Best Atlanta Alliances

[AdmiralAllen]

What do you guys think will be the best type of Alliance in Atlanta....

2 Hangers 1 lifter
3 Hangers




or what?.......


I think 3 Hangers

[slickguy2007]

2 scorers and one hybrid - the hybrid of course being both a good lifter/scorer

[Lil' Lavery]

1+ ramp/lift capable of 2@12" easily & consistently
2+ bots capable of scoring on all 3 levels
3 bots capable of scoring consistently
1+ bot capable of removing spoilers from all 3 levels
2+ bots with strong drivetrains capable of maintaining position
2+ bots capable of playing defense
1+ bot capable of scoring multiple tubes while being defended
3 bots with great drivers
3 bots that can score in autonomous

My ideal alliance ;)

[Brandon Holley]

1+ ramp/lift capable of 2@12" easily & consistently
2+ bots capable of scoring on all 3 levels
3 bots capable of scoring consistently
1+ bot capable of removing spoilers from all 3 levels
2+ bots with strong drivetrains capable of maintaining position
2+ bots capable of playing defense
1+ bot capable of scoring multiple tubes while being defended
3 bots with great drivers

My ideal alliance ;)

13 robots ?!?!?!

[Madison]

2 tube machines that play well off of one another and a machine that's devoted exclusively to defense and lifting are the way to go.

You'd have to be enormously cocky to play an offense-only game this time around.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

2 tube machines that play well off of one another and a machine that's devoted exclusively to defense and lifting are the way to go.

You'd have to be enormously cocky to play an offense-only game this time around.

This is my belief as well.

[Beth Sweet]

13 robots ?!?!?!

Sean gets to play his own game. We'll be having some interesting games on Galileo... ;)

[~Sarah~]

13 robots ?!?!?!


Well... if you think about it, with 13 robots on the field, of course you're gonna win.
Heck... I want 13 robots on my alliance too.
:p

[Faith]

I don't know, an entirely offensive alliance does have its perks.
-More likely they will all be amazing scorers rather than good ones
-Durign endgame, the other alliance has to make a difficult choice: go for 60 and leave 3 robots by themselves to put up tubes, leave 1 defensive bot out to stop some tube scoring and get 30 points, or forsake the extra points and try preventing them from putting any tubes up.

Since just putting one tube on a row could add 64 points, the ramp is not always worth it. And with 3 amazing robots free to score, the possibilities are endless.

[Michael Leicht]

1+ ramp/lift capable of 2@12" easily & consistently
2+ bots capable of scoring on all 3 levels
3 bots capable of scoring consistently
1+ bot capable of removing spoilers from all 3 levels
2+ bots with strong drivetrains capable of maintaining position
2+ bots capable of playing defense
1+ bot capable of scoring multiple tubes while being defended
3 bots with great drivers

My ideal alliance ;)

so basically 1626and a clone of 1626 and a 71 as a ramp?

[Madison]

I don't know, an entirely offensive alliance does have its perks.
-More likely they will all be amazing scorers rather than good ones
-Durign endgame, the other alliance has to make a difficult choice: go for 60 and leave 3 robots by themselves to put up tubes, leave 1 defensive bot out to stop some tube scoring and get 30 points, or forsake the extra points and try preventing them from putting any tubes up.

Since just putting one tube on a row could add 64 points, the ramp is not always worth it. And with 3 amazing robots free to score, the possibilities are endless.

I think you're optimistic if you believe that nearly 1/3 of the robots in any division are going to qualify as 'amazing' anything. By the time the draft rolls back on down to the first seed, there will not be much left to pick from, I think. That places the number eight seed in, arguably, the best position for an offensive alliance selection -- but that alliance will necessarily be made from teams that are inferior to those above them in almost all circumstances.

If teams are in a position to work with a reliable lifting robot, it's in their best interest to limit tube scoring during the match and that's pretty easily accomplished if you think things through.

[Brad Voracek]

Two scoring robots, and a great lift bot capable of 2 robots 12inches high in ~15 seconds or less, every time. They should be able to score one or two tubes, but if they can lift in say, 5 seconds, then I wouldn't worry about being able to score tubes. One or two from them is a plus though.

The way I see it, if one team can get 6 tubes up in the right spots, they are unstoppable if their lifts work. Two vertical rows of three, directly opposite each other, allows the other team to only score 96 points, and that's if they can put up -18- tubes. Now the team that has 6 tubes up, two vertical rows of three, is capable of scoring 76 points, and they only put 6 tubes up. That's three tubes per scoring robot, and if they lift bot puts one up then the other alliance's score goes way down.

With 76 points, the other alliance -has- to score 16 tubes. 16. I don't know why the teams with lifts go for wrap-arounds. Offensive defense is where it is at.

