**FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2 [Archive] - Page 2

Bomberofdoom

22-12-2007, 06:20

Wow!

7 hours later, I get to read +250 posts just to reach the last page!!! :yikes:

Anyway, I tried to figure the hint by myself, but I haven't produced any firm evidence of what or where the hint is pointing to. I thought that sharing my thoughts might bring out other leads that could help figuring out the clue.

I took everyone's advice that the first two numbers were longtitude and latitude. I saw that all 3 numbers were decimeled and had 6 numbers after the decimal, which probably means they are related.

So, we have long and we have lat. Both are "titude"s.

So if we have the "X" and "Y" part of the geographic coordinates, we can also add a 3rd dimension, the "Z". which faces upward and downwards from earth's center.

and that is called ALTITUDE.

So I thought, maybe there's something above that coordinates, at that 3rd number hight?

I searched for things, specificlly satellites, aprox 342 miles, km or other distance unit above that point in Boston or over any other part above Boston.

I haven't found anything useful, but I did find this interesting thing:

http://www.meade.com/gallery/09a.html
350 miles above Boston: Ron Dantowitz of Hayden Planetarium, Boston, Mass., used C-Sat satellite tracking software in conjunction with a Meade 12" LX200 Schmidt-Cassegrain optical system to obtain this remarkable video image of Space Shuttle Atlantis docked with Space Station Mir on November 16, 1995. At the time of the exposure the docked Atlantis-Mir were 350 miles above Boston and traveling at a speed of 17,100 miles per hour. The outline drawing at right points out specific features of the two spacecraft, including such details as the Shuttle's rudder and wing-silhouette. Although Mir's solar panels are only about one meter (39") wide, they are clearly resolved by the telescope's 12" optics, even at a distance of 350 miles. C-Sat software works through a personal computer to locate and track automatically over 3500 Earth satellites with any Meade LX200 model.

The problem was "on November 16, 1995", which is quite out of date (or maybe not?).

If it is where the hint wanted to lead us to, then we have some relation to the space station Mir, but again, I fear I'm just misleading people.

Please prove me wrong (as awkward as it might sound).

ChuckDickerson

22-12-2007, 06:21

Whether or not the first two numbers are in fact the lat/lon coordinates of Copley Square in Boston I don't know. I do very much doubt that the third number is an elevation, bearing, or range because who would ever carry any of those 3 to 6 decimal places. That is just insane in any unit of measure. Lat/Lon yes, elevation, bearing, or range no I don't think so.

I think there is some significance to all 3 numbers being carried to 6 decimal places and am wondering more and more if the first two numbers are in fact NOT lat/lon but just the first two numbers in some sort of math problem. Maybe a positive, negative, positive, negative, ... sequence?

I fear we are all getting tunnel vision on those coordinates and reading to much into Copley Square. If it is in fact a reference to Copley Square I think it may be as simple as the shape of the square from above is like the rectangular field and there with be something of 4 in the very center (like the rack last year). The "something of 4" will be controlled by or consist of something to do with the 4 commands of the IR receiver. Also, if it is Copley Square then I still like the thought of Trinity Church as a reference to alliances of three teams again this year and/or the three game pieces of different shapes.

Can anyone tell that it is 5:20 in the morning and I can't sleep? Thanks, Dave.

flightofone

22-12-2007, 07:52

I think you're on to something. The ISS ground track does pass across Boston fairly regularly. And the altitude varies due to LEO drag and then resupply ships pushing it back up. The last time the ISS was at 342 km was this past November. (http://www.heavens-above.com/issheight.asp?)

rees2001

22-12-2007, 07:57

Can someone out there in the Boston area that has a GPS device please find the exact location of those coordinates? I would love to put some of this speculation to rest. Along with a number of us who got very little sleep last night. (Not because of the game hint but because of my teething 6 month old)

ChuckDickerson

22-12-2007, 08:29

342.242026 could represent time thus giving us a time and place assuming the first two numbers are lat/lon. If 342.242026 = Julian Day then it is December 8th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_8) (December 7th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_7) in a leap year like next year) at 5:48:31.0464 AM.

If the three numbers are added up we get 313.515859 which works out to November 9th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_9) (or 8th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_8) in a leap year) at 12:22:50.2176.

Anyone know a connection to any of these dates and times particularly with the assumed location? Maybe a historic event, a birthday, a special event?

Sunshine

22-12-2007, 08:37

I think it has to do more with standard C code. As mentioned before, the undefined floating-point variable gives you 6 decimal places.

So, to get more people involved with autonomous mode......

Is it possible that they want us to program the robot to get to a certain location on the playing field where there will be a IR signal? At that point, we will program the robot to do something when it receives this signal. When that is done it looks for the second signal and so forth. Wouldn't this make the autonomous mode easier for most teams?

Not sure about the rest of you, but when we went to the regional debriefing meeting at the end of the season, it was obvious that FIRST wanted to get more teams involved with autonomous mode.

So, with that in mind, how does this all tie together?

johnr

22-12-2007, 08:48

well if everything points to the globe bar, someone should go in with a ir powered up and see what happens. or just ask the bar tender if he knows anything:)

Leav

22-12-2007, 09:12

as long as were into XKCD, you should check this out:

http://xkcd.com/356/

the GDC's version is in the attachment :D

-Leav

Tottanka

22-12-2007, 09:16

globe cafe & bar website:
http://boston.citysearch.com/profile/4730129/

nutron5skills

22-12-2007, 09:42

the whole thing with the weights which are located at the 58th floor not the 60th:

quoted from wiki

The building's upper-floor occupants suffered from motion sickness when the building swayed in the wind. To stabilize the movement, a device called a tuned mass damper was installed on the 58th floor. As described by Robert Campbell, architecture critic for the Boston Globe:

Two 300-ton weights sit at opposite ends of the 58th floor of the Hancock. Each weight is a box of steel, filled with lead, 17 feet (5.2 m) square by 3 feet (0.9 m) high. Each weight rests on a steel plate. The plate is covered with lubricant so the weight is free to slide. But the weight is attached to the steel frame of the building by means of springs and shock absorbers. When the Hancock sways, the weight tends to remain still... allowing the floor to slide underneath it. Then, as the springs and shocks take hold, they begin to tug the building back. The effect is like that of a gyroscope, stabilizing the tower. The reason there are two weights, instead of one, is so they can tug in opposite directions when the building twists. The cost of the damper was $3 million.

The John Hancock Tower seen from the Prudential Tower close to I-90, seen on the right
The John Hancock Tower seen from the Prudential Tower close to I-90, seen on the right

The dampers are free to move a few feet relative to the floor. LeMessurier Consultants says the dampers are located in relatively small utility rooms at each end of the building, leaving most of the 58th floor usable.

According to Robert Campbell, it was also discovered that—despite the mass damper—the building could have fallen over under a certain kind of wind loading. Ironically, it could tip over on one of its narrow edges, not its big flat sides. Some 1,500 tons of diagonal steel bracing were added to prevent this, costing $5 million.

it says they act as a gyroscope, just putting it out there not sure if anyone has mentioned this

Ross340

22-12-2007, 09:43

could the last number indicate a time from when the hint was released? Then at said time, the shadow of the neighboring tall building points to something?

ergodezign

22-12-2007, 09:54

342.242026 could be anglular degrees measured relative to North

daltore

22-12-2007, 10:12

These 3 numbers could just all be outputs of a computer-based calculator program (most of them that I've worked with output to 6 digits unless otherwise specified). So that leaves us with these possibilities:

1) Rotation sequence (42 degrees clockwise, 71 counter-clockwise, 342 clockwise). At first, I thought this might be a combination lock, but that won't work for a standard one because it's divided into 40 numbers, so each division represents and even 9 degrees.
2) Rotation rate (such as that of a motor, where the negative would just be the opposite direction).
3) Voltage and/or current (in mA, of course) where the negative would be a negative voltage on the positive electrode and a positive voltage on the common (assuming we're talking about a multimeter or a motor with marked terminals).
4) Relative motion (42 units forward, 71 back...)

I agree, don't get stuck on lat and lon, as curious as it is.

ergodezign

22-12-2007, 10:13

Any one have ICAO Charts for airline navigation? Might be worth a look.

Bharat Nain

22-12-2007, 10:28

I have a feeling that the numbers that are given to us has nothing to do with the coordinate system. Think about it, when did GDC ever gave us a clue where it was very obvious.

I believe, the hints have a VERY obvious relation to the game that we are just not being able to relate to yet.

You're growing old already man :ahh::ahh::ahh::p.

Elgin Clock

22-12-2007, 10:30

If we take this as latitude, longitude, compass bearing, it points from Copley Square directly towards Manchester, NH.

Hahaha!

I actually like this theory, and it's relevant because it's not the first time a co-ordinate has lead to the placement of something. A fun fact about Dean's house is that it is a perfect distance & direction from FIRST HQ which helps in transmitting info via radio from FIRST to Westwind (Dean's House).
(I forget what that distance & direction specifically was. I'll try to contact the person who gave me this info, and get some more details. But all I'm trying to say, is that a lot of things are put somewhere for a purpose)

Ok, so I did a little graphing. Straight from the coordinates, at 342 degrees, you're looking through the two obelisks, straight at the Globe Cafe.

See attached.

Robots playing football!

Guys we got the coordinate idea.. it doesn't seem to be revealing anything at all..
Think different, no more coordinates, lets try something else. what else could those numbers represent?

But what if we look in the oposite direction (i.e. have someone stand in that location and look in that direction, in which case, they would be looking at the north 'gate' of the square. In which case, there are 2 obelisks. Could that represent anything?

I have an image of it:
The 'obelisks' (http://robotics.sanmarinmustang.org/images/files/frc_hint2a.jpg)

I know some of these things have been brought up before, but I have visuals..
Oooh!! Ahhhh!!! LOL :D

Anyways, If you stand @ said coordinate, & look at in the direction of the 342 degree heading (if that's what it is), we can see a sculpture called the tortoise & the hare,
http://z.about.com/d/gonewengland/1/0/T/I/copleysquare.jpg

Some other coincidences when u stand there and look that way, are that you are facing "Beacon St." & MIT among other things, but directly in your sights is the Copley Square Fountain. Which to me looks like (among other things a huge field goal type structure) Football. w00t!
& The big Beacon St. connection?
Beacon = IR beacon? Dun dun dun!! lol

http://i.pbase.com/o4/35/11435/1/65201009.dcAuVbyl.PIC63177.jpg

The single most important picture I found was this one shown below.
If you actually stood in that spot, and looked in that direction this is probably the angle you would see. Looks like I found the perfect picture for our clue as shown below. :D

http://bp1.blogger.com/_ppiLwd9hwA4/Rp0e2CTqFNI/AAAAAAAABXg/ORIQZoWfEBk/s1600/B--16.jpg

My final guess is that we are using the IR sensors to aim at a beacon & between a field goal type football structure.
The visual link to the Tortoise & The Hare I'm having trouble trying to link to that theory, but oh well.

Well the only thing i could see from higher up, was the Letters EI in that building there. I dont think that helps with anything.. but its never something to be ignored.

EI In FIRST World stands for Engineering Inspiration.

On last thought. As some of you know (and others may not), some parts of kickoff are actually not recorded live. What if some of the relevant information to this spot has actually been filmed on location in Copley Square already?

Anyone live in that area, and remember seeing a film crew in or around that location any time recently?

Laaba 80

22-12-2007, 10:56

The Posts are slowing down.
All the people who stayed up all night with this must have finally gone to bed.:)

Kyle O'Don

22-12-2007, 11:00

The Posts are slowing down.
All the people who stayed up all night with this must have finally gone to bed.

Lies about those who stayed up all night! We never sleep... well, only briefly. Mostly, we just ran out of ideas.

njamietech

22-12-2007, 11:01

Yes im sorry i haven't gotten any sleep lately because of CD. My spelling has been horrible today.... :D

ahh but sleep will come soon

if you want you can get the Google toolbar.

It has a spell checker designed for forums

All you have to do is hit the green checkmark and it marks incorrect words in red. you right click them and it gives you a list of corrections. you select the right word and it changes it. then when your done you hit the green checkmark again and your done.

BTW. I just used it and it corrected a capitalization error on the word Google

lukevanoort

22-12-2007, 11:11

Lies about those who stayed up all night! We never sleep... well, only briefly. Mostly, we just ran out of ideas.
At the rate the GDC has been going, we'll now get a email that says something like

Greetings Teams:

I'm going off the rails on a crazy train
I know that things are going wrong for me
You gotta listen to my words

Happy Holidays and GO TEAMS!
and everybody will get confused some more.
if you want you can get the google toolbar.

It has a spell checker designed for forums
Or just switch to Firefox. It has a built-in spellchecker that checks all data you enter into forms.

ergodezign

22-12-2007, 11:12

Hey team! Try adding or subtracting Macnetic declination of 15.2 degrees from the heading and see what you aim at. We dont know if the heading. Adding the 15.2 might aim pretty close to Manchester. Subtracting is only a few degrees off of true north.

TheIrishOne

22-12-2007, 11:15

Mostly, we just ran out of ideas.

Ran out of ideas??? Well Kristine Atiyeh and myself were just talking about the recent hint, and she came up with some thing brilliant. Here it is:

They first built the hancock building and they loved it so much that they told the architect, "hey, that was beautiful, build us another one that is taller" and so he says "ok". So he builds the tower and it's boring, BUT HE PUTS MIRRORS ON IT SO IT REFLECTS THE BEAUTIFUL BUILDING HE MADE. It's totally a clue. We have to make beautiful robots this year. Two of them, but with mirrors.

Thoughts on this?? It's very, very interestinggg.....

iwannabeaseal

22-12-2007, 11:41

its the towers at copley sqaure 342.2 is bearing of the directions southwest

Pat McCarthy

22-12-2007, 12:21

After reading all 19 pages, I have come to my conclusions.

42.349905
-71.076072
Refers to geographical coordinates on Earth, which when inputed into Google Earth, point directly to the statue of John Singleton Copley in Copley Square.
Those seem to be a rock solid, chosen, point. Whatever the clue is supposed to reference, I think, has something to do with John Singleton Copley.
Whoa, idea, a single ringer was called a Singleton last year!

342.242026
I have no clue what this might be, could be a compass bearing, could not, I don't care to speculate.

Starke

22-12-2007, 12:24

Is it just me or does the attached picture of Copley Square look like the standard playing field!? Maybe objects in the square are elements of the playing field? :ahh:

B-Fuzzled

22-12-2007, 12:38

On wikipedia it said that the square is served by the green line and orange line subways.

Maybe our bot has to follow a green or orange line during autonomous.

Big Kid

22-12-2007, 12:39

EricVicenti

22-12-2007, 12:48

Oh i know, maybe the 342 is the number of steps you have to walk in the square straight ahead to find some buried FIRST treasure! (It may be something, no sleep, awake for 30 hours) Okay, no i'm with the compass bearing on this one.

Unfortunately there is no 'straight ahead'.

I do like the playing field idea, what are all those circular things in the southwest side?

