Flag, Flag Holder vs Trackballs

[Swampdude]

It happened to us last year, and that pesky thing has done it again. Has anyone been cornered into a particular type of design because of that flag holder? With a 40" ball wanting to pass through your 28" wide design envelope, it seems you're stuck having to run parallel with it (the flag holder), or the ball can't pass any less than a 75" radius from the ground above your design envelope.... I thought I'd point that out before teams got to far into their designs. see <R17>.... :(

Those flags were flying everywhere last year....

[Daniel Bathgate]

Ah yes. The flag holder. That little thing sure causes a lot of grief. We almost couldn't compete last year because there was no way to make our flag holder technically high enough without getting in the way of our ramp and platform design. We shredded the pole of a flag at one point as well. And with the importance of the lap counter and all the flying trackballs this year, you certainly want a sturdy flag holder. Thanks for pointing that out!

[dtengineering]

It would have been interesting if they had ditched the flag holder and simply required teams to show up with two different sets of bumpers... one red, one blue.

That would have done a better job of indicating alliances, encouraged fast-change bumper design (even more so than already encouraged) and allowed more space for handling this gianormous ball.

Mind you, at least we're all working to the same parameters... and the different coloured bumpers wouldn't make provisions for the lane counter, which will matter, I think.

J

[rfolea]

We are concerned that the impact of the hurdled Trackball will smash both the PVC pipe and flag pole, leaving shards to puncture trackballs.

.. and smash the lap counter ...

Anyone else see this as a problem?

[Koko Ed]

We are concerned that the impact of the hurdled Trackball will smash both the PVC pipe and flag pole, leaving shards to puncture trackballs.

.. and smash the lap counter ...

Anyone else see this as a problem?

I'd be more worried about the Tackball smashing the robot.

[team1203 4life]

Ah yes. The flag holder. That little thing sure causes a lot of grief. We almost couldn't compete last year because there was no way to make our flag holder technically high enough without getting in the way of our ramp and platform design. We shredded the pole of a flag at one point as well. And with the importance of the lap counter and all the flying trackballs this year, you certainly want a sturdy flag holder. Thanks for pointing that out!

we had the same problem last year especially since our ramp was completly colapsable

[MrForbes]

It's good to see some teams have learned a valuable lesson from last year's experience, and are taking the flag holder into account at the very beginning of build season, instead of waiting till the last day (like we did last year!)

[whytheheckme]

I hope that I'm not the only one to think this, but:

THE FLAG HOLDER IS EVIL!

It became a major obstacle last year with our ramp design, and could most certainly be a problem with this year's design.

What ever happened to the changeable color dome lights? Or even the flashing color LED reflector thingys? The flag constantly falls out, and the holder is in the way...

Mk thats my 2.5 cents.

Jacob

[daftpunk79]

I hope that I'm not the only one to think this, but:

THE FLAG HOLDER IS EVIL!

It became a major obstacle last year with our ramp design, and could most certainly be a problem with this year's design.

What ever happened to the changeable color dome lights? Or even the flashing color LED reflector thingys? The flag constantly falls out, and the holder is in the way...

Mk thats my 2.5 cents.

Jacob

poke it with a stick and see if it runs away...if not just deal with it i guess.

[Wayne Doenges]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the lap counter that you are required to carry during each match. From what I've read it will be attached to the flag holder 5' above the ground.
Lose flag holder and your laps won't count any more :ahh:

[jdejoannis]

This is an excellent point. I suspect we are going to see a lot of flag loss and malfunctioning lap counters - especially considering how high the trackballs bounce.

But if you lose your lapcounter, don't they have to give you the points manually?

/Jason

[Jimmy Nichols]

It would have been interesting if they had ditched the flag holder and simply required teams to show up with two different sets of bumpers... one red, one blue.

That would have done a better job of indicating alliances, encouraged fast-change bumper design (even more so than already encouraged) and allowed more space for handling this gianormous ball.

Mind you, at least we're all working to the same parameters... and the different coloured bumpers wouldn't make provisions for the lane counter, which will matter, I think.

J

That is what we did last year. It wasn't that bad, only took about 5 minutes to change bumpers. This year we are designing it to be faster. We aren't sure where we are going to place the ugly stick at this year.

[Swampdude]

I don't like to be a complainer, especially after they put all that energy into coming up with all those rules and what not. But that flag thing is dangerous and proved not to work last year. Those things were flying like arrows all over the place last year. But now that the holder is so much taller, and the bots will be going faster, those things will get sprung out of the pipes with much more energy. If they're bent on keeping those things, then they should be retained in the holder with some kind of O-Ring. But without a mechanical lock on it, I don't think that will even help. Those giant 40" balls will be whipping everywhere, and these flag poles are huge. Safety glasses if ever are a really big deal. We saw those flags spear into people all the time.

[Alan Anderson]

If they're bent on keeping those things, then they should be retained in the holder with some kind of O-Ring.

The definition of the FLAG says that is exactly what will be done.

...The flagpole will run through a rubber stopper, which will be sized to fit in the top of the flag holder (as specified in Rule <R17>). The purpose of the stopper is to help prevent the flag from becoming dislodged from the flag holder during the MATCH.

[chapmatr]

Wouldn't that leave the only option to the flag snapping? From 6 1/2' in the air, we dropped the ball on an empty coke can...and it was flattened. Instantly. :ahh:

Plus, our robot design was going to be short...but this reminded me of the 5' lap counter...gosh darn the design committee.

