2007 CIM's in 2008? [Archive]

T3_1565

16-01-2008, 12:40

Hey, we are planning on using 4 CIM motors this year on our robot, and as of right now we are using the 2007 cims for testing.

We are wondering wether or not we can use these motors when the bot is done, or do we have to buy new ones?? We don't have much money, so if we don't need to buy them then it would be great.

I looked through the rules and can not find anything saying you can't use the 2007 motors, and as far as I can tell they are COT items are they not?

wilsonmw04

16-01-2008, 12:52

I know it's in the rules and i am paraphrasing here: you may use parts out of last year's KOP only if they are an exact match to what is in this years KOP and only for spare parts.

In your case, you would have to buy two more to use on your robot but you could use your old ones if the motors died on you. I would read the "robot" section of the rules to double check.

Kat Kononov

16-01-2008, 12:57

<R58> Motors, pumps, and, Robot Controllers from previous robots shall not be used in addition to those provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts. They may be used as direct one-to-one SPARE PARTS for those provided if the provided part fails or is damaged. They can only be used if they are identical to the part being replaced.
...
<R59> Additional motors specifically permitted on 2008 FRC ROBOTS include:
• All motors, actuators, and servos provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts,
• HITEC HS-322HD servos,
• FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC) servos (Innovation First part number 276-2162),
• FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC) motors (Innovation First part number 276-2163),
• One or two additional 2-1/2” CIM motors (part #FR801-001 and/or M4-R0062-12 in addition to those provided in the Kit Of Parts. This means that up to four, and no more, 2-1/2” CIM motors can be used on the ROBOT.

I think these are the rules associated with your question.

EricH

16-01-2008, 12:58

I know it's in the rules and i am paraphrasing here: you may use parts out of last year's KOP only if they are and exact match to what is in this years KOP and only for spare parts.

In your case, you would have to buy two more to use on your robot but you could use your old ones if the motors died on you. I would read the "robot" section of the rules to double check.I think you should ask Q&A. More than one team is affected here. Because the CIMs are custom for FIRST (I think), it would seem like they can't be used, except that they don't change year to year.

Also, if a part (unlimited allowed) is KOP but is also COTS, and you buy it as a COTS, would it count as kit or COTS? I would say COTS.

jgannon

16-01-2008, 12:59

I don't think you can use 2007 CIMs because they're not the same as the 2008 CIMs.
In what way are this year's CIMs different from last year's?

Kat Kononov

16-01-2008, 13:01

Last year they was a 3" CIM and two 2.5" CIMs and this year there are only the two 2.5" CIMs.

Gamer930

16-01-2008, 13:04

Last year they were 3" CIMs and now they are 2.5" CIMs.
There was both 3" and 2.5" CIM's last year. . . this year only the 2.5"

Kat Kononov

16-01-2008, 13:10

hmm oops never mind. last year there was a 3" CIM and two 2.5" CIMs. This year there are only the two 2.5" CIMs. I'm sorry for confusing everyone.

GaryVoshol

16-01-2008, 13:11

In what way are this year's CIMs different from last year's?

Last year they were 3" CIMs and now they are 2.5" CIMs.

Last year there were 2 sizes of CIMS, this year only 1. You can't use the 3" (the minibike motor) this year because they were not COTS, they were supplied only as part of the kit on a one-time basis. You or anyone else can buy a 2.5" from IFI.

While you could read into <R58> that no motors from previous years can be used except as spares, the text in <R59> says that up to two 2.5" CIM motors may be used in addition to those in the KoP. It doesn't say that these two motors must be newly purchased. (They will have to be treated as purchases in your bill of material accounting.)

Ben Piecuch

16-01-2008, 13:12

All of the 2.5" CIM's (with the keyed shaft, not the funky splined shaft) are the same p/n, FR801-001. Therefore, the motors are identical and can be used.

We did thorough research on the history of the FR801-001 part number last year. We found that the 2.5" CIM's DID have a shaft change (fully keyed to partially keyed) but the part number stayed the same FR801-001. Therefore, as the rules stated, we were allowed to use them.

The first year of the 2.5" CIM (2002 I believe) had a funky splined shaft that mated up with a sintered bronze adapter gear. Those specific 2.5" CIM motors did not have the FR801-001 p/n on them, and are no longer legal. (Not that I'd ever want to adapt to it again...)

*As always, the answers here on CD are not official, and the only official answers can be found on the Q&A forum. However, I would bet my robot on it that the motors are legal...*

Bengineer

EricH

16-01-2008, 13:22

*As always, the answers here on CD are not official, and the only official answers can be found on the Q&A forum. However, I would bet my robot on it that the motors are legal...*I took a look a few minutes ago. GDC simply pointed to some of the motor rules without giving a clear answer one way or the other.

I'm with you though, due to precedent. (Admittedly, previous years' rules do not apply this year.)