(my math might be off in some places. Correct me as needed)

[AdamHeard]

I think you're optimistic if you believe that nearly 1/3 of the robots in any division are going to qualify as 'amazing' anything. By the time the draft rolls back on down to the first seed, there will not be much left to pick from, I think. That places the number eight seed in, arguably, the best position for an offensive alliance selection -- but that alliance will necessarily be made from teams that are inferior to those above them in almost all circumstances.

If teams are in a position to work with a reliable lifting robot, it's in their best interest to limit tube scoring during the match and that's pretty easily accomplished if you think things through.

I don't know.... looking at some divisions (Galileo for one), there are atleast 24 good offensive teams.

[Lil' Lavery]

13 robots ?!?!?!

I actually added autonomous, making it 16. ;)

In reality, each bot would have multiple roles within the alliance, there are just 16 roles that need to be filled to have an "ideal alliance". The winning alliance won't quite have all of these, but they will likely fill the majority. And you may notice some of them are related to playing defense and/or maintaining position. :)

[Dan Petrovic]

I don't know, an entirely offensive alliance does have its perks.
-More likely they will all be amazing scorers rather than good ones
-Durign endgame, the other alliance has to make a difficult choice: go for 60 and leave 3 robots by themselves to put up tubes, leave 1 defensive bot out to stop some tube scoring and get 30 points, or forsake the extra points and try preventing them from putting any tubes up.

Since just putting one tube on a row could add 64 points, the ramp is not always worth it. And with 3 amazing robots free to score, the possibilities are endless.

The alliance looking to lift two robots can keep the opponents from scoring more than a row of 4 with some defensive tube placement. Two columns of tubes with two columns in between them limits the offensive alliance to rows of 4. The most they can get is 80 points. For that alliance to score 12 tubes would be unbelieveable. Especially if they already exhausted their human players' tubes and have to run across the field to the other homezone where there are a bunch of robots in the way.

[Dreadfrost]

Ok well everyone knows that going offensive is risky (since it easier and faster to stop someone scoring that score yourself) but clearly in atlanta it will be required.
Also a lot of good scoring robots like 1114 in Galileo have only needed to use their arm in the regionals and yet to really test other robot capabilities of climbing their ramp. We went against 1114 in the finals of both Waterloo and GTR and i didnt see them use their ramp once until the final few matches at GTR.
So we could see some changes in the way robots dominate at atlanta compared to regionals.

Dreadfrost

[SSMike]

My Ideal Alliance:
1 ramp/lift bot that can efficiently elevate 2 bots to 12 inches almost everytime (if not everytime). This bot will also play defense and have a very strong drvie train to push other bots and not get pushed themselves. It may also have some way to put ringers on the rack. Examples: 316, 67, 503 etc.

2 scoring bots that can score a lot of points not only while alone, but while they are guarded. Must be able to efficiently clib ramps. At least one of these must have a semi-successful autonomous mode. Examples: 191, 1126, 25, 217, 67 etc.

[ScoutingNerd175]

3 Strong drive trains, all other qualities are negotiable.

Ideally that would include 2 strong ring scorers (with the ability to get up a ramp) and one hybrid bot with very good ramps and solid scoring.

In this scenario, the alliance can adapt to play whatever strategy is necessary (Defense, offense only, offense and ramp, defense and ramp). But, I've seen plenty of great scorers stopped by teams with better drive trains.

[hipsterjr]

2 small scorers with high torque for push away defense are playing defense.
1 large hybrid to score a couple ringers, but primary for defense and ramp

Few teams can survive without defense. You can win by playing incredible defense and lifting 2 bots @12''

[SBass]

so basically 1626and a clone of 1626 and a 71 as a ramp?

-"Team 1626, who would you like to choose as an alliance partner?"
+"Team 1626 would like to invite team 1626... Team 1626 graciously accepts"
(Later when they come back to you)
-"Team 1626 and team 1626 who would you like to pick for your third alliance partner?"
+"Teams 1626 and 1626 would like to invite team 1626"
-"I'm sorry.. 1626 has already been chosen..."

[Ericgehrken]

An amazing hybrid (such as 330) and two amazing cappers

[Donut]

I think it will be an alliance made up of 2 extremely good arm robots (they may be a hybrid, or they may be just an arm, either way they're there for their arm ability, not their ramps/lifters), and 1 robot that is either a hybrid arm/ramp or a ramp with defensive power.

The winning alliance will put up an amazing amount of tubes (trying to score at least 2 tubes in auto every match, being succesful usually), but will start out with strategic placement to limit their opponent's options. Then at the end they'll either lift for 60 with their very consitent ramper or they'll put up the 7th ring, depending on how the game has played out.

I don't see a defensive game where you just push the other guys around and ramp at the end winning. More than half of all elimination alliances will have a good lifter; I see ramps becoming a necessity not to win matches but just to survive them. You need a ramp just so you have the option of cancelling out the 60 your opponents will put up with theirs.

[BBnum3]

I think we'll see a variety of alliances doing well in Atlanta. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 5th or a 6th seed win it all because of the picks those teams will have. I could see a 5th seeded good tube scoring robot pick another solid tube scoring robot and on the wraparound get a good ramp. The same thing could be said for seeds 6-8. The top seeds will have trouble filling up that second pick with a solid ramp bot.