B-Fuzzled

22-12-2007, 12:48

On wikipedia it said that the square is served by the green line and orange line subways.

Maybe our bot has to follow a green or orange line during autonomous.

EDIT: I looked at the 3rd number as a compass bearing (w00t boy scouts FTW), and it seems that the streets run perpendicular and parallel to that bearing.

Big Kid

22-12-2007, 12:58

okay if the third number is a bearing, my question is from the exact point at which the first two numbers meet (what I'll call the origin) and if we take that bearing and follow it, does it intersect with anything that we could call a useful piece to the puzzle of what the game maybe?

Tetraman

22-12-2007, 12:59

tseres

22-12-2007, 12:59

Big Kid

22-12-2007, 13:04

I think the fact the clue is specific and there are specific things around the location is what the clue is.

The fact there are specific/different places around the area that all are different and represent differet things. This game probably is about being specific with specific objects in specific places.

like the tortise and the hare statues, I think they could possiblly make game piece out of those, you know the alliances have to push their piece (tortise or hare) into the other alliance's team's goal zone to get some points.

JoeXIII'007

22-12-2007, 13:24

i'll bet dave is just laughing at all of us, thinking "now christmas is ruined, they'll be thinking about the hint too much."

i think we're over-analyzing too much. i mean, the square makes sense. the fact that it may point to a light post with 4 lights (i think i read that above somewhere) may just simply mean that there is 4 areas on the field, or 4 IR signals on the field that the robot must pick up on to do some kind of task. i also like the post on rings or shapes that are off-balance that we have to move. ...

....i'm thinking too much...

It is either that, or we are hammering the wrong nail.

Personally I feel people are focusing on the easiest possible solution to the hint, and in years past, that has failed miserably... just miserably.

Then again, I could be wrong: the fact that the large building by the coordinated spot is highly reflective seems real juicy as far as game containing content. I figure there could be some IR reflectors to turn 1 IR beacon into many IR sources (A beacon in the center has # of mirrors surrounding it such that the reflectors are positioned directly above or next to some key game object).

Then there are the obelisks... suppose we have 2 beacons like in 2004, which send beams to the corners of the fields... nah... too complex. The obelisks seem like a scoring objective more than anything.

The tortoise and the hare: end of game challenge... something of that nature. 2004 (again) had the 50 point chin-up, which required more torque, lower gear ratios, and more time.

I'm just throwing more cents into the jar... I'll keep reading.

JesseK

22-12-2007, 13:34

The six-decimal place precision is useful when producing maps, as it allows the proper
relative placement of features that are next to each other on the ground without overlap.
http://www.census.gov/geo/mod/positional_accuracy.pdf

The numbers are most definitely coordinates. Google Earth quite clearly shows the statue if you use the first two numbers. I not been able to find evidence to support that six sig figs represents another standard. However, the third number is probably the azimuth which is a relative bearing. Believe it or not it is very possible to measure a relative bearing with that great an accuracy.

So the object (though it's fuzzy) that is at the coordinates of the first two numbers doesn't look like it points at the north pole. We need a fairly accurate picture and a volunteer:

1.) Go to the statue at the coordinates
2.) Using the middle of the two feet as a center point, measure the relative bearing using the third number. This is relative to the statue, NOT relative to you facing the same way that the statue does while standing in front of it. I recommend using a protractor and yard sticks.
3.) Pointing the same direction of the angle, take a picture. Try to keep the very center of the picture dead on with the angle.

In the end, this hint tells us nothing. To win the competition, you need a good strategy. To play to the strategy, you have to have a great robot. To have a great robot and a good strategy, you need every detail of the game, not a simple hint.

It's fun to conjecture though :)

Referring to Dave's sig... my laptop mouse is in one hand...but coffee is in the other...and I've never denied the coffee's existence to myself.

henryBsick

22-12-2007, 13:44

The Green and Orange from the subway lines might mean 4 alliances Red, Blue, Green, and Orange.

At the Copley T stop, the E line is the first to branch off of the main conglomerate of all 4 green lines (heading outbound). Thus; heading in, it is the last to rejoin the B C and D lines. 3:1... 3 vs 1 !?!?!
My dreams have come true; too bad it will never happen.

Also, keep in mind about any T color speculation, there is a silver line.
Red Green (4 trains) Blue Orange and Silver

11Mort11

22-12-2007, 14:06

i

i think we're over-analyzing too much. i mean, the square makes sense. the fact that it may point to a light post with 4 lights (i think i read that above somewhere) may just simply mean that there is 4 areas on the field, or 4 IR signals on the field that the robot must pick up on to do some kind of task. i also like the post on rings or shapes that are off-balance that we have to move. ...

....i'm thinking too much...

it could be like the vex game
a square field with for parts
maybe ir signals on the game pieces

whlspacedude

22-12-2007, 14:07

http://www.rootsweb.com/~scwhite/TrinityChurchFig1.jpg

thought this might help........
sorry about the size

11Mort11

22-12-2007, 14:26

could the last number indicate a time from when the hint was released? Then at said time, the shadow of the neighboring tall building points to something?
trinity church shadows revealing things
sounds like national treasure

charmed862

22-12-2007, 14:27

okay from the picture above my brain went into total field mode, because thats the first thing that came to mind when looking at it. ok... the sections in the middle could be somewhat like teeter totters, and we'd have to put boxes of varying weights onto the to balace them out. I teeter totter per alliance. and the the opening in the middle on the bottom could be where the human player would have to feed boxes to the robots (like triple play) Not to sure about the outer edges but this is what came to mind. any other thoughts?

Tottanka

22-12-2007, 14:33

:yikes:
look at number 1 and 35, just at the entrance...
Its governor and Arnold.
Hence, Arnold Shwartzneger!
Who was a robot in his best movie - Terminator 2!

Wer'e gonna have walking robots this year!!!!!! WOOHOO!

(JK by the way...)

Kyle O'Don

22-12-2007, 14:52

At Nationals two years ago, they wondered if the game was challenging enough.

Compared to years past, there is always an aspect of the game that is significantly more challenging and rewarding, most notable the high lighted basket goal two years ago. Thus, scoring with IR assistance, which is inherently complicated from a programing standpoint of Rookie teams, is not entirely necessary, but a must have competitive edge for seasoned teams.

Perhaps, we use the IR to identify game pieces that are fitted with IR receivers/transmitters. Then the pieces must be organized and sorted, giving the game a more realistic feel. Points could be scored through combing or separating different substrata of pieces by color, share, size, and IR signature/identification for extra points. Drawing from "Trinity" church, subway color lines at the square, and the satellite imagery of objects in the square (Circle, Triangle, square), there will most likely be multiple game objects of different types, some of which have IR capabilities.

Oh, the possibilities. Best of Luck!!!

Stephan S.

22-12-2007, 15:06

hy everybody, here are some aspects i think could be connected easy:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=42.349905,+-71.076072&ie=UTF8&ll=42.349957,-71.075975&spn=0.001947,0.006748&t=h&z=18&om=1&layer=c&cbll=42.349462,-71.076278

as shape part of the game field/ obstacles (statue that was refered to)

I think it has to do more with standard C code. As mentioned before, the undefined floating-point variable gives you 6 decimal places.

So, to get more people involved with autonomous mode......

Is it possible that they want us to program the robot to get to a certain location on the playing field where there will be a IR signal? At that point, we will program the robot to do something when it receives this signal. When that is done it looks for the second signal and so forth. Wouldn't this make the autonomous mode easier for most teams?

Not sure about the rest of you, but when we went to the regional debriefing meeting at the end of the season, it was obvious that FIRST wanted to get more teams involved with autonomous mode.

So, with that in mind, how does this all tie together?

can the third number be used for this? I have no idea (rookie - newbe)
but this would also refer to the part that was send to us. i think it is very likely that this could be an navigation device for making the autonomus period ''easier''.

another idea (without any educational background!) is that one of te numbers represents a wave lenght for ifraret or some other related stuff there that can be processed by the chip.

Richard Wallace

22-12-2007, 15:16

Last year FIRST re-used a gamepiece shape (toroid) that was previously seen ten years earlier, in 1997. Maybe that trend to re-use is continuing?

The 1998 game was called Ladder Logic, and it included a ladder-shaped field element. When I look at aerial views of Copely Square and the John Hancock Building, I see ladder-shapes.

steveg

22-12-2007, 15:30

A couple of things about Boston Geography:

Beacon Street is a few streets north of Copley Square. Copley is directly bordered by Boylston. I'm also fairly certain that there's no Rainbow St. anywhere near boston.

Also, another slice of trivia:

The last friday of every month Copley Square is the gathering point for Critical Mass (http://bostoncriticalmass.org/). Critical Mass is a lot of fun.

<sarcasm> Maybe we'll have to build robots that ride bicycles </sarcasm>

lucasmaker#2247

22-12-2007, 15:31

I think everyone is taking into account the very tips and forgetting are the logical pattern ...

A game piece, for the tips and logic will be a cube or a box, but seeing the head of FIRST, the piece will be less likely, or triangles or do something new and innovative.

If you look at the game last year and the tips of last year, we can conclude that little of the game itself was revealed. The tips show that the technology can be used.

Therefore, we can only one thing to do ...
Wait for the Kick Off and not fall into illusions.

Mike Martus

22-12-2007, 15:48

If the quality of the game matches the quality of the game hints and the time the GDC puts in then this will be a great game.

Hey should we have a prize for the first person to get the game right based upon the hints??

Dan Richardson

22-12-2007, 15:50

I think these coordinates deffinately point to giant inflateable John Singleton Copley's as our primary game piece.

Tom Bottiglieri

22-12-2007, 15:53

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=42.349905+-71.076072&ie=UTF8&ll=42.35042,-71.077112&spn=0.00129,0.00442&z=19&om=1&layer=c&cbll=42.349773,-71.077232&cbp=2,441.00092052876187,,0,-9.95531236977972
Street View

angelSAY

22-12-2007, 16:02

When the three numbers are added together you get 313.515859. If rounded it looks like 314. Also if the 1585 part is rounded this gives you 159. Well this looks an awful lot like pi, 3.14159... Circles or arcs anyone? THe only difference between 313.515859 and pi is that 313.515859 is a hundred times bigger. Maybe 100 balls?

maltz1881

22-12-2007, 16:43

Brandon Holley

22-12-2007, 17:04

I'd just like to say something pertaing to the trinity church reference everyone is talking about and national treasure the movie.

The trinity church they visit, and where they eventually find the treasure is the trinity church in NEW YORK CITY not in BOSTON (where I live 90% of the year).

Just something to keep in mind.

Mihai

22-12-2007, 17:10

new game piece:

http://www.perpetualkid.com/productimages/lg/JACK-1200.jpg

I know that's irrelevant to the hint, but c'mon...that would be awesome!

backwindow

22-12-2007, 17:11

Brandon Holley

22-12-2007, 17:15

My summation based on reading 21 pages of information:

I feel that the first 2 numbers are most definitely GPS coordinates.

I also feel that the 3rd number is bearing.

Thinking back on old game hints, to be quite honest, you cannot get much out of them. Maybe the games name, shape of the game piece, and maybe some other piece of information.

I don't think this trend will stop ANYTIME soon, so, based on the 3 numbers I think you just have to take that as it comes. It points through 2 pillars at the globe cafe/hancock tower(which has counterweights). I expect to see something involving this stuff in 2008s game.

Other than that, I do not think you can pull much more information from this. Happy hunting everyone...

maclaren

22-12-2007, 17:17

So I looked up John Copley on wikipedia and found that he was the painter that painted the famous painting of Paul Revere. Which made me thing of the beacons from the top of the church the "one if by land two if by sea".

I also like the trunkin reference with the visible and invisible lights which would use the CMUCam and the IR Board.

The third number referring to direction which looks to be pointing directly through the two obelesks to the Globe Bar and Grill is a great tid bit.

Akash Rastogi

22-12-2007, 17:22

reading all the pages, everyone has it wrong, the coords point to the statue nothing else, just the statue, if you google Copley Square Statue, you will find the name the of the statue. You will find out that it is a statue of John Singleton Copley, a late 1700's american painter, but thats not very important, his name is however, look in his name (software guys!!) what do you see? well i see Singleton, a design pattern-"This is useful when exactly one object is needed to coordinate actions across the system." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singleton_pattern now, I have yet to figure out how to tie in the third number into anything, maybe someone can figure something out with this pattern.

This pattern or something similar was brought up in a previous post. Also, people who were talking about other things besides the statue were not referring to the first 2 numbers of the coordinates, the third number which is the compass bearing angle determines where it is pointing. We already know the coordinates are for the statue, the other locations such as Trinity Church and the Globe Cafe have just been things spotted around this area. There really is no point in only looking at the statue itself because the GDC would never make a clue that simple.

ZachKahn

22-12-2007, 17:23

Joe G.

22-12-2007, 17:29

lackadaisy :)

22-12-2007, 18:08

You will find out that it is a statue of John Singleton Copley, a late 1700's american painter, but thats not very important, his name is however, look in his name (software guys!!) what do you see? well i see Singleton

wait, isn't singleton what they called it when you got just one tube last year?

Leav

22-12-2007, 18:30

Well I just had to go and watch the "National Treasure" movie and I got a few clues from that... i'll post them with a spoiler format.... (highlight to read)

(also apologizes to anyone using a text browser.... try skipping this next part without reading it to avoid spoiling the movie...)

-------------=============Spoiler Start==============---------------

In the new national treasure Nicholas Cage kidnaps (or PresiNaps) the US President because he wants to know if there is really a secret book containing all the secrets of the united states.

this book supposedly is passed down from president to president and only they know it's secret location.

also supposedly this book contains the answers to many conspiracy theories..
the "Truth" about area 51, the Kennedy assassination and much more....

the president reveals the location of the book, and tells Cage's charecter that they will find what they are looking for there.. and then he says: "oh and do me a favor and check out page 47" (or something like that)

Later in the movie the President asks Cage if he read page 47, and if he (cage)could help him (the president) with the matter, cage answers something along the lines of "yeah, I can.. it will alter the world".

I swear on the pasta monster that I was completly distracted from the movie... every time they said 47 I was like... "Chief Delphi!!!" :ahh: and that last quote I was thinking "He's talking about FIRST!!" :eek:

--------------------========= End Spoiler =======---------------

I didn't even watch the movie... I was just looking for clues that could help solve the FIRST hints...
lol.... :D

-Leav

Shorty

22-12-2007, 18:32

How's this?

Could they be infared numbers? The robots needing to navigate between something that is pure white, emits a little infared light, or emits a lot? I know that the infared numbers are not supposed to go below 300, but I've never seen what happens when you shoot extra light @ the sensors.....

Of course, I could always be crazy.

DonRotolo

22-12-2007, 18:51

I did the same thing, but I stopped when I found a fountain in that direction. It's right between the obelisks.
Fountain? Water Game???:p
Besides, the numbers point in the center of the square not the church.No, GOOGLE MAPS point to the center of the square. The actual coordinates are slightly to the east of the center of the square.Can someone out there in the Boston area that has a GPS device please find the exact location of those coordinates?
YES PLEASE! Nobvody so far has shown anyone what exactly lies at those coordinates! We need a fairly accurate picture and a volunteer:
1.) Go to the statue at the coordinates

I have seen nothing that confirms there is a statue at those coordinates. Again, Google is just defaulting to the center of the square.

