2008 Game- Overdrive

[Chant_358]

What are your opinions on the 2008 version of FIRST?

[IrreAma]

This will prove to be an exceptional game that will host many new opportunities!

[Ericgehrken]

Speed and robustness are going to be crucial this year.
This is an amazing game.

[Éowyn]

Wow! This . . . is gonna be fun. :)

[Bongle]

Pros:
-Has easy-to-do things (drive in circle) as well as hard-to-do things (hurdling trackballs). This is a big improvement over 2007, which required fairly complex manipulators.
-Easy to explain at a high-level: "drive in a circle"
-The no obstruction rule will remove (or at least reduce) the intense (and IMO boring) defense seen last year
-Will be a good spectator game owing to its high speed nature
-After this year, most every team should have a solid drivetrain design, since this game is so drivetrain-heavy.
Cons:
-Could be a real box-on-wheels game: I missed the point values for various actions, but a trivial solution might be to simply lose the game piece and drive in a circle at top speed. This may prove to be a disincentive to game piece development.
-The game score will not be immediately obvious to someone watching in the stands. Where in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2007 games you could determine the current score (or at least who was winning) at a glance, 2008 will require viewers to have watched the whole match to know who is winning.

I think I'll love it this year.

[Jaime65]

My first thought was “wow – seems pretty easy.” I havt not watched all of the game because my NASA broadcast kept freezing. However, so far it seems pretty interesting. I never thought FIRST would design a racing game. Now that I think about it there really isnt much that needs to be rest after the games. I usually voulnteer as a field rester at competitions. I guess I will find something else to do. I cant wait! Good luck everyone.

[Branden Ghena]

New drive train
SWEET:D

[Jon K.]

Pros:
-The game score will not be immediately obvious to someone watching in the stands

I am not so sure about that however because they were talking about the real time scoring so they may show up on the screen better than in past years considering the huge need for the real time to be flawless.

[Molten]

Could someone post a link to the manual?

[dantheflipman]

At first it looked easy to our entire team, but now as we get into the details it looks like its going to require far more strategy then we thought :]

anyone know how much the ball weighs?

[Éowyn]

Could someone post a link to the manual?

http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=452

I made a stupid mistake and forgot to download it earlier. The site hasn't even loaded for me yet.

At first it looked easy to our entire team, but now as we get into the details it looks like its going to require far more strategy then we thought :]

anyone know how much the ball weighs?

I don't know. They looked like they were bouncing fairly easily, but they could still do some damage. Better build those bots well! :)

[fredliu168]

What prevents a team from throwing the opposition's ball out of the areana? Also, how do refs rule if your blocking the roadway.

[Molten]

Same here. How long until their server crashes? That would be a good poll.

[Jon K.]

Same here. How long until their server crashes? That would be a good poll.

A couple of minutes probably... if not already... You would think they would get a boost on everything for today and tomorrow every year.

[vivek16]

I downloaded the manual yesterday...

NO CIMS!?!?!?!?!?! arrgh.... the world has gone mad.

-vivek

EDIT: no cims in the kop but apparently the robot parts says the kop has the chalupas...

[Vikesrock]

I've uploaded a zipped copy of the decrypted manual to Rapidshare for anyone having trouble getting it off the FIRST site.

EDIT: I have been informed that the manual is copyrighted and those hosting it last year were asked to remove it. After being informed of this I decided to take down my mirror of the file.

[woodze13]

The track ball weighs about ten pounds... how do i get the manual to stay decrypted and not have to do it everytime?

[Chaos204]

i didn't write the code down Help!

[dantheflipman]

I've uploaded a zipped copy of the decrypted manual to Rapidshare for anyone having trouble getting it off the FIRST site.

2008 FRC Manual (http://rapidshare.com/files/81486692/FRC_Manual.zip)

Dang, i tried to download it then remembered that our school blocks all major download sites... someone should have torrented it:p

[Éowyn]

I've uploaded a zipped copy of the decrypted manual to Rapidshare for anyone having trouble getting it off the FIRST site.

2008 FRC Manual (http://rapidshare.com/files/81486692/FRC_Manual.zip)

THANK YOU!!

i didn't write the code down Help!

It's

Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!?

EDIT: The zipped version available for download at the top of the page apparently doesn't need the code.

[Dorienne]

I think this game is a big improvement from previous years. It's a semi-simple concept, but in the grand scheme of things, it will be challenging.

I'm slightly worried about how tight the space seems to be for the robots, and the balls look heavy. My main concern is the robots; I hope all teams build them to be very sturdy and strong.

Good luck to all teams! Hope to see a lot of you this year.

[fredliu168]

Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!?

[woodze13]

the code is Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!?

[dantheflipman]

i didn't write the code down Help!

Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!?

someone correct me if i'm wrong...

[H4X@174]

The game is, in contrast to Dean's thoughts incredibly simple. I believe that it, in some ways diverted FIRST from tradition, however, as I've been mulling it over, it IS too simple in many ways. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there really isn't pushing, I mean come on, the whole game revolves around being at least slightly aggressive, what are bumpers for?

[Robo_Cat_379]

defensive stratagies anyone????

[Binome]

I really think this game has a realistic auto mode, which is great, and should eliminate those boring moments in the beginning of a match. Should be an amazing game to watch and participate in.

[Taraxacum]

The game is, in contrast to Dean's thoughts incredibly simple. I believe that it, in some ways diverted FIRST from tradition, however, as I've been mulling it over, it IS too simple in many ways. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there really isn't pushing, I mean come on, the whole game revolves around being at least slightly aggressive, what are bumpers for?

Probably for the "light bump" to notify another robot that you want to pass. And because those track balls are massive.:ahh:

[bhsrobotics1671]

if anyone else needs the manual you can find the decrypted zipped and non zipped files on our server.

www.brt1671.com/08manual

[Jon K.]

The track ball weighs about ten pounds... how do i get the manual to stay decrypted and not have to do it everytime?

Unless you have a pro copy of Adobe you can't easily(unless they have changed something within the past year to allow for it) Best bet is to just download the new unencrypted manual sometime today or tomorrow.

[waiakea2024]

Hey, my team has some questions. If you have two RoboCoaches, does that second RoboCoach need to come from another team? They had that on the red alliance and they had two Coaches...Can someone help us out? Thanks and Happy FIRST Season!:)

[Jon K.]

Here's a question... If the intent of the last portion of the match is to get the trackball onto the overpass and as I have currently read the rules(may have missed something) then what if I were to try to put my red trackball onto the overpass in the blue homestretch... "<G36> HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing
ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each
infraction." If you cannot be more than 6' tall at this point and the over pass is 6.5' tall then how are you going to accomplish this since you cannot go backwards on the track to try to put the trackball up?

[Jon K.]

Hey, my team has some questions. If you have two RoboCoaches, does that second RoboCoach need to come from another team? They had that on the red alliance and they had two Coaches...Can someone help us out? Thanks and Happy FIRST Season!:)

ROBOCOACH: A pre-college student team member designated as the only team member
permitted to provide external stimuli to the ROBOT from either of the two ALLIANCE
ROBOCOACH STATIONS. There is one ROBOCOACH per TEAM.

p.s. sorry for the double post

[Andrew Rudolph]

Seems alot like inspirado from my arch nemisis, all i have to say is it could be..

http://the2ndhalf.typepad.com/andys_diner/images/2007/09/08/nascar_boring_2.jpg

[waiakea2024]

ROBOCOACH: A pre-college student team member designated as the only team member
permitted to provide external stimuli to the ROBOT from either of the two ALLIANCE
ROBOCOACH STATIONS. There is one ROBOCOACH per TEAM.


Yes we have read that in the rules. In the game demonstration with Woodie and Dean, the Red Alliance had TWO RoboCoaches, is that legal? Can We give up a remote to another team so they have two? Can we give up a driver for a team to have two RoboCoaches for a robot?

[skier144]

I was reading the rules for the new game(arena) and it mentioned a 1/2" to 1" bump, does anybody know any more about this? Thank You.

