Caution Flags in Overdrive

[Travis Hoffman]

This idea is inspired by the discussion in the "defense...it's still here" thread regarding robots pushing fallen robots out of the way so they no longer impede the progress of those who remain upright. The intent of this idea - to permit humans an opportunity to safely clear the field mid-match with lesser risk of robot damage, and to make the remaining balance of the match more interesting for all involved. This suggestion obviously parallels the safety methods officials employ at actual races.

OK, so what if FIRST actually empowered the referees to wave a single discretionary "yellow caution flag" or, more likely, the "red stop flag" once during any one match? Drivers would have to stop (or field control would pause the match - not sure if this could be done in the middle of teleop) and this would permit the crew to clear the field of any robotic "debris" - or at least move it gently to the side. Then there would be no talk of pushing fallen robots, there would still be passing lanes, and the match could continue in more interesting fashion. You'd be sacrificing a bit of delay in exchange for a more exciting match conclusion, just like NASCAR.

I would hope the instances of fallen robots blocking a good portion of the lane are few and far between, so any caution flag delays such as these would not adversely impact the overall schedule of the competition.

By the way, it would be totally fitting if the head ref or a volunteer were given a white flag to wave to indicate the last 15 seconds of the match and a checkered flag to wave at match end. You just know some regional director's young son or daughter would enjoy that task - you can never have enough "awwwwww" moments in FIRST!

Heck, you could even make the penalty flags "black flags" with red or blue stripes to indicate the guilty alliance - if you're gonna go all out with the racing theme, then go all out!

[ubergeek5075]

What about the blue flag instead of that "bump-to-pass"?

[jgannon]

(or field control would pause the match - not sure if this could be done in the middle of teleop)
This was doable with last year's field control software... it was employed a few times when spider feet were knocked off the rack mid-match.
You'd be sacrificing a bit of delay in exchange for a more exciting match conclusion, just like NASCAR.
Agreed. This sounds like a proposal that will both benefit game play and prevent damage to robots. I'm not sure how to petition FIRST with this idea at this point in the game, but I'd be pleased to see it happen.

[GaryVoshol]

And here I thought this thread was going to be about how the yellow caution flags were going to be attached to your robot. The flag holder is filled by a stopper, remember.

I'm not sure a time-out (which is essentially what you are asking for) is the best idea or not. It does have possibilities, but I'd rather think about how it might be misused or abused before being in favor of it.

[jgannon]

I'm not sure a time-out (which is essentially what you are asking for) is the best idea or not. It does have possibilities, but I'd rather think about how it might be misused or abused before being in favor of it.
I'm not sure I understand how (or why) you would expect the referees to abuse this.

[Illegalsocks]

I think its a good idea, especially considering this years game.

I would hope the instances of fallen robots blocking a good portion of the lane are few and far between, so any caution flag delays such as these would not adversely impact the overall schedule of the competition.

And like you said, its not like it will cause a giant match back-ups.

[GaryVoshol]

I'm not sure a time-out (which is essentially what you are asking for) is the best idea or not. It does have possibilities, but I'd rather think about how it might be misused or abused before being in favor of it.

I'm not sure I understand how (or why) you would expect the referees to abuse this.

That's not what I meant. I'm just wary of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[Travis Hoffman]

That's not what I meant. I'm just wary of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

I would think this would only be used when the field is completely blocked. You must fear that some team may be harmed strategically if trying to perform a task such as hurdling when the caution stoppage occurred.

I'd guess the action would have to dwindle down pretty low pretty fast once the track had been blocked - most refs could then discern when it's ok to wave the yellow flag.

[Pavan Dave]

It would make the schedule a lot more 'iffy' that it might already be. Some regionals are probably going to be super tight when it comes to time already so I think that it may not be possible due to how many times it could potentially happen.

The way that they would potentially stop all the robots is just how they stop them at the end of the match, with some master "E-STOP" deal under lock and key...

I think it would be a great idea, but its not plausible to do this because of time constraints because in a worst case situation it might happen every - every other match.

Pavan.

[chapmatr]

It's a good idea, but with a game such as this it may be annoying. A lot of robots will be herding/hurdling when they have to stop, so you may lose the ball you were trying to score in the process. Plus, the refs would have to wait until in-air balls landed, for safety reasons. I think it could become a good addition to the game, overall, though.

[Travis Hoffman]

I think it would be a great idea, but its not plausible to do this because of time constraints because in a worst case situation it might happen every - every other match.

Pavan.

Fully blocked lanes from tipped, fully extended robots every other match? Talk about carnage. Drive safely, children.

[The Lucas]

This was doable with last year's field control software... it was employed a few times when spider feet were knocked off the rack mid-match.


Last year at Philly, they stopped a match because a robot was smoking. It must have been motor smoke not the dreaded magic smoke (from an electrical fire) :D, because it stopped shorty after the bots were disabled.

Then suddenly, they quickly announced something like "OK, we are starting up again, 3, 2, 1, GO!!!!!" and quickly resumed the match. Everyone, including the drivers, seemed surprised. The match finished without any further problems. That's how I remember the match. If anyone, like George (play-by-play) or Wayne (MC), has any insight into exactly what happened then please add it because it is an interesting case.

This incident is similar to the proposed caution flag idea, allowing a timeout for a malfunctioning and potentially unsafe robot. The robot was not moved during the timeout, simply allowed to cool down. It would be possible for a team to remove their tipped robot during a similar timeout. The caution flags could make the process less confusing than that incident. In the interest of time and consistency, I think this timeout should only be used in the case where:
(1) the tipped bot is violating the 80" rule (ref signaled the penalty)
AND
(2) the team has hit the E-STOP (indicating they are not trying to right themselves)

[galewind]

if its any consolation, I believe that if they used the match timing algorithms from prior years, it could allocate for a few "field mess" time-outs because of the smaller amount of time it should theoretically take to reset the field.