refs were some of the best I have ever seen.
Agreed they did a great job and are an example for all FIRST referees to follow.

[ChuckDickerson]

We were having some initial problems with one of the servos that release one of our ramps to fall down at Bayou. It seems that there is a short period of time between autonomous and human control when the servos are without power and this would cause one of our releases to disengage. Anyway, in a couple of our early matches (before the problem was diagnosed and fixed) we would take off under driver control and BANG one of our ramps would deploy in the middle of the field leaving us no choice but to return to the home zone and sit and wait out the match ready for an alliance partner to climb up. We were clearly larger than 72”x72” in the middle of the field but there was never a penalty called against us. We were surprised, but then again, there was a lot going on at the Bayou that should have been called but wasn’t. Fortunately, we think our ramp/release problem is now fixed and we should be ready to go in Atlanta!

[Zyik]

I remember our one of our ramps coming down half way through a match because someone rammed us, no penalty. We hit them back, accidentally close lined someone with it, then did some defense before getting back to the home zone near the end. No penalty. SV regional. We might have got a warning but I wasn't on the field so I don't know. All I know is it happened twice and no points were lost.

[Adam Shapiro]

At NYC we flagged the penalty if any portion of the base of the robot exceeded the 72" limit outside the home zone. We did count being partially in the home zone as a penalty, however we didn't flag robots whose arms or other parts exceeded the limit but weren't resting on the ground past the line as that would be very hard to judge in the heat of the moment. It was a rather hard rule to judge, however most of the times we called it the robots were significantly outside the home zone.

[freestylemotox]

This was not the case at the Great Lakes Regional. Teams were only penalized if 72"x72" were outside of the end zone. Teams who were slightly outside the endzone were never penalized.

Can anyone who attended other regionals describe how this rule was enforced?


at detroit if your robot was even a hair outside of the box then you got a penalty. It was a little harsh but i guess im not the judge

[GaryVoshol]

at detroit if your robot was even a hair outside of the box then you got a penalty. It was a little harsh but i guess im not the judge
True (although "an inch" should probably replace "a hair" - you did have to be far enough out so that it could clearly be seen.) However, if you accidentally deployed early, you would get the penalty but would not get a disable/dq if you retreated to the home zone immediately and didn't interfere with any opponents on the way.

[Wayne Doenges]

Here's is what I found in the FIRST Q&A:

Assume the following condition:
Our bot deploys a platform and ramp for another bot to climb. Our bot is in the home zone but part of our ramp extends past the home zone line. A bot climbs the ramp and sits on the platform. That bot, and the platform, are clearly within the home zone.

Does the bot on the platform score the points even though our ramp extends outside of the home zone?

Can a robot that is supporting the raised robot be partially out of the home zone as long as the raised robot is within the home zone?

Answer:
Under the provisions of Rule <G56>, each robot entirely within the Home Zone at the end of the match may be eligible for bonus points (depending upon the height off the floor that the robot is raised). If the robot is being supported off the floor by another robot, there is no requirement that the supporting robot be entirely within the Home Zone.

So it's legal to be outside the HZ as long as the supported bots are entirely in the HZ.

[Joohoo]

At FLR the same thing happened our alliance partner accientally deployed their lifter outside of the HZ and they were penalized.

We also were penalized when the opposing alliance pushed their lifter out side of the HZ. Was that seen anywhere else?

[TD78]

Answer:
Under the provisions of Rule <G56>, each robot entirely within the Home Zone at the end of the match may be eligible for bonus points (depending upon the height off the floor that the robot is raised). If the robot is being supported off the floor by another robot, there is no requirement that the supporting robot be entirely within the Home Zone.

So it's legal to be outside the HZ as long as the supported bots are entirely in the HZ.

So while the bonus points for the supported robot count, wouldn't the ramp robot who is outside the HZ collect penalty violations as well (if they are >72" - from what I have seen, any sort of action by such a robot that breaks the plane of the HZ has been flagged with a penalty)? It doesn't say in that Q&A response that it was legal for robots to be outside the HZ, just that the bonus points for the robots being supported count...