[Vikesrock]

Sorry about that :(

Here's the KOP checklist (attached to this post)

EDIT: I have been informed that those mirroring the manual last year were asked to take it down. After being informed of this I have decided to take down my mirrors before being asked.

Could someone post the kit of parts checklist? It's not in the zip... ;)

BTW: mirror: http://nix-software.com/FRC_Manual.zip

Thanks!

[slade24]

defensive stratagies anyone????

I don't really see any. You can't block the path of other robots, you can't reach up onto the other team's overpass and knock down their balls (6ft height restriction and the overpass is 6.5ft up), and you can't hold an opponent's ball.

Basically its just going to be a lot of driving in circles. Boring.

[Taraxacum]

Does anyone know where to find a wiring diagram for the ir reciever?

[JoeXIII'007]

My reaction:

First thoughts: Ditto that of Andrew... Robots going around in circles
Second thoughts: Lots of room for every team to possibly win, from rookies to veterans and everyone in between, this will make for some interesting play.
Third thoughts: is this the robotic version of quidditch??? close... maybe... not quite
Fourth thought: FIRST has kept it simple, well deserved kudos for that.I honestly see some interesting developments from here... good luck everyone.

[vhcook]

The trackballs won't even come close to fitting through a standard door when inflated. (40 inch ball, 30 inch door) That's going to be annoying in a hurry.

You can't block the path of other robots, you can't reach up onto the other team's overpass and knock down their balls (6ft height restriction and the overpass is 6.5ft up).


There's got to be a legal way to reach the opponent side overpass or one of your trackballs will effectively be out of the game if it starts on the other side.

[keenanmolner]

WHERE ARE THE CIM'S!!!:confused: :eek:
ARE THEY SERIOUS IN NOT GIVING US CIM'S
Can you use ones from last year or can you only use the motors that they give us this year?:ahh:

[fordchrist675]

I got the manual today
i like this seasons game i feel it is easier in the most part other than incorporating the infared and the remotes will be a challenge and also teams that have always taken the defensive aspect will have o change as this is a primarily offensive game

[feliks_rosenber]

Wow this year's games looks pretty easy at first glance.
Drive in circles and earn points.

When you get to know the details, though, it doesn't look that simple anymore.
How long does a bot have to stay at the same place for judges to consider it as blocking ?

Can't wait to find out whether this turns to be purely a race game or something more complex.:eek:

[fredliu168]

There's got to be a legal way to reach the opponent side overpass or one of your trackballs will effectively be out of the game if it starts on the other side.

I think, you have to bump the bottem of your ball through the hole to get it down.

[fordchrist675]

Yea no cims is what they say i like how spheres have been the game for 3 years in a row haha.

[Deacon Blues]

I am looking at the checklist, and it includes 2 2.5in CIMS, so I dont know what you guys are freaking out about.

The .5in Bump is by the center divider, whoever asked that.

HAs anyone done calculations on how long it would take their robot from last year to tranverse the field?

[Taraxacum]

Third thoughts: is this the robotic version of quidditch??? close... maybe... not quite



Absolute LOL.

[ShortBang]

Has anyone used the ToughBox gearboxes that are included in the KoP before?

[Éowyn]

Yea no cims is what they say i like how spheres have been the game for 3 years in a row haha.

Toroids aren't spheres. :)

[Bongle]

I think, you have to bump the bottem of your ball through the hole to get it down.

My first edition of this post was probably in error.

Edit:A math proof that the ball should dangle far enough below the rails to be bump-able

given a trackball center at (0,0)
given a trackball contact point with a rail at (16,y) (the rails are 32" apart)
given the trackball is 20" and assuming it remains approximately spherical, then...

x^2 + y^2 = r^2
16^2 + y^2 = 400
y^2 = 400 - 256
y = 12

So the contact point for the rails will be 12" below the center of the ball. This means that between the rails, the bottom of the ball should be 8" below them, and thus 2" below the maximum allowed height of a robot in the opponent zone. However, this is in an ideal world where the rails are infinitely thin and the ball is perfectly sperical. Since the rails are 1.5" wide and the ball will deform some, the ball may be slightly higher than where I computed it to be, and the contact space for a robot will be very, very small.

Edit: see attachment below for diagram.

[fordchrist675]

well circles have been in the game since my freshmen year

06 the aim high balls
07 rack n roll tubes
08 overdrive track balls

[Kat Kononov]

HAs anyone done calculations on how long it would take their robot from last year to tranverse the field?

I'm sure a lot of teams (including mine) could just USE their robot from last year. It has everything you need: a manipulator large enough to pick up an inner tube is large enough to pick up the balls, and if their manipulator could reach the top row on the Rack, then it can reach the balls also. At most, their old robot will need some modifications. :(

I don't like this game because it's not very challenging. See, you can make a drivable box bot in a day, and have it score points. You can also recycle a lot of ideas from last year. I really hope that teams choose to challenge themselves and go for the complex stuff like the IR board and autonomous. At least that's what I want my team to do.

[BBnum3]

I voted for Hate it. I wouldn't say I hate it, but I definitely don't like it.

There's no defense. Ideally in this game no robots on opposing alliances would even come in contact with one another. If FIRST wants to be as popular as sport they should include sports-like strategies into the games. The argument can be made that this is like NASCAR, but as I am not a fan of it I don't find this game appealing. It's surprising to me that this is the first year bumpers have been required because robot-robot contact is not a large part of the game.

Also, I think watching robots go around in circles could get boring pretty fast.

Another problem I see is IR interference. If each team is allowed 2 RoboCoaches then it's possible to have 12 remotes all going off in the beginning of the game. The video we watched at kickoff said that interference would certainly adversely affect the IR board. Hopefully there's a solution to this, as it would not be fun to have your robot controlled by another team's remote.

That said, one positive thing I can say about this game is that it definitely allows rookie teams to make a robot that scores on its own. All your robot has to be able to do is drive and you can score points for your team.


I'll probably end up changing my mind as the weeks progress, but this is how I see things at this point in time.

[redtide]

hey does anyone know if the balls have to be removed from the over pass to score the bonus points for being on the overpass at the end of the game

does anyone know which way the ball has to leave from the overpas

thanks in advance

[Jon K.]

Another problem I see is IR interference. If each team is allowed 2 RoboCoaches then it's possible to have 12 remotes all going off in the beginning of the game. The video we watched at kickoff said that interference would certainly adversely affect the IR board. Hopefully there's a solution to this, as it would not be fun to have your robot controlled by another team's remote.

ROBOCOACH: A pre-college student team member designated as the only team member
permitted to provide external stimuli to the ROBOT from either of the two ALLIANCE
ROBOCOACH STATIONS. There is one ROBOCOACH per TEAM.

At most there will be 6 remotes being used at any one time.

[BBnum3]

At most there will be 6 remotes being used at any one time.

Oops, my bad, Hadn't been able to download the manual yet. Thanks for pointing that out. It's still a fair amount of remotes though.

[Kat Kononov]

I voted for Hate it. I wouldn't say I hate it, but I definitely don't like it.

Also, I think watching robots go around in circles could get boring pretty fast.

I'll probably end up changing my mind as the weeks progress, but this is how I see things at this point in time.

I exactly agree with you.

[SSMike]

I have a few questions:

I wonder what the refs will do if a robot breaks down in the middle of the track, thereby obstructing it. Will it be a penalty?

During the Kickoff broadcast, they gave a brief tutorial about the IR board. They said that different remotes can disrupt the receptors. Does this mean that the robocoaches can disrupt another team's IR board?

During the game practice, two red "bots" passed the trackballs back and forth. On would lift it over the bar and then the other would pass it back. Could you hypothetically do this the entire game, as long as you are not obstructing the path?

[dtengineering]

"And now for something completely different..."

should have been the lead in to the introduction. The GDC has caused a bit of a paradigm shift for teams this year... which is a good thing. No longer is pushing power going to be a factor in design... but cornering ability will be.