That said, I think the alliance that will win it all will have two good scorers. That's all I can say for sure. The third robot could be A. A decent hybrid B. A decent tubes-only C. Ramp/Defensive. I think we will see alliances of each kind advance very far. I think it will be very tough for anyone to win purely by tubes, as a little defensive tube placement can quickly negate any big scores. Also, I haven't seen a robot that couldn't be rendered significantly less effective by a good defensive bot. Defense will be key, whether it is by tube placement or pushing.

[Mike Ross]

You'd have to be enormously cocky to play an offense-only game this time around.

I'm not so sure. Think about it. If I have three scorers, two of whom can score in auton, my alliance can feasably have a row of 4 or 5 before your alliance can react.

However, I do think most successful alliances will have a ramp, if only to have the threat of using them. That way, the opposition cannot play for the stalemate on the rack.

Remember last year when everyone said, "Sure, three good scorers might work, but that'll never happen.":rolleyes: :D

[POLISH703]

My Ideal Alliance would be:

Robot A: Able to score ringers with light defense on it and able to climb any ramp very well.
Robot B: Good scorer for ringers with very large, good working ramps. that allows robot A and C to climb to 12 inches.
Robot C: Very, Very strong defensive robot, able to shut down any robot or limit to a good scoring robot to only score 0-2 ringers. Also able to climb any ramp very well. Robot C also has a good ramp in case other ramp for some reason fails.

[MasterChief 573]

2 scorers and one hybrid - the hybrid of course being both a good lifter/scorer

From what I've seen so far this year that's just the kind of alliance that wins tournaments. The reason having a ramp bot is so important is because when the competition gets to the top teams defense is often in full affect and it seems as though scoring decreases meaning that the last second ramping makes all the difference.

[Paul Copioli]

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.

By the way, by my count there are at least 24 good scorers in Galileo which means our division has a great chance on Einstein (whoever represents us).

With that said, you great double rampers in Galileo will be a hot commodity since most people believe the ramp is absolutely critical ... I'm just not one of them.

[Travis Hoffman]

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?



Then......you're playing defense on a robot instead of scoring, which is fine by me! It also puts a defender between multiple robots and their home zone late in the match. You presume you would have tube superiority by that time, but I wouldn't be so sure......:D

[Paul Copioli]

You presume you would have tube superiority by that time, but I wouldn't be so sure......

I'll take that bet right now.

[Joel J]

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.

By the way, by my count there are at least 24 good scorers in Galileo which means our division has a great chance on Einstein (whoever represents us).

With that said, you great double rampers in Galileo will be a hot commodity since most people believe the ramp is absolutely critical ... I'm just not one of them.
Easier said than done.

I say going without ramps is not worth the risk.

I say ramp/scoring hybrids are premium, because you can still get three scoring robots on an alliance + the ramps. It is very likely that at least one of the robots would have a solid drivetrain and the ability to play defense. They (edit: ramp/scoring hybrids) might be a moot point in Galileo, because I don't see many of them that are reasonably good ramps or scorers..

But anyway.. 2056 (let's say) can pick 488 with the number one seeded pick, have everyone laugh at them, then draft another scorer in the second round (just due to the sheer number of them, I bet a good one will still be around), and walk all over your alliance of three scorers. I'm not saying they would pick in this way, just pointing something out.

PS: My dream alliance.. 3 scorers, atleast one with ramps, and atleast two with solid drivetrains.

[Travis Hoffman]

I'll take that bet right now.

I bet you would take that bet. :cool:


[Scorer X] can pick [Armless Rampbot Y] with the number one seeded pick, have everyone laugh at them, then draft another scorer in the second round (just due to the sheer number of them, I bet a good one will still be around), and walk all over your alliance of three scorers. I'm not saying they would pick in this way, just pointing something out.

In this 2 scorer + rampbot scenario, you are presuming, correct, that the rampbot (whomever it is) would have a strong/fast enough drivetrain to really mess with the opposing alliance during the 1:45 it isn't doing its ramp thang, correct? A ramp-only bot without defense is like Dean Kamen without denim. We're not presuming the presence of superior lifts during the last bit of the match can overcome a shortage of defensive prowess the other 1:45 (plus any defensive auto modes that may be programmed)?

[Grant Cox]

I'll take 3 good scorers any day. 2 scorers and a great hybrid wouldn't be too bad either (and by great I mean good enough at scoring ringers to contribute to points, and a reliable 12 inch lifter or ramp)

with 3 good scorers, the offensive pounding would overthrow the opposing ramp every time. With 3 good scorers, it's impossible to defend them all adequately. With 2 and a good hybrid, you just have that "insurance" of an extra 30 or 60 at the end (or the "threat").