[Logan Byers]

At the Boilermaker, I must say the refs were some of the best I have ever seen. They were fair and consistent throughout the weekend. Taking the time to warn teams before giving out penalties for all but the most flagrant violations. It seemed as though they gave penalties for ramps that totally deployed outside the HZ and if at the end of the match either your ramp or arm were outside they gave you a penalty then. Having your arm or ramp just outside the HZ while trying to position was not given a penalty as long as you were making an effort to get back in the HZ. A small corner of our ramps went outside the HZ a couple times without penalties. One time we forgot to put our arm down and after resting it on top of the alliance station wall and not taking corrective action fast enough we were penalized and I believe we were also disabled. The refs seemed to want to let the teams play by not calling penalties that did not harm other robots or have a huge affect on the game. A real common sense approach that was very much appreciated. Total deployment of ramps in the middle of the field, penalty every time. A couple inches out while trying to allign the ramps in the HZ during the end game and making sure that at the end you are completely within the HZ, no penalty.

As one of the refs at boilermaker, I thank you for your compliments.

During our training, the Head Ref briefed us on the rules. When we got to the home zone rules, staying within the alliance zone, breaking the driver station plane, and 72"x72" rules, he didn't want us to flag a robot or human player for the smallest infractions. If you're clearly out of the home zone / alliance zone or over the driver station, we called it. If you were really close (<1 inch) to breaking the home zone, driver station, or 72"x72" rule, we gave you the benefit of the doubt on the first offense, but warned you to be careful and probably penalized you the next time it happened.
Now, if your robot deployed the ramps because of a hit from another robot or somehow pulled them out because of entanglement with the rack, we didn't penalize you IF you made an effort to get into your home zone.
As for other penalties, specifically the rough play and yellow cards, I received plenty of complaints about it, but that's a completely different subject.

As for the other regionals, it stinks that it can't be consistent across the board, but each head ref has a different interpretation of the rules. As a former driver, I'd advise the drivers/operators to ask the refs and make sure you get a clear definition and understanding of how they're going to call the penalties and follow them. Also, remember that just because the last regional's refs called the game one way doesn't mean the refs at your next regional or even the Championships are going to call it the same way.

[Mark Garver]

Except for accidental deployments, we had it happen both in St Louis and at Boilermaker and each time the ref didn't penalize us because we went straight into the home zone and it didn't affect the match at all.

It's a different story if you intentionally deploy and come out of the zone.

At the St. Louis Regional I thought that we called all of the bots exceeding 72" outside of the home zone, but evidently we missed at least one (I was one of the refs). The way it was called in St. Louis was if you exceeded the 72" outside of the home zone you were accessed a 10 pt penalty and were asked by the referees to try to get back to your home zone. After the regional was over, we discovered that asking them to return to the home zone was needed. There weren't any matches where we felt that a robot great than 72" had a drastic impact on the outcome of the game so it wasn't disabled/DQed.

At the GLR robotics weren't called for being greater than the 72" outside of the home zone as Karthik pointed out.

At the Detroit Regional referees seemed to make the right calls for robots being greater than 72" outside of the home zone and for robotics being greater than 72" that went in and out of the home zone repeatedly.

Has there been any regionals where robots have been disabled/DQed for being outside of the 72" while outside of the home zone during a match? Either because the referees thought that was still the rule as it was originally or because they thought that it provided an unfair advantage by being greater than the 72", instead of just the 10 pt penalty.

[IndySam]

At the St. Louis Regional I thought that we called all of the bots exceeding 72" outside of the home zone, but evidently we missed at least one (I was one of the refs). The way it was called in St. Louis was if you exceeded the 72" outside of the home zone you were accessed a 10 pt penalty and were asked by the referees to try to get back to your home zone. After the regional was over, we discovered that asking them to return to the home zone was needed. There weren't any matches where we felt that a robot great than 72" had a drastic impact on the outcome of the game so it wasn't disabled/DQed.

You can see it in the video. Our drivers forgot to reset the switch for the ramp deployment and it came out when we were playing defense. We then went straight into the home zone. I thought for sure we would be penalized but we weren't. I had my driver ask the ref why and he said it was because the deployment happened after we were hit and because we went straight into the zone.

[Bharat Nain]

This was not the case at the Great Lakes Regional. Teams were only penalized if 72"x72" were outside of the end zone. Teams who were slightly outside the endzone were never penalized.


I think that would be the right way to enforce this rule. The intent is so teams don't build an extension that just blocks off one part of the field. Robots on ramps that fall on the rack/outside the field is also not a good thing. At NJ and CT teams were penalized for being slightly out of the home zone most of the time. Sometimes, they let it go if the teams corrected themselves immediately.

[Mr.G]

Since there are so many teams getting penalties for this I think it might be better to have a 5 sec. count like there is for pinning.

If you are outside the home zone for 5 seconds you get the penalty.