We're switching from building tanks to building hot rods this year, people!

This kind of change is good as it keeps teams from doing too much pre-season preparation. While pre-season prep is good, I can pretty much guarantee that every team is re-evaluating their pre-season drivetrain plans from the ground up and we are all starting from scratch today.

Way to go GDC... this looks like another winner.

Jason

[Jake177]

During the game practice, two red "bots" passed the trackballs back and forth. On would lift it over the bar and then the other would pass it back. Could you hypothetically do this the entire game, as long as you are not obstructing the path?

I didn't see the webcast, but as near as I can tell from reading the manual this is legal. The GDC definitely went through a lot of trouble to make sure one robot couldn't spend the entire match passing a ball back and forth over the hurdle (a la the 1995 game). The only problem I can see is that the robot on the far side of the hurdle would have to avoid breaking the plane of the finish line, violating G22.
<G22> Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction.

[Nicodemus]

I love the idea... it seems like a generally simple idea complex enough for a returning team to understand what they want but also what's more fun then building a robot that runs around really, really, fast. It's a good idea on their part... Keep up the good work GMC

[jason701802]

is anyone having problems downloading the sensor manual or the pneumatics manual. it just says 404 not found for me.

[Bongle]

I just thought of this:
Teams that have the capability to do a lot of driver training (read: can build a practice bot) will probably have a bigger advantage this year. Since it's all about speed and control, teams whose drivers have spent many hours on a robot will have an edge.

Think about it this way: Go try to play a challenging driving game like Forza, GT4, or Live For Speed for an hour, and note your times after an hour. Then continue to play it for 20 hours, and see how much better and versatile you've become. That's the kind of training difference you'd probably see in real life as well. A driver that is very familiar with how his/her robot behaves will have a big advantage going into a race like this.

[SSMike]

is anyone having problems downloading the sensor manual or the pneumatics manual. it just says 404 not found for me.

Yeah it said the same thing for me too, I don't know why though. I guess I'll try later.

[vivek16]

is anyone having problems downloading the sensor manual or the pneumatics manual. it just says 404 not found for me.

I am too. I dont think they uploaded it yet.

-vivek

[Petey]

I'm running on only about four hours of sleep after waking up early to see Obama's speech, so maybe I missed this, but:

Am I crazy, or is there no rule limiting the speed of projectiles this year?

[skrew-ball]

I'm running on only about four hours of sleep after waking up early to see Obama's speech, so maybe I missed this, but:

Am I crazy, or is there no rule limiting the speed of projectiles this year?

My team is currently going over the rules now. I'll mention it and see what comes up.

[skrew-ball]

in section 8, <R59> it says you are aloud to use up to 4 of the 2-1/2" CIM motors, 2 are in the KoP

this makes me happy.

for the projectiles, I just did a Ctrl + F on the manuel setions that look like they would involve "projectiles".

Reasonable efforts must be taken to remove,
mitigate, or shield any sharp edges, pinch points, entanglement hazards, projectiles,
extreme visual/audio emitters, etc. from the exterior of the ROBOT.

Now I don't know if this refrences the trackballs or not. I don't think it does, because the kick off animation showed a robot "kicking" a ball.

[MiniNerd24]

Frankly I think that it is fun and yet poses a challenge.:)

[skrew-ball]

well, where is the complex challenge that forces you to lose sleep and pop a bottle of Advil? This is a race. Build a fast robot, with an arm to grab the end pole of the divider and that's it. Once you grab the pole you are flung around the corner and race some laps. I like the racing concept, but this is FIRST. What is challenging you? I don't get it.

srry: there is no room for this "arm" to grab the wall. But you can still just race some 'bots.

[Ragnarokae]

well, where is the complex challenge that forces you to lose sleep and pop a bottle of Advil? This is a race. Build a fast robot, with an arm to grab the end pole of the divider and that's it. Once you grab the pole you are flung around the corner and race some laps. I like the racing concept, but this is FIRST. What is challenging you? I don't get it.

<G34> Arena Interaction - ROBOTS may push or react against any elements of the arena, provided there is no damage or disruption of the arena elements. ROBOTS may not grab, grasp, grapple, or attach to any arena structure.

It's more about turning ability, because it isn't allowed to slingshot around the pole.

[skrew-ball]

yeah i just read that.

But I still don't understand the "challenging" factors of this game. As others posted, this is a race. FIRST is supposed to be a challenge, not a display of simple skills.

[Petey]

yeah i just read that.

But I still don't understand the "challenging" factors of this game. As others posted, this is a race. FIRST is supposed to be a challenge, not a display of simple skills.

Mastering simple skills can be a complex challenge.

Ohm.

[Ragnarokae]

One thing is that if everyone just runs around, the scores will be very equal. So trackball use is essential (at least to my perspective) in order to win.

So you must have some bots with good racing skills, and others that can get the balls down, and then get them back up again to get the extra points.

Now, if someone were to be able to build a bot that was very good at racing AND could manipulate the ball...

[pacoliketaco]

first impression: in my opinion this game is just too simple. it will be nice for the rookie teams because all they need to do is drive, but what about the veteran/experienced teams? After inflating our trackball and moving it around, i think it will be VERY hard to pick it up at least 7 or 8 feet off the ground because of its size and weight. i am just not sure how a robot can manage to pick up the ball and lift it, considering i have a hard time myself trying to pick it up. I really dont like the fact that almost all defensive "plays" are now illegal and all that will happen during regionals is that you will see robots going in a circle, and not much beyond that. during the game video, i was almost expecting there to be more game pieces thrown onto the field to make this more interesting. i dont think that only 4 massive game pieces is enough to make an interesting game. in past years it was fun to see the robots either shooting balls into goals or getting a complete wrap-around on the rack, but what is the fun in going around in circles?

[finaldark]

What? I can't believe some of you think that the Defense last year was a bad idea. I personally thought lasts years game was awesome, it was more like a real sport. You got to see robots really going at each other, breaking some parts, which led to fun frustration in the Pits later :yikes:

If you ask me, I like this years game, but i wanted to see something more "head-to-head". Maybe its because i play hockey.. Good ol' checks.

[Alex Dinsmoor]

I think this is a really fun game (from a programmers standpoint). The hybrid mode should also lead to some very interesting matches. The only problem is that there will be falling balls that could damage a robot.

When we were at the kickoff (in Flint, MI) they kept mentioning this website and chief delphi was sitting right in front of us. We had a good laugh.

[Ragnarokae]

What prevents a team from throwing the opposition's ball out of the areana? Also, how do refs rule if your blocking the roadway.

<G29> POSSESSING Opponent’s TRACKBALLS - ROBOTS may not be in the POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL belonging to an opposing ALLIANCE. A PENALTY will be assigned for each violation. HERDING of an opponent’s TRACKBALL and removing an opponent’s TRACKBALL from the OVERPASS is permitted.

<G30> TRACKBALL Out of Bounds - TRACKBALLS that leave the arena will be placed back on the TRACK at the earliest safe opportunity. The TRACKBALL will be placed on the TRACK at the approximate location where it exited.


You can throw it out (it seems) but it will just be placed back in. And you will get a penalty for possessing an opponent's ball.

[LordTalps]

first impression: in my opinion this game is just too simple. it will be nice for the rookie teams because all they need to do is drive, but what about the veteran/experienced teams? After inflating our trackball and moving it around, i think it will be VERY hard to pick it up at least 7 or 8 feet off the ground because of its size and weight. i am just not sure how a robot can manage to pick up the ball and lift it, considering i have a hard time myself trying to pick it up. I really dont like the fact that almost all defensive "plays" are now illegal and all that will happen during regionals is that you will see robots going in a circle, and not much beyond that. during the game video, i was almost expecting there to be more game pieces thrown onto the field to make this more interesting. i dont think that only 4 massive game pieces is enough to make an interesting game. in past years it was fun to see the robots either shooting balls into goals or getting a complete wrap-around on the rack, but what is the fun in going around in circles?
It's a simpler game as far as scoring and such, but a harder game for how to do it. Getting a ball over that overpass is going to be very interesting. How to get the second trackball over the opponents home stretch without incurring a penalty -- frustratingly difficult. I was happier with the previous game though.