The coordinates given are accurate to better than a foot (0.000001 degree is about 10 cm at 42 degrees latitude), so what someone needs to do is get a USGS 7.5 minute contour map of the Copley Square area and locate this exact point; alternatively, GO THERE with a GPS unit and, within 15 feet or so, find where this point is.

The height above Mean Sea Level at that point is approximately 14 feet; if we're talking about 28 feet (Thanks Nuttyman54) then it could be the top of something 14 feet tall. I don't think it's 342 feet (the church is not that tall) and 342 meters is ~1111 feet, there's nothing that tall at those coordinates.

The John Hancock tower is across the street, I really do not think that's it.

The best I figure from USGS.GOV is that it's one corner of Trinity church, the NW corner, but I can't tell for certain, and having never been there...

So, who lives near Boston and is free this weekend?

-...-

Don

: 'holding the answer in their hands' (or somesuch): Hey, we're holding the IR Board in our hands!

.

whlspacedude

22-12-2007, 18:58

The last friday of every month Copley Square is the gathering point for Critical Mass (http://bostoncriticalmass.org/). Critical Mass is a lot of fun.

Funny that was the name of our first robot (critical mass)

Daniel_LaFleur

22-12-2007, 19:02

I know that most people are considering these numbers as coordinates, but I was thinking that they might, instead, be the start of a series.

I don't have Excel on this machine so extracting the next numbers in the series is ... erm ... difficult :p .

jerry w

22-12-2007, 19:15

please
it has been 24 hours.
has no one in that area got a gps unit?
google is not accurate within about 50 feet.
i would like to know what is on the ground at the suspected coordinates.

please, will someone go make the measurement?

jerry w

Leav

22-12-2007, 19:16

from my experience with excel it won't find any meaning in this (can't blame it really... :) ) and will just copy the first cell into the fourth cell, the second to the fifth and so on....

if Google sets can't find anything... I mean... what can???? :ahh:

http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1=42.349905&q2=-71.076072&q3=342.242026&q4=&q5=&btn=Small+Set+%2815+items+or+fewer%29

-Leav

ZachKahn

22-12-2007, 20:08

This is from one of our team's mentors from the LAPD bomb squad.

Zach, you need to go to the attached address. It will take you to program code. I found this before and did not think much about. I then revisited it and scrolled to the bottom to find those addition numbers in the clue. I believe this is what you are looking for. This may be GAPS related and are using an on-line map. Let me know what you think.

Roy

http://off.net/diary/kmls/20070918.kml

- A few minutes later

Zach, here is another key piece. You need to get your Internet guys and girls involved. When you go to this site I think you will see how things are starting to come together.

Roy

http://code.google.com/apis/kml/documentation/

Any ideas?

andrew418

22-12-2007, 20:14

I don't think it's necessary to actually verify the coordinates with a GPS. FIRST would have assumed that everyone would access the coordinates with Google Earth or Maps, so they would have checked the location on the Google software itself.

Also, I'm not sure that the object at the coordinate location is the statue. From the pictures of the square I have looked at, the statue is further away from the church, in the direction of the Boston Public Library. The only thing near where the object should be is a large, antique lamp-post, with four globes. When you zoom in as far as Google Earth will let you, you can make out four roundish white objects around a middle dark area, which looks like the lamp post should from above.

So if the coordinates are pointing to the lamppost, the game might have to deal with round, globe shaped scoring objects, or posts like in the FTC this year.

About the third number. The two most plausible explanations that I have seen are that it is a bearing (possibly towards Manchester) and that it is the number of hours from when the email was sent until FIRST kickoff. I calculated that the bearing towards Manchester was approx 338 degrees, which is only slightly off. However, given the precision of the decimal, it would not make sense that FIRST would be so far off. Similarly, some posts have said that a bearing of 342 degrees from the lamppost leads to the Globe Bar and Grill. If that is so, such precision is unnecessary to simply point towards a large object several hundred yards away. The idea about the time to kickoff also seemed close, but I calculated that 342.242026 hours from when the email was sent (16:47:12 -0500 GMT) gave a time of Jan 4th, 11:01 and 43 seconds PM, about 10 hours before kickoff. I may be wrong, but I think that none of the ideas that have been presented for the third number are correct.

It is reasonably certain that the first two numbers are GPS coordinates (the chances of arbitrarily arriving at the coordinates of a lamppost in Boston at that level of precision are almost negligable). But we still need to come up with an explanation for the third number.

The only thing I can think of is that it is an angle above the horizon, or that it is a bearing towards something further away, which lies more directly on the path of 342.242026 degrees.

ANy other suggestions?

DonRotolo

22-12-2007, 20:27

I don't think it's necessary to actually verify the coordinates with a GPS. FIRST would have assumed that everyone would access the coordinates with Google Earth or Maps, so they would have checked the location on the Google software itself.
That assumes Google displays the exactly correct coordinates and does not 'fudge' the views in any way. Neither is true, so there goes that theory....:ahh:

What do we do when we assume?

T3_1565

22-12-2007, 20:29

has anyone, tried go further out than Manchester and see anything important out there??? (at 342.... degrees)

Madison

22-12-2007, 20:35

billbo911

22-12-2007, 20:43

While you are answering Madison's question, can you answer mine?
Why are you convinced the clue is actually pointing to more information. Maybe the clue is the answer.
We received GPS coordinates, correct?
Maybe it is just telling us we will be receiving GPS coordinates during the game.

pafwl

22-12-2007, 20:48

One of our mentors and his son, who is a member of our, team came up with this...
================================================== ===
Me and my dad did a little research and this is what we did and how we
came up with it.

1. I ran the 1st 2 numbers as latitude and longitude in Google Earth,
and it zoomed in directly on the statue of John Singleton Copley in
Copley Square in Boston.

2. We put the third number into Excel and changed the format into a
date. It gave us December 7, 1900, which on that date, according to
Wikipedia, said that "Max Planck, in his house at Grunewald, on the
outskirts of Berlin, discovers the law of black body emission." A black
body is "an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that
falls onto it." This goes right along with the first clue & absorbing
infrared material.

amethyst23s

22-12-2007, 20:51

Why are you convinced the clue is actually pointing to more information. Maybe the clue is the answer.

I definitely agree with this statement... the clue is the answer. I'm not so convinced as everyone else that they are GPS coordianates, but I bet these three numbers will be critical to the game somehow. They look a lot like measurements of some sort, althought the negative in the second number kinda throws that theory off a little.... but anway, my point is that while everyone seems to think that these clues are pointing to more clues about the game, I think the connection will be a little more direct.

Richard Wallace

22-12-2007, 20:53

Can someone point out again from where you've all decided these coordinates land on a lamp post?

Google Maps suggests there's something there, but upon viewing pictures of the area on Flickr and other aerial photography from local.live.com, I think what we're seeing are some unfortunate people that don't even realize the amount of time and effort people are spending trying to figure out what they have in common with a FIRST game. :)Madison makes an excellent point. We should not assume that any precision, short of the best possible from the given data, will be 'close enough' to correctly interpret this clue. In all likelihood this clue comes from the mind of a person who is concerned with the precise location (to the nearest centimeter or so) of an 8'L x 5'W x 5'H machine that is currently about 55 million miles from Earth -- and most of the time it is not that close! Angles measured to the millionth a degree are just dry routine for a person like that.

njamietech

22-12-2007, 20:53

Here is the values given by excel using the forecast function:

1 42.349905
2 -71.076072
3 342.242026
4 404.3974073
5 462.9245268
6 403.1879867
7 424.1080173
8 468.8900198
9 333.5089583
10 590.033783
11 161.2848456
12 878.2815337
13 -465.6670734
14 2699.107445
15 -7156.475964
16 31813.03259
17 -151008.0336
18 820992.1869
19 -4895732.107
20 31804485.87
21 -223132953.9
22 1680489708
23 -13517437308
24 1.15629E+11
25 -1.04791E+12
26 1.00287E+13
27 -1.01055E+14

someone asked for this but I cannot remember who.

pafwl

22-12-2007, 21:01

We looked up Singleton....

In software engineering, the singleton pattern is a design pattern that is used to restrict instantiation of a class to one object. This is useful when exactly one object is needed to coordinate actions across the system. Sometimes it is generalized to systems that operate more efficiently when only one or a few objects exist. It is also considered an anti-pattern since it is often used as a euphemism for global variable.

Will one robot be the guide for the others? Just because they gave us the receiver does not mean we will not get the transmitter in the kit.... :eek:

Dmentor

22-12-2007, 21:03

Just a random thought...

Latitude (42.349905) and Longitude (-71.076072) are angles in a spherical coordinate system. Bearing (342.242026) would be another angle.

Three angles... Tri-angle... Triangle!

I know this is nothing new in terms of concepts but it is a simple and more direct association.

CraigHickman

22-12-2007, 21:10

I figure since this got entirely missed by most of the folks here, who haven't read the whole thread, I'll post it again. I did a little graphing, and found that from the Google Coordinates (knowing the GDC, they would write this clue around what we all have, which is Google Maps/Earth) are directly on the statue of Copley. At the heading of the third number given, from the statue of copley, you are looking in a clear path through two obelisks, at the Globe Cafe. In this setup, we have the three shapes of FIRST: Triangles, Circles, and Squares.

My earlier post has an attached drawing with the satellite photo and the lines drawn to show the heading.

ervtech

22-12-2007, 21:14

red soxs and infared...... i dont know, when i think of Boston i think of the redsox. and that has red in it. I dont know, just putting it out there.

web_master_dpep

22-12-2007, 21:15

well i looked up the square, i came up with a photo of abunch of people against GE foods. possilbly the game could do somin with that,idk.

Quantumman

22-12-2007, 21:18

A couple of thoughts about these numbers being used in competition:
1) Civilian GPS is only accurate to ~15 feet and it doesn't doesn't work very well indoors
2) To measure a position that accurate is nearly impossible because even assuming those numbers are in meters, you would lose most of the precision to the play of the gears.
3) The IR board cannot be given numbers, you can only give it a signal from a remote(or other ir device) and have it associate that with a specific output(4 total)

As for the exact nature of the numbers I think that the full precision in necessary, every other year the full hint is important and every piece has meaning so I don't think this year will be different.

I do want to know if anyone figures out what is at those exact coords. I also think that there is enough in that square that relates to the IR board and can be related to elements of a game the it makes sense that they are coords.

The attachment show the location of the statue based on google street view images, the coord. point to a location that is off screen toward the mini map.

andrew418

22-12-2007, 21:33

Sorry it took so long to reply back. I think it is a lamppost because of these pictures.
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/~clee/images/traveling/boston/CISM_Summer_School/Touring/copley_sq_fountain.jpg
this shows the obelisks, and where the coordinates point behind them, there is not statue. A lamppost is visible, though.

Also, the wikipedia picture of the statue:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/CopleySculpture.JPG
shows tree cover and grass nearby, which is not near the coordinates on Google earth.

Even if we are looking into the clue too far, and the coordinates are the clue, I fon't think that's a necessarily bad thing. The clue's primary purpose is to get FIRST participants excited about the game. At least we're having fun, right? :)

By the way, attached is the view that I think makes it look like a lamppost:
(notice the four white round objects, which I think are globes for the lights)

I may be completely wrong, but that's why we're discussing it on the forum.:)

Kyle O'Don

22-12-2007, 21:54

Personally, using Google Earth with coordinates points toward two people, since a "center shaft" for the post is not present. However, this doesn't really matter because regardless of whether it is a stature, lamp post or pair of people "it" points to the globe cafe through the obelisks with the third coordinate.

charmed862

22-12-2007, 21:55

Okay, looking at the picture of the Statue of John Singleton Copley, he is looking in some direction, does anybody know whats in that direction? It's probably nothing but it never hurts to check.

DonRotolo

22-12-2007, 21:57

At least we're having fun, right?

By the way, attached is the view that I think makes it look like a lamppost:
(notice the four white round objects, which I think are globes for the lights)
Indeed: we may be driving ourselves crazy, and barking up the wrong tree (much to Dave's bemusement), but, well, it really is a fascinating process.

As for the photo of "four white round objects": That is an image of two people standing, side by side. Look at the shadows.
Kyle beat me to it

Don

(Doesn't NASA have image enhancement software we can use to figure out what that is? Doesn't Dave work for NASA? Hmmm....)

.

ervtech

22-12-2007, 22:01

ervtech

22-12-2007, 22:04

or it could be something that is just flying under everybodys radar because i dont think that the people from FIRST and NASA would just hand us the game on a silver platter.

andrew418

22-12-2007, 22:04

So if those are two people, that means that the third coordinate is definitely a bearing. I think that we should definitely consider the GLobe bar and grill as a possibility for where it is pointing. However, I also think that we should keep looking further along the 342 degree line, to see if there is anything along a more exact path. I think that it doesn't make sense to include so many decimal places for the bearing for such a close object. Unless FIRST included six decimal places to indicate something else.

njamietech

22-12-2007, 22:05

wait.... what if the first two numbers are the coordinates to copley square right. Then what if the third number is the distance from the center of the square that the object we are looking for is?? maybe

The only question is the units for distance.

Is it miles, feet, meters, inches, etc.?

I think your headed in a good direction though.

dani190

22-12-2007, 22:13

I definitely agree with this statement... the clue is the answer. I'm not so convinced as everyone else that they are GPS coordianates, but I bet these three numbers will be critical to the game somehow. They look a lot like measurements of some sort, althought the negative in the second number kinda throws that theory off a little.... but anway, my point is that while everyone seems to think that these clues are pointing to more clues about the game, I think the connection will be a little more direct.

Obviously FIRST thought it out so it could be anything. They made the number so that it could be GPS coordinates and they also made it so it can be anything you really want it to be.

Personally don't i think they are messing with your minds and so far they have succeeded. They are getting everyone so stressed out for nothing.

T3_1565

22-12-2007, 22:14

The only question is the units for distance.

Is it miles, feet, meters, inches, etc.?

I think your headed in a good direction though.

I agree this seems like a good idea!!!

I also think if it is the statue that we should look 342 degrees from where it is looking!

dani190

22-12-2007, 22:15

or it could be something that is just flying under everybodys radar because i dont think that the people from FIRST and NASA would just hand us the game on a silver platter.

Exactly do you really think NASA. Let me say that again NASA, would make it that easy? Think about it its NASA some of the worlds brightest people probably work there. Even if they don't i think that they are way more qualified than us. Meaning they can make this thing very very complicated. They have probably spent months doing this hint.

Also read up people have mentioned the fact that what people think the game is and what it ends up being isn't even part of the truth.

