View Full Version : Best Way to Get Points
What do you think is the best way to get points in this year's game? Also what are going to be the hardest/easiest ways to score and which ways will be most important to winning a match?
Personally I think that the best way would be to get points from hurdling the overpass.
Hardest: Placing the trackballs on top of the overpass at the end
Easiest: Driving around and crossing the lines
Most Important: Hybrid mode
Points and ways to score are on page 6 of Section 7 of the manual. If someone could post a link to it, it would be appreciated because my computers being wierd adn not letting me. Also if this belongs in the rules/strategy section could a mod please move it? Thanks.
--Mike
I do believe that the best robots will be hurdlers.
Laaba 80
06-01-2008, 16:59
I think the hardest part will be picking up the ball, not sure about the others though.
Here is the link to the manual http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=452
You just need to click on "the game".
Joey
cziggy343
06-01-2008, 17:01
yes. the best robots will be very quick hurdlers, and the most important score would be that of getting the 12, or potentially 24, points by placing the ball back on the overpass.
im pretty excited. this game takes a lot of strategy and a lot will go on in one match:]
An engine, 4 wheels, shocks and bumpers is all you need.
Seeing as you're not really allowed to block (I believe 'interfere' was the word) someone trying to hurdle a trackball, I think that the emphasis will be on hurdling the trackball fast. The most important will be the hybrid mode though. The way I figure, you can get 8 easy points per robot with only dead reckoning, let alone by controlling the robot with a remote.
Hybrid mode will definantly be the key because you can get so many more points for relatively simple things if you do them in hybrid mode instead of the teleoperated mode. Teams will win so many games that way.
Tottanka
06-01-2008, 17:15
Hybrid mode will definantly be the key because you can get so many more points for relatively simple things if you do them in hybrid mode instead of the teleoperated mode. Teams will win so many games that way.
I disagree.
This year almost all teams will have some kind of an autnomous, which will score a minimum of 4 points and probabl even 8 points very easily. The better robots will be able to get 16-20 points only by crossing.
The real good once might get even 36 points for one robot per automode ( 2 ball drops, 5 line crosses).
The difference in the hybrid is not going to be that big, if you count most robots as average - 20 point scorers.
I believe that there will be some intense late game action with placing theballs on the overpass, as they are rather hard to put up, but easy to nock down. (might be just like this 2007's late spoilers/lifts/8th tubes in a row).
Enigma's puzzle
06-01-2008, 17:16
I belive that hurdling will be crutial because it is the equivilant of four laps or 2 laps with the ball. going faster thaan everyone else is going to lead to problems in congestion and passing.
I am forseeing problems with congestion around the finish lines with the overpass being hurdled
The best method would be simply racing around if the track was empty, but there's going to be 5 other robots and 4 balls. Though hurdling gives you loads of points, it will only be effective if you can do it fast and reliably. I think, unless you've got a killer method of hurdling, simply pushing the ball around would be most effective.
Uberbots
06-01-2008, 18:43
Working through it, hurdling turns out to be one of the major point getters in the teleoperated period, but it is an incredibly complex process. it is the major challenge with this game to take control of this excessively bulky object.
I think though, that hurdling alone will not be what wins the match. it could, but if we start seeing some teamwork and collaboration between alliance members, the strategies may be what wins over the brute strength (it usually is). for example, if you can get a system where your alliance finds a way to pass the ball over the wall and over the overpass in quick succession, then it would eliminate the need to drive and the points would rack up like crazy.
thats just a simple strategy with obvious flaws, but its apparent how a strategy like that may be used to overcome brute scoring power.
our team decided that
hybrid:
1. knock down ball from overpass
2. do laps
teleoperated:
1. hurdle lots
2. maybe try to put ball back on...
-vivek
Dizzy_Lizzy
06-01-2008, 19:11
Hurdling the ball will be the most valuable way to score but gwtting the trackball around ad over the finish line as well as the robot could also be good if it could be done very quickly and solidly.