[abeD]

It's not as easy as you guys think, a simple tank won't be able to take those corner's at high speed. Designing a robot that has steerable wheels is not necessarily such an easy task.


Also If you can't collapse your arm or are holding a ball high speed turns will definitely result in lots of flipping.

[Rafi Ahmed]

What happens if your Alliances ball is on your opponents overpass? How do you get your ball since you can't go over 6ft on your opponents home stretch?

[Billfred]

The more I look at the game, the more I enjoy it. The task is easy to understand (get your ball, get it over the overpass, swing around and do it again), and even someone who doesn't get the subtleties of the game can get the jist in about thirty seconds. Flying bricks can score for the alliance, but the ones you'll see on Saturday afternoon will do more faster.

Still, we'll see how it plays out on the field.

[Ragnarokae]

What happens if your Alliances ball is on your opponents overpass? How do you get your ball since you can't go over 6ft on your opponents home stretch?

There is already a thread about this subject here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60686

[Koko Ed]

I cannot pass judgement of this game in therory so I will wait til I see it in practice (at least during the scrimmages) before I make a decision about how I truly feel about it.
At least it's different. I submitted a racing game design a few years ago. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=261600&postcount=5)

[Pavan Dave]

I actually think this game is okay. *NOTE: I'm surprised that the concession stands will not be serving booze and hot dogs on a stick and having the regionals and robots perform outdoors* I think that teams like 25, 111, 148 and other prestigious teams in the community will have a robot designed to both "partner" and be able to grab from over the rails as well as being able to pick them up and move them themselves, giving them the advantage IF they are placed with an experienced team (Eliminations).... I think that the GDC must not have had cable while coming up with this game hint but at the same time I disappointed at the "lack" of autonomous. Because we are able to use "remote controls" it takes away from the Auton. I think you might as well have just had 10 seconds of auton, 10 extra auton/remote, regular round but instead its how it is.... Its all good though in the end I think I may be dizzy but it will be a good experience. Soon I will be contacting my lawyer so I can begin taking the rules apart line by line but I'll let him sleep right now ];-)> ... I am disappointed though with the fully offensive game and the fact that a kitbot with no manipulator can complete this task. In 2006 you at least had to be able to store balls or "plow" but the "plow" was a type of manipulator.. But in the end I guess this makes it fair for everyone, and the "race the the finish" type ending will be finally administered to some degree as I expect most teams to "crane" the robot and try and get it on top of the 'bridges'...... Thats how I explained the game to my parents --- Nascar with bridges and balls..... Its not the best game FIRST has come up with, but at least its not the worst.

GDC.... Come on. Counter-clockwise? ... I believe NASCAR might file a lawsuit!

Peace,
Pavan

EDIT: I'm disappointed that there is no 'green light'. Ever since my first year in FIRST in Atlanta when I saw the light up trick with the red blue and green lights I have been expecting multiple colored lights. Over the years though it seems that the Camera and the lights have lost their 'importance' in the world of FIRST... *sigh*

[Kyle Love]

The day has come, a bunch of little FIRST race cars will soon exist.

[Warren Boudreau]

NASCAR without the wrecks. Yawn......

It's not the worst game, but it doesn't move my WOW-meter.

[BlondeNerd]

I think it's really interesting. I was expecting direct robot dependancy, like the ramp-bots last year. Manipulating an object as large and heavy as a trackball is not easy and I am excited to see what everyone comes up with! I think that the game will be more exciting in actuality than it may seem right now.

[Jeminunzi]

I dunno, i'm not really a huge fan of it. I'm sure it will grow on me though, it seems like chaos to me right now. It seems like it's going to be difficult for the refs to keep track of too.

[Tetraman]

Overdrive will probably end up like Rack n' Roll with me. I hated Rack n' Roll until it got competitive.

The one issue I'm having right now...I'm not sure if I want to sign up for Volunteering for field reset...how many people do you need to reset the field this year? 2?

[Scott358]

Points scored for racing around the track, assuming 10 laps (which will be pretty hard to do), is 20.

Passing a ball over once is worth 8, and 12 if you place it at the end, making the balls worth the effort (for those who can do it).

I'd suggest the game won't simply be a lot of driving in circles (especially for those playing on Saturday afternoons!).

[sayso_411]

I Think it will be crowded with 6 robots on the field
I was surprised at how big the ball was (i mean it was huge!)
:|

[Joe Matt]

Overdrive will probably end up like Rack n' Roll with me. I hated Rack n' Roll until it got competitive.

The one issue I'm having right now...I'm not sure if I want to sign up for Volunteering for field reset...how many people do you need to reset the field this year? 2?

From what I see... 0. All the ball placement would be done by the reffs.

[scottydoh]

This game sucks...come on FIRST, you could't have though of anything more original???

[Pavan Dave]

This game sucks...come on FIRST, you could't have though of anything more original???

Its hard to make something everyone likes. The best they can do is hope that people at least deal with it and play and learn to enjoy it. You'd be surprised at how much fun a "boring sounding" game will turn out to be in the eliminations at the regionals you attend.

Don't be quick to judge like I was last year... keep an open mind!

[ZP8892]

The ball weights approximately 10 pounds and is 40 inches in diameter. I read the manual lol! =D

[ZP8892]

The ball weights approximately 10 pounds and is 40 inches in diameter. I read the manual lol! :)

[Richard Wallace]

..... Thats how I explained the game to my parents --- Nascar with bridges and balls..... NASCAR with balls. One of the new students on our team said the same thing during our initial strategy session today.

Props to the Game Designers. This is gonna be fun. I think the action will be fast, tough, and audience-friendly. Its a good thing bumpers are mandatory.

[Matthew2c4u]

I have a few questions:

I wonder what the refs will do if a robot breaks down in the middle of the track, thereby obstructing it. Will it be a penalty?

During the Kickoff broadcast, they gave a brief tutorial about the IR board. They said that different remotes can disrupt the receptors. Does this mean that the robocoaches can disrupt another team's IR board?

During the game practice, two red "bots" passed the trackballs back and forth. On would lift it over the bar and then the other would pass it back. Could you hypothetically do this the entire game, as long as you are not obstructing the path?

Via
<G07> A ROBOT that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH
LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again
and
<G13> A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s
FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again.
Which makes your move legal, but no points would be scored

[boy_scout72688]

hmmmm,

This almost seems like we don't need field reset people, a score-keeper/ field power controller, or anything like that. I thought they were complimenting the volunteers during the kick off event not trying to get rid of us. Idk if I like this game this year.

[VoX]

I am confused about rule <G36> which states that "HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing
ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each
infraction." This would make it impossible to get your trackball from the overpass (which is 6.5 feet tall!) which runs over the other teams HOME STRETCH, can you please tell me what I am missing here?

[jwdougan]

At first it looked easy to our entire team, but now as we get into the details it looks like its going to require far more strategy then we thought :]

anyone know how much the ball weighs?
The ball is 10lbs and 40" in diameter.

[swalker92]

I just want to give major props to the kick-off at OSU. This is my first year in this thing and we got our "kit-bot" built today in about 3 1/2 hours. It was great getting to see it move today. Again way to go everybody that made that possible.

[galewind]

we measured the ball to be roughly 7.4 pounds (or 7.8 pounds), I dont recall. Anyone else get the discrepancy?

[Drwurm]

I'm not that thrilled about Overdrive. We just came up with a 4 speed shifter base and now we can't even push.... Also, this isn't really the most exciting/interesting game to confront the media with.

There really aren't that many different strategies to come up with this time. Last year, you could score on the rack or be a rampbot (or both), 2 completely different tasks. This year, you can go around the track, go around the track with a ball, or go around the track and pop the ball up every once in a while.

