Silicon Valley Regional 2008 [Archive] - Page 2

dlavery

17-03-2008, 19:16

I like this idea for a "Rules Committee" They'd have to be on hand for the head ref to ask for clarification, but having a group who's only responsibility is to interpret the rules would go a long way. In order to keep the committee fair, ref's wouldn't give team numbers, but only "If RedAbot did X" type questions. If something like this were in place, or if the refs had to go through more training and testing (I acknowledge that they do, but more might help a bit...), then we wouldn't have an issue.

You are assuming such a system does not already exist, and is not fully documented in the materials provided to all the Head Referees and senior officials at each event, and that it does not already document the precise procedures to be used for seeking clarifying information and elevating appeals of decisions by referees, Head Referees, field managers, FTAs, and other event personnel.

Unfortunately, as many of us have learned time and time again in our professional lives, having those procedures defined, documented and available is only one part of the process. The affected personnel - whether they be spacecraft design engineers, FIRST referees, airplane maintenance technicians, or almost any other profession - must also use the established, approved procedure once they are available.

-dave

P. Hughes

17-03-2008, 21:27

I think we made a lot of enemies today, even though we did nothing to anyone... :( I'd like to say sorry to alliance #2, and would hope that our teams continue to work together and help each other out.

I would just like to say that today, we had meetings regarding what occurred at the regional, and the comments said about team 100, 254, and 115 were all very positive. Congratulations on winning the regional, and even though there was confusion over the final points for the last games, all three teams deserved to win. It was an honor to have played against you.

And to team 8 and 2024, you guys are awesome. I hope that we're able to ally together sometime later on.

octothorpe

18-03-2008, 16:44

Not to subvert the discussion, but if anyone needs a break from debating the replay of the final match at SVR, Team 766 has just posted our 16 on-board robocam videos from the regional. In total they feature 38 out of the 48 teams at SVR, so there's a good chance that we've got at least one video of your robot in action as the other robots see it from the field. At this thread:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65992

Andy L

23-03-2008, 13:47

Does anyone have the video from SVR for SOAP?

Eugene Fang

23-03-2008, 16:05

Does anyone have the video from SVR for SOAP?

I don't know, but I heard (i forget where), that the videos would be up "in a few days" and that was a few days ago.

Also, the "sj" folder on SOAP just got put up today, so im assuming they should be up soon. Thank you so much to whoever is putting the videos up!

ajisjesus

23-03-2008, 16:10

I don't know, but I heard (i forget where), that the videos would be up "in a few days" and that was a few days ago.

Also, the "sj" folder on SOAP just got put up today, so im assuming they should be up soon. Thank you so much to whoever is putting the videos up!

WOOOT!!!!! OUR TEAM HAS BEEN WAITING!!!!!!

Eugene Fang

23-03-2008, 16:13

WOOOT!!!!! OUR TEAM HAS BEEN WAITING!!!!!!

i've been checking like 5 times a day.. lol.

ajisjesus

23-03-2008, 16:17

ive been checking atleast 3 times a day... i wish they could post the entire event unedited so that everyone could see and feel the energy at SVR :cool:

Eugene Fang

23-03-2008, 16:29

ive been checking atleast 3 times a day... i wish they could post the entire event unedited so that everyone could see and feel the energy at SVR :cool:

yea that would be very nice. imagine how big the file would be though...

if i'm not mistaken, SVR was broadcast on the NASA channel so i guess you could have recorded it. or recorded the webcast.

Eugene Fang

23-03-2008, 16:30

by the way, does anyone know why soap says "sj (291 MB)", when theres nothing in the folder?

ajisjesus

23-03-2008, 16:34

if i'm not mistaken, SVR was broadcast on the NASA channel so i guess you could have recorded it. or recorded the webcast.

i probably wouldve if i werent there on the field the whole time... but thats alright.... NEXT YEAR I SHALL DIGITALLY RECORD IT AND SAVE IT ON A TERABYTE DRIVE!!!!! BWAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! (ran out of air) BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

ok... im done... :D

Andy L

23-03-2008, 17:00

by the way, does anyone know why soap says "sj (291 MB)", when theres nothing in the folder?

Probably because the files are started but not finished

just to put in for the who checks it the most, I have it open on my iPhone all day so whenever I want to check something SOAP is right there taunting me with no videos of my team

bduddy

30-03-2008, 20:28

I believe the finals matches are up now, although I haven't been able to view them.