Cow Bell Solo
06-01-2008, 20:42
Today our team discussed what would be more effective for scoring points.
It seemed like we would go for hurdling the trackball and during hybrid be able to knock at least one and possibly two trackballs so then you also are crossing 3 lines
If a hurdle is performed, the alliance gets 8 pnts. If the robot then follows up by crossing the line, the team gains another 2 for a total of 10. To match this one hurdle and follow up, a robot would need to rotate the track 5 times or push a trackball around 2ish times. Even with the issue of the time it may take to hurdle, it seems like hurdling is a much more attractive option for the teleoperated 2 minutes.
Doug Leppard
06-01-2008, 21:16
If you want a bot that wins especially a regional. then you will need a complete package, hybrid and hurdle,
thefro526
06-01-2008, 21:22
I think that a good robot is going to need speed and the ability to hurdle balls. Personally I'd like to use a two-speed transmission with a ~15 fps high speed a 7fps low speed. 7fps would still be fast and stable enough to carry a track ball and 15fps is way more than enough to make quick laps around the feel while still remaining turnable
Doug Leppard
06-01-2008, 21:28
I think that a good robot is going to need speed and the ability to hurdle balls. Personally I'd like to use a two-speed transmission with a ~15 fps high speed a 7fps low speed. 7fps would still be fast and stable enough to carry a track ball and 15fps is way more than enough to make quick laps around the feel while still remaining turnable
Wow that seems fast. Have you ever had a robot that went 15fps?
waialua359
06-01-2008, 21:30
If a hurdle is performed, the alliance gets 8 pnts. If the robot then follows up by crossing the line, the team gains another 2 for a total of 10. To match this one hurdle and follow up, a robot would need to rotate the track 5 times or push a trackball around 2ish times. Even with the issue of the time it may take to hurdle, it seems like hurdling is a much more attractive option for the teleoperated 2 minutes.
I totally agree with this statement.
Role playing with a squarebot that simply pushes balls or spins around the field are no where nearly as effective as hurdling + passing overpass line combo.
Daniel_LaFleur
06-01-2008, 21:37
Wow that seems fast. Have you ever had a robot that went 15fps?
I believe that you will see bots going faster than that ... but not successfully.
I believe that you will see bots going faster than that ... but not successfully.
Yeah I agree with you there. Despite the numerous rules that try to limit contact, I forsee many teams attempting to go as fast as possible around the track and most will eventually bump into something.
thefro526
06-01-2008, 21:47
Originally Posted by thefro526 View Post
I think that a good robot is going to need speed and the ability to hurdle balls. Personally I'd like to use a two-speed transmission with a ~15 fps high speed a 7fps low speed. 7fps would still be fast and stable enough to carry a track ball and 15fps is way more than enough to make quick laps around the feel while still remaining turnable
Wow that seems fast. Have you ever had a robot that went 15fps?
No fastest I've ever driven a robot is like 12 or 13 fps. I know its theoretically possible and it would only be driven at 15fps high speed for short bursts in strait lines. The turns would probably be taken at the 7 Fps low speed or lower.
IbleedPink233
06-01-2008, 21:50
My team was at first wanting to get screaming speeds like 15 fps, but we realized that we would also need maximum maneuverability, so we quickly toned it down.
Hurdling is going to end up being the dominating strategy - I don't see an alliance of three bots who rely on doing a bunch of laps winning a regional.
Cow Bell Solo
06-01-2008, 22:00
If a hurdle is performed, the alliance gets 8 pnts. If the robot then follows up by crossing the line, the team gains another 2 for a total of 10. To match this one hurdle and follow up, a robot would need to rotate the track 5 times or push a trackball around 2ish times. Even with the issue of the time it may take to hurdle, it seems like hurdling is a much more attractive option for the teleoperated 2 minutes.
That is incorrect.
You get 6 pts for hurdling the trackball over and then 2pts for crossing the finish line.