Too bad someone doesn't know someone on the inside :P

Merry Christmas, Dani

LSC Darkside451

22-12-2007, 22:20

Please excuse me because I’m quite new to this forum stuff, but I think everyone here on Chief Delphi is taking this whole hint thing too literally. Two years ago for the “Aim High” game we were given the hint about seeing Mt. Everest’s “Green Heights”, or something to that effect. In the end we realized the hint meant seeing the green light up in the air for targeting the goal. The hint certainly didn’t me to go to Mt. Everest to see what you could see.

I’m not concentrating so much on where the GPS coordinates are pointing, but rather that they are pointing to a specific point on a map. Combine this with the IR board now. It might just mean that these IR boards are going to be pointing to a very specific point on the playing field.

I could be going off on a tangent at this point, but it also seems that the coordinates are pointing at a light post in the square. I could personally read this two ways. Either (A) it means that the IR boards are going to be used in place of the CMU Cams to find this specific point like the green lights. Or (B) it will be used in tandem with the CMU Cams to help track targets on the field like the green lights.

Don’t take my word for it though. I could never be 100% sure about any of my solutions to a game hint. The only thing I know for sure though is that the game hints never give you enough of the picture to figure out the entire game. They only ever seem to give you one very important piece of the puzzle to solve and that’s it.

But that doesn’t stop me from trying…:D

neutrino15

22-12-2007, 22:24

I would check nearby geocaches (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?origin_lat=42.349905+&origin_long=-71.076072+&dist=10&submit3=Search).. Maybe they hid something in one? Anyway, I do think that the third number is key to understanding this hint. What geographical features are exactly 342 miles/feet/inches/cm/km/lightyears away from that square? Where does the 342 degree bearing intersect said circle?

Also, let's think outside the box. The first two numbers are convincing coordinates, but what else could they mean? Also note, if you flip the coordinates you get to a point in antarctica. The last could be a temperature in kelvin? (around 156 f) Unlikely..

Josh Fox

22-12-2007, 22:30

another possible/crazy insight on this clue...

someone mentioned earlier that the name singleton was part of teh statues name and that that was a term used for a single ringer scored...

maybe we're using ringers again? highly unlikely but who knows how trhe minds of the GDC work:D

dlavery

22-12-2007, 22:30

...comes from the mind of a person who is concerned with the precise location (to the nearest centimeter or so) of an 8'L x 5'W x 5'H machine that is currently about 55 million miles from Earth -- and most of the time it is not that close!

Actually, as of noon GMT today, it is about 55,301,925 miles. Not that anyone is counting.

-dave

JaneYoung

22-12-2007, 22:31

Exactly do you really think NASA. Let me say that again NASA, would make it that easy? Think about it its NASA some of the worlds brightest people probably work there. Even if they don't i think that they are way more qualified than us. Meaning they can make this thing very very complicated. They have probably spent months doing this hint.

Also read up people have mentioned the fact that what people think the game is and what it ends up being isn't even part of the truth.

Too bad someone doesn't know someone on the inside :P

Merry Christmas, Dani

Members of the GDC are members of FIRST. NASA is a sponsor for FIRST and helps in many areas. We have engineers and scientists that work for and with NASA. Dave Lavery is one of them. Some of the world's best and brightest minds in science, technology, and engineering are members of FIRST, mentors for teams, involved with the GDC. They also post in ChiefDelphi or read the fora. That is why this is such a special place. The hints are provided to the teams to give us something to do before Kick Off. If we choose to explore the possibilities, we can. Or we can spend our time doing other fun things. FIRST isn't making anyone do anything, they are offering hints for the upcoming game.

Many people here in the CD fora know 'someone' on the inside. They aren't out there somewhere, they are here among us and they won't give an inch regarding the clues. It's very cool.

Edit: Weird, I just posted after Dave. *sigh*

Kyle O'Don

22-12-2007, 22:33

Just speculatively, since the third number is most likely a bearing and has SIX decimal places of precision, I am leaning towards it pointing us to something far way. However, the bearing passes through the obelisks and Globe Cafe, which (although it doesn't use the six decimal points) is pretty satisfying.

As we pursue the bearing idea further, which will probably dry up this clue for us, remember to shoot your bearings twice. Once using magnetic north and the other using true north.

neutrino15

22-12-2007, 22:34

I just want to add,

To whoever thinks that we can use the IR sensor (without modifications, at least) to navigate, watch this video of it in use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUx2w3J_jDk
Note how the remote can be WAY off to the side. This means that it would be a lousy directional imaging system.

monkofevil

22-12-2007, 22:36

The hancock tower is relatively close, within several decimals to: 342.24 ft. away from the coords provided by First.

Maybe it will have something to do with a tower.

Anyhow, I suggest full military incursion on this point to determine the exact meaning of the First clue.

njamietech

22-12-2007, 22:38

I have attached two files.

The file titled 1 indicates distance from the point in miles and kilometers.

the further point is miles.

the file titled 2 has feet.

if anyone is willing they can draw scale circles on there. I don't have the software to do that.

Anyways,

See if you can decifer this.

Kyle O'Don

22-12-2007, 22:42

IR will most likely be used for communication because much finner spacial positioning is done with ultrasound. Also, assuming you could only use one IR board, only one side of your bot could do spacial analysis, which is not very helpful.

njamietech

22-12-2007, 22:56

Here are some 3D renderings of the square to help some of you out.

The two points are just a measure of the third value in feet from the coordinates

cabman1

22-12-2007, 23:00

It seems that if you treat 342 as both a bearing and a distance in feet, it goes through the obelisks and almost directly onto the back wall of the globe cafe.

jakflyer

22-12-2007, 23:07

ok, i have read all [most] of this thread and i saw the theories about the movie national treasure and the counterweight idea. I saw the movie tonight and thought i would put in my two cents: (this may or may not spoil the movie for you, its not that important though)

near the end there are four characters who have to stand on the corners of a giant wooden square that is balanced on a giant spike. They have to move around to keep the square balanced, and then they have to move together to try and raise up a corner so the guy could reach a suspended ladder.

Im not sure if i totally believe in the theory connecting the clue to national treasure, but if its true I would say that there would be something like that in the game, maybe four robots (using IR) that have to balance on a square in the center for the endgame.
Thats just what i think, its probably wrong though but just putting it out there:)

cicib99

22-12-2007, 23:12

so i saw all these pages and havent read all of the posts but i looked up John Copely(the statue of the coordinates) and it says he was a painter who pioneered the use of pastels = colors = rainbow ir wire

i dont know if its just me but im seeing this color thing as a trend

maybe im getting too into it but oh well im having fun :-D

Edit:the green and orange subway lines stop at copely square if that means anything
-also MIT was first founded in the corner of copely square
-probably just useless info but its keeping me busy:-D

Ben_pharteen

22-12-2007, 23:17

when looking at Copley square it seems to me that the statue of Copley just happens to be facing MIT and that just happens to be where woodie flowers works. and as someone else pointed out the direction the statue is facing is just about 342 degrees. just a little food for thought

Elgin Clock

22-12-2007, 23:25

1086VEX

22-12-2007, 23:39

Another Dave item, this one spotlighted by him:
Is that meaning a "throwback game", where the basic idea was used before, such as 2007/1997? Or just the IR and 2004 game?

i saw this along with other posts about a t shape in the square which reminded me of a past FRC game... in 1995 the game was ramp n' roll and it was played on a T shaped field.... maybe ther'll be a different shaped field this year...:D

ergodezign

23-12-2007, 00:21

I don't think I have seen this picture on this forum yet. Via Google Maps the distance from the coord origin to the obelisk pair is aprox 100 ft and the obelisk pair looks a lot like goal posts. Then you have Globe Bar right behind, kinda like the globe (sphere) just scored a point...

I know, that is an awful lot like the 2006 game, but I think that game had a lot of un-used potential that may tempt the FIRST designers to explore scoring points with a ball.

A 100 ft field goal by a robot would certainly be a challange - wouldn't it Dave? :-)

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/271660

keen101

23-12-2007, 00:23

Is there anything the three numbers have in common with each other?

also, is there anything in Copley square that is 11 ft. tall?

342.242026 millimeters = 1.12284129 feet

342.242026 centimeters = 11.2284129 feet

342.242026 centimeters = 3.42242026 meter

fnsnet

23-12-2007, 00:29

Let's try this again...

I like the idea of longitude and latitude. I have no real guess what the third number means, either.

I could see myself being one of the Bostonians that got in his car in the middle of the night to go see what was at 42.349905/-71.076072.

I enjoy the brainstorming that's going on here, you guys out think me most of the time. Keep it up.

Matt

Elgin Clock

23-12-2007, 00:37

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/271660
Good image.

Edit: OMG!!! Can you ask for link that messes with your head even more by showing the place where the numbers take you on a map, the Copley Square statue with the 2 obelisks, the Globe Cafe, AND is shown through an infrared filter????
http://www.bbeaucherstudios.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=27

Boylston Street and Copley Square through an infrared filter. :ahh::ahh::ahh:

Anyways, there are more places on the internet that will give us satellite pictures than just Google, so without further ado,

http://www.terraserver.com/view.asp?cx=329010&cy=4690700&proj=32619&mpp=0.25&pic=img&prov=gx19&stac=922&ovrl=-1&drwl=-1

By the way, According to The Terraserver link, At exactly 42° 20' 59.64" North & 71° 4' 33.60" West (which is the Degrees, Minutes, & Seconds equivalent of the first 2 digits FIRST threw at us, it lands us on the upper right hand corner of the design in the bricks in Copley Square. Not on a statue & not on a lamp post.

Go to that link, and hover over till you get the exact readings above in the bottom right of the page, and you'll see what I mean.
Edit: Never mind, I'll just attach a pic showing the connection.

towerofisengard

23-12-2007, 00:50

I've just spent the last who knows how many hours reading all 25 pages of posts. there is some really good stuff getting going here.

i agree with previous posts that we probably won't figure out exactly what the game is from these hints. but we may get close. and the real fun is the fact that they got all of us brainstorming. we are all thinking about the game now, and it is good preparation for the fast approaching build season.

i would be very interested to know (as several people have previously said) what is actually at those coordinates. we have determined that we can't get very accurate placements from programs like Google maps / Google earth. and the point terraserver marks is different than the one Google marks.

it would be very nice if someone in Boston with a gps could go out there and tell us what is in that spot, to as much accuracy as civilian gps units can

all said, i really enjoy all the theories, and have a feeling some of this stuff will be right. if not, it was a lot of fun!!!

RyanN

23-12-2007, 01:15

Maybe the number give have nothing to do with coordinates on Earth, but rather saying that we will be given coordinates on the field. The IR Receiver gets the code from the field element and tells the robot/driver where to place it in one of four spots. If the field element is placed in the wrong spot, it is minus points, if in the correct spot, the plus points.

KTorak

23-12-2007, 01:48

As stated before by someone, by reading this thread, I can tell you everything the game won't be because no one ever guesses even remotely close to what the game is or involved based on these hints.

Elgin Clock

23-12-2007, 02:05

As stated before by someone, by reading this thread, I can tell you everything the game won't be because no one ever guesses even remotely close to what the game is or involved based on these hints.

Ouch. What a sucker punch to everyone's ego who is guessing here. :(

I think statistically speaking, I would like to think at least one post early on may have something relevant as to what FIRST intends us to find out by giving us these seemingly cryptic clues with no perfect answer.

I recall in 2006 M. Krass guessing the TV show "Just Shoot Me" (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424354&postcount=14)about the line in the clue "a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show".
Woodie mentioned "Just Shoot Me" during kickoff specifically from that thread here on CD, as if that was in the right direction of a guess, and come to find out, we had to "shoot" the game piece that year.

WillItBlend

23-12-2007, 03:16

As stated before by someone, by reading this thread, I can tell you everything the game won't be because no one ever guesses even remotely close to what the game is or involved based on these hints.

yo if you refer to page 8 of the 2006 hint [edit: of the 07 game] thread, the hint was solved. and thats considering over 40 pages of guesses before the game was revealed. pwnt.

WillItBlend

23-12-2007, 03:26

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copley_Square theres a statue at the exact coordinates....

hmm in spirit of guessing of water games, thats a statue of John Singleton Copely. He drew a painting entitled Watson and the Shark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_and_the_Shark) depicting Brook Watson fighting a shark attack. roflcakes water, i love how we're always wrong year after year, but i still love to imagine an Ice Game (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51854&highlight=ice+game)

mackfix

23-12-2007, 04:18

Alright, I ran a few excel functions on these numbers. I hope this file helps someone or atleast helps fuel another train of thought.

Code Monkey

23-12-2007, 04:21

This can only mean one thing - upgraded processor to 16 bit (32 bit double accuracy) to get 9 significant figures. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/images/smilies/yikes.gif
:yikes:

mackfix

23-12-2007, 04:29

lol. it probably means nothing but its worth a look over (I hope). Maybe you would like to add to my list?

Elgin Clock

23-12-2007, 05:34

More stuff to play around with:

http://www.panoramamagazine.com/panoramamagazine/virtual%20tours/Boston%20Copley%20Square%20Water%20Fountain/

Cory

23-12-2007, 05:49

Exactly do you really think NASA. Let me say that again NASA, would make it that easy? Think about it its NASA some of the worlds brightest people probably work there. Even if they don't i think that they are way more qualified than us. Meaning they can make this thing very very complicated. They have probably spent months doing this hint.

Also read up people have mentioned the fact that what people think the game is and what it ends up being isn't even part of the truth.

Too bad someone doesn't know someone on the inside :P

Merry Christmas, Dani

I'm fairly certain NASA has got more important things to do with a few month's time than come up with game hints for FRC ;)

Your point about numbers being able to mean anything is accurate; however no thought is required to come up with numbers that can mean multiple things. If you give it enough thought, you can come up with a relationship between any numbers, objects, people, places, etc, whether real or imagined.

Personally, I get more amusement out of people's reactions to the "game hints" than the hints themselves. I prefer not to think about them because the possibilities are so broad that even if you nailed it right on the head, you'd have no clue until kickoff...so why agonize over it for 2 weeks?

Chief Samwize

23-12-2007, 08:10

After thinking about it for a night here is my guess. We will need to stack boxes on a counterscale. Some of the boxes will contain a weight of some type and the infra red will be hooked to that weight and we will need to find those few boxes to win. Probably wrong but that would be the FIRST time this year !!!!! ;)

Going back to the unofficial clue that was given to us earlier about the stock market, jello, K'nex blocks, and gerbils.

Stockmarket - Rises and falls
Jello - Comes in a box
Gerbils - Live in a cage shaped like a box
K'nex BLOCKS

Then adding the theroy of the counterballance from this clue, a game about stacking blocks on a counterballanced centerpiece that could tip would connect these two clues. The only part I now longer understand where it would come into play would be the IR sensor. Maybe it would be used to control something such as counterballance control that has to be controlled by the human player.

Of cource I could have these clues completely out of wack and my game may not even relate to the actual game released soon but I feel after reading 26 pages of posts that I should post something:D .

-Sam

KTorak

23-12-2007, 10:21

Ouch. What a sucker punch to everyone's ego who is guessing here. :(

I think statistically speaking, I would like to think at least one post early on may have something relevant as to what FIRST intends us to find out by giving us these seemingly cryptic clues with no perfect answer.