[Steve W]

As has been stated many times: build the robot to be robust. That includes a flag holder.

As for will the laps be counted IF the counter is removed by accident, The only way to know the exact laps would be to count manually as they did the balls in the lower goals a few years ago. Then again there was arguments that the people counting miss counted and made mistakes. I guess there is no perfect solution just a best one.

[jrdude]

I'd be more worried about the Tackball smashing the robot.

i am somewhat worried about this

[chapmatr]

As has been stated many times: build the robot to be robust. That includes a flag holder.

As for will the laps be counted IF the counter is removed by accident, The only way to know the exact laps would be to count manually as they did the balls in the lower goals a few years ago. Then again there was arguments that the people counting miss counted and made mistakes. I guess there is no perfect solution just a best one.

Firstly, I wanna say that it's not the holder I was worried about more than the flag.

Second, I assume that counting laps should be easier, considering you can't get more than one lap per second, nevermind 10 at a time like with the Aim High challenge.

[Tetraman]

It would have been interesting if they had ditched the flag holder and simply required teams to show up with two different sets of bumpers... one red, one blue.

That would have done a better job of indicating alliances, encouraged fast-change bumper design (even more so than already encouraged) and allowed more space for handling this gianormous ball.

Mind you, at least we're all working to the same parameters... and the different coloured bumpers wouldn't make provisions for the lane counter, which will matter, I think.

J

This is probably what refs will wish for teams to have. Being able to tell a team's alliance by any fast glance will help them 30 times over in the case something needs to be called.

There should be a petition that calls for teams to design interchangeable colored bumpers for the sake of our refs since this is their toughest game too.

[SprocketGuy]

Does anyone know if it's possible to mount the flag holder at a 45 degree angle. The mount would stay within the allowed dimensions but the flag would stick out the back. This is the only way our team can see mounting the flag without hitting it every launch we make.
Or, are you allowed to put the flag on a spring mount that will bounce out of the way on impact and return to it's rest position?
Thoughts?

[jgannon]

Does anyone know if it's possible to mount the flag holder at a 45 degree angle. The mount would stay within the allowed dimensions but the flag would stick out the back. This is the only way our team can see mounting the flag without hitting it every launch we make.
Or, are you allowed to put the flag on a spring mount that will bounce out of the way on impact and return to it's rest position?
Thoughts?
The flag holder must be permanently mounted to the ROBOT such that when the ROBOT is in any PLAYING CONFIGURATION and the FLAG is in the flag holder, the FLAG is approximately vertical and the top of the FLAG is 75 inches above the floor.
Mounting at an angle doesn't sound legit. The question is what "permanently" is supposed to mean. The picture next to <R17> refers to it as a "hard mount", but that text doesn't actually appear in the rule. 1114 had a flag holder that was able to move last year, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would pass muster this year.

[ALIBI]

With all the trouble that teams have been having keeping their trackballs intact, rules limiting protrusions that could become puncture or impalement hazards, rules requiring radii on corners etc. I just find it ironic that the field personel will be giving us all a spear (Flag) at the begining of a match that must be mounted permanently in an approximatley vertical position. I would like to see the GDC better define "approximately vertical". The +/- five inches from the required 51" height of the top of the flag holder could give you quite a bit of back and forth motion if say the flag holder was secured via a spring from the bottom, much like a bicycle flag, and maintained a height of 56" when vertical. It seems that mounting it with a spring would also make it much less of a puncture hazard for the trackball. I have not done the math, but at the maximum height the flag may also contract the over pass. I am not sure if that would affect the scoring mechanisms ability to read your lap indicator if the indicator was moving around a lot.

[MrForbes]

the design height of the flag of 75" plus the 5" tolerance adds up to 80" which is the design height of the bottom of the overpass.

I think....

[JesseK]

The flags themselves better be made out of titanium or they'll bend/snap when a trackball hit them. Personally I'd rather design the flag pole into the robot such that the flag itself helps shield our robot from a potential trackball impact, but I think most people would agree that the intent is non-GP. So I guess we're just stuck with a roll-cage that goes all the way up to 45-56" ...

[Racer26]

1075 isn't much liking the flag this year... the holder is trivial... Did anyone ever find out from the GDC if a spring loaded flag is acceptable?

[Wayne Doenges]

On our robot (Phoenix) we have the flag mounted on a 12" pivot. 500ms before we fire, the flag moves out of the way. After firing it moves back to its pre-launch position to keep it from being broken by passing robots. In our videos you can see the flag in the launch position. Our programmers didn't have the pivot programmed in yet.
It works great.

[Richard Wallace]

1075 isn't much liking the flag this year... the holder is trivial... Did anyone ever find out from the GDC if a spring loaded flag is acceptable?This was answered by the GDC last week.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=8285

[Racer26]

that Q&A response doesnt really say you cant use a 'spring-loaded' mount, such that when not being impacted by a ball, the holder is vertical.

EDIT: found one that says they want it approximately vertical the entire time... much as it seems silly to me, because to have it rigidly mounted in a vertical position will result in launched trackballs being able to hit it. This may result in the launching/breaking of flags. A spring loaded mount would surely be safer.

[Curt Henderson]

I think the above statement is looking for a grey area of the rule where the Q&A Answer says "can not be".

I believe the rule is very clear, "Must Be" and "in any playing configuration" are very clear terms in our teams view of the rules, hence our decision to mount the flag holder the way we did.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

So far, I have yet to see a flag/flagholder broken by the trackball.