Look at <G18> in Section 7 of the Manual - The Game
That is incorrect. You get 6 pts for hurdling the trackball over and then 2pts for crossing the finish line. Look at <G18> in Section 7 of the Manual - The Game
<G11> Each TRACKBALL that HURDLES its own FINISH LINE will earn 8 points (2 points for CROSSING the FINISH LINE – re Rule <G10> - and a 6 point bonus, yielding 8 points total).
A hurdled ball is worth 8 points, regardless of what the hurdling robot does afterwards.
I think people are underestimating how hard hurdling one of the track balls will be. First off, keep in mind that these balls seem to be considerably heavier than any other "big balls" from past games. I don't remember any exact weights, but I recall being able to pick up the balls from 2004 and 2001 fairly easily. Second, as I see it hurdling involves three major steps:
1. Gaining control of the ball
Assuming the ball was just hurdled, it will take several seconds to stop bouncing around after falling 6+ feet
2. carrying it around the track back to your alliance's hurdle
<G13> A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again.
Under the previous assumption, this involves completing almost an entire lap
3. Passing the ball over the hurdle
Either throwing it over (which I am still not convinced is a viable solution) or reaching it over and dropping it on the other side
That being said, I do thing hurdling will be the most important part of the game. I think the most successful alliance will be three hurdlers in a hurdling rotation. Bot1 hurdles a ball, which bot 2 picks up and brings back around the track. Bot1 then goes under the hurdle, and prepares to pick up the other ball, which bot3 is bringing around the track.
Torboticsmember
06-01-2008, 22:06
Our team will probably go for hurdling the track ball, then have some back up plan I hope. But it seems that if you can hurdle the ball well you will be able to rack up some points
Daniel_LaFleur
06-01-2008, 22:12
This is just for the trackball hurdled:
<G11> Each TRACKBALL that HURDLES its own FINISH LINE will earn 8 points (2 points for
CROSSING the FINISH LINE – re Rule <G10> - and a 6 point bonus, yielding 8 points
total).
The above does not include the 2 points for a robot crossing it's own finish line.
With all the traffic out there, I am not so sure this will be at all easy ;)
GBilletdeaux930
06-01-2008, 22:18
Ok so hurdling the ball, at first glance, sounds like a good idea... but balls do bounce...and this ball inperticular bounces about 4 feet when dropped from 6 1/2 feet which i would think is roughly the high point of a ball going over the bar.
i have a post going about bouncing track balls and trying to formulate ideas on how to regain control here http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60890
so unless a method of regaining control is found... it might be easier to get points a different way...
With all the traffic out there, I am not so sure this will be at all easy ;)
^ Understatement of the year
From what I have seen most people are concentrating on how hard it will be to pick up the trackballs. But what about when you have already done that. Depending on how a robot is built, 10 lbs. in the wrong place could cause the robot to tip over. To make this worse, the robot would now be impeding traffic. Even if you don't tip over, you could possibly drop it from unintentional bumping. If this happened, as Jake said above, how long will it take to recapture a trackball after it has fallen (and stopped bouncing). It may even cross the finish line, meaning you would have to bring it around the track before you could hurdle it. Just my take on it.
nuggetsyl
06-01-2008, 22:21
It seems to me that a lot of people posting on this thread thinks it will be easy to pick up and put the ball over the overpass. The ball is slick, if you drop the ball just once you will have wasted a lot of time and will not be able to make up the points of 2 robots pushing balls around the track and one driving around.
7 laps with ball 28points
3 over bar 3 laps 30 points
kjohnson
06-01-2008, 22:22
With all the traffic out there, I am not so sure this will be at all easy ;)
As long as the bot doing the hurdling stays to one side of the track when actually lifting the ball above the overpass, they should not be obstructed by the opposing alliance. As I understand it, the bump to pass rule is to be used if your bot is blocking travel, but if you are to the extreme side of the lane then supposedly you should not be bothered...