[Joel J]

Yea, I'm assuming the rampbot is good enough (drivetrain and driver-wise) to play defense. I think a weaker drivetrain on a rampbot could still get by, however, because of how effective it is to simply get in the way this year.

Its not that hard to block long rows, either-- just need a good enough field crew to do it.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.

By the way, by my count there are at least 24 good scorers in Galileo which means our division has a great chance on Einstein (whoever represents us).

With that said, you great double rampers in Galileo will be a hot commodity since most people believe the ramp is absolutely critical ... I'm just not one of them.

This tactic was tried against us at BAE GSR. Only 1 team was able to pull it off (Kudos to team #40 Checkmate).

The reason that most cannot do it is because the drivetrains for most offensive robots are designed for manuverability and speed, and not the raw pushing power which is needed to trap a good defensive ramp.


.

[ALIBI]

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.

By the way, by my count there are at least 24 good scorers in Galileo which means our division has a great chance on Einstein (whoever represents us).

With that said, you great double rampers in Galileo will be a hot commodity since most people believe the ramp is absolutely critical ... I'm just not one of them.


Lots of good insight here by Paul! Having three robots that can score well will be a must. You only have nine ringers on your side of the field. Three offensive robots will run through those in less than forty-five seconds. Then what? Your best defensive scorer should go to the opposite side of the field to strategically place ringers on the opposing side using ringers off the wall. Your best scoring ramp/lifting bot should stay on your end to either place ringers or defend the defender sent over to block your second scorer if they send one over.

I would disagree with the 24 places to score between 3 robots statement. This is the championship, I see it as 24 places for 6 robots to score. It may not be as much defensive, but more by the way of two scorers fighting over the same spider leg to score. Most teams will have figured out how to stop rows of five by now.

By the time you get out of qualifiers I predict that you will not see many rows over four. If you do, both alliances will have them. There will simply be too many robots that can score on all three levels. Each alliance will get a couple rows of four, most rows of five will probably include two and maybe three keepers, finally auton will be important, and being able to grab sixty bonus points will be a neccessity.

The best alliance in Atlanta? Every robot out there needs to be a threat to score. Defense will end up being the fight over real estate on the rack, not just pushing eachother around. Matches will have 30-46 points off the rack per alliance with the match being won using bonus points.

Three robots that can score well. With at least one with good ramps/lifters, preferably two with good ramps/lifters. Both ramp/lifter robots must be able to climb if needed. If your ramp/lifter does get traped on the opposing side after playing awesome defense, your other ramp/lifter can still get 30 points and if your other ramp/lifter gets freed up it can run over for another 30 bonus points.

[Travis Hoffman]

Lots of good insight here by Paul! Having three robots that can score well will be a must. You only have nine ringers on your side of the field. Three offensive robots will run through those in less than forty-five seconds. Then what? Your best defensive scorer should go to the opposite side of the field to strategically place ringers on the opposing side using ringers off the wall. Your best scoring ramp/lifting bot should stay on your end to either place ringers or defend the defender sent over to block your second scorer if they send one over.

I guess the opposing alliance is off taking a coffee break while all this scoring awesomeness is going on? ;)

If an alliance leaves 3 scorers alone, the scorers may be able to do what you suggested.......and the crowd falls asleep. If they instead decide to step away from their tea and crumpets and engage the scoring alliance directly, well then it gets beautifully-ugly, and that's when the fun begins.

[Beth Sweet]

I guess the opposing alliance is off taking a coffee break while all this scoring awesomeness is going on? ;)

If an alliance leaves 3 scorers alone, the scorers may be able to do what you suggested.......and the crowd falls asleep. If they instead decide to step away from their tea and crumpets and engage the scoring alliance directly, well then it gets beautifully-ugly, and that's when the fun begins.

You know Travis, I think I'd disagree with offensive matches being boring. I've seen some awesome matches that were teams outscoring each other (our QF at GLR against 1114 et al) was one of the most intense matches of the tournament. The crowd was screaming the whole time. And the teams just played "score a blue if they score a red". So, I wouldn't be surprised to see the crowd getting into an offensive match, so long as it's well played...

[Travis Hoffman]

You know Travis, I think I'd disagree with offensive matches being boring. I've seen some awesome matches that were teams outscoring each other (our QF at GLR against 1114 et al) was one of the most intense matches of the tournament. The crowd was screaming the whole time. And the teams just played "score a blue if they score a red". So, I wouldn't be surprised to see the crowd getting into an offensive match, so long as it's well played...

Uncontested offensive matches, where alliances keep to their sides of the field, are boring, in my opinion. If both alliances are putting up ringers at similar rates with a hand in their face, and they're crossing the field to mess with opposing rows, including use of the spoiler, then that is exciting.

But an 8-4 slugfest with last second ramping excites me more. :)

[Rob]

In my opinion, the best alliance will need the flexibility to choose from using many strategies in different matches, and the willingness to use them all (not being stubborn and trying to "do it your way").