I recall in 2006 M. Krass guessing the TV show "Just Shoot Me" (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424354&postcount=14)about the line in the clue "a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show".
Woodie mentioned "Just Shoot Me" during kickoff specifically from that thread here on CD, as if that was in the right direction of a guess, and come to find out, we had to "shoot" the game piece that year.

Eh, it's just how it usually ended up for the past 4 seasons. Maybe this one will be different? I guess we'll all find out. This isn't to say that I don't guess either on my own, I agree with the GPS coordinate and bearing theory although I don't have a strong feeling or belief on its relevance yet.

JoeXIII'007

23-12-2007, 11:35

One of our mentors and his son, who is a member of our team came up with this...
================================================== ===
Me and my dad did a little research and this is what we did and how we
came up with it.

1. I ran the 1st 2 numbers as latitude and longitude in Google Earth,
and it zoomed in directly on the statue of John Singleton Copley in
Copley Square in Boston.

2. We put the third number into Excel and changed the format into a
date. It gave us December 7, 1900, which on that date, according to
Wikipedia, said that "Max Planck, in his house at Grunewald, on the
outskirts of Berlin, discovers the law of black body emission." A black
body is "an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that
falls onto it." This goes right along with the first clue & absorbing
infrared material.

#2 is FANTASTIC!!! for it also gives some meaning (in this case) to those two great big buildings south of the square that spell out EI. Question is what EXACT meaning can we draw from that???

That said, with a black body being an electromagnetic 'black hole' (practically, not technically, just relatively speaking), I might be curious about what other voids we would be filling in this game.

-Joe

PS: Curious question to the people with even closer ties to FIRST on here: do you guys or do you know of any FIRST admin that ever prints out these extremely long threads with ideas to what the year's game hint leads to and post them on some wall (or at least the 'good/funny/completely off-base' ideas) and then come back to them every once in a while just to have a good laugh??? :p I can only imagine...:rolleyes: I hope you guys are enjoying yourselves after 370 something posts... and I think we have yet to see the person stand at the said GPS location (I'm assuming that picture (proving the feat) will land itself a nice place on the wall as well). *shrugs* That all said, wOOt! for extreme FIRST dedication. :cool:

DonRotolo

23-12-2007, 11:53

Edit: Weird, I just posted after Dave. *sigh*I might opine that anything "after Dave" is less weird than before.
-also MIT was first founded in the corner of copely squareNow that is interesting. Relevant, dunno, but interesting that MIT has such a tie to Copley Square.
I'm fairly certain NASA has got more important things to do with a few month's time than come up with game hints for FRC
I agree, but certain people who work for NASA, on the other hand.... (you know who you are!)

You know, this is almost as much fun as the build season!

Don

Mr. Van

23-12-2007, 13:37

Ok, I'll admit that I've not read the entire 26 pages of posts, so please forgive me if this is in there somewhere.

One of the major buildings on Copley Square is the Hancock Tower. This is actually the new Hancock building - there is an "old Hancock Tower" nearby. This older building, as known to Bostonians all over the world, has a beacon or light on it which changes color between red and blue depending on the weather forcast or how the Red Sox are doing.

Now we all have these IR thingys...

So, here is my guess about part of the game: There wil be a large IR emitter in the center of the field that will signal robots that some part of the game is active (like scoring in a goal). There will be a visual signal (a red or blue light) for drivers, but relying on it will put you at a disadvantage.

Oh yeah - It most likely will be difficult for teams to build and test and will be a great pain for the field crew in the first set of regionals... But hopefully not.

-Mr. Van

Bsteckler

23-12-2007, 13:52

That said, with a black body being an electromagnetic 'black hole' (practically, not technically, just relatively speaking), I might be curious about what other voids we would be filling in this game.

-Joe

Could this be in some relation to the IR chip that we got? People mentioned something about blind driving using the IR camra to navigate.

Elgin Clock

23-12-2007, 14:05

Ok, I'll admit that I've not read the entire 26 pages of posts, so please forgive me if this is in there somewhere.

One of the major buildings on Copley Square is the Hancock Tower. This is actually the new Hancock building - there is an "old Hancock Tower" nearby. This older building, as known to Bostonians all over the world, has a beacon or light on it which changes color between red and blue depending on the weather forcast or how the Red Sox are doing.

http://www.vistadome.com/hancock_lites02.jpg

The old John Hancock Building in Boston is topped by a weather beacon with red and blue lights (http://www.vistadome.com/hancock_lites02.jpg), which use a code to present the local weather forecast, using a popular rhyme as a mnemonic:

Steady blue, clear view.
Flashing blue, clouds due.
Steady red, rain ahead.
Flashing red, snow instead.

During baseball season, flashing red means the Boston Red Sox game has been called off on account of weather.
Found here: http://www.dslreports.com/faq/boston/all

I saw that too, but idk. Sounds cool though.

PhilBot

23-12-2007, 15:13

Hmmm... Signal Lights... That got me thinking...

Another famous signal that happened in the vicinity of Boston (and the Clue location) was Paul Revere's famous "One if by land, and two if by sea;"

Both: Paul Revere's house, AND the Old North Church (where the signalling occured) are within 2 miles of the clue Lat/Long. None are a bearing or distance of 342... but maybe that's the direction that the signal was made to....

This idea is consistant with the IR Clue board.
It can distinguish between 4 different IR visual signals (codes)

What if the field transmits a different IR code to all the robots based on where something is coming from, or going to?

eg: 1 if by North, 2 if by East, 3 if by South or 4 if by West.

If the field is square, this could be the side that has double points, or a penalty side (like Last years VEX game)

Phil.

Bigflip2073

23-12-2007, 15:28

While on the street view on google i noticed an amphibious vehicle being used for tours. i think the companies name was boston duck tours and there logo was by land and sea. and boston is also known for paul reveres ride. the thought of the lights in on IR controller being similair to paul reveres signal seems plausible too.

Just a though

ahaha and another one of my paranoid ideas

Infared radiation gets trapped by ozone which causes global warming. this causes the ice caps to melt flooding the planet.

maybe we have to build an amphibious robot where we use the IR to activate something that "floods" the field.

and then Al gore comes and makes boring speeches

StephLee

23-12-2007, 15:33

Hmmm... Signal Lights... That got me thinking...

Another famous signal that happened in the vicinity of Boston (and the Clue location) was Paul Revere's famous "One if by land, and two if by sea;"

Why does that sound somewhat like...Truckin'?

"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see..."

Or, other times I can barely SEA.

Hmm...

:p

PhilBot

23-12-2007, 16:12

OK Steph, you can claim the Greatfull dead connection, but I'm calling the Paul Revere connection (Drat, already caught by maclaren)

I just mapped the two sites that I mentioned before about Paul Revere: His House and the Old North church where the signal was sent from.

Guess how far his house is from the church? 343 yards (within measurement error of 342.242)

Also, guess what the bearing is from his house to the church? Pretty dang close to 342 degrees.

Here is the Google Earth picture showing the distance in yellow and the bearing of 342.242 in magenta (or is that cyan.....)

http://www.gearsinc.org/images/oneifbyland.jpg

And just to be helpfull. Here is longfellow's account of the incident:

Written April 19, 1860; first published in 1863 as part of "Tales of a Wayside Inn"

Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light,--
One if by land, and two if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Middlesex village and farm,
For the country folk to be up and to arm."

Then he said "Good-night!" and with muffled oar
Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore,
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.

Meanwhile, his friend through alley and street
Wanders and watches, with eager ears,
Till in the silence around him he hears
The muster of men at the barrack door,
The sound of arms, and the tramp of feet,
And the measured tread of the grenadiers,
Marching down to their boats on the shore.

Then he climbed the tower of the Old North Church,
By the wooden stairs, with stealthy tread,
To the belfry chamber overhead,
And startled the pigeons from their perch
On the sombre rafters, that round him made
Masses and moving shapes of shade,--
By the trembling ladder, steep and tall,
To the highest window in the wall,
Where he paused to listen and look down
A moment on the roofs of the town
And the moonlight flowing over all.

Beneath, in the churchyard, lay the dead,
In their night encampment on the hill,
Wrapped in silence so deep and still
That he could hear, like a sentinel's tread,
The watchful night-wind, as it went
Creeping along from tent to tent,
And seeming to whisper, "All is well!"
A moment only he feels the spell
Of the place and the hour, and the secret dread
Of the lonely belfry and the dead;
For suddenly all his thoughts are bent
On a shadowy something far away,
Where the river widens to meet the bay,--
A line of black that bends and floats
On the rising tide like a bridge of boats.

Meanwhile, impatient to mount and ride,
Booted and spurred, with a heavy stride
On the opposite shore walked Paul Revere.
Now he patted his horse's side,
Now he gazed at the landscape far and near,
Then, impetuous, stamped the earth,
And turned and tightened his saddle girth;
But mostly he watched with eager search
The belfry tower of the Old North Church,
As it rose above the graves on the hill,
Lonely and spectral and sombre and still.
And lo! as he looks, on the belfry's height
A glimmer, and then a gleam of light!
He springs to the saddle, the bridle he turns,
But lingers and gazes, till full on his sight
A second lamp in the belfry burns.

A hurry of hoofs in a village street,
A shape in the moonlight, a bulk in the dark,
And beneath, from the pebbles, in passing, a spark
Struck out by a steed flying fearless and fleet;
That was all! And yet, through the gloom and the light,
The fate of a nation was riding that night;
And the spark struck out by that steed, in his flight,
Kindled the land into flame with its heat.
He has left the village and mounted the steep,
And beneath him, tranquil and broad and deep,
Is the Mystic, meeting the ocean tides;
And under the alders that skirt its edge,
Now soft on the sand, now loud on the ledge,
Is heard the tramp of his steed as he rides.

It was twelve by the village clock
When he crossed the bridge into Medford town.
He heard the crowing of the $@#$@#$@#$@#,
And the barking of the farmer's dog,
And felt the damp of the river fog,
That rises after the sun goes down.

It was one by the village clock,
When he galloped into Lexington.
He saw the gilded weathercock
Swim in the moonlight as he passed,
And the meeting-house windows, black and bare,
Gaze at him with a spectral glare,
As if they already stood aghast
At the bloody work they would look upon.

It was two by the village clock,
When he came to the bridge in Concord town.
He heard the bleating of the flock,
And the twitter of birds among the trees,
And felt the breath of the morning breeze
Blowing over the meadow brown.
And one was safe and asleep in his bed
Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
Who that day would be lying dead,
Pierced by a British musket ball.

You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,---
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;=
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,---
A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo for evermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

whitetiger0990

23-12-2007, 16:17

Hancock Tower
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=e80a78fed333dd57fdf530202abbbc9d#
Made by Google last March

Berkeley Building (old Hancock Tower)
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7c468603887c2e40545172f70efed474&prevstart=0
Made last August

Put them in Google Earth and float around. =)

StephLee

23-12-2007, 16:32

Richard McClellan

23-12-2007, 16:49

I'm really hoping for a Game Hint #3 to come out soon.....for the last three years there has only one hint, this year there's been two hints so far, but I'm thinking we might be getting a third before the end of the game hint season. Things just don't seem right in twos, they seem better in threes :)

So, if we get getting clues at the current rate, we should be expected the third hint either this coming Friday or Saturday!!

Can't wait any longer! 13 days til Kickoff!

Roger

23-12-2007, 18:12

So (not having gone thru the middle 20-something pages of suggestions) -- has anyone actually gone to Copley Square and looked for themselves to see if anything is there? For all we know the clue is there. (Or do I have to do it Wednesday morning on my way to work?)
_________________________
I know I exist, because the automatic toilet flushes when I stand up.

BanksKid

23-12-2007, 18:15

there is no way that these are values fo latitiude and longitude else it would be formatted as thus, / you dont have a third part so that third value kills off that idea. gentleman this game has nothing to do with boston (in reference to the lat..lon. theory) you have all wasted far to muck time on this matter wen need to look at these as values for the board....not just rest values but operating values ie when it is hooked up correclty.

once again this is not latt and lon
unless there is a mmagic third value that represents elevation which ther eis not

ergodezign

23-12-2007, 18:21

I hope they make them with LEDs so they have little eyes that light up...

from Dave hex bug post....hmmmm....LED's.....

Kyle O'Don

23-12-2007, 18:38

once again this is not latt and lon

Out if the near infinite number of lat/long coordinates, I find it hard to believe that two numbers with 9 significant figures just happens to land us in a plaza of a large city.

Besides, compared to last years hint this one is pretty strait forward.

BanksKid

23-12-2007, 19:01

yeah lets pretend that post never happened...things have just been uber stressfull for me these last two days, personal reasons, but i should have never lashed out at my fellow roboteers like that and for this i am truely sorry.

i hope you will accept this as a formal appology

Ethan Banks

JoeXIII'007

23-12-2007, 19:05

Besides, compared to last years hint this one is pretty strait forward.

*cough* XKCD #240, Dave's Signature about things not conforming to our expectations... I dunno, I could be just paranoid, but whenever we have reached this point, we usually arrive at kick-off dead wrong about the entire concept (darn that circle with the #5... it should have been 8!).

At least with the Paul Revere thing we are really thinking outside the box thinking outside the box (yes, times 2, if we have to we will go 3 boxes).

All that said, we could be right on the nose and Dave/Anybody else could be scheming to divert our attention.

-Joe

Edit: There are far too many connections between where the first two numbers point to on GPS and where the third number points to from there (Copley Square and Paul Revere's Residence respectively). Then again, there is what I have said above... and the circuitrunner could be right... shall we look into other possible meaning for these numbers... somehow, knowing this request has been made before to no result???

njamietech

23-12-2007, 19:09

All that said, we could be right on the nose and Dave/Anybody else could be scheming to divert our attention.

Resist the temptation!!!!!!!!!!!:yikes: :eek: :ahh: :eek: :yikes:

(as in resist losing focus)

JaneYoung

23-12-2007, 20:25

The game hints are hints. If they aren't solved or they are solved, there is still going to be a Kick off on January 5 that will reveal the game. Every year, there is an aha moment during the reveal, as students and mentors who have tried to figure out the clues, 'get it'. This year, there are lots of perspectives and suggestions but nothing is really wasted. There's more in these threads that just solving the clues. There is a common bond and there are opportunities to communicate and work together. 5 pages from now, we may be off on another tangent, thinking, puzzling, and communicating with each other. If you find yourself losing your temper or your humor, don't post until you've taken a break and regained your humor and perspective. These are hints. Nothing more, nothing less.

.02

P.S. My daughter just put in - Remember The Titans - I'm going to watch it. :)

StephLee

23-12-2007, 20:51

I had a fun and most likely useless idea strike me earlier:

Following the Paul Revere line of thinking, what if "One if by land, two if by sea" refers to the number of clues?

One if by land = previous years when we had a land game
Two if by sea = WATER GAME!!

(Yes, I'm kidding. I had a good laugh at myself.)

I really do think the fact that we've been pointed to Paul Revere and his famous saying in the year we get two clues instead of one points to something, but I'm not sure what it is. Any ideas?