Also, a request which I also posted in the TBA forum: If anyone from SOAP reads this, I would appreciate it if they could post a video of the entire finals, including what happened during the breaks. I think this will be helpful to those who are looking at what happened (although like someone else said, you should post all the footage you have anyway!)

EDIT: The video labeled as Finals 1 is actually a semifinal match, and I couldn't view video of any of the SVR matches on SOAP-I don't know whether this is due to my computer or on their side.

Lavapicker

31-03-2008, 00:41

We just finished the Hawaii Regional, where the calls by the refs were Fantastic by the way. Unlike SVR where someone was in the complaint box after EVERY match from both sides, I don't recall seeing anyone there but a few times and almost everyone walked away feeling OK. We had to face the dreaded 254 Poofs again - this time in the semi-finals with the also dreaded team 233 -Pink!! I'm warning all you out there...don't them get together in Atlanta! We took them to three games and handed pink their only loss in Hawaii but succombed to better bots. It was a hard fought match that saw pink go on its back three times. At least this one didn't go a fourth match??? Team 254 and 233 went on to slaughter in the finals...setting a regional record of 148 points I believe in one match.
Did team 8 and team 192 ever hear anything about being invited to Nationals?? I hope this got cleared up!! BTW - the team social was a Hawaiian Luau on the beach - complete with Kalua pig and poi followed by fireworks over the ocean. Team Pink won the poi chugging contest - go figure?? Sign up EARLY next year for Hawaii!! We may not even be able to attend our own regional next year due to demand?? We hope to come back to SVR! Aloha,

=Martin=Taylor=

31-03-2008, 23:24

MVRT has videos of the finals up on their YouTube Page. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-36801736353567798&q=silicon+valley+robot+2008&total=64&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9) Check 'em out!

ay2b

31-03-2008, 23:51

EDIT: The video labeled as Finals 1 is actually a semifinal match

Take a look at who's playing. I believe the video labeled Finals 1 is actually Finals 1. During Finals 1, the announcer misspoke and called it Semi-Finals 1, at least once, maybe twice. I noticed it at the time while there, and then again while watching the video.

I will get the remainder of the SVR videos posted as soon as I can, but it will be a little while. I had a family emergency shortly after SVR, and am currently out of the country on a business trip. I'll be home in a week, and then I can resume posting the videos.

Racer26

01-04-2008, 08:57

I've watched the videos... F3-a at the very end, you can definitively tell its a red robot supporting the blue ball, and the match score shows no bonus. Theres your failure right there. Blue should have won, regional over. But alas, thats not how it went down.

bduddy

01-04-2008, 11:16

Take a look at who's playing. I believe the video labeled Finals 1 is actually Finals 1. During Finals 1, the announcer misspoke and called it Semi-Finals 1, at least once, maybe twice. I noticed it at the time while there, and then again while watching the video.
Oh-like I said, I wasn't getting video, only audio O_O

SmartAlek

03-04-2008, 18:26

AdamHeard

03-04-2008, 18:36

Meredith Novak

03-04-2008, 18:36

Just to let you all know, we heard back from FIRST this morning.

They are giving teams 8 and 192 (team 2024 already qualified) a chance to go to nationals this year.
We (team 8) are still deciding whether we should go, even if we can find the money.

Thanks for letting us know. I was looking for an update on the situation. That is a good decision and I hope both teams will be able to attend.

115inventorsam

03-04-2008, 18:37

Just to let you all know, we heard back from FIRST this morning.

They are giving teams 8 and 192 (team 2024 already qualified) a chance to go to nationals this year.
We (team 8) are still deciding whether we should go, even if we can find the money.

Seriously? That's so cool! If you and/or 192 decide to go, I would look forward to seeing you guys again in Atlanta!

Pavan Dave

03-04-2008, 18:57

I really hope this doesn't become standard policy for FIRST.....

I'm happy about this specific decision. Its not the teams' fault. But I agree that if this type of officiating continues that sooner or later there will be 5-6-7 divisions and we will end up inviting finalists if not semifinalists and quarter-finalists too.

.

Lavapicker

03-04-2008, 22:31

Thats the best news we've heard in a long time! Hooray for team 8 and 192 and for FIRST recognizing the injustice of that fourth match. For those saying its a bad policy, look at what happened first. They didn't add the score up correctly because they didn't know the rules! There was no judgement call in the middle of the match, it was a case where they made a touchdown worth 0 points instead of 6 and then instead of correcting the score they decided to replay the whole game....watch the video! Blue Alliance won the match and regional fair and square only to have a bad ref decision take it away.
I hope you guys can make it out there at this last minute...too bad it had to take this long for them to decide. We'll be looking for you guys in the pits!
ALOHA,
Team 2024

David Brinza

04-04-2008, 01:52

Just to let you all know, we heard back from FIRST this morning.

