Referee Certification Course

[clydefrog88]

During the kickoff, I remember an online referee certification course being discussed in order to ensure consistancy in each regional. Teams would greatly benefit from having access to this system, in order to understand calls concerning the more subjective areas of the rules.

[GaryVoshol]

Thank you for your confidence.

[Dan Richardson]

even if the refs do have to take the internet coursethers a few problems still

1. anyone can go and pass an internet course
2. there refs they will still be blind just because they are certified dosent mean anything

But its a step in the right direction, most refs are unbiased and very proffesional volunteers. They arguably have the toughest position of any Volunteer and certainly the most scrutinized. They do the best job they can to run a fair and just competition, if it doesn't work out in your favor you have to roll with the punches, eventually it likely will work in your favor.

The certification is an excellent step the right direction. FIRST's goal is always to make sure the same game is played at all Regionals so it is absolutely fair to all teams competing. They have to have a high level of standardization to do this. Only in extreme cases ie. last year's match pairing algorithm do they make significant changes.

Last year there were many cases of referee's just calling or not calling penalties based on their interpretations, and often referee's did not make the right call, it happens every year. Mind you I fully believe in most cases their intentions were good, just their interpretations were inaccurate. Last year I can remember a very specific case where a rule was broken repeatedly and drastically changed the outcome of one of our matches. The penalty flags were thrown but the Head ref over ruled it because he had misinterpreted the rule. When the rules and all updates refering to the rules were brought to his attention, in a respectful manner mind you, he sought clarification from FIRST HQ. We knew that it would not change the outcome of that match but the next day the rule was changed and he quietly apologized to the affected parties. I tell you that takes courage to do, as a Head Ref your ruling is final, whether it be right or wrong, and I promise you they want to get it right.

This taught me a lot about Ref's, they have to be steadfast in their decsision because otherwise the competition ( especially during qualifying ) could go to chaos, but they want to get it right. If they are forced to take a test so that they know how to call each penalty, I believe it will significantly increase accuracy in judgement calls. Some of the best ref's won't get every call right, but they'll get it the next time, and if you harp on a Bad call for a long time your obviously missing the point of this competition.

If you can call about 150 perfect matches in a 2 day period I'm gonna lobby FIRST to suit you up in the ZEBRA stripes and get you to as many competitions as possible.

[Sean Schuff]

Thank you for your confidence.

I'll second that response!

A few things to keep in mind...

If you haven't ever done it you have no idea how difficult reffing can be. I have had the privilege of reffing at IRI (Where the egos come to play!) for the past few years and it is not a simple job. Keeping your eyes on everything that goes on during a match is a challenge in and of itself. Add to that the multiple interpretations of the rules and it makes for a potentially chaotic environment. IRI and Andy Baker have done a great job in making sure the refs do their job well. However, that is just one event.

FIRST has taken a fantastic step in the right direction to make sure all refs across the country and around the world are ON THE SAME PAGE. Having a consistent interpretation of the rules will make for a much more enjoyable experience for all teams. It's the inconsistencies from ref to ref, match to match and event to event that causes the greatest frustration for all involved. The online learning and certification process will help to move toward more consistent calls and rule enforcement. It can only serve to help - it certainly won't hurt.

Hats off to FIRST for moving forward with this!

Sean

[EricH]

2. there refs they will still be blind just because they are certified dosent mean anythingSo volunteer as a ref and get out there! If you think you can do a better job, go for it!

I know enough about reffing to know that I probably couldn't be an FRC ref. FLL and FTC, probably/definitely. FRC, probably not.

[feliks_rosenber]

Being a referee at the FRC matches is not an easy task at all.
I have had an experience being a referee before and I can assure you that it's something that requires a lot from you.

FIRST of all you need a lot of patience to learn all the rules by heart, because when you are out there in a match you can't read the manual. You have to act.Teams won't wait for your decision.Neither will the head referee.
You must rule and fast!

You have to keep your eyes on everything from the beginning till the buzzer.
To make sure nobody touches the joysticks during the autonomous, that everyone stands behind the lines, then keep an eye on the interaction between the players and concurrently see whether robots comply with each and every rule during a match, and so on..
It's a huge responsibility.

Nonetheless, it's fun!