1086VEX

23-12-2007, 20:59

^^ thats it!!!!!^^ hahaha...

maybe the saying is refering to some sort of remote siginal that'll be sent out to our bots during the game, which would link our new sensor into all of this...

Elgin Clock

23-12-2007, 21:52

If we're going to encompass the whole city of Boston into the clue, and throw in Paul Revere, I'm going to throw in the link to The Beastie Boys (because the sang a song named Paul Revere) and guess that they are going to be playing the Wrap Party @ The Championship Event!! YAY!!!! :rolleyes:

Or maybe our game piece is like Legends of The Hidden Temple style, and going to be a statue... like a Brass Monkey... That funky monkey!!
(And Monkey's like Bananas, just like Dave!! woooooooo!!!!!

Or wait, let's go even further off tangent, and say that Beastie Boys begins with a BB, so the game is going to begin with B__ B__ as well.

Welcome to the 2008 FIRST Robotics challenge, BRAIN BOGGLE!!!
Woooo Hoooo!!!

Oh wait, our brains are already boggled enough with the clues. :eek:
That can't be the name of the game too!!! :confused:

Or can it?? :ahh:
DUN DUN DUN!!!!

To be continued...

GBIT

23-12-2007, 22:11

Haha that was great. Anyway me being local to boston i would love for it to involve boston, but seeing FIRST is a international org. im doubting that they would focus on one city.

anyway i know that some one commented on this being possibly involving the field elements.

or....

possibly this was put out by FIRST just to torment us all......who knows!!

T3_1565

23-12-2007, 22:19

DonRotolo

23-12-2007, 22:44

If Elgin's going to invoke the Beastie Boys, then those of MY generation* will invoke Paul Revere and the Raiders.

Don

*No relation to The Who.

burkey_turkey

23-12-2007, 23:04

Sorry if this is redundant, i just finished page 6, but i think there is a significance in the number of decimal places. There are 8 sig figs in the first two, but 9 in the last number. all of them have 6 digits after the decimal, so that seems to be important. six... six total robots again? not much of a hint. I just think that the precision of the numbers is important somehow...

Bill Tompkins

24-12-2007, 00:09

WillItBlend

24-12-2007, 00:31

Along the lines of the Paul Revere thing, I find it interesting that the last coordinate 342.242026 when subtracted from 360 is ~17.76 (17.757974).

Right neighborhood for this date to be relevant.

B

didnt he ride in 1775? and considering the first four digits of your difference (17.757974)..yeah you get my point right? oh and if you ask me, that painting of paul revere by copely, i could say its a portrait of jack black rofl.

BornaE

24-12-2007, 00:32

Bill Tompkins

24-12-2007, 00:39

Actually April 18, 1775

The point is the IR decoder and the 'One if by Land, Two if by Sea' thing are connected.

B

Bill Moore

24-12-2007, 00:41

Following the Paul Revere line of thinking, what if "One if by land, two if by sea" refers to the number of clues?

One if by land = previous years when we had a land game
Two if by sea = WATER GAME!!

How about an end game autonomous that will have one of two different methods of scoring depending on how many transmitters are active? "One" and "Two" could indicate which method the robots need to use for scoring.

I so much want to watch the end game be autonomous! C'mon GDC!

Bill Tompkins

24-12-2007, 00:52

Me and some of our team members came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what the coordinates point to. they point to Copley square in Boston just to make it complex.

we believe that the game will have a coordinate system of some sort. it can not be GPS or any thing that uses GPS technology because they would need in excess of $100,000 worth of equipment for every field. it will be a coordinate system either with a gridded carpet or 2 to 3 lights with different colors for us to do triangulations.

I agree. The IR decoder and the coordinates are just to point us to the fact we will be doing some navigation. The actual coordinates mean little, maybe designed to make everyone nuts.

The IR decoder is set up for 1 in 4 decoding. This means will probably will have 4 targets/landmarks to deal with. The decoder also has a relatively wide beam window, I believe +/- 40 degrees (please correct me if I am wrong). 4 transmitters would cover all for sides of the arena or 360 degrees.

B

Qbranch

24-12-2007, 01:09

A few dead ends:

>When used as side lengths, these numbers do not form a legal triangle.
>When summed, these numbers produce 314.51859. First three digits of Pi yes, conclusive? probably not.
>The reciprocal of dividing these numbers is 9.00218, though I don't believe the number nine could lead many places
>No matter how they are arranged of figured into circle-based formulas, these numbers prove to be inconclusive.

For now, I believe the geographic trails of thought are the most likely.

-q

p.s. In an office somewhere, FIRST game designers laugh.

Chief Samwize

24-12-2007, 07:24

This clue kind of reminds me of this thing we did back in 7th grade where we had to guess holiday songs from a picture. One of the clues was an alphabet which skipped the letter L (noel was the song). Looking at the clue it struck me as something simmilar because the only number that is not used is 8. Im not sure if this is relevent or not but maybe the number 8 is significant.

8 sided playing pieces?

-Sam

GBIT

24-12-2007, 09:13

8 sided playing pieces?

-Sam

That............would be interesting.

meaubry

24-12-2007, 09:41

The whole game is never totally revealed in these "hints" - only obscure parts are.

The hard work has been accomplished - lat & longit, takes us to Copley Square in Boston, where atop the Hancock building is a beacon. Which has the capability of emitting 4 outputs - red solid, red flashing, blue solid, blue flashing.

These are the standard FIRST colors, and we now have included in the kit, an IR board with 4 selections on it. 4 choices and 4 beacon outputs, hmmm...

Perhaps, one part of the game will be that each human player will select from the 4 IR choices mentioned earlier, and that is what will establish your desired game parameters (scoring location, value, match length of time, starting or ending location, alliance partner choice, something that would influence the outcome, ect).

Human player interaction using the IR - its "in their hands".

PhilBot

24-12-2007, 09:45

How about an end game autonomous that will have one of two different methods of scoring depending on how many transmitters are active? "One" and "Two" could indicate which method the robots need to use for scoring.

I so much want to watch the end game be autonomous! C'mon GDC!

Or how about.... An autonomous end-game where the IR beacons tell the robots which quad of the field is the bonus zone... It would be wild to see all the robots racing autonomously to the same zone :) On second thoughts, maybe the two alliances would have different zones ....

The trouble with IR detectors is if you have more than two different codes going off, they may interfere with each other, but a foolproof way to use them is to have multiple emitters all sending the same synched signal. It's not much of a technical stretch for the field to be surrounded by a dozen or more high power emitters (just a few $'s). Then at the beginning of end-game, the robots could be put in auto-mode and then broadcast a master signal to all the robots symultaniously.

Each zone could have it's own homing code, but the chance of interference would be high.

Either way it would be an exciting end to a match.

Libby K

24-12-2007, 13:52

PS: Curious question to the people with even closer ties to FIRST on here: do you guys or do you know of any FIRST admin that ever prints out these extremely long threads with ideas to what the year's game hint leads to and post them on some wall (or at least the 'good/funny/completely off-base' ideas) and then come back to them every once in a while just to have a good laugh??? :p I can only imagine...:rolleyes: I hope you guys are enjoying yourselves after 370 something posts...

I'm sure the GDC gets a huge kick out of reading these things. How ridiculous we must sound...

robostangs548

24-12-2007, 14:44

x axis y axis z axis?

Elgin Clock

24-12-2007, 15:10

I'm sure the GDC gets a huge kick out of reading these things. How ridiculous we must sound...

If I was on the GDC, I would have an internal bet with all my other GDC members as to how many posts were going to be made about the clue(s) on CD.

The winner or winners would have to reveal what the clue meant in front of everyone at Kickoff & see all the looks on people's faces as it finally "clicks".

I think that's a nice prize for guessing a number don't you?

I mean.. we get to guess about things like clues, and get an entire year of fun out of it. Guessing a number of posts should be worth at least 15 minutes of fame on a NASA webcast & in front of a physical audience of >500 people or so at kickoff. Don't you? :D

basicxman

24-12-2007, 16:26

could someone please summarize the previous posts, anyone who has read the entire thread?

sorry but i dont really feel like reading 400+ posts, even on CD

JoeXIII'007

24-12-2007, 17:27

could someone please summarize the previous posts, anyone who has read the entire thread?

sorry but i dont really feel like reading 400+ posts, even on CD

I don't blame you...

That all said, here is an interactive summary:

1. goto maps.google.com
2. type in the first two numbers of the game hint on post #1
3. press enter and notice that you have been directed to Copley Square somewhere in New England. The overhead view displays a large reflective building just southeast of the virtual green map pin and two large buildings that spell out EI just south of the mark.
4. Now goto street view and have a look at that obelisks in Copley Square, along with other great sights.
5. Next, have a look at post #383 of this thread, pretty darn conclusive material... maybe. Just below that, #387, makes a connection between the distance between Copley square and Paul Revere. More postings discover the connection between Copley and Paul Revere. In other words, there's SUBSTANTIAL evidence that there is something interesting about Copley Square and Paul Revere's residence.
6. There was also post #324 which took the thrid number of the clue, converted it to a date on excel and on that date in some year, Max Planck discovered the law of black body emission. Read up further on that post and realize there's a real connection between that and clue #1: the IR thingy.
7. Also, as a geek, I have to remind everyone of the philosophical connections between the clue and XKCD comic #240. (http://xkcd.com/240/) Plus the connection between the comic and Dave's signature (the answer to the year's most important question...).

And I think that covers it for now. I didn't want to put a 400 page summary here, thus the reason why I stop here. ;) Conclude what you wish and have fun with it.

-Joe

PS: The cake is not a lie... we will get it January 5th at the FIRST Robotics Enrichment Competition Kick-off. (Sorry, I am just so happy after playing Portal in one sitting... had to make some form of reference there.) :p

PS2: Feel free to add to this summary as you wish.

Joe G.

24-12-2007, 17:35

Hint was posted, and the first two numbers were immediatly identified as GPS coordinates to Copley Square in boston. The third number has a greater dispute of interpretations, usually either being angle from north, or height. If used as an angle, it points through two obelisks, and then directly at the globe cafe, and in the general direction of Manchester, New Hampshere. Squares, triangles, and circles are all visible.

Other interesting sites include trinity church, whose name suggests triangles, and, along with release date, suggests a connection to the National Treasure movies. Another is the John Hancock Tower, which has train tracks on the top, and a counterweight system to counteract wind.

The national treasure theory lead to a link to a song called "Truckin" by Grateful Dead, whose chorus goes:

Sometimes the light's all shining on me
Other times I can barely see
Lately it occurs to me
What a long strange trip it's been.

This has been interpreted to mean the camera "light shining" and infared (can't see infrared)

There has also been scattered discussion about mathematical ways to make sense out of the numbers (nothing too significant yet), dave's new signature, etc.

DonRotolo

25-12-2007, 00:02

I agree. The IR decoder and the coordinates are just to point us to the fact we will be doing some navigation. I agree, but I think that decoding a beacon isn't necessary for navigation. The beam width won't be the factor for navigation, because either you decode the signal or you don't - it is not analog.
Copley Square in Boston, where atop the Hancock building is a beacon. Which has the capability of emitting 4 outputs - red solid, red flashing, blue solid, blue flashing.
Um, not quite. The John Hancock Tower is across the street from Copley Square, and it's the OLD Hancock building (walking distance away) with the lights. But, good insight on blue & red.
If I was on the GDC, I would have an internal bet with all my other GDC members as to how many posts were going to be made about the clue(s) on CD.They probably do, whoever gets closest wins dinner from the rest or something. We need to ask after kickoff...

A square in the middle of the field. The IR beacon your robot receives gives you some major advantage, but not having it doesn't mean you're not competitive. Red & Blue alliances, (my guess) 3 per side again.

Don

Bsteckler

25-12-2007, 10:00

Mike Nawrot

25-12-2007, 12:50

Hmmm... Just throwing this out there... We know that if we use the numbers as coordinates and heading, they point us at the Globe Cafe in Boston... The Boston Globe. Maybe there was something in the Boston Globe newspaper that could be used as a hint. Just an idea

11Mort11

25-12-2007, 14:18

the gamewill probablly use globe shaped game pieces:confused:

Daniel_LaFleur

25-12-2007, 14:20

the gamewill probablly use globe shaped game pieces:confused:

Atlasphere like from the old 'American Gladiators' ?

11Mort11

25-12-2007, 15:09

Atlasphere like from the old 'American Gladiators' ?

that would be amazing:ahh:

Vaillancourt88

25-12-2007, 17:48

Are we thinking in the right "sphere"? What about Right Ascension, Declination, Date....It would give the position of some celestial object, and explain the 3rd number, and Dave Lavery is a NASA guy...anyone have a starmapping program handy?

Sorry to come form left field--just my first impression.

Rob Vaillancourt

'course, R.A. is measured from 0 to 24 hours...so that won't quite work....

Maybe if we construct a large wooden badger.....

Daniel_LaFleur

25-12-2007, 18:13

Maybe if we construct a large wooden badger.....

ROFL ...

Somebodys been watching too much Monty Python :p

EricH

25-12-2007, 18:28

Look, you guys, the answer is right in front of you. Triangles, circles, in a square, and Trinity Church. What one object is a combination of all of the first three elements, and also shows each individually (like the Trinity, for Christians, almost)?

A TRAFFIC CONE!

I think the game piece is a traffic cone. Lay out an obstacle course. Bonus points for beating it in the end-of game automode.:D :yikes: :eek: :D

Big Kid

25-12-2007, 19:10

Idea:

People are bringing in the "one if by land, two if by sea" phrase. Well, the British came by sea, and two lanterns were hung in the tower of the Old North Church.

There will be two IR beacons on the field, each one sending out a different set of commands, one may be a correct set, and one may be a bogus set. The robot will have to differentiate between the two sets and follow the correct one to score points.

yes good idea, everything except the middle is filled with water and then we must land a robot on the middle take the tea board back on the boat and take it to ports along the sides. and one set of IR commands is the directions to the ports and the other is one that will lock the robot up for 30 seconds or a point deduction

Davie Byrne

25-12-2007, 19:16

coordinates are plausible, but these are out to six decimal points.
I think they could be color values or IR readings. Does anyone know much about RGB or other color models, better yet is there anyway we can match these values to that little IR circuit board thingy

artdutra04

25-12-2007, 23:34

dpick1055

25-12-2007, 23:42

Maybe FIRST is taking a hint from the Stangps and the robots will have to navigate the field this year using x,y, and z coordinates. Haha figures an awesome programming challenge right after I graduate.

Elgin Clock

25-12-2007, 23:45

the gamewill probablly use globe shaped game pieces:confused:

Atlasphere like from the old 'American Gladiators' ?

that would be amazing:ahh:

If that happens, I want credit.
From the 2007 Game Hint thread:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=547608&postcount=707

Daniel_LaFleur

26-12-2007, 07:50

If that happens, I want credit.
From the 2007 Game Hint thread:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=547608&postcount=707

Absolutely. 100% credit (Blame:p ) would go to you.