They are giving teams 8 and 192 (team 2024 already qualified) a chance to go to nationals this year.
We (team 8) are still deciding whether we should go, even if we can find the money.

In a way, FIRST is declaring the red & blue alliances "co-champions" of the SVR. As such, Team 8 and Team 192 have earned their ticket to Atlanta.

If your don't believe in such a thing as "co-champions", Google it...

Racer26

04-04-2008, 11:12

I really hope this doesn't become standard policy for FIRST.....

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. 8/192/2024 actually won the regional, but an incorrect ref call (not subjective, wrong by the rules) gave it to 100/115/254 in a rematch.

No slight to 100/115/254, but FIRST made the right call, allowing all 6 teams to go.

If you think they shouldn't have allowed 8/192/2024 to go, then I would argue that you're part of the problem, one of the people who's not willing to stand up against poor quality officiating of the events.

Lavapicker

04-04-2008, 20:03

So, is team 8 and 192 going to be able to make it to Nationals at this last moment? Please let us know....

waialua359

04-04-2008, 20:42

I say have teams 8, 192, and 2024 return the silver medals and finalists trophies and trade them in for gold medals and regional winner trophies, declaring 6 winners from the SVR regional as co champions. It would be the "right" thing to do, not putting blame on anyone, and celebrating the right step towards all teams being able to participate in Atlanta.

Its not like this unique situation happens all the time.

danshaffer

04-04-2008, 21:14

We had a team meeting yesterday to try to figure this all out, and decided to put it off until today to see if we could raise some money. Our sponsors have been very helpful, and we should be ready to announce a few new ones by Monday morning... in other words, I think we're going! (Haven't actually registered, but we got an extension until Monday at noon.)
I'll let 192 speak for themselves, but from what I've been hearing out of our cross-town rival/partners' shop it looks like they're going too!

Lavapicker

04-04-2008, 22:02

that's great news....we'll be looking for you guys, team 8 and 192, to say aloha to in Atlanta then! I can't imagine how this is all going to come out in the film they're making on our team??? You are all part of the story now.
Thanks for your support too Glenn! We quickly got over the thing and now that our two alliance partners are invited its all OK.
OK, OK I know I said I'm over it but remember when we called a timeout in the third match so two robots on the opposing alliance could get repaired? I think we would still be talking about it today if the three robots on the other side in the spirit of GP sat still to correct the mistake in that fourth match. I think we'd be talking about hall of fame for GP. I wonder what we would do if the shoe was on our feet. I know I'd feel bad but would know that it was because of no fault of my own. It was sad to put all six teams in this situation in the first place. I hope it is corrected so it never happens in another regional again.
Good luck to all the teams at Nationals! We had a blast facing the poofs again in the semi's in Honolulu. Another knockdown drag out fight that went to three, but this time we lost :). You guys have an amazing robot. Aloha

Cory

04-04-2008, 23:23

I think we would still be talking about it today if the three robots on the other side in the spirit of GP sat still to correct the mistake in that fourth match. I think we'd be talking about hall of fame for GP. I wonder what we would do if the shoe was on our feet.

I'm not sure what you're referring to--the red alliance had nothing to do with the decision to play a fourth match. we were informed of it at the same time blue was.

TechieSam

05-04-2008, 00:41

but this time we lost :).

lavapicker,

I've been reading your comments and I think you are starting to cross a line, enough to get me to post. I was a volunteer at the SVR and watched all the finals, and your comments are a bit out of line. Keep one thing in mind - your alliance did lose the regional. You can keep talking about the bad ref call at the end of match 3, and it was a bad call. But it was one of many bad calls or non calls, and if the refs had called the game by the rules, your alliance would have lost by a big margin in EVERY match. As others have said, there never should have even been a 3rd match. Even with the bad calls, there was a replay, and if your alliance was the better alliance, you could have won that match, but you didn't. The right alliance won the SVR, and most I spoke to felt the same way (which says something, because most of them were rooting for the underdog alliance, yours, but stilll felt the other alliance was the correct winner).
It seems you keep trying to imply the 100 alliance didn't "win" the event, which they did. Just in 4 matches instead of the 2 matches it should have been in if the rules had been enforced. I'm sorry to criticise, because I thought your alliance did great, but please stop making comments like "the blue alliance won". The ref calls were bad, it was bad for all 6 teams in the finals, and I'm glad all 6 get to go.