GBilletdeaux930
06-01-2008, 22:29
7 laps with ball 28points
3 over bar 3 laps 30 points
Considering this...it might still be more points if u hurdeled the ball even with regaining control... because its so early...i think we might be overestimating how many times we could go around the track with a ball
Last year for a majority of the matches...u were only able to get 2-3 tubes up and u were lucky if they were in a row...it all came down to the end (atleast during the regionals)
So what if people arnt able to keep control of a ball often enough to go around 7 times... the 3 up and over is sounding good IF you are able to get the ball with it bouncing off walls and on/off robots
Defense is starting to sound like making a clear path for the ball to bounce now instead of keeping the other team from going around...
nuggetsyl
06-01-2008, 22:34
Considering this...it might still be more points if u hurdeled the ball even with regaining control... because its so early...i think we might be overestimating how many times we could go around the track with a ball
Last year for a majority of the matches...u were only able to get 2-3 tubes up and u were lucky if they were in a row...it all came down to the end (atleast during the regionals)
So what if people arnt able to keep control of a ball often enough to go around 7 times... the 3 up and over is sounding good IF you are able to get the ball with it bouncing off walls and on/off robots
Defense is starting to sound like making a clear path for the ball to bounce now instead of keeping the other team from going around...
7 laps 17 sec a lap no lifting or grabing required no tossing or placing over bar.
GBilletdeaux930
06-01-2008, 22:42
7 laps 17 sec a lap no lifting or grabing required no tossing or placing over bar.
That 17 seconds, is that estimated? Is there like a certain speed/mobility you used or did yall just run around the track at an estimated speed trying to gain an "about" number... cause that 17 seconds leaves a .058 second for any error...
if that is a really fast robot... then yea that doesnt even account for robots in the way...
7 laps 17 sec a lap no lifting or grabing required no tossing or placing over bar.
Remember, to get 4 points by moving the ball around the track, you have not be touching the ball when it crosses the line, and regain control after.
Tim Delles
06-01-2008, 23:14
That 17 seconds, is that estimated? Is there like a certain speed/mobility you used or did yall just run around the track at an estimated speed trying to gain an "about" number... cause that 17 seconds leaves a .058 second for any error...
if that is a really fast robot... then yea that doesnt even account for robots in the way...
actually it is a pretty good number..
50 feet is the distance of one entire side.. now you have to cover 2 sides.. So the total distance is 100 feet. And now saying you are going end to end and making also a 10 ft sideways movement each lap that is a total of 120 feet.
An team should be able to average 8 ft/s.
This actual results in a time of 15 secs...
The numbers they used seem to me to be at an average speed of 7ft/s which would result in 17.1 secs for a lap.
As long as the bot doing the hurdling stays to one side of the track when actually lifting the ball above the overpass, they should not be obstructed by the opposing alliance. As I understand it, the bump to pass rule is to be used if your bot is blocking travel, but if you are to the extreme side of the lane then supposedly you should not be bothered...
Hurdling robots have protection unless there is no clear lane. Admittedly they can get incidental contact still.
Seeing as you're not really allowed to block (I believe 'interfere' was the word) someone trying to hurdle a trackball, I think that the emphasis will be on hurdling the trackball fast. The most important will be the hybrid mode though. The way I figure, you can get 8 easy points per robot with only dead reckoning, let alone by controlling the robot with a remote.
I do believe that section 6.2.2 of the game manual indicates that your alliance's TRACKBALL is going to be placed randomly in one of three predictable positions on the overpass.
I also do believe that the ROBOCOACH can tell the robot which of the three positions to travel to and knock the TRACKBALL off during the hybrid mode.
I do believe that this method is more accurate than dead reckoning - not saying that dead reckoning wont work - it might score points for the other alliance though :(
I forsee the best alliance this year being a combo group, with no more than two hurdlers, and the other bots being designed more for lap speed and ball herding. No hurdlers on an alliance seems rather low scoring, but an all hurdler group I think will find they've got a rather worthless lap runner in their non-ball possessing member.