And it would be great :)

dr1008

26-12-2007, 11:50

steveg

26-12-2007, 13:23

Are we thinking in the right "sphere"? What about Right Ascension, Declination, Date....It would give the position of some celestial object, and explain the 3rd number, and Dave Lavery is a NASA guy...anyone have a starmapping program handy?

That was something I actually thought of, so a couple days ago I fired up Stellarium (http://www.stellarium.org/) to check. I tried observing using using equatorial coordinates, as well as from both Manchester, NH and Copley Sqaure, on both December 7th, 1900 and December 8th, 2007 at 5:48:41AM.

While there are some celestial bodies nearby, none are at the coordinates with the precision specified, and those that are close don't have any remarkable names.

Converting from degrees to hours, minutes, and seconds is easy.

Take the number, if it's negative, add it to 360. For example -71.076072 becomes 288.9239. Divide by 15 to get the hours. Take the fractional part, then multiply it by 60 to get minutes. Take the fractional part of that, and again multiply it by 60 to get seconds. So -71.078072 becomes 19hr5min41.724sec

Elgin Clock

26-12-2007, 13:33

Nice view & some good info:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dmFBgutzoBgC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22square+copley%22&source=web&ots=Tsd7oZvSeR&sig=qraQTxf8bRwKW49Gzl6dpjs95kU#PPA50,M1

More random Copley Plaza facts. :p
They filmed portions of the movie The Pink Panther 2 there on September 19th of this year.
http://picasaweb.google.com/pixiecakes/OnTheSet

And... uh oh.. one more thing before I go.

The Hancock Tower was designed by the architect I. M. Pei.
The same I. M. Pei some people guessed about back in '05 when trying to guess the clue that year.
Connections to previous years??? Ahhh!!!! My head a-splode!
Can this mean that our guesses for clues can be used in the future? :ahh:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=314043&postcount=561

We better be careful what we wish for in these posts from now on. :)

MiniNerd24

26-12-2007, 15:04

Okay I'm new to this guys but here it is
the first two numbers in the hint as we have all concluded are GPS coordinates
but I think I found out the last number!
Go to the FIRSTwiki and search 342.24.20.26 .
Now this seems like a dead end to me because it is an account for someone who apparently lives here : http://www.ipaddresslocation.org/ip-address-location.php?ip=75.21.123.237
And anyway You guys are probably smarter than me cause would never have found out or thought of all of these ideas:)

gregb1x

26-12-2007, 15:09

Hey All!

Warren Boudreau

26-12-2007, 16:00

It's almost embarrasing to be posting my idea on the 30th page of this thread. Don't you people sleep? :)

Anyway, my guess is that the game will revolve around positioning squares (Copley Square reference) between obelisks (directional reference to third number).

A derivation would be that the squares are really cubes of different colors (red, blue, green, orange). Four pairs of obelisks will border goals of four colors. The trick will be autonomously place the squares in the correctly colored goals. Or, better yet, the colored squares can only be scored when the correctly colored light (or IR signal) is active.

11Mort11

26-12-2007, 16:06

If that happens, I want credit.
From the 2007 Game Hint thread:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=547608&postcount=707

good call

American Gladiator meets First robotics
/*:D*/

MiniNerd24

26-12-2007, 17:39

Ok I haven't read all of the posts here:o but I was wondering, does anyone have an idea about how this game hint ties in with the first hint:confused: after all it was our first hint.

P.S. American Gladiator Robots amazing!

DAN1504

26-12-2007, 17:43

Now this seems like a dead end to me because it is an account for someone who apparently lives here : http://www.ipaddresslocation.org/ip-address-location.php?ip=75.21.123.237
And anyway You guys are probably smarter than me cause would never have found out or thought of all of these ideas:)
i noticed that one of the surrounding streets is Trinity Street. nice connection, i would never have thought of an ip address.

MiniNerd24

26-12-2007, 18:02

Well thank you:) but I found it by complete accident:o

BanksKid

26-12-2007, 20:12

bfvaneyck

26-12-2007, 20:28

Teams,

Has anyone, knowing Dave L's association with the Mars Rover program, tried mapping these coordinates on Mars?

bfvaneyck

26-12-2007, 20:47

Whoa! It's been over 20 minutes since I posted and still NO responses. Maybe all that caffine has lost it's effectiveness?

StephLee

26-12-2007, 20:53

Teams,

Has anyone, knowing Dave L's association with the Mars Rover program, tried mapping these coordinates on Mars?

I think it was tried earlier in the thread; in fact, I'm almost positive it was.

EDIT: Here it is, from page 19:
i went out on a limb and searched it on google mars (yes they have google mars) and it doesnt support coodinates
(i know there is probably no corrilation but worth a try)

AndyB

26-12-2007, 20:53

A few months ago there was a little discussion I think on CD about "counterweights" in the upcoming season ?

Anyone remember the goals from MVL 07'... Counterweights...

StephLee

26-12-2007, 21:01

I've just been to see "National Treasure: Book of Secrets" and thought I'd post my observations that go with the earlier speculations about a connection. If you care about having certain parts of the movie spoiled, don't read this next section.

---MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD---

The number 243 is part of the Library of Congress call number for the President's Book. This is both the main part of our third number backward, and a connection to the Library of Congress. It's also almost certainly coincidental, since it's such a small detail that I doubt the GDC could have found it online prior to the movie's release, and thus it would have nothing to do with our clue.

The more interesting connection I spotted was briefly mentioned earlier in this thread:

ok, i have read all [most] of this thread and i saw the theories about the movie national treasure and the counterweight idea. I saw the movie tonight and thought i would put in my two cents: (this may or may not spoil the movie for you, its not that important though)

near the end there are four characters who have to stand on the corners of a giant wooden square that is balanced on a giant spike. They have to move around to keep the square balanced, and then they have to move together to try and raise up a corner so the guy could reach a suspended ladder.

Im not sure if i totally believe in the theory connecting the clue to national treasure, but if its true I would say that there would be something like that in the game, maybe four robots (using IR) that have to balance on a square in the center for the endgame.
Thats just what i think, its probably wrong though but just putting it out there

This goes with the discussion about the Hancock Tower and it's counterweighting system, and is a much more likely connection to the movie since it's a larger plot point and could easily have shown up on a synopsis before the movie was released.

----END SPOILERS---

I realize this is all probably entirely circumstantial, but it's very interesting, and made the movie even more fun since I was constantly looking for connections. (I'd definately recommend the movie, by the way.)

My random thoughts for the night.

bfvaneyck

26-12-2007, 21:02

Hmmm..

I believe there is a protocol for geographic mapping of non-terrestrial planets that mirrors 'our' latitude/longitude corrordinate system. Has anyone tried searching the NASA site for Mars mappings?

AndyB

26-12-2007, 22:23

InfraRED..... RED planet, could be mars... don't know where i would even start in looking up a GPS coordinate on mars...

If it was Mars though, then why would they give us such specific coordinates. And what about the 3rd coordinate. I think GoogleMaps Streetview for Mars is still under development. If you take out a digit, how much broader do the coordinates then become. What about 2. Are we sure these are GPS coordinates?

Other thought... boston tea party.... they dumped what.... barrels of tea... BARRELS. Interesting game piece...

...
...
...
dot dot dot

bobdahaxor

26-12-2007, 23:02

Well. I think we overlooked what Mrs. Beatty said with the Deli. The deli's name is Short Stop Deli which would imply there is a lot of mobility needed. In addition short stops may be hard to do with massive counterweights or huge weights period!

Elgin Clock

27-12-2007, 01:19

Hmmm..

I believe there is a protocol for geographic mapping of non-terrestrial planets that mirrors 'our' latitude/longitude coordinate system. Has anyone tried searching the NASA site for Mars mappings?

If you go here: http://www.google.com/mars/

You can actually look at sites that have been named & mapped by clicking on things in the top of the map which will give you the coordinate of places, but you can't actually type in a coordinate to search it.

artdutra04

27-12-2007, 02:40

If you go here: http://www.google.com/mars/

You can actually look at sites that have been named & mapped by clicking on things in the top of the map which will give you the coordinate of places, but you can't actually type in a coordinate to search it.Here's our magic numbers inputted as lat/long coordinatea on Mars:

http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=42.349905&lon=-71.076072&zoom=8

If you zoom out a few notches, you'll see that all those lines make up (what appears to be) one of those giant dry riverbeds on Mars.

Akash Rastogi

27-12-2007, 02:47

Here's our magic numbers inputted as lat/long coordinatea on Mars:

http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=42.349905&lon=-71.076072&zoom=8

If you zoom out a few notches, you'll see that all those lines make up (what appears to be) one of those giant dry riverbeds on Mars.

I really don't think this applies to the game hint though. Unless its going ot be called Mars Madness or something in which robots use IR (infraRED-Red planet?) to move or collect globe shaped objects off the field (planetary object) and place them into the center. lol:p

$.02

artdutra04

27-12-2007, 03:50

And while I'm still sleepless at 3am, here's the location on the Moon. It's just south of the large crater, but nowhere near any of the Apollo mission landing locations.

http://www.google.com/moon/#lat=42.349905&lon=-71.076072&zoom=7&apollo=

I really don't think this applies to the game hint though.Exactly. ;)

Game Hints are governed by the laws of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle).

We* will never know the true meaning of game hints, for if we did, the observations which we carried out to uncover the true meaning would only invariably change the actual game hint itself. Thus making it a self-defeating endeavor.

However, if we postulate about an infinite number of possibilities for the Game Hint, it will run out of things to change into that have not already been used, and will thus be correct with one of the previously mentioned theories based upon simple statistics of normal-distribution with a mean-value of "banana"**.

* Except Car Nack (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=122). The mayonnaise jar of truth does knows all.

** Though depending on the circumstance, the mean-value can also be "Jello", "water" or "inflatable clowns".

Tottanka

27-12-2007, 05:49

However, if we postulate about an infinite number of possibilities for the Game Hint, it will run out of things to change into that have not already been used, and will thus be correct with one of the previously mentioned theories based upon simple statistics of normal-distribution with a mean-value of "banana"**.

Check Greg Needle's game guess from 2007 =]

GaryVoshol

27-12-2007, 07:04

Chief Samwize

27-12-2007, 08:19

Does anyone else find it ironic that when you open up the link for the coordinates on mars that there is an infered option on the top. Also when it is clicked on it highlights craters nearby.

-Sam

Vince lau

27-12-2007, 08:45

going by the Mars theme some of you are talking about, what if the 42.349905 is like the distance of Mars from Earth in million miles. Based on the info. found on this site http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=564
you find that mars is 0.5AU (Astronomical Units) from Earth. and if you convert to million kilometers you get 75 million kilometers or roughly 46.6028394 million miles. Not knowing how accurate this site is, maybe the 42.349905 is a more precise measurement. even though the difference is like 4 million miles. :p
only 9 days left to kickoff

Libby K

27-12-2007, 10:40

Does anyone else find it ironic that when you open up the link for the coordinates on mars that there is an infered option on the top. Also when it is clicked on it highlights craters nearby.

-Sam

WHen I did that, it showed part of the image, with a whole bunch of thick gray lines.

My immediate thought was, "Zoom out. Maybe it's a message".

It's nothing, but I figured it would have been

Nah nah nah nah nah!!! :p

-dave

.

MiniNerd24

27-12-2007, 10:55

This is off topic but has anyone noticed that the games objectives sort of rotate? ( This is just a stretch) e.g. 1995 Ramp 'n Roll 2007 Rack 'n Roll
1994 Tower Power 2003 Stack Attack

see. in 1994 towers 2003 more towers (stacking towers of game pieces)

this is the site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRST#FIRST_Robotics_Competition

I also noticed that (Why didn't we think of it?!:ahh: ) there was a polygon and T-shaped field mentioned for some of the games.
Any ideas?

MiniNerd24

27-12-2007, 11:13

If you zoom out a few notches, you'll see that all those lines make up (what appears to be) one of those giant dry riverbeds on Mars. - artdutra04
(Don't know how to quote)

The ground looks green in his pic. So maybe that's what they meant in the first clue:ahh: :confused: and seeing Montana's green heights It sorta makes sense right?

Chief Samwize

27-12-2007, 11:40

WHen I did that, it showed part of the image, with a whole bunch of thick gray lines.

My immediate thought was, "Zoom out. Maybe it's a message".

It's nothing, but I figured it would have been

Nah nah nah nah nah!!! :p

-dave

.

I did the exact same thing when I first saw it and then found it was nothing so I didn't mention it but I know exactly how you felt.:D

-Sam

B.Collette

27-12-2007, 14:09

Not sure if anybody did this yet, but I put the first number in to yahoo search and it came up with a Bloglines search for a company called Nanosolar (www.nanosolar.com).

The search result on Bloglines returned ALL THREE numbers we were given by FIRST.

Any idea how this can go with the game? Maybe something with the IR panel?

/brian

Elgin Clock

27-12-2007, 14:22

Not sure if anybody did this yet, but I put the first number in to yahoo search and it came up with a Bloglines search for a company called Nanosolar (www.nanosolar.com) (http://www.nanosolar.com)).
The search result on Bloglines returned ALL THREE numbers we were given by FIRST.
Any idea how this can go with the game? Maybe something with the IR panel?
/brian

It's just a stream of current blogs. The two seperate blog entries of Nanosolar's release about the $1 per kw/h of electricity it's new panel can produce & someone's totally unrelated blog about the clue just happen to be on the same page.
No connection there. Sorry.

DonRotolo

27-12-2007, 14:24

Maybe if we construct a large wooden badger.....Badger? We ain't got no Badgers... We don' need no stinkin' Badgers...
But I think I found out the last number!
Go to the FIRSTwiki and search 342.24.20.26
...Except that IP addresses are limited to the range 0 to 255. 342 cannot be an IP address.
what if the 42.349905 is like the distance of Mars from Earth in million miles. Not even close (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=663129&postcount=348).

I change my vote to squares that need to be maneuvered between obelisks.
(or is that obelisks between squares :confused: )
Don

.

B.Collette

27-12-2007, 14:30

We did just have another idea:

Trinity Church is in Copley Square, and it's powered by geothermal energy. Could the last number 342.242026 be a temperature of some kind?

The conversions were in an attachment here (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:w0Ssghva2oQJ:www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/attachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D5872%26d%3D1198306 024+342.242026&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

/brian

MiniNerd24

27-12-2007, 14:30

:] Yeah I think I'll go with the squares and obelisks too.

Frinkahedron

27-12-2007, 16:16

Somewhere, Dave is sitting around with his shades all :cool: at how far off we all probably are.

All these do is make my hype exponentially increase prior to build season, which isn't a bad thing :)

DAN1504

27-12-2007, 16:51

has anyone that went to Copley Square, taken any pictures?

Mr_I

27-12-2007, 17:13

So it's an EX-water game!

And we ALL know that "EX" marks the spot! :p

(Sorry, I had to do that for all of my students.)

sishu7

27-12-2007, 19:28

or it could be something that is just flying under everybodys radar because i dont think that the people from FIRST and NASA would just hand us the game on a silver platter.

UM... all this talk about answers being too obvious...

If it was obvious, we would have it figured out!!!