Guy Davidson

05-04-2008, 00:47

lYou can keep talking about the bad ref call at the end of match 3, and it was a bad call. But it was one of many bad calls or non calls, and if the refs had called the game by the rules, your alliance would have lost by a big margin in EVERY match. As others have said, there never should have even been a 3rd match. Even with the bad calls, there was a replay, and if your alliance was the better alliance, you could have won that match, but you didn't. The right alliance won the SVR, and most I spoke to felt the same way (which says something, because most of them were rooting for the underdog alliance, yours, but stilll felt the other alliance was the correct winner).
It seems you keep trying to imply the 100 alliance didn't "win" the event, which they did. Just in 4 matches instead of the 2 matches it should have been in if the rules had been enforced. I'm sorry to criticise, because I thought your alliance did great, but please stop making comments like "the blue alliance won". The ref calls were bad, it was bad for all 6 teams in the finals, and I'm glad all 6 get to go.

Sam,

Can we refrain from mixing fact and opinion? Especially in a thread like this, everyone will benefit. On one side, we have something that is clearly a wrong call. A ball was completely misscored, with no room for much misinterpretation of the rules. On the other hand, whichever rules you're referring to (and I'm not looking to open that discussion, but I imagine you're talking about, at least in part, G42) do leave a lot more room for interpretation, and I have seen different referees call them differently.

At the end of the day, I agree with you. The Red alliance won SVR. I'm not at all a fan of the circumstances in which it happened, but that's what happened. But please, let's separate fact and opinion.

Thank you.

TechieSam

05-04-2008, 01:11

Guy,

I agree with you, and nothing should be taken away from your alliance. You played the red alliance tougher and closer than I think anyone in the stadium thought you could. But if you want to talk fact, here is what most people I talked to felt was fact:
the blue alliance played the way you played in the finals because the refs were not enforcing the rules. To most who were there, including staff and other volunteers around the field - that was a FACT. No one blamed the blue alliance, because if they had given a penalty in the first match, I'm sure you would have adjusted your play in the following matches. It's giving your alliance credit to say you pushed the limits the refs let you push, and if the refs had been making the same calls in the finals they made the rest of the tournament, the "fact" is your alliance would have lost in 2 matches. Now you may have a different opinion, but I find many of the comments by lavapicker to be "opinion" and not fact. If the finals were replayed with the same 6 teams, with a consistant set of rules applied by the refs, the red alliance would win that match up everytime. Now that's opinion - but I think an opinion most unbiased observers at the event would agree with.

Guy, your alliance played great. I'm very glad FIRST is letting all 6 teams go to Atlanta, as they all suffered due to the lack of reffing in the finals. I think all can agree that the ref calls and non calls in the finals impacted all 6 teams a great deal. My "opinion" and others I talked to at the event was that both alliances were great, that your alliance performed better than anyone expected, and that in the end the right alliance won the event.

Daviddavid

05-04-2008, 01:38

I've got to agree with Sam. I think some of the things Lavapicker said are out of line and a little un GP, plus just not true. I was there also, and I saw the same thing Sam did. If the ref had enforced the rules, the red alliance would have won in a landslide. Match 3 shouldn't have even happen, it should have been over in 2 matches. Even with the reply, both alliances had an equal chance to win match 4, and the red alliance did. I'm glad all 6 teams get to go to Atlanta, I felt bad for the blue alliance with how things ended, but I also felt the right alliance won and the red alliance was the best at that event. Bad situation for all 6 teams, but in the end seems like a nice solution - the right alliance won but both alliances get to go to Atlanta for what they all were put through.

Lavapicker

07-04-2008, 18:44

I like how some use GP to hit others over the head when they disagree with something. I could agree with techie if the error was a subjective call such as the ones you bring up in prior matches. You really have no point of argument because that's the way they see it and call it! Its like arguing balls and strikes with an umpire, its a waste of time and part of the game. Do you not see the difference in a subjective call and not adding points correctly however. Sorry if that seems un-GP to you to pose the question. Yes, I agree that 100 and 254 had better bots and that it took a strategy to overcome them. If we lose big time to them in two I walk away with my head up knowing we got that far and went up against the best and did our best. It didn't happen that way though and it was 2-2 in the best of three. When you go up against bots like 100 and 254 I know we would lose more if it went to best of seven, nine , eleven but in a best of three, we we had a shot.
I think the way FIRST handled the whole thing in the end vindicates my position on the error regardless of how you feel about it. I wish it had been decided sooner so these teams could plan ahead more. Best wishes to all, aloha