[Lawry Goldstein]

I have to say that I feel the overall game is very good with many different levels of complexity for all skill levels.
-Drive around
-Drive around with ball
-Drive around with ball and hurdle
Personally, I kind of wish that one of the balls was on the ground, one in the air incase rookies ever end together or no-one can get a ball off that round, it will be very boring since there isn't going to be any difference and they will just have to sit there and lose.

Other then, I am happy with everything but the 'hybrid' mode. I feel like it does nothing over autonomous and will be abused by teams hoping to make it act like a teli-operated period. I am also slightly worried that these remotes will be unreliable during competition, and teams will be tricked into counting on something that doesn't work. 1 remote well aimed in a workshop will be much different then 6 remote during a competition.

P.S. Doesn't Plexiglas block IR light, meaning that remotes wouldn't work behind the safety shields?

[Tetraman]

Also, this isn't really the most exciting/interesting game to confront the media with.

This.

Where did the incredible game designs go from 4+ years ago go? The games are getting a lot more simple for outsiders to understand, but in the simplicity there isn't enough room for incredible innovation and hurts teams in the longer run. All the designs of summer projects have basically gone to waste unless you made a drive train that turns fast. I do enjoy the idea of something new, but when you get down to it, this game can turn out to be another stack attack where whomever can build a robot that can go over the line faster wins.

I've seen some mentor and student game designs so much more thought provoked and laid out. What if next year the game design committee were a group of senior team mentors?

Now this little rant may be only because of my headache. :mad: :rolleyes: But there are some truths to it.

One thing I must applaud is a judge certification. While I may fail at it and might not even be able to judge, I'll see if I can take it. Maybe it would be a good idea if all FIRST students take it.

[cicib99]

this is a very creative and good game.

Its give rookie teams something that they can be really good at and for other teams like us it posts the big challenge of hurdling..

Its seems like competition time will be exciting too.

[Mike@1023]

What prevents a team from throwing the opposition's ball out of the areana? Also, how do refs rule if your blocking the roadway.

Im almost positive you will recieve a penalty for removing any trackball from the field. hence, the outer walls...:ahh:

[Mike@1023]

I downloaded the manual yesterday...

NO CIMS!?!?!?!?!?! arrgh.... the world has gone mad.

-vivek

EDIT: no cims in the kop but apparently the robot parts says the kop has the chalupas...

The manual says there are 2 sims. arent there any in the kop?

[Drwurm]

but in the simplicity there isn't enough room for incredible innovation and hurts teams in the longer run.

EXACTLY! ARGH! I hated that, this year, it took us all of an hour to exhaust our feasible strategies before we turned to highly eccentric and probably illegal ones. I like being able to weigh a few good options for a couple days. I would have much rather had an overly complex game this year. They're fun to design for and even more fun to whine about.

[enpurx]

All the designs of summer projects have basically gone to waste unless you made a drive train that turns fast.

I'm not that fond of the game itself either, but at least now rookies and veterans are on the same level. This game is atypical enough that the majority of teams will have to start anew. We're all rookies now! :)

[Pavan Dave]

This.

Where did the incredible game designs go from 4+ years ago go? The games are getting a lot more simple for outsiders to understand, but in the simplicity there isn't enough room for incredible innovation and hurts teams in the longer run. All the designs of summer projects have basically gone to waste unless you made a drive train that turns fast. I do enjoy the idea of something new, but when you get down to it, this game can turn out to be another stack attack where whomever can build a robot that can go over the line faster wins.

FIRST is a business. They want more customers so they make it easy to follow. Its that simple.

[smurfgirl]

So... our team's connection dropped as Woodie was introducing the game. We heard "the 2008 game, FIRST..." and it went black and silent. It came back at "good luck!" That was a major disappointment, and we were so confused when "Who Wants to be an Engineer?" came on, because we hadn't seen anything. Besides the initial confusion, here's my reaction to the game (though I'm sure I'll grow to love it more than I can imagine right now) :

Things I don't like:
- no real defensive opportunities (who doesn't love our famous New England defense? I'm going to miss it at the Connecticut Regional this year)
- can only drive counter-clockwise; I feel like the tracklike structure and the rules about obstructions limit your movement and your motion a lot
- game pieces are hard to manipulate- I can't lift the trackball myself because it's too large and slippery for me to wrap my arms around, so how can I expect it to be realistic for the robots to do?
- game pieces are heavy and bouncy; they hit with a lot of force (knocked a team member over earlier) and can potentially cause a lot of damage to a robot if they crash into it
- only four signal choices for the remote in hybrid period- we had sixteen autonomous modes last year, so even though we can now control it as we go, four options feels limiting
- return of weight classes? I saw this one in the inspection sheet, but I haven't seen it in section 8 yet
- success in hybrid period doesn't seem to carry that much weight relative to the scoring in teleoperated period
- you have to drive around in circles so much to be able to score...
- it seems like a lot of potential strategies involve working with the alliance partners, but you never know if that will be possible (what their capabilities are)
- the field is still taller than me... so I can't remove game pieces from the top )':

Things I do like:
- hybrid period instead of autonomous
- spherical playing pieces- I told my team so!
- it's very different from past games, so it should be a real challenge
- it seems like it will foster a lot of teamwork within the alliance
- trained referees! so they will make more fair and more consistent calls... and I won't have to break the rules and start arguing with the head ref (I'm the drive Coach)
- doesn't incorporate a green target light and a camera- the remote control should be pretty cool
- offers a lot of opportunities for changing strategies, and on-the-fly math while I'm coaching

The funny thing is, the list of things I like weighs a lot more heavily with me, even though it's much shorter

[Herodotus]

To be perfectly honest, I don't like it. My main problems with it are as follows.

Too much linearity and repetitiveness. Go straight, turn left, go straight, turn left, go straight, turn left. Will our robots even really need to ever turn right? As I driver I am personally annoyed at this aspect.

Also, I don't like the DRASTIC reduction in defense this year. I think last year had a perfect balance of offense and defense, and it REALLY kept it exciting. It's not fun watching a robot just perform an action, it needs to be confronted and challenged to make it interesting. A robot putting tubes on a rack is not cool, even if thy ring the whole thing. What made it cool was when a robot would put a ring on, while being rammed into by another robot. I mean, we don't need battle bots here, but we do need robot vs robot interaction.

Those are really my main beefs with the game. That said , hate is a strong word. I would simply say I'm not excited by the game itself, but luckily the FIRST organization has many things to offer besides just the game itself. Also, I do like the scoring piece in a sick and twisted way. Those things will be a monster to carry around and will prove to be a fun challenge to overcome. I also like the hybrid period idea.

So, here's to making the best out of the competition. And I have to say I understand the GDC has a tough job, and I can't expect them to always do things the way I would want.

[artdutra04]

Where did the incredible game designs go from 4+ years ago go? The games are getting a lot more simple for outsiders to understand, but in the simplicity there isn't enough room for incredible innovation and hurts teams in the longer run. All the designs of summer projects have basically gone to waste unless you made a drive train that turns fast. I do enjoy the idea of something new, but when you get down to it, this game can turn out to be another stack attack where whomever can build a robot that can go over the line faster wins.While I personally think that the 2004 FIRST Frenzy game was arguably the best FRC game ever, I strongly disagree that games of late has stifled innovation. If anything, the level of sophistication and innovation has only grown over time. With the addition of items like the Kitbot to the KoP and companies like AndyMark, gone are the days when just getting a robot that drove was a major hurdle for some teams.

As an avid fan of Top Gear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear), and with mechanical design being my personal branch of robotics (CS is my second favorite), I really love this game. I loved Triple Play, just because teams could build nice mechanisms and score, score, score without having to really worry about defense. The best defense is a strong offense.

Now this year, not only do we have racing, but now we have rules that encourage us to try cool mechanical designs for manipulating the huge trackballs without worrying that the game will degrade into a defensive pushing match, a la Stack Attack.