(Unless we want to do Dave's Princess Bride type logic puzzle thing, in which case it is obvious that it would not be obvious but it still must be obvious enough to be labeled obvious and therefore the most likely thing is the least obvious thing that was obvious enough for us to come up with... unless it was obvious that it would be obvious that it would not be obvious, in which case it really should be obvious.)

MiniNerd24

27-12-2007, 19:36

UM... all this talk about answers being too obvious...

If it was obvious, we would have it figured out!!!

(Unless we want to do Dave's Princess Bride type logic puzzle thing, in which case it is obvious that it would not be obvious but it still must be obvious enough to be labeled obvious and therefore the most likely thing is the least obvious thing that was obvious enough for us to come up with... unless it was obvious that it would be obvious that it would not be obvious, in which case it really should be obvious.)
LOL :D :p yeah and to be honest this thread has around 30 people in it who can't figure this out! Ironic.:p

Doug Adams

27-12-2007, 19:58

Looking on Wikipedia, John Singleton Copley not only painted Paul Revere, he also painted "The Defeat of the Floating Batteries at Gibraltar, September 1782". I seem do remember Dave, Woody and Dean ending the kickoff last year in some floats on water? Dave was slapping the water saying something like "what can we do for next year..."

Maybe there'll be 4 mobile targets each with their own IR beacon and frequency. Different frequencies for different point values.

MiniNerd24

27-12-2007, 20:06

Ya know, all of our observations, guesses, and ideas all seem to eventually bring up water.:ahh: And if you think about it wouldn't that be a cool if there was an event for making some kind of submersible?:p It would probably cost more to do though.:( Also what, wait :ahh: I just thought of another. The first clue said something about noodles and if it is pool noodles then it could be another reference to water. If anyone thinks of another kind of water reference let me know.

(You might want to use both clues)

Mr_I

27-12-2007, 22:15

I can't tell you how many years my team members spend December uttering the phrase "So the question is: submarine or hovercraft?"

Elgin Clock

27-12-2007, 23:32

The first clue said something about noodles and if it is pool noodles then it could be another reference to water. If anyone thinks of another kind of water reference let me know.
(You might want to use both clues)

Those were referencing 2006's game and the "noodle" clues, and "Montana" clues were clues released in December 2005.

Please start at the beginning of this thread, and see that our ONLY clues for the 2008 game are the release of an IR receiver board, and a series of 3 numbers, and nothing else.

Thank you.

trekkiencc74656

28-12-2007, 00:27

the ir was used in 2004. text from 2004 game manual found here (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/Team_Resources/Archived_Game_Docs/2004%20-%20The%20Arena.pdf):
3.2.5 IR Beacons
Centered on the top of each Tee Frame is a light beacon that continuously emits an infrared signal across the
playing field during a match. Each beacon emits at the same IR frequency, but sends pulse trains of different
pulse widths. The beacon nearest to the red moveable goal will transmit a Type-1 signal, and the one nearest
the blue goal will be Type-0. These signals are detectable by robot-mounted IR receivers that are tuned to the
beacons’ frequency. The receivers provide direct input to the robot’s control system when they sense an IR
signal.
FIRST has supplied appropriate code that allows teams to program their robot’s controller to make decisions
based on a received signal and discriminate between the two Tee locations. Thus teams may create
mechanisms on their robots to locate and track a beacon during the autonomous period. The Kit contains four
IR receivers and materials needed to build a beacon.
So it could be used for autonomous instead of the grenn light and camera this year.

trekkiencc74656

28-12-2007, 00:34

Arefin Bari

28-12-2007, 00:36

This is my only and final guess for 2008 game.

We started receiving the CMU cam back in 2005. Since then FIRST has motivated us to use the camera. But there are only few teams who have accomplished finishing the task using a camera. In 2008, FIRST will try to make it simple for teams to use the camera.

There will be an autonomous but it will be at the end of the game. Now let's look at the clues... and IR receiver and coordinate points (or seems like it). Every single year starting 2005 (and 2002) till now we had to go back to the home zone to receive bonus points. This upcoming season, the IR receiver will tell us what we should aim for (there may be multiple green lights just like 2007). The coordinate points refer to the home zone or certain zones that we are suppose to be at after the time runs out. If task is accomplished you receive bonus points.

... now it's time to wait till January 5th and see the real game.

Akash Rastogi

28-12-2007, 00:37

EricH

28-12-2007, 00:41

I just found this to I dont how many people saw it but the ir can be trained to four different command sequences meaning that it is probably going to be used like a remote control.the pdf for the ir instructions is available here (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/FRC_Documents_and_Updates/2008_Assets/FIRSTIR%20-%20Instructions%20_121007.pdf)Yes, we noticed (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60132). (Note: reading the whole thread might not be necessary to get to this conclusion, but it would be a good idea. If you don't want to look through the whole thing, search the thread (orange bar at top of thread, top right).) And it's a receiver, not a transmitter, so it can't be used like a remote control.

Optimizer

28-12-2007, 04:37

Either I'm missing something here, or I have cause to be sorely disappointed at the fine folks posting here! :)

Having come back, and read EVERY darned post, didn't anybody notice the infamous Dave's latest post (#48, on the page 24)? In the signature part on the bottom, it adds (and I think this is a new thing):

For the two - this season is for you.

Now, this could refer to some happy couple (or two separate individuals) who are of importance to FIRST, and who have something special going on. OR ... it might actually work with another theory I have.

Let's keep in mind, BTW, that last year's animation contest was called "Thinking Green", which was supposed to be about the environment (how that has to do with robotics, someone would have to explain to me).

I get to my theory this way. Let's assume that many of the previous posters are correct, and that if you stand at the given latitude and longitude, and look at the given bearing, that you see the "Globe Bar & Grill". I then ask you, what goes on at the Globe Bar and Grill?

My answer: "Global Warming"

Who would be "the two" in Dave's new hint? How 'bout the two recipients of that Nobel Peace Prize (again, don't ask me what GW has to do with World Peace). If the organizers are into environmentalism (which they apparently are), surely they couldn't resist commemorating the Peace Prize news. A lot of scientists are riding this "train", and would consider these guys to be heroes literally saving the world with science.

So I humbly :D suggest that this hint is trying to tell us that this year's game has a theme associated with Global Warming. The IR (from the first hint) is even heat-related.

My second favorite theory is that it points to the Tortoise and Hare sculptures, but we still haven't had a volunteer actually go there and report on EXACTLY where the coordinates point to. The "For the two" doesn't work as well for me with this one, though, since it's just a couple of statues.

Chief Samwize

28-12-2007, 08:30

Global warming is causing the polar ice caps to melt. WATER GAME!:D

Sorry couldn't help myself.

-Sam

Elgin Clock

28-12-2007, 10:37

Time for a side tracked thought.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare

My new thoughts about clue #2?

We can all agree (maybe) on the fact that it is a point in Copley Square looking at the heading 342.xxxxx, and I don't believe it really matters what the numbers after the decimal point are in that last number, they are just longer than they need to be to confuse us, and/or make us think harder or even better than we need to.

I believe the second clue is just a warning about the game that will be emphasised at kickoff and beyond. Knowing the GDC, this just sounds way too much like the general thinking from them towards us as teams as I have experienced in the past.

The warning... is simple.

The moral is stated at the end of the fable as: Slow and steady wins the race.

I've beaten this clue to death, and sometimes it's the things that are right in front of us that prove to be the most elusive to find or decode.

I'll leave out thoughts of an endgame autonomous mode, and an IR beacon on the field, but will leave with the thought that whatever our task is this year in the game, that we will have to be careful and not just go on a brute force mission to accomplish what we need to do.

Slow & Steady....

Now, this doesn't man I won't have more fun learning about Boston, and Copley Square, and the people*, and places that make up the area in question, but for a second, I believe that the Tortoise & The Hare statue give us the (simple) answer to the (not so simple) mystery we seek.

*For example, did you know that the Architect of Trinity Church (Henry Hobes Richardson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Richardson)) who has indeed left his legacy in the field of Architecture from Boston MA, to Hartford CT, to Chicago IL, has his own homestead in jeopardy of being demolished, and that it is on the National Trust's Top 11 most Endangered places? (http://www.nationaltrust.org/11most/03.html) I didn't know that. I didn't even know who he was, let alone that he led to the Richardson Romanesque style of Architecture here in the US. Very cool indeed.

Very cool stuff is to be found in the area of the Clue coordinates, you just have to look.

I'm putting Copley Square on my agenda of places to visit the next time I am in Boston.

Thank you for that GDC! If for nothing else than adding another place to my agenda to visit to learn just a little more about the past as you are busy creating the future! :)

-elgin

.

Oh, and btw... if that's not enough to satisfy your clue searching tendancies folks, check out THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd%27s_cycle-finding_algorithm) more complex & math related connection to The Tortoise & The Hare.

Let the games continue. :D

Only 9 more days till we know for sure...

MiniNerd24

28-12-2007, 11:31

Those were referencing 2006's game and the "noodle" clues, and "Montana" clues were clues released in December 2005.

Please start at the beginning of this thread, and see that our ONLY clues for the 2008 game are the release of an IR receiver board, and a series of 3 numbers, and nothing else.

Thank you.

Thank you, Elgin.:) Yeah I must of found the wrong "game hint" thread
before I joined.:o Darn and I've been giving myself headaches over that clue!:ahh: :o

Roger

28-12-2007, 12:46

Well, having been to Copley and seen nothing of importance, here are some more ideas to throw into the heap:

Assuming (of course!) that the first two numbers indicate an Earth position, and that position is in the middle of a brick plaza at Copley Square, it seems to me it's the playing field of the game, and that coordinates (of some sort) play a factor in the game.

Copley Square, and the whole of Back Bay, is not on a north-south grid, but (as carefully as I can do it capturing a google map and drawing a line on it using PaintShop Pro), is approximately 342.242026 degrees counterclockwise from North. I suppose my next trip to Copley I could bring some surveying equipment there and check my measurements?

Remember last years clue, with the photo of the "5" on the metal circle? There wasn't five anythings in the game -- not even five robots vs one. The "5" was simply the number on the rack that faced the audience. The clue numbers may not mean anything by itself, just that coordinates play a factor in the game. And maybe that the game is called "Copley Squares". (Copy Squares? Copling Squares? I really am not good at naming FIRST games.)

The infrared board clue may or may not have anything to do with coordinates. It seems to me that it is part of the game, and I'm guessing a part on the robot. I'm sure the number crunchers at FedEx were grinding their teeth -- what do you mean, ship a thousand packages right before Christmas?

One thought from our team -- you got 40-50 teams with tv remotes testing their robots in the Pits. Who knows how many more tv remotes in the stands. And six robots on the field receiving all these signals. The first week of competitions is going to be -- interesting. Our robot last year was chasing green light reflections off the side walls of the field in autonomous; something (as I heard it) they didn't think of. Now we have to figure out how to ignore random IR signals? I hope they've got an answer to this one.

The Tortoise and the Hare could play a part -- the statues are in the direction of 342.242026 degrees.

I'm putting Copley Square on my agenda of places to visit the next time I am in Boston.

While I'm not trying to dissuade you, Copley Square isn't high on my list. I'll grant you the architecture is interesting and varied and worth a visit, but I guess I'm a little jaded after commuting thru there for so many years.

If you want to see Boston from up high, the Prudential Tower is still open; the Hancock tower closed after 9/11 and there is some politics about not re-opening.

The Hancock tower was called the plywood tower after it was built and all the windows kept falling out. It's safer now.

Do not even try to visit there on Marathon Day, unless you go via Hopkinton ;) . The whole area is closed as that is where the runners go after they finish in front of the Boston Public Library. The finish line is on Boylston between the old and new BPL buildings.

Back Bay station is an Amtrak station and the last stop before South Station. There is also commuter rail and the Orange Line. The Green Line runs under Boylston Street to the 342.242026 bearing.

Copley is also a Boston First Night (new years eve) area. In years past they've had ice sculptures.

There was a movie (durn if I remember which one) that had an explosion at the corner of Boylston and Dartmouth Streets. I had to dodge all the movie equipment walking to Copley Station on the Green Line.

Back Bay is named because it was the literally the back bay of Boston, actually tidal flats, before the Charles River was dammed and the hills of Boston were pushed into all the bays. Before Boston was on the Shawmut Peninsula and when the wind was blowing the wrong way yoiu didn't want to be there. The North/South streets are named alphabetically and I still don't know which street is which. Newbury Street is where all the ritzy shops are.

And, last but not least, if you come to the Boston competition via the subway, it's on the "B" line of the Green Line trolley (subway), and get off at Pleasant Street. My office is right opposite the Agganis Arena. And then you'll know why I drive to work instead. :)

11Mort11

28-12-2007, 13:51

those numbers are field dimensions
or frequencys

just throwin it out there

11Mort11

28-12-2007, 14:11

maybe there was a typo andit should have been

Greeting Teams:

42.349905
-71.076072
342.242026
they could be new unheard of teams :D

MiniNerd24

28-12-2007, 14:16

(Copy Squares? Copling Squares? I really am not good at naming FIRST games.)

Yeah i'm no good at names for these games either, but what about Coupling Squares?

7/16ths Master

28-12-2007, 14:46

It seems like it is pretty well established that the first two numbers indicate a location, but with GDC, you can never be too sure.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting to start off with 342.24026 as a temperature (in Kelvin of course), so
342.24026 kelvin = 69.09026 degrees Celsius

I don't know, what you can do with that but I thought it was interesting, maybe there was a day that had that temperature that has signifigance? Or maybe someone on the GDC wants everyone to know more about global warming. This hint is starting to remind me the one that corresponded to Triple Play, quirky stuff.

The relation of Trinity Church to National Treasure, I think there maybe something to come out of that, like the fact there will yet again be three teams on an alliance. A few random facts about the history of the church,
Maybe one of those two facts can lead to something, if not it's odd history.

Oh and as an Art History Geek, the Church is in a Romanesque Style, which means the arches are rounded, maybe that has something to do with the field.
***************************************
THE WATER GAME CONNECTION!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!
So Trinity Church and Copley Square are located in the Back Bay Section of Boston and for those of you who do not know what that means....

Back Bay is a section of Boston that used to be the Back Bay of the City....before they filled it in with Dirt, Clay, Mud, Rocks, and whatever else they could find.

So that means...the game starts in water, and they fill it in with a bunch of stuff. Then as the temperatures begin to rise (see the first thing I stated, about global warming) the environment on the field changes and all of a sudden it goes back to a water game, so teams are challenged to stop the water from coming back and flooding the game area again, kind of like preventing global warming.

Ok I'm done, yeah I looked up the coordinates of the numbers in different orders, looks like I stumbled upon a Red Herring several times. Have fun figuring this one out!

At least other people are speculating about a water based game, a group of us have been having the feeling that this year would be a water based game for two reasons

1. The brand new battery we used last year is waterproof, we may need to use it again this year

2. At the end of last year's kickoff, if you recall, Dave, Woodie, and Dean were all floating on the ringers on water, and they said "I can't imagine what we can be doing next year".....

Thats all i got