rule question on scoring above overpass

[Robo_Coyote]

my idea is that it would be fast when trying to score, to place the ball on the overpass, then drive under and retrieve it from the top of the overpass. I think this will be easier than trying to track the bouncing ball back down. Does anyone see anything questionable about this rule wise?

[Billfred]

my idea is that it would be fast when trying to score, to place the ball on the overpass, then drive under and retrieve it from the top of the overpass. I think this will be easier than trying to track the bouncing ball back down. Does anyone see anything questionable about this rule wise?
From the manual (which is quality reading, lemme tell you), emphasis mine:

HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS
and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

[Elgin Clock]

I suppose it would help you a bit if the action you described was an allowable form of hurdling. From the manual (which is quality reading, lemme tell you), emphasis mine:

Thanks Billfred. I had heard a rule about touching the Trackball existed, and was reading up on it, but couldn't find it.

Thanks for that manual quote. :)

[GaryVoshol]

But, while the trackball is sitting on the overpass it hasn't yet CROSSED. So is the second-touch rule in effect yet?

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.

You also run into rule G22. If you reach back to grab the ball, you'll be crossing the line in the clockwise direction.

[jerry w]

But, while the trackball is sitting on the overpass it hasn't yet CROSSED. So is the second-touch rule in effect yet?

this is very tricky.
because your trackball is now resting on the overpass, part of the ball extends past the finish line. if you now dislodge the ball, using your robot then you get no points, since you are touching the ball while it is crossing the line.
you get no 2-point score nor the 6-point bonus. however, if you pull the ball back from the overpass, and then hurdle the ball correctly, the score should be given.

jerry w

[GaryVoshol]

this is very tricky.
because your trackball is now resting on the overpass, part of the ball extends past the finish line. if you now dislodge the ball, using your robot then you get no points, since you are touching the ball while it is crossing the line.
you get no 2-point score nor the 6-point bonus. however, if you pull the ball back from the overpass, and then hurdle the ball correctly, the score should be given.

jerry w

And that's another question. Does the rule prohibiting touching the ball as it crosses the line apply to hurdling?

[Sunshine]

And that's another question. Does the rule prohibiting touching the ball as it crosses the line apply to hurdling?

I believe you are allowed to be touching the ball during hurdling. I also believe that will a clarifying update from FIRST explaining this. Lots of threads on this site asking the same question.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

I believe you are allowed to be touching the ball during hurdling. I also believe that will a clarifying update from FIRST explaining this. Lots of threads on this site asking the same question.

I do not believe that you will score if you are touching the ball while hurdling. The reason is that 2 points are scored because the ball passes the line with a 6 point bonus for being over the bar. Since the ball was being touched while crossing the line, there would be no point for crossing the line and and as such no bonus points either.

[Sunshine]

Yea Dan,

I saw your post and reasoning on other threads. I guess only time will tell who is right :p :D

I believe your logic is correct for going under BUT not for going over.

If I knew that I would see you in Atlanta :ahh: I'd put a friendly wager on it:]

[Dominicano0519]

You also run into rule G22. If you reach back to grab the ball, you'll be crossing the line in the clockwise direction.



um you can definitely work around that just make you manipulator work above your robot

i.e. put the ball on the over pass

and move foward ( cross the line for two points yessssss!!!!!!!! more points) and reach back w/o moving your entire robot back

[Andrew Bates]

So at what point do you actually have to release the ball?

[Tom Line]

I suspect you are doing gyrations that are not necessary. As someone else said, we need clarification from First.

1. Can you touch the ball while hurdling it through the start/finish plane
2. Can you break the plane from the non-home stretch side of the field with your gripper to knock the ball off in hybrid

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Yea Dan,

I saw your post and reasoning on other threads. I guess only time will tell who is right :p :D

I believe your logic is correct for going under BUT not for going over.

If I knew that I would see you in Atlanta :ahh: I'd put a friendly wager on it:]

hehe.

If we make it to Atlanta (we'd need to win the BAE GSR) I'll take that friendly wager ... say a box of Krispy Kremes? (**Hey Dave, I'd split 'em with you :D **)

[tbd]

We have a simmilar dilemma:
What actually is considered a hurdle?

i.e. put the ball on the over pass

and move foward ( cross the line for two points yessssss!!!!!!!! more points) and reach back w/o moving your entire robot back

^ is that really a possibility? Is putting the trackball on the overpass and just pushing it off again considered a hurdle? Can the ball even touch the overpass when its hurdled?
And then ofcourse can you touch the ball during the hurdling?