[smurfgirl]

I have to say that I feel the overall game is very good with many different levels of complexity for all skill levels.
-Drive around
-Drive around with ball
-Drive around with ball and hurdle
Personally, I kind of wish that one of the balls was on the ground, one in the air incase rookies ever end together or no-one can get a ball off that round, it will be very boring since there isn't going to be any difference and they will just have to sit there and lose.

Other then, I am happy with everything but the 'hybrid' mode. I feel like it does nothing over autonomous and will be abused by teams hoping to make it act like a teli-operated period. I am also slightly worried that these remotes will be unreliable during competition, and teams will be tricked into counting on something that doesn't work. 1 remote well aimed in a workshop will be much different then 6 remote during a competition.

P.S. Doesn't Plexiglas block IR light, meaning that remotes wouldn't work behind the safety shields?

The RoboCoach is operating it, and they have to stand in the RoboCoach stations... which I believe are fenced, not plexiglas.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

If you still think this game is really easy, I suggest you inflate your track ball. You'll quickly realize the enormity of this challenge (literally). Building a manipulator that will be light yet strong enough to hold those balls will be hard.

Also realize that we will have to "catch" these balls after hurdling them. In order to score a hurdle the ball must bounce on the ground - it will then likely bounce away...

As to the excitement of this game I will remain neutral until I see it in action. Although many aspects of this game remind me of the two worst games of all time - 1995 and 2001 (IMO).

[cbale2000]

Well, this game definitely gets the award for "different". I have to say, I liked Aim High a lot, I didn't care much for Rack and Roll, but from what I can tell so far this is probably my least favorite game yet.

Lets see what's changed so far...


No defense, whatsoever. Unless you count knocking down the other teams ball at the end (oh wait, the rules prevent you from going that high, never mind). So you essentially just removed about 1/3 of the potential strategies of a standard FIRST game.
4 game pieces (10 if you count the robots, woopie). Always makes for an interesting match. Of course the fact that they're so huge you can't even get them through a door always helps, whats more fun that just a few balls? How about a few REALLY BIG balls?
You can now use IR remotes to manipulate auton mode, that conveniently any other team can interfere with. It could also potentially be used as another controller telling your robot to turn, go, and so on, so in a way it could make the entire auton (or "hybrid") mode a bit pointless.
Robots this year have to go fast... REALLY fast... in a big circle. I'd almost venture to say it might be more practical just to program you're entire robot to autonomously go around in circles really fast while the everyone just sits back and watches it go around and around (Remind you of any other sport?)
Contact is now a really big deal, and we certainly all need bumpers to withstand the light taps of other robots signaling to go around us. Whatever happened to making a robust machine that is actually designed to withstand impact from game elements and other robots?


Oh well, maybe it has something to do with my enjoyment of shows like robot wars and my hatred towards Nascar (loved that spoof picture of the logo a few pages back btw). I will say it is certainly easy for any team to play a part this year, just build something with wheels any you're all set, but does that make things challenging? What will the media that we are supposed to be getting the attention of think of a bunch of robotic race cars driving in a circle for 2 minutes and 15 seconds (ahh, they even made the matches shorter this year!) while some move huge colored exercise balls around? I certainly know what I would think if I was looking at it from an outsiders perspective.


Anyways, enough ranting from me. There's robots to be built after all, regardless of what the game is, or how much a few people do or don't like it. :o :D


we measured the ball to be roughly 7.4 pounds (or 7.8 pounds), I dont recall. Anyone else get the discrepancy?

I got almost the same thing after inflating ours (about 7.5 lbs), maybe the manual is just playing it safe or compensating for differences in air pressure or altitude or something. :rolleyes:



By the way, whats this I've been hearing about the Cim motors? Did they get rid of some of them or give us different versions or something? Will the small Cims from last few years still be available? (If not we may have to rethink some drivetrain ideas). :(

[663.keith]

Personally, I kind of wish that one of the balls was on the ground, one in the air incase rookies ever end together or no-one can get a ball off that round, it will be very boring since there isn't going to be any difference and they will just have to sit there and lose.

P.S. Doesn't Plexiglas block IR light, meaning that remotes wouldn't work behind the safety shields?

by my interpretation of the rules, a team that doesn't knock their trackballs off during the entire game will actually get 24 points for both of the balls being at the top of the structure at the end of the match. this gives them time to just race around the track and rack up 6 points every lap. Even still, it seems very unlikely that the trackballs will remain on top for the entire game even if no person on one alliance can get them down, this is FIRST, we aren't known for being very docile competitors, and that structure can wiggle!

in response to the P.S: the robocoach stations have a sort of playground grating instead of plexi so that IR can transmit

[Punkk242]

I am very excited about this years game. But i guess i can only say that because i am a huge NASCAR Enthusiast. Driving this year should be a piece of cake - just like martinsville speedway except with big huge bouncy balls.

[Tetraman]

Now this year, not only do we have racing, but now we have rules that encourage us to try cool mechanical designs for manipulating the huge trackballs without worrying that the game will degrade into a defensive pushing match, a la Stack Attack.

My personal opinion, is that Overdrive will be fun and exciting. There is however, the issue that Nascar gets laughed at: six robots performing one motion each for 2 minutes. To me, there is no innovation in waiting for other robots to make mistakes. I realize there will be new technology in drive trains and grips...to that I have no doubt. But it's not like we haven't done that before. And rookie teams only have to make an order off a website for the newest and most powerful assembly, something veterans had to actually build and design which was innovation.

This leads me to say that defense will be huge. Just as big as it was in Rack n' Roll, and similar to Rn'R, no one will find it until the third week of regionals when defense strategy comes to light:

Red alliance with three top scorers and blue with two. Red wins so long as they don't screw up more than four passes. The other blue robot can do a "Stop Go Stop" defense. Stopping in front of an opponent, start the 6 seconds, move out of the way and than get back into the way. This can mess a team's tempo. Being able to keep balls away from opponents will just as big, maybe even bigger.

My personal opinion is that this game, as solid as it is, still lacks something that makes it thrilling to watch over and over again.

[JoeXIII'007]

I am very excited about this years game. But i guess i can only say that because i am a huge NASCAR Enthusiast. Driving this year should be a piece of cake - just like martinsville speedway except with big huge bouncy balls.

On the subject of NASCAR, I think I just had a stroke of genius, not in an idea for a bot, but as far as Dean Kamen's homework is concerned...

With roots as regional entertainment in the Southeastern U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_United_States), NASCAR has grown to become the second-most popular professional sport in terms of television ratings inside the U.S., ranking behind only the National Football League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASCAR#_note-nascar_guide) Internationally, NASCAR races are broadcast in over 150 countries. It holds 17 of the top 20 attended sporting events in the U.S.,1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASCAR#fn_1) and has 75 million fans[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASCAR#_note-nascar_guide) who purchase over $3 billion in annual licensed product sales. These fans are considered the most brand-loyal in all of sports and as a result, Fortune 500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_500) companies sponsor NASCAR more than any other governing body.

Now, despite me disliking NASCAR with great intensity for multiple reasons, I think the potential for public awareness of FIRST with this game is amazing considering the fact that NASCAR has an amazing (for many reasons) fan base.

It is all just a matter of converting enthusiasm for NASCAR to enthusiasm for FIRST. If people start setting up their mobile homes on the lawns and in parking lots near regional events, we've done our job. :D

Simple, though simple, has its many upsides. Enjoy them while they last.

-Joe

[Michael Corsetto]

I was under the assumption that FRC stood for FIRST Robotics Competition. From what I can tell, there's hardly anything robotic about this game at all.

First, they take autonomous mode away and make it "Hybrid" mode, adding essentially limited driver controls to what used to be the programmer's time to shine. Aside from the remote controller, there is no practical use for sensors on the robot, besides standard pot's and such for any manipulators. Any effective autonomous task (ie. race around Track, knock down Trackball) could be easily accomplished with dead reckoning and finding out what position the ball is at via the 4 button remote (I like to call the RoboCoach the "mini-driver"). Although the autonomous mode might be more exciting, it definitely isn't challenging.