AdamHeard

16-01-2008, 13:29

I'd say, even if the wording makes them illegal. Due to intent of the rule, they are probably legal and the wording will be updated.

Al Skierkiewicz

16-01-2008, 14:13

The rules in Rev B
<R58> Motors, pumps, and, Robot Controllers from previous robots shall not be used in addition to
those provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts. They may be used as direct one-to-one SPARE
PARTS for those provided if the provided part fails or is damaged. They can only be used if
they are identical to the part being replaced.

<R59> Additional motors specifically permitted on 2008 FRC ROBOTS include:
 All motors, actuators, and servos provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts,
 One or two additional 2-1/2” CIM motors (part #FR801-001 and/or M4-R0062-12 in addition
to those provided in the Kit Of Parts. This means that up to four, and no more, 2-1/2” CIM motors can be used on the ROBOT.

In the true interpretation of the rules, last year's motors can only be used as spares for the identical motors supplied in the KOP. I highly recommend you ask the question of the Q&A. In my opinion, there is no advantage to your team by using last year's motors to fill out a four motor design and therefore could be allowed. The financial constraint is a valid issue. The GDC is the final say on this.

IndySam

16-01-2008, 14:37

I'm sure you can use last years 2.5 CIMs this year.

We have to look at the intent of this rule. It is to stop you from using prior year motors that are not in this years kit not from using last years parts that are identical. As long as you account for the costs of the motors.

I am not in anyway connected to the GDC but I'll bet you all dozen donuts that this will be their ruling.

Arkorobotics

16-01-2008, 16:30

I don't mean to change the subject, but would Sprockets from previous years that came in the KOP count as COTS? (Call me a n00b, but I can't quite remember what a COTS is..)

EricH

16-01-2008, 16:41

I don't mean to change the subject, but would Sprockets from previous years that came in the KOP count as COTS? (Call me a n00b, but I can't quite remember what a COTS is..)
COTS=Commercial Off-The-Shelf

I would say if you can find them in McMaster, IFI, AndyMark, MSC, etc., then you can use them. If not, get the COTS version and customize.

Herodotus

16-01-2008, 18:11

I think the intent of the rule might simply be for you to not rip motors off of your old robots and use those, maybe just so you don't use used motors or something. I don't know. But, for instance, we have two old(1 from 06 1 from 07 I believe), but unused 2.5 cim motors that we are using on this year's drive. I'll have keep an eye on this rule to see what's up. It seems absolutely ridiculous to prevent use of an old, but identical part. The CIMs are identical in every way to the 2008 ones, I don't see why we could use them. This organization is expensive enough as it is. :p

ahecht

16-01-2008, 20:47

The rules in Rev B
<R58> Motors, pumps, and, Robot Controllers from previous robots shall not be used in addition to
those provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts. They may be used as direct one-to-one SPARE
PARTS for those provided if the provided part fails or is damaged. They can only be used if
they are identical to the part being replaced.

<R59> Additional motors specifically permitted on 2008 FRC ROBOTS include:
 All motors, actuators, and servos provided in the 2008 Kit Of Parts,
 One or two additional 2-1/2” CIM motors (part #FR801-001 and/or M4-R0062-12 in addition
to those provided in the Kit Of Parts. This means that up to four, and no more, 2-1/2” CIM motors can be used on the ROBOT.

What that tells me is that you can use last year's CIM motors IF AND ONLY IF you did not use them on last year's robot.

T3_1565

16-01-2008, 22:18

thank you everyone for the info, as far as I can tell, I will have to check the Q and A to be sure, but it seems like we can use them, and we will have to price them out on our bill of materials!

Thanks again!

Arkorobotics

17-01-2008, 02:20

I would hate to go off subject again, but would Skyway 8" wheels be allowed? Since they are technically COTS.. Side note: If they are allowed where can I get those plastic hubs that connect to the wheel and have 6 open holes to mount with.

Al Skierkiewicz

17-01-2008, 07:42

What that tells me is that you can use last year's CIM motors IF AND ONLY IF you did not use them on last year's robot.

I think that is a stretch. The rule says you can use them, even if they were on the robot last year, as a replacment only.

zuckie13

17-01-2008, 09:47

I think the rules are being read into a little too deeply. There will not be an issue of where/when the motors come from, as long as the part numbers match the rules, and you account for the two additional ones in your cost accounting using the current cost of a new CIM motor. You never have to actually purchase an additional part for your robot (i.e. can use parts your team currently has), but any part you use has to be commercially available to any team (obviously, these motors are), meet any rules for allowed parts, and has to be cost accounted for.

Justin M.

17-01-2008, 13:49

You can use them on your robot as long as you include them in the total cost of the robot.

EricH

17-01-2008, 15:40

There was a similar question re: the Victors and spikes. I would say that the ruling on CIMs would be similar, but someone needs to ask!

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?p=13307 (http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?p=13307#post13307)