I think there will be situations where you will need the flexibility to win using bonus points, to win using big rows on the top, to win by removing a spoiler, to seal up a victory by blocking your opponent from getting back to climb, the list goes on...

To draft an alliance that can only play one way is not, in my opinion, the winning solution. You need the flexibility to adapt to any circumstance that arises.

On a side note, I think that the primary strategy of most winning alliances will be to win with points on the rack & removal of spoilers, and use ramp points as an "out" when things don't go as planned.

Remember that it takes 3 robots to score 60 bonus points, but only 2 to block the climbers from getting back in time (park sideways between the rack and side of the field, pin them against the side of the field for 9 seconds, etc.) Also, it only takes 1 robot to place a ringer or spoiler that can be worth huge points.

One thing I like about this game is that all three types of scoring (placing ringers, lifting "bonus points", and placing/removing spoilers) are exciting engame winning moves. Every element of scoring is a viable and exciting way to win matches.

This should be fun, good luck everyone!

RAZ

[Swampdude]

All this talk about hybrids not being as effective scorers as arm only bots has me confused. I've seen just as many hybrid scorers as arm only's. I think the key to winning Einstein is "options" and using those "options". I see nothing wrong with a 3 hybrid alliance. Having different ramp options at the end is goodnes, say in the event Paul is blocking your original ramp. Meanwhile the rack is cut in half and they aren't getting the 256 they thought they were, your other ramp partner is setting up and you jump on him.
We're a hybrid and scored 7 ringers in 2 different matches (almost 8 once), and we had partners up 12" in most of our matches (when their drive trains worked). This is the case with lots of hybrids. So picking arm only bots can be a mistake if you have these strong hybrid choices available. I.E. 330, 254, 69, 180, 179 etc etc.
Although I will say that a strong characteristic I don't see mentioned much is a bot that grabs ringers off the far wall. A lot of our matches we ran out of HP ringers and some get popped etc. and we could have scored a couple more, but couldn't go into the opponent zone during the end game to get them. So starting out by working off the far wall is a big bonus to us. I did see a few teams do this pretty well (233 was getting good at this in Las Vegas).

[KTorak]

1 team that DOMINATES offense and can score 5-8 in a match
1 team that can score atleast 3-4, BUT can play defense IF needed
1 team that has 2 easy to use ramps at 12"+ and can play GOOD defense and/or score if needed.

As a side note, you need a robot capable of removing spoilers and a robot that is capable of picking up tubes efficiently from the far side.

You also need a good strategy going into each match. I'll admit to losing some matches that my alliance clearly could have won due to bad planing. If you over exert your scoring, you can let the other alliance in to block you with a tube. Say you score 1, 2, 5 and your partner scores 8, 7, 6 and no one quickly scores 3 and 4 for a row of 8, the opposing alliance may see that and block the row with two tubes, severely limiting your score.

[Frenchie]

In my opinion, the best alliance needs everything in pairs:

2 good scorers
2 good ramps
2 strong drivetrain (capable of playing defense)

That means you get:
1 robot with ramp and scoring ability
1 robot with strong drivertrain and scoring ability
1 robot with ramp and strong drivetrain

This allows you to play each match differently. The opposing alliance will never know who's going to go open their ramp, what kind of defense they have to expect and they cannot double team one of the scorers because that would mean leaving the other one alone.


I believe all alliances will NEED a ramp. The ramp has several advantages:
1) psychological advantages. A rampless alliance usually fears an alliance with a ramp. This sometimes lead alliances to make mistakes such as driving in the homezone in the end to prevent ramping, stopping their scoring to try to defend the other team's ramp, etc...
2) All alliances will have at least one (1) good scorer. An alliance with slightly better scoring capability might win the rack, but I'm sure a defensive atlanta alliance will be able to put on enough tube to make it impossible to have long rows... Hence improving their chances to win on the ramp.
3) Guaranteed 60 points at the end of each match (I'm sure Atlanta will have enough good ramps to call it "guaranteed" in some alliances). Week 5 regionals confirmed that ramp could win even the toughest matches in most cases.

Francois.

[BobC]

1+ ramp/lift capable of 2@12" easily & consistently
2+ bots capable of scoring on all 3 levels
3 bots capable of scoring consistently
1+ bot capable of removing spoilers from all 3 levels
2+ bots with strong drivetrains capable of maintaining position
2+ bots capable of playing defense
1+ bot capable of scoring multiple tubes while being defended
3 bots with great drivers
3 bots that can score in autonomous

My ideal alliance ;)

13 bots in one alliance no room for the other alliance.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

The best alliance will be the one who can effectively use the strengths and abilities of their team's robots and drivers to play upon their opponent's weaknesses and dis-abilities.

Whether their focus be defense, offense, spoiler control, ramps, or whatever else.. it doesn't really matter. Some teams always find a way to win, and I expect nothing different this year.

Example: 177 in 2006. They couldn't very shoot well, but they won 2 regionals and a division. Coincidence? I think not.