There's only two balls, so if you have two hurdlers on your alliance, the third robot either needs to be running more laps for points, getting in the opposition's way, or helping to rebound balls for the hurdlers.
jdejoannis
07-01-2008, 01:14
Hurdlers will probably be the dominant species in Atlanta. But a few good speedybots would be complementary during both the hybrid and tele periods.
/Jason
idahorobot
07-01-2008, 01:44
You have to have speders for the hurdlers to score. The trackball has to come around.
Bob Steele
07-01-2008, 02:41
Here is an interesting scenario:
Two robots work together... One passing the ball over the overpass to the alliance partner on the other side and then slipping underneath to wait for that robot to come around and do the same...
This would be like a relay... and the ball would not have to be re-acquired after bouncing... these robots would extend up to pass and then bring the ball back down to travel around the field.
They could also work in pairs using the one without the ball to clear a path for the other as they travel around. Each successful team hurdle would generate 12 points this way...and the ball would never hit the ground. Both robots would get 2 points for making a lap and the 8 for the hurdle.
The hurdle would be legal as the ball would leave the hurdling robot grasp and then touch another robot (the partner robot) allowing the full 6 + 2 scoring.
This would require robots to cooperate... which is a good thing...
Teams may want to start thinking along these lines early in the process.
We will see this in Atlanta... I am certain of that...
If not 2 robots passing directly, certainly myriad other ways of cooperating on the field in one way or another.
It would be wise for teams to consider this type of activity early in their design process.
This is going to be a great year to think about alliances as true teams.
Not just having defined roles which are carried out independently but actually designing to score points together.
We saw our first taste of that last year with the lift points...this year it will be for the entire teleoperated period...
GOOD LUCK TO ALL TEAMS!!
We hope to work with you this year!!!
feliks_rosenber
07-01-2008, 04:43
In my opinion the best way to generate points this year will be by defining each team's role and acting accordingly.
Since there are 2 balls and 3 robots, I suppose that 2 robots will be crossing the lines with balls in the possesion and the third team will either help them knock down balls during the hybrid/ put back up on the track in the end or just do as many laps as possible.
I think that the latter option is way better because last year you couldn't score points for just driving fast, this time, however, you can and so teams should benefit from that.
Daniel_LaFleur
07-01-2008, 05:37
7 laps 17 sec a lap no lifting or grabing required no tossing or placing over bar.
17 seconds a lap?
Remember:
<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points. A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE which contacts ROBOTS of both ALLIANCES while CROSSING will earn
2 points.
This means that you will need to release the ball before the finish line and then re aquire it after the finish line. I doubt, very much, with all the traffic and such that that will be an easy task ;)
feliks_rosenber
07-01-2008, 05:50
This means that you will need to release the ball before the finish line and then re aquire it after the finish line. I doubt, very much, with all the traffic and such that that will be an easy tas
You can grab the ball and have it in possession while making laps.
You don't have to hurdle it although of course hurdling gives more points.
Daniel_LaFleur
07-01-2008, 05:52
You can grab the ball and have it in possession while making laps.
You don't have to hurdle it although of course hurdling gives more points.
Yes you can do your lap with it in your possession, but look at <G10> in my previous post ... you will need to release it and not be touching it as it crosses the finish line or it won't count.
where are you getting all the track balls?
there might be one on the field after hybrid mode. your opponent wont give you a second one. so three hurdling bots on one alliance are all trying to hurdle one ball.
if the opponent is driving three race cars around the track, they outscore you by almost 3 to one.
which of 3 teams gets the honor to hurdle the ball?
jerry w
LionMane250
09-01-2008, 13:22
i dont know what your mock-up team is strategy is but, ours is based on a defensive strategy. we herd the trackballs and play defense, nothing more
Tom Line
09-01-2008, 13:26
Reading through these posts got me to thinking. If a team were playing simply to "win", knocking over an opponent trying to hurdle would be well worth the 10 point penalty that it would incur.
I'm wondering if perhaps they shouldn't increase the penalty for this infraction. Knock one of their hurdlers over, even unintentionally, and you odds of winning increase astronomically, even with a measly 10 point pen.
Reading through these posts got me to thinking. If a team were playing simply to "win", knocking over an opponent trying to hurdle would be well worth the 10 point penalty that it would incur.
I'm wondering if perhaps they shouldn't increase the penalty for this infraction. Knock one of their hurdlers over, even unintentionally, and you odds of winning increase astronomically, even with a measly 10 point pen.
Intentionally knocking over a robot will almost assuredly result in disqualification.
This means that you will need to release the ball before the finish line and then re aquire it after the finish line. I doubt, very much, with all the traffic and such that that will be an easy task ;)
If your robot's traveling at 10 ft/s -- a reasonable number, I think -- you need only release the ball for .5 seconds. That's not so bad.
kjohnson
09-01-2008, 13:40
Hurdling robots have protection unless there is no clear lane. Admittedly they can get incidental contact still.
I wonder if we will see penalties this year for contact while a bot is hurdling and there still an open lane?
Tom Line
09-01-2008, 13:48
I wonder if we will see penalties this year for contact while a bot is hurdling and there still an open lane?
I love your signature nukemknight. Last year in the end-of-year invitational we were up against a poorly balanced robot. They were defending us and when they went from backwards to forwards quickly their front end would lift off the ground 6-8 inches.
They did this to us several times - the end result was our bot was disabled by the end of the match - radio receiver shatter, air system destroyed, electrical board guarding broken off. And no pen given.
Please note afterwards they apologized and showed gracious professionalism in the extreme - they offered to help work on the robot, etc etc. But I enjoy the battlebot comment.
Intentionally knocking over a robot will almost assuredly result in disqualification.Not last year...I can think of one case on Curie where a robot got a 10-pointer and a "fix the robot" warning. That said, the ref certification course should solve the inconsistency issue, so that won't happen again.
kjohnson
09-01-2008, 15:20
I love your signature nukemknight. Last year in the end-of-year invitational we were up against a poorly balanced robot. They were defending us and when they went from backwards to forwards quickly their front end would lift off the ground 6-8 inches.
They did this to us several times - the end result was our bot was disabled by the end of the match - radio receiver shatter, air system destroyed, electrical board guarding broken off. And no pen given.
I'm not sure exactly what stemmed the rule change after the first weekend of regionals in 2005, but I have a feeling that it was the intentional tipping that happened at VCU in the tournament. 616 was tipped by 539 in the semi-finals, then 539 also tipped 401 (I think) in the finals. There was nothing that could be done about it at the time because there was no such penalty.
Not last year...I can think of one case on Curie where a robot got a 10-pointer and a "fix the robot" warning. That said, the ref certification course should solve the inconsistency issue, so that won't happen again.
That cert course is what I have been looking for since I joined FIRST in 2004. If this course for the refs doesn't fix the problem, what other options does FIRST have to ensure fairness?
Intentionally knocking over a robot will almost assuredly result in disqualification.
Not only that, it would cause the robot to partially obstruct the lane and could cause a lot of substantial robot to that robot. Plus its not the best show of GP.
That cert course is what I have been looking for since I joined FIRST in 2004. If this course for the refs doesn't fix the problem, what other options does FIRST have to ensure fairness?
People have complained forever about the calls that refs have made and will always do so any time there is a competition for anything. I umpire baseball and can understand the position of refs. I believe this statement sums competition up perfectly: You can please half the people 100% of the time but never 100% of the people 100% of the time. Someone's always going to be unhappy with a call. I think that the certification test will help standardize calls and make them as good as possible. Honestly, I think that the refs in my years in FIRST have done a very good job. Also, remember they are only human.
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