No wonder the night after the off season I had dreams of robots hanging tubes on me...

:D

[Jeff Waegelin]

There is nothing more stressful in FIRST than having to make a judgement call that will affect another team's performance at an event. I've been a referee at various events for the past 5 seasons, and I've even been a Head Referee (at Detroit last year), and on numerous occasions, I've had to make a call based on how I thought the rule should be interpreted. I've been fortunate enough to get it right most of the time, but it was never easy. Anything that FIRST can do to educate its referees on how to make some of the tricky calls will make that process that much easier.

In the end, though, there is always some subjectivity, and us referees are all human, too. We make mistakes, sometimes we don't understand a rule completely, and sometimes we miss things because we were looking the wrong way. Hopefully, though, the more training we can give each referee, the better equipped they will be to make the call, and try to get it right.

[Cory]

I think everyone is being too nice to the refs.

I understand it's a volunteer job, and they are to be commended for taking it on. However, I have been a ref (3 times in 2005 [SVR, Davis, Champs], which to date has been the most difficult game to referee), and I have seen how qualified, or lack thereof referees can be. It is a difficult job, but with a thorough knowledge of the rules, I do not think it is nearly the superhuman effort some make it out to be (unless you are the head ref... then I'm sure it's pretty darn stressful). Beyond one specific instance that occurred during an event I was part of the ref crew at, I never felt like my job was really that difficult, as long as I was paying full attention. The issue is many refs DO NOT know the rules like all of us involved with teams do. Many of them are people who show up on Wednesday, having never seen the game before, or never read the rules before.

In general, there are a lot of good referees. Most do not make egregiously bad calls.

I thought last year in particular there were WAY too many inconsistencies between head referees, to the point where the outcome of the game was being changed, on a regular basis.

I do not feel that just because someone is volunteering their time, ignorance or incompetence should be forgiven. FIRST owes it to the teams, who have paid $4000-6000 to attend an event to make sure the rules will be enforced as written, and to do something about it when they aren't. FIRST the program is not about the robots, but when at the actual competition, it is very much about the robots. I think the referee qualification course is a great step in the right direction, and I look forward to (hopefully) consistent refereeing across the board in 2008.

[RyanN]

Everybody is missing the main topic... Is there a way for us students to take this course to better understand certain rules of this game? We never said anything about the referees being good or bad.

[Steve W]

The biggest slowdown at events are the referees. The match lasts about 2 1/2 minutes with the stoppage. The refs then must take all that they have seen, discuss, debate and decide and get-r-done while the field manager is pushing them. They do this for around 100 matches per weekend. There is the chance that a mistake will be made, it is not done on purpose. I know a great many refs and have had many discussions before, during and after matches. They do their best and try to get it right the first time.

I know that I am one to talk as I get as excited as anyone but we MUST give the refs a break as they are volunteers and are out only to make the program as good as it can be.

[Steve W]

Everybody is missing the main topic... Is there a way for us students to take this course to better understand certain rules of this game? We never said anything about the referees being good or bad.

I would ask that in the Q&A's. I know as an announcer and team member I would like to take the course as well.

[Pirate Jason 35]

I believe this is a good move towards making the FIRST robotics competition a better place. A place where teams could have fun and not worry about the rules being called right on the feild. GOOD JOB FIRST
This comes from personal experience our team (354) knocked out the first seed team in the competition. It was down to the final match and the opposing allience took a cheap shot at our ramp...breaking it. The robot that did it already had a yellow flag and wasnt disqualified. we tried for about 20 seconds to get on the ramp at the end of the match... but we couldnt because our ramp was broken. this cost us the regional.

WE STILL LOVE FINGERLAKES

[team1203 4life]

I'll second that response!

A few things to keep in mind...

If you haven't ever done it you have no idea how difficult reffing can be. I have had the privilege of reffing at IRI (Where the egos come to play!) for the past few years and it is not a simple job. Keeping your eyes on everything that goes on during a match is a challenge in and of itself. Add to that the multiple interpretations of the rules and it makes for a potentially chaotic environment. IRI and Andy Baker have done a great job in making sure the refs do their job well. However, that is just one event.