[redbarron]

I think the robot cannot be touching the trackball at any point while the trackball breaks the plane of the line. Therefore when the ball is on top it has been touched while entering and leaving the plane if it is sat up there then grabbed off.

[JesseK]

bah, nvm, I see the big conflict.

Keep in mind they mean for a CROSS to have a vertical projection, e.g. from a bounce or from launching it. No matter how I twist this in my head it seems the grey area is whether or not the "vertical projection" must happen before the trackball breaks the plane of the finish line or if it is still scorable to give the ball a vertical projection after it breaks the plane but before it has fulled CROSSED.

[ALIBI]

The rules seem to indicate that you must let go (not be in contact with) the trackball sometime before, during or after it completely crosses the finish line once you do whatever it is you do to get it over and to count it must touch either the floor or another robot before you touch it again.

When the trackball is completely past the finish line, if you have not all ready let go of it, you must do so now. Then, before you touch it again, it must touch either the floor or another robot.

[EricH]

um you can definitely work around that just make you manipulator work above your robot

i.e. put the ball on the over pass

and move foward ( cross the line for two points yessssss!!!!!!!! more points) and reach back w/o moving your entire robot back
...And have a 10-point penalty for re-crossing the line (breaking the plane is counted as re-crossing), giving you a score of zero for the maneuver and a loss of time as you must go around again.

[Sunshine]

hehe.

If we make it to Atlanta (we'd need to win the BAE GSR) I'll take that friendly wager ... say a box of Krispy Kremes? (**Hey Dave, I'd split 'em with you :D **)

You've got it Dan :cool: :cool: Let's monitor this thread to see who was right
:yikes: :yikes:

[Sunshine]

Hey Dan!

This just in from FIRST and the very FIRST Team Update.......

Section 7 – The Game
Section 7 – The Game has been updated as follows: Rule <G36> has been removed. There is no longer a height restriction in an
opponent’s homestretch. The reference to Rule <G10> has been deleted from Rule <G11>. Robot contact with a trackball while hurdling is permitted, however a trackball passing under the Overpass and across the finish line must not be in contact with a Robot, per Rule <G10>.

I like chocolate Krispy Kremes :D :D :D

[dlavery]

hehe.

If we make it to Atlanta (we'd need to win the BAE GSR) I'll take that friendly wager ... say a box of Krispy Kremes? (**Hey Dave, I'd split 'em with you :D **)

I will be waiting for my half-dozen in Atlanta... :)


-dave

[Sunshine]

I will be waiting for my half-dozen in Atlanta... :)


-dave

I'll be happy to share my bounty with you Dave. It'll be a privilege

[Kellen Hill]

With the updated rule, can you stay in complete possession of the ball while putting it over the overpass? Could you do that and just have the ball touch the ground or another robot before doing it again?

By complete possession i mean putting it over and catching it on the other side without letting it hit the ground.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Hey Dan!

This just in from FIRST and the very FIRST Team Update.......

Section 7 – The Game
Section 7 – The Game has been updated as follows: Rule <G36> has been removed. There is no longer a height restriction in an
opponent’s homestretch. The reference to Rule <G10> has been deleted from Rule <G11>. Robot contact with a trackball while hurdling is permitted, however a trackball passing under the Overpass and across the finish line must not be in contact with a Robot, per Rule <G10>.

I like chocolate Krispy Kremes :D :D :D


Chocolate Krispy Kremes it is ... Now to make it to Atlanta.

[ALIBI]

HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

Deleting the Ref. to R10 from R11 means you can stay in contact with the ball while hurdling. Looking at the definition of Hurdle am I right to state the following:

The definition says to be a hurdle, the trackball must contact the floor or another robot before re-contacting the originating robot, you still have to let go of the trackball before, during or after the trackball completely crosses the plane of the finish line to count, it is just that now you do not have to be concerned about when you let it go (penalty/point wise). EDIT: you can not have the trackball completely pass the finish line, pull it back into you home stretch, drop the ball on the floor and quickly regain control, provided your robot doesn't completely enter the next quad.

And I have another question:

Lets say that my trackball passes my opponents finish line and somehow or another moves clockwise back into the quad between the home stretches, as long as I do not break the plane of the finish line, can I hurdle in a cockwise direction and then say have an alliance partner place the trackball on the overpass from my home stretch?

[Sunshine]

HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

Deleting the Ref. to R10 from R11 means you can stay in contact with the ball while hurdling. Looking at the definition of Hurdle am I right to state the following:

The definition says to be a hurdle, the trackball must contact the floor or another robot before re-contacting the originating robot, you still have to let go of the trackball before, during or after the trackball completely crosses the plane of the finish line to count, it is just that now you do not have to be concerned about when you let it go (penalty/point wise).

And I have another question:

Lets say that my trackball passes my opponents finish line and somehow or another moves clockwise back into the quad between the home stretches, as long as I do not break the plane of the finish line, can I hurdle in a cockwise direction and then say have an alliance partner place the trackball on the overpass from my home stretch?

I believe that the spirit of the rule indicates that your first scenario is correct.

In your second scenerio ....... ya' you can do it but without getting points so why bother. Of course, you'd get the points at the end of the match if that is your intent ......... hmmmmm more checking needs to be done :ahh: :ahh:

[meaubry]

Do the rules indicate if the scored trak ball (either under or over) cannot be scored again, prior to going around again?

I don't recall reading that - and the way the balls bounce around, it might be difficult to remember if a ball had bounced clockwise - (opposite direction, backwards into the neighboring quadrant) -after it had previously scored.

If it is okay to pick up and score a trak ball that has bounced backwards - It would increase the opportunity for higher scores.

I guess I'd better start re-reading those parts of the rules one more time.

[jediptm]

We have a simmilar dilemma:
What actually is considered a hurdle?



^ is that really a possibility? Is putting the trackball on the overpass and just pushing it off again considered a hurdle? Can the ball even touch the overpass when its hurdled?
And then ofcourse can you touch the ball during the hurdling?

Based on the definition from the rules:
HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

Above would seem to me to mean you can't set the ball on the overpass, then knock it off. When you add this to the scoring chart that says you get 0 points for knocking a ball off the overpass during the teleoperated period, I am pretty confident this would not count as a hurdle.

[jediptm]

Do the rules indicate if the scored trak ball (either under or over) cannot be scored again, prior to going around again?

I don't recall reading that - and the way the balls bounce around, it might be difficult to remember if a ball had bounced clockwise - (opposite direction, backwards into the neighboring quadrant) -after it had previously scored.

If it is okay to pick up and score a trak ball that has bounced backwards - It would increase the opportunity for higher scores.

I guess I'd better start re-reading those parts of the rules one more time.

Here is the relevant portion of the rules...
<G12> A TRACKBALL must CROSS a LANE MARKER before it can score for the first time by HURDLING or CROSSING its FINISH LINE.
<G13> A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again.

Another question, does hurdling count as "crossing its finish line" in this instance? It seems that crossing and hurdling are considered two separate actions. If this is true, can you have a robot just past your finish line bump the trackball back to your hurdler and have them re-hurdle the ball? (assuming neither robot crosses the finish line)

[meaubry]

Thanks jediptm for the clarification of G13
We have given some thought to the track ball passing over the overpass and believe that making contact with the overpass (actually rolling over it) is okay - as long as the ball continues to move forward once it brakes the plane of the finish line.
If the ball should not continue forward and instead come to rest in one of the openings - it would no longer be considered as passing over the over pass - and subsequently not get the points associated with hurdling.
It might however still qualify for the 12 points at the end of the match.

I'm sure the question will be asked on the FIRST site soon - and then we'll know for sure.

Mike

[EricRobodox]

Im a little bit confused here. Because if you can touch the ball while hurdling, would you still get the points if you threw the ball, it passed the over pass and the finish line, but then happens to bounce off you after you had crossed the line. I would think the rule was created so you have to let it hit the ground after the hurdle, or another robot; this way no robot can just continuously hold the trackball.

I just hope they notice that a lot of teams will hurdle the ball, drive forward, and then realize that the ball they threw is going to land on top of themselves, making the hurdle invalid, even though it is obvious their intention was not to catch the ball but merely cross the line.

[Sunshine]

I just hope they notice that a lot of teams will hurdle the ball, drive forward, and then realize that the ball they threw is going to land on top of themselves, making the hurdle invalid, even though it is obvious their intention was not to catch the ball but merely cross the line.

I believe you are correct. This would be invalid. I'd say that they are trying to prevent teams from catching their own ball and taking it around the track. Not much team work in that.

[ALIBI]

Thanks jediptm for the clarification of G13
We have given some thought to the track ball passing over the overpass and believe that making contact with the overpass (actually rolling over it) is okay - as long as the ball continues to move forward once it brakes the plane of the finish line.
If the ball should not continue forward and instead come to rest in one of the openings - it would no longer be considered as passing over the over pass - and subsequently not get the points associated with hurdling.
It might however still qualify for the 12 points at the end of the match.

I'm sure the question will be asked on the FIRST site soon - and then we'll know for sure.

Mike

Are you saying that if the ball comes to rest (for that matter even if it was moving/rolling all the time it could still break the plane) and the the bottom of the ball is slightly below the bar of the overpass it can no longer be considered as passing over because at one point part of the ball was technically below the plane (EDIT: horizontal) of the overpass?

In the definiiton of Hurdle it says that a hurlde is when the trackball crosses the alliance finish line, not break the plane of the finish line. In looking at the rules other places (E.g. G22 for one) where crossing is being used this year, it seems as though to cross something you must completely pass/cross the plane that something.

I have been under the impression that the score for a hurdle counts when the trackball goes completely past the finish line (all other conditions saticefied). I do not see in the rules where once it breaks the plane of the finish line it must continue (pass) in one motion to count.

I could see a strategy where a team would place the trackball on the overpass, and then without completely leaving the home stretch, reach under/around and grab the trackball from the other side, lower the arm/trackball close to the ground, drop the trackball for a second (8pts awarded now), grab the trackball and repeat (do a lap).

[GaryVoshol]

Thanks jediptm for the clarification of G13
We have given some thought to the track ball passing over the overpass and believe that making contact with the overpass (actually rolling over it) is okay - as long as the ball continues to move forward once it brakes the plane of the finish line.
If the ball should not continue forward and instead come to rest in one of the openings - it would no longer be considered as passing over the over pass - and subsequently not get the points associated with hurdling.
It might however still qualify for the 12 points at the end of the match.

I'm sure the question will be asked on the FIRST site soon - and then we'll know for sure.

Mike

Are you saying that if the ball comes to rest (for that matter even if it was moving/rolling all the time it could still break the plane) and the the bottom of the ball is slightly below the bar of the overpass it can no longer be considered as passing over because at one point part of the ball was technically below the plane (EDIT: horizontal) of the overpass?

In the definiiton of Hurdle it says that a hurlde is when the trackball crosses the alliance finish line, not break the plane of the finish line. In looking at the rules other places (E.g. G22 for one) where crossing is being used this year, it seems as though to cross something you must completely pass/cross the plane that something.

I have been under the impression that the score for a hurdle counts when the trackball goes completely past the finish line (all other conditions saticefied). I do not see in the rules where once it breaks the plane of the finish line it must continue (pass) in one motion to count.

I could see a strategy where a team would place the trackball on the overpass, and then without completely leaving the home stretch, reach under/around and grab the trackball from the other side, lower the arm/trackball close to the ground, drop the trackball for a second (8pts awarded now), grab the trackball and repeat (do a lap).

We need to go back to the definitions.

HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

HURDLING: The act of completing a HURDLE. To be considered in the process of HURDLING, the ROBOT must:

be in its own HOME STRETCH, and
be in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, and
be moving toward the OVERPASS and/or elevating the TRACKBALL so that the top of the TRACKBALL is higher than the LANE DIVIDER.

Since HURDLING is the act of completing a HURDLE, the 3 conditions in the list must be met. If the robot gives up possession during the process, by setting the ball on the overpass and then grabbing it again from the other side, it's not a HURDLE. If the robot sets the ball on the overpass and leaves it there for another robot to knock off, it's not a hurdle.

But that's just my opinion - it should be clarified once Q&A opens. Because this brings up another possible problem. Does possession have to be maintained until the ball is completely over the line?

[meaubry]

I guess clarification is needed relative to "passing above the overpass".

It doesn't say "above, without touching", and it doesn't say "over, without touching". It just says above the overpass.

I believe the use of "above" is meant to differentiate from the other means of scoring - "below" the overpass.

It all cases the ball must "cross" the finish line - meaning not stop, or partially cross the line - it means entirely cross the line.

What I was getting at is, assuming the ball can touch the overpass structure, the ball could momentarily get held up and settle in one of the openings instead of continuing to roll or bounce across the finish line (all in one motion). I was simply stating that in order to clearly define it, if the ball breaks the plane of the finish line and continues to move such that it crosses the finish line, I would assume it will be counted as "hurdling" the over pass. A ball that starts across and then doesn't make it all the way across before stopping or going in a different non-forward direction, would not have "crossed" the finish line - therefore, it would not be awarded "hurdling" points.

Again - this is just my opinion and I am anxiously waiting for clarification.
As I said, before - If someone asks, this will be officially explained in the Q&A by FIRST.

Mike