Second, as if sensors weren't useless enough, they hold absolutely no advantage in the Teleoperated period. I remember back in 2006 when our robot was capable of tracking the green light and adjusting the pan and tilt of our shooter autonomously and would make the shot almost every time. That was the year where I really saw was robotics was capable of, how a group of high school students could design, build and program a mobile, auto-locking, auto-shooting nerf ball launcher.

Also, contrary to what others have posted about this game reducing the "Drive train arms race" with its lack of defense, I believe it just furthers it. I see no room for innovation in the drivetrain, I don't even see why a 2 speed would be needed. All you need is a high speed, and the more motors in that drivetrain, the better as far as this game is concerned. I remeber seeing drivetrains like 1114's, Simbotics, back in 2004, which had a swivel drive where each individual swivel module was capable of being pnuematically retracted 6 inches upward in order to climb the steps on the field. For the fourth year now, we have an essentially completely flat surface, where teams can just use the kitbot, or even further perfect their 6 wheel design (ie. the "West Coast Drive"), or just rehash any number of other drivetrains used the past 3 years. Just like in the programming aspect of this game, I see no advantage to innovation in the drive systems this year.

All in all, I think FIRST and the GDC took a big step backwards with this year's game, in my opinion dumbing it down to be more "accessible" to new teams and the media, yet leaving experienced teams hanging. Seems like we're all just gonna be building RC cars this year instead of robots :(

Just my $.02,
Mike C.

ps. I don't like the lack of human player either, I enjoyed that aspect of human to robot interaction and I hope it comes back next year.

[Drwurm]

A whole summer project of a 4 speed transmission base. It was supposed to be a super edition west coast drive. USE-LESS.

[Nate Smith]

In the past, FIRST has given a release for copies of the manual to be made for team use. I'd look around and see if this is still the case somewhere in one of the PDF files, if so, that would give you clearance to mirror it in my opinion...

[neoshaakti]

I wish there was more interaction with the other alliance... I liked rack n roll because there was so much defense...
Im not too fond of the track idea...but my focus on strategy keeps my mind away from dwelling over my disappointment

[johnr]

my biggest concern would be how many matches this year where none of the bots can get the balls in play. 1, 2, 3,GO and nobody moved. that sort of thing from last year. also, maybe they should of had a min. weight and size. what i mean is what is the smallest, fastest bot you can build and how many times could bot get around track in two minutes. maybe two of the balls should be on ground to start.

[Diriye]

I am confused about rule <G36> which states that "HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing
ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each
infraction." This would make it impossible to get your trackball from the overpass (which is 6.5 feet tall!) which runs over the other teams HOME STRETCH, can you please tell me what I am missing here?

You don't get points for putting it over your opponents' overpass, only your own. So, there shouldn't be a need to be over 6ft tall in their homestretch.

[Koko Ed]

NASCAR without the wrecks. Yawn......

It's not the worst game, but it doesn't move my WOW-meter.
I bet there will be plenty of wrecks.
The last thing alot of people take into consideration is low COG thus when robots try to take the corner fast - ZING- the robot flips over in a heap. Also when teams to to poke the ball out on the move and don't get their arm down fast enough they're gonna get flipped right over.
Of course all those robot carcases on the fild are goiing to slow down gameplay considerably.

[Koko Ed]

Overdrive will probably end up like Rack n' Roll with me. I hated Rack n' Roll until it got competitive.

The one issue I'm having right now...I'm not sure if I want to sign up for Volunteering for field reset...how many people do you need to reset the field this year? 2?
All they need is Big Mike

[Koko Ed]

I wish there was more interaction with the other alliance... I liked rack n roll because there was so much defense...
Im not too fond of the track idea...but my focus on strategy keeps my mind away from dwelling over my disappointment

What happened at the end of last year in Rack n Roll I wouldn't exactly call defense. More like assault and battery.
I think everyone is selling this game short for defensive possibilities. Sure you can't go the other way but there is more to defense than just smashing your robot against the top offensive robot til it is either on it's side or in pieces. I bet you will see teams poke the ball away and send it bouncing to the far ends of the field thus costing then precious time. Using stalling tactics to make the other bot have to go around costing them time. You will see bumping and you will see people come up with other tactics to slow down the other alliance. Every year people come up wth ways to win the game that's not in the rules but doesn't break the rules. It's called gamesmanship.

[BaldGuy]

Actually rather than poke it would seem to me one the most effective strageies might be to herd you opponents TB's (there I was the first to use this abbreviation!!) and go around the track giving them two points albeit slowly, while someone else on your alliance hurdles....
Thoughts?

[Koko Ed]

Actually rather than poke it would seem to me one the most effective strageies might be to herd you opponents TB's (there I was the first to use this abbreviation!!) and go around the track giving them two points albeit slowly, while someone else on your alliance hurdles....
Thoughts?

Apparently you can "herd" the trackball you just can't "possess" the trackball. What that constitutes is anyones guess. But I gaurntee you you will see people do it. So basically this game is also a bit like soccer.

[skimoose]

I am confused about rule <G36> which states that "HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing
ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each
infraction." This would make it impossible to get your trackball from the overpass (which is 6.5 feet tall!) which runs over the other teams HOME STRETCH, can you please tell me what I am missing here?

This is most likely a game rule error which will be corrected in the game forum soon. Since the game starts with a ball from each alliance on each side of the field a robot MUST be able to reach over 6' to get their own ball off the bridge. Also, the game animation clearly showed that descoring a ball from the bridge was a legal move. Again, robots will need the reach to descore.

I'm sure you'll see a correction in update #1.

If you listened to Woody's game introduction and you think this game is one dimensional, stiffling of creativity, or lacking strategy or defense, you're on the wrong side of fulfillment. Go back and reread the rules and really think about it.

Not to get off topic, but going back to Woody's speech. Did anyone else catch at least a dozen references to myth busting? Could it be that Adam and Jamie (and Tory, Grant & Kari) might grace us with an appearance in Atlanta?!?!? :cool:

[Jonathan Norris]

You don't get points for putting it over your opponents' overpass, only your own. So, there shouldn't be a need to be over 6ft tall in their homestretch.

One of your alliance's balls will start on the opponents overpass... that could come in handy during the game :p. So yes there is a need to go over 6'.

[Hadi379]

What if the purpose of the 6' height limit in the opposing teams area is intentional? Maybe we aren't supposed to be able to knock down our 2nd track ball for use in the game unless the opposing team knocks it down for us. One strategy could be for one alliance to use one trackball to move around the field, while the the opposing alliance trackball stays where it started. At the end of the match, you knock off the opposing teams trackball from your alliances side, therefore not allowing them to score points by having a track ball on the rails. Does this make sens?

[Palbot]

I just thought of this:
Teams that have the capability to do a lot of driver training (read: can build a practice bot) will probably have a bigger advantage this year. Since it's all about speed and control, teams whose drivers have spent many hours on a robot will have an edge.

Think about it this way: Go try to play a challenging driving game like Forza, GT4, or Live For Speed for an hour, and note your times after an hour. Then continue to play it for 20 hours, and see how much better and versatile you've become. That's the kind of training difference you'd probably see in real life as well. A driver that is very familiar with how his/her robot behaves will have a big advantage going into a race like this.
Remember driving in front of the player stations will be much easier than seeing your robot on the opposite side of the field and trying to avoid those five other robots moving fast. Remember "Speed Kills" Slow but steady may win the race!!!!!

[SSMike]

Is it possible to find the test(s) that the refs will be taking to qualify as a referee? This would be to see what they would call most frequently.

[kE7JLM]

Could someone post a link to the manual?



Here it is -
http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=452

[Bongle]

The complaining about a lack of room for innovation doesn't make any sense. A FRC robot from past years probably tops out at 25mph. An electric RC car tops out at 55+mph. Let's call the electric RC car an ideal for a battery-powered teleoperated vehicle. So teams that choose to re-use an old drivetrain will be left with something that can't even do 50% of the ideal.

A 6WD system inherited from past years will be somewhat competitive, but a team that innovates to cut weight and increase handling and speed will probably be able to double the speed of a team just re-using a past drive base.

First, they take autonomous mode away and make it "Hybrid" mode, adding essentially limited driver controls to what used to be the programmer's time to shine. Aside from the remote controller, there is no practical use for sensors on the robot, besides standard pot's and such for any manipulators. Any effective autonomous task (ie. race around Track, knock down Trackball) could be easily accomplished with dead reckoning and finding out what position the ball is at via the 4 button remote (I like to call the RoboCoach the "mini-driver"). Although the autonomous mode might be more exciting, it definitely isn't challenging.
I don't have access to the IR board, but my impression was that it was one-directional, so you would only really be able to talk to your robot when it was pointing at you. In order to complete a full lap, the robot would not be pointing at you for a good half of it.

[Petey]

What if the purpose of the 6' height limit in the opposing teams area is intentional? Maybe we aren't supposed to be able to knock down our 2nd track ball for use in the game unless the opposing team knocks it down for us. One strategy could be for one alliance to use one trackball to move around the field, while the the opposing alliance trackball stays where it started. At the end of the match, you knock off the opposing teams trackball from your alliances side, therefore not allowing them to score points by having a track ball on the rails. Does this make sens?

By jove I think he's got it.

[artdutra04]

Also, contrary to what others have posted about this game reducing the "Drive train arms race" with its lack of defense, I believe it just furthers it. I see no room for innovation in the drivetrain, I don't even see why a 2 speed would be needed. All you need is a high speed, and the more motors in that drivetrain, the better as far as this game is concerned. I remeber seeing drivetrains like 1114's, Simbotics, back in 2004, which had a swivel drive where each individual swivel module was capable of being pnuematically retracted 6 inches upward in order to climb the steps on the field. For the fourth year now, we have an essentially completely flat surface, where teams can just use the kitbot, or even further perfect their 6 wheel design (ie. the "West Coast Drive"), or just rehash any number of other drivetrains used the past 3 years. Just like in the programming aspect of this game, I see no advantage to innovation in the drive systems this year.The team you are referring to from the 2004 season was Wildstang (111); here's a video of their robot:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=233219&postcount=1
A whole summer project of a 4 speed transmission base. It was supposed to be a super edition west coast drive. USE-LESS.No, it was not.

Every team takes a risk when they prototype ideas over the summer, with the expectation that it may not be possible to use that idea during the next build season. While testing an idea that could make it's way onto a future robot is a clear benefit of summer prototyping, the other clear benefit is the knowledge learned along the way.

Also, what's to say that the opportunity to use that transmission in future robots will not present itself next (2009) FRC season? By prototyping a 4-speed transmission over the summer, you've just added yet another mechanism to your team's arsenal of knowledge for the future.

[ccsingle07]

This years game is just ok :rolleyes: , i has hoping for a more competitive game. The racing is very cool :D , but the balls seem more of an after thought.:]

[royal_robotix]

this game seems a lot more simplistic than last year but its a great game. im really excited for actual gameplay.

[Transporter1717]

i too think that the game is just an ok idea. The balls seem to be an afterthought but it will be exciting to see what teams create to score points with the balls. Something like this would be a good idea if it could somehow be modified to throw trackballs and not beer.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/445498/robotic_beer_launching_refrigerator/

[BBnum3]

The team you are referring to from the 2004 season was Wildstang (111); here's a video of their robot:

Actually 1114's robot did what he was talking about. There's a picture of it here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/17474).

[GBIT]

My first edition of this post was probably in error.

Edit:A math proof that the ball should dangle far enough below the rails to be bump-able

given a trackball center at (0,0)
given a trackball contact point with a rail at (16,y) (the rails are 32" apart)
given the trackball is 20" and assuming it remains approximately spherical, then...

x^2 + y^2 = r^2
16^2 + y^2 = 400
y^2 = 400 - 256
y = 12

So the contact point for the rails will be 12" below the center of the ball. This means that between the rails, the bottom of the ball should be 8" below them, and thus 2" below the maximum allowed height of a robot in the opponent zone. However, this is in an ideal world where the rails are infinitely thin and the ball is perfectly sperical. Since the rails are 1.5" wide and the ball will deform some, the ball may be slightly higher than where I computed it to be, and the contact space for a robot will be very, very small.



Umm. Hope not too many people used this number because our team found it to be wrong. We noticed the the equation above used numbers assuming the ball was on center with the pipes. this is not true seeing that the ball rests on the top of the pipes. We found the hang to be (assuming the the 6.5' overpass is on center with the pipes) it would hang only 1.5 inches below the 6' legal limit. If the 6.5' is at the bottom of the pipes it would hang only .67 inches from the 6' limit. this is assuming the the ball in of 40" diameter.

the attachment shows this:

[Arefin Bari]

WHERE ARE THE CIM'S!!!:confused: :eek:
ARE THEY SERIOUS IN NOT GIVING US CIM'S
Can you use ones from last year or can you only use the motors that they give us this year?:ahh:

Calm down.

... before posting here on the forum and go crazy over what's not in the KOP, please please please go through your KOP. You have till Wednesday to tell FIRST what you are missing from the KOP.

Look, also keep in mind that not everyone is going to be happy with the game from this year. Even if you don't like the game, you don't have a choice, you are going to build a robot for "OVERDRIVE." Take it as a challenge, follow the rules and produce a simple/effective machine.

[Boothy180]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/nascar_coach_reveals_winning

yeah, that pretty much sums up my feelings

[JaneYoung]

If you listened to Woody's game introduction and you think this game is one dimensional, stiffling of creativity, or lacking strategy or defense, you're on the wrong side of fulfillment. Go back and reread the rules and really think about it.



Well, it took a few pages but I finally got to read a post that I understand. :)

This is a shift in thinking. I have no doubt that the GDC has tremendous respect for the teams and the innovative and incredible designs that are going to come into play in this year's game.

Defense does not necessarily have to be about bashing robots - it can be about how you play the game. I've read many posts referring to Nascar. There is a lot of strategy, a lot of work that goes into racing those cars. It isn't just getting in the car and putting the pedal to the medal. We have a race involving robots and very big balls that may or may not respond the way you hope they will or plan for them to.

How the alliances work together is thought provoking regarding what they will choose to design/build and what they won't - what the options/opportunities will be.

In my mind this is a multi-layered competition that can be simple or complex - again - with tons of strategy involved. Offense and defense is there, it is just different. It will be amazing to see how it is played out this season.

I also think that this is great eye candy for viewers and the media. Beautiful.

[Laaba 80]

I also think that this is great eye candy for viewers and the media. Beautiful.
It will, but I personally like the balls from Aim High flying around better.
Joey

[VEN]

I think this is a whole new beginning for FRC. It may seem easy but you have to start low in order to be able to move up. Next thing you know, our robots will have to guide themselves through a maze in order to get to the arena to play the actual game or complete a task.

[Koko Ed]

To those who say the game is "easy". If it's easy to you it's easy to your opponents too. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) you are not competing against the game but against your opponent and if you don't get your head in the game your opponent will be running circles around you literally.

[Enigma's puzzle]

I believe everyone isn't being open minded enough to game. This game seems to level the field for rookies that try to speed around the field. BUT
How many teams will be able to go around the track 3 times before a team can hurdle the overpass? few
Add the congestion of all 5 other robots going at different speeds and not nessicarily giving adiquit room to pass? becomes more complicated quickly
But achieving a lap in hybrid mode might be the turning point coming into teleoperated with a huge lead and i forsee that as the only way to win by only running laps
Hurdling is going to be the turning point (you can qoute that)