[Alpha 997]

Two scoring robots, and a great lift bot capable of 2 robots 12inches high in ~15 seconds or less, every time. They should be able to score one or two tubes, but if they can lift in say, 5 seconds, then I wouldn't worry about being able to score tubes. One or two from them is a plus though.

The way I see it, if one team can get 6 tubes up in the right spots, they are unstoppable if their lifts work. Two vertical rows of three, directly opposite each other, allows the other team to only score 96 points, and that's if they can put up -18- tubes. Now the team that has 6 tubes up, two vertical rows of three, is capable of scoring 76 points, and they only put 6 tubes up. That's three tubes per scoring robot, and if they lift bot puts one up then the other alliance's score goes way down.

With 76 points, the other alliance -has- to score 16 tubes. 16. I don't know why the teams with lifts go for wrap-arounds. Offensive defense is where it is at.

(my math might be off in some places. Correct me as needed)

Exactly! Our team figured that out too. Also, there are only a few tubes that human players can throw, the offensive team would have to get the rest from the opposite side of the field.

[Madison]

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.

By the way, by my count there are at least 24 good scorers in Galileo which means our division has a great chance on Einstein (whoever represents us).

With that said, you great double rampers in Galileo will be a hot commodity since most people believe the ramp is absolutely critical ... I'm just not one of them.

I think it's plausible that an alliance that exclusively plays offense during its matches can win, but it seems like an enormous risk to attempt to do so regularly. You're putting a lot of stock in the superiority of your machines -- perhaps going so far as to think that your three machines can outscore your opponents even while defended. There may be some teams that are that good, but I don't think it's the huge number that some folks do. The pool of teams that can score well if left undefended, however, is gigantic, so why would you want to double or triple the number of teams that can possibly beat your alliance but leaving them alone? Put one defender on the other side of the field and three offensive machines will start to get in one another's way. Put two defenders over there, if you dare, and you can probably shut the factory down and send the workers home -- if you feel confident that you can get those machines back home after you've gone and messed things up quite so badly.

As well as I can see, you're going to want some sort of somewhat dedicated defensive capabilities, so that may as well be a quick, reliable lifting machine. If a defender does their job well, they'll minimize the opponents score such that a 30 or 60 point bonus will be devastating. I'd rather win matches 68-8 than I would to win them 128-64 or something similar; one win is decisive and one is by the skin of your teeth, and obviously, that has nothing to do with which number is bigger.

I guess we'll see. All of this ought to be fun, in any case, and I'll take matches one at a time and think about strategy some more as it requires. There're probably a thousand different scenarios that you could speculate about in advance and doing so will only give me anxiety. :p

[xzvrw2]

Here is an alliance that i would love to see...not because i am bias but becuase it shows what kind of alliance i think will win:

111 469 65

That type of alliance this year would be my perfect alliance. Two really awesome scorers (111 65) and one hybrid that pwns in all aspects of the game (469)

some hybrids that i seen that i liked this year for that area were 107 469 71 1023(they wont be at nats tho) 229

but then again...there is some teams out there that are straight rams that are killer...903 and 247...having one of those two teams on your alliance would be killer. they are awesome at defence and have sweet ramps that will hold two up with no questions asked. 548 too (at least i think they are just a ramp)

some scoreres that i seen that i like this year are teams like 111 65 1504 1114 67 648 1444 45 148 217 123 1126 573 494 1503 (those are just off the top of my head)

those would be my teams that i think that will rock at nats this year...so pretty much get an aliance with any of thise teams and you will pwn

[BRosser314]

Hmmmm ultimate alliance post, as much as I would like to say my team and two other great teams, I will not list any teams but ours. Showing who you pick can sometimes discourgae teams, but I would think the ultimate alliance, would be made up of 1 great ramp bot with great defense, 1 great arm bot with a speedy arm- not needing to be hybrid but can, and 1 hybrid with fast scoring- and a ramp that is 4'x8' and can elevate to 12"- and is a hybrid:D :D

[65_Xero_Huskie]

Here is an alliance that i would love to see...not because i am bias but becuase it shows what kind of alliance i think will win:

111 469 65



Oh, your not biased....Its only the 2003 championship alliance, that you were on the team for. :) To bad it wont happen this year.

[BRosser314]

Oh, your not biased....Its only the 2003 championship alliance, that you were on the team for. :) To bad it wont happen this year.

Gotcha i actually wasnt on the team in 2003, i was on 314, i am a mentor for 469 due to my Co-op job for JSP one of there sponsors. I was on 314 for my high school years

[Guy Davidson]

I'd be very, very afraid from an alliance with a hybrid scorer / ramp and two scorers. Case in point, if any two out of 1114, 330, and 234 and end together (especially if 1114 and 330), I'd be afraid. This is a game that is prone to surprises, but those guys scare me.

[Lil' Lavery]

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.