FIRST has taken a fantastic step in the right direction to make sure all refs across the country and around the world are ON THE SAME PAGE. Having a consistent interpretation of the rules will make for a much more enjoyable experience for all teams. It's the inconsistencies from ref to ref, match to match and event to event that causes the greatest frustration for all involved. The online learning and certification process will help to move toward more consistent calls and rule enforcement. It can only serve to help - it certainly won't hurt.

Hats off to FIRST for moving forward with this!

Sean

i know
i shouldent have posted it
my apologiez to any refs how read my post
and i have been a refere before not for first but for soccer so i know what it is like

[JaneYoung]

When that was announced, I was very pleased. The reason is simple: when the whining and complaining starts, there is documentation in place that supports the refs. They have become certified through the course.

It is very frustrating for me, personally, to read posts that are negative and critical regarding refs and inspectors. This will help.

In my job at a university, I take certification and compliance courses every year that show that I understand the rules of the university and I will comply. It goes in my personnel record.

This is a great way to grow consistency and continuity across the competitions. All the volunteers, including our refs and inspectors, need our support and appreciation, esp. during the tough calls.

Jane

[ALIBI]

Would it be a good idea to internally have your drive "TEAM" members take and pass the test as part of their requirments to be a drive team member? Our fearless leader has been know to write thier own test and use it as part of the judging procedure to determine who makes the drive team and what positions they get.

I certainly hope FIRST makes the test available to non-judges. It would serve to better educate anyone who wants and would probably give a better understanding of what the refs are up against.

[keen101]

I am VERY glad the referees have to do this. It may not help the really stubborn ones, but it has a potential to help.

Last year there was ton's of ramming in the Colorado regional. The ref's did nothing to stop it. ...and only gave out a yellow card after our claw had been damaged. (the only yellow card issued the whole regional)

It was very disappointing, when the ref's would not even enforce the rules.

[GaryVoshol]

and i have been a refere before not for first but for soccer so i know what it is like
I wonder who on the GDC is also a soccer referee. Red and Yellow Cards last year, Impeding this year.

[Travis Hoffman]

This topic brings back MANY memories of 2005 and some posts I made, both good and bad, regarding referee capability and consistency across all events.

I distinctly remember asking/demanding that FIRST and the regional staffs do something ahead of time to better educate and certify that their volunteer referees were knowledgeable of all game rules and prepared to enforce those rules equally at all events. I've read and witnessed many other similar sentiments in the years since then. This effort in 2008 to "standardize" refereeing represents a positive step forward, and I feel we should all put our full support behind FIRST in getting this new program to work. We should also give them time to see if these changes do bring improvement before providing any criticism and feedback, constructive or otherwise.

All that being said, if the "course materials" of this refereeing education were made public, I do believe it could help drive teams better understand what "style" of gameplay is expected by the GDC. It could make referees' jobs even easier as more teams will know how to play the game from the outset.

Now only if we could get some distributable "driver's ed" videos produced by FIRST that demonstrate appropriate and inappropriate robot behaviors relating to the current year's game. A picture is worth a thousand words. I'd guess some teams would love to help out in making these videos prior to the season, but that's quite difficult given the secretive nature of the game design sessions, so it would be up to FIRST and the GDC to arrange for such a thing. If that is too much to put on their plate, then we'll just have to go without such visual aids.

I'm very interested in seeing how this training plays out this year. Good luck to all in making it work! :)

[Sean Schuff]

I wonder who on the GDC is also a soccer referee. Red and Yellow Cards last year, Impeding this year.

I believe the Red and Yellow Cards first appeared at IRI several years ago. I think Andy Baker or one of his compadres came up with the idea. It works very well if you ask me. Something a little more permanent and severe than a point penalty.

[pyroslev]

This topic brings back MANY memories of 2005 and some posts I made, both good and bad, regarding referee capability and consistency across all events.

Yeah 2005 was the year for that sort of thing.

I certainly hope the drive teams can have access to the course's content. It may lead to more questioning of the rules or less but it will be beneficial all around. Then again you just read the rules a few dozen times over.

[Bharat Nain]

I feel this is a good step towards better refereeing. The results of this implementation will obviously be seen during the season. Contrary to what many people say, FIRST is a lot about the game. It is the glue and the referee's are a very important portion of FIRST. We have seen the number of debates that have come up over the years from this topic. I am overall glad to see this.