It's Championship, Not Nationals [Archive]

Joe Matt

08-04-2007, 17:18

Cory

08-04-2007, 17:19

Someone should tell Dean.

He still calls it Nationals ;)

Michelle Celio

08-04-2007, 17:29

I've only been in FIRST for 2 years (second season so not a full two years), and when I was first told about the event it was introduced to me as "Nationals".
I'M GOING TO NATIONALS WOO
You're always going to have the veterans that say it out of habit, and that will influence the younger generation to call it that also.
I'M GOING TO CHAMPIONSHIP WOO
I have recently gotten into the habit of calling it "ATL" but I also tend to call it everything, ATL, Champs, CMP, Championship, and Nationals.
I'M GOING TO ATL WOO

burkechrs1

08-04-2007, 17:33

Greg Marra

08-04-2007, 17:34

Part of the problem with "The Championship" vs. "Nationals" stems from the words themselves. "The Championship" requires a "the", because saying "I am going to the Championship" is the only way to say it that makes sense. "I am going to Nationals" is shorter and more flexible. Furthermore, "nats" is a much easier abbreviation than "champs", especially in oral communication.

Michelle Celio

08-04-2007, 17:39

Yea Dean still calls it nationals. He called it that at SVR. So as far as I'm concerned if the guy that runs the show calls it nationals it must be OK.
Just because Dean is the FOUNDER of FIRST doesn't mean he runs the whole event. No single person can run the whole event. And just because one VERY important individual states something, doesn't necessarily mean that it is the correct way to continue.

And besides why did you start a thread on this. It's..... pointless.
I feel that Joe started this thread to try and spread awareness that "The Championship" is the more (and I use this lightly) "Politically Correct" term for the event. You have to keep in mind that there are teams from all over the world attending this event, not just teams from The United States, while FVC and FLL bring in more foreign teams than FRC, FRC still brings in teams from Canada, The UK, Brazil, Isreal, Mexico and The Netherlands.

Travis Hoffman

08-04-2007, 17:40

raymaniac

08-04-2007, 17:43

I think that as long as everyone knows what you're talking about, which they typically do, either one is fine.

Technically you're right, but it's a minor detail and it's still the same event.

Now if there were to be national compititions in adition to the championship, that would be a different story...

Cory

08-04-2007, 17:43

sanddrag

08-04-2007, 17:44

I call it "The World Championship" It sounds most impressive when we talk to potential sponsors.

Alan Anderson

08-04-2007, 17:50

Yea Dean still calls it nationals. He called it that at SVR. So as far as I'm concerned if the guy that runs the show calls it nationals it must be OK.

And besides why did you start a thread on this. It's..... pointless.

Joe started this thread for people like you who don't know that using the proper name is important. It's only pointless if you refuse to acknowledge that the Championship isn't named "Nationals" anymore.

The Lucas

08-04-2007, 17:51

Or simply call it, "The Event".

How bout "The Show" (Okay, Baseball season just started, I know I'm not the only fan)

Maybe if we get a good nickname to stick, everyone (myself included) will stop calling it "nats" in a couple years.

Freddy Schurr

08-04-2007, 17:53

It should be called "The World Championship Event" not "The Championship Event". In my opinion the latter does not sound as impressive as "Nationals" when conversing with someone outside of FIRST. The championship event of what? Your county? State? etc.

Yep, I am totally agreeing with the above statement because we have international teams coming from around the world and I feel that its a disrespect to not recognize all the achievements and accomplishments of these FRC,FLL,JFLL,and FVC teams.

I call it "The World Championship" It sounds most impressive when we talk to potential sponsors.

Also agree with this statement! It sounds more professional when talking to potential sponsors and trying to raise money for this prestigious event.

Kyle

08-04-2007, 17:56

The Championship, The Championship Event, The World Championship, The international Championship, Internationals, Champs, Nationals, Nat's, ATL...

I just call it the best time of my life.

Joe is correct it is no longer Nationals due to the many international teams that participate in the various events at the Championship Event.

When talking to outsiders, a.k.a non FIRST people, I always use the World Championship because it sounds much better and gives somewhat of a better description of what occurs.

See all of you in ATL :)

Guy Davidson

08-04-2007, 18:00

How bout "The Show" (Okay, Baseball season just started, I know I'm not the only fan)

Maybe if we get a good nickname to stick, everyone (myself included) will stop calling it "nats" in a couple years.
The Spring Classic? The April Classic?

-Guy

Jeremiah Johnson

08-04-2007, 18:01

I like to call it Hotlanta... but that's a personal thing. Otherwise, I call it "The World Championship Event." If I'm out to impress, I say, "The International Championship, hosting over 300 teams from 6 nations of the world."

raymaniac

08-04-2007, 18:02

How about

"The 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition International World Championship Event Of Atlanta Consisting Of Competition, Gracious Professionalism, Robots, And Geeky Fun"?

Somehow I doubt it will catch on

:D

Greg Marra

08-04-2007, 18:02

How about calling it "Internationals"? I'm going to Internats - yeah!

Or simply call it, "The Event".

I've been reading about Internats all day on the Internets.

IndySam

08-04-2007, 18:05

The problem with calling it “The Championship” is that it doesn’t mean anything to non-FIRSTers. Championship of what?

Calling it the Nationals sounds more impressive and descriptive (esp. when you are trying to raise money.)

I have gotten into the habit of calling it the “World Championship” to outsiders.

JaneYoung

08-04-2007, 18:07

Word of FIRST is getting out. I'm having people from all over the place contacting me and asking me what is going on in Atlanta. I want to make sure that I use the correct terminology when providing information to them.

Also, each year, our team has new students and their parents enter the team as seniors and their parents become alumni. If we give mixed signals to the new members, it will never get straight. It is good to start from the beginning with the correct terminology in spoken and written form.

It takes practice just like everything.
Jane

Stvn

08-04-2007, 18:13

Maybe if we get a good nickname to stick, everyone (myself included) will stop calling it "nats" in a couple years.
The Spring Classic? The April Classic?

-Guy

I like to call it Hotlanta...

How about

"The 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition International World Championship Event Of Atlanta Consisting Of Competition, Gracious Professionalism, Robots, And Geeky Fun"?

Somehow I doubt it will catch on

:D

I'm for "That Which Must Not Be Named." The only problem with it is that nobody would have any idea what we're talking about. It's hard for something to catch on if nobody understands what it is talking about.

Jonathan Norris

08-04-2007, 18:19

Yea Dean still calls it nationals. He called it that at SVR. So as far as I'm concerned if the guy that runs the show calls it nationals it must be OK.

I don't know if Dean has got the memo.... an International team won the Championships last year :p

Rich Ross

08-04-2007, 18:22

How about....

THE BIG ONE!!!!!!!

And btw, Dean doesn't run the show. He's a big part of FIRST, but saying that is like saying Bush runs the country. Does he have a big say? Yes. Does he "run the show?" No.

GET HYPE for THE BIG ONE!!!

Koko Ed

08-04-2007, 18:26

Jeremiah Johnson

08-04-2007, 18:26

Dean runs FIRST as much as the royal family runs England.

Simply stated, he's the face and the beginning factor.

Libby K

08-04-2007, 18:27

And btw, Dean doesn't run the show. He's a big part of FIRST, but saying that is like saying Bush runs the country. Does he have a big say? Yes. Does he "run the show?" No.

+5 points to Rich.

Dean doesn't run the show, he just started the show, and stays a part of it.
for michelle: "silly folks, i run the show! nepotism ftw!"

Also, Dean still calls it Nationals on impulse, just like I do. Everyone who's been around calls it that....that DOESN'T mean we shouldn't try to teach ourselves to say Championship, World Championship, or whatever you choose to [accurately] call it.

Second Edit:
Dean runs FIRST as much as the royal family runs England.

Not quite. The royal family in England is ceremonial...but Dean is still on the GDC and Board of Supervisors.

Sorry....I had to. I get what you mean, though...

Otaku

08-04-2007, 18:29

Lets just call it Atlanta and get it over with ;)

santosh

08-04-2007, 18:42

I like this thread a lot because most of the seniority of our team try and correct our team when they call it nationals. It is not nationals, it is the championships.
Or the international championships. it seems more inviting towards foreign teams when it is not called nationals. idk that is just how i feel.

Billfred

08-04-2007, 18:47

It should be called "The World Championship Event" not "The Championship Event". In my opinion the latter does not sound as impressive as "Nationals" when conversing with someone outside of FIRST. The championship event of what? Your county? State? etc.
Which is when I turn up the emphasis: The Championship. ;)

I'm willing to let it slide in conversation (compare with when someone says another person "did good"), but come on, this is the Internet! You can go back and fix it before you post!

But, I admit, anyone around me has probably heard me talk about Atlanta far too much.

raymaniac

08-04-2007, 19:34

But, I admit, anyone around me has probably heard me talk about Atlanta far too much.

When I'm talking with friends I say things like "I'm won't be here this Friday, I'm going to Atlanta" Because most of them know why I'll ge there. But if they don't know and ask why I say I'm going to the robotics championship.

We could call it The anual migration and gathering of FIRSTers. :D

Ericgehrken

08-04-2007, 19:53

If there is to be a Champion crowned there then it should be called the Championships. If there are teams from outside the U.S. then it is not a national competition but rather a World Championship.

Scott Carpman

08-04-2007, 19:58

On all documents, I call it the World Championship. Just makes it seem that much more important to the general public.

Otaku

08-04-2007, 20:11

Just saw this in the CD Portal...

http://www.lotechdesigns.com/host/images/2075New Bitmap Image.JPG

(I added the LOL, of course)

JoeXIII'007

08-04-2007, 20:17

Personal opinion, take what you will:

Nationals is how I knew it first when my sister screamed into the phone back in 2002 that "we had won 'nationals'"

Nowadays, considering its an international event, I like calling it the Championship Event, or just plain the championship or Champs.

World Championship goes a little too bold, in that we have yet to see teams come from the North and South Poles to compete :p (Santa and his Elves have a team yet??? Whats their number???)... I stick to calling the Champs an International event. ;)

So its champs, and its fun that way, at least in my perspective.

*shrugs*

-Joe

PS: or we could just call it that big thingy/gathering down in Atlanta... yeah... :rolleyes:

Alan Anderson

08-04-2007, 20:25

Lets just call it Atlanta and get it over with ;)

Let's not. I'm rooting for the Championship to be hosted in Indianapolis in the near future, and I don't want the place name being too closely associated with the event.

Too many people still act like Epcot is the "natural" home of the First Robotics Competition Championship as it is. :p

Stephen Kowski

08-04-2007, 20:28

If we give mixed signals to the new members, it will never get straight.

I never give mixed signals, I always call it Nationals :p

I am wrong to call it that, but all my days of doing presentations has conditioned me to it.

I wonder if any of the veteran Canadians that were around for when it was called Nationals still call it that (Kathik? Ian? other woburners?) accidentally or if it is only the folks in the US that make this mistake.

P.S. I dream of the day that FIRST comes back to it's home in Disney, FIRST's "natural home".

Tim Arnold

08-04-2007, 20:40

I call them "Internationals" when I want people to be impressed. Otherwise I could care less, everybody still knows what you are talking about.

TheIrishOne

08-04-2007, 20:45

How bout "The Show" (Okay, Baseball season just started, I know I'm not the only fan)

Speaking of baseball and politically correct terms of championship events... why is the baseball championship called the "World Series"? ;)

Nothing is ever going to be politcally correct in today's world. Something will always anger someone else. I just call it "Nationals" out of habit and don't really plan on changing that.

Karthik

08-04-2007, 20:50

I wonder if any of the veteran Canadians that were around for when it was called Nationals still call it that (Karthik? Ian? other woburners?) accidentally or if it is only the folks in the US that make this mistake.

Yup, I call it Nationals all the time. The Championship Event has never had the right ring to me. I'd love it if FIRST officially changed the name to "The World Championships" and then we could all say "I'm going to Worlds next week". I know that's the terminology all my friends who've competed in amateur sports (swimming, diving, etc.) have used. Makes it sound like a big deal.

Dan Petrovic

08-04-2007, 21:27

I like Nationals better for a couple reasons

Saying that we're going to the Championship event in Atlanta implies that we won and earned our way, however in most cases, we haven't.

Also, when I refer to the teams who won the whole event, Championship Champions sounds rediculous. National Champions sounds better.

I don't really want to seem like I'm ignoring the teams from out of the country (it's kind of hard to ignore the Canadian teams :ahh: ), but it just is easier to say, easier to listen to, and sounds better.

Maybe we should call it worlds? There are many more Vex teams and Lego teams from other countries that show up to Atlanta. Worlds would make the most sense.

Or I just refer to it as "Atlanta".

Pat Fairbank

08-04-2007, 21:38

Also, when I refer to the teams who won the whole event, Championship Champions sounds rediculous. National Champions sounds better."National Champions" just isn't right, though, if one of the winning teams is not American, as was the case last year.

My vote goes for "World Championships". This name has the added benefit that regional MCs won't get in trouble with FIRST if they happen to introduce a team as the "World Champions" (yes, it did happen).

Kelly

08-04-2007, 21:49

Some more productive pedagogy:
"Definitely" means without a doubt while "defiantly" is a synonym for rebelliously.
"You're" is short for "you are". "Your" is an adjective used to show possession.
"They're" is short for "they are". "There" indicates a location. "Their" is another adjective used to show possession.
"It's" is short for "it is". "Its" is another one of those pesky adjectives used to show possession.
http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/
Finally it's G-A-L-I-L-E-O!

Cartwright

08-04-2007, 22:53

I don't think it really matters what you call it...both names make it sound big, great, loud, and wonderful event all around....but I like to say the Championship because it does acknowledge all the international teams. Really having those teams is a great thing, and it's a sign of achievement in the FIRST community!

Beth Sweet

08-04-2007, 23:04

I think of it this way. We have world teams competing, so why wouldn't we call it the World Championships? Look at the threads, who is everyone calling this year's top contender? Who got picked top 5 in every FF? A Canadian team. When FIRST accepted them into the organization, we accepted them into our titles. Besides that, I think that being world champions will be much more fun than national champions ;) :p

Jeff Waegelin

08-04-2007, 23:51

I'm one of those people who still reflexively calls it "Nationals". If I think about it, or I'm writing something out, I'll usually take the time to correct myself. However, in general conversation, I'm still apt to call it "Nationals"... old habits die hard.

That being said, if they were to officially start calling it the "World Championship", I think I could live with that. Just calling it the "Championship Event" has never sounded right, to me.

MGoelz

09-04-2007, 00:00

Though most in the FIRST community know what you mean when you say "Nationals," there are those that will take it literally, so I think it's better to stick with something to the effect of "The Championship" to prevent confusion and an entire thread dedicated to this topic. In addition to that, when speaking to those outside of FIRST, I'm sure that using the word "world" will imply what you're talking about, without having to further explain what you mean.:D

LightWaves1636

09-04-2007, 01:04

My team says Championships when talking to people outside our team and until it's not at the Georgia Dome, we're in the habit of saying Atlanta. Our coach says Nationals though:rolleyes: .

Storcky

09-04-2007, 08:24

Last year, when we went, we always said (er...screamed) "WE"RE GOING TO ATLANTA!" to other members on the team. When explaining it to anybody else, we first said that we were going to Championships, and then further explained that we would be competing with hundreds of teams from around the world.

KathieK

09-04-2007, 08:45

This is one (of many) of my biggest pet peeves in FIRST.

I have recently held a conversation with FIRST about use of correct terminology, and will be including those tips in the upcoming NEMO white paper on marketing your team via your team website.

If you are a member of the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC), you are attending the "FIRST Robotics Competition Championship." You have previously competed in FRC Regional Competitions this season.

If you are a member of the FIRST Vex Challenge (FVC), you are attending the "FIRST Vex Challenge World Championship." You have previously competed in FVC Championship Tournaments this season.

If you are a member of the FIRST LEGO League (FLL), you are attending the "FIRST LEGO League World Festival." You previously competed in FLL Championship Tournaments this season.

Jon236

09-04-2007, 08:47

Kathy,

So, is using 'FRC' 'FVC' and 'FLL' not ok anymore?

Jon Mittelman

Mike Martus

09-04-2007, 08:48

WOW! We all must be in the EYE of the storm waiting for the winds to pick up again.

Interesting how the use of words for an event can mean different things to different people...while we all know why we are going... to celebrate a segment of our lives that will change us and the world forever.

Greg Perkins

09-04-2007, 09:22

The word "Nationals" is a unisex tag, meaning that it doesn't apply to just one national; that simple little "s" makes it plural. Nationals means that many nations are competing in a competition between your nation and other nations. I really don't see what the big deal is, I think when someone says "we're going to Nationals this year" I instantly know more than "our team is going to the Championship".

Let's focus on something more useful than making threads about a word.

Conor Ryan

09-04-2007, 09:26

I've been in FIRST since '04, it was called the Championship then so thats what I call it, I've caught myself calling it Nationals once or twice, but I still like calling it the Championship.

My personal favorite is when Canadians refer to it as 'Nationals'

Alex Cormier

09-04-2007, 09:28

My personal favorite is when Canadians refer to it as 'Nationals'

hehe, canadians. :p

Billfred

09-04-2007, 09:37

Kathy,

So, is using 'FRC' 'FVC' and 'FLL' not ok anymore?

Jon MittelmanNo, they're still fair game to describe the programs. For better reading: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=2359

JaneYoung

09-04-2007, 10:22

Interesting how the use of words for an event can mean different things to different people...while we all know why we are going... to celebrate a segment of our lives that will change us and the world forever.

Nice Mike! Thank you.
Jane

P.S. It is hard to wait. :)

Jeremiah Johnson

09-04-2007, 10:54

No, they're still fair game to describe the programs. For better reading: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=2359

So, according to Mr. Marchiony... our team can't present ourselves as QC Elite FIRST Robotics Team #648... instead it should be QC Elite FIRST Robotics Competition Team #648.

KathieK

09-04-2007, 17:09

So, according to Mr. Marchiony... our team can't present ourselves as QC Elite FIRST Robotics Team #648... instead it should be QC Elite FIRST Robotics Competition Team #648.That is correct, if that is the program you are participating in. Since my focus is more on FVC now I would assume you are an FVC team without it!

I am a "wordsmith" I guess, and a strong stickler for details (as any poor soul who has worked with me would know). I send corrections to webmasters when I find misspelled words or typos on their sites. Saying that words don't really matter is like saying you can use a widget when a gizmo is really what is needed. (And that's as technical an explanation as you're going to get from me).

And to all the members of NEMO - you are "NEMs" - pronounced "neem" - not NEMOs. :)

burkechrs1

09-04-2007, 17:15

KathieK

09-04-2007, 18:03

Doesn't the word "team" mean you will be in a competition of some sort. To me saying Robotics Competition Team sounds a little redundant.

The Apes of Wrath, Pioneer High School Robotics Competition Team #668..... Ugh. I'll stick to Robotics Team, or Vex Team, or Lego League Team. No "Competition" needed.

But that's just my opinion.If you are paticipating in the FRC program, the name of your program is the FIRST Robotics Competition; like it or not, "Competition" is part of the name of the program.
There is no such thing as a "Vex Team" in FIRST. Vex refers to the Vex Robotics Design System, the parts that are used to make the robot. The program is called FIRST Vex Challenge.
FIRST LEGO (capitalized) League is the name of the program for 9-14 year olds.

BandChick

09-04-2007, 18:12

Doesn't the word "team" mean you will be in a competition of some sort. To me saying Robotics Competition Team sounds a little redundant.

The Apes of Wrath, Pioneer High School Robotics Competition Team #668..... Ugh. I'll stick to Robotics Team, or Vex Team, or Lego League Team. No "Competition" needed.

But that's just my opinion.

It's just a matter of the name of the PROGRAM. Whether it's implied or not, it's still the official title. Want to save yourself time? Say you're part of FRC Team # 668. And then when people ask you what FRC is, then you worry about the competition part =)

Zyik

09-04-2007, 18:42

-"Championships"
-Atlanta
- etc

I dont think it really matters what you call it. As long as you respect what goes on and do your part to insure that the spirt of the competition is never harmed it shouldn't matter. You could call it, "That one spot I'd give my arm to go to again," or "That place we dont have the money to go to next year."

Steve W

09-04-2007, 23:22

hehe, canadians. :p

OK now the gloves are off. I have been sitting here patiently reading the fluff. As many know Nationals is a pet peeve of mine. The fact is that Nationals are what nations do before going to the Championship. Seeing that we have Regionals that we go to and teams from all countries are invited to, these are not Nationals. To the fact that other countries are invited to Championship then it could not be construed as Nationals. As for World Champions (Karthik you are bad) seeing that countries do not have Nationals to determine who is to go to the World Championship then again we go back to Championship.

I may be wrong here but I have never know anyone who has not thought of Championship of any sort as not being the final wrap up to determine the best of the best.

Alex, :p :p :p

Please note that there is humor in this post and that there is no (well almost) anger towards Alex.

Jeremiah Johnson

09-04-2007, 23:31

That is correct, if that is the program you are participating in. Since my focus is more on FVC now I would assume you are an FVC team without it!

I am a "wordsmith" I guess, and a strong stickler for details (as any poor soul who has worked with me would know). I send corrections to webmasters when I find misspelled words or typos on their sites. Saying that words don't really matter is like saying you can use a widget when a gizmo is really what is needed. (And that's as technical an explanation as you're going to get from me).

And to all the members of NEMO - you are "NEMs" - pronounced "neem" - not NEMOs. :)

I'm a stickler for words, too. I'll bring this up when we have time to deal with it... however, I doubt it will change. It's on all of our banners and they aren't cheap. FIRST will probably have to live with the fact that we omit a word.

nonother

10-04-2007, 00:08

Well for people that want to refer to it with one word (nationals) instead of having to use two (the championship), you can do what my team has started calling it:

Globals

Compromise?

MGoelz

10-04-2007, 00:12

I like it; simple and to the point. No need for explanation on this one.:D

Jeremiah Johnson

10-04-2007, 00:38

Well for people that want to refer to it with one word (nationals) instead of having to use two (the championship), you can do what my team has started calling it:

Globals

Compromise?

Hurts my tongue. :eek:

I don't know the correct answer for what to call it, but whatever you feel like calling it, you can call it (as long as you don't call it nationals around me).

TKM.368

10-04-2007, 06:02

Well for people that want to refer to it with one word (nationals) instead of having to use two (the championship), you can do what my team has started calling it:

Globals

Compromise?

Globals was my thought as well. We could take it a step further and take after the Miss Universe competition and just call it Universals - how much more impressive can you get than that!

On another note, I don't see anything wrong with 'Nationals' as long as the website remains www.USfirst.org (http://www.USfirst.org)!

KathieK

10-04-2007, 06:17

(Throwing my hands up in the air...) I'm leaving now to drive to the FVC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS... If anyone wishes to debate this wordsmithing with me further, look for me there! :)

dlavery

10-04-2007, 07:26

(Throwing my hands up in the air...) I'm leaving now to drive to the FVC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS... If anyone wishes to debate this wordsmithing with me further, look for me there! :)

Well, since every VEX event is a "Championship" event, I am not sure that is much of a differentiator (according to the list of events (http://www.usfirst.org/community/fvc/events.aspx?id=720&menu_id=84) on the FIRST web site, the only exception appears to be the South Carolina "League Tournament" held in January - everything else is a "Championship").

-dave

David Brinza

10-04-2007, 11:04

I may be wrong here but I have never know anyone who has not thought of Championship of any sort as not being the final wrap up to determine the best of the best.
OK, maybe it could be called "The FIRST Robotics Finals"?

(Is it just me, or was Steve W's triple negative sentence a bit of a brain twister?;) )

Jessica Boucher

10-04-2007, 11:16

Joe Matt

10-04-2007, 11:43

As far as I can see, the intent of the thread was a reminder to everyone to stop calling the CMP "Nationals", and aside from my personal opinion about the issue or the thread, the thread has evolved into something entirely different.

Please, back on topic! Thanks in advance :)

Thanks Jess, I didn't mean for this to be me yelling or anything, I just wanted to remind people that it's called Champs for a reason, and that as FIRST gets bigger and has more attention placed on it, we need to standardize what we call it. It's like using a combination of the new and old logo.

:]

kawelch

10-04-2007, 11:46

Champs, Nationals, Global...whatever... I'm still not going...sigh

burkechrs1

10-04-2007, 12:22

Does the "s" in the words nationals mean their is more than one nation going. So doesn't that mean it is right? Now if it was the national championship or what not then it would be wrong. But doesn't the words nationalS mean to intend more than one nation? This is one of the few logical reasons I still call it that.

But all in all it is just a name. Nothing in this country is 100% politically correct ie. World Series, and until out of country teams start to seriously feel offended then I don't see a problem with it. Seriously if your an out of countrty team and you feel offeneded like somebody is not recognizing you as a team or leaving you out for being a part of the FIRST Organization then speak up, otherwise the only reason to argue this is just to argue.

But then again, I'm not an English teacher or a crazy smart guy when it comes to spelling and grammar, I'm just an average senior on a robotics team. But is this really necesary to argue? Is it that important to people, and I mean because they feel offended not because it is politically incorrect.

This all my opinion so don't go attacking me because of my words. I have a right to an opinion. Have a great day. See you all at the... na..... cham..... on Thursday =D

raymaniac

10-04-2007, 12:23

I think that World championships or Globals will work until we get teams from other planets...

Dave, you and the rest of the people at NASA need to get working on that...

JaneYoung

10-04-2007, 12:29

I think that World championships or Globals will work until we get teams from other planets...

Dave, you and the rest of the people at NASA need to get working on that...

If I said 'Globals' out loud, it would get stuck in the roof of my mouth and would sound like gumballs - and I don't think my mother would ever 'get' Globals. She 'gets' The Championship and she 'got' Nationals.

Come on Thursday!

Brandon Holley

10-04-2007, 13:03

I have watched this thread for a couple days, haven't replied, but have thought a little bit. Here is something I would just like to say:

I think everyone is aware that "nationals" does not represent what the actual competition entails. However, people must also understand it was nationals for a long time, and its hard to break out of that mold. I constantly am correcting myself for saying nationals instead of championships, but its just how I learned it. It has been almost 7 years in FIRST for me, and when I first learned about NATIONALS, thats what they were known as.

I agree with the big push to try and get everyone on board the championship bus, but please understand when people let nationals slip out, its not because they are being disrespectful to teams competing from outside of the U.S., but because thats how they probably learned about nationals/championships. I know thats what my situation is....thanks everyone.

jerry w

10-04-2007, 13:18

If you are just looking for an easy term to use, then you should say that you are going to WORC.

The World Of Robotics Championship (WORC) can describe the entire event. It involves people from all over the world, doing all forms of robotics. Also, it is a lot of work. However, it is the most fun work that I have ever done.

WORC is easy to say and follows the pattern of naming FRC, FVC, etc...
but WORC is easier to say then most of the other acronyms (except NEMO).

I will see you at WORC in ATL.

jerry w

kawelch

10-04-2007, 13:45

The World Of Robotics Championship (WORC)
jerry w

I'm going to work?

emoss_5

29-04-2008, 12:31

i just call it "The world finals"
cuz well yea most of the world is there... the robotics world anyways.
know matter wat is called its still fun :D

robochick1319

29-04-2008, 15:50

It's been 7 years since it's been called Nationals, so people, please stop calling it that. There are many international teams, both in FRC, FLL, JFLL, and FVC, and calling the competition Nationals instead of the proper title, Championship, ignores those teams and their achievements. Calling it Nationals doesn't make you old skool or anything; it makes you look lazy and frankly somewhat ignorant.

Please, it's Championship. The sub-forum is labeled it, FIRST hasn't called it that in many years, and teams from all over the world attend the event, it's not a "national" event in any stretch of the imagination.

*gets off soap box*

Ok I admit it! I do still call it Nationals.

Sorry but old habits die hard. As a kid growing up with this thing I have always known it as Nationals and always will.

But let's be honest here. If it were REALLY a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP wouldn't there be a LARGER number of foreign teams. No offense or anything but most teams are STILL from the U.S.

I love the idea of a Worldwide Championship but when you are telling people in the community about your upcoming FRC event and you call it World Champs you are implying the MOST countries attend the event. When in fact for FRC there aren't more than 10 or 11 I believe. Out of nearly 200 or so countries that is hardly a world competition.

And furthermore, dude, does it really matter?

I think we all just need some more time in the sun to relax and unwind.

HAGS!!

Joe Matt

29-04-2008, 15:54

I just wanted to remind people that it's called Champs for a reason, and that as FIRST gets bigger and has more attention placed on it, we need to standardize what we call it. It's like using a combination of the new and old logo.

That's all that needs to be said. Especially with Dean's HW this year, we need to all be on the same page.

You don't see McDonald's throwing around "i'm lovin it" and "Did somebody say McDonalds?" anymore do you? No..

JaneYoung

29-04-2008, 15:57

When the winners of the robot competition were announced on Einstein this year, how were they presented? (We had to leave a little early.)

And, how are award winners marketing their wins to the press this year?

Oh also, when teams approached sponsors for money to help them get to Atlanta, how did they market the event to their sponsors?

(We still have plenty of people on our team that use the term, Nationals, btw.)

Boydean

29-04-2008, 16:33

I have been calling Championships since I found out that they started calling it Championships. I know when I walked up to the pit admin the little screens said "Welcome to Nationals" but that must have been a typo.

Alan Anderson

29-04-2008, 16:37

I love the idea of a Worldwide Championship but when you are telling people in the community about your upcoming FRC event and you call it World Champs you are implying the MOST countries attend the event. When in fact for FRC there aren't more than 10 or 11 I believe. Out of nearly 200 or so countries that is hardly a world competition.

The FIRST Championship is more than just FRC. Hang around in the FIRST Lego League side of things for a while and you'll quickly recognize the international flavor of the event.

And furthermore, dude, does it really matter?

YES. It matters.

Informally, it doesn't really matter what we call it, but this forum is large enough and visible enough that I prefer to keep a certain formality in mind. We dilute the message unless we all use the same term for the same thing. We contribute to the imperfect understanding of FIRST by the general public when we keep using outdated names. We fail to present a coherent picture of what we are if we aren't vigilant about our self-image.

This year, and last year, the big gathering of FIRST folk in Atlanta was officially "The FIRST Championship". The word "National" hasn't been part of it since it was held in the Epcot parking lot in 2001, when all FRC teams were automatically able to attend and there were no qualification requirements.

Cory

29-04-2008, 16:53

qwertyuiop[]\

29-04-2008, 17:21

The Super Bowl winner is called the "world champion" and the NFL contains zero international teams.

First off in the world of sports(that is non robotics), the super bowl winner is called the world champion because all the teams in the world have chance to go it is just that all those teams happen to be in the US. Also I think that for all of us here in Northern Virginia, and DC area that it just might get a little confusing with there be 2 things called the Nationals. Personally i still slip into calling it Nationals, but usually in my team we refer to it as going to Atlanta, not champs or globals or WORC or whatever else people call it whether it is right or wrong.

Also if this is international how come all the Reigonals are in the US?(i know that next year this statement will be irrelevant because of the New Zeland Regional). I think that the only dignified ways of refering to it is by calling it Atlanta, Nationals, or the Championship.

dlavery

29-04-2008, 17:31

\;744092']Also if this is international how come all the Reigonals are in the US?(i know that next year this statement will be irrelevant because of the New Zeland Regional)

Uhm, not to go off on too much of a tangent, but they aren't. The Israel, Brazil, Toronto (Canada) and Waterloo (Canada) FRC regional competition events have been around for a while now.

-dave

Al Skierkiewicz

29-04-2008, 17:47

Uhm, not to go off on too much of a tangent, but they aren't. The Israel, Brazil, Toronto (Canada) and Waterloo (Canada) FRC regional competition events have been around for a while now.

-dave

Let us not forget New Zealand now. Sorry guys, but for me "Nationals" still rolls off the tongue a little easier than "Championships". You will hear me use both and "Champs" but don't flame me, I am old and you need to give me a little slack. Half of my FIRST experience was "Nationals" and half "Championships". Maybe next year I will leave the old title behind.

JaneYoung

29-04-2008, 18:05

Here's a perspective that I look from -
I've been involved with the university where I work for 25 years. Departmental names can change and change again and change again and then - return to their original name. Office names can change. We changed ours several years ago because the original name was causing confusion. Websites change/ update/stay current with the latest information (or should) - so they can promote the university - accurately and efficiently. One of the first changes that occurs when a staff person receives a title change, is a new order of business cards with the correct title. We work on an international level and we have a reputation that we value, market, and promote. As much as possible, everyone throughout the university and its branches, tries very hard to work together to promote the vision, the goals, and the mission of this educational institution. This includes its events.

Some traditional names can take a while to change, that is true, and depending on the impact or lack of - on the scope of the mission - depends on the amount of effort and expenditure put forth to push for the change.

Swan217

29-04-2008, 18:07

Let us not forget New Zealand now. Sorry guys, but for me "Nationals" still rolls off the tongue a little easier than "Championships". You will hear me use both and "Champs" but don't flame me, I am old and you need to give me a little slack. Half of my FIRST experience was "Nationals" and half "Championships". Maybe next year I will leave the old title behind.

First of all, the only thing I hate more than people calling the Championships Nationals is people yelling at people calling the Championships Nationals. Everyone knows why they do it. Yeah, I still do it when I'm typing quickly too or being lazy, and yeah when out in public you should be more careful to use the correct terminology.

You all know, there actually is an easy way to fix this terminology. It seems to me that "Regional" is starting to become an outdated term as well as Nationals did. As Regionals have grown, and now we have "Superregionals" now, as well as having competitions that are transnational, it's obvious that "Regional" doesn't adequately define some competitions anymore. So how about this:

GTR in Toronto, Brazil, Israel, and New Zealand should be heretofore known as "National" competitions (And maybe other humongous regionals such as Boston and Great Lakes). The Brazillian Robotics Nationals, the Israeli Robotics Nationals, The New Zealand Robotics Nationals.

Then since you're forced to use the term "Nationals" to describe a currently existing competition, people will stop using it to describe the Transnational Championship*. It's just a psychological trick.

*Idea #2: If you like "nationals" so much, start forcing yourself to call them "transnationals" or "internationals"

Protronie

29-04-2008, 18:17

Seems like every year we go through this... oh well once again...
As I am somewhat new to the FIRST program I have not know it as other than Championship or Champs for short.

One thing I do call it is... The best thing happening in Big A in April! :D
No matter what others call it. :rolleyes:

To quote Shakespeare; What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet; ;)

-p :cool:

Mike Schroeder

29-04-2008, 18:55

Calling it Nationals doesn't make you old skool or anything; it makes you look lazy and frankly somewhat ignorant.

I remember a time when FIRST held their season ending event at Disney World.

It was a happy time, it was a great time, I had fun, I competed, I felt accepted.

Nationals to me is a specific age in FIRST history. Think about Mickey Mouse, ESPN, Rule Books with less pages than the robot section of this years manual.

I still on occasion call it Nationals because i like to reminisce of those happier times, Not because I am ignorant or lazy (btw thats real polite ;) )

heck I don't even know what Old Skool is and apparently neither does my spell check.

*heads back to his rocking chair*

DarkFlame145

29-04-2008, 19:17

T3_1565

30-04-2008, 11:14

\;744092']First off in the world of sports(that is non robotics), the super bowl winner is called the world champion because all the teams in the world have chance to go it is just that all those teams happen to be in the US.

The National Football League is not open to all countries at all. Hence the name.

GTR in Toronto, Brazil, Israel, and New Zealand should be heretofore known as "National" competitions

What about us poor people at Waterloo?? :P:D (we are the only local Waterloo team)

Danny Diaz

30-04-2008, 16:21

Karthik

30-04-2008, 16:39

lol. Jane has yelled at us on 418 multiple times for calling it "Nationals." Personally I don't give a rat's patootie. It's an event put on by a private organization who has decided to call it whatever they want and can change its name whenever they want. They control who gets in and how they get in, in a fashion similar but not similar to other events (like sporting events) who use similar terminology. I see "Nationals" or the "Championships" for FRC as just another regional, only some people are "invited" (regional winners, CA winners) others are "grandfathered" (Hall of Fame plus first teams), and others get in nearly randomly (Ladder entries). It's not the same as FLL, where all teams have won the Champion's Award at their championship tournaments. I don't even know how FTC works in that respect.

It's up to FIRST to decide what they're going to call it, and I have no problem with that. But if I just decide to call it the "Dean Kamen Atlanta Super-Regional" then that's just how it's going to be.

Well now aren't you special!

To some it may not be an a big issue whether it's called Nationals or Championship, but let's try and consider why some people get so worked up about this. If one is to look at the definitions of "National" you'll find that most definitions refer to a single nation. This is what upsets many people. Since 1998, this culminating event of the FIRST Robotics Competition has involved multiple countries. Whether intended or not, by calling the competition "Nationals", you are inadvertantly disrespecting the efforts and accomplishments of all those teams from other countries who are attending the event.

I understand that old habits die hard, and I understand the mentality of "It's just a name", but please try and consider why people get upset about these sorts of things. I'm never going to be the person who bites someone's head off about accidentally calling it Nationals, but it's fairly irritating to see that someone clearly understands how he could be seen as disrespecting someone, but doesn't "give a rat's patootie". So, if I decide to call that behaviour asinine, "then that's just how it's going to be."

Joe Matt

30-04-2008, 16:49

It's up to FIRST to decide what they're going to call it, and I have no problem with that (not that it would make any difference if I did). But if I just decide to call it the "Dean Kamen Atlanta Super-Regional" then that's just how it's going to be.

-Danny

Fine then, BUT STANDARDIZE IT AT LEAST. Karthik brings up the country point, but also as it's said again and again and again and again, the way for us to appeal more to the media and others outside the organization is to have a unified message and set of terminology. Switching between Championship and Nationals undermines both names.

Danny Diaz

30-04-2008, 17:27

Well now aren't you special!

No, not really. I just have a problem with calling it the "Championship Tournament," for all reasons I've already enumerated. It's not REALLY a "Championship" because almost literally anybody can get in if they can pay for it. If they called it an "Invitational" then I would have less of a problem with it. But, again, whatever - it's not my competition. I just pay to play.

-Danny

smurfgirl

30-04-2008, 17:28

I usually call it either "The International Championship Event" or "The World Championship Event" when I'm telling non-FIRST people about it, because it is a better explanation. In oral speech, I use "the Championship" or "Atlanta". In shorthand, I use "CMP" or "ATL". I think we should start calling it "Worlds" for short, since that's what it is and it's easy to say.

Even though this is only my third season in FIRST, I'm used to name changes and I enforce the proper name in written text, published materials, and whenever I hear it. Our team has competed in the regional held in Hartford, CT since our rookie year in 2003, but if you look at our banners from the past three years, they all say different things- "2006 UTC New England Regional", "2007 UTC Connecticut Regional", "2008 Connecticut Regional". It took the team a while to adjust to the different names, and some people insist on calling it the "Hartford Regional" after the city it's held in.

T3_1565

30-04-2008, 17:41

No, not really. I just have a problem with calling it the "Championship Tournament," for all reasons I've already enumerated. It's not REALLY a "Championship" because almost literally anybody can get in if they can pay for it. If they called it an "Invitational" then I would have less of a problem with it. But, again, whatever - it's not my competition. I just pay to play.

-Danny

I would call it championships.. although some teams do get in "randomly" The winners of the events have won everything, therefore are champions. Its the biggest event to win, therefore should be treated as such

That and if the media were around, which would sound like a bigger deal "National Champion" or "World Champion"?? (this is in a media sense only!)

qwertyuiop[]\

30-04-2008, 18:23

*Idea #2: If you like "nationals" so much, start forcing yourself to call them "transnationals" or "internationals"

that makes alot of sense i think that im going to do that now. and are internationals always going to be in georgia?

KathieK

30-04-2008, 21:25

FIRST has designated names for the events held in spring for FLL, FTC and FRC: FIRST Robotics Competition Championship, FIRST Tech Challenge World Championship, FIRST LEGO League World Festival. That's what should be used, to provide consistency in our messages to the media, etc., and to be aligned with what FIRST markets the events as.

And the location of the Championship event (as FIRST calls the entire event) changes - in recent memory it has been held at DisneyWorld in Orlando, FL, at the Astrodome in Houston, TX, and most recently at the Georgia Dome/World Congress Center in Atlanta, GA.

GaryVoshol

01-05-2008, 09:26

lol. Jane has yelled at us on 418 multiple times for calling it "Nationals." Personally I don't give a rat's patootie.

To some it may not be an a big issue whether it's called Nationals or Championship, but let's try and consider why some people get so worked up about this.

FVC changed to FTC this year. Many people still called it "Vex" - in fact, CD still calls the sub-forum Vex. (Note to mods - need to start a FTC forum and move threads accordingly. A big task, methinks.)

Danny, will you have no problem next year if FTC is still called Vex? Or if the new FRC controller is mistakenly attributed to IFI? I can see those mistakes happening for several years to come, to the consternation of LEGO and NI. Why shouldn't this community be as sensitive toward our international teams and compatriots?

Does it matter a rat's patootie in the long run? No. But there's no need to intentionally disrespect the feelings of others.

JaneYoung

01-05-2008, 10:18

If my name is going to be connected with the term, yelling, I would like to take a moment to address it.

Taking a step back - FIRST started small and developed over time. A very short amount of time, if you think about it. Big Mike's post refers to a different time, a different era. That is when the competition was called, the Nationals. And then, FIRST grew and with growth, changed the name of the gathering of all of the teams that come together in the final event of the season. It is called the Championship event.

Change is very hard. We see it reflected in these fora often:
- discussions of name changes for teams
- event changes
- technological changes
- changes in sponsors, schools, mentors
- students graduating

That's just a few. Change. How we handle it, deal with it, respect it - is up to us individually and as a team/group/organization. It shows who we are and what we are made of.

--
So there you go,
that's pretty much how I 'yell'. :)
Jane

T3_1565

01-05-2008, 10:29

Nawaid Ladak

07-04-2010, 22:41

I feel like this point needs to be brought back up.

I'm starting to see more use of the term "Nationals". Which is incorrect. we have 23 International Team attending te CHAMPIONSHIP EVENT. along with various numbers of INTERNATIONAL teams competing in the FLL World Festival and FTC Championships.

So please people, just a reminder, If this event was a National competition, it would be called that, but because it isn't. It should be called it's appropriate name.

DarkFlame145

08-04-2010, 01:08

Cory

08-04-2010, 01:39

As a corollary, if FIRST wants to discourage the use of "Nationals" why do they refuse to call it the "World Championship"?

Baseball sees it fit to call the World Series winner the world champ, with only one international team in the league. Why shouldn't we?

Cooley744

08-04-2010, 02:33

This may upset a few people, but I don't really seem to mind what you call it. Maybe this is because I'm a pretty laid back person or maybe this is because I am not from another country so it doesn't offend me personally. Others on my team do care and since no one could ever "get it right" we've just started calling it the endearing term of "Atlanta". For me, I realize that no one means any harm by calling it Nationals, so if you slip up, or are stuck in your nostalgic ways, so be it. The name isn't as important as what goes on at the event. The fact that we do include international teams and treat each one with respect and equality is the important thing. Not what someone calls it.

Leav

08-04-2010, 03:59

As a member of a team from outside the US, I would appreciate people making the effort just so we feel people know we exist... :P

if someone knows of the Israeli, Brazilian, British, German, Turkish or "Bosnia and Herzegovina"ian teams I think he'd be hard pressed to fall back to using nationals, since it is simply not that anymore.

The "FRC Championship" is a much more inclusive term which doesn't marginalize us foreigners... :)

So yeah, i'd appreciate the effort, if only for the feeling that people know we exist.

-Leav

p.s.
The captain from "Spirit of the United Neretva" - Team 3368 (Bosnia and Herzegovina) won the Dean's List award at the Israeli regional!

O'Sancheski

08-04-2010, 06:46

I have been in FIRST since the 2005 season and was taught it was called Nationals for 2 years. To me it will always be Nationals, but I also call it "The World Torny" or just Champs. Incorrect or not I dont see why it's a huge deal. If you think about it Nationals can be twisted to mean more then one nation.

same here... i was always told that it was nationals... but now everyone on my team is telling me to call it Championships... i just say nationals out of habbit

Al Skierkiewicz

08-04-2010, 08:07

Dancin103

08-04-2010, 08:39

Anybody notice that this was a thread that was last posted in May of 2008? Things have changed a lot since then. If you hear me refer to the Champs as Nationals, please forgive an old man who has gone through more than half of his First existence going to "Nationals".

Agreed, although I'm not an old man and I just grew up with Nationals as the name, 15 years of FIRST. Although, I'm starting to come out of the Nationals way and into the way of calling it Championships. :)

Boydean

08-04-2010, 08:46

I don't mind it to much in casual conversation.

When it gets annoying is in written documents that are presented to the outside world. It can be, and will be confusing to someone if you try to explain FIRST and are talking 'nationals' but the brochure you just handed them says 'championships', and then later on FIRST's website it says 'FIRST Championship'. Now you have three separate events in their mind no matter how many times you tell them they are all the same.

Avoid this at all costs.

Andy Baker

08-04-2010, 08:50

Although, I'm starting to come out of the Nationals way and into the way of calling it Championships. :)

Not according to your signature, Cassie. :)

When I began participating in FIRST in 1998, official documentation and communications from FIRST called it the Championships. This same discussion took place at that time. It's been 12 years and many still call it the "Nationals".

I like Cory's idea. It should be called the "World Championships".

Andy

ICntIHaveRbtics

08-04-2010, 08:51

I just cover all the bases and call it the "International Championship". Sounds even more awesomer.

I used to say Nationals as well, but the first time I said "Nationals" to my co-worker at FIRST, she was quick to correct me. Said they "stopped calling it that ages ago".

Either way, I don't think people should get in a tizzy over it. No matter what it's called, its a competition and celebration of the hard work and commitment of students all over that are going to one day change the world - and as long as people know that, then they can call it "the big robotics competition" for all I care =)

Don Wright

08-04-2010, 08:56

I say "The Galaxy Championships", you know...just to be safe so we don't have to go through this again in a couple of years...

thefro526

08-04-2010, 09:00

As a corollary, if FIRST wants to discourage the use of "Nationals" why do they refuse to call it the "World Championship"?

Since I've been on the team we've always called it the Championship or the World Championship.

It makes us feel more important and special when we go. :D

JohnFogarty

08-04-2010, 09:05

Funny how it is I'm an offender of this within the FTC Threads, Though I understand your point It's sorta burned into my head that way, though recently I just call it the World Cup of Robotics.

WORLD CUP HELLO IT'S SOCCER!!!

JaneYoung

08-04-2010, 09:18

The "FRC Championship" is a much more inclusive term which doesn't marginalize us foreigners... :)

Precisely, Leav. The term is behind the times. It once was Nationals and then it grew.

Gosh, if Al is an old man, then I must be ancient. I may start crumbling to dust at any moment.

Jane

Kims Robot

08-04-2010, 09:20

I tried to find this thread a few weeks back when I started to get a bit annoyed with the number of people calling it Nationals. I was in FIRST when it was Nationals, and probably called it so for a few years after, but as International teams started joining us, I saw it as disrespectful (dont get me started on the speeches - "we need to make THIS country great..blahblahblah"). I know people don't mean disrespect, but think of the teams coming from outside the USA. We should be welcoming them and making them feel like they are just as much a part of all of this as we are (because they are!!!). We had a great time with our alliance partner the Brazilian team 383 at Boston (and were excited to hear they won CT!). And that is a reminder that this is an INTERNational competition.

Plus, its way cooler to say we won the INTERNATIONAL Judges award or INTERNATIONAL Rookie All Star Award... The Press and Media pick up on things that sound bigger than just a national competition. If you want more press, if you want more exposure for FIRST and if you want to respect the international teams, stop calling it Nationals, start welcoming everyone, and call it what it is... Championships :)

GaryVoshol

08-04-2010, 10:09

World Cup is a registered trademark.

Maybe FIRST could trade with FIFA - we could use World Cup, they could use Coopertition.

Al Skierkiewicz

08-04-2010, 10:26

Precisely, Leav. The term is behind the times. It once was Nationals and then it grew.

Gosh, if Al is an old man, then I must be ancient. I may start crumbling to dust at any moment.

Jane

I won't turn ancient until next year, I am only turning 59 next week!

xzvrw2

08-04-2010, 10:40

I still, and most likley will always call it nationals for a few simple reasons. One, my team was on a National Championship winning alliance. Two, it was still called Nationals when I was around and thats what I know it as. To me, every one knows what we are talking about when we say Nationals or Worlds, or World Championships, or whatnot. I don't think it is offensive to people to call it Nationals, thats what it was called back then, and thats what I will always call it.

JaneYoung

08-04-2010, 10:49

I won't turn ancient until next year, I am only turning 59 next week!

I always forget that you are the eldest - by a hair.

--
I think it is a poor assumption that everyone knows what we are talking about no matter what name we use.

Kim has an important point about the impact of using the term, Championship or World Championship. If we want to stay self-centered and use narrow thinking then yes, the name we use as teams and team members does not matter. If we want to think and act locally and globally, then it matters very much and our thinking must become more visionary and far reaching. If you make signage to promote the fact that you are participating in Atlanta, what are the signs going to say? If you have them professionally printed - in other words, incurring expense - what are the signs going to say? Are they going to be accurate or inaccurate - making the effort and expense either valuable or a waste of time and money?

Sometimes, I think - by reading posts in threads like this that we show our worst sides rather than our best. Threads are opportunities to show respect, humility, understanding, and wisdom. They can also provide opportunities to show arrogance, self-centeredness, and lazy thinking which we then try to justify.

Joe Matt

09-04-2010, 00:45

Not according to your signature, Cassie. :)

When I began participating in FIRST in 1998, official documentation and communications from FIRST called it the Championships. This same discussion took place at that time. It's been 12 years and many still call it the "Nationals".

I like Cory's idea. It should be called the "World Championships".

Andy

QFT

I don't care if you hate everything outside of the good ole U.S. of 'merica, or have been in FIRST since '92, FIRST is a brand. It looks to us to sell and promote this brand. By calling the same event by two names we are diluting the brand. Is it nationals or championship? Is nationals in the championship? Does each country have a nationals? We have the privilege to talk to sponsors, alumni, politicians, and the media. These people can give you money, power, and help. Do you want them to be confused between your jargon and FIRST's?

There's a difference between slipping up and relentlessly calling it Nationals because it's retro or lazy.

Stop it. Or heaven forbid I turn this thing right around and go back home.

David Brinza

09-04-2010, 01:17

FIRST Championship.

It's simple and fully inclusive (even for Dave's "other cars on Mars" if they get into the mix.) :D

Dancin103

09-04-2010, 09:14

Libby K

09-04-2010, 10:43

I remember, as a little kid, that when I went to Epcot, I went for Nationals. My parents still occaisonally slip up and call it Nationals. However, with the appearance of international teams, and welcoming everyone, I agree that it should be the "WORLD" Championship.

The official FIRST name for everything that happens next weekend is "The FIRST Championship" or "The Championship Event", which includes the FLL World Festival, The FTC World Championship, and the FRC Championship.

Why FRC has not been given a World title, I have no idea... but the point is, FIRST isn't just USFIRST anymore. It's time to welcome and recognize our friends from other countries.

Plus, doesn't it just sound cooler when you tell your friends you're going to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP?! Seriously. Big ol' cool factor right there.

:)

Greg Marra

09-04-2010, 10:47

I believe part of the problem stems from "nats" being much more natural to say than "champs".

BrendanB

09-04-2010, 10:57

For all the "older" folks around, saying nationals is something they have done for a while. I like FIRST World Championship because it is the championship with teams from around the world, and it is in every team's record bar in their signature! :)

Karibou

09-04-2010, 10:59

Somebody else already broke down how they use different terminology in different forms of speech, and upon thinking about this yesterday during hashtag determination on Twitter, I realized that I'm the same way.

If I'm talking to somebody in FIRST...
Verbal: I just call it "Atlanta." For the next several years, it's going to be "St. Louis." Since everyone (or almost everyone - I can't always assume...) in FIRST knows what happens in Atlanta, no more descriptive terminology is really needed. As has been pointed out, "the championship" is a bit awkward to say sometimes, especially if you're like me and tend to talk 500 miles an hour, and therefore stumble over words a lot.

Some-form-of-text-communication: Depending on how rushed/relaxed I'm typing, what the situation is, and who I'm talking to, I switch between "Atlanta," "ATL/atl," "CMP/cmp/champs," and "the championship." Again, not much more description is needed: almost everyone knows what goes down in Atlanta mid-April.

However, if I'm talking to somebody outside of FIRST...

Some-form-of-text-communication: It's "the championship" or "the international championship" or "the world championship (event)" + "in Atlanta." And then an elaboration about how large of an event it is, the FLL and FTC events, and usually "teams from AROUND THE WORLD come to compete" somewhere in there too.

Verbal: This is where I sometimes slip and say "national championship." I don't even know where my use of "national(s)" came from - nobody on my team uses the term, and I don't talk to the ancients enough to have picked up on the term that way. Nevertheless, I almost ALWAYS awkwardly correct myself. "...at the national championship event - err, international championship event; there are MANY teams from around the world that compete there along with teams from the US" is normally how it goes. I have huge amounts of respect for the international teams, and mean them absolutely no disrespect by accidentally slipping and saying "national" - I've tried putting myself in their shoes, and am always incredulous at how different and difficult it must be to compete against one nation's memory-foam wall of pride. I'm sure that nobody uses "nationals" as a term of disrespect, but it's like calling someone with a freshly-earned doctorate degree "Mr./Mrs. Smith" instead of "Dr. Smith." New names and new changes take some time to get used to, and that period of time is different for every individual.

JaneYoung

09-04-2010, 11:04

Karibou

09-04-2010, 11:16

How do you handle situations where parents call it, Nationals, when they are talking to people outside FIRST? How do you handle situations where veteran team members are talking to new team members and call it, Nationals?

Jane
I'm not in this situation, but I would handle it the same way that I do when my mom calls cross country, "track" - correct them. Constantly. I would interject "the Championship" right after they say "nationals." Whether or not it may be considered rude, IMO being interrupted makes a person more likely to remember their mistake (though it can work the other way around - Imma let you finish, Kanye...), and fix it to avoid being embarrassingly interrupted again. It also makes whoever they're talking to aware that the terminology has changed, and that they should be able to understand that both refer to the same event (regardless of the political incorrectness of "nationals").

Chris is me

09-04-2010, 11:37

How do you handle situations where parents call it, Nationals, when they are talking to people outside FIRST? How do you handle situations where veteran team members are talking to new team members and call it, Nationals?

Jane

One of the cool parts of a young team: If you never call it anything but the Championship, this problem never happens.

Start with the kids and then it should trickle down to everyone else, if not immediately, in a few years or so.

Swan217

09-04-2010, 11:39

Firstly, the only thing I hate more than people misnaming things is 3 year old threads being brought back from the dead to continue complaining about people misnaming things. I see the main issue as making sure people "outside of the loop" don't get confused, but many, including myself, find it easier in casualspeak to use the old term. Therefore I propose the following solution:

When talking around non-FIRSTers: Please strive to only use variants of Championship*
When talking around FIRST newbies: Please strive to only use variants of Championship*
When talking around Veterans: Who cares? Everyone knows what you're talking about, and if they don't, then you get to tell your inspirational stories about the ol' days
When IMing, Tweeting, or FBing: CMP actually rolls off the keyboard easer than Ntls*
On CD: See Veterans. Everyone on here either knows what you're talking about, or will pick up on it soon enough when they search for "Nationals" and come across this thread. :rolleyes:

*In any case, I think calling the CMPs by their venue is also acceptable - "Atlanta," "Georgia Dome," "Epcot," "Orlando," "Disney," and "Houston," all convey the message adequately. Next year in St.L this may change, but I'm sure someone will resuscitate this thread back from the dead if that happens.

{on soapbox} Yes Yes Yes, we get that calling it "Championships" is important for the FRC Meme, and please try to do so in mixed company. But if it's not cases [1] or [2] above, graciously bite your lip and leave us alone. For deep in the hearts of some of us, it's still Truck Town Terror, it's still Bionic Zebras, it's still Baxter Bomb Squad, we still play at Great Lakes, NASA/VCU, and Nationals, 71 is still "The Pepsi Team," 51 will be known as "Huskie Chiefs" behind their backs, 33 is still the team from Avondale, we still plug in our OIs and turn on our RCs, the thing with the blinky lights that fails every other match is still the "radio," I'm still "that kid from 217," and I still go past Pine Knob on the way to GMI in Flint! No, some of those things that I just mentioned haven't been correct for a decade or more, but for old-timers, it hearkens back to good memories, friends come & gone, and a simpler time - don't take that away from us. If its not actively harming the FIRST image to outsiders, or potentially derogatory, leave the old-timers alone. {/soapbox}

{Edit} And in mixed company, like Karibou says, correct them. If it's not around newbies, let it go

Andrew Schreiber

09-04-2010, 11:45

On a related note, when is usfirst.org going to be first.org? Just saying...

DarkFlame145

09-04-2010, 11:50

I'm not in this situation, but I would handle it the same way that I do when my mom calls cross country, "track" - correct them. Constantly. I would interject "the Championship" right after they say "nationals." Whether or not it may be considered rude, IMO being interrupted makes a person more likely to remember their mistake (though it can work the other way around - Imma let you finish, Kanye...), and fix it to avoid being embarrassingly interrupted again. It also makes whoever they're talking to aware that the terminology has changed, and that they should be able to understand that both refer to the same event (regardless of the political incorrectness of "nationals").

You gotta be careful when correcting someone though. It annoys the heck out of some people. Also FIRST has one phrase that trumps "Nationals vs The Champs", almost every team says it when being picked for the elims "We Garishly (Think i got the spelling right) accept". It's an undo-able statement, but no one has a cow over that. Just let us people that call it Nationals call it that. Everyone knows what we mean, if someone is going to get offended over it, In my own opinion that's petty.

Karibou

09-04-2010, 11:51

On a related note, when is usfirst.org going to be first.org? Just saying...

I know that I saw either a thread or a post in this thread about that. I think that the verdict was that it won't be, because a) http://first.org (http://first.org/) is kind of already in use, and b) it would involve going through and changing links...from everywhere. All of their documents would need to be re-done, and so would all of the documents of each team. Not to mention links from team websites, links to http://usfirst.org from other external websites, etc.

Alan Anderson

09-04-2010, 11:54

(regardless of the political incorrectness of "nationals")

It isn't politically incorrect. It's incorrect, period.

Unless you're talking about an event which occurred long ago, the name "nationals" is just plain wrong. It's as wrong as calling the winner of the Indianapolis 500 a jockey, or using the word "faxing" to refer to sending email. It's not merely that the label has changed; the actual thing is different.

Andrew Schreiber

09-04-2010, 12:01

I know that I saw either a thread or a post in this thread about that. I think that the verdict was that it won't be, because a) http://first.org (http://first.org/) is kind of already in use, and b) it would involve going through and changing links...from everywhere. All of their documents would need to be re-done, and so would all of the documents of each team. Not to mention links from team websites, links to http://usfirst.org from other external websites, etc.

But usfirst.org is no longer representative of FIRST and could be offensive to international teams. Im just thinking that if we are going to throw a fit about people calling Championship Nationals we need to make an effort across the board to delete all US-centric verbiage. While we are at it, why is the manual only released in English?

Im not saying that the Championship/Nationals debate is pointless or wrong. The event is called The Championship Event, call it as such. I just think we have much bigger problems to tackle than a handful of old-timers mixing up names. Do we really not have anything better to do than bicker about it?

Joe Matt

09-04-2010, 12:28

Do we really not have anything better to do than bicker about it?

You're post in this thread, so do you have anything better to do than bicker about it? I guess not.

There's variation, we can remove variation and make communication and life easier. If variation is not removed it can be passed down to newer people and processes.

Remove variation.

Swan217

09-04-2010, 12:46

It isn't politically incorrect. It's incorrect, period.

Unless you're talking about an event which occurred long ago, the name "nationals" is just plain wrong. It's as wrong as calling the winner of the Indianapolis 500 a jockey, or using the word "faxing" to refer to sending email. It's not merely that the label has changed; the actual thing is different.

The event is the same, the only thing that's changed is the venue. There were international teams when it was called Nationals in 1998, there are still international teams now that it's the Championship. The National Hockey League and the National Basketball Association are still National even though there are Canadian teams. Why are they still that way? Because a majority of teams that compete are still American. It IS a simple labeling issue; fax/email and horse/car racing are bad arguments.

There's variation, we can remove variation and make communication and life easier. If variation is not removed it can be passed down to newer people and processes.

Remove variation.

LOL, Joe Matt sounds like the Borg: "There's variation. It must be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

You can remove variation by getting rid of the international teams and going back to Nationals too. I'm not suggesting that - that's ridiculous. Variation is good for a system - it's good for innovation and inspiration. The problem with a homogeneous population is that it stagnates and becomes vulnerable. Look at bananas - farmers eliminated variation, and what used to be called bananas became extinct through disease. Now what is now called a banana is experiencing the same problem - they're a homogeneous population that's vulnerable to a new banana disease, and they too will soon become extinct.

Variation in FIRST is what makes the program so successful. In this specific case, a labeling issue, it can create confusion in the public, which is why it should be discouraged, but internally, there are undertones with the "National" label that communicate the history of the event and how its changed and, yes, improved through variation.

HashemReza

09-04-2010, 13:49

This still seems to be a sensitive issue for some. There are people who believe that they have the right to call it nationals if they so choose (which, they do), and that there truly isn't any need to change. The other group believes that by calling it nationals, you exclude those international teams and disrespect them in the same breath.

I would be interested to see what some international teams choose to call it.

((On a less important note would be my opinion as to what to call it. I have never heard it called anything but "the World Championship" or "Atlanta". as such, I call it Atlanta when I am speaking with my team or other FIRSTers, and The World Championship when I am speaking to sponsors, family, friends, etc. While I understand both sides of the argument, I believe it is always better to err on the side of respectfulness.))

ebarker

09-04-2010, 14:09

You would think that a bunch of smart people than can deal with literally hundreds of rules and guidelines could get something as simple as this correct!

formally known as "The Championship Event"

informally referred to (I heard Woodie say this) : "The Big Show"

JaneYoung

09-04-2010, 14:09

The other group believes that by calling it nationals, you exclude those international teams and disrespect them in the same breath.

This doesn't quite cover the different facets of the discussion.

Another facet is how the name of the event shows the span of the event and its potential global impact. World Championship shows a much broader span and a deeper field of competition - just by its very name.

Regarding the international teams - they are part of our FIRST community, and regarding this particular topic - our FRC community. As teams continue to grow and develop in other countries, this is only going to grow and strengthen in impact.

Alan Anderson

09-04-2010, 14:18

The event is the same, the only thing that's changed is the venue. There were international teams when it was called Nationals in 1998, there are still international teams now that it's the Championship.

The event has most definitely changed.

I wasn't around for the "National Championship" years, but I am pretty good at learning history. Back in "the day", there were no regionals outside the US. FIRST Lego League was not part of the event. There were no conference presentations. Until 2002, every team in FRC could participate without restriction.

Even ignoring size and location, the Nationals of the 20th Century and the FIRST Championships of the 21st are qualitatively different.

HashemReza

09-04-2010, 14:38

This doesn't quite cover the different facets of the discussion.

Another facet is how the name of the event shows the span of the event and its potential global impact. World Championship shows a much broader span and a deeper field of competition - just by its very name.

I apologize, I was merely trying to condense as much as I could in a small space. There have been many strong points made, please excuse my poor job at representing them.

You're very right, it does paint the picture of a much deeper, more impactful event. Largely why I call it as such. However, I do understand where mentors like Alan are coming from with their argument for calling it nationals still.

JaneYoung

09-04-2010, 14:54

I apologize, I was merely trying to condense as much as I could in a small space. There have been many strong points made, please excuse my poor job at representing them.

You didn't do a poor job of representing them at all. You were eloquent in presenting 2 views or sides. All of your posts that I have read in CD thus far, are eloquent, thoughtful, and respectful, Cameron.

I was adding a facet that I think is important when discussing the name of the event.

--
While, I'm here :) - my high school that I attended for the majority of my high school career has changed. It has changed location because of increasing development in the area and it has changed its name. I still feel tied to the school because of my connection to it. The same thing has happened to my college. It is now a university and called one. I address my high school and my college by their current and correct names. In doing so, I am current and I am also showing respect for the growth and the development of those communities and their educational opportunities.

Jane