Paul's strategy works, and it has been used to win a regional. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/28007
The irony is that one of the great hybrids everybody loves isn't even using their ramps, they're using a "ramp trap" on the opponents, holding off both of the opposing bots from getting on 1717's ramps. 696 is also another quality hybrid on that trapping red alliance. Ramps are useful, but not always needed.:)

[AdamHeard]

Paul's strategy works, and it has been used to win a regional. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/28007
The irony is that one of the great hybrids everybody loves isn't even using their ramps, they're using a "ramp trap" on the opponents, holding off both of the opposing bots from getting on 1717's ramps. 696 is also another quality hybrid on that trapping red alliance. Ramps are useful, but not always needed.:)

Yup... we never even saw the trap coming... In fact, at first I thought I was keeping 330 from getting back to ramp... not the other way around...

[Marion]

Our team (1583) has a ramp bot onto which we can lift 2 bots. Come check us out in Atlanta... those 60 points REALLY help!!!

[themagic8ball]

537 was seeded 7th and we were able to pick both martians (I consider amazing scorers). It is a High Risk/high reward strategy. The problem we ran into is that we ran out of tubes at the end of the match. What you really need to make it work is 3 scorers that can pick up from the other side of the field very fast.

[hayakuneko]

realistically, the best alliance at atlanta will consist of one hybrid, one awesome scoring machine, and a bot that can score with experienced drivers to play mostly defense.

i feel somewhat bad for saying this, but the winning alliance at atlanta won't have a defensive/ramp bot as the #1 or #2 bot in the alliance. Don't bag on me for this, it's just my opinion based on what i've seen from the two regionals i've been to this year.

for example: 1070 was a great defensive/ramp bot at LA and they seeded #1; however they lost in I think it was semis or quarters? I don't know, but they lost and their first pick was 968. 330 on the other hand (a hybrid) was chosen by 254 who is an awesome scoring machine. Right from that moment, they were destined to win LA cuz there was no other alliance that could match them in pure scoring power.

on to what i was going to say. either the #1 bot in the winning alliance will be a hybrid bot (such as 330), then the #2 bot will be the pure scorer or it will be the other way around. The reason I put down defensive bots is because defense cannot win a game. Not, at least, without scoring going on in the background. I had a qualifying against 330 in SD where the coach decided to have us play with a defensive strategy. We were lucky to hold them to 16 pts and if we had another scoring robot on our alliance we could have won that match.

And the #3 bot on the winning alliance will have an experienced driver with a robot that can score, but not necessarily score well.

so there, defense can't really win on its own and I figure defense requires an experienced driver as opposed to "designing" a robot around a defensive strategy. Sure you can design the drivetrain around it, but a lot of the robots i've seen have shifting trannys anyways with a low-defensive-gear and a high-speed-gear. I think someone else out there can agree with me, or at least I hope so.

ok recap:
The seeded bot - a) scoring hybrid or b) pure scorer
First pick - a) pure scorer or b) scoring hybrid
Second pick - scoring bot w/ experienced drivers

[Chris Fultz]

I'm with Paul (I think).

Three good or great scoring robots can beat out 2 scorers with a ramp -
why, i saw it time and time again -

at 1:30, the ramp bot retreats to the home zone, 1 opposing robot is now 'free to score'
at 1:40, the other two bots retreat to the home zone, 2 more opposing robots now 'free to score'.

during ramp time - the three scorers put up another 6 - 9 tubes or spoilers and create more than the 60 points from the ramps.

:yikes:

[BBnum3]

I'm with Paul (I think).

Three good or great scoring robots can beat out 2 scorers with a ramp -
why, i saw it time and time again -

at 1:30, the ramp bot retreats to the home zone, 1 opposing robot is now 'free to score'
at 1:40, the other two bots retreat to the home zone, 2 more opposing robots now 'free to score'.

during ramp time - the three scorers put up another 6 - 9 tubes or spoilers and create more than the 60 points from the ramps.

:yikes:

I think what you describe will happen--most of the time. With the right strategy and execution the ramp alliance has a good shot at the win. Defense is the key to the ramp alliance's success. That alliance needs to place tubes defensively to limit big rows, and the ramp needs to defend the opposing alliance's best scorer. Assuming all of the tube scoring bots are all of similar caliber this is a viable strategy. If the ramp alliance prevents any rows of more than 4 then the max score of the opposing alliance is 88. Not a bad score, but it assumes the rest of the rack is full.

Also the idea that 6-9 tubes could be put up during ramp time is not realistic. By this point in the match the 3 scorers alliance has most likely used up all of the alliance station ringers, and can't go to the other side to pick them up because of the endgame. I could see 4 or so in the last 30 seconds, but not much more. However, it's still enough to swing the outcome of the match.

What we're not taking into account here is the placing of keepers. Expect some of the top alliances to have two, if not three robots that can place keepers. If that alliance happens (and I think we'll see one) watch out.

[Joel J]

I'm with Paul (I think).

Three good or great scoring robots can beat out 2 scorers with a ramp -
why, i saw it time and time again -

at 1:30, the ramp bot retreats to the home zone, 1 opposing robot is now 'free to score'
at 1:40, the other two bots retreat to the home zone, 2 more opposing robots now 'free to score'.

during ramp time - the three scorers put up another 6 - 9 tubes or spoilers and create more than the 60 points from the ramps.

:yikes:
You also aren't factoring in being blocked from making long rows by the opposing alliance.. whether on purpose, or simply from them playing the game and scoring.

When these matches heat up I say each alliance will have ramps, and the bonus points from those ramps will usually cancel each other out (the alliances without ramps won't make it to the "heat of the competition," IMO).. also, I think the rack will be close to neutral-- that is, each alliance will have a similar score on the rack. The alliance that comes out on top in these matches will be the ones capable of scoring the larger quantity of tubes in the most optimum locations on the rack. I'm seeing scores like 60+38 to 30+52, or something like that, when the competition begins to heat up.

[Travis Hoffman]

Yup... we never even saw the trap coming... In fact, at first I thought I was keeping 330 from getting back to ramp... not the other way around...

Welcome to my parlor, said the spider to the fly.

Great example of DEFENSE by offensive guys to win. Defense wins championships woooooooooooooooot.

[burkechrs1]

I think three offensive robots can win. I don't think they all need to be "great" scoring robots though. AS long as they can put up 3 or 4 tubes in a match they are a threat. Put 2 robots that score 3 or 4 tubes plus one that can score 5-7 tubes and you have yourself a killer alliance. It's very hard to defend 1v1. It's easy for the offensive robot to pull away and run then score elsewhere. Another benefit to that strategy is if one robot is being hit are they can back off from scoring and defend the other two offensive robots. There is no way to shut down an alliance that is all offense. It is possible to keep them from scoring a row of 7 or 8 but still. All they need is a row of 6 and ramps are useless against them. And you cant say well the other alliance can score too and then it will be 64-4 or 64-8 and ramps can work again because then that leaves the match 3v2 and the offensive alliance's score will be even higher. I think if an offensive alliance is put together and strategizes wight they could very well be an unstoppable force, as long as they can score 6 tubes total in a match.

Just my .02

[MFennig8]

All you guys are syaing that u need 3 scorers or two scorers.....no all u need is an alliance that works together and are good communicators....us, 123 and 903 won detroit because we communicated well.....only 1 of us could socre on the rack and that was 123, us and 903 just played defense and we were ramp bot....all u need in conisitency and a good defender to win

[razor95kds]

My ideal alliance is the one that wins. :)

[redbarron]

The best alliance is the alliance that can play any strategy. This means that they need 3 scorers. One or two of them need to be a ramp/arm hybrid. Atleast two of them also need to have a powerful drive train. This alliance has it all, the arm/ramp hybrid is their ramp if the strategy calls for it. The two with the powerful drivetrains if needed can play defense while the other hangs ringers like crazy. When combined this alliance has three scoring robots, a ramp bot, and 2 defensive bots. This alliance most of all needs a strategy that is well known between them, but there will be a number of strategies to use depending on the robots they are facing. What kind of alliance can overcome them besides one with a better strategy?

[Donut]

I've changed my perfect alliance.

Whichever alliance can score 4+ tubes in autonomous is the one that will win. :D

Honestly though, I wonder how much autonomous will be a factor when the Divisional Finals and the Einstein matches happen.

[Vogel648]

Autonomous may be huge, depending on how many people try defensive autonomous modes. If a alliance can get 2+ keepers on, they will almost always beat a team that gets 0 on.

[Ericgehrken]

A single autonomous mode can be worth as much as 224 points if each member of your alliance scores and you place five more tubes to form a row of eight.

[seraphim33]

2 defensive bots cpable of 2@12
1 great scorer


thats way the 2 defensive bots will limit scoring and the scorer will provide points during the match and the end 60 should do it

[JackN]

3 Hangers/Ramp Hybrids
1 Swerve Drive
2 Of the best 6WDs ever
1 Canadian
1 Californian
1 Michiganian

Take a guess who I am talking about.

This alliance can change their game plan, each match and can out hang all other alliances. This is the "Best" Atlanta Alliance.

[BRAVESaj25bd8]

One pretty good tube scorer with a 60 point bonus capability.
One pretty good tube scorer that can get the bonus points using the mechanism from the previous robot.
One defensive bot who can handle a spoiler and get the other 30 bonus points.

I think this alliance would be awesome and would definitely have a tough time formulating a strategy to beat these 3 teams.

[Lil' Lavery]

3 Hangers/Ramp Hybrids
1 Swerve Drive
2 Of the best 6WDs ever
1 Canadian
1 Californian
1 Michiganian

Take a guess who I am talking about.

This alliance can change their game plan, each match and can out hang all other alliances. This is the "Best" Atlanta Alliance.

Something tells me that 330, 469, and 1114 will all be gone before the 2nd round, making this a little bit unlikely.